Transcription complète de Episode 75: “Live Like Somebody Is Learning: The Power of Character-Centered Leadership” with Mike Park

bio. 00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:05.519 You know, uh I started as an Army intelligence officer out of college, and then I spent a big part of my career in business, including leading large retail operations. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:13.199 I became an entrepreneur, and somehow I ended up running a nonprofit devoted to character education. 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:19.680 Um, but when I look backward, it doesn't feel really as disconnected as it appears. 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:25.040 Uh the common denominator has always been really good people. 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:32.319 You know, the Army taught me very early that leadership is a responsibility, not a title. 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:41.279 Forfeit America taught me that culture will eventually overwhelm strategy if you don't pay attention to it. 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:51.920 My time as an entrepreneur taught me that the humility because the marketplace doesn't particularly care how brilliant you think your idea is. 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:52.879 Right. 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:57.199 And character education kind of brought all those lessons together. 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:05.279 I sometimes describe myself as a blue-collar mutt executive who've wandered into the academic world of character. 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:11.199 I am fortunate to be surrounded by some extraordinarily accomplished scholars. 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:15.120 And I'm definitely the kitchen sink researcher in that problem. 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.160 But I bring something different, I think, to the conversation. 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:23.360 You know, I've watched character play out in organizations for more than four decades. 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:33.759 And whether you're talking about a platoon, a Fortune 500 company, a small business, a school district, nonprofit, people want remarkably similar things. 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:35.759 They want to belong, right? 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:37.519 They want to contribute. 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:44.720 They want to know that what they're doing matters and they want to trust the people they're following. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:51.120 And I believe in all of that character is the foundation to those things. 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:52.560 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:57.600 Character is the foundation to all those things, including engagement with the people you're working with and you're leading. 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:03.920 And you know, Mike, both of us know from military service that it's easy to talk about values when nothing particularly important is at stake. 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:10.639 It's much harder when you're tired, afraid, under pressure, responsible for other people, or facing two competing goods. 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:16.399 When did character stop being an abstract idea for you and become something you understood as essential to leadership? 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:18.079 That's a great question. 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:22.879 And I'll say probably long before I had the language to describe it. 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:26.319 The Army certainly accelerated it. 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:33.040 You know, when you're a young officer, you realize pretty quickly that rank may give you authority, but it doesn't give you trust. 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:34.959 And you have to earn that. 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:37.920 And people watch everything. 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:43.839 They watch what you do when you're tired, they watch whether you take responsibility when something goes wrong. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:58.560 Uh, they watch whether you give somebody else credit when something goes right, and they especially watch whether the values talk about when things are easy survive when things become difficult. 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:02.079 That's when character for me always becomes real. 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.399 Kind of later in business, I saw very much the same thing. 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:21.680 You can put values on a wall, you can put them on the back of an employee badge, but culture is created by the behaviors an organization actually rewards, tolerates, celebrates, and models. 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:28.480 I become convinced that character is not primarily revealed in the extraordinary moments. 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.839 It's built and revealed in the ordinary ones. 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:32.480 Yeah. 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:45.440 And then when the extraordinary moments come, you usually don't suddenly become courageous, honest, compassionate, and responsible, as you well know, being a combat veteran and having experienced that yourself. 00:08:45.759 --> 00:09:03.919 Uh you tend to fall back on what you've practiced becoming, which has been great and uh as a great piece to understand for me, and certainly I know for you as an accomplished combat military leader, those same things have applied. 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.320 So yeah, no, that's very true. 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:08.960 And you know, it's really great to have this conversation with you. 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:10.799 You know, we've we've known each other a long time. 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:18.159 You've came up to West Point and you've lectured there for me, and you and your beautiful wife even stayed with Claire and I, which was really fascinating. 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:28.320 You and I first had this really interesting connection through someone who's profoundly influenced both of our journeys in character education, our mutual friend Professor Marvin Berkowitz. 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.559 And I know Marvin has been much more than an academic colleague to you, he's been an important mentor. 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:37.919 What has Marvin taught you, not simply about character education, but about being a person of character? 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:39.519 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:42.639 I long affectionately called him kind of Dr. 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:43.120 B. 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:47.600 Uh, we've

often talked about how he and I kind of found this commonality. 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:56.720 I think when we were raising uh our sons uh shared some similar struggles that we as fathers were working through with our boys. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.279 That kind of brought us together, certainly this work and questions I had around it. 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:18.080 I also think him being the HH Corps uh endowed professor of character at the Air Force Academy gave him an incredible appreciation for what the military uh does for men and women who serve and those individuals. 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:29.039 So I think I got a little bit of a leg up because I was a veteran, certainly not because I barely got through uh college, but he he has had an enormous influence on me. 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:35.919 And I don't think the most important thing I've learned from Marvin has come from a book or a lecture. 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:38.159 I've learned it from watching the guy. 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:39.279 You know, Dr. 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:48.480 B is one of the most accomplished people in this field, but he remains often curious and he'll challenge you, but he'll also listen to you. 00:10:48.639 --> 00:11:00.559 And he has this kind of wonderful, unique ability to take the research incredibly seriously without ever forgetting that we're talking about real human beings. 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.000 And I love that part of his ability to move back and forth. 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:05.039 And one of the things Dr. 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:09.919 B helped me understand is that character formation is fundamentally relational. 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:14.159 And this was interesting for me to start to think about this in our relationship together. 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:19.279 We don't become people of character by reading a definition of integrity, right? 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:22.960 We become people of character because someone shows us integrity. 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:30.559 Somebody expects something from us, somebody gives us an opportunity to practice it, and somebody holds us accountable. 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:32.720 And he's always done that for me. 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:35.759 Uh, and that somebody believes we can become better. 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:36.879 And I think Dr. 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:38.559 B lives that. 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:43.120 Uh, and he's also taught me that humility and expertise aren't opposites. 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:46.080 Uh, and and not many people would put humility and Dr. 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.120 B kind of in the same uh uh sentence. 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:53.200 But in this respect, it's very true. 00:11:53.440 --> 00:12:03.120 As a uh storied academic, with him, sometimes the more you know, uh the more comfortable you should become saying, I don't know, let's figure that out. 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:11.600 And that inquisitiveness he had also is something that's been really important to me as a virtue, is to remain that. 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.639 That's been a really valuable lesson to me from him in particular. 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:18.639 Yeah, he's an amazing guy. 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:20.799 Grateful that he connected us. 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:34.320 This episode of the Flourishing Leaders Podcast is brought to you by the Institute for Character and Leadership at Fairley Dickinson University. 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:43.039 We help organizations build stronger cultures, wiser leaders, and teams grounded in trust, accountability, and human flourishing. 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:49.279 Because the future belongs not only to the most efficient organizations, but to the most human ones. 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:55.039 Learn more at FDU.edu forward slash ICL. 00:13:02.532 --> 00:13:07.491 You've now spent years working directly for schools, educators, principals, and communities. 00:13:07.652 --> 00:13:13.251 One misconception I encounter is the idea that character education is something we can simply add to a school. 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:24.080 A curriculum, a poster campaign, you referenced this earlier, the army, like values posted on a wall in the back of a piece of paper, the virtue of the month, or some other initiative competing for time. 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:29.120 What separates genuine character formation from simply having a character program? 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:34.320 Yeah, that that that's the million-dollar question, I think, in doing this work. 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:39.759 Uh and and this this may be one of the most important distinctions in our work. 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:44.960 You know, character education isn't something you do to kids. 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:53.279 Uh whether you're an educator, a parent, it's not something you do to your spouse, your children, your students, your employees. 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:54.960 It isn't a poster. 00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:02.559 It isn't the virtue word of the month, it isn't a 30-minute lesson on a Tuesday afternoon. 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:07.600 Those things can certainly support the work, but they are not the work. 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:15.759 Genuine character formation becomes part of what I like to call the operating system of a school. 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.399 How does the principal lead? 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.279 Uh, how do teachers treat students? 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.240 How do students treat one another? 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.320 And how are decisions made? 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.000 Is there any in power? 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.440 What happens when someone makes a mistake? 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:36.799 And what gets celebrated and what behaviors are tolerated? 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:44.720 Another one is do students have meaningful opportunities to practice responsibility, service, honesty, empathy, and courage? 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:50.320 That's why the 11 principles I think have endured both nationally and internationally. 00:14:50.480 -->

00:14:58.480 They aren't prescribing one curriculum or one program to help schools think comprehensively about culture and character. 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:12.639 And even though character.org is the author of the 11 principles, schools use multiple ways to manage that framework in their schools from all kinds of practitioner services, which is wonderful. 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:17.519 We sometimes use the phrase caught, taught, and sought. 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:22.159 Um character is really caught from people around us. 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.360 And it can and should be intentionally taught. 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:34.000 And young people need opportunities to seek it, to practice it, wrestle with it, grapple with it, make mistakes, and ultimately own it. 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:48.960 When all three of those things happen, you you begin moving from a character program to a culture of character, essentially the operating system of a school or your family, or your business, uh, or your team. 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.639 So that's how we make that distinction. 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:58.720 I love that you brought up that uh character education isn't something adults do to kids, right? 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:07.200 One thing I've become increasingly convinced of is that we can't seriously talk about forming young people's character without talking about the character of the adults that's around them. 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.480 Teachers and leaders don't simply teach characters, they model it. 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:11.919 You reference that as well. 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.480 How important is adult character formation to the work you do at Character Plus? 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.679 Yeah, it's uh it's huge. 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:22.720 In fact, you might could say it's everything. 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:34.879 Uh this is always the chicken or the egg with uh character formation, the adult culture setting up uh the culture and climate led by adults so others can flourish under that. 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:42.320 But also, if you don't exist in those kinds of uh cultures, what do you do as an individual that from the bottom could influence to the top? 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:48.080 But but I think adult character formation is is essentially everything. 00:16:48.320 --> 00:17:04.079 There's a phrase I often think about as it applies to me in particular in the role that I feel very blessed to serve in here at CharacterPlus and Character.org is that your character may be someone else's greatest lesson. 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.559 And think about the responsibility contained in that sentence. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:10.160 I think about it often. 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:21.680 Children are watching us, they watch teachers, they watch principals, they watch coaches, they watch parents, and they watch how adults behave when they disagree with each other. 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:32.079 We can teach respect all day long, but if the adults in the building don't demonstrate respect, the students have learned the real lesson then. 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:32.480 Yeah. 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:41.759 That's why so much of our work at Character Plus focuses on adults and the culture surrounding their learners. 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.480 And I don't mean adults have to be perfect. 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:46.880 Uh heavens know none of us are. 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:53.359 Um actually, one of the most powerful things an adult can model is what happens when we aren't perfect. 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.160 Can I say I was wrong? 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.559 And can I apologize? 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:00.559 And can I listen? 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.680 And can I change my mind? 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:08.160 And ultimately, can I extend grace? 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.559 That's character education, too. 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:14.319 What is the relationship between character and flourishing? 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.000 I think character helps make flourishing possible. 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:27.119 When we say our vision is a positive culture and climate for all people to flourish, the word all matters enormously to me. 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:30.079 Flourishing isn't simply achievement. 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:36.799 A student can have tremendous academic achievement and still feel disconnected, lonely, and without purpose. 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:42.880 A business executive can make an enormous amount of money and still not flourish. 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:58.880 To me, flourishing has something to do with becoming fully human, developing your capabilities and having meaningful relationships, experiencing belonging and contributing to something larger than yourself, and understanding that your life has purpose. 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.119 Character gives us some of the tools for helping get there. 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.039 And courage helps us move through difficulty. 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.680 Humility allows us to learn, and empathy connects us to others. 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:18.799 Integrity gives us something solid to stand on, and responsibility reminds us that our choices matter. 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.640 And I don't think flourishing is simply an individual pursuit. 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.160 My flourishing should contribute to yours. 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:27.440 Yours, Dr. 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:31.440 Parson, has contributed to mine in the time we've been together. 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:35.039 That's where character changes the conversation. 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:35.920 I love that. 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:37.839 I love that's beautiful. 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:49.599 The Flourishing Leaders Podcast is proud to partner with Human Flourishing. 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:54.240 A growing movement built on the conviction that every human is born to flourish. 00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:03.200 Together, we believe leadership can help create cultures where people find greater

meaning, connection, agency, hope, and optimism. 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:08.480 Because flourishing isn't something we achieve alone, it's something we help make possible for one another. 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.920 Discover human flourishing at humanflourishing. 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.640 Mike, something significant happened in the character education community in 2025. 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:29.279 Character.org and Character Plus share common historical roots going back to Sandy McDonald and the modern character education movement. 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:35.440 And last year, Character.org transferred its program-related assets and intellectual property to Character Plus. 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:38.559 And today, Character.org is powered by Character Plus. 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:47.519 What does bringing these two important legacies together make possible for the future of character education that might have been harder for either organization to accomplish alone? 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:48.559 Yeah, Dr. 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.880 Parsons, I feel an enormous sense of stewardship around this. 00:20:53.200 --> 00:21:00.799 Character Plus and Character.org share some remarkable DNA, particularly through Sandy McDonald. 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.680 Sandy helped launch Character Plus here in St. 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:11.839 Louis in 1988, and he later became instrumental in the national movement that ultimately became Character.org. 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.880 So, in many ways, we're bringing parts of the family back together. 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.599 But the exciting part really isn't a nostalgia. 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:25.119 Um, it's what becomes possible next. 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:30.880 Character Plus has spent nearly 40 years deeply embedded with schools. 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:32.720 We're practitioners. 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:40.480 We train educators, we're in schools, we understand implementation at both the highest and the most tactical level. 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:54.400 Character.org brings an extraordinary national and international legacy, the 11 principles, schools of character recognition, promising practices, and a network that reaches far beyond where we sit today in St. 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:55.039 Louis. 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.759 You put those together and you have the opportunity to connect practice, evidence. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.799 Recognition, research, and scale. 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:07.119 And I think character.org can play in another important role. 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:13.599 Our field doesn't need one organization declaring that it has the answer. 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:18.559 There are wonderful organizations doing character work from different perspectives. 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:25.680 One of the things we're working towards is creating more coherence across the field without demanding uniformity. 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:31.759 Different approaches, different organizations share commitment to helping young people flourish. 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:45.119 If character.org can become a trusted place where those conversations happen while Character Plus continues helping schools turn ideas into practice, I think there's a tremendous potential. 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:46.480 I couldn't agree more. 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:48.240 Definitely a lot of potential there. 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.480 Mike, you know that Bob McGrath and I spend a great deal of time thinking about character measurement. 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:54.960 And this is one of the enduring challenges in our field. 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:58.400 Schools naturally want to know is what we're doing actually working? 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:01.680 But the moment we start measuring character, things get complicated. 00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:07.680 How should schools think about evidence and measurement without reducing character to another score on a spreadsheet? 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:13.119 Yeah, I love this question because there's a temptation to go to one of two extremes. 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:19.119 One is if we don't perfectly measure character, let's not measure anything. 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:23.039 And the other is let's put a number on everything. 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:27.759 And neither seems particularly helpful, at least in my experience. 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.240 We absolutely need evidence. 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:38.160 If we're asking educators to invest time and resources in this work, we should be willing to ask whether it's making a difference. 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:40.400 The character is complicated. 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:48.720 And I don't want us pretending that a seven-question survey has somehow captured the character of a 13-year-old human being. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.400 So I think we need multiple forms of evidence. 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:54.160 What do students tell us? 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:55.920 And what do teachers observe? 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:03.680 What's happening with belonging, attendance, discipline, relationship, student voice, academic engagement, service? 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.960 I mean, what does the culture actually feel like when you walk into the building? 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:11.759 And then there are these developmental questions. 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.480 A child isn't a finished product. 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.960 We aren't finished products. 00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:22.240 The goal shouldn't be to stamp a score on them and send them on down the assembly line. 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:27.440 The goal is to understand whether we're creating conditions to help them develop. 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:32.079 Measurement should help us learn, not simply help us label. 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:35.759 That's a distinction I think matters enormously. 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:47.440 Mike, you've now seen character education from almost every angle as a practitioner, an entrepreneur, a scholar, affiliate,

nonprofit leader, business executive, and someone working directly with educators. 00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:57.200 And we're raising young people in a world being reshaped by AI and social media, polarization, loneliness, rapid technological change, and enormous uncertainty. 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:05.039 Does that changing world alter what character education needs to become, or does it make some ancient truths about character even more important? 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:11.359 Yeah, uh, technology changes the environment in which character is practiced for certain. 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.000 It doesn't eliminate the need for character. 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.960 AI is a perfect example you mentioned. 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:20.880 Young people are going to have access to extraordinary tools. 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:29.119 They'll be able to produce things, find information, and solve problems in ways that would have seemed impossible when you and I were young. 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:35.759 Impossible even a decade ago when Google could give you the answer to nearly everything. 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:43.359 But AI can't make the moral decision for them about how those capabilities should be used. 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:49.680 The more powerful the tool becomes, the more important the person holding the tool becomes. 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.119 The same thing applies to social media. 00:25:53.279 --> 00:26:01.680 Technology can connect us to someone on the other side of the planet while allowing us to ignore the person sitting three feet away. 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:08.559 So, yeah, character education has to evolve, but some very old questions remain. 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.920 Who am I? 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:11.599 Who am I becoming? 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:13.839 What do I owe other people? 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:17.680 What do I owe when no one is watching? 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:20.559 What do I do when nobody's watching? 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:24.720 What do I do when doing the right thing costs me something? 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.759 What is my responsibility to my community? 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:29.680 And what gives my life meaning? 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.519 AI didn't invent those questions. 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:39.039 And as you mentioned, Aristotle was wrestling with many of them a couple of thousand years ago. 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:42.640 Our technology may be changing incredibly fast. 00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:46.079 Human nature, yeah, not so fast. 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.279 So true, so true. 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:53.200 Mike, I want to be mindful of your time, but before you go, I want to ask one last question. 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.960 You've led soldiers, businesses, organizations, and people. 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:03.440 You've worked with thousands of educators and young people, and you spent years thinking seriously about what it means to become a person of character. 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:06.400 So let me bring everything together with one final question. 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:16.160 If you could sit down with a young leader at the very beginning of his or her journey and leave them with just one truth about character that took you a lifetime to learn, what would you tell them? 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:23.680 Yeah, I think I tell them this that your character will become part of someone else's story. 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:30.319 When you're young, leadership can feel like it's about your career, your accomplishments, your title, your success. 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:34.960 Eventually you realize that that isn't really the scoreboard. 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:40.559 People will forget a lot of what you've accomplished, and they may forget the presentation you gave. 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:58.720 They definitely won't remember your strategic plan, but they'll remember how they felt when they worked with you, and they'll remember whether you believed in them, and they'll remember whether you showed up when things got really tough, and they'll remember whether you took the blame or you passed it along. 00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:07.200 And they'll also remember whether you treated the person cleaning the building with the same dignity you gave the person running it. 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:11.119 And here's the part I probably didn't understand when I was 25. 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:18.160 You are teaching people something about character every day, whether you intend to or not. 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:26.160 That's true for CEOs, it's true for Army officers, it's true for teachers, it's true for parents. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:33.440 Let me share a recent personal story about this idea of living like somebody is learning. 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:39.200 I always open the car door for my wife, Terry, uh, not because she needs me to. 00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:43.039 Uh, she's an incredibly strong and capable woman. 00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:46.960 And it certainly isn't some statement about who should do what. 00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:52.799 It's simply one small way I can show her how much I respect and appreciate her. 00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:56.079 Terry has championed me at every turn. 00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:06.960 The truth is, I'm sitting here as a CEO today, in large part because she believed in me and supported me and sometimes saw things in me before I saw them in myself. 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:14.240 Opening her door is just this little habit I've developed over the years to say without actually saying it. 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:14.960 You know what? 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:18.079 I see you and I appreciate you. 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:21.599 You know, we're fortunate to have some of our family here in St. 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.839 Louis, including our granddaughter. 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:38.799 Uh, we were visiting one Sunday afternoon, and as everyone was kind of heading out to cars, our three-year-old granddaughter suddenly hurried over to the

passenger side of our car, and she reached up and tried to open the door for Terry or her grandma. 00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:44.400 And that kind of stopped me because I had never told her to do that. 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:46.559 I had never explained to her. 00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:59.039 I didn't even know that she had noticed her father silently to her mother, reached over and said she saw grandpa. 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.079 So she was simply watching. 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.799 And I think that's character formation in its simplest form. 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:15.119 We're teaching people all the time, often when we have absolutely no idea we're teaching them. 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:19.200 So maybe the lesson I've learned after all these years is pretty simple. 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:24.480 Live like somebody is learning because somebody probably is. 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.079 I love that. 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:26.960 That is beautiful. 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.799 You know, Mike, I have to tell you that your character has become a part of my story. 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:35.039 You have been a great exemplar, a great model, a great mentor for me. 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:37.039 And I am so grateful to know you. 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:40.960 And I'm incredibly grateful you were on the Flourishing Leaders podcast. 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:43.200 Well, that's very kind of you. 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:50.400 Uh, having spent time in your home with uh your incredible wife, Claire, when we visit West Point. 00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:56.960 Uh it was like walking into the most wonderful schools of character we get to visit. 00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:02.240 You just know you're in a special place with special people when you're there. 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:09.759 And so I'll leave you with something I think both of us have learned through some very different chapters of our lives. 00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:17.359 Character isn't a destination where someday you get to say, okay, I've got it figured out. 00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:18.000 All right. 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.279 We're all sort of works in progress. 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:25.200 I am 65 years old and I'm still learning. 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:29.759 I'm 65 years old and still not sure what to do when I grow up. 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:32.400 Uh, I'm still getting things wrong. 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:36.240 Uh, I'm surrounded by people who make me better. 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:38.960 Maybe that's part of flourishing too. 00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:45.920 Uh, the humility to recognize that who you are today doesn't have to be the final version of who you become. 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:57.839 And if we can create schools and workplaces and families and communities where people help one another become better versions of themselves, that's a pretty worthwhile life's work. 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:03.519 Uh, I'm incredibly fortunate that somehow that's where my journey has taken me. 00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:04.319 And Dr. 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.400 Parsons, thank you for letting me talk about it this morning. 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:09.440 Thank you, Mike. 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:10.319 Appreciate you. 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:13.359 What a wonderful conversation with Mike Park. 00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:18.319 There's so much wisdom in what Mike shared, but one idea stands out to me. 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:25.680 Our character isn't something simply we possess, it's something we demonstrate, and something others learn from every day. 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:30.720 I love Mike's reminder that character education isn't something we simply do to young people. 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:34.640 It isn't a poster, a slogan, or a virtue of the month activity. 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:43.119 Character formation happens through relationships, expectations, opportunities to practice, and the cultures we create together. 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:44.799 And it begins with us. 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:56.240 Whether we're leading soldiers, businesses, classrooms, or families, people are watching how we treat others, respond to adversity, acknowledge our mistakes, and extend grace. 00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:04.960 Perhaps nothing illustrated that more beautifully than Mike's story about his granddaughter, who had quietly learned from watching him open the car door for his wife Terry. 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.599 What a powerful reminder that our smallest actions can leave lasting impressions. 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:15.599 As Mike so beautifully put it, live like somebody is learning, because somebody probably is. 00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:22.799 Mike, thank you for your friendship, your leadership, and your extraordinary commitment to helping people and communities flourish. 00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:25.440 And to our listeners, thank you for joining us. 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:35.119 As you go about your week, I invite you to consider this question What is my character teaching the people around me, even when I don't realize they're watching? 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:39.920 And as always, lead with character, live with purpose, strive to flourish. 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.279 See you next time. 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:48.480 Thank you for tuning in to the Flourishing Leaders Podcast. 00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:56.559 We would like to share our gratitude to our guests, and we would also like to give a special shout-out to our team who made this episode possible. 00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:59.039 Our narrator is Mikey Landscape. 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:01.279 Our graphic designer is Mikey Ellen. 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:04.720 Our team is by Jack Lee. 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.039 and performed by the G V5. 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:14.000 Occasionally, our show is co-hosted by Jason VR, and our show is hosted by Scott Parsons. 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:19.280 If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others. 00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:25.840 For more resources and updates, please visit www.flourishingleaders.us. 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:30.239 Stay well, stay inspired, and keep flourishing.