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[0:02] Welcome to Divorce Without Destruction Mediation Podcast.
[0:06] Welcome to Divorce Without Destruction Mediation Podcast with Resolution Mediation.
[0:13] Test Worrell and Hillary Sharpnack help Indiana couples navigate divorce and separation in a more
[0:19] peaceful and formed and future-focused way through mediation.
[0:23] Instead of turning family conflict into a courtroom battle, they help people protect their children,
[0:29] preserve their finances, and create agreements that support life moving forward.
[0:34] I'm your host, Lisa Mosbey.
[0:36] And today we're talking about what makes a divorce a good fit for mediation,
[0:40] from difficult family dynamics and emotional conflict to complicated parenting and financial decisions.
[0:47] Welcome back, ladies. It's great to be with you again today.
[0:50] Hello, Lisa. Good to be with you.
[0:52] So, Hillary, I'm going to kick this one off with you.
[0:55] Do couples sometimes rule out mediation because they assume they have to already be
[1:03] along or agreeing on major issues?
[1:06] Yes.
[1:08] Yeah.
[1:09] And that truly is an assumption, and I would frequently say that the wrong assumption,
[1:14] because, yeah, I think there is kind of the perceived notion that mediation is,
[1:21] everybody has to get along, everybody has to come together, and we just sit around the table,
[1:26] and we sink in by ya.
[1:28] And while I would love that to be the case, that is absolutely not what happens.
[1:33] So, no, absolutely couples absolutely do not even need to agree on anything when they come
[1:41] to do the mediation process. And honestly, we find that the clients do the best often
[1:48] when they really have it made decisions, or maybe when they are on two different pages,
[1:52] because that gives us the opportunity to utilize our conflict resolution skills
[1:56] to really get kind of at the root of what the issue is,
[2:00] and then provide options, provide solutions that can really create a peaceful path forward
[2:06] with the different decisions that they have to make throughout the divorce process.
[2:11] And so what does each spouse actually need to be willing to do for mediation to have a chance of working?
[2:18] I would say that they need to be able to work together in a sense of,
[2:25] we are going to make these decisions together.
[2:28] They have to be able to just say, I am going to come in good faith and really work together
[2:34] with this other person. I don't have to like them. I don't have to like the process.
[2:38] I don't have to like the people I am working with. But you do have to come to the table
[2:41] ready to make decisions that are best for the greater good, not just what's best for me.
[2:48] It's really, how can we make a decision that's best for us moving forward into separate lives,
[2:54] particularly when there are children coming to the table, are the decisions that we are making
[2:59] what's best for the children. We may have differing opinions on what's best for the children.
[3:03] But am I able to set aside my feelings to be able to come to some decision making with the other person?
[3:11] I'm sure Tess can elaborate more on that.
[3:14] Well, I totally agree. I think the core is coming back to, do you want to decide what happens with your money?
[3:25] Do you want to decide how to care for your children or do you want someone else telling you how much money you have
[3:32] and someone else telling you when you get to see your children?
[3:36] You can be very selfish in this process and say, I want it to be my choice, not somebody else's.
[3:43] Yeah. And I'm willing to work with spouse to get there.
[3:47] And what if one spouse wants to try mediation but the others hesitant or resistant?
[3:52] How do you get them both on the same page or how does a spouse invite their other spouse to be part of that process?
[4:00] It is, again, so common that one spouse is thinking mediation is great and the other is, I don't know about this.
[4:07] And that's where our information meeting can be very helpful when both people can come in either together or separately,
[4:16] and express their desires, their fears, their questions, their, I don't think this will work because and get it all out there.
[4:26] We then have the chance to say, well, regarding that question or this desire, here are the different paths we would offer to you.
[4:36] Do you think that would work? And once people's concerns are addressed almost always, they become more comfortable with the idea of pursuing mediation.
[4:49] I think also often they don't want to pursue mediation because truly they don't want to pursue divorce.
[4:56] Once a person understands the divorce is going to happen no matter what.
[5:01] And it's really stinky to not have any control over this huge change in your life that you don't want.
[5:08] Where you can have some control is if you make the decisions together in mediation.
[5:15] Instead, again, of attorneys or judges telling you what the decisions are going to be.
[5:22] And test, I hear you say that often that it's not an adversarial, more of a collaboration when you go through mediation.
[5:29] Otherwise, you're sitting on opposite sides of the desk with different attorneys and other people are having those conversations in between and so much gets lost in the middle.
[5:38] But you came together and now you can work together to separate together.
[5:43] And it makes it so much less painful down the road when you can have those conversations. I hear you say it all the time.
[5:49] But can mediation work when parents have complicated issues to resolve about their children?
[5:55] Honestly, I think mediation is the best place for complicated situations around children.
[6:02] In the more adversarial process, families are kind of shoved into the parenting time guidelines.
[6:10] It's this is how families operate. And there can be some tailoring.
[6:16] And I think there are very good
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attorneys out there that try to seek the best for the family and try to tailor the plans.
[6:23] At the same time, more often than not, it's just you're going to do it this way and figure it out with our mediation process.
[6:31] And we just were working with a couple yesterday who have multiple high needs children that need round the clock care need both a lot of flexibility and a lot of consistency in some differing ways.
[6:45] And so the parents being able to say, we know our children, this is what will work for our children.
[6:53] Here's how we are willing to support each other in providing what they need.
[6:59] And the plan we are writing is a very long plan that's very detailed because that's what that family needs.
[7:06] And the parents are deciding what the best care for their children is.
[7:11] Another one that comes up for me is what if the divorce involves a business, multiple properties, retirement accounts, significant debt, or maybe other complicated financial situations.
[7:22] How does that work through mediation?
[7:25] I mean, it works the same as any, you know, whether you're in the traditional adversarial process or you're in mediation, you know, we're gathering the same numbers, the same assets, the same debts.
[7:35] We're gathering the complete picture of what that marital estate is and we're walking the couples through what that marital state is.
[7:43] The types of pots of money they have, whether it's on the asset side or the liability side, and we're working through the different options that they have.
[7:52] We don't ever try to pretend to be financial planners or financial experts by any means, but we certainly understand the different assets.
[8:00] We understand how the different types of money work, you know, we have that knowledge, but we certainly are never trying to step into the role of say a financial planner or, you know, a CPA, etc.
[8:10] Which is why we always welcome outside professionals into the process to help the information be brought into the process so that the couple can make the most informed decisions.
[8:20] But I mean, we are finding that the majority of our clients have very complex estates, you know, there are multiple businesses, there are, you know, some have had tremendous amounts of debts, some have had very little debt, but a lot of assets.
[8:37] Very complex assets, you know, in different types of 401ks, and we just learned of a new retirement plan yesterday that a client brought forth, we're like, well, that's a new retirement plan, we haven't heard of, okay, we're going to do some research.
[8:49] But all that to say is we are constantly working with very complex marital estates.
[8:56] It works pretty much the same across the board, we're breaking as hillies that we're breaking the estate down into its different parts.
[9:04] We're talking about how the parts work and then they are deciding what they want to do.
[9:09] So how can, how can the attorneys and the financial professionals or other specialists you bring in, how do they get involved, you work directly with them, or it's a, it's a complete team of people that help you to decipher.
[9:22] We're going to be moving forward with this couple.
[9:25] The couple generally reaches out to the experts they want to use.
[9:30] We have a list of people we've worked with that have done very well with mediation and seem to work well with people so if they don't know where to go, we've got some names they can reach out to.
[9:41] But often, especially if they have an extensive estate, they have their own tax advisor, they have their own financial planner.
[9:49] And so we're, as we're gathering the information, we'll create a list of questions that we say, you probably should go to your financial planner and ask about these things or your tax advisor and get their input on how do these different proposals affect you going forward and then bring that information back and we'll have the conversation about what you want to do.
[10:12] Sometimes we make this much more difficult in our head when you explain it like that, it makes complete sense to me to be able to move forward with the plan.
[10:20] You know, can mediation still work when emotions are higher communication between the spouses has been difficult.
[10:27] Mediation, I think, shines when emotions are high and there are difficult conversations because though we have a huge background as mediators, the common denominator among all mediators are we are trained in conflict resolution.
[10:47] That's what a mediator does is takes people who have very different perspectives and says how can we create some common ground so that you can make decisions about this issue and you can decide to make the choice or you can decide we can't make a choice we're going to let somebody else make the choice for us.
[11:09] Those are your two options.
[11:12] We will help you develop different proposals will help you understand them will help you understand where your priorities align or maybe a different priorities, but they can both be served.
[11:25] That's how we're navigating the conflict as mediators and I think there's just a lot more room for people to have the feelings they have, the perspectives they have, the understandings they have.
[11:39] We put it all on the table and we find constructive ways to talk through those so that the couple can come down to a decision.
[11:49] What happens if they come to an issue that they simply can't agree on? What's the next step for that situation?
[11:56] I mean, for us again, it kind of comes back to where we're figuring out what is the root of that issue and we're talking through.
[12:04] We're talking through not only that issue, but then we're also looking at the different options that they have.
[12:09] I mean, particularly in divorce, you only have so many options whether you have the same number of days in a week, you have the same amount of money in this retirement account in
this process versus over here in this process.
[12:22] The same number of children, you know, the same decisions have to be made and no matter what process you're making.
[12:27] And so we're just helping identify potentially different, very creative or often very creative solutions that can work and it meets your need and it maybe meets your need.
[12:38] Nothing's ever perfect, especially in divorce, nobody walks away a winner, just plain and simple.
[12:45] However, again, we're trying to provide what are the options that do me as many needs or desires or dress the fears for each of you as best as possible so that as you're moving separately in life.
[13:01] How do you how are you able to say okay with what we had we were able to make the best decision with what we had.
[13:08] It just seems so much less adversarial to me when you can have those conversations in a way to resolve things versus that adversarial situation you get into with each having an attorney and you know communicating through them, it just it makes so much more sense to me.
[13:25] I hope our listeners agree with that at least understand the picture that we're painting for them.
[13:30] I should say, it's important to know it's not easy. I mean, nobody walks into mediation and says, this is easy. No, emotions are high.
[13:39] Just there are so many different levels and you're working with somebody that you are maybe in very high conflict. You may not be able to stand looking at this person.
[13:48] But again, at the end of the day, if you're able to say, this is not easy, but I can set that aside to come to the table and make some decisions because it's future forward. We're looking to the future.
[13:59] You have to be able to do that. We don't ever try to take emotions out of the process. We need people to feel what they feel and we need them to be able to process to a certain degree.
[14:10] But you do need to be able to kind of set some of that aside to be able to come to make decisions. But we never want to imply that mediation is easy.
[14:18] And it's like, oh, choose mediation because it's easy and fun. No, not at all.
[14:22] You know, it's just what is the more collaborative approach and how do we preserve the relationship as best as possible, especially if you have to remain co-parents.
[14:32] How can we do that in the least adversarial way enough mediation?
[14:36] So what happens when a couple first contacts resolution mediation to find out whether mediation makes sense for their situation?
[14:44] When a couple first contacts us, we offer an information meeting. That's the opportunity for them to come in, share their situation, share their concerns, share their desires.
[14:58] We then talk about both what the litigation process looks like, what the mediation process looks like, how there are some similarities and how there are some differences.
[15:10] We answer their questions, we address their concerns, and then they are hopefully leaving that meeting with
all the information they need to decide is this a good fit for us.
[15:24] And that's where we often see people who are hesitant, resistant, dead seconds to any process begin to relax because when people feel heard, they then feel more secure.
[15:42] And when people feel more secure, they can think more clearly, they can articulate what they need, and they have hope that some of those needs at least will be met as best as the situation allows.
[15:57] I'm kind of curious from all your years of experience, when folks get on the other side of and the divorce is completed, what are you aware of in these relationships that chose to go through mediation versus a more adversarial approach?
[16:11] What do you see in those relationships after the divorce?
[16:15] I think that's maybe one of our favorite moments because as Hillary was saying earlier, you know, people can come in and they can be very adversarial and maybe this isn't fun as they're starting.
[16:26] But over the course, and we tend to meet in two hour sessions, so we tend to meet anywhere between like four to nine times over the course of however many sessions they need to come to decisions, we see people start to get along better, start to relate better.
[16:48] We've had some people who have said, if we'd come to you two years ago, we wouldn't be getting a divorce.
[16:54] We're talking about these issues in better ways now that we're separating them we ever did when we were married and that's both sad, but it's also reassuring that they are leaving in a better place than they arrived.
[17:08] I think also especially where children are involved.
[17:12] Oh, absolutely. I would just piggyback off of that more on kind of the process side.
[17:18] We find that our clients are not returning to their agreements that we're creating in mediation are solid to support them a year, five years, ten years down the road.
[17:30] They may be coming back to mediation to make adjustments as kids grow and child support maybe needs to be adjusted, those kinds of things.
[17:37] The conflict was addressed here now in the mediation so that the agreements that they were making are really lasting and so we don't find that there's loop holes or there's ambiguity.
[17:49] It's just really, we've made these decisions, we know what to expect and it sets them up for being able to deviate from those agreements because they're able to communicate, they're able to collaborate together and so they don't have to come back and find themselves in an adversarial place.
[18:07] Well said, thank you so much for today.
[18:09] It's such a tough topic, but I always feel lighter at the end of our shows because you make it so easy to understand and I granted it is difficult.
[18:19] It's such a challenging time to 29 years for me when I went through divorce and also chose to use mediation versus the adversarial approach.
[18:28] And what, what a relief to be able to still have a relationship with my spouse after the fact and that may not always happen if we choose another approach.
[18:38] So thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for walking us through how this process works so that we can invite more people into having a successful divorce.
[18:47] Thanks Lisa.
[18:48] Appreciate that.
[18:50] Yeah, you're welcome.
[18:52] All right folks, that's it for today's episode of divorce without destruction mediation podcast with resolution mediation.
[19:00] If you'd like to learn more about test world and Hillary sharp neck and the mediation services they offer across Indiana, visit resolution mediation iron dot com.
[19:12] If you found this episode helpful, subscribe to the show and share it with someone who may benefit from the conversation.
[19:18] We'll see you next time.
[19:19] Thanks for watching.
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