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Welcome back to your next chapter, the podcast for women who read, write, and live creatively.
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I'm your host, Rebecca Hasselak, and I'm so glad you're joining me today.
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Today we're going a little bit personal, and I'm talking about quitting.
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Specifically, how do you know when it's time to quit?
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When is it time to give up on a dream?
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I know it sounds a little bit like a womp womp, but bear with me and let's chat this out.
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I started thinking about this because in my own life I've realized that sometimes the hardest part of pursuing something meaningful isn't the work itself.
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In fact, in my case, that is completely true.
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Like if I could just sit here and write novels all day, every day, that's not, I mean, I run into obstacles sometimes, but it's not hard for me.
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I love it.
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I thrive on that.
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So it's not the work itself, but it's continuing when there is little or no external evidence that you're getting closer to your actual goal.
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So in this episode, we're going to explore how to evaluate whether a dream is still worth pursuing, why external validation isn't the only measure of progress, and how to keep going when the outcome is uncertain, if that's what you choose to do.
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So I'm going to share a little about my story.
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For those of you who have been with me for a little while, you know I am a writer.
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I'm a writer by trade.
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I've been a professional writer for going on, gosh, 15 years?
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Losing track of time, you guys.
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But I've always written.
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I've always loved writing about characters and writing stories, and I did that even as a child.
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But I started taking novel writing very seriously in 2019.
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So seven years ago.
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Since then, I have five completed novels.
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I have also invested in at various stages.
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I don't do this for every book, but I've invested in professional editing.
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I've invested in working with an expert on query letters, which is what you send to an agent when you're trying to get a literary agent.
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I have had critique partners, I've had beta readers, I have gone to virtual conferences, and I have invested a lot of time, effort, and yes, money into the querying process.
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Because even though I believe in my work, I also believe in learning about your industry and getting to know enough to have a fighting chance, right?
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So the querying process and the process of trying to get a literary agent is quite crazy.
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And I feel like I've learned so much.
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I have gotten professional help.
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I have worked on it myself time and time again.
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And still I've queried three books.
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The first two were very light queries.
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I did not send out a lot.
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I did get a full manuscript request on my second book, the second one I queried.
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It was actually the third one that I wrote.
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And then I queried my fourth novel.
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And I queried it quite a bit.
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I went through different versions.
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I had a strategy session with an agent that I paid for that I felt was like amazing and was going to just be the unlock I needed to start getting all these requests.
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And you guys, I sent out maybe about eight after that, and I have gotten nothing except a couple more rejections.
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So the point here is that I have invested time, money, energy, hope into this process.
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And I am still not a published novelist.
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Now, yes, could I self-publish?
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I could, but my dream is to be traditionally published.
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I did self-publish a book about PR that I wrote in 2016.
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So I am technically an author, guys, but it's my dream to publish traditionally.
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I want to have a book deal with one of the big five, and this is something I've always wanted.
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And so I'm continuing to pursue that goal.
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But here's the thing: the publishing industry is incredibly competitive.
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And unfortunately, AI has only increased the volume of submissions.
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I've seen agents talk about this on the internet, just that so many people are now not only using AI to write books, which is crazy to me.
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If you don't actually want to write a book, why are you writing a book?
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You know?
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But anyway, I digress.
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But they're also using AI for their query packages.
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So it's just becoming where there's so much volume.
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Agents don't have the time to carefully consider each one, although they try.
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And the competition is just skyrocketing because so many people who didn't have the time, discipline, or skill to write a book in the past are now just shortcutting all of it using AI and then submitting it to the same agents as are the people like me who actually have written the books and actually want to be a lifelong novelist and do the writing and do the work.
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So you can see why this is a tricky industry.
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So here's my question: why am I still doing this?
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Number one.
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And number two, how do you know when it's time to quit?
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So I want to explore that with you guys today.
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And this isn't just about writing.
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I just wanted to share my own personal journey because so often we see all of the huge accomplishments on social media, right?
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We see the people talking about their book deal, about getting their agent, about the sales, about being named to a certain book club list and things like that.
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And it can kind of skew our perspective.
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And so I've always wanted to be honest.
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That's honestly a big part of why I started this podcast, is because I wanted us to celebrate the journey and not just the destination.
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And actually, one of my very first episodes was about why we should actually celebrate the journey.
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So I encourage you to go back and listen to that one if you have it.
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So this isn't just about writing, though.
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This also connects to careers, businesses, creative projects, health goals, even relationships, learning a new skill, and any long pursuit that offers few immediate rewards.
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So let's talk about external validation.
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It is very tempting to try to measure your progress and your success and the quality of what you are doing by external validation.
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And of course, by that I mean how many manuscript requests have I gotten?
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How many people have told me my book was amazing?
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What book deal have I gotten?
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You know, all of those things, all of those things that come from the outside world.
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But external validation is not the only evidence of progress.
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In fact, I would encourage you to ask yourself, what has changed during this process, even if the ultimate outcome hasn't?
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So for me, even though I don't have an agent yet, what has changed about me as I have gone through this journey so far?
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Well, I've become more skilled, I've become more disciplined, I've figured out my own writing process.
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So I have a very repeatable, trustworthy process now in which I can actually write a book in anywhere from five to six weeks, like an entire novel, that I feel really good about.
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And I know what it takes to get me there.
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So I've become a much more skilled novelist and writer in general.
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I've also learned from failure.
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Nobody wants to learn from failure.
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We all want to say, oh, failure is amazing.
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Let's embrace failure.
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But who actually wants to sit there and sit with failure?
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None of us, because it's uncomfortable and it makes us question ourselves and it makes us question our worth and the worth of our product and our output and our creativity.
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But yeah, I've learned from failure.
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I've failed a lot so far.
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Like if we're judging just by external metrics, I've failed a ton, you guys.
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And that's actually okay because I've also become more resilient.
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And I've developed wisdom that just wouldn't have come if I'd been rushed.
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So I just want you to remember that progress doesn't always look like the milestone that you've been chasing.
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And I'm saying this as much to myself as I'm saying it to you, but it's true.
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We make progress in all sorts of different ways, and it is definitely not just about the outcome.
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So I want you to remember the difference between outcomes and identity.
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A publication deal doesn't make someone a writer any more than a marathon medal makes someone a runner.
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What makes someone a writer?
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Showing up and writing.
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I've written five novels.
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Am I a writer?
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Absolutely.
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If you've run a marathon, whether you got the medal or not, whether you were the fastest or not, did you run a marathon?
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Are you a runner?
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Yes, of course you are.
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I'm not trying to become a writer.
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I already am one.
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Publication could change my career, but it doesn't determine my identity.
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And my identity, you guys, also is much more than just writing.
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There was actually something really great.
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I quote him a lot, but Brad Stolberg, author of The Way of Excellence, and I believe other books, although that's the only one that we currently own.
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But he had a post the other day.
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He turned 40 and he was saying 40 lessons that he's learned by his 40th birthday.
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And I want to read you one of them because it was interesting.
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It has to do with this idea of identity.
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So he writes build an identity house that has more than one room.
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If you live in a house that only has one room, for example, athlete, parent, writer, or physician, and that one room floods, you have to move out of the house.
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But if you live in a house with multiple rooms, you can seek refuge in the others while you repair the damage in the one.
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It's important to have more than one room because you never know when you'll need to find strength and stability in the others.
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So I love that.
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Build an identity house that has more than one room.
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I also want to mention, I don't know if you guys have seen the image of the miner, the miner looking for gold.
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It's pretty great.
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It is, it's showing this miner, and it's showing him in a cave, I guess.
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Cave, underground tunnel.
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And he's been clearly picking away at this wall, picking away, picking away with his pick, his axe, his pick.
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I don't know.
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I clearly don't know mining terminology.
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And you can see how far he's come.
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But then he's turning around to leave.
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And you notice that literally on the other side of like an inch of wall is all this gold.
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And so the point is like, he was so close and he gave up when he was just an inch away from all this gold and from everything he had been looking for.
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So I really like that because that is the case for us sometimes, right?
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We could be within an inch of gold, and if we decide to quit, we didn't know what was awaiting us on the other side.
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On the flip side, that is not always what happens.
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There is not always that huge room of gold waiting for us on the other side.
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Sometimes we keep chipping away at the wall and the wall and the wall and the wall and we persist and we persist.
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And guess what?
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We never get the gold.
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That is also sometimes true.
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And we don't know which it's going to be until later.
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You just have no way of knowing.
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Sometimes there isn't gold.
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So the lesson isn't just never quit.
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The lesson is not to quit solely because success hasn't arrived yet.
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So I want to make that distinction because I don't want you to quit.
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My answer to when should you quit is never, never, never, never, never, never quit.
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But I also am a realist.
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And I also know that sometimes continuing a pursuit isn't healthy for you.
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Sometimes it's not in your best interest.
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Sometimes you've given all you have to give, and you know, it's the end of the road, or maybe it's time for a pause, and that's okay.
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You don't have to keep going just to say you kept going.
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You need to keep going if it's going to serve you.
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So remember, don't quit only because success hasn't arrived yet.
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If you need to quit, quit.
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But don't do it just because you haven't reached your ultimate vision of success.
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So here are some questions worth asking if you've been considering walking away from something.
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And I'm mostly talking about creative pursuits, but this can also apply to other areas of life.
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Do you still care about this dream?
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Are you still learning and growing?
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Like will you regret giving this up?
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And of course, that's something you're just gonna have to guess about.
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Are you pursuing this because it matters to you or because you think you should?
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Sometimes we have invested so much into something that we feel like if we give it up, it's almost like all that investment wasn't worthwhile.
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So like we have to keep going.
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I feel like I should keep going, but you don't really want to keep going.
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So are you pursuing it because it actually matters to you?
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And are you willing to adapt while staying true to the goal?
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And I would also add, I said, Do you still care about this dream?
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Do you still love the work?
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Obviously, with creativity, not every session is going to be perfect flow.
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It's not going to all lead to incredible creations.
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That's not how it works.
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But 90% of the time, 70% of the time, do you look forward to it?
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Do you enjoy the work?
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And that's where I am, you guys.
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I would still write novels if I never got published, if I never got an agent, if nobody except my close family and friends ever read my books.
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I want other people to read them.
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I want all those things very much, but I love the writing part of it.
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And so that's how I know I am not going to quit because I love it too much.
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So if you find something you genuinely love, then don't quit.
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But if it's not serving you, it's okay to pause, or it is okay to quit if it's become something that's unhealthy in your life.
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And so go through those questions and really think about it.
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Remember too, the difference between intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.
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Research consistently finds that people are more likely to persist, perform well, and find satisfaction when they value the work itself rather than relying solely on external rewards.
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So that's exactly what I'm talking about.
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I do, I value the work itself.
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So here are some practical takeaways for you.
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I want to encourage you to measure your progress by who you're becoming, not just what you've achieved.
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Most of your life is going to be the journey, not the destination anyway.
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So do you like the journey, you guys?
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Measure your progress by that.
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Celebrate growth that isn't publicly visible.
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Separate temporary disappointment from a genuine desire to stop, and let purpose, not impatience, guide your decision.
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So I just want to ask you, is there something you've been thinking about giving up?
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Not because you no longer love it or because you no longer have the dream, but maybe because you just haven't yet received the validation you hoped for?
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If so, I want you to really give this some serious thought and remember don't ever quit only because success hasn't arrived yet.
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You don't have to keep every dream forever, but sometimes the timeline is longer than you expect.
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And maybe success isn't only reaching the finish line.
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Maybe it's becoming someone you're proud of while you continue the journey.
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And you know what?
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I always like to think of it this way too.
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On the other side of my success story, when I say, oh yeah, my book deal and my movie options and my Oscar and all the things down the road, look at all of this before story that I will have about the perseverance, right?
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And the journey.
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And either way, the journey matters.
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Your work matters.
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So just be honest with yourself about why you're doing it and whether or not you should continue.
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And I will leave you with a quick quote, you guys, from Nelson Mandela, who said, It always seems impossible until it's done.
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So I wish you well on making some difficult decisions.
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And as always, I encourage you to keep creating and keep turning the page.
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Welcome back to your next chapter, the podcast for women who read, write, and live creatively.
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I'm your host, Rebecca Hasselak, and I'm so glad you're joining me today.
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Today we're going a little bit personal, and I'm talking about quitting.
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Specifically, how do you know when it's time to quit?
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When is it time to give up on a dream?
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I know it sounds a little bit like a womp womp, but bear with me and let's chat this out.
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I started thinking about this because in my own life I've realized that sometimes the hardest part of pursuing something meaningful isn't the work itself.
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In fact, in my case, that is completely true.
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Like if I could just sit here and write novels all day, every day, that's not, I mean, I run into obstacles sometimes, but it's not hard for me.
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I love it.
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I thrive on that.
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So it's not the work itself, but it's continuing when there is little or no external evidence that you're getting closer to your actual goal.
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So in this episode, we're going to explore how to evaluate whether a dream is still worth pursuing, why external validation isn't the only measure of progress, and how to keep going when the outcome is uncertain, if that's what you choose to do.
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So I'm going to share a little about my story.
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For those of you who have been with me for a little while, you know I am a writer.
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I'm a writer by trade.
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I've been a professional writer for going on, gosh, 15 years?
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Losing track of time, you guys.
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But I've always written.
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I've always loved writing about characters and writing stories, and I did that even as a child.
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But I started taking novel writing very seriously in 2019.
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So seven years ago.
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Since then, I have five completed novels.
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I have also invested in at various stages.
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I don't do this for every book, but I've invested in professional editing.
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I've invested in working with an expert on query letters, which is what you send to an agent when you're trying to get a literary agent.
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I have had critique partners, I've had beta readers, I have gone to virtual conferences, and I have invested a lot of time, effort, and yes, money into the querying process.
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Because even though I believe in my work, I also believe in learning about your industry and getting to know enough to have a fighting chance, right?
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So the querying process and the process of trying to get a literary agent is quite crazy.
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And I feel like I've learned so much.
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I have gotten professional help.
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I have worked on it myself time and time again.
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And still I've queried three books.
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The first two were very light queries.
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I did not send out a lot.
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I did get a full manuscript request on my second book, the second one I queried.
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It was actually the third one that I wrote.
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And then I queried my fourth novel.
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And I queried it quite a bit.
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I went through different versions.
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I had a strategy session with an agent that I paid for that I felt was like amazing and was going to just be the unlock I needed to start getting all these requests.
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And you guys, I sent out maybe about eight after that, and I have gotten nothing except a couple more rejections.
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So the point here is that I have invested time, money, energy, hope into this process.
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And I am still not a published novelist.
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Now, yes, could I self-publish?
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I could, but my dream is to be traditionally published.
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I did self-publish a book about PR that I wrote in 2016.
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So I am technically an author, guys, but it's my dream to publish traditionally.
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I want to have a book deal with one of the big five, and this is something I've always wanted.
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And so I'm continuing to pursue that goal.
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But here's the thing: the publishing industry is incredibly competitive.
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And unfortunately, AI has only increased the volume of submissions.
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I've seen agents talk about this on the internet, just that so many people are now not only using AI to write books, which is crazy to me.
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If you don't actually want to write a book, why are you writing a book?
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You know?
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But anyway, I digress.
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But they're also using AI for their query packages.
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So it's just becoming where there's so much volume.
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Agents don't have the time to carefully consider each one, although they try.
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And the competition is just skyrocketing because so many people who didn't have the time, discipline, or skill to write a book in the past are now just shortcutting all of it using AI and then submitting it to the same agents as are the people like me who actually have written the books and actually want to be a lifelong novelist and do the writing and do the work.
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So you can see why this is a tricky industry.
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So here's my question: why am I still doing this?
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Number one.
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And number two, how do you know when it's time to quit?
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So I want to explore that with you guys today.
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And this isn't just about writing.
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I just wanted to share my own personal journey because so often we see all of the huge accomplishments on social media, right?
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We see the people talking about their book deal, about getting their agent, about the sales, about being named to a certain book club list and things like that.
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And it can kind of skew our perspective.
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And so I've always wanted to be honest.
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That's honestly a big part of why I started this podcast, is because I wanted us to celebrate the journey and not just the destination.
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And actually, one of my very first episodes was about why we should actually celebrate the journey.
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So I encourage you to go back and listen to that one if you have it.
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So this isn't just about writing, though.
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This also connects to careers, businesses, creative projects, health goals, even relationships, learning a new skill, and any long pursuit that offers few immediate rewards.
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So let's talk about external validation.
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It is very tempting to try to measure your progress and your success and the quality of what you are doing by external validation.
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And of course, by that I mean how many manuscript requests have I gotten?
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How many people have told me my book was amazing?
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What book deal have I gotten?
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You know, all of those things, all of those things that come from the outside world.
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But external validation is not the only evidence of progress.
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In fact, I would encourage you to ask yourself, what has changed during this process, even if the ultimate outcome hasn't?
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So for me, even though I don't have an agent yet, what has changed about me as I have gone through this journey so far?
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Well, I've become more skilled, I've become more disciplined, I've figured out my own writing process.
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So I have a very repeatable, trustworthy process now in which I can actually write a book in anywhere from five to six weeks, like an entire novel, that I feel really good about.
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And I know what it takes to get me there.
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So I've become a much more skilled novelist and writer in general.
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I've also learned from failure.
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Nobody wants to learn from failure.
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We all want to say, oh, failure is amazing.
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Let's embrace failure.
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But who actually wants to sit there and sit with failure?
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None of us, because it's uncomfortable and it makes us question ourselves and it makes us question our worth and the worth of our product and our output and our creativity.
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But yeah, I've learned from failure.
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I've failed a lot so far.
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Like if we're judging just by external metrics, I've failed a ton, you guys.
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And that's actually okay because I've also become more resilient.
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And I've developed wisdom that just wouldn't have come if I'd been rushed.
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So I just want you to remember that progress doesn't always look like the milestone that you've been chasing.
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And I'm saying this as much to myself as I'm saying it to you, but it's true.
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We make progress in all sorts of different ways, and it is definitely not just about the outcome.
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So I want you to remember the difference between outcomes and identity.
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A publication deal doesn't make someone a writer any more than a marathon medal makes someone a runner.
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What makes someone a writer?
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Showing up and writing.
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I've written five novels.
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Am I a writer?
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Absolutely.
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If you've run a marathon, whether you got the medal or not, whether you were the fastest or not, did you run a marathon?
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Are you a runner?
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Yes, of course you are.
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I'm not trying to become a writer.
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I already am one.
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Publication could change my career, but it doesn't determine my identity.
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And my identity, you guys, also is much more than just writing.
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There was actually something really great.
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I quote him a lot, but Brad Stolberg, author of The Way of Excellence, and I believe other books, although that's the only one that we currently own.
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But he had a post the other day.
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He turned 40 and he was saying 40 lessons that he's learned by his 40th birthday.
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And I want to read you one of them because it was interesting.
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It has to do with this idea of identity.
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So he writes build an identity house that has more than one room.
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If you live in a house that only has one room, for example, athlete, parent, writer, or physician, and that one room floods, you have to move out of the house.
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But if you live in a house with multiple rooms, you can seek refuge in the others while you repair the damage in the one.
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It's important to have more than one room because you never know when you'll need to find strength and stability in the others.
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So I love that.
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Build an identity house that has more than one room.
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I also want to mention, I don't know if you guys have seen the image of the miner, the miner looking for gold.
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It's pretty great.
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It is, it's showing this miner, and it's showing him in a cave, I guess.
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Cave, underground tunnel.
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And he's been clearly picking away at this wall, picking away, picking away with his pick, his axe, his pick.
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I don't know.
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I clearly don't know mining terminology.
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And you can see how far he's come.
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But then he's turning around to leave.
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And you notice that literally on the other side of like an inch of wall is all this gold.
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And so the point is like, he was so close and he gave up when he was just an inch away from all this gold and from everything he had been looking for.
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So I really like that because that is the case for us sometimes, right?
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We could be within an inch of gold, and if we decide to quit, we didn't know what was awaiting us on the other side.
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On the flip side, that is not always what happens.
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There is not always that huge room of gold waiting for us on the other side.
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Sometimes we keep chipping away at the wall and the wall and the wall and the wall and we persist and we persist.
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And guess what?
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We never get the gold.
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That is also sometimes true.
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And we don't know which it's going to be until later.
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You just have no way of knowing.
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Sometimes there isn't gold.
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So the lesson isn't just never quit.
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The lesson is not to quit solely because success hasn't arrived yet.
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So I want to make that distinction because I don't want you to quit.
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My answer to when should you quit is never, never, never, never, never, never quit.
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But I also am a realist.
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And I also know that sometimes continuing a pursuit isn't healthy for you.
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Sometimes it's not in your best interest.
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Sometimes you've given all you have to give, and you know, it's the end of the road, or maybe it's time for a pause, and that's okay.
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You don't have to keep going just to say you kept going.
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You need to keep going if it's going to serve you.
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So remember, don't quit only because success hasn't arrived yet.
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If you need to quit, quit.
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But don't do it just because you haven't reached your ultimate vision of success.
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So here are some questions worth asking if you've been considering walking away from something.
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And I'm mostly talking about creative pursuits, but this can also apply to other areas of life.
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Do you still care about this dream?
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Are you still learning and growing?
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Like will you regret giving this up?
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And of course, that's something you're just gonna have to guess about.
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Are you pursuing this because it matters to you or because you think you should?
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Sometimes we have invested so much into something that we feel like if we give it up, it's almost like all that investment wasn't worthwhile.
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So like we have to keep going.
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I feel like I should keep going, but you don't really want to keep going.
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So are you pursuing it because it actually matters to you?
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And are you willing to adapt while staying true to the goal?
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And I would also add, I said, Do you still care about this dream?
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Do you still love the work?
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Obviously, with creativity, not every session is going to be perfect flow.
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It's not going to all lead to incredible creations.
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That's not how it works.
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But 90% of the time, 70% of the time, do you look forward to it?
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Do you enjoy the work?
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And that's where I am, you guys.
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I would still write novels if I never got published, if I never got an agent, if nobody except my close family and friends ever read my books.
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I want other people to read them.
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I want all those things very much, but I love the writing part of it.
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And so that's how I know I am not going to quit because I love it too much.
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So if you find something you genuinely love, then don't quit.
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But if it's not serving you, it's okay to pause, or it is okay to quit if it's become something that's unhealthy in your life.
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And so go through those questions and really think about it.
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Remember too, the difference between intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.
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Research consistently finds that people are more likely to persist, perform well, and find satisfaction when they value the work itself rather than relying solely on external rewards.
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So that's exactly what I'm talking about.
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I do, I value the work itself.
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So here are some practical takeaways for you.
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I want to encourage you to measure your progress by who you're becoming, not just what you've achieved.
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Most of your life is going to be the journey, not the destination anyway.
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So do you like the journey, you guys?
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Measure your progress by that.
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Celebrate growth that isn't publicly visible.
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Separate temporary disappointment from a genuine desire to stop, and let purpose, not impatience, guide your decision.
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So I just want to ask you, is there something you've been thinking about giving up?
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Not because you no longer love it or because you no longer have the dream, but maybe because you just haven't yet received the validation you hoped for?
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If so, I want you to really give this some serious thought and remember don't ever quit only because success hasn't arrived yet.
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You don't have to keep every dream forever, but sometimes the timeline is longer than you expect.
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And maybe success isn't only reaching the finish line.
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Maybe it's becoming someone you're proud of while you continue the journey.
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And you know what?
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I always like to think of it this way too.
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On the other side of my success story, when I say, oh yeah, my book deal and my movie options and my Oscar and all the things down the road, look at all of this before story that I will have about the perseverance, right?
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And the journey.
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And either way, the journey matters.
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Your work matters.
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So just be honest with yourself about why you're doing it and whether or not you should continue.
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And I will leave you with a quick quote, you guys, from Nelson Mandela, who said, It always seems impossible until it's done.
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So I wish you well on making some difficult decisions.
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And as always, I encourage you to keep creating and keep turning the page.
