TRANSCRIPTION 🔗
Carla :
0:00
Thank you for talking to me. I know this is your personal time and a lot of emotional energy, I imagine, to do this, so I just wanted to start by saying thank you. I really appreciate it. And do you want me to give you a bit of background on the pod?
Lili:
0:17
and what I'm doing. Yeah, okay, cool.
Carla :
0:20
So my background. I've done a few different things, but I've always been women focused and women-centered and about really driving forward equal rights and opportunities for women and children, and so this pod-bowlow is only women and children, only Australian. Where possible, of course, I want to help families when I can. I also want to highlight the issues that are currently percolating in our country and everywhere else really and that's why I'm really interested in your mum's case, because you've done so much to bring it forward and domestic violence is so prevalent and intimate partner homicide that, where possible, I would like to highlight the issues so that we can help make change. That's basically it really.
Lili:
1:13
Awesome. So are you a journalist? Is that like your original? No, I'm not a journalist at all.
Carla :
1:19
I'm an educator.
Lili:
1:21
Oh, cool Nice.
Carla :
1:23
So I have always taught and I guess that's where my desire to help and educate, that's where it comes from. It's like if I can share information that helps people, that's what my sort of thing is, I guess Great.
Lili:
1:36
Awesome yeah.
Carla :
1:38
So okay, so I guess the first thing that I'd like to ask you is if you could describe for me a bit about what your childhood was like.
Lili:
1:47
My childhood was very complicated. Essentially, I lived with my mum until I was about six and then I went into the custody of my grandparents Okay, is that your mum's, my mum's dad and my step-grandmother and I was put into their custody because of domestic violence and my mum had an alcohol problem. So they had me until I was 13 and I ran away from living with them and my mum regained custody of me and I lived with my mum until probably for eight weeks and then she went missing. Okay, so that was like my until 13,. That was quite the whole kind of this is summary of my childhood would be trying to. The goal would be trying to live back with my mum and like fostering that relationship and that was kind of always the highlight of all of our conversations and like future looking was like our kind of all everything centered around that.
Carla :
2:54
When you say you ran away, where did you go?
Lili:
2:58
So it's very complicated and not public knowledge, but that's okay, I can talk about it briefly. My grandparents are very religious and just completely different people to my mum and I, and they didn't. I didn't agree with the religion and I was not treated favorably by them. So I they wanted to put me in foster care. So I called my mum because I had a secret phone and I said this is what's happening and she just said run. So I ran out the back door into like Beachmont, like a park area, like bushland and like waited for three hours and then she and her partner, lez, came and picked me up and then that kind of started the process of her regaining custody.
Carla :
3:44
Wow, that's pretty full on, and so you both really wanted that, and you made that happen, and then your mum went missing.
Lili:
3:54
Yeah, that's the short version.
Carla :
3:56
Can you tell me a bit about your mum, what she was like?
Lili:
4:00
She was very fiery and enthusiastic, always very energetic. I say this a lot, but it's like a big part of our relationship. I think she was a young mum, so she had me when she was 19. So that comes with a lot of positive and negatives, but we were always just doing things like very active. She's always keen to jump on the trampoline with me and get her hands dirty, so that was like an amazing part of our relationship. She definitely had her ups and downs as a parent. I guess every young parent goes through all of those things, especially when you're going through custody battles. But she was super, as I said, energetic and very bubbly and just very honest and upfront as well. So I was treated probably older than my age, but it's been a benefit.
Carla :
4:48
Looking back, and I imagine if she was she raised by the grandparent who yes. So that would have been challenging.
Lili:
4:57
Yes, so my whole family was raised to hope's witness.
Carla :
5:01
Yeah.
Lili:
5:02
So that in itself they were more so I'm lucky whereas I knew a difference, like I had like the religious versus non-religious, so I got exposure to that, but they didn't. So it was a very tight knit community and I've spoken about it before. But essentially it's yeah, you're in or you're out, and once you're out there's no support and it's extremely rigid.
Carla :
5:29
I'm not sure if you know much about Trove's witnesses. No, but I know a bit about cults. Yeah and it sounds a bit like when you leave a cult.
Lili:
5:38
It's very similar. I Obviously am very biased because I don't agree with its teachings and principles, but essentially it's very strict form of Christianity and you Encourage to have worldly friends, which is anyone that isn't a part of the religion, and just all that they don't celebrate like pagan holidays, so Christmas, easter, birthdays and, yeah, it's a lot of Dedicating your time to the kingdom hall or the congregation, so it's like three times a week do knocking, all of that. So it's very insular. Obviously, all the views about women not having as many rights, all of the fun stuff yeah, so it was. It was very traumatic for my mom growing up like that and she was also Abused by a member or like sexually assaulted by a member when she was a child, so molested would be the word. So, yeah, that that's a bit of my mom's background. So, coming into that, it's a lot.
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Carla :
6:42
It's a lot yeah and if you could tell me like I know it's really heavy, but what one of your best memories of you and her.
Lili:
6:51
I have a lot of good memories with her. Mainly our car drives, so we would drive a lot from our house to his house, so vice versa. That drive was about two hours back then, so we would always just be like chatting, chatting and like the whole time singing, listening to music and just like Having the best time, I suppose. Yeah, that's one of the key memories.
Carla :
7:18
Yeah, and that time when you're like there's no other Distractions, you know, when you're in a car it's not like there's other things, it's just you. You're in this little space, you've got this music and it's yeah. Yeah it was great what kind of then happened. So what do you remember in the lead-up to the times, like the days, I guess, before your mom went missing?
Lili:
7:42
so probably Three years leading up to this. It was a very violent relationship. Her own letters that he was very abusive, but so essentially we moved to Go to where I was closer to the school, so I never actually lived with him. And we moved to Beachmont where I was going to school and he obviously didn't like the separation so she had left him and it was this kind of like push-and-pull they were together, they weren't together, making threats, all the typical things you see when people are trying to leave a relationship.
Carla :
8:20
So was that the first time that she had gotten away from him, in terms of not living with him, or she had she kind of been living independently on and off?
Lili:
8:30
no, that was in like three years, the first Proper like address change, right, yeah. So it's big deal and obviously with that you lose a lot of control and Her priority was solely me at that point. So there was a lot of like jealousy happening and she had tried to leave before but it never had been successful and I guess now she had like a concrete reason like this is legitimate, like I have a child to look after now, yeah, so During that time there was a lot of yeah, threatening he would just come to the house, rock up and, for instance. So it's very hard to explain like chronologically, but we were being stalked. At the time we didn't know who it was, but looking back it is likely and I believe it was him.
Carla :
9:21
Do you think that that was his one of his final acts of Control over Tina, like thinking well, she's not coming back to me and I want her to still be fearful, and so how can I Control her fear levels and keep her in this state of fear?
Lili:
9:40
Yeah, 100%. So we didn't know who it was. But so during this time, every night, between maybe 10 and 2 am, someone was outside the house like rattling the windows and it got like progressively more aggressive and, I guess, violent. So it got to the point where her car was vandalized and, yeah, we weren't leaving the house, we were sleeping in the daytime. It
was a very fearful time in both of our lives and the police were called, but they didn't believe that it was happening either, which will be discussed in the inquest, I can imagine. But yeah, it was a lot of that, paired with him threatening her saying like I'll ruin your life, you won't get a job anywhere, all of those types of things, as well as physical violence right, so he was still outwardly.
Lili:
10:29
Oh yeah.
Lili:
10:30
Yeah it was not like a. It was very explicit his motives and she also relied on him financially. So that was another tricky thing. That was we were going through, yeah, so we didn't have much money, so all of these things. It's it's like all domestic violence relationships that you gain full control of Everything and all your connections and finances. So, yeah, it was very intense. We didn't because we're sleeping in the daytime. We didn't answer the door one time so he actually broke our door like the lock and the hinges, so that with us being stalked, we didn't know it was him. So we're barricading ourselves into our house at night like it was very scary.
Carla :
11:11
Yeah, and I imagine for you that would have been really really scary to live through.
Lili:
11:18
I wasn't. It's strange, I wasn't scared of him, I just thought this guy is crazy. Yeah right, like this is not normal behavior. My mom was obviously scared of him, but I was very scared of the stalking Because I didn't know that it was him and it was scary to watch my mom being physically hurt and like scary to see her scared. But I just thought this guy is a lunatic.
Carla :
11:41
But you never felt personally physically threatened by him.
Lili:
11:47
He was. It's a short man syndrome, I suppose. He was a scary looking guy but he was also short. The only time where I was physically kind of threatened by him was trying he was trying to drag my mom down the hallway in our house To talk to her. He was trying to assault her essentially, so I was pulling her and then he grabbed me off her and said get off her, I'll smash her face in. I think those were the words. So that was scary, but it was more so like I didn't. I was more worried about my mom and then just small things like he would if we were ever in the car with him and there was like an argument he'd like start veering around off the road and stuff. So just yeah, but it was more so scared for my mom. Yeah, she, most of the implications were violence towards her.
Carla :
12:37
Yeah, yeah. And what happened on the day that she dropped you off at a friend's place?
Lili:
12:43
Yeah. So we went school shopping with myself, my mom and another mother and daughter and she dropped me off at about 2pm in Canangra with them. She was supposed to go out to his property. So it's very like hit and miss, like why is she going to his property if she's in abusive relationship? But that's how abusive relationships work and we were scared and she made that decision unfortunately. But that's like you, we can't change that now. But a lot of people ask me why was she going there? Most of the decisions that people make are logical in these relationships. So she went to his property. The plan was to fix the car because it had been vandalized, so she didn't want it to rust and we didn't have much, so car was very important and to do our washing yeah, so she had a very legitimate reason to go there.
Lili:
13:36
Yeah, some people argue yes, some people argue no. Well yeah, so she went there and the plan was to come back the next day at like 5pm, pick myself and my friend up for another sleepover, and we were about to start school the following week. So it was very exciting time in our lives and we had a lot to look forward to, and her birthdays also on the 26th of January. So, yeah, it was very close time period, all those things and then she didn't come the next day yeah, the next day she was supposed to come around 5 ish and just never happened.
Lili:
14:13
So that kind of started the whole missing persons.
Carla :
14:16
I know it's hard to put into words. I mean, you're so young, but also at a really, I think, important and pertinent time in your life, you already knew a lot about the world, I imagine. Then this happens when did you get this like fire and this fight, other than you obviously have that from your mum, but like, was there like this big turning point for you, or was it just this slow build after the impact?
Lili:
14:41
I've always been very I don't know. It's just like, yeah, like my blood boils, like thinking about it and missing persons and families are missing persons is just such like a life altering experience that you cannot describe it. It's so hard to describe unless you know someone that's been through it. Essentially, I didn't know that she was dead or I didn't want to believe that she was dead straight away or had been murdered. Technically don't know if he murdered her, but the coroner believes that and police believe that. So, yeah, probably 3 days, 4 days, up to a week. It was just kind of like what is going on. I had hoped that maybe she had got away like child thinking.
Lili:
15:29
So I thought maybe she's like got away and she's hiding in the bushlands near his property and it was raining a lot of the time, so I'm gonna go to she's like dry and safe. Those were like my kids thoughts about it at the time and I like was holding on to all of her clothes and things like that in case she came back. But was pretty naive to think that. But I guess at that point in time you're hoping for anything and yeah, I immediately had like this gut feeling was like this is very bad because, yes, she was very active on her phone so, for instance, if she was ever running late it would always come coming like 2 minutes away. So it's very out of the ordinary for her.
Lili:
16:12
And at the time, because I was a child, I had zero power With the whole police
investigation, any of it. I was only interviewed once. So I got interviewed Four days after she was missing, mind you less came to the property where I was and I think it was an intimidation tactic towards the family and he was like crying missing her but wouldn't come to the police station, all those types of things. So I was interviewed, yeah, for three or four days after she went missing.
Lili:
16:49
And he was there or he had turned up prior to that interview he knew that we were going to the police, so that evening before we went, he came to the property where I was staying.
Carla :
17:02
To have a chat.
Lili:
17:04
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because obviously he's a gang member and whatnot. So I think that played a big part in like intimidating people not from talking. I don't know if the people I was staying with were involved. They've been ruled out currently. Yeah, it's so hard to know. You just think of like a million different which ways things could have gone down.
Carla :
17:23
Do you ever feel? Are you? Are you worried or afraid now, or feel intimidated?
Lili:
17:31
No, so I think that's how gangs or bikies, whatever you want to call them work through intimidation, yeah. But yeah, I've gotten quite vocal at the beginning, like I think I was more scared because my family was scared, but it's also like if you are going to come out of me, like come for me, it's going to be very obvious.
Carla :
17:52
Yeah, that's true.
Lili:
17:53
Yeah, like it's really. It's really stupid on your side if you want to do that.
Carla :
17:58
Yeah, I like way out in the spotlight right now and so yeah, like if anything was to happen, it would be pretty clear. It's true.
Lili:
18:06
So that's that's. I always have that, I think, but sometimes just get. But that's the whole, that's what they want. So I think it's more powerful to overlook that. And obviously there they'll. Anyone that's involved is obviously shitting themselves. Sorry if I'm.
Carla :
18:22
So you've never received any messages or threats or anything like that. I'm not sure if it's from anyone that's been involved.
Lili:
18:29
Okay, so I've posted a lot on the social media, particularly about Les recently, saying if you know this man, if you know my mom, contact me, if you know what happened, etc. And lots of people comment saying like you're going to end up in a hole. But I think it's just trolls.
Carla :
18:46
Right, yeah, not for the trolls.
Lili:
18:48
Yeah, so no one that I know has threatened me, if that makes sense.
Carla :
18:53
Yeah, yeah, okay, and so with the investigation so you were questioned, the police were involved. I kind of get the feeling, from what I've read and researched, that it felt kind of like the police spent a lot of time focusing on the area surrounding her car and not focusing on the people surrounding her. Or did they focus on them and it's just not widely reported.
Lili:
19:20
It's very tricky. I also have to be careful of what I say.
Carla :
19:24
Yes.
Lili:
19:25
Obviously I have a lot of access or lack of evidence should. I say yeah, the police investigation is a real thorn in my side, I suppose. Essentially, I don't know where they searched, except for what is being reported on in the media, right, so we don't have that.
Lili:
19:44
That was actually. They rejected that. The Coroner's Court said no to that information a couple of weeks ago actually. So what I can say is that he was a known criminal. His criminal record is very, very long and she had reported domestic violence in the past and so had members of the public against him. Yes, she never placed an AVO. However, there was a very strong case against him.
Carla :
20:13
Okay.
Lili:
20:13
He also goes and buys a new queen size mattress the next day after she goes, missing Public knowledge, and that mattress is taken to a dump. His friend dumps that and there's a lot of suspicious behavior. Her phone goes off within his property lines. He says that she leaves at 9am but she was supposed to come back at 5. It's only a two hour drive. She was supposed to turn right out of his property, which is like the way back to where I was, but the car goes left to a dead end. So there's a lot of things where for me, just reading it all, you just think what, what as an investigating officer, you think like, surely you can hold him for something like he was never interviewed, even like he was never, that never even happened. So yes, it's. I don't think they did that due diligence in. I don't think they did right by the investigation in the early days.
Carla :
21:09
At the time.
Lili:
21:09
Yeah, yes, the investigation got better when Queensland homicide took it but it was with originally Ipswich police, so it wasn't a homicide. It was always thought like she has been murdered but it was never actually taken to homicide until, yeah, maybe 20 to 19.
Carla :
21:30
Okay, and then you came on the scene, or back on the scene in was it 2020?
Lili:
21:37
Yeah, so I had reached out to the homicide police officer saying like I need to give another interview, like I was the closest person to my mom.
Lili:
21:47
I know both of these people and I was there Like it just blew my mind how I couldn't have been interviewed more because I know the case so well I suppose. So I reached out, I had a second like a random interview and then they put out the reward, which is when I started getting involved. But at the time I was hopeful and I didn't know the extent of the, I'm going to say, alleged negligence of the police in the early days, so I wasn't aware of that. And then obviously they do your property search or that kind of leads to nowhere. We still haven't found her. So then it goes to the Coroner's Court and the Coroner's Court, I get the report and then I'm reading all of these things and I'm just seeing
like all of the it literally says like missed opportunities, in black and white.
Carla :
22:36
Will you get more after the inquest or have you got everything now, like in terms of all that documentation?
Lili:
22:44
No, there's a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of evidence that is not there, has it?
Carla :
22:52
been redacted.
Lili:
22:54
No, just we just don't have it. It's crazy. You think it's going to be thorough and it's really not what you like. Because I, as soon as I got the inquest, I was like, right, justice, something can happen from this and let's, that's not even like the hell fight that. It was to get the inquest, so that was like one step. And then you get to this point anything like, oh, like, the courts will be on our side and people want the same thing as me and they don't, so I can say that. So, for instance, I have hundreds of forensic looking photos, some with blood in them, maybe, maybe it's blood, I don't know and lots of blue light photos from different, various places, and we don't have the forensic report with that. So we asked for the forensic report and we were. It was said, no, if there is one, you can ask on the day about it, like you can ask the in charge officer. And we also asked for search areas and that was not given. So we don't have, we don't have.
Carla :
23:53
Okay, yeah, so they haven't given it to you necessarily.
Lili:
23:58
Yeah, so it's, it's. It feels very unjust and it's really, it just drives you crazy, to be honest.
Carla :
24:07
Is it possible that one of the reasons why the investigation was so lacklustre, particularly on him, was because there was some reciprocal protection happening, or is that like?
Lili:
24:20
It seems to be that way. Okay, it's hard not to think that, given how bad it was. Or they're seriously just so shit at their jobs. Yeah, it's very difficult not to go down that train of thought.
Carla :
24:35
It feels hard to know, because at that time anything domestic violence related was just like look the other way, which still happens now. Or was it a paid, look the other way, or a protection, look the other way?
Lili:
24:49
It's hard to know Exactly, but it's very difficult to know. But given his status and given the criminal history, it would have been easy to take into custody for something, for anything it doesn't even wouldn't have to be related to her even, and they could have got him. Yeah, which is why you think like this seems suspicious, but it's very hard. Yeah, obviously a lot of families, family members, would go down that way, but as soon as you start talking about that, you're looked at like a crazy person. So it's very difficult and like, especially with families trying to fight for justice. Even I think my lawyers look at me and they're like relax. Yeah, like you need to be very like level headed, or else people just will not listen to you at all.
Carla :
25:37
So you got the inquest Amazing, after a hard slog. How many signatures did you end up getting on your petition?
Lili:
25:48
22,000 and something that's amazing. Do you know?
Carla :
25:53
geographically where most of them from here, or were they all over?
Lili:
25:57
There was a lot of Australians like most of the majority were Australians, but because I was using social media, I think there were some American signatures, but mainly Australia.
Carla :
26:09
And how are you feeling about the inquest?
Lili:
26:12
I was feeling very hopeful when I got the inquest and slowly we'd been going through the pre-inquest meetings and I've looked through all the evidence and just getting that lots of pushback. I think personally that it is just a ticking of the boxes and they said in court three weeks ago that finding her body is not a priority of this inquest and that, paired with the literal coroner's act, is to find out who, what, when, where, how. So that's hard to do without a body but they refuse to make that a priority. So it's the most traumatic experience. It will be the most traumatic experience of my life. It's going to be very traumatising and I'm putting in a lot of time and effort, obviously because I want to find my mum.
Lili:
27:07
So it feels like that if her body is not a priority, it's not pointless, but it feels like a waste of time in the sense that the only things that will most likely come out of it will be future recommendations in regards to domestic violence and like the way the police conduct themselves, the way different rehabilitation centres conduct themselves in terms of recommendations and advice to people that are going through domestic violence, and child services is also involved. So there's a lot of big plays involved, but likely those changes have already been made and put into place, because it was 11 years ago and everyone has gotten better with domestic violence. But yeah, so there will be positive change for future victims of domestic violence and people that are going through those systems. However, it's a lot of future looking, so it's not. The priority, as I said, is not to find my mum's body and it's not a reinvestigation. So it's devastating, to be honest.
Carla :
28:15
Is your mum's case still open?
Lili:
28:18
Technically no, so it got closed. The police say it's very confusing terminology. No one's working on it, no one's assigned to it and it's just sitting there, if that makes sense.
Carla :
28:29
Yeah, yeah, but they might after an inquest, you would think if one of the recommendations is to relook at something or someone or a piece of evidence.
Lili:
28:42
I don't know.
Carla :
28:43
I know that's probably the hope.
Lili:
28:46
But I was very hopeful, as I said before, with the inquest. And then you just see we're all reading the same evidence and you see how differently people look at it and the priorities and it just makes you very, very jaded towards
it all. It's very unjust and it's not victim focused, it's not trauma informed, it's none of those things. So it's very hard to hope for anything positive, excluding those recommendations that will help prevent future death.
Carla :
29:15
Do you know how long it might go on for?
Lili:
29:18
It's set to go for five days, but inquest can go for two years. They can do like split sittings. It just depends what comes out of it.
Carla :
29:27
And so I guess the last thing I sort of wanted to ask you about is your project. The teen agree a project. Can you tell me a bit about how you got that started and what its mission is?
Lili:
29:39
So I started the teen agree a project.
Lili:
29:41
After reading the coroner's report and reading that it is not in the public interest to hold an inquest, reading that her death could not have been prevented just reading so many incorrect and nonfactual statements about my mom and about these broader topics, and I found that you need public interest to get an inquest.
Lili:
30:06
So I thought the best way to get public interest is to start the teen agree a project, start a social media advocacy essentially on all of that to gain traction and public awareness and to get those signatures was obviously my first priority. So I could get an inquest and then, broadly speaking, the goal of it is to provoke conversations, or so conversations that provoke change concerning domestic violence, missing persons and homicide, because I've had experienced lived experience with all of those three things and they're all very far reaching and so many people do experience them. But it's such a negative experience and there's not a lot of help or even just online awareness about a lot of those things. It's also about education. So that's the purpose and the mission of the teen agree a project. So it's kind of those three things in tandem with my mom's case.
Carla :
31:00
Do you work elsewhere or is this your main job, like is this your full time job?
Lili:
31:06
I wish it was my full time job. I want it to be. I have two other jobs with different charities, but I work for a domestic violence charity and a homeless charity. But yeah, my goal is to make this my full time job and I'm obviously put most of my time into this.
Carla :
31:25
Well, I hope that you achieve that goal and I hope that something positive for Tina and for you comes out of the inquest. Yeah, I really admire the work that you're doing and I feel like you're a real inspiration and I reckon your mom would be super proud of you. Thank you for talking to me.
Lili:
31:48
Thank you. I also wanted to mention MIST. It's the Aussie based missing persons charity. It was previously called MPAN, so that is like a really great support and I know that you're putting this out for missing persons weeks and I believe there's some training that they're going to be doing around missing persons and ambiguous loss.
Carla
:
32:10
I have support links in my show notes so I'll stick that one in there as well. Also the Tina Grey project links and socials and stuff like that, if there's anything that I can do to help you or anything you want to say to the listeners.
Lili:
32:24
I would just say the best support you can do at the moment is to follow the journey, and as long as there's public scrutiny on any missing persons or homicide case, it usually works in the family's favour. It's when the public stops hearing about it and knowing about it that things can go downhill really quickly. So that would be my main request just follow along. I think that's it, yeah.
Carla :
32:49
And I'll look forward to hearing or following the inquest.
Lili:
32:52
Yeah, it's so, yeah it's very unjust, but it's just really a lot of ups and downs.
Carla :
32:59
Yeah, I can imagine, and yeah, I can only imagine. But also, you know, you've worked so hard to achieve this thing and the natural emotion is hope. And then they're feeding in this like oh no, don't be thinking, this is what we're doing it for. It's quite bizarre to me.
Lili:
33:21
It is. After the inquest there'll be a lot of, I hope, policy changes into how they conduct. That's what I'm going to be pushing for after the inquest is using my own experiences to change it. Yeah.
Carla :
33:34
I was listening to a podcast the other day, Hannah Clark's story. So on that podcast, the Queensland Commissioner, the top lady in the job.
Lili:
33:44
I can't remember her name right now. I think she'll be in the inquest.
Carla :
33:47
She said Queensland police attend a domestic violence incident in Queensland every five minutes.
Lili:
33:53
Every five minutes. They take hours to come when they do come. So it's just like it'd be more than that like happening. That's just what the police can get to.
Carla :
34:02
That they don't get to, and she made a valid point about police needing to be more like social workers and trying to draw more people to the role. Like policing in Queensland is not like cops and robbers.
Lili:
34:18
Yeah, well, there was that big inquiry last year into the Queensland police which is like hundreds of pages long and it's just very concerning how the police conduct is happening. It probably happens in every state, but I'm just more aware of it because that's all that concerns me at the moment. But yeah, it's a really hard thing to change. It's a big systemic issue.
Carla :
34:46
And pretty much any system that we have, particularly in Queensland, because we're like 10 years behind everybody else. Any kind of change that you want to make systemically is going to take about 20 years. That's kind of based on history.
Lili:
34:58
And also it's like changing the people's perceptions that actually work there, because that's like a cultural thing, You've got to get them out. Yeah, like they need to literally die out. But like, yeah, it's a big, mammoth task, all the things that need to change. Yeah, like, hopefully it will, like it will, but yeah, it's just like the speed at which it will change.
Carla :
35:21
It will. The wave has started, but there's a long ride to go. Thank you, and yeah, good luck with the inquest, and I'll be thinking of you. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you, you too See you Lily. Bye.