Cutting Deep into Horror | The Cell (2000): Ending Explained & Serial Killer Nightmares

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All right, and right through here, you'll see the chocolate fountain. Although,
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unlike most chocolate fountains, the fountain is made of chocolate,
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and it just, well, it uses regular water. It's a
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fountain made of chocolate, not a fountain that dispenses chocolate.
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Okay, so, yeah, that's pretty impressive.
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I would say so.
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It's really big.
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Well, yes, you see, when you're inside the mind of
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a murderer... Space doesn't really have an issue, per se.
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Can we back up?
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Sure, you wanted to get a better look at the fountain?
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No, no, no, to what you just said. Where are we?
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Inside the mind of a murderer. Do you not remember
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the whole rundown where we were laying on those floating
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table thingies?
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Oh, I thought that was a dream.
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No, this would be more close to a dream, actually.
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Oh, God, what's that over there?
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Oh, that is... Yeah, that is a very large box
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of Captain Crunch. Incredibly large.
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I know, I mean, like, right beside it.
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The toilet?
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The thing with the oozing and the blood and the viscera.
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You know, this type of psychology is a little bit
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of a soft science, but I'm starting to think that
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maybe you're seeing kind of what you want to see. Because...
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I see the box of Captain Crunch. I see the toilet,
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but it's not even a functional toilet. It's a Banksy.
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It has painting on it and it's gold. I don't
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know what you're looking for.
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Yeah, those are both right there. But then like right
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in front of them is like a big, is it
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a body or?
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It is the body of work of a famous poet.
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Oh man, Francisco. I can never remember his name. I apologize.
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I should have prepared better. I'm supposed to show you around.
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If you want to see all the violence and stuff,
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it's right through that door in the front of the
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house over there. It's very well appointed. It even says,
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welcome to hack.
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Oh.
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Yeah.
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Okay. No, I think I want to stay here with
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the giant.
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Fountain that is chocolate.
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Obviously, you wanted to see the hell that is inside
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of his mind. So right through this door. Keep going.
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Don't trip on your shoelaces. He should have wore Velcro.
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They should have told you that before you entered.
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This podcast is about why horror scares us. What deep, dark, secret,
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scary cinema shines a light on. The discussions are frank
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and involve conversations about abuse, trauma, and mental health. There
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are also spoilers, so keep that in mind too. Now,
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sharpen your machetes and straight razors, because this is Cutting
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Deep Into Horror.
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Hello, my spookies, and welcome back to Cutting Deep into Horror.
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I am your host, Enrique Couto, of course, here with
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my co-host, Rachel Rodolphe. Rachel, how are you?
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I'm doing good.
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Good.
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Yeah.
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Is it because you didn't turn 40?
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That's part of it.
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I turned 40 like a week ago or whatever, two
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weeks ago when this airs.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, of course, immediately I need readers.
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Yeah, it was like 10 days later.
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No, it was literally seven days later. Oh, it was
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literally seven days later. My birthday was Thursday and then
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it was the next Thursday. I'm like, I'm not going
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to put off getting my eye exam again because I'm
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already blind as a bat anyway. But yeah, guy didn't
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even warn me. Just hands me the prescription, says a
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few things about contact lenses and then it's like, see ya.
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And then I go home and I'm like putting it
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in my prescription to order some glasses. And I'm like,
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what is this add one thing? Per eye? Oh, no. Wait,
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what is multifocal? Like bifocals? And then ChatGPT explained that
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I am indeed old. So, you know, just a good
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punch in the lungs, you know, after feeling pretty all
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right otherwise.
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Well, you got to keep up the theme, you know.
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Well, oh, thanks. The theme of entropy?
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Yeah.
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Is that what you're going to say? Gotcha. No, yeah,
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it was, you know, an amusingly painful thing. But speaking
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of amusingly painful, our film tonight is The Cell from 2000.
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And it's a film that I feel like I wouldn't
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call it underrated. I feel like anybody who watched The
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Cell is a fan of it. Yeah, that's that's my
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my understanding. The last time I saw before we watched
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it for the show, the last time I saw the
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cell was I was randomly at the cigar lounge and
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it was just on the TV. This was early days
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of the cigar lounge when they had one big TV
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in the one area. And then the loungy area has
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a bunch of TVs. But they were just watching the cell.
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I was like, oh, man, is this the cell? And
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they were like, yeah. I was like, oh, well, then
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I'm going to watch the last half of the cell.
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This is sad. But it is very much a product
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of its time, but in a charming way. I mean,
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in part, just the cast alone. I mean, because it
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stars Jennifer Lopez in one of her most serious roles,
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because she's dealing with a serial killer. Then you got
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Vince Vaughn, who is kind of at the height of
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his Vince Vaughn-ness as well. Yeah. I like Vince Vaughn.
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I don't know about you, but I always liked him.
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And then we have, speaking of at their most... Lopez
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and Vaughn. But then at their least, what he's like
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at all is Vincent D'Onofrio, who is like a completely
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different person than he's been in nearly any other movie.
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He's completely transformed into this psycho and he's played a
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lot of scary, intense people before, but he's really on
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another plane.
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Oh yeah.
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On this one. You probably don't even know what you
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know him from. I, I have to admit that I don't.
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I don't know what I know him from.
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He was Edgar the Bug in Men in Black.
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That is it.
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Yep.
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That's the big one. I mean, he was Leonard Gomer
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Pyle Lawrence in Full Metal Jacket, which was what made
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him famous in 87 because he played the most tragic
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character in Full Metal Jacket. But he's an incredible actor.
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He's been in so many films. I mean, he was
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in Jurassic World. Uh, gosh, uh, he's done a lot
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of films, um, massive, massive acting career. So, but, uh,
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in this film, he, you barely even recognize him. He's
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so lost in the character of a psycho sexual serial
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killer who is extremely layered before you even get into
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his brain. Um, for those who don't know, the cell
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is basically a horror film about a serial killer who,
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Who kills women in very, very brutal ways, but he
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does it in a weird contained way. He likes to
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lock them in a cell. And I know what you're thinking. Oh,
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so that's the cell. There are a lot of cells. Yeah.
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That's one of my favorite things about the movie is
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that the cell is many things. Figurative, literal, figurative again.
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It keeps jumping around. So he ends up in a coma.
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During apprehension, it turns out he had some kind of
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very rare ailment that's triggered by water, I think it was.
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And so he goes into a coma. They find him
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and he was like, I think he would have drowned
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in the bathtub if they hadn't found him right when
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they did. But because of his weird separation from killing,
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the way he kills is he sets up an automated
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thing that drowns these women in a tank and he
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films it while he's not there. And then he comes back.
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He has this weird separation so that it's almost like
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he didn't do it, except that he absolutely did. But
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because of that, they have maybe 48 hours to figure
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out where the hell this woman is and save her
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life before she dies. So they go to Jennifer Lopez's character,
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who is an experimental neurologist, psychiatrist person who has been
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experimenting with these methods of going inside of minds of
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coma patients. Right. But the problem is. That the minds
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they've been going into are like a little boy who's
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in a coma, not, not a serial killer, let alone
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a grownup. That was, I think they even mentioned that. Like,
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it's not even just that he's a serial killer. He's
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also an adult, which means he's just going to be
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far more intricate mentally. Yeah. Cause when, when they see
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at the beginning, we see her going into this little
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boy's consciousness.
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Yeah.
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It's relatively simple because he's a little boy.
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Yeah.
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And she's just trying to, you know, communicate with him.
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I think that they theorize that maybe it's a way
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to bring them out of the coma eventually. Maybe they
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could get there. Right. Eventually. That it's possible.
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Yeah, because I believe what it is, and they kind
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of go into it as the movie progresses, but the
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idea is that the therapist will go into the child's
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mind first, and then once they build a rapport, then
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eventually they can bring the child into the therapist's therapist's
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mind and then help them like break out.
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I think that was the reveal at the end of
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the movie was that they realized it was better to
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do that yeah it was better to bring the child
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or to bring the person into the therapist's mind than
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to go into their mind which makes sense because uh
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one of the elements of this film that i've always
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felt was really important um and is kind of complicated
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is uh the idea of therapy being a kind of
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psychological um like not violation but like a like a Yeah.
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Like the idea that what therapists do is they go
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into your brain and they rearrange the furniture. And how
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much can you even consent to that? And that is
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a nuanced take because obviously therapy works for millions of people.
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And there are some people who are going to have
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bad experiences with therapists, whether it's because the therapist was
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a bad fit or the therapist was legitimately bad. Usually
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the latter is not common. Yeah. It's more the former.
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It's just like, yeah, we didn't mesh very well. But this,
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I feel like, really kind of dives into the idea
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of what it's like when a therapist kind of goes
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into your mind metaphorically and starts digging things up. Yes.
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And how it's like, you don't have permission for that.
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So I almost felt like the concept that it might
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be more effective to go into the therapist's mind might
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have been a suggestion that less invasive methods are better
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or something. But I'm still kind of thinking about it.
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It's a complex movie and it's... it's famous for being
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extremely surreal.
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Yeah.
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Obviously once they go into their minds, it gets very,
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very out there. Um, and I thought I had it up.
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I was going to say where you can watch it. Uh,
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let's see. Cell phone 2000. So if you want to
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watch the cell before we really spoil it all, um,
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it is available. Yeah. It's basically just available to rent
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or buy digitally. So, uh, or on like, you know,
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physical media, if you're, if you're freaky like that, Unlike
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Amazon Prime, YouTube, Google Play, Apple TV, and Fandango. And
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I will say, if you've never seen this film, it's
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totally worth a rental fee to not only see a
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really interesting movie that is scary and upsetting and intense,
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but also to really see one of the big markers
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of 2000s horror. Because after Scream comes out in the
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late 90s, every movie, nearly every movie changed. And a
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lot of people, well, it's incredible because it's a testament
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to Wes Craven. It's a testament to the work they
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were doing. It's a testament to the way the audiences
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felt about movies at the time. Some people feel like
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it kind of derailed an interesting era of horror movies.
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Because if you watch pre-96 horror, it's not at all
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what came after it. It's not a lot of meta...
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horror it's not a lot of self-referential horror self-aware horror
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i mean there's a little bit yeah but there's a
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lot more they were experimenting with monsters a lot uh
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you know there was deep rising mimic i think that
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came out that early um and it didn't derail them
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wholly it's just that a lot of them got overlooked
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entirely because what became hot was this meta slasher cast
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the you know all the cast of characters are young
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people from like dawson's creek basically and which I mean,
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literally spawned. I know what you did last summer and
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more screen movies as well. And then more, I know
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you did last summer movies. So it's interesting that like
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a movie like the cell was really doing something more original.
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Yeah.
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Um, very, I don't know if the filmmaker was directly
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inspired by hell raiser, but it has a very hell
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raiser vibe. Absolutely. Which I, I, which I think works
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well for it. And while it was not a flop,
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it was not a huge hit. It was a hit.
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Okay.
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By the standards of 2000, it cost about $ 33 million
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to make, and it made about $ 104. 1 million at the
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box office. This would be an era when cable, pay cable,
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and VHS DVD sales were very, very rich. So I'm
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sure it made money. It made real money. But it wasn't,
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it didn't take the world by storm and cause an
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entire era of like, super cerebral horror films to kind
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of grip the country like Scream did. Or, you know,
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Nightmare on Elm Street or Friday the 13th or Texas
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Chainsaw Massacre or whatever. It wasn't one of those. If
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it was, no one would not have seen it. It'd
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be very rare. And it was produced by New Line Cinema,
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the studio that built Freddy Krueger. Okay, yeah. Yeah. So
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it's an interesting film. It really is. And revisiting it,
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I liked it even more. I mean, my memory, I
267
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watched it Probably not right when it came out, but
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I definitely saw it on a home video, probably in 2002, 2003.
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And I remember just being kind of like, whoa, this
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trippy and dark.
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Yeah.
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So that's kind of like the biggest point you could
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say about the cell is it's trippy and it's dark.
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Both accurate.
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Yeah. So we're going to take a quick break and
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then we'll dive in deeper into exactly what the cell
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is all about and what we got from it and
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what about it scared us. right after this. So what
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was your first impression watching the film? Because I didn't
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realize I gave mine. Well, because I watched it when
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I was so young.
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Yeah.
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But so, you know, sitting down, you know, the dark
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living room with the projector on, And watching this movie
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that I'm guessing, I mean, did you know much about
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it ahead of time?
287
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I didn't know much about it, but I do remember
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like when it came out, I remember seeing trailers and
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seeing like commercials when it came to video. And I
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always remember thinking like, wow, that looks really trippy. It
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looks cool. I want to see that. And then, you know,
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never really got the chance to until, you know, now.
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So I really enjoyed it. I, you know, you know
294
00:16:03.370 --> 00:16:07.620
how I like, you know, movies and films and stuff
295
00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.100
that have like nightmare logic or dream logic to them.
296
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:11.639
Yeah.
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00:16:11.659 --> 00:16:15.279
You can never stay awake during a Fulci movie. He's
298
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the king of nightmare logic.
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00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:17.639
Yeah.
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00:16:17.820 --> 00:16:19.679
He really doesn't care. People are like, how did it
301
00:16:19.950 --> 00:16:21.909
stand there at the end? He's like, it's a nightmare.
302
00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:23.490
That's it.
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It's a nightmare.
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Fuck you.
305
00:16:25.230 --> 00:16:28.470
Uh, I mean, yeah, usually he would, he would swear
306
00:16:28.509 --> 00:16:30.710
at you too. Yeah. I mean, he was Italian. What
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00:16:30.730 --> 00:16:33.470
do you want? You know, well, he was Roman. I'm sorry.
308
00:16:33.690 --> 00:16:34.450
Well, that's yeah.
309
00:16:34.710 --> 00:16:38.309
Well, that, I think saying you're Roman says more about
310
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you than being quote unquote Roman. Absolutely. That just means
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00:16:43.070 --> 00:16:49.289
he wasn't Sicilian. Thank goodness, right? But no, so yeah,
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00:16:49.470 --> 00:16:52.710
it is. It's a trippy movie, but it's also, it's got,
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00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:54.320
I mean, I don't know if you picked up on it,
314
00:16:54.330 --> 00:16:57.759
but it's got a very kind of in the scenes
315
00:16:57.799 --> 00:17:02.080
that aren't inside of the minds. Yeah. Because I think
316
00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.740
we go into three minds total because we go into
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the little boy right at the beginning.
318
00:17:06.089 --> 00:17:08.769
Yeah, Edward and then Carl.
319
00:17:09.450 --> 00:17:11.750
Yeah, and then we go into the therapist mind at
320
00:17:11.829 --> 00:17:16.630
one point. So I think that aside from those sequences,
321
00:17:16.710 --> 00:17:20.670
it's kind of got a very dry kind of David
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Fincher style matter of factness.
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00:17:23.210 --> 00:17:26.130
Yeah, it kind of feels like a detective procedural.
324
00:17:26.150 --> 00:17:27.710
I mean, that's a good way to put it. I
325
00:17:27.730 --> 00:17:31.440
feel like David Fincher... kind of invented the modern, well,
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the modern being post-90s detective procedural with Seven, the way
327
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he did Seven. Everybody wanted to do that too, down
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to what we lovingly in the business call Euro trash lighting,
329
00:17:44.210 --> 00:17:49.269
which is lighting things with fluorescents. Or, well, really lighting
330
00:17:49.309 --> 00:17:52.059
things to look like fluorescents because you can't really, back
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then you couldn't unless you had specialized tubes, which you
332
00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:57.980
could get. You could get specialized tubes, but you had
333
00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.680
to have like, it took a lot of prep because
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you'd have to have, they'd have to be for, unless
335
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you had the fixtures built, which a lot of times
336
00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:06.700
bigger movies would, uh, then you would just have the
337
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:09.140
tubes in there anyway. But often we would, uh, we
338
00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:13.180
would salt and pepper, uh, the lighting that we had
339
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.680
that were fluorescent lights, but they were movie lights. They
340
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weren't on the ceilings or anything. Um, and salt and
341
00:18:18.180 --> 00:18:20.299
pepper is just putting one bulb that's balanced to daylight
342
00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:23.559
and one bulb that's balanced to tungsten. So one's blue
343
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and one's orange. And it would kind of give this
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sheen and then, If you really needed it, then you'd
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just boost the green a little or reduce the magenta
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a tiny bit, and then you'd have it. But he
347
00:18:34.269 --> 00:18:36.630
made that really popular, and he made it look cool.
348
00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:43.329
So nearly any procedural movie leaned into this dark atmosphere
349
00:18:43.390 --> 00:18:49.029
with fluorescent lights and very matter-of-fact horrors or tragedies or
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what have you. And I'm not even trying to pick
351
00:18:51.349 --> 00:18:54.009
on Fincher. I think he's a really amazing filmmaker, but
352
00:18:54.029 --> 00:18:57.289
he did establish that. In his early career. I mean,
353
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it's in Alien 3, which was his first feature. It's all, well,
354
00:19:00.170 --> 00:19:01.759
and he came from music videos, which were full of
355
00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:02.980
that too, his music videos.
356
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:03.359
Yeah.
357
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:05.960
So, but yeah, so that was a bit more of
358
00:19:05.980 --> 00:19:07.980
a digression than I meant for it. But, but so
359
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:10.480
that's kind of my point though, is like, so it
360
00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:13.430
has like, it definitely has a sense of the era
361
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of like what people, what the visual palette had become
362
00:19:16.630 --> 00:19:17.250
to the audience.
363
00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:17.630
Mm-hmm.
364
00:19:18.299 --> 00:19:20.440
Which makes sense, because makers are not going to be
365
00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:22.839
immune to it, and it's not like it came out
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00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.519
the year after Seven or anything. It came out like
367
00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:27.460
four or five years later, so why wouldn't it be
368
00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:29.099
inspired by that?
369
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:30.539
Yeah, it's like in the zeitgeist.
370
00:19:30.819 --> 00:19:34.900
Yeah, exactly. So, as you were watching the movie, and
371
00:19:35.869 --> 00:19:37.430
the trippy parts come in.
372
00:19:37.450 --> 00:19:38.069
Mm-hmm.
373
00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:41.470
Because I'm guessing that you may have been diffused by
374
00:19:41.529 --> 00:19:47.089
the non-trippy parts. Yeah, well, what.
375
00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:50.529
What was interesting is like looking back at my notes
376
00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:55.369
because the very very first scene is in the little
377
00:19:55.390 --> 00:19:59.259
kid's head yeah I for the I was having a
378
00:19:59.299 --> 00:20:03.339
very difficult time like kind of pinpointing what was going
379
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.359
on in the mind versus like what is actually happening in.
380
00:20:07.339 --> 00:20:09.890
Real life mm-hmm Well, I think that's very on purpose.
381
00:20:10.210 --> 00:20:14.210
Absolutely it is. And so that just made me even
382
00:20:14.289 --> 00:20:18.140
more engaged because it's that little mystery for like the
383
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:22.359
first act of the film, basically, of figuring out like, okay, wait, no,
384
00:20:22.539 --> 00:20:25.819
is this real life? Okay, no, this is the dream part.
385
00:20:25.940 --> 00:20:27.839
This is the real life part. Wait, this is a
386
00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:29.619
new character. Are they real or not?
387
00:20:29.970 --> 00:20:30.849
Yeah.
388
00:20:31.009 --> 00:20:36.490
So unraveling that mystery just kept me engaged. It made me.
389
00:20:38.089 --> 00:20:44.500
Even more excited when Vince Vaughn's character came, because then
390
00:20:44.539 --> 00:20:46.960
it's like, oh, now we've got someone who's really in
391
00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:48.140
the investigation with us.
392
00:20:48.500 --> 00:20:52.980
Yeah, and he's oddly grounded. Mm-hmm. Well, one of the
393
00:20:53.019 --> 00:20:56.250
things I think he did so well, the movie did
394
00:20:56.329 --> 00:20:59.390
so well, and then Vince Vaughn did so well, is
395
00:20:59.470 --> 00:21:04.160
he's kind of a cliche character. He's a guy who...
396
00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:09.019
because of a court thing and whatever, somebody died, you know,
397
00:21:09.099 --> 00:21:12.920
because he, because I think, wasn't he, I think he
398
00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:13.799
was a prosecutor.
399
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:14.220
Yeah.
400
00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:17.059
And they didn't put this guy away and then he
401
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:20.009
murders this woman and he felt horrible about it. So
402
00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:21.349
he became a detective because he was like, I want
403
00:21:21.390 --> 00:21:23.210
to be a part of Cajun. I'm not anything else.
404
00:21:23.470 --> 00:21:23.650
Yeah.
405
00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:25.410
And I don't want to be whatever, whatever they do
406
00:21:25.450 --> 00:21:27.069
with it. I want to be my hands clean of that.
407
00:21:27.170 --> 00:21:28.789
If they let him go, it's not my fault. I
408
00:21:28.809 --> 00:21:32.460
put him in a cage. That's a very kind of cliche. Like,
409
00:21:32.500 --> 00:21:36.809
you know, I'm, I'm, struggling i don't uh i mean
410
00:21:36.849 --> 00:21:39.190
he has all those cliche moments i mean he's you
411
00:21:39.210 --> 00:21:42.869
know like brushing his teeth at the fbi office.
412
00:21:42.549 --> 00:21:44.990
Where he's clearly just been sleeping at his desk.
413
00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:48.799
Yeah yeah which works because vaughn is great yeah i
414
00:21:48.819 --> 00:21:51.640
mean he sells it he makes it believable or at
415
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.400
least charming because he's he's just he is vince vaughn
416
00:21:54.460 --> 00:21:56.579
i mean there's no doubt yeah he's got the it
417
00:21:56.619 --> 00:22:02.130
factor um but because of the way the movie handles everything,
418
00:22:02.170 --> 00:22:05.809
that cliche for me, doesn't really, it doesn't really hit
419
00:22:06.509 --> 00:22:09.569
in a way that makes me feel, I don't know, uh, uh,
420
00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:12.690
talked down to or anything. I feel like it works.
421
00:22:13.009 --> 00:22:13.210
Yeah.
422
00:22:13.569 --> 00:22:15.089
Um, you know, even though he is kind of like,
423
00:22:15.150 --> 00:22:17.589
I won't let this happen again. That's why I'll never
424
00:22:17.650 --> 00:22:20.380
give up, you know, which is a little chilly, cheesy
425
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:23.940
and silly, uh, chilly, which is cheesy and silly or
426
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:28.190
just cheesy, chilly. Um, you're not allowed to be hungry, but, um,
427
00:22:29.380 --> 00:22:32.359
But I think he nails it really well, and he
428
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.299
does kind of, in an odd way, he kind of
429
00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.660
grounds everything, even though he is kind of an unbelievable
430
00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:42.900
cliché character. So I love that.
431
00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:49.039
But he plays against the clichés of Jennifer Lopez's character
432
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:55.309
really well, because she is the kind of stereotypical... always
433
00:22:55.809 --> 00:23:00.269
always optimistic like in it for the kids child psychologist
434
00:23:00.369 --> 00:23:03.880
like nobody else gets the kids like i do because
435
00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:06.819
you know they're so you know sweet and innocent and
436
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.740
i see eye to eye with them like there's a
437
00:23:08.779 --> 00:23:14.579
very similar uh psychology to the archetypes they're playing it's
438
00:23:14.619 --> 00:23:17.279
just they're you know good cop bad cop kind.
439
00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:20.950
Of i mean yeah i i think that the way
440
00:23:21.049 --> 00:23:24.569
that they, that their dichotomies play is actually really fascinating.
441
00:23:24.750 --> 00:23:27.509
Cause if you look at, you know, Jennifer Lopez and,
442
00:23:27.609 --> 00:23:31.069
and later on, she's like referenced by religious iconography that
443
00:23:31.130 --> 00:23:33.930
actually kind of plays up this like idea that she's
444
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:38.740
oddly pure and she's oddly kind and giving and sincere.
445
00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:41.920
But then you have D'Onofrio's character who is a monster.
446
00:23:41.980 --> 00:23:44.400
I mean, he's just a monster. Like the moment that
447
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:47.640
his introduction scene is, is mortifying and terrifying all at once.
448
00:23:48.210 --> 00:23:50.220
where you see the reality of what he does to
449
00:23:50.259 --> 00:23:56.559
his victims Vaughn to me is oddly grounding because D'Onofrio
450
00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:00.809
is almost, almost a caricature. I mean, because he's just
451
00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:04.230
so monstrous, but, but, but, but because they show you
452
00:24:04.990 --> 00:24:09.089
what he does, you don't laugh or giggle. You're like,
453
00:24:09.210 --> 00:24:12.309
Oh God, you know, so it keeps it that grounded in,
454
00:24:12.390 --> 00:24:15.779
in reality. But, you know, Lopez is a dreamer and
455
00:24:15.940 --> 00:24:21.599
D'Onofrio is a comically evil, I mean, so beyond evil monster.
456
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.829
And then Vaughn is just like hanging out being like, hey,
457
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:26.710
I'm really flawed. I'm just trying to make sense of
458
00:24:26.730 --> 00:24:30.569
all this. He's right in the middle. He's right in
459
00:24:30.589 --> 00:24:33.589
the middle. And I think that that works really well. Yeah.
460
00:24:33.630 --> 00:24:35.589
You know, it plays really well with it.
461
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:36.359
But.
462
00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:38.140
Yeah, I do.
463
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.509
It did, especially like, sorry, I know we're getting ready
464
00:24:41.529 --> 00:24:42.950
to go to a break, but it did.
465
00:24:42.890 --> 00:24:45.430
Especially give, give away the secrets of the show. Jeez.
466
00:24:45.829 --> 00:24:49.309
Um, it, it gave me, especially in the first act,
467
00:24:49.430 --> 00:24:52.369
as we were, as we were learning about the characters,
468
00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:55.190
I got the feeling like this is what would happen
469
00:24:55.390 --> 00:24:57.940
if you took a character from like the original run
470
00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:00.099
of law and order and put them in the matrix.
471
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:01.099
Hmm.
472
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:01.859
Okay.
473
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:05.480
Just, you know, they're super grounded and like, yeah, we've
474
00:25:05.529 --> 00:25:07.490
just got to catch these bad guys. And then it's like,
475
00:25:07.869 --> 00:25:10.349
so anyway, we've got to go into this guy's brain.
476
00:25:10.369 --> 00:25:14.009
You're like, oh, okay. I'm just here to catch the
477
00:25:14.049 --> 00:25:14.970
bad guy, dude.
478
00:25:15.690 --> 00:25:17.950
And just for the record, I mean, it was D'Onofrio
479
00:25:17.990 --> 00:25:20.109
that was on Law & Order Criminal Intent for 10 years.
480
00:25:22.950 --> 00:25:24.980
That's just funny. One of those shows, actually it was
481
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:26.740
D'Onofrio that was on one of those shows. That is funny.
482
00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:29.440
But when we get back, we'll dive a little deeper
483
00:25:29.500 --> 00:25:33.710
into the serial killer and his brain and what it means,
484
00:25:33.869 --> 00:25:36.069
what it all means, right after this.
485
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.539
So, one thing I did notice as we started the film,
486
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:57.279
because the initial score is, like, really discordant, and there's, like,
487
00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:02.910
horns and, like, Middle Eastern, like, stringed instruments and everything.
488
00:26:02.549 --> 00:26:05.329
Which i'm not trying to to steal your digression uh
489
00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:06.930
but i i meant to mention and then i got
490
00:26:07.049 --> 00:26:10.069
sidetracked by us talking about the the dichotomy of the
491
00:26:10.089 --> 00:26:14.430
three main characters yeah um while it is a you
492
00:26:14.450 --> 00:26:16.539
know it was a relatively high budget movie and they
493
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.680
could build all kinds of things um some of the
494
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:21.720
moments that were really surreal where you were kind of
495
00:26:21.740 --> 00:26:25.680
like whoa especially the beginning they filmed those in uh
496
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:30.299
nambia and barcelona spain like on the outskirts oh okay
497
00:26:30.670 --> 00:26:32.069
So that's one of the ways they were able to
498
00:26:32.089 --> 00:26:35.930
kind of get that other world thing. Yeah. Kind of
499
00:26:35.970 --> 00:26:36.609
a world away.
500
00:26:36.829 --> 00:26:37.150
Yeah.
501
00:26:37.450 --> 00:26:40.109
Oh no, that's cool. Cause I do really like like
502
00:26:40.349 --> 00:26:42.990
the change in settings and obviously a lot of them
503
00:26:43.829 --> 00:26:44.759
are stages.
504
00:26:44.779 --> 00:26:45.859
Oh sure. Sure.
505
00:26:46.579 --> 00:26:50.160
But yeah, there is especially like desert scenes. Um, so yeah,
506
00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:53.039
that's really cool. Uh, but yeah, as, as the movie
507
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:57.650
opens on this desert and, um, Jennifer Lopez's character is
508
00:26:57.849 --> 00:27:00.269
riding on a horse and she's in this beautiful white
509
00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:01.029
flowing gown.
510
00:27:01.309 --> 00:27:06.569
Lots of flowing. Lots of flowing imagery. Fabric and such. Yeah.
511
00:27:07.289 --> 00:27:10.569
And I love her costume changes, which we'll talk about
512
00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:14.420
that more. But, you know, the music was really discordant
513
00:27:14.500 --> 00:27:17.380
and the credits came up and said music's by Howard Shore.
514
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:19.400
And I looked at you and I was like, I
515
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:21.599
know that name. I know that composer and I can't
516
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:22.440
remember who it is.
517
00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:23.680
Yeah, Pauly Shore's dead, right?
518
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:23.819
Yeah.
519
00:27:25.869 --> 00:27:26.269
That's a joke.
520
00:27:27.450 --> 00:27:27.970
I hope.
521
00:27:28.170 --> 00:27:29.670
I'm checking to make sure, but yeah, I'm pretty sure.
522
00:27:30.150 --> 00:27:30.569
It's a joke.
523
00:27:30.710 --> 00:27:33.390
I didn't look up his parents, but yeah.
524
00:27:33.589 --> 00:27:36.430
It's a joke. Will he be the father of Pauly Shore,
525
00:27:36.470 --> 00:27:37.490
not the son of Pauly Shore?
526
00:27:38.230 --> 00:27:38.990
No, you're correct.
527
00:27:39.890 --> 00:27:43.329
But he's not. So anyway. No relation. Zero relation. No
528
00:27:43.369 --> 00:27:45.309
relation at all. None.
529
00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:49.109
So, you know, we watched the movie and then I
530
00:27:49.150 --> 00:27:51.970
finally had to look it up and, oh no, Howard Shore.
531
00:27:52.529 --> 00:27:56.269
who composed music for The Silence of the Lambs and Mrs.
532
00:27:56.309 --> 00:27:58.670
Doubtfire and Ed Wood and The Lord of the Rings.
533
00:27:59.630 --> 00:28:00.230
And The Hobbit.
534
00:28:00.490 --> 00:28:04.609
And The Hobbit, which is really funny that, you know,
535
00:28:04.769 --> 00:28:06.450
obviously I'm a huge fan of Lord of the Rings
536
00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:09.509
and The Hobbit. That was a bit of information that
537
00:28:09.529 --> 00:28:12.150
was tucked away in my brain, but I couldn't access it.
538
00:28:13.009 --> 00:28:14.450
I had to look it up, and I just thought
539
00:28:14.470 --> 00:28:17.079
that was really funny, kind of tied into the theme
540
00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:18.410
of the movie a little bit.
541
00:28:18.970 --> 00:28:23.210
Well, you... You're right. I mean, it's awesome. But there's
542
00:28:23.230 --> 00:28:25.730
an even more interesting element to his scoring career because
543
00:28:26.150 --> 00:28:29.309
his first film, I believe that was, yeah, his first
544
00:28:29.369 --> 00:28:34.730
film score for a major film was The Brood, which
545
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.339
was one of David Cronenberg's first films.
546
00:28:37.579 --> 00:28:38.000
Oh, shit.
547
00:28:38.059 --> 00:28:40.740
He's Canadian. And he went on to score all of
548
00:28:40.819 --> 00:28:43.680
Cronenberg's subsequent films except for The Dead Zone.
549
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:44.579
Oh, damn.
550
00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:45.059
I didn't remember that.
551
00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:49.019
So he was a longtime collaborator with Cronenberg. He did
552
00:28:49.259 --> 00:28:54.470
The Fly. But he also scored five or six films
553
00:28:54.529 --> 00:28:55.329
for Scorsese.
554
00:28:55.910 --> 00:28:56.490
Damn.
555
00:28:56.589 --> 00:28:59.450
Including After Hours, which in my opinion is one of
556
00:28:59.470 --> 00:29:02.049
the most underrated Scorsese movies ever. You have not seen it.
557
00:29:03.130 --> 00:29:05.660
I know you haven't because the first time I watched it,
558
00:29:05.670 --> 00:29:07.509
you weren't there. So I know you didn't see it
559
00:29:08.150 --> 00:29:10.410
because I only saw it recently and it blew my mind.
560
00:29:10.470 --> 00:29:12.390
I immediately bought the 4K of that. I was like,
561
00:29:12.410 --> 00:29:15.259
I have to have this around. It's super good. But
562
00:29:15.670 --> 00:29:19.930
he also did the score for Big. from penny marshall
563
00:29:19.950 --> 00:29:22.109
starring tom hanks where tom hanks gets turned into a
564
00:29:22.349 --> 00:29:25.119
from a little boy into a grown-up yeah um he
565
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:29.900
did so many films and that was all before silence
566
00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:32.500
of the lambs you know before one of the biggest
567
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:36.289
movies he he ever did um but he also uh
568
00:29:37.650 --> 00:29:41.619
scored philadelphia which was a another film by john jonathan
569
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.240
demi which also another tom hanks movie the the film
570
00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.869
about hiv oh okay uh and then mrs doubtfire of
571
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:53.950
course which is very very solid and um i mean
572
00:29:53.970 --> 00:29:56.930
i love mrs doubtfire but like uh mrs doubtfire in
573
00:29:56.950 --> 00:30:00.170
philadelphia being your back-to-back scores You might think I'm going
574
00:30:00.190 --> 00:30:01.690
to make a joke about how different they are, and
575
00:30:01.730 --> 00:30:04.829
that's fine. But no, they were like two massively successful
576
00:30:04.869 --> 00:30:07.609
movies that came out right back to each other. Yeah.
577
00:30:07.650 --> 00:30:11.049
Philadelphia won Tom Hanks' first Oscar. Oh, damn. And Mrs.
578
00:30:11.089 --> 00:30:15.150
Doubtfire became, it was a gigantic monster hit. It was everywhere.
579
00:30:16.190 --> 00:30:20.950
So he's had like a really fascinating score. But where
580
00:30:20.970 --> 00:30:27.680
it gets funny is he did David Fincher's Seven and
581
00:30:27.940 --> 00:30:31.950
The Game. So he did two Fincher movies before this. I,
582
00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:35.599
how did I, I love the game, but somehow my
583
00:30:35.619 --> 00:30:37.819
brain did not accept that Fincher was the director. That's
584
00:30:37.859 --> 00:30:41.480
a phenomenal thriller. So, I mean, he, he had done,
585
00:30:41.500 --> 00:30:44.079
and my point is like, he had a, he had
586
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.529
a stellar film score career. And this is all before
587
00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:49.930
he did any of the Hobbit or Lord of the
588
00:30:49.950 --> 00:30:53.029
Rings or anything too. So he had a massive, massive,
589
00:30:53.730 --> 00:30:57.980
fascinating career. And yeah, You know, and then he did
590
00:30:58.269 --> 00:31:00.470
stuff like he scored Dogma.
591
00:31:01.349 --> 00:31:01.430
Oh.
592
00:31:02.710 --> 00:31:05.390
Yeah. And then right after Dogma, he did The Cell.
593
00:31:06.309 --> 00:31:09.730
So in my estimation, from looking at this, this obscene
594
00:31:09.789 --> 00:31:12.109
career that doesn't even end there, I mean, he's still
595
00:31:12.150 --> 00:31:14.549
alive and I think he's still working.
596
00:31:15.190 --> 00:31:15.950
I believe so.
597
00:31:16.829 --> 00:31:21.710
But what's crazy is his career was on such a trajectory.
598
00:31:21.789 --> 00:31:23.730
I feel like they brought him in for The Cell
599
00:31:23.990 --> 00:31:28.269
either because the director was Desperately wanted him or because
600
00:31:28.309 --> 00:31:31.630
the studio wanted to get, to get like, to buy
601
00:31:31.710 --> 00:31:32.849
some cred.
602
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:34.519
Ah, I can see that.
603
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.000
I have it. Cause I, I feel bad. I didn't
604
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:40.319
have the director, right. Uh, the director is, uh, Tarsam Singh. Uh,
605
00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:41.480
that is right.
606
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:41.700
Right.
607
00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:44.279
I got paranoid. Tarsam Singh.
608
00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:44.559
Yeah.
609
00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:48.400
Tarsam Singh. I, as a filmmaker myself, it would be
610
00:31:48.869 --> 00:31:52.210
horribly inappropriate for me to say the wrong director, but he, he,
611
00:31:52.910 --> 00:31:55.650
he had a pretty interesting career. He didn't do a
612
00:31:55.769 --> 00:32:00.210
million huge hits. Um, but I think the cell was his, yeah,
613
00:32:00.230 --> 00:32:03.210
it was his first feature. So, and actually I could
614
00:32:03.230 --> 00:32:06.450
have guessed that simply from, they got the composer that
615
00:32:06.690 --> 00:32:08.950
literally just did an Oscar movie and then did an
616
00:32:09.019 --> 00:32:12.359
Oscar movie three years earlier and has done nothing but massive,
617
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:16.259
massive things. Um, that makes sense. Cause they're trying to like,
618
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.359
you know, set him up for success. Yeah. So, Anyway,
619
00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:23.119
but that's that's I just want to mention that, too. Like,
620
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:26.269
I looked into that composer a tiny bit and just
621
00:32:26.329 --> 00:32:31.250
noticed the obscene amount of notable credits, both in my
622
00:32:31.329 --> 00:32:36.950
personal opinion and in the lexicon of film lovers everywhere. Yeah.
623
00:32:37.130 --> 00:32:40.559
So and when we get back, maybe. We'll talk about
624
00:32:40.579 --> 00:32:43.170
the movie some more. I don't know. Why? What the?
625
00:32:43.950 --> 00:32:47.849
My Alexa just started talking for no reason. That is terrifying.
626
00:32:47.869 --> 00:32:49.849
I think we're haunted. Oh gosh, I'm out of here.
627
00:32:49.869 --> 00:32:52.230
We've got to join Sarah Connor and the resistance.
628
00:32:52.309 --> 00:33:04.369
Oh God.
629
00:33:04.890 --> 00:33:08.180
I want to mention, by the way, The writer of
630
00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:11.130
this film is Mark Protasevich. I think that's how you
631
00:33:11.150 --> 00:33:15.529
say it, Protasevich. And I think that this was a
632
00:33:16.130 --> 00:33:18.930
spec concept he sold to New Line Cinema, which is cool.
633
00:33:19.250 --> 00:33:20.150
Oh, good for him.
634
00:33:20.549 --> 00:33:26.869
He wrote a few unproduced scripts before getting The Cell made.
635
00:33:27.529 --> 00:33:30.240
But after The Cell, he made a few movies that
636
00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:34.140
were big. He made Poseidon in 2006, which I think
637
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:36.670
was a hit. That's during a blind spot when I
638
00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:40.630
didn't go to the movie theaters. Oh, no, was not
639
00:33:40.650 --> 00:33:45.049
a hit. Well, huge budget, $ 160 million and it made 181.
640
00:33:45.049 --> 00:33:49.750
But that's a spicy meatball. But after that, he wrote
641
00:33:49.950 --> 00:33:52.769
I Am Legend. Oh, whoa. And I know you like
642
00:33:52.869 --> 00:33:54.269
I Am Legend. I'm pretty sure.
643
00:33:54.289 --> 00:33:55.190
I do.
644
00:33:55.549 --> 00:33:57.769
I think I've talked to you before about how I like,
645
00:33:57.829 --> 00:33:59.410
that's one of the few ones where I actually like
646
00:33:59.430 --> 00:34:00.349
the movie more than the book.
647
00:34:01.190 --> 00:34:01.529
Wow.
648
00:34:01.910 --> 00:34:02.109
Yeah.
649
00:34:02.250 --> 00:34:03.990
Don't tell anyone else I said that.
650
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.700
I mean, that movie cost $ 150 million and made $ 585 million.
651
00:34:07.779 --> 00:34:10.469
I mean, that was a hit. Then he wrote the
652
00:34:10.530 --> 00:34:18.429
first Thor movie for Marvel. Okay. In 2011. I mean,
653
00:34:18.710 --> 00:34:20.590
he was one of the story developing people, I guess.
654
00:34:21.110 --> 00:34:22.449
But it was interesting because I was looking at this
655
00:34:22.469 --> 00:34:23.590
and I was like, wow, there's a lot of breaks
656
00:34:23.650 --> 00:34:25.030
in there. It doesn't seem like he's working a lot.
657
00:34:25.090 --> 00:34:29.639
He wrote the American version of Oldboy from 2013, which
658
00:34:30.099 --> 00:34:32.780
I liked it, but it's hard to beat Oldboy. And
659
00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:35.449
it was a huge flop. Oh, it would be, they
660
00:34:35.469 --> 00:34:37.250
spent 30 million on it and made five at the
661
00:34:37.269 --> 00:34:37.869
box office.
662
00:34:38.389 --> 00:34:38.550
Ouch.
663
00:34:39.010 --> 00:34:40.800
So I was like, wow, his career hasn't like been
664
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:42.480
that intense. And I was like, oh, but then he
665
00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:47.320
also like created the, uh, Apple TV original series sugar,
666
00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:49.760
which is on its second season right now, I think.
667
00:34:50.380 --> 00:34:50.699
Okay.
668
00:34:50.739 --> 00:34:52.860
And it's, I I've, I've actually, it's on my list
669
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.300
to start watching once I, once I have, uh, another
670
00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.489
slot in my, uh, free, I'm making air quotes, free
671
00:34:58.530 --> 00:35:03.630
time to watch TV. But just a really interesting trajectory.
672
00:35:03.670 --> 00:35:06.590
But it all started with him having a concept for
673
00:35:06.809 --> 00:35:07.269
the cell.
674
00:35:08.130 --> 00:35:08.929
That's so cool.
675
00:35:09.670 --> 00:35:10.309
Yeah, sure.
676
00:35:11.449 --> 00:35:12.650
If you're into that kind of thing.
677
00:35:13.030 --> 00:35:14.800
If you like factoids.
678
00:35:15.619 --> 00:35:16.119
Which we don't.
679
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:21.239
No, sir. No, sir. Not at all. So, but yeah.
680
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:26.960
No, that's really cool. I mean, for a concept that
681
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.780
he came up with himself, I really like this concept.
682
00:35:32.769 --> 00:35:35.510
And I think it's interesting that you mentioned at the
683
00:35:35.550 --> 00:35:40.400
beginning that the movie does kind of play with the
684
00:35:40.539 --> 00:35:45.940
question of how much consent can you give a therapist?
685
00:35:47.980 --> 00:35:50.059
Because that's one of the things that they kind of
686
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:57.760
introduce is when we meet the murderer Carl, he's... drowned
687
00:35:57.780 --> 00:36:01.269
a woman and he's like processing her body but he's
688
00:36:01.309 --> 00:36:04.170
got you know those hooks on his back yeah like.
689
00:36:04.030 --> 00:36:07.949
Suspension suspension yeah and he bleaches them yeah he bleaches
690
00:36:08.010 --> 00:36:09.929
them super white yeah.
691
00:36:09.889 --> 00:36:14.800
Again a purity thing um so he like suspends himself
692
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:18.400
above their bodies to you know like play with himself
693
00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:21.170
and like Get off on it.
694
00:36:21.230 --> 00:36:25.090
He sexually gratifies himself while having this bizarre separation by
695
00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:30.059
being suspended above them. So there's no contact. It's super
696
00:36:30.219 --> 00:36:30.599
out there.
697
00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:34.840
It's super weird. And so they mention that after they
698
00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:39.900
bring in Carl, he's in this vegetative state. And they
699
00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:45.820
remove the hooks. And Jennifer Lopez's character, Catherine, she says, like,
700
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:49.250
you shouldn't have removed the hooks because... he clearly gets
701
00:36:49.289 --> 00:36:54.510
a sense of comfort from the feeling of suspension, of weightlessness.
702
00:36:56.349 --> 00:37:00.239
But then turn around and when she and any other
703
00:37:00.300 --> 00:37:02.780
therapist or anyone else is getting ready to go into
704
00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:07.320
someone's mind, they get suspended up above a table in
705
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.110
a very, very similar manner. And I just, clearly that
706
00:37:12.139 --> 00:37:14.670
is on purpose. It's kind of saying like there is
707
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:20.699
There is kind of like this interplay of, you know,
708
00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:23.739
trust that you have to have between a therapist and,
709
00:37:23.820 --> 00:37:26.929
you know, kind of asking how much trust do you
710
00:37:26.989 --> 00:37:29.230
give them versus someone else?
711
00:37:29.469 --> 00:37:34.730
Well, and I may have sold Catherine Lopez's character a
712
00:37:34.769 --> 00:37:39.760
little too simply. I mean, she's got demons in a way.
713
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:43.199
I mean, they're much milder. I mean, she wants to
714
00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:46.250
save people because she's seen hurt and stuff like that.
715
00:37:47.090 --> 00:37:49.630
And it does kind of open up the question of like,
716
00:37:49.650 --> 00:37:51.389
does she have a savior complex? Like how much is
717
00:37:51.429 --> 00:37:53.710
she doing for others and how much is she doing
718
00:37:53.809 --> 00:37:57.510
kind of for herself? You know, depending on how you
719
00:37:57.530 --> 00:38:02.460
look at it, because she's a child psychologist generally. And
720
00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:05.639
the whole point is that when they find out that
721
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:08.519
this serial killer guy that they've been hunting forever is
722
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:12.710
in a coma, it's just like through whispers. Somebody's like,
723
00:38:12.909 --> 00:38:15.130
I've heard they're doing this thing with coma patients at
724
00:38:15.170 --> 00:38:18.699
this one hospital. Like, it's super experimental and super early.
725
00:38:19.489 --> 00:38:21.300
And then they have to go to the doctors and
726
00:38:21.380 --> 00:38:24.179
suggest this. And they're just like, I mean, that's not
727
00:38:24.219 --> 00:38:26.380
really what we do. And it's like, there are dangers
728
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:29.420
we don't even understand yet. But then it's like, but
729
00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:31.780
we're on a clock. So, like, yes or no. Because
730
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:33.280
if it's no, I got to leave and try to
731
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:34.239
figure something else out.
732
00:38:34.389 --> 00:38:34.590
Yeah.
733
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.210
Because their hope is that when they go into Carl's mind,
734
00:38:37.309 --> 00:38:41.880
they're going to get clues. Mm-hmm. That's literally it. They
735
00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:45.079
just want to get a clue that could help them
736
00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:47.139
figure out something because they've already ran all of his
737
00:38:47.179 --> 00:38:51.440
personal stuff and he doesn't have any secret properties or anything.
738
00:38:51.460 --> 00:38:53.840
There were no clues in his home that they could decipher.
739
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:56.449
So they're just trying to find anything about him that
740
00:38:56.489 --> 00:38:57.769
might tell something.
741
00:38:57.989 --> 00:38:58.170
Yeah.
742
00:38:58.449 --> 00:39:03.750
And of course, Catherine is curious. And one of the
743
00:39:03.809 --> 00:39:07.250
first things that happens when she's really in Carl's mind,
744
00:39:07.329 --> 00:39:12.119
aside from all the terrifying things Imagery that's presented is
745
00:39:12.139 --> 00:39:16.500
we start to see the child Carl. And he's presented
746
00:39:16.659 --> 00:39:21.059
as being abused and neglected and also being oddly protective
747
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:23.050
of her because there's a part where like the dad's
748
00:39:23.090 --> 00:39:26.489
coming and he slams the door shut on the closet,
749
00:39:26.630 --> 00:39:28.070
thereby protecting her.
750
00:39:28.150 --> 00:39:30.539
Yeah, keeping her safe yeah his dad.
751
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:32.360
Except then she's like standing in a bucket of eels
752
00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:35.360
and stuff it's really the movie's wild um one of
753
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:37.519
my favorite moments just because it's like whoa okay okay
754
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:41.309
um but one of the elements that the movie really
755
00:39:41.349 --> 00:39:44.369
gets across that i think is is really valuable is
756
00:39:44.409 --> 00:39:53.119
she keeps encountering young carl but then the evil carl is, like, he's, like,
757
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:57.820
depicts himself as, like, some kind of, like, king.
758
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:59.340
Like a god emperor.
759
00:39:59.739 --> 00:40:01.760
A god emperor is a good way of putting it. But, like,
760
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:08.340
through the styling of, like, really antiquated theater. Mm-hmm. You know,
761
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:12.239
big costume, big hat, big motions, big gestures.
762
00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:15.940
And again, with the big flowing cape and gown and everything.
763
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:20.150
And, and, And we find out very quickly that he has,
764
00:40:20.449 --> 00:40:24.369
you know, an obsession with control. Yeah. With controlling others,
765
00:40:24.449 --> 00:40:28.090
which makes sense because, I mean, that's what he's doing
766
00:40:28.150 --> 00:40:32.030
to the victims is he's controlling them, you know, kidnapping
767
00:40:32.070 --> 00:40:35.030
them and then locking them up and then killing them
768
00:40:35.550 --> 00:40:39.409
on his whims, but then keeping that mild separation. And
769
00:40:39.829 --> 00:40:42.010
that is, that's actually where I was trying to go
770
00:40:42.030 --> 00:40:46.250
with it. I was having trouble finding my footing. That separation.
771
00:40:47.190 --> 00:40:52.110
is kind of like young Carl and the king monster
772
00:40:52.329 --> 00:40:58.400
in his mind. He's trying to be both. Yeah. In
773
00:40:58.460 --> 00:40:58.820
a way.
774
00:40:59.179 --> 00:40:59.360
Yeah.
775
00:40:59.900 --> 00:41:03.360
But the element of the movie that is truly kind
776
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:05.920
of the heartbreaking moment, especially the heartbreaking moment for Catherine,
777
00:41:05.980 --> 00:41:10.559
is she just can't seem to accept that they're not separate.
778
00:41:11.719 --> 00:41:14.610
They're just not. They are literally the same person. They're
779
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:19.219
just two deviations. But they're literally the same. You can't
780
00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:22.619
have one and not the other. They either die or
781
00:41:22.659 --> 00:41:23.139
they don't.
782
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:25.260
Well, and not to jump too far ahead, but that
783
00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:26.699
is kind of like the climax.
784
00:41:27.019 --> 00:41:30.159
Yeah, yeah. But she struggles with that the whole time.
785
00:41:30.659 --> 00:41:33.610
The basic is string writing. Most of it is knowing
786
00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:34.780
what you're supposed to do and trying to decide if
787
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:38.030
you should do it. That's like the ultimate conflict in
788
00:41:38.050 --> 00:41:42.449
almost every script. So that's one thing that really kind
789
00:41:42.489 --> 00:41:48.949
of fascinated me. That and witnessing the child abuse that
790
00:41:49.110 --> 00:41:54.429
Carl experiences as a child and seeing how he had
791
00:41:54.530 --> 00:41:55.550
no control.
792
00:41:55.570 --> 00:41:58.780
And then, yeah.
793
00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:02.619
So he wants ultimate control. But then this weird, this
794
00:42:02.739 --> 00:42:06.760
other weird element where young Carl is like running through
795
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:11.320
this hellscape of memories and yada yada. And the monster
796
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:14.030
king Carl, I'm going to start calling him that. The
797
00:42:14.050 --> 00:42:18.190
monster King Carl is just lording over his dominion, his
798
00:42:18.250 --> 00:42:22.380
dominion of hellish experiences and the hope to hurt someone else.
799
00:42:24.500 --> 00:42:26.300
It's really fascinating.
800
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:26.539
It is.
801
00:42:26.579 --> 00:42:30.340
And it's really, it gets your brain juices going about
802
00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:33.309
like what is going on here and we'll figure more
803
00:42:33.449 --> 00:42:35.929
out right after this or we won't.
804
00:42:50.329 --> 00:42:56.710
Before we get too far, we've discussed the therapist. We've
805
00:42:56.750 --> 00:43:01.579
discussed the detective. We've discussed the murderer.
806
00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:03.300
But I think we should. I know what you're I
807
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:05.300
know where you're going. Yeah, I know where you're going.
808
00:43:05.980 --> 00:43:08.500
We haven't discussed the fact that no one in this
809
00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:12.380
entire damn movie that's inside of the killer's mind or
810
00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:14.320
inside of Jennifer Lopez's mind or inside a little kid's
811
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:17.070
mind ever when something weird happens or something bad happens
812
00:43:17.110 --> 00:43:19.849
or when they're struggling. No one, no one ever went.
813
00:43:20.219 --> 00:43:28.139
do you mind? Sorry. I, I, I, I thought of that.
814
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.420
Like the moment you started talking, it was killing me.
815
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:34.409
But anyway, but you have an actual point. I just,
816
00:43:34.550 --> 00:43:37.190
just the idea, like, like a giant snakes lives by.
817
00:43:37.190 --> 00:43:39.309
I was like, Oh, do you mind? Cause it's a
818
00:43:39.369 --> 00:43:44.210
mind there inside of, and it's just a, uh, like, uh, uh, Dr.
819
00:43:44.230 --> 00:43:49.969
Zayas from planet of the apes. This mind is something. Anyway, Um,
820
00:43:50.250 --> 00:43:51.690
and nobody ever said a mind is a terrible thing
821
00:43:51.710 --> 00:43:53.809
to waste. Like if they saw a trash can or something, uh,
822
00:43:54.949 --> 00:43:58.289
it's so many, they, they wasted potential. They should have
823
00:43:58.309 --> 00:44:01.769
hired me to punch the script up. I was 11.
824
00:44:01.769 --> 00:44:02.389
You could have done it.
825
00:44:02.389 --> 00:44:03.090
I would have nailed it.
826
00:44:03.230 --> 00:44:03.469
Yeah.
827
00:44:03.530 --> 00:44:06.510
Maybe 12. Anyway, but no, you were, you, so we were,
828
00:44:06.570 --> 00:44:08.590
we've been talking a lot about, yeah, you were saying
829
00:44:08.670 --> 00:44:12.460
about the, the, the, the kind of lead three, especially,
830
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.340
you know, the serial killer, the, the, the therapist who,
831
00:44:15.460 --> 00:44:19.300
you know, cares too much. the detective who just won't
832
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:22.860
let this happen again. But you're right, there's another really
833
00:44:22.940 --> 00:44:26.920
interesting character who gets a decent amount of screen time
834
00:44:27.179 --> 00:44:29.760
and it's all really quality screen time.
835
00:44:29.980 --> 00:44:35.639
It all really pays off. So the victim, in air quotes, victim, Julia,
836
00:44:35.980 --> 00:44:40.739
and she is victimized by Carl. So what happens is
837
00:44:41.570 --> 00:44:47.110
after the initial murder, Carl needs to find his next victim.
838
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.579
And he's driving around. He sees some lady, you know,
839
00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:51.880
out in the city.
840
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:56.380
He's driving around with his adorable albino dog, which feeds
841
00:44:56.460 --> 00:44:58.900
into all of it. The whole cleanliness and the bleach
842
00:44:58.960 --> 00:44:59.280
and stuff.
843
00:44:59.320 --> 00:44:59.530
Yeah.
844
00:44:59.619 --> 00:45:00.289
Sorry.
845
00:45:00.550 --> 00:45:03.210
So he does. He has an albino German shepherd, which
846
00:45:03.289 --> 00:45:06.610
is like a big thing. So he's driving around with
847
00:45:06.650 --> 00:45:09.590
his dog. He sees this lady and ends up following her.
848
00:45:10.210 --> 00:45:14.690
And the thing I love about this character is Every
849
00:45:14.809 --> 00:45:17.110
once in a while in a film, you find someone
850
00:45:17.150 --> 00:45:18.309
who does it all right.
851
00:45:19.289 --> 00:45:22.210
Are you talking about like in the air quote, the
852
00:45:22.329 --> 00:45:23.070
victim realm?
853
00:45:23.090 --> 00:45:24.190
The victim realm, yeah.
854
00:45:24.269 --> 00:45:24.909
Like Red Eye.
855
00:45:25.489 --> 00:45:26.780
Exactly like Red Eye.
856
00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:29.559
Which Wes Craven, I think, or maybe it was the writer,
857
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:31.260
the original writer, I can't remember which, one of the
858
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:33.860
creators of Red Eye said that all they wanted to
859
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:36.809
do was make a movie where as you were watching it,
860
00:45:36.860 --> 00:45:38.280
every time you were going to go, why doesn't she,
861
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:39.090
she just does it.
862
00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:39.340
Yeah.
863
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:39.519
Yeah.
864
00:45:40.289 --> 00:45:42.710
And it doesn't, like, that is exactly my experience when
865
00:45:42.750 --> 00:45:45.389
I saw it. So, no, I know exactly what you're saying.
866
00:45:45.730 --> 00:45:48.559
The badass victim. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
867
00:45:48.679 --> 00:45:51.159
The victim that, like, doesn't sit there and just, like,
868
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:57.269
let everything happen. So, our introduction to Julia after that initial, like, just,
869
00:45:57.590 --> 00:46:02.389
you know, Carl making her, objectifying her. That's the word.
870
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.940
Yeah, and literally, like, creating her into an object, not just, like,
871
00:46:05.980 --> 00:46:08.420
looking at her and going, woo! No, but, like, literally. No,
872
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:10.099
he puts her in a box so he can look
873
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:10.420
at her.
874
00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:12.539
Literally objectifying her.
875
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:13.340
Yeah.
876
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:16.820
The introduction is she gets off of work, she's walking
877
00:46:16.909 --> 00:46:21.449
through a parking garage, and she does everything right. And
878
00:46:21.610 --> 00:46:23.929
you and I have talked before. Sorry, didn't mean to
879
00:46:24.010 --> 00:46:25.530
punch the microphone.
880
00:46:25.570 --> 00:46:26.530
Oh, it's fine. I'll send you a bill.
881
00:46:28.730 --> 00:46:31.599
But you and I have discussed before, like, something will
882
00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:33.000
happen in a movie and you're like, no, what do
883
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:36.539
you think? Cause you are a tiny little person. What,
884
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:38.659
what are you thinking in this moment?
885
00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:41.590
Especially stuff like when we watch like Henry or confessions
886
00:46:41.630 --> 00:46:44.409
of a serial killer. And it's like this scene where
887
00:46:44.510 --> 00:46:47.190
like a chick just takes a ride from a guy
888
00:46:47.329 --> 00:46:50.489
and then he makes it like super tense. You know, like,
889
00:46:51.030 --> 00:46:53.179
what do you think? Cause like you, you know, I
890
00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:56.760
could have a version of that experience, but not the
891
00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:57.480
exact version.
892
00:46:57.739 --> 00:46:57.880
Yeah.
893
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:00.210
Experience. Cause I've always got that little, that tinge of like,
894
00:47:00.250 --> 00:47:01.750
I'm a dude, even though I'm not like a tall
895
00:47:01.789 --> 00:47:03.889
dude and I'm not like a tough dude. I can
896
00:47:03.909 --> 00:47:05.829
still like, I can still like maybe punch your skull
897
00:47:05.889 --> 00:47:08.769
and maybe, I mean like it's in there somewhere in my,
898
00:47:09.050 --> 00:47:10.800
but you, it's like, if you punch their skull and
899
00:47:10.820 --> 00:47:13.380
you gotta be really dedicated, you gotta really know how,
900
00:47:13.659 --> 00:47:16.179
you know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't, it's, it's, it's,
901
00:47:16.219 --> 00:47:18.579
it's very primal. It's a primal lizard thing.
902
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:23.969
Oh, absolutely. So this, this lady does everything right. In
903
00:47:23.989 --> 00:47:25.889
that when she gets off work, she's going through a
904
00:47:26.030 --> 00:47:27.730
dark car park all alone.
905
00:47:27.789 --> 00:47:28.969
Could you say that three times fast?
906
00:47:29.349 --> 00:47:31.949
No. We got one, and that's it.
907
00:47:32.329 --> 00:47:38.179
That is the correct answer. I started the show, I
908
00:47:38.539 --> 00:47:40.599
was worried I was getting a really bad headache, if
909
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:43.440
I'm honest. And all of a sudden, I'm not, and
910
00:47:43.500 --> 00:47:50.090
now I am feeling perky. I like it. And everyone
911
00:47:50.130 --> 00:47:51.690
has to pay the price on that.
912
00:47:51.710 --> 00:47:51.889
Oh, no.
913
00:47:53.070 --> 00:47:54.730
But I don't want you to lose your thoughts, though.
914
00:47:54.750 --> 00:47:56.070
I just want to have fun with it.
915
00:47:56.389 --> 00:47:59.730
So she's walking through the car, the parking garage. She
916
00:47:59.789 --> 00:48:03.909
is parked under a light. She's parked near a door. She,
917
00:48:04.070 --> 00:48:06.670
you know, looks around. She has her keys, you know,
918
00:48:06.710 --> 00:48:09.349
between her fingers as she's walking up to her car.
919
00:48:09.730 --> 00:48:13.170
She gets in the car, immediately starts it, doesn't even
920
00:48:13.250 --> 00:48:15.570
stop to buckle before she starts backing up.
921
00:48:15.650 --> 00:48:15.869
Yeah.
922
00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:19.480
And then you hear, and she looks in the rearview
923
00:48:19.539 --> 00:48:24.230
mirror and there's the white dog. And that's why I
924
00:48:24.289 --> 00:48:26.340
love this movie is because like that would have got me.
925
00:48:27.179 --> 00:48:27.400
Yeah.
926
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.440
I would have gotten out of the car.
927
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:32.670
And then in a hilarious turn of events last night,
928
00:48:32.730 --> 00:48:34.750
you saw used cars for the first time and saw
929
00:48:34.789 --> 00:48:37.969
the exact same gag used to sell a station wagon. Sorry,
930
00:48:38.010 --> 00:48:40.469
it's just, I literally, as you were saying, like, the
931
00:48:40.489 --> 00:48:42.730
backup thing, and I'm remembering, I'm like, oh, yeah. That's
932
00:48:42.750 --> 00:48:45.650
literally what he does. Oh, my dog!
933
00:48:45.670 --> 00:48:47.110
You killed my dog!
934
00:48:47.630 --> 00:48:50.659
He would have wanted you to have this gently used
935
00:48:50.659 --> 00:48:53.500
1977 station wagon for your beautiful family.
936
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:54.719
We'll buy it.
937
00:48:54.739 --> 00:48:58.019
We'll buy it. And the undercoating. Yeah, the undercoating, too.
938
00:48:58.260 --> 00:48:58.719
Thank you.
939
00:48:59.380 --> 00:49:03.360
Sorry that was fun it was really funny but no
940
00:49:03.380 --> 00:49:06.440
no you're right he uses a classic and you know
941
00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.679
you know that ted bundy one of his moves was
942
00:49:09.949 --> 00:49:13.110
i'm i'm trying to find my lost dog yeah sorry
943
00:49:13.150 --> 00:49:15.969
to go back to the reality of the conversation yeah
944
00:49:16.110 --> 00:49:19.090
it was it was a move because women have i
945
00:49:19.590 --> 00:49:21.300
mean i have a soft spot for animals, but women
946
00:49:21.380 --> 00:49:23.400
tend to have a very, I wouldn't even call it
947
00:49:23.420 --> 00:49:25.579
a soft spot. They also have like a cruel hard
948
00:49:25.659 --> 00:49:29.010
spot for animals. When, uh, when John wick was being
949
00:49:29.070 --> 00:49:32.349
test on screen for test audiences, they were worried. Well,
950
00:49:32.369 --> 00:49:33.789
they weren't worried, but they knew the movie was like
951
00:49:33.829 --> 00:49:36.010
appealing to men. And when they got their questionnaires, they
952
00:49:36.030 --> 00:49:39.500
were like, okay, um, what did you think of the
953
00:49:39.539 --> 00:49:41.699
dog dying? And they were like, oh my God, it's horrible.
954
00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:44.840
And they were like about 50% of men or so
955
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:47.389
were like, that's, that's like the worst thing ever. About
956
00:49:47.389 --> 00:49:50.670
85% of women were like, that is the worst thing ever.
957
00:49:51.050 --> 00:49:53.889
But then about 90% of women were like, he should
958
00:49:53.909 --> 00:49:58.090
have killed them worse. Like, like they wanted way more
959
00:49:58.210 --> 00:50:02.150
justice for the dog. So I just, I love that story.
960
00:50:02.210 --> 00:50:04.510
Cause it's, it's a perfectly paints a picture, but yeah.
961
00:50:04.530 --> 00:50:08.139
So like, and plus like, if you're a dog lover,
962
00:50:09.070 --> 00:50:12.329
The only thing you could imagine worse than killing somebody's
963
00:50:12.389 --> 00:50:16.469
dog would be then leaving. Right. Like if you're going
964
00:50:16.489 --> 00:50:19.090
to kill a dog by I mean, if you accidentally
965
00:50:19.110 --> 00:50:21.130
kill a dog, you should try to get it to
966
00:50:21.190 --> 00:50:23.190
its owner to at least give the owner some peace
967
00:50:23.210 --> 00:50:26.130
of mind of like, this was an accident. I'm so sorry. Exactly.
968
00:50:26.190 --> 00:50:28.230
Even though they may be mad, it's something they can
969
00:50:28.389 --> 00:50:31.130
they could sit with longer. Well, the person really didn't
970
00:50:31.190 --> 00:50:32.510
mean it, though. It was an accident.
971
00:50:32.530 --> 00:50:34.090
At least they showed they cared.
972
00:50:34.170 --> 00:50:36.630
I told you that story about my buddy Andrew's dad
973
00:50:37.230 --> 00:50:40.980
accidentally ran over a dog. Oh, no. Oh, it's unfortunately
974
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:41.969
a funny story.
975
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:42.389
Oh.
976
00:50:43.139 --> 00:50:46.010
Because he was riding his motorcycle and he accidentally hit
977
00:50:46.050 --> 00:50:48.530
this dog. And he didn't know, it wasn't his neighborhood,
978
00:50:48.550 --> 00:50:51.949
so he didn't know whose dog it was. So Andrew
979
00:50:52.090 --> 00:50:55.090
was maybe four, three, four. He was really young. And
980
00:50:55.110 --> 00:50:56.849
he had him bungee corded to the front of him.
981
00:50:56.869 --> 00:50:59.150
That's how he rode with him. Okay. Like a poose,
982
00:50:59.230 --> 00:51:00.090
but it's bungee cords.
983
00:51:00.130 --> 00:51:00.429
Yeah, yeah.
984
00:51:00.630 --> 00:51:02.630
This story is literally a nothing good ever happens. And
985
00:51:02.670 --> 00:51:07.639
it's literally Andrew's dad's story. But so Andrew's dad, dog
986
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:11.760
lover forever. His motorcycle club was called family dog. I mean,
987
00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:15.079
like he is, he always loved dogs. So he picks
988
00:51:15.139 --> 00:51:18.400
this poor bloody dog up and he just knocks on
989
00:51:18.619 --> 00:51:22.530
every door. Is this your dog? But the part that's
990
00:51:22.659 --> 00:51:27.230
funny is the, the image of what it, this biker
991
00:51:28.809 --> 00:51:31.710
covered in blood, holding a dead dog with a baby
992
00:51:31.789 --> 00:51:36.960
strapped to his chest is knocking on your door. It's awful,
993
00:51:37.179 --> 00:51:40.340
but it's like, what a frigging image, you know? And
994
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:42.420
they did find the people and he, you know, he,
995
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:44.500
he sat with them and said, I'm like, I'm so sorry.
996
00:51:44.539 --> 00:51:47.269
It ran out in the street and I couldn't, you know, and, and,
997
00:51:47.869 --> 00:51:50.150
and he was able to, Andrew said that the lady
998
00:51:50.210 --> 00:51:52.429
was much more understanding. Cause he was like, I couldn't
999
00:51:52.449 --> 00:51:55.349
like veer hard. Cause I'm, I'm, I got my, I
1000
00:51:55.389 --> 00:51:57.320
got my three-year-old with me and she was like, no, no.
1001
00:51:57.380 --> 00:52:00.219
I mean, you can't want to do that, you know? So,
1002
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:05.019
but that image is forever. And I'm sorry about all
1003
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:07.599
my digressions. When we come back, we will talk about
1004
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:26.760
her getting abducted by the serial killer. Maybe right after this. So, Julia.
1005
00:52:27.659 --> 00:52:30.760
That reminds me about the Monopoly man. I'm just kidding.
1006
00:52:31.139 --> 00:52:34.690
I am 100% kidding. I have no digression. I just
1007
00:52:34.849 --> 00:52:36.469
thought it would be funny to let you get like
1008
00:52:36.510 --> 00:52:37.090
three words out.
1009
00:52:37.150 --> 00:52:38.070
The Monopoly man.
1010
00:52:38.429 --> 00:52:40.030
So Julia thinks she's hit this little doggy.
1011
00:52:40.050 --> 00:52:42.630
She thinks she's hit the dog. She gets out of
1012
00:52:42.670 --> 00:52:45.969
the car, and that's when Carl comes up behind and
1013
00:52:46.030 --> 00:52:50.559
gets her. And that, as an audience member, that would
1014
00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:51.000
have got me.
1015
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:51.659
Absolutely.
1016
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:56.639
But what's great is There's, you know, there's a short
1017
00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:59.280
period of time, you know, as we as the audience
1018
00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:04.900
will occasionally tune in to Julia caught in this cell
1019
00:53:05.019 --> 00:53:10.460
and like there's no apparent help for her. She's not
1020
00:53:10.820 --> 00:53:13.420
your average passive victim.
1021
00:53:13.719 --> 00:53:13.960
No.
1022
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:18.800
She pretty quickly after like a good while of waiting,
1023
00:53:18.920 --> 00:53:23.550
I would guess in movie about six hours, eight hours, 10,
1024
00:53:23.550 --> 00:53:24.730
maybe at maximum.
1025
00:53:24.829 --> 00:53:25.010
Yeah.
1026
00:53:25.539 --> 00:53:29.480
Um, she immediately starts looking around, around her cell. Like,
1027
00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:32.570
what can I use? What can I do? There's not
1028
00:53:32.619 --> 00:53:35.389
a door. Like there's not, it's a, it's a glass
1029
00:53:35.510 --> 00:53:38.250
plexiglass cell. There's nothing. It's what, is there anything on
1030
00:53:38.289 --> 00:53:38.829
the ground?
1031
00:53:38.909 --> 00:53:41.829
I'm pretty sure he welded her in because they established
1032
00:53:41.849 --> 00:53:46.250
that he has this like machining building expertise. And we
1033
00:53:46.269 --> 00:53:51.710
should mention the, the literal cell. Cause there's one literal cell.
1034
00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:56.610
Is in like an oil refinery building that like it's
1035
00:53:56.690 --> 00:53:58.210
underground in the middle of the desert.
1036
00:53:58.429 --> 00:53:58.630
Yeah.
1037
00:53:58.969 --> 00:54:00.170
So it's kind of like a place where you would
1038
00:54:00.230 --> 00:54:01.909
only know about it if you talk to some guy
1039
00:54:01.949 --> 00:54:03.909
who knew that there used to be a refinery out there.
1040
00:54:04.010 --> 00:54:04.590
Exactly.
1041
00:54:05.389 --> 00:54:09.840
Which is another wonderful touch of how like of the
1042
00:54:09.969 --> 00:54:12.059
atmosphere and stuff is that it's out in the desert.
1043
00:54:12.139 --> 00:54:14.500
So she doesn't and she doesn't even know where she
1044
00:54:14.619 --> 00:54:16.380
that she's in the middle of nowhere locked up. She
1045
00:54:16.420 --> 00:54:18.460
just knows she's in this box that has no apparent
1046
00:54:18.579 --> 00:54:23.289
entrance whatsoever. Because it's been sealed by a welding, like
1047
00:54:23.349 --> 00:54:28.219
by welding, which is just terrifying. But yeah, she's immediately
1048
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:33.059
hunting for something to some way, some anything. Anything, yeah.
1049
00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:37.000
A screw, a vent, anything. Because the other thing that's
1050
00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:39.699
kind of crazy about that cell, I mean, it's built
1051
00:54:40.699 --> 00:54:44.179
with an odd amount of honesty. It has a drain.
1052
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:47.059
It has a toilet. It has a sink. It has
1053
00:54:47.099 --> 00:54:48.800
a way for her to get a little bit of food.
1054
00:54:50.150 --> 00:54:54.389
It has ventilation so she can breathe, which is terrifying
1055
00:54:55.090 --> 00:54:58.940
because it means that he wants it to legitimately be
1056
00:54:59.139 --> 00:55:02.719
livable until he decides you're dead. Yeah, until it's not.
1057
00:55:02.860 --> 00:55:05.559
Then it can fill with water. Yeah. And I think
1058
00:55:05.579 --> 00:55:08.130
that's actually scarier. Like, I think it would be less
1059
00:55:08.170 --> 00:55:09.309
scary if he's like, it's just a box you're going
1060
00:55:09.329 --> 00:55:11.789
to die in. So, like, the air is going to
1061
00:55:11.809 --> 00:55:12.349
get pretty thin.
1062
00:55:12.369 --> 00:55:12.769
Oh, yeah.
1063
00:55:12.809 --> 00:55:14.909
You know, shrug. Yeah, yeah. But no, it's like this
1064
00:55:14.969 --> 00:55:16.889
is built so you could stay in here for months.
1065
00:55:16.929 --> 00:55:20.389
There's a shower. You know, there's everything you need to
1066
00:55:20.449 --> 00:55:23.889
be okay. A bed. Like, I think that's scarier.
1067
00:55:24.110 --> 00:55:28.320
It absolutely. Because it shows the level of planning and awareness.
1068
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:33.360
And the opposite as well. The level of planning and awareness,
1069
00:55:33.380 --> 00:55:37.989
but also how far compartmentalized his brain is. Oh, yeah.
1070
00:55:38.010 --> 00:55:40.170
They're just going to die in there. But it's like, no,
1071
00:55:40.289 --> 00:55:41.969
but the whole point of why I can do this
1072
00:55:42.030 --> 00:55:43.750
is because they're not going to die, but then they die.
1073
00:55:43.789 --> 00:55:46.530
But it's not really me. It's just a timer I set,
1074
00:55:46.550 --> 00:55:50.809
which isn't me. That's what makes that's because that's insanity. Well, yeah.
1075
00:55:50.869 --> 00:55:53.630
And they go into that level of insanity, that level
1076
00:55:53.670 --> 00:55:56.969
of psychosis toward the climax of the film when he
1077
00:55:57.050 --> 00:56:02.500
explains the first time he drowned something that it was
1078
00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:05.659
the first time it was an act of mercy. And
1079
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:09.699
so there is that level of separation. But to him,
1080
00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:13.019
death is purity, which, again, is really insane.
1081
00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:13.780
So it's like.
1082
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:16.639
It feeds into it like this whole thing.
1083
00:56:16.739 --> 00:56:21.739
And it's tied to his abusive dad who very abusively
1084
00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:26.579
in his way of doing it baptized him. So I
1085
00:56:26.619 --> 00:56:31.349
think that might be where he got the cleansing concept. Yeah. So,
1086
00:56:32.250 --> 00:56:35.230
you know, the layers upon layers make make for a
1087
00:56:35.289 --> 00:56:39.300
tasty onion in this in this movie. But I'm sorry,
1088
00:56:39.539 --> 00:56:41.619
I got stuck in the weeds because I just kept
1089
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:43.760
thinking about the amount of effort to make it a
1090
00:56:43.900 --> 00:56:47.599
real livable space when you're just going to kill them.
1091
00:56:48.199 --> 00:56:51.690
It's just a level of cuckoo bananas that we can't
1092
00:56:51.829 --> 00:56:54.349
actually sit in and really get.
1093
00:56:54.809 --> 00:56:54.949
Right.
1094
00:56:54.989 --> 00:56:56.590
And that makes me so scared.
1095
00:56:56.849 --> 00:56:57.369
Yeah.
1096
00:56:57.409 --> 00:56:59.889
There are elements of compulsion I can at least get,
1097
00:57:00.690 --> 00:57:03.250
but I don't get that. If I'm like, I'm not
1098
00:57:03.269 --> 00:57:05.670
going to eat potato chips anymore because I've gained too
1099
00:57:05.690 --> 00:57:09.050
much weight, I don't come up with an elaborate... Thing
1100
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.980
that makes me honest while also dishonest at the same time.
1101
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:14.960
That's insane.
1102
00:57:15.059 --> 00:57:15.380
It is.
1103
00:57:15.460 --> 00:57:18.559
It's just truly crazy. Sorry. And I guess I really
1104
00:57:18.579 --> 00:57:19.860
just want to say, like, what great writing.
1105
00:57:20.260 --> 00:57:21.039
Oh, absolutely.
1106
00:57:21.059 --> 00:57:21.340
Yeah.
1107
00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:25.440
No, because there's I mean, there's a lot that is
1108
00:57:25.780 --> 00:57:31.659
spelled out. But the all the information that we get about,
1109
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:34.869
you know, the construction of the cell that Carl keeps
1110
00:57:34.909 --> 00:57:38.829
his victims in, how long he's been doing this. The
1111
00:57:38.949 --> 00:57:42.630
process that he uses after, we all get that kind of, like,
1112
00:57:42.730 --> 00:57:49.489
secondhand just hints throughout the movie. And going back to
1113
00:57:49.530 --> 00:57:52.480
what you're saying, like, I feel like that's even scarier
1114
00:57:52.500 --> 00:57:55.920
than having this whole exposition of, well, the first time
1115
00:57:55.960 --> 00:57:58.559
he killed was this time, and then, you know, this
1116
00:57:58.619 --> 00:58:00.480
is how he does it. It's like, no, you have to, like,
1117
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:03.780
piece it together yourself in much the same way that
1118
00:58:03.820 --> 00:58:04.619
Julia does.
1119
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:04.989
Mm-hmm.
1120
00:58:05.329 --> 00:58:11.389
Because she's learning about this process via demonstration.
1121
00:58:12.110 --> 00:58:16.070
Yes. Quite realistically. Yes.
1122
00:58:16.289 --> 00:58:19.760
But again, she is not passive. So she finds a
1123
00:58:19.800 --> 00:58:25.860
way to at least continue surviving until help does arrive.
1124
00:58:26.659 --> 00:58:29.639
And I really like that because, you know, I feel
1125
00:58:29.659 --> 00:58:35.010
like sometimes it's tempting to To, you know, just use
1126
00:58:35.070 --> 00:58:37.889
victims as like just a means to the end of
1127
00:58:37.929 --> 00:58:40.690
the story. But with this, I feel like, no, Julia
1128
00:58:40.750 --> 00:58:43.409
has her own arc in this.
1129
00:58:43.590 --> 00:58:44.070
She does.
1130
00:58:44.150 --> 00:58:44.670
I love that.
1131
00:58:44.969 --> 00:58:48.210
And the fact that due to her not being a
1132
00:58:48.369 --> 00:58:51.369
main character, like a main, main character, there's definitely three
1133
00:58:51.409 --> 00:58:54.570
main characters in this film. The fact that we would
1134
00:58:54.610 --> 00:58:58.150
like be not with her and then come back and
1135
00:58:58.269 --> 00:59:02.809
she's done stuff, it gives her a dimension. And, but
1136
00:59:02.849 --> 00:59:06.639
this is the thing. This is the cruelty though. The
1137
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:11.409
fact that she is so smart and that she is
1138
00:59:11.550 --> 00:59:16.610
figuring out how to breathe through one little pipe a
1139
00:59:16.659 --> 00:59:20.019
little while longer, which she couldn't sustain forever. Right, right.
1140
00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:24.059
All of those elements are great, but they make her
1141
00:59:24.159 --> 00:59:29.400
more believable, which makes it more heartbreaking if she dies.
1142
00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:29.820
Mm-hmm.
1143
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:33.480
And that's kind of where it gets cruel, though, is
1144
00:59:33.500 --> 00:59:35.480
when you mentioned the idea of it just being a
1145
00:59:35.619 --> 00:59:37.300
means to an end. Not just, but being a means
1146
00:59:37.340 --> 00:59:38.510
to an end. Because we don't want to say just,
1147
00:59:38.530 --> 00:59:43.090
because everything that's in a movie is a storytelling mechanism. Yeah.
1148
00:59:43.130 --> 00:59:46.650
Because it's a storytelling exercise, is making a movie. I remember,
1149
00:59:46.670 --> 00:59:49.190
because this was about sexual violence. I had a conversation
1150
00:59:49.219 --> 00:59:50.429
with somebody years and years ago. They were like, I
1151
00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:52.940
hate the idea that it's just a storytelling mechanism. And
1152
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:55.539
I was like, but everything that happens in the movie
1153
00:59:55.719 --> 00:59:56.860
is a storytelling mechanism.
1154
00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:58.039
Because it's just a story.
1155
00:59:58.059 --> 00:59:58.139
Yeah.
1156
00:59:58.650 --> 01:00:00.150
It would be worse if you put some kind of
1157
01:00:00.190 --> 01:00:01.869
sexual violence in a movie and it had nothing to
1158
01:00:01.889 --> 01:00:06.389
do with anything. It didn't affect anything. That's bad. That's
1159
01:00:06.409 --> 01:00:10.039
just exploitation. But if it pushes the story along or
1160
01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:13.760
if it causes the climax or if it causes the
1161
01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:17.159
resolution or if it causes the main character to finally
1162
01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:20.340
become a part of the story we're seeing to become
1163
01:00:20.380 --> 01:00:24.860
the protagonist fully. That's, that makes it matter. But if
1164
01:00:24.920 --> 01:00:27.389
it just happens and then nothing else happens, it's like, uh,
1165
01:00:27.500 --> 01:00:29.260
I guess at least it's not a story point. It's
1166
01:00:29.480 --> 01:00:33.679
stupidest criticism I'd ever heard. But not, you didn't say it.
1167
01:00:33.900 --> 01:00:36.300
No, but you can pretend I did though, if that
1168
01:00:36.340 --> 01:00:36.659
makes sense.
1169
01:00:36.679 --> 01:00:38.119
Oh, as a little treat for myself?
1170
01:00:38.239 --> 01:00:38.420
Yeah.
1171
01:00:38.579 --> 01:00:41.380
Well, speaking of treats for ourselves, we'll, uh, we'll be
1172
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:44.860
diving deeper into some, uh, other cells, which at some
1173
01:00:44.909 --> 01:00:47.789
point we're going to have to have a knockdown drag
1174
01:00:47.849 --> 01:00:50.989
out of how many cells are there? Oh God. Not
1175
01:00:51.030 --> 01:00:53.460
yet though. That's coming later toward the end of the show.
1176
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:54.519
But we'll be back.
1177
01:01:06.550 --> 01:01:11.679
So the the scenes with Julia give this really great
1178
01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:17.219
juxtaposition because she is so, you know, she's so rooted
1179
01:01:17.340 --> 01:01:21.380
in reality, not just because she's the one stuck in
1180
01:01:21.420 --> 01:01:24.329
the cell but she's the one you know like who
1181
01:01:24.389 --> 01:01:27.050
has the most agency to like do the most in
1182
01:01:27.070 --> 01:01:29.929
the moment because they're all stuck just trying to get
1183
01:01:29.969 --> 01:01:34.989
information on where she is but it's a beautiful juxtaposition
1184
01:01:35.050 --> 01:01:37.840
because you've got her scenes and then you've got the
1185
01:01:38.619 --> 01:01:44.599
scenes with Vince Vaughn's character and Jennifer Lopez's character when
1186
01:01:44.619 --> 01:01:52.190
they're in Carl's mind and it's all like giant staircases
1187
01:01:52.329 --> 01:01:57.210
leading up into the sky and like a really long
1188
01:01:57.309 --> 01:02:00.420
hallway full of clocks. And there's a horse that gets,
1189
01:02:00.460 --> 01:02:04.320
you know, sliced into all of those different sections.
1190
01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:07.659
Yeah. Right from the get go, we get that like
1191
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:11.139
shocking little bit of 2000 CGI horror.
1192
01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:15.059
Which is even creepier because it's early 2000 CGI.
1193
01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:16.400
You're goddamn right it is.
1194
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:19.860
But it, that was also a really great scene because
1195
01:02:19.909 --> 01:02:23.969
it kind of, it shows that while Carl is an
1196
01:02:25.190 --> 01:02:29.829
absolute monster, that's not all there is to him. There
1197
01:02:29.929 --> 01:02:34.269
is that child Carl because child Carl sees that she's
1198
01:02:34.289 --> 01:02:35.929
going to get sliced up just like the horse. He
1199
01:02:35.969 --> 01:02:38.590
pushes her out of the way and saves her. We
1200
01:02:38.630 --> 01:02:42.420
kind of learn, you know, a little bit about him,
1201
01:02:42.500 --> 01:02:47.239
that there is something there that does care. It's just like,
1202
01:02:48.070 --> 01:02:52.090
small and stunted and it's scared and lost and trapped
1203
01:02:52.190 --> 01:02:56.239
and trapped in his mind um but there's there's other
1204
01:02:56.320 --> 01:03:01.059
scenes where we meet the the god king carl and
1205
01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:06.079
um you know he's in these giant uh you know
1206
01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:12.559
like marble palace with like these huge um columns and
1207
01:03:12.619 --> 01:03:19.380
he's got a a long uh billowing cloak that's tied
1208
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:20.760
to his back with hooks.
1209
01:03:21.780 --> 01:03:31.889
And I like how lots of the gruesome realities are motifs. Yeah.
1210
01:03:32.090 --> 01:03:35.369
In the inside their mind. So like the hooks are
1211
01:03:35.389 --> 01:03:38.730
a motif, but in reality they're just these metal things
1212
01:03:38.880 --> 01:03:42.579
jabbed into flesh. I think that stuff is really, really fascinating.
1213
01:03:42.900 --> 01:03:43.119
It is.
1214
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:46.980
And there's, you know, obviously the motif of water. The
1215
01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:51.420
first time that Catherine goes into Carl's mind, she's kind
1216
01:03:51.440 --> 01:03:57.230
of like ushered in through a series of visions and
1217
01:03:57.349 --> 01:04:02.650
images involving water. So Carl's baptism slash drowning or his
1218
01:04:02.710 --> 01:04:06.800
dog shaking water in super slow-mo, shaking water off of
1219
01:04:06.860 --> 01:04:09.000
its back. Or, you know, she comes out of a
1220
01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:13.860
sewer when she initially erupts into his mind. So there's
1221
01:04:13.900 --> 01:04:17.369
a lot of symbology involved. And we start to learn
1222
01:04:17.650 --> 01:04:20.889
that that's like the big, that's kind of the big
1223
01:04:20.989 --> 01:04:25.099
issue is they are on a clue finding mission. How
1224
01:04:25.139 --> 01:04:28.019
do you find clues when literally everything is a symbol?
1225
01:04:28.340 --> 01:04:28.619
Yeah.
1226
01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:31.380
And, and one element, and I'm going to warn you
1227
01:04:31.619 --> 01:04:35.360
right now that I have like a lot, I I've,
1228
01:04:36.190 --> 01:04:38.289
I've been stewing on this for a little while. Um,
1229
01:04:39.579 --> 01:04:41.679
But I have a lot of thoughts and opinions and
1230
01:04:41.780 --> 01:04:45.300
theory and alternate theories about what things could mean in
1231
01:04:45.340 --> 01:04:48.369
this movie. Once we're talking about the once we're talking
1232
01:04:48.389 --> 01:04:50.269
about it's over and we're just talking about the whole
1233
01:04:50.309 --> 01:04:51.429
thing is a one big piece.
1234
01:04:51.730 --> 01:04:51.929
Yeah.
1235
01:04:51.989 --> 01:04:54.309
I have a lot of thoughts. Okay. I'm just warning
1236
01:04:54.329 --> 01:04:56.289
you now because it's going to get it's going to
1237
01:04:56.309 --> 01:04:59.840
get brutal. But I actually love this movie. I and
1238
01:04:59.860 --> 01:05:02.199
I don't think that any of the interpretations I got
1239
01:05:02.260 --> 01:05:03.400
from it are bad.
1240
01:05:03.969 --> 01:05:04.250
Yeah.
1241
01:05:04.329 --> 01:05:06.650
Like or make the movie not good. It's just that
1242
01:05:06.710 --> 01:05:09.789
like I think there is a very positive way to
1243
01:05:09.829 --> 01:05:14.539
understand the end. And there is a very soul crushing
1244
01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:17.539
way to understand the way this movie ends. I believe that.
1245
01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:19.380
And I think they're all probably true.
1246
01:05:19.739 --> 01:05:22.659
I'm curious because I mostly just got the positive.
1247
01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:26.150
Oh, well, we'll get to that. I figure we'll we
1248
01:05:26.170 --> 01:05:27.969
want to let's get through the other stuff because once
1249
01:05:28.010 --> 01:05:30.670
we've once we've finished talking about the pieces we like.
1250
01:05:31.449 --> 01:05:33.170
then we can judge the whole piece.
1251
01:05:33.409 --> 01:05:33.789
Okay.
1252
01:05:34.570 --> 01:05:37.690
But one thing I wanted to mention about his world
1253
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:45.679
being so confusing and chaotic, in a way you could
1254
01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:50.980
read that as, oh, well, everybody's mind is kind of different.
1255
01:05:51.019 --> 01:05:52.980
It's kind of what it's been built around. And obviously
1256
01:05:53.019 --> 01:05:57.170
his mind has been built around horrific shit. Or you
1257
01:05:57.190 --> 01:06:00.699
could look at it as, your sanity is holding you
1258
01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:06.340
back from understanding what you're seeing. You just made the
1259
01:06:06.510 --> 01:06:11.349
perfect Bugs Bunny face when he's not sure if he
1260
01:06:11.389 --> 01:06:13.730
believes that or not, where your lower lip got really
1261
01:06:13.769 --> 01:06:16.329
low and your upper lip followed it. That was really funny.
1262
01:06:17.190 --> 01:06:18.150
I wish you all could have seen that.
1263
01:06:18.170 --> 01:06:19.190
Lil Blank would be proud.
1264
01:06:19.349 --> 01:06:22.050
Damn right. But that's one thing I thought about too,
1265
01:06:22.090 --> 01:06:24.599
is maybe one of the reasons it comes off so
1266
01:06:25.559 --> 01:06:29.619
like that is because sanity holds you back from following
1267
01:06:29.719 --> 01:06:32.769
his lead. But I'm not a hundred percent that I
1268
01:06:32.809 --> 01:06:35.050
believe that. Cause like the kids world is a bit
1269
01:06:35.510 --> 01:06:37.809
dramatic too, but it's not nearly as confusing.
1270
01:06:38.090 --> 01:06:38.309
No.
1271
01:06:38.869 --> 01:06:42.929
But then also with his desire for control and his
1272
01:06:42.989 --> 01:06:46.150
desire to be a God, you know, with the evil
1273
01:06:46.269 --> 01:06:49.670
King car, cause he has, he actually calls himself, um, Oh,
1274
01:06:49.769 --> 01:06:52.869
he calls himself, uh, uh, King Starger.
1275
01:06:53.760 --> 01:06:54.360
Yeah.
1276
01:06:54.449 --> 01:06:57.550
Yeah. But I like calling him just like, you know,
1277
01:06:58.949 --> 01:07:03.730
Lizard Queen Carl or whatever. But there is an element
1278
01:07:03.750 --> 01:07:09.690
where it's like he's presenting his, it's like he's presenting
1279
01:07:09.809 --> 01:07:13.469
the hideousness in the way that he believes it should
1280
01:07:13.510 --> 01:07:16.030
be perceived because he relishes it.
1281
01:07:16.349 --> 01:07:16.909
Yeah.
1282
01:07:16.929 --> 01:07:21.469
So to him, you know, my creation is beautiful and
1283
01:07:21.550 --> 01:07:24.639
complex and interesting and da da da da da. And
1284
01:07:24.659 --> 01:07:26.639
it's like, dude, you live in a one bedroom apartment.
1285
01:07:26.659 --> 01:07:29.030
You never wash your hair and you frigging murder people.
1286
01:07:29.679 --> 01:07:33.349
You are not a king. I mean, okay. Kings didn't
1287
01:07:33.389 --> 01:07:36.150
bathe a lot, but otherwise that's really all you have
1288
01:07:36.190 --> 01:07:36.650
in common.
1289
01:07:37.070 --> 01:07:37.389
That's it.
1290
01:07:37.570 --> 01:07:41.769
Yeah. So that's, you know, and also a side note,
1291
01:07:42.150 --> 01:07:45.210
the fact that he had an aquaphobic reaction of some
1292
01:07:45.250 --> 01:07:46.989
sort that made him almost drown in the bathtub is
1293
01:07:47.030 --> 01:07:47.969
also just a great touch.
1294
01:07:48.289 --> 01:07:48.570
Yeah.
1295
01:07:49.300 --> 01:07:51.639
I just side thing. Like, that's also a great touch.
1296
01:07:51.659 --> 01:07:53.380
He was like going to drown in the bathtub after
1297
01:07:53.599 --> 01:07:55.679
all of the stuff we learned about his psyche and
1298
01:07:55.780 --> 01:07:59.809
water and baptism and mercy killing and all this stuff.
1299
01:07:59.869 --> 01:08:02.710
And then it's like, Oh, Oh, there it is.
1300
01:08:02.769 --> 01:08:03.030
Yeah.
1301
01:08:03.409 --> 01:08:07.550
And to go deeper about his God complex, you know,
1302
01:08:07.590 --> 01:08:10.639
because of the drowning, the little bird to show kindness.
1303
01:08:11.079 --> 01:08:15.179
And then his father basically like baptizing him too hard.
1304
01:08:15.639 --> 01:08:16.939
I don't know how else to put it. So he
1305
01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:19.810
started to actually drown because his dad, was an angry, drunk,
1306
01:08:19.930 --> 01:08:22.430
mean guy. And to him, he was like, he needs
1307
01:08:22.489 --> 01:08:24.210
a lot of it because he's not a good son
1308
01:08:24.270 --> 01:08:26.029
or whatever. It's kind of, that's kind of the vibe.
1309
01:08:26.090 --> 01:08:26.369
Yeah.
1310
01:08:26.770 --> 01:08:28.670
So he held him down too long and it scared him.
1311
01:08:28.909 --> 01:08:30.689
I almost, well, I didn't almost, I drowned when I
1312
01:08:30.710 --> 01:08:31.170
was a kid.
1313
01:08:31.890 --> 01:08:32.430
Twice. Wasn't it?
1314
01:08:32.449 --> 01:08:33.760
I was going to say it was more than once.
1315
01:08:33.779 --> 01:08:34.039
Twice.
1316
01:08:34.079 --> 01:08:34.260
Yeah.
1317
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:37.319
And it's funny because when you tell people like that,
1318
01:08:37.340 --> 01:08:39.119
I'm like drowning just means that like you fall in
1319
01:08:39.140 --> 01:08:40.880
the water and you couldn't get yourself out and you
1320
01:08:40.899 --> 01:08:43.180
started breathing in water. Like it doesn't mean you die.
1321
01:08:44.079 --> 01:08:46.689
You can drown or you can drown.
1322
01:08:47.520 --> 01:08:49.199
Yeah, you can drown to death.
1323
01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:49.600
Yes.
1324
01:08:49.640 --> 01:08:50.720
That's not the same as just drowning.
1325
01:08:50.739 --> 01:08:52.699
You can do many things to death if you're dedicated enough.
1326
01:08:52.739 --> 01:08:54.479
That's why I'm not allowed at Denny's anymore.
1327
01:08:55.229 --> 01:08:56.649
Yeah, we don't like to talk about that.
1328
01:08:56.670 --> 01:09:03.159
But, but, but. if you think about him as a god,
1329
01:09:04.100 --> 01:09:09.039
the idea that drowning is mercy and cleansing and da-da-da-da,
1330
01:09:10.010 --> 01:09:13.569
he can look at the world, the world he didn't create,
1331
01:09:13.789 --> 01:09:17.760
the world that's so imperfect and so... dirty and all
1332
01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:21.060
these things that are bad and, and really believe that
1333
01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:24.130
he is saving people.
1334
01:09:24.649 --> 01:09:24.869
Yeah.
1335
01:09:25.369 --> 01:09:28.850
By killing them, preserving them and moving on. Now, obviously
1336
01:09:28.890 --> 01:09:31.909
it's deeply perverted. It's not real. I mean, he's, he's
1337
01:09:31.949 --> 01:09:34.149
made that up in a, in one of the many
1338
01:09:34.180 --> 01:09:35.779
compartments of his brain so that he can do what
1339
01:09:35.800 --> 01:09:38.220
he wants to do. Right. But I think that once
1340
01:09:38.260 --> 01:09:39.899
you look in his mind and this whole thing where
1341
01:09:39.939 --> 01:09:44.569
he's just this decadent, brilliant artistic leader who, It shows
1342
01:09:44.609 --> 01:09:48.020
you the reality that he actually is, that actually is
1343
01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:50.779
the way the world he created and it's beautiful and it's,
1344
01:09:51.340 --> 01:09:53.720
you know, all these things at first. Uh, but with
1345
01:09:53.779 --> 01:09:57.340
a tinge of all the awful stuff, I just think
1346
01:09:57.359 --> 01:10:01.210
that's a really interesting element to consider that he could
1347
01:10:01.390 --> 01:10:04.529
very easily be like, no, I'm saving these people. This
1348
01:10:04.609 --> 01:10:08.369
is my duty is drowning these women so that they
1349
01:10:08.409 --> 01:10:10.850
don't have to be in this imperfect world.
1350
01:10:11.149 --> 01:10:11.329
Mm-hmm.
1351
01:10:12.079 --> 01:10:15.439
Yeah, that's, no, I think that was definitely in there.
1352
01:10:15.470 --> 01:10:15.970
Yeah.
1353
01:10:16.050 --> 01:10:19.130
Kind of like the reasoning behind what he was doing.
1354
01:10:19.149 --> 01:10:26.229
And there's a really interesting scene where Catherine confronts Carl.
1355
01:10:26.350 --> 01:10:29.420
It's an adult Carl, but he's not in his like
1356
01:10:29.720 --> 01:10:34.140
God form. And I found that scene really interesting because
1357
01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:37.420
of how vulnerable he was with her in that moment.
1358
01:10:37.779 --> 01:10:37.979
Yeah.
1359
01:10:38.659 --> 01:10:40.800
It's one of the few times where he was so
1360
01:10:40.899 --> 01:10:43.970
vulnerable with her, but not as a child.
1361
01:10:44.770 --> 01:10:46.159
Okay. Yeah, I see that for sure.
1362
01:10:46.569 --> 01:10:51.229
But there is still that, you know, that evil brokenness
1363
01:10:51.670 --> 01:10:55.189
of like, yeah, this all happened to me. Therefore, that's
1364
01:10:55.289 --> 01:10:58.090
why I'm the one who has to cleanse these women
1365
01:10:58.350 --> 01:11:02.550
or that. Therefore, I'm the one who has to do
1366
01:11:02.670 --> 01:11:03.149
all this.
1367
01:11:03.529 --> 01:11:07.829
Yeah. And that, I mean, there's so many layers of dark.
1368
01:11:08.890 --> 01:11:12.149
you know, subtext. I mean, but, but I feel like,
1369
01:11:13.210 --> 01:11:14.609
and this is not like, I think this is a
1370
01:11:14.649 --> 01:11:19.369
common interpretation. The cells real challenge to the audience is, um,
1371
01:11:20.210 --> 01:11:26.680
whether understanding how, uh, a heinous creature, uh, was created is,
1372
01:11:27.619 --> 01:11:31.420
is like the same thing as forgiving them. Exactly. And
1373
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:35.100
I think that that's a legitimate question in life. Um, and,
1374
01:11:35.319 --> 01:11:37.170
and I think that that's a, and that's why I
1375
01:11:37.210 --> 01:11:38.789
think like, uh, when we get into it, I have
1376
01:11:38.810 --> 01:11:42.270
so many challenging interpretations and we'll, we'll, we'll get there
1377
01:11:42.310 --> 01:11:44.949
soon enough. But first you gotta, you gotta eat your
1378
01:11:44.970 --> 01:11:59.100
vegetables before you can have some more cake. In reference
1379
01:11:59.180 --> 01:12:01.600
to the whole idea of like, if you understand a monster,
1380
01:12:01.640 --> 01:12:04.819
does that allow you to forgive a monster? And, and,
1381
01:12:04.939 --> 01:12:07.869
and the whole concept of forgiveness is a super, I
1382
01:12:07.890 --> 01:12:10.569
would say it's a pretty deep concept. I mean, but
1383
01:12:10.710 --> 01:12:16.210
only like a billion people in certain religions have been
1384
01:12:16.310 --> 01:12:18.899
working on that problem forever, basically.
1385
01:12:19.300 --> 01:12:20.319
Since we've been human.
1386
01:12:20.380 --> 01:12:26.020
Yeah, yeah. But we get, this is actually my favorite
1387
01:12:26.039 --> 01:12:29.510
part of the movie, although I feel like it's obvious
1388
01:12:29.689 --> 01:12:35.090
that it's coming. Eventually, Catherine is stuck in there. Because
1389
01:12:35.149 --> 01:12:37.949
one of the problems is if you forget it's not real,
1390
01:12:38.229 --> 01:12:39.289
then you can't leave.
1391
01:12:39.310 --> 01:12:40.010
Yeah.
1392
01:12:40.810 --> 01:12:43.489
Which, of course, in sci-fi, there's always some fun, weird
1393
01:12:43.529 --> 01:12:48.520
rule like that. If you forget who you are, then
1394
01:12:48.560 --> 01:12:52.840
you can't leave. And as we see, but the scientists
1395
01:12:52.859 --> 01:12:56.640
can't see, Carl has made her convinced she's a part
1396
01:12:56.659 --> 01:13:00.000
of his creation. So now she can't really leave. So
1397
01:13:00.039 --> 01:13:05.220
we got to send frigging... unwashed, doesn't-go-home Vince Vaughn into
1398
01:13:05.239 --> 01:13:08.600
the dream world without any training or preparation, we have to.
1399
01:13:08.619 --> 01:13:09.619
That's what you do.
1400
01:13:09.699 --> 01:13:13.600
Because if they didn't, we riot, damn it. No, because
1401
01:13:13.619 --> 01:13:15.199
we want that. I just spent all that time setting
1402
01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:18.810
up how Vince Vaughn is kind of the grounding element
1403
01:13:19.010 --> 01:13:21.770
of the film. Yeah. So throwing him into there is
1404
01:13:21.789 --> 01:13:26.289
like a no-brainer. You gotta do it. Hope you don't
1405
01:13:26.350 --> 01:13:27.149
mind the puns.
1406
01:13:27.449 --> 01:13:28.010
Oh my god.
1407
01:13:28.029 --> 01:13:28.529
Yeah.
1408
01:13:30.829 --> 01:13:35.529
I lobe a good pun. Okay. I, I, I, I
1409
01:13:35.590 --> 01:13:38.420
couldn't think of another one in time. Okay. So if I,
1410
01:13:38.579 --> 01:13:40.020
if I missed the six second thing, I have to
1411
01:13:40.060 --> 01:13:44.039
move on. So, but so he decides he's going to
1412
01:13:44.079 --> 01:13:45.340
go in there cause he's going to try and pull
1413
01:13:45.380 --> 01:13:47.800
her out for the combination of, he has gotten to
1414
01:13:47.859 --> 01:13:52.989
know her. They are not particularly love interests to each other.
1415
01:13:53.050 --> 01:13:54.789
Although I think they did have a little chemistry.
1416
01:13:55.529 --> 01:13:57.949
They did, but it seemed more like to me, it
1417
01:13:58.010 --> 01:14:00.789
seemed more like, um, Mutual respect.
1418
01:14:01.689 --> 01:14:02.430
Well, eventually.
1419
01:14:02.449 --> 01:14:02.789
Eventually.
1420
01:14:02.810 --> 01:14:05.470
Because at first he thinks she's just a quack. Oh, absolutely.
1421
01:14:05.489 --> 01:14:06.689
A hundred percent.
1422
01:14:06.930 --> 01:14:10.130
And it's not even anything against her or against the sciences.
1423
01:14:10.210 --> 01:14:13.350
It's that he's like, if you guys, if this is quackery,
1424
01:14:13.380 --> 01:14:16.000
if this is like self-flagellation and you guys are just
1425
01:14:16.039 --> 01:14:18.260
hopeful that it's working, you're wasting our time and this
1426
01:14:18.300 --> 01:14:20.180
girl is going to die. Yeah. You know, he's like,
1427
01:14:20.199 --> 01:14:23.260
this isn't, you know, oh, little Billy needs to understand
1428
01:14:23.300 --> 01:14:25.720
that he shouldn't cry when he sees a blue dinosaur. It's...
1429
01:14:26.619 --> 01:14:27.279
it's for real.
1430
01:14:27.319 --> 01:14:27.420
Yeah.
1431
01:14:27.439 --> 01:14:28.300
This is real life guys.
1432
01:14:28.319 --> 01:14:30.699
That's his attitude. And she's like, um, I mean, no,
1433
01:14:30.739 --> 01:14:32.390
it's real. Like I'm in their minds and he's like,
1434
01:14:32.399 --> 01:14:33.520
I don't know what that means. So I'm just going
1435
01:14:33.550 --> 01:14:36.390
to keep telling you, don't lie. Don't waste my time.
1436
01:14:36.409 --> 01:14:38.670
You know, he basically just says, don't waste my time
1437
01:14:38.710 --> 01:14:40.550
over and over until he starts to realize she's legitimate
1438
01:14:40.649 --> 01:14:42.689
and they get to know each other. And that's why
1439
01:14:42.729 --> 01:14:44.069
I'm saying like, it kind of felt like they had
1440
01:14:44.090 --> 01:14:45.750
a little bit of a chemistry thing going, but it
1441
01:14:45.789 --> 01:14:48.210
wasn't like, it wasn't even as deep as like a will.
1442
01:14:48.229 --> 01:14:50.430
They won't. They, it just started to be like, Oh,
1443
01:14:50.449 --> 01:14:52.329
they're becoming fond of each other and they're starting to
1444
01:14:52.369 --> 01:14:55.149
understand each other and they're bonding over trauma and stuff. Um,
1445
01:14:55.529 --> 01:14:57.729
Which they didn't even realize how much trauma they'd get
1446
01:14:57.750 --> 01:15:04.840
to bond over after this whole event. But I love that.
1447
01:15:04.939 --> 01:15:06.760
But that makes bigger impetus that he has to go
1448
01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:09.020
in there and help her because he believes that she
1449
01:15:09.140 --> 01:15:12.720
is good and that she wouldn't stay in there unless
1450
01:15:12.779 --> 01:15:15.119
she was in serious trouble. She would be doing everything
1451
01:15:15.159 --> 01:15:20.239
she could to help Julia. So he goes in. Somehow
1452
01:15:20.279 --> 01:15:23.170
they had one of those weird suits that fit him.
1453
01:15:24.569 --> 01:15:26.619
Scientists are also really good seamstresses.
1454
01:15:27.180 --> 01:15:31.680
I believe that. So he goes in and, you know,
1455
01:15:31.699 --> 01:15:34.779
immediately sees her all decked out in the, like, kabuki
1456
01:15:34.840 --> 01:15:39.939
style that is the little king monster guys.
1457
01:15:40.100 --> 01:15:43.520
And she's got, like, instead of having, like, the beautiful
1458
01:15:43.720 --> 01:15:50.000
white and flowing and gowns and feathers, it's spikes. and
1459
01:15:50.180 --> 01:15:53.680
red and skin tight and the one thing i really
1460
01:15:53.720 --> 01:15:58.020
liked is carl in real life when he's doing stuff
1461
01:15:58.079 --> 01:16:00.720
with his victims after he after they've died he puts
1462
01:16:00.779 --> 01:16:03.899
a collar on their neck and then takes it off
1463
01:16:03.939 --> 01:16:09.090
when he's done and part of how he traps katherine
1464
01:16:09.310 --> 01:16:11.850
is he manages to grab her and put that collar
1465
01:16:11.909 --> 01:16:14.050
on her neck so that's also part of her costume
1466
01:16:14.090 --> 01:16:16.390
now is she's got that collar and she's got like
1467
01:16:16.699 --> 01:16:20.260
you know, mask thing all over her face and weird makeup.
1468
01:16:20.760 --> 01:16:28.170
So again, I love how as her role in Carl's
1469
01:16:28.229 --> 01:16:30.390
mind changes, her outfit changes.
1470
01:16:30.449 --> 01:16:30.670
Yes.
1471
01:16:31.229 --> 01:16:34.630
Well, and I think that it's easy to overlook how
1472
01:16:34.789 --> 01:16:39.029
chilling the statement is that what gets you trapped in
1473
01:16:39.069 --> 01:16:42.279
there is forgetting it's not real. And the reason that's
1474
01:16:42.319 --> 01:16:46.579
chilling to me is not... Because it's a scary, heinous world.
1475
01:16:46.619 --> 01:16:49.460
There's child abuse. There's all these horrible things. It's because
1476
01:16:49.899 --> 01:16:53.100
the world that you would suddenly lose the concept of
1477
01:16:53.359 --> 01:16:56.649
is a world where he is literally God, where Carl
1478
01:16:56.710 --> 01:16:57.510
is literally God.
1479
01:16:57.689 --> 01:16:57.970
Yeah.
1480
01:16:58.189 --> 01:17:00.649
That's what's terrifying. So in that moment, she literally is like,
1481
01:17:00.710 --> 01:17:04.069
I'm his creation because everything around me is his creation.
1482
01:17:04.289 --> 01:17:05.170
It just makes sense.
1483
01:17:05.310 --> 01:17:10.279
That's so chilling from the most base human intellectual level.
1484
01:17:11.149 --> 01:17:13.989
that you just know for, for a little while you
1485
01:17:14.029 --> 01:17:17.090
believed he was God. And it makes even more sense
1486
01:17:17.189 --> 01:17:20.420
because when Vaughn's character is like telling her, like, you're not,
1487
01:17:20.520 --> 01:17:22.380
you're this, because he starts telling her that, you know,
1488
01:17:22.420 --> 01:17:25.140
you're this, they're this, this, um, what he's doing is
1489
01:17:25.380 --> 01:17:27.960
defying the creator, which is making her realize, okay, so
1490
01:17:28.020 --> 01:17:31.300
everything around me isn't his creation. Am I his creation?
1491
01:17:31.359 --> 01:17:34.689
And then, and then he, throws at her the personal
1492
01:17:34.710 --> 01:17:36.569
information about, I think it was her sister. I feel bad.
1493
01:17:36.689 --> 01:17:37.109
I don't remember.
1494
01:17:37.220 --> 01:17:39.100
Either a younger sister or younger brother.
1495
01:17:39.119 --> 01:17:41.300
Yeah. It was a younger sibling had died and it
1496
01:17:41.340 --> 01:17:44.779
was horrible. And he throws that at her and that's
1497
01:17:44.819 --> 01:17:46.600
what kind of brings her back. And he, and he
1498
01:17:46.619 --> 01:17:48.380
even says, I'm sorry for this. And then he says
1499
01:17:48.439 --> 01:17:51.340
it to her, you know, like it's mean to, to
1500
01:17:51.439 --> 01:17:55.239
throw something like that in somebody's face. So I, you know, I,
1501
01:17:55.350 --> 01:17:57.390
I think that that whole element is great. And then,
1502
01:17:57.409 --> 01:18:00.149
you know, he's detormants Vaughn. He, he does the thing
1503
01:18:00.189 --> 01:18:03.340
where he's, um, winding his intestines out of his stomach,
1504
01:18:03.359 --> 01:18:06.779
which is like straight out of like, uh, or like
1505
01:18:06.819 --> 01:18:11.729
a Catholic, uh, uh, saint, um, uh, mural, you know,
1506
01:18:11.770 --> 01:18:13.529
how they, how they have those ones that are really
1507
01:18:13.909 --> 01:18:16.890
twisted because part of their sainthood is that they were, um,
1508
01:18:16.930 --> 01:18:20.090
they were, they were killed or tortured for their beliefs. Um,
1509
01:18:20.590 --> 01:18:22.289
which is, you know, so I get why it has
1510
01:18:22.329 --> 01:18:24.029
to be morbid to an extent. Cause like, no, we
1511
01:18:24.050 --> 01:18:26.090
don't look away from it. We look toward it and
1512
01:18:26.109 --> 01:18:28.390
say like, this is the reality of like faith. And
1513
01:18:28.409 --> 01:18:30.369
it's like, Ooh, you guys are fun at parties. I bet.
1514
01:18:31.920 --> 01:18:33.619
But I get it. I get where they're coming from
1515
01:18:33.680 --> 01:18:36.760
about it. But like, it's, it's, uh, it's just, I
1516
01:18:36.819 --> 01:18:38.819
love once he's in there and they're teaming up and
1517
01:18:38.850 --> 01:18:41.750
they're trying to figure this stuff out. Um, this is
1518
01:18:41.789 --> 01:18:44.989
where I think the movie really like shines the like
1519
01:18:45.189 --> 01:18:49.529
fun element where it stops being quite so nonstop cerebral
1520
01:18:49.550 --> 01:18:51.819
and painful. until we get to the end. And then
1521
01:18:51.880 --> 01:18:54.680
it gets right back to work on your old brain meats.
1522
01:18:55.319 --> 01:18:57.670
But this is one of my favorite parts, though, is
1523
01:18:57.689 --> 01:19:00.750
him saving her. It's so cool. But also he gets
1524
01:19:01.710 --> 01:19:05.390
a little win. Yeah. Yeah. which is also like kind
1525
01:19:05.430 --> 01:19:07.189
to a character cause he's tormented as hell.
1526
01:19:07.430 --> 01:19:08.050
I mean, yeah.
1527
01:19:08.310 --> 01:19:09.850
So it was nice that he gets a little win
1528
01:19:09.869 --> 01:19:12.130
of like, I've saved you at least for now, but
1529
01:19:12.189 --> 01:19:13.590
also like, we need to figure out that thing. So
1530
01:19:13.630 --> 01:19:15.470
I can save the other person. I originally started all
1531
01:19:15.510 --> 01:19:18.350
this to save. And also she's in danger because of him.
1532
01:19:18.390 --> 01:19:20.510
I mean, they showed up and like insisted cause it
1533
01:19:20.529 --> 01:19:24.659
was her call. If she would try. Yeah. She could
1534
01:19:24.680 --> 01:19:26.659
have said no and nobody could have forced anything.
1535
01:19:27.039 --> 01:19:27.180
Yeah.
1536
01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:30.000
So it is Vaughn. So actually it makes it even
1537
01:19:30.039 --> 01:19:34.159
more tragic. It's his fault that she's like trapped in there. Trapped. Oh, sorry,
1538
01:19:34.199 --> 01:19:36.229
I get like chills about the thought trapped in a
1539
01:19:36.250 --> 01:19:39.789
world where a psychotic woman murderer who's psychosexual and completely
1540
01:19:39.829 --> 01:19:42.430
demented and twisted in every way, uh, being trapped in
1541
01:19:42.449 --> 01:19:44.829
a world where he's God, not trapped in a world
1542
01:19:44.850 --> 01:19:47.140
where he is in charge of you, not trapped in
1543
01:19:47.180 --> 01:19:49.180
a world where he's your boss or where he, you're,
1544
01:19:49.239 --> 01:19:52.359
you're in a box. He's literally God. And that's the
1545
01:19:52.399 --> 01:19:58.850
way you perceive him. Yeah. I feel gross. Yeah. Talking
1546
01:19:58.869 --> 01:20:02.550
about it. That's, that's what I love about, about, uh,
1547
01:20:02.710 --> 01:20:04.250
about like what we do on the show of like
1548
01:20:04.329 --> 01:20:06.609
about picking apart, like what makes things scary is because
1549
01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:09.439
sometimes you don't realize, like, I didn't realize until we
1550
01:20:09.460 --> 01:20:11.699
started talking about it, just how scary it was. The
1551
01:20:11.739 --> 01:20:14.239
idea like, Oh, so if she doesn't understand, it's not real.
1552
01:20:14.260 --> 01:20:17.840
Then she thinks he's God. That's mortifying. I mean, that's like, yeah,
1553
01:20:17.859 --> 01:20:20.359
it's absolutely terrifying because not only because you can't even
1554
01:20:20.430 --> 01:20:22.689
imagine what it would be like to sincerely just believe
1555
01:20:22.710 --> 01:20:25.109
like that's God. That's my creator. The end.
1556
01:20:25.949 --> 01:20:26.130
Yeah.
1557
01:20:26.270 --> 01:20:27.390
I can't, I can't even deal with it.
1558
01:20:27.609 --> 01:20:29.899
Well, and the closest it can come to, and I'm, I'm,
1559
01:20:30.630 --> 01:20:33.260
I'm sure you've had the experience too, like when you're
1560
01:20:33.310 --> 01:20:36.760
in a dream and something happens and it just makes
1561
01:20:36.859 --> 01:20:38.920
sense in that moment in the dream.
1562
01:20:39.479 --> 01:20:40.199
Oh, constantly.
1563
01:20:41.199 --> 01:20:43.520
Or it's like, oh yeah, of course everybody wears bananas
1564
01:20:43.579 --> 01:20:45.229
on Tuesday. That's just the way it works.
1565
01:20:45.270 --> 01:20:47.529
It's just the logic makes the logic. And when you
1566
01:20:47.550 --> 01:20:50.550
wake up, it slowly fades, the logic fades. So then
1567
01:20:50.569 --> 01:20:51.850
when you're trying to describe it, you're like, I guess
1568
01:20:51.890 --> 01:20:55.289
this isn't actually funny because it doesn't make any sense.
1569
01:20:55.310 --> 01:20:57.479
Or at least the key part doesn't make any sense.
1570
01:20:57.810 --> 01:20:59.579
Cause it's like, yeah, I walked in and like the
1571
01:20:59.619 --> 01:21:00.979
two penguins are like, what are you doing here? And
1572
01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:02.840
I was like, I brought the cake. And then like,
1573
01:21:02.920 --> 01:21:04.489
as you're halfway through, you're like, this is not funny. I,
1574
01:21:05.300 --> 01:21:06.260
but I woke up laughing.
1575
01:21:06.500 --> 01:21:07.640
Yeah. But it was hilarious then.
1576
01:21:07.720 --> 01:21:08.060
Yeah.
1577
01:21:08.420 --> 01:21:09.039
You had to be there.
1578
01:21:09.880 --> 01:21:13.279
So that's, that's really, yeah, that's very, very similar is
1579
01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:14.060
just that.
1580
01:21:14.359 --> 01:21:14.739
Oh yeah.
1581
01:21:14.779 --> 01:21:16.460
Of course it's the way, the way it's always been.
1582
01:21:16.500 --> 01:21:18.800
Cause that's how you believe it's always been.
1583
01:21:19.060 --> 01:21:19.279
Yes.
1584
01:21:19.560 --> 01:21:22.770
And I, I, I am with you. I love, um,
1585
01:21:23.590 --> 01:21:26.640
I love Vince Vaughn's character. Is his name Peter? think
1586
01:21:26.699 --> 01:21:31.840
so something like that I love him calling Catherine back
1587
01:21:32.479 --> 01:21:36.750
by sharing at first like sharing personal facts but then
1588
01:21:36.789 --> 01:21:41.210
like almost being mean and bringing something so personal that
1589
01:21:41.250 --> 01:21:46.569
it like violates the world that Carl had built for
1590
01:21:46.630 --> 01:21:48.430
her well.
1591
01:21:47.649 --> 01:21:50.770
And if you look at how they both handle their
1592
01:21:50.869 --> 01:21:53.619
trauma I And their trauma is not equal. And I
1593
01:21:53.640 --> 01:21:55.659
don't just mean, oh, like his thing was worse or
1594
01:21:55.699 --> 01:21:57.779
her thing was worse. I mean, her thing happened when
1595
01:21:57.819 --> 01:22:00.539
she was young and it was very close. His thing
1596
01:22:00.579 --> 01:22:03.560
happened when he was an adult and he could understand
1597
01:22:03.659 --> 01:22:08.060
consequences and things very clearly. Yeah. So they're very different traumas.
1598
01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:13.899
He ran toward that trauma as fast as you can
1599
01:22:14.060 --> 01:22:18.590
and is okay with it kind of destroying him as
1600
01:22:18.649 --> 01:22:22.020
long as he makes the inroads he wants. Uh-huh. And
1601
01:22:22.180 --> 01:22:27.359
she kind of power walked toward it, trying to build
1602
01:22:27.399 --> 01:22:30.060
herself and not in a selfish way, trying to build
1603
01:22:30.119 --> 01:22:33.520
her life and her, in her happy, you know, and
1604
01:22:33.579 --> 01:22:37.770
her existence around doing these good things. They're very, that's
1605
01:22:37.939 --> 01:22:41.449
a very different mentality. She has a much healthier potentially
1606
01:22:41.489 --> 01:22:44.149
until I start ripping apart everything about the movie in
1607
01:22:44.210 --> 01:22:47.770
a minute, but she had a much healthier mentality about
1608
01:22:47.810 --> 01:22:51.060
it in that way. But yeah, That's why he was
1609
01:22:51.109 --> 01:22:53.199
able to jump in there and get her the fuck out.
1610
01:22:53.520 --> 01:22:53.760
Yeah.
1611
01:22:53.960 --> 01:22:56.060
It's because he was like, I'm not like if I
1612
01:22:56.079 --> 01:22:57.439
have to do the hard thing, like she can hate
1613
01:22:57.479 --> 01:22:59.520
me forever as long as she's alive, because I'm already
1614
01:22:59.960 --> 01:23:02.539
kind of kind of a Christ complex, actually.
1615
01:23:03.680 --> 01:23:04.199
Oh, yeah.
1616
01:23:04.399 --> 01:23:06.039
I had never thought about that until just now, because
1617
01:23:06.119 --> 01:23:08.520
like she's got kind of the Virgin Mary thing. I mean,
1618
01:23:08.579 --> 01:23:12.819
they show it like how she sees herself as kind
1619
01:23:12.859 --> 01:23:13.600
of Virgin Mary.
1620
01:23:13.699 --> 01:23:14.300
Yeah.
1621
01:23:14.619 --> 01:23:17.350
And obviously, Carl sees as well as God. Well, he
1622
01:23:17.380 --> 01:23:19.239
definitely sees himself as a kind of as like the
1623
01:23:19.460 --> 01:23:22.359
as the lamb of God or something, because he definitely
1624
01:23:22.399 --> 01:23:24.939
is willing to sacrifice himself if it means that the
1625
01:23:25.060 --> 01:23:27.260
good that the salvation will come.
1626
01:23:27.560 --> 01:23:27.800
Yeah.
1627
01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:28.140
Wow.
1628
01:23:28.640 --> 01:23:28.880
Yeah.
1629
01:23:28.939 --> 01:23:30.560
No, yeah, that's really good.
1630
01:23:30.619 --> 01:23:32.659
Well, I need a break. We have to take a
1631
01:23:32.659 --> 01:23:34.289
break because I'm going to get a nosebleed from all
1632
01:23:34.310 --> 01:23:36.470
this thinking. But we'll be right back after this.
1633
01:23:48.010 --> 01:23:50.930
So I find it interesting, first off, that Peter doesn't
1634
01:23:51.029 --> 01:23:55.739
necessarily save Catherine. He just empowers her to take action.
1635
01:23:57.819 --> 01:24:01.539
Yeah, but without his intervention, she wouldn't have snapped out
1636
01:24:01.579 --> 01:24:03.760
of it. At the end, they definitely save each other.
1637
01:24:03.819 --> 01:24:06.060
I mean, without a doubt, it's a team effort. I
1638
01:24:06.100 --> 01:24:08.829
just mean like in that moment. Because when they're putting
1639
01:24:08.850 --> 01:24:10.550
him in, they're like, we don't know if you're even
1640
01:24:10.989 --> 01:24:14.189
capable of having this procedure. Like, you could just die. Like,
1641
01:24:14.569 --> 01:24:17.630
we build these procedures based on the people. Yeah. So
1642
01:24:17.649 --> 01:24:19.130
that's the other reason, too, is, like, he could have
1643
01:24:19.149 --> 01:24:21.869
literally just died trying and not even got in there.
1644
01:24:21.930 --> 01:24:23.029
That's why I was saying, like, he has a little
1645
01:24:23.050 --> 01:24:25.069
bit of a sacrificial element to him.
1646
01:24:26.189 --> 01:24:29.449
So they rescue each other. They get to another area
1647
01:24:29.600 --> 01:24:33.930
in Carl's mind. And they see like this woman suspended
1648
01:24:34.119 --> 01:24:37.239
in a cube and there's a screen and child Carl
1649
01:24:37.310 --> 01:24:40.449
is there. And then Peter sees a symbol. He sees
1650
01:24:40.510 --> 01:24:45.569
something like an inscription on this lady's back. And he
1651
01:24:45.609 --> 01:24:49.970
remembers that he did see that same symbol when they
1652
01:24:49.989 --> 01:24:55.630
were in Carl's apartment. So this means they do have
1653
01:24:55.689 --> 01:24:59.829
finally some semblance of a clue, which is the whole
1654
01:24:59.890 --> 01:25:03.119
reason they were there. I mean, it's important to remember that, like,
1655
01:25:03.470 --> 01:25:06.949
they're there to save Julia. Catherine's been trying to work
1656
01:25:06.989 --> 01:25:09.989
with Carl so that she can get information from him.
1657
01:25:11.210 --> 01:25:13.069
But that takes a long time.
1658
01:25:13.949 --> 01:25:14.210
Yes.
1659
01:25:14.869 --> 01:25:15.829
Yes, a very long time.
1660
01:25:15.850 --> 01:25:17.630
And they don't have a lot of that.
1661
01:25:17.850 --> 01:25:18.029
No.
1662
01:25:18.409 --> 01:25:21.710
So once they get this clue, they're able to come
1663
01:25:21.750 --> 01:25:25.729
back to the real world. And Vince kind of explains, like,
1664
01:25:25.750 --> 01:25:29.770
you've got to look back at his apartment, find that symbol.
1665
01:25:30.229 --> 01:25:33.550
And they start like unraveling it. And now we've got
1666
01:25:34.090 --> 01:25:39.800
basically two racing clocks. We have Vince Vaughn's character racing
1667
01:25:39.909 --> 01:25:42.220
to get into a helicopter so that he can like
1668
01:25:42.479 --> 01:25:51.079
find a title and follow that. Because again, Carl's a
1669
01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:54.920
great engineer. So he like was buying parts to build
1670
01:25:55.260 --> 01:26:00.380
the cell. So he's doing all that. while Catherine is
1671
01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:05.420
still trapped in Carl's mind, but now she's been able
1672
01:26:05.479 --> 01:26:11.590
to connect with child Carl. And so there's this moment
1673
01:26:11.619 --> 01:26:16.949
where she can kind of subdue the God King Carl
1674
01:26:17.149 --> 01:26:21.710
by getting child Carl to, like, commiserate with her. And
1675
01:26:21.729 --> 01:26:23.789
she almost treats him like she did in the beginning
1676
01:26:23.810 --> 01:26:26.449
with Edward, the little child, where she's able to, like,
1677
01:26:26.590 --> 01:26:30.470
get him to open up and talk about it. So they,
1678
01:26:30.670 --> 01:26:34.130
they do manage to find Julia as like, like you said,
1679
01:26:34.189 --> 01:26:36.340
she found a pipe to breathe out of, but she
1680
01:26:36.399 --> 01:26:39.079
is fully submerged. Like that, that cell is full of
1681
01:26:39.159 --> 01:26:43.020
water and Vince Vaughn finds her and he like finds
1682
01:26:43.060 --> 01:26:47.479
a sledgehammer and like breaks the plexiglass.
1683
01:26:47.579 --> 01:26:48.659
He shoots it first.
1684
01:26:48.819 --> 01:26:49.319
Oh yeah.
1685
01:26:49.350 --> 01:26:49.550
Yeah.
1686
01:26:49.600 --> 01:26:53.050
But then that just weakens it enough, but, but not
1687
01:26:53.090 --> 01:26:54.310
enough for it to break. So then he has to
1688
01:26:54.350 --> 01:26:57.210
hit it with something. It's a really great sequence. Great suspense.
1689
01:26:57.229 --> 01:26:57.369
Yeah.
1690
01:26:57.779 --> 01:27:01.079
Because even though he's there, it's like you still got
1691
01:27:01.100 --> 01:27:02.640
to get her out of there. And then the water
1692
01:27:03.159 --> 01:27:06.329
rushing out is dangerous as shit. And she's scared to
1693
01:27:06.369 --> 01:27:08.600
hell of him when he gets a hold of her.
1694
01:27:08.609 --> 01:27:09.789
Yeah, because she doesn't know what's going on.
1695
01:27:09.869 --> 01:27:10.310
No, no.
1696
01:27:10.430 --> 01:27:15.130
And she's just been through horrible, horrible shit. So I
1697
01:27:15.189 --> 01:27:17.310
love that whole sequence is so good. And I love
1698
01:27:17.329 --> 01:27:19.369
that he shows up and she's breathing through that pipe.
1699
01:27:19.930 --> 01:27:23.369
It shows that she was not passive at all. Like
1700
01:27:23.390 --> 01:27:25.380
you were mentioning, I mean, it's a really great touch.
1701
01:27:26.079 --> 01:27:28.300
That also humanizes her to a point where it would really,
1702
01:27:28.359 --> 01:27:30.399
really be heartbreaking if she died.
1703
01:27:30.479 --> 01:27:35.760
Yeah, I was... My asshole was puckered. I was so scared.
1704
01:27:36.220 --> 01:27:40.100
And then we've got Catherine as she's kind of talking
1705
01:27:40.159 --> 01:27:45.779
with child Carl. And then child Carl gets pulled away.
1706
01:27:46.060 --> 01:27:48.840
And now she's got to deal with God King Carl.
1707
01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:54.060
And she has her final costume change where she looks...
1708
01:27:54.470 --> 01:27:58.149
She reminds me of, like, Greek iconography of, like, Artemis
1709
01:27:58.789 --> 01:28:00.229
or the huntress gods.
1710
01:28:00.449 --> 01:28:01.310
Okay.
1711
01:28:01.649 --> 01:28:05.350
And, you know, she has her final moment where she,
1712
01:28:05.789 --> 01:28:11.739
you know, shoots Carl through the heart and defeats him.
1713
01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:12.239
Yeah.
1714
01:28:13.119 --> 01:28:16.399
So it's this great, you know, they win. They win.
1715
01:28:16.899 --> 01:28:21.220
And then, you know, it's several weeks later, weeks or
1716
01:28:21.260 --> 01:28:21.659
months later.
1717
01:28:22.119 --> 01:28:24.680
And, and, and, uh, but we, did we go, I apologize.
1718
01:28:24.720 --> 01:28:26.439
Cause I was making a note about what we're about
1719
01:28:26.460 --> 01:28:28.140
to talk about. Oh no, do you mention the drowning?
1720
01:28:29.500 --> 01:28:30.539
Uh, Julia drowning?
1721
01:28:30.560 --> 01:28:31.569
No, no, no, no.
1722
01:28:31.569 --> 01:28:32.130
Oh no, we didn't.
1723
01:28:32.130 --> 01:28:32.329
Okay.
1724
01:28:32.329 --> 01:28:32.539
Okay.
1725
01:28:32.539 --> 01:28:34.050
I just want to make sure you go ahead. i
1726
01:28:34.050 --> 01:28:37.609
apologize oh well that's because so the biggest uh turnaround
1727
01:28:37.649 --> 01:28:42.039
of the film uh thematically is you know we learn
1728
01:28:42.060 --> 01:28:45.779
about the drowning the bird to be merciful we learn
1729
01:28:45.819 --> 01:28:48.119
about all this stuff now all of a sudden she's
1730
01:28:49.180 --> 01:28:51.899
uh kind of uh catherine is kind of a um
1731
01:28:53.140 --> 01:28:57.149
a mother mary a a like a deity not a
1732
01:28:57.189 --> 01:29:01.430
god You know, because that's too much. A deity. Yeah.
1733
01:29:01.970 --> 01:29:06.449
And she tries, she brings, you know, because it's her mind,
1734
01:29:06.529 --> 01:29:11.729
she tries to, she lies to little Carl and tells him, like, no,
1735
01:29:11.770 --> 01:29:13.680
you can stay here forever. After he had said, like,
1736
01:29:13.699 --> 01:29:14.960
can I go with you? And she's like, it doesn't
1737
01:29:14.979 --> 01:29:19.279
work that way. And then she finally, she just puts
1738
01:29:19.319 --> 01:29:21.800
his head under the water and she drowns him and
1739
01:29:21.840 --> 01:29:25.000
it kills big Carl. Yeah. Because if you don't know
1740
01:29:25.060 --> 01:29:27.159
it's not real, then it's real.
1741
01:29:27.239 --> 01:29:27.659
It's real.
1742
01:29:27.859 --> 01:29:28.020
Yeah.
1743
01:29:28.729 --> 01:29:32.710
So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a devastating ending.
1744
01:29:32.729 --> 01:29:36.189
I mean, the realization that you can't separate the two,
1745
01:29:36.369 --> 01:29:38.369
they just really can't separate is really like one of
1746
01:29:38.430 --> 01:29:44.020
the harshest elements of the film, but also her making
1747
01:29:44.060 --> 01:29:46.359
that choice is really a lot.
1748
01:29:46.880 --> 01:29:47.060
Yeah.
1749
01:29:47.300 --> 01:29:49.500
And just you wait. Cause I've got all the thoughts,
1750
01:29:49.600 --> 01:29:51.119
but we're not going to get to that yet. Cause we're,
1751
01:29:51.420 --> 01:29:54.039
we're getting to the, the, the, the part you wanted
1752
01:29:54.079 --> 01:29:56.640
to talk about the most, but that ending is, affects
1753
01:29:56.680 --> 01:29:59.180
me a lot, and it really makes the ending, to me,
1754
01:29:59.380 --> 01:30:03.710
extremely complicated. Oh, yeah. And we'll get there. But then,
1755
01:30:03.770 --> 01:30:06.409
you're right, so then a few weeks later, after she's
1756
01:30:06.569 --> 01:30:10.630
murdered this guy, but it's okay, because she did it
1757
01:30:10.670 --> 01:30:12.770
to a version of him that looked like a child. Wait,
1758
01:30:12.829 --> 01:30:15.659
this is not getting easy yet. No, but it was,
1759
01:30:16.180 --> 01:30:17.279
but she was being merciful.
1760
01:30:17.579 --> 01:30:18.220
It was a mercy killing.
1761
01:30:18.260 --> 01:30:22.100
It was all about merciful, but the irony is, you know,
1762
01:30:22.140 --> 01:30:25.060
it was a mercy that he understood. Yeah. Which is,
1763
01:30:25.479 --> 01:30:28.449
I'll get there. But it is kind of beautiful in
1764
01:30:28.510 --> 01:30:30.630
its way, you know, but it's also kind of like,
1765
01:30:31.470 --> 01:30:34.710
you know, Mother Teresa, you know, watching people die and
1766
01:30:34.989 --> 01:30:38.550
it's weird. So, yeah. So anyway, so a few weeks later.
1767
01:30:38.630 --> 01:30:41.350
So a few weeks later, we find out that one,
1768
01:30:41.449 --> 01:30:43.170
she's adopted Carl's dog.
1769
01:30:43.689 --> 01:30:44.649
Yeah.
1770
01:30:44.949 --> 01:30:47.829
I thought it was an interesting symbology, too, because he
1771
01:30:48.010 --> 01:30:52.590
used the dog as like a tool in his crimes.
1772
01:30:53.189 --> 01:30:55.369
And then it's almost like she got to reclaim Carl.
1773
01:30:56.000 --> 01:30:59.340
the dog or, you know, reclaim that, that innocence and purity.
1774
01:30:59.819 --> 01:31:02.560
Yeah. Because he was subservient. One of the only actual
1775
01:31:02.649 --> 01:31:04.630
subservience that Carl could manage.
1776
01:31:04.930 --> 01:31:05.130
Yeah.
1777
01:31:05.409 --> 01:31:05.550
Yeah.
1778
01:31:05.569 --> 01:31:06.130
That's a good point.
1779
01:31:06.750 --> 01:31:10.029
Um, so they, she, Catherine and Peter get up to
1780
01:31:10.090 --> 01:31:13.029
kind of talk and it's kind of implied this is
1781
01:31:13.069 --> 01:31:14.409
the last time they're ever going to be able to
1782
01:31:14.470 --> 01:31:15.050
talk together.
1783
01:31:15.510 --> 01:31:15.630
Yeah.
1784
01:31:15.670 --> 01:31:17.510
Or that they just, cause why would they, cause why
1785
01:31:17.529 --> 01:31:19.029
would they ever see each other again? Or maybe they
1786
01:31:19.050 --> 01:31:20.869
don't want to. I mean, I don't want to remember
1787
01:31:20.909 --> 01:31:21.250
any of this.
1788
01:31:21.329 --> 01:31:27.210
I don't blame them. So they're discussing it and, officially
1789
01:31:27.930 --> 01:31:33.130
the records are that Vincent or, you know, Vincent Vaughn's
1790
01:31:33.149 --> 01:31:37.699
character just did good old fashioned detective work and just
1791
01:31:37.899 --> 01:31:43.500
managed to connect the dots. And he figured it out.
1792
01:31:43.659 --> 01:31:44.810
He figured it out on his own.
1793
01:31:44.819 --> 01:31:47.470
He ate a rare steak, smoked three cigarettes and solved
1794
01:31:47.510 --> 01:31:48.229
that bastard.
1795
01:31:49.189 --> 01:31:53.789
But, but then as audience members, we have to wonder like, okay, okay.
1796
01:31:54.680 --> 01:31:58.479
Maybe he could have figured it out eventually. But would
1797
01:31:58.520 --> 01:32:03.260
they have been able to find those clues, put all
1798
01:32:03.300 --> 01:32:07.029
that together, you know, find the sales titles, trace everything
1799
01:32:07.090 --> 01:32:09.710
down in time to save Julia?
1800
01:32:10.710 --> 01:32:11.050
Maybe.
1801
01:32:12.069 --> 01:32:12.310
Yeah.
1802
01:32:12.710 --> 01:32:13.350
I mean, maybe.
1803
01:32:14.689 --> 01:32:16.390
But I mean, it's kind of a it's kind of
1804
01:32:16.430 --> 01:32:20.170
a slim because we don't like they kind of threw
1805
01:32:20.229 --> 01:32:22.090
all their eggs into this one basket.
1806
01:32:22.989 --> 01:32:23.170
Yeah.
1807
01:32:23.189 --> 01:32:23.270
Yeah.
1808
01:32:23.970 --> 01:32:26.069
I'm just saying like, there's a chance that they didn't
1809
01:32:26.109 --> 01:32:30.060
have to do any of that, which is, which is telling.
1810
01:32:30.069 --> 01:32:34.659
Cause like the results of it were so devastating in
1811
01:32:34.720 --> 01:32:38.520
every direction, except for Julia's maybe. I mean, I think
1812
01:32:38.539 --> 01:32:40.369
that probably it helped, but they did, they did leave it.
1813
01:32:40.399 --> 01:32:42.869
Like they could have kind of, cause at the same
1814
01:32:42.909 --> 01:32:45.029
time they were kind of figuring it out when he
1815
01:32:45.069 --> 01:32:47.489
got like the last little bit too. Cause he wasn't,
1816
01:32:47.529 --> 01:32:49.029
they didn't act. I mean, they kind of put it
1817
01:32:49.050 --> 01:32:51.430
all in the basket, but I mean, Vaughn, was with them,
1818
01:32:51.510 --> 01:32:53.460
but the other people, the rest of the FBI was
1819
01:32:53.500 --> 01:32:56.380
doing everything else. So, I mean, they were trying. But again,
1820
01:32:56.439 --> 01:32:58.380
it's kind of like Julia. We weren't following the rest
1821
01:32:58.420 --> 01:33:01.079
of the FBI all the time. We had moments where
1822
01:33:01.100 --> 01:33:02.939
we saw what they were doing. We had moments where
1823
01:33:02.960 --> 01:33:05.930
we saw what Julia was doing trapped in the cell. So,
1824
01:33:06.659 --> 01:33:08.409
but yeah, it's complicated.
1825
01:33:08.649 --> 01:33:08.949
It is.
1826
01:33:09.130 --> 01:33:09.430
It is.
1827
01:33:09.750 --> 01:33:12.130
No, but that's why it's such a good movie, though,
1828
01:33:12.189 --> 01:33:13.729
is because it is complicated.
1829
01:33:13.770 --> 01:33:14.270
Oh, just you wait.
1830
01:33:14.289 --> 01:33:14.369
Yeah.
1831
01:33:15.189 --> 01:33:18.149
But yeah, so they have that talk and, you know,
1832
01:33:18.189 --> 01:33:20.289
there's a bit of a laugh about like, oh, well,
1833
01:33:20.510 --> 01:33:25.170
you know, we'll always know. Sorry about that. We'll always
1834
01:33:25.250 --> 01:33:29.390
know sort of thing. And then it kind of turns
1835
01:33:29.569 --> 01:33:34.960
out that because Catherine had this experience with Carl, the
1836
01:33:35.020 --> 01:33:39.560
research has concluded that it is better to bring her
1837
01:33:39.600 --> 01:33:44.600
patients into her mind. So there's this brief little reconnection
1838
01:33:44.659 --> 01:33:48.939
where she gets to talk to the kid edward and
1839
01:33:49.420 --> 01:33:52.680
um he's like way more receptive now because they're they're
1840
01:33:52.739 --> 01:33:55.180
in a different environment it's more you know it's so
1841
01:33:55.220 --> 01:33:59.600
it's a really sweet kind of like sweet uh wrap up.
1842
01:33:59.659 --> 01:34:03.939
Yeah well it ends with physician heal thyself oh yeah
1843
01:34:04.859 --> 01:34:06.279
you have to go into her mind and her mind
1844
01:34:06.319 --> 01:34:08.020
has to be a healthy safe place for them to.
1845
01:34:07.979 --> 01:34:11.939
Be yeah yeah yeah no you're right.
1846
01:34:12.189 --> 01:34:15.949
Hence the idea that maybe it's a kind of psychological
1847
01:34:16.010 --> 01:34:18.430
trespass to just walk into people's minds and start changing
1848
01:34:18.449 --> 01:34:20.489
things when maybe what you should be doing is bringing
1849
01:34:20.520 --> 01:34:23.000
them into yours. Again, I'm not saying that that is
1850
01:34:23.199 --> 01:34:25.380
necessarily the perfect moral claim. I'm just saying like, it's
1851
01:34:25.420 --> 01:34:27.939
a question that the movie kind of throws at you
1852
01:34:28.420 --> 01:34:31.000
really hard, like a, like a frigging egg on Halloween.
1853
01:34:32.659 --> 01:34:35.229
So we're going to take a break and then we're
1854
01:34:35.250 --> 01:34:38.829
going to talk about some interpretations of the film as
1855
01:34:38.869 --> 01:34:42.420
a whole. And again, how many goddamn cells there actually
1856
01:34:42.560 --> 01:34:59.319
are right after this. So help me. How many cells?
1857
01:34:59.939 --> 01:35:01.260
Now you don't have to like, just say a number.
1858
01:35:01.279 --> 01:35:04.060
I mean, like you can start listing out cells, but
1859
01:35:04.159 --> 01:35:07.380
how many cells I, cause I was compiling my, my
1860
01:35:07.600 --> 01:35:10.489
thoughts on it a little bit. How many cells, literal
1861
01:35:10.529 --> 01:35:13.470
and figurative, do you feel are in the cell?
1862
01:35:14.369 --> 01:35:16.369
Well, I mean, we're going to start with the obvious one.
1863
01:35:16.670 --> 01:35:17.029
Julia.
1864
01:35:17.109 --> 01:35:17.770
Julia's cell.
1865
01:35:18.310 --> 01:35:19.270
Literal glass cell.
1866
01:35:19.489 --> 01:35:26.060
Literal glass cell. We could also count the room that
1867
01:35:26.199 --> 01:35:28.779
the kid Edward is kept in. Could we?
1868
01:35:29.079 --> 01:35:31.300
No, because he's not kept there. He's moved there for
1869
01:35:31.340 --> 01:35:34.020
a thing and then moved to another thing. But I
1870
01:35:34.060 --> 01:35:37.180
think Edward is trapped inside his coma. I think that's
1871
01:35:37.199 --> 01:35:39.300
a sell for sure. For sure. A thousand percent.
1872
01:35:40.979 --> 01:35:43.970
I would also say, oh, I feel like I had
1873
01:35:44.029 --> 01:35:44.529
another one.
1874
01:35:44.850 --> 01:35:51.729
Nope. Well, I think Carl is trapped inside of his
1875
01:35:52.210 --> 01:35:53.829
damaged and fragmented mind.
1876
01:35:54.600 --> 01:35:55.449
Okay.
1877
01:35:55.569 --> 01:35:58.359
And that's only exacerbated by being in a coma.
1878
01:35:58.760 --> 01:35:59.020
Okay.
1879
01:35:59.119 --> 01:36:02.159
It's not that the coma isn't really his cell. It's just.
1880
01:36:02.710 --> 01:36:05.310
He is in a cell and the coma just makes,
1881
01:36:05.649 --> 01:36:07.510
you know, that all he sees.
1882
01:36:07.829 --> 01:36:08.630
Yeah.
1883
01:36:08.670 --> 01:36:10.229
Because he was always trapped in there anyway.
1884
01:36:10.409 --> 01:36:11.649
Yeah.
1885
01:36:12.710 --> 01:36:18.630
We got Julia, Carl. Catherine is trapped inside Carl's concept
1886
01:36:18.670 --> 01:36:22.029
of reality that becomes her cell. Okay. But she's not
1887
01:36:22.069 --> 01:36:24.310
trapped in his coma and she's not trapped in his
1888
01:36:24.390 --> 01:36:29.170
damaged mind per se. She's trapped in his conception, his creation.
1889
01:36:29.470 --> 01:36:29.829
Yeah.
1890
01:36:29.949 --> 01:36:33.250
Which I like that one. Um, you could also say
1891
01:36:33.289 --> 01:36:36.479
that she's trapped in a possible savior complex.
1892
01:36:37.720 --> 01:36:38.579
Yeah, that for sure.
1893
01:36:38.819 --> 01:36:40.460
I think there is a question about if she has
1894
01:36:40.500 --> 01:36:43.399
like a kind of unhealthy savior complex and we'll get
1895
01:36:43.439 --> 01:36:45.439
into that. Um, but we have to do the cell
1896
01:36:45.500 --> 01:36:47.140
question first. Cause I thought it was hilarious to be like,
1897
01:36:47.159 --> 01:36:51.149
how many damn cells are there being something we run down? Um,
1898
01:36:52.010 --> 01:36:52.930
Carl's childhood.
1899
01:36:53.710 --> 01:36:54.010
Okay.
1900
01:36:54.029 --> 01:36:54.189
Yeah.
1901
01:36:54.310 --> 01:36:58.649
Psychologically imprisoned inside an adult killer. And I think that's
1902
01:36:58.689 --> 01:36:59.789
a fair cell.
1903
01:36:59.810 --> 01:37:00.409
Yeah.
1904
01:37:01.310 --> 01:37:04.640
Um, and then this is the, one of the last
1905
01:37:04.720 --> 01:37:08.000
ones I thought of Peter is trapped in his job,
1906
01:37:08.079 --> 01:37:10.399
which is the only way he can repent.
1907
01:37:11.560 --> 01:37:12.260
Okay.
1908
01:37:12.600 --> 01:37:13.039
Yeah.
1909
01:37:13.840 --> 01:37:17.260
And then of course the seventh cell, we are all
1910
01:37:17.359 --> 01:37:20.350
trapped in our living room, watching the film and asking
1911
01:37:20.390 --> 01:37:23.869
these questions. So those are the seven cells in the cell,
1912
01:37:23.949 --> 01:37:27.869
according to me and you. It's perfect. Thank you. Thank you.
1913
01:37:28.180 --> 01:37:29.359
I was very proud of that last one. I had
1914
01:37:29.380 --> 01:37:31.079
to try so hard not to giggle when I thought
1915
01:37:31.100 --> 01:37:35.720
of it. Uh, so I have some thoughts, uh, about
1916
01:37:35.939 --> 01:37:38.819
the ending and I, I love the ending. I love that.
1917
01:37:38.859 --> 01:37:40.880
I have like a bunch of interpretations and some of
1918
01:37:40.899 --> 01:37:45.869
them are nice and some of them are mean. So like, uh,
1919
01:37:46.050 --> 01:37:51.069
how do I put this? Like, uh, an optimistic interpretation, uh,
1920
01:37:51.550 --> 01:37:56.640
would be Catherine. Uh, Catherine is, uh, she's learned not
1921
01:37:56.720 --> 01:37:59.720
to invade. A patient's hostile world. Like I was saying
1922
01:37:59.739 --> 01:38:00.680
about the trespass thing.
1923
01:38:00.819 --> 01:38:01.810
Yeah.
1924
01:38:02.270 --> 01:38:04.029
So now she's, you know, inviting Edward to a safe
1925
01:38:04.069 --> 01:38:09.609
environment she created. Therapy becomes, you know, hospitable and not
1926
01:38:09.670 --> 01:38:11.449
interrogation-y or whatever.
1927
01:38:11.470 --> 01:38:12.880
Way more consensual.
1928
01:38:12.949 --> 01:38:15.000
Yeah. Like I said, physician heal thyself kind of thing
1929
01:38:15.020 --> 01:38:17.300
where it's like you need to have a safe place
1930
01:38:17.359 --> 01:38:19.840
inside you for people to come. Yeah. Which I think
1931
01:38:19.880 --> 01:38:21.810
is a beautiful way to look at it.
1932
01:38:22.079 --> 01:38:23.359
Yeah. Or.
1933
01:38:23.380 --> 01:38:23.500
Uh-oh.
1934
01:38:25.199 --> 01:38:27.949
You could also consider the idea that Catherine has become
1935
01:38:27.989 --> 01:38:33.600
more comfortable controlling another person's reality. Her world was kinder
1936
01:38:33.640 --> 01:38:38.479
than Carl's. So, but Edward is still, he's still growing
1937
01:38:38.560 --> 01:38:41.739
and being brought into an environment where she determines everything
1938
01:38:41.779 --> 01:38:44.260
that he sees, how he develops, how he interprets, how
1939
01:38:44.300 --> 01:38:48.039
he understands everything, which kind of makes her God to
1940
01:38:48.060 --> 01:38:52.250
that boy. Yeah. Yeah.
1941
01:38:52.770 --> 01:38:56.590
And she did perform a mercy killing just like Carl did.
1942
01:38:56.930 --> 01:38:58.680
I was I was going to I was going to
1943
01:38:58.720 --> 01:39:05.460
go there to be be extra mean. So like Catherine
1944
01:39:05.520 --> 01:39:12.430
defeats Carl, but not through psychology or objective science or
1945
01:39:12.970 --> 01:39:15.750
reason or any of the things she's trained to use.
1946
01:39:15.789 --> 01:39:17.489
Not like not really.
1947
01:39:17.829 --> 01:39:18.050
Yeah.
1948
01:39:18.739 --> 01:39:23.939
But by taking his cruel fantasy and replacing it with
1949
01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:28.649
a merciful fantasy, it's also not real. He's not being
1950
01:39:28.699 --> 01:39:32.770
held by a beautiful savior. Yeah. It's not real. It's
1951
01:39:32.850 --> 01:39:37.250
just a world she controls that he is convinced he's in.
1952
01:39:38.210 --> 01:39:41.369
And then the film kind of leaves the morality of
1953
01:39:41.409 --> 01:39:46.979
that victory like kind of all over the place like
1954
01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:48.579
kind of like it could be good it could be
1955
01:39:48.859 --> 01:39:55.619
bad but the reason I find that extra troubling is
1956
01:39:55.680 --> 01:40:02.130
because like she you could say that she leaves the
1957
01:40:02.210 --> 01:40:07.630
cell more like Carl as to where Carl just dies
1958
01:40:08.529 --> 01:40:12.050
Carl doesn't become better yeah he doesn't he just has
1959
01:40:12.069 --> 01:40:15.890
like a brief moment of pretend peace and And then
1960
01:40:15.930 --> 01:40:18.470
she mercy kills him. Again, I'm not saying, I'm saying like,
1961
01:40:18.479 --> 01:40:19.829
this is a way you can interpret it.
1962
01:40:19.829 --> 01:40:20.329
Yeah.
1963
01:40:20.369 --> 01:40:20.630
Yeah.
1964
01:40:21.529 --> 01:40:23.390
I mean, there, there's a whole, we could go into
1965
01:40:23.430 --> 01:40:27.890
a whole other, uh, just, you know, schmoz of frigging,
1966
01:40:28.170 --> 01:40:31.329
you know, is a mercy killing. Okay. And, and, and
1967
01:40:31.390 --> 01:40:35.789
all this stuff. But, you know, when you look at her,
1968
01:40:36.229 --> 01:40:41.430
her mindset that like she can save people and that, um,
1969
01:40:41.970 --> 01:40:44.310
you know, that there's like an innocent child instead of everybody.
1970
01:40:45.159 --> 01:40:47.439
And then it's like, well, this child actually can't just
1971
01:40:47.479 --> 01:40:49.239
be an innocent child. And it's like, OK, well, then
1972
01:40:49.260 --> 01:40:49.939
I'll just drown him.
1973
01:40:51.399 --> 01:40:51.779
Yeah.
1974
01:40:52.579 --> 01:40:54.760
So I love to hear what you think of that.
1975
01:40:55.460 --> 01:40:56.739
It's an uncomfortable interpretation.
1976
01:40:56.840 --> 01:40:58.060
It is. It is.
1977
01:40:58.390 --> 01:41:01.239
But I mean, that's again, that's why I like the movie,
1978
01:41:01.359 --> 01:41:04.149
because it is multilayered.
1979
01:41:04.470 --> 01:41:04.670
Yes.
1980
01:41:04.789 --> 01:41:08.729
And it does throughout the movie. It does kind of
1981
01:41:08.829 --> 01:41:12.890
beg that question of. Is it OK for them to
1982
01:41:12.930 --> 01:41:16.640
be doing this just because they're trying to save someone?
1983
01:41:16.920 --> 01:41:19.300
Oh, that was something I hadn't brought up. That is
1984
01:41:19.960 --> 01:41:24.819
the legal element of entering somebody's mind is completely way
1985
01:41:24.880 --> 01:41:27.000
like a lawyer would have a field day with that. Yeah.
1986
01:41:27.819 --> 01:41:30.460
I mean, literally, law enforcement is like, we're going to
1987
01:41:30.579 --> 01:41:32.750
we're going to we're going to extract information from an
1988
01:41:32.829 --> 01:41:37.130
unconscious suspect. Well, it's the kind of thing that the
1989
01:41:37.170 --> 01:41:38.789
Supreme Court would figure out if that could ever happen
1990
01:41:38.829 --> 01:41:40.210
again after it happens. Yeah.
1991
01:41:41.880 --> 01:41:46.199
But so she does have, you know, she does have
1992
01:41:46.260 --> 01:41:49.260
like that kind of savior complex.
1993
01:41:49.420 --> 01:41:51.239
For sure. I mean, she shows herself as a savior
1994
01:41:51.279 --> 01:41:52.420
when he enters her mind.
1995
01:41:52.439 --> 01:41:57.979
Yeah, when he enters her mind. And yeah, and it
1996
01:41:58.159 --> 01:42:02.750
leaves us with the question of, was there anything she
1997
01:42:02.810 --> 01:42:08.489
could have done to save Carl? Was he too far gone?
1998
01:42:08.590 --> 01:42:10.810
And he was never coming out of the coma.
1999
01:42:11.550 --> 01:42:11.869
Oh, yeah.
2000
01:42:11.890 --> 01:42:15.029
That's early on. The doctor says that, like, he's never
2001
01:42:15.109 --> 01:42:17.470
heard of anybody waking up from this type of coma.
2002
01:42:17.710 --> 01:42:17.869
Yeah.
2003
01:42:18.369 --> 01:42:20.680
So that is that. And that's like I said, I'm
2004
01:42:20.689 --> 01:42:23.060
not saying that that's exactly what I think the ending is.
2005
01:42:23.079 --> 01:42:25.619
I have a bunch of thoughts about what the ending is.
2006
01:42:25.800 --> 01:42:28.760
And they contradict each other a lot, which is why
2007
01:42:28.800 --> 01:42:31.899
we record a show about it and also why we'll
2008
01:42:31.939 --> 01:42:46.430
take this break and talk more about it. One other element,
2009
01:42:46.449 --> 01:42:49.649
and I don't like to get too far in the
2010
01:42:49.729 --> 01:42:52.729
weeds on this concept, but it is always interesting, is
2011
01:42:53.130 --> 01:43:00.310
the concept of voyeurism in viewing. Because it is a
2012
01:43:00.350 --> 01:43:03.899
theme in the movie. You know, Carl looks in the
2013
01:43:03.939 --> 01:43:10.920
cell and watches, even without being there, like on a
2014
01:43:11.159 --> 01:43:14.340
camera so he's not even seen. So then Catherine goes
2015
01:43:14.380 --> 01:43:19.020
into his mind and until Carl co-ops her, she's just
2016
01:43:19.340 --> 01:43:25.000
a voyeur watching the violence and the cruelty and the
2017
01:43:25.720 --> 01:43:32.380
creation and conception of this monster. Yeah. So she's kind
2018
01:43:32.460 --> 01:43:37.439
of a voyeur in that way. So that's kind of
2019
01:43:37.500 --> 01:43:39.760
a hefty one. But what makes it more hefty is,
2020
01:43:40.560 --> 01:43:44.000
so he has this extravagancy. You know, in his mind
2021
01:43:44.020 --> 01:43:46.000
that we talked about with the flowing silks and the
2022
01:43:46.079 --> 01:43:48.199
this and that and this and that and how he
2023
01:43:48.279 --> 01:43:49.989
thinks that this is like the world he's created. It's
2024
01:43:50.010 --> 01:43:54.449
so gorgeous. But we're sitting there watching it and we're
2025
01:43:54.710 --> 01:43:58.350
seeing the world through his creation through his eyes. So
2026
01:43:58.399 --> 01:44:02.399
we're seeing the cruelty, the violence, the whatever as beautiful ourselves,
2027
01:44:03.079 --> 01:44:05.960
which in a way almost makes us complicit as an audience.
2028
01:44:06.380 --> 01:44:06.560
Oh, yeah.
2029
01:44:07.390 --> 01:44:10.609
Oh, okay. I don't always go because you can make
2030
01:44:10.649 --> 01:44:14.229
that argument pretty easily that audiences are complicit. Yeah. I mean,
2031
01:44:14.590 --> 01:44:16.770
it's not a big deal. Audiences are complicit in all
2032
01:44:16.810 --> 01:44:19.649
kinds of, especially when it's horror, audiences become complicit all
2033
01:44:19.670 --> 01:44:21.520
the time. I mean, you can watch a movie where
2034
01:44:21.560 --> 01:44:22.939
all of a sudden you're like, why am I hoping
2035
01:44:22.960 --> 01:44:25.220
this killer doesn't get caught? It's because they did a
2036
01:44:25.239 --> 01:44:28.300
good job making you feel, you know, whatever they are.
2037
01:44:30.539 --> 01:44:33.539
But that's also just one other element is like the
2038
01:44:33.579 --> 01:44:35.840
fact that it's so lush to look at and stuff.
2039
01:44:36.680 --> 01:44:41.399
is the filmmaker translating Carl into something gorgeous so that
2040
01:44:41.439 --> 01:44:44.039
you will identify with Carl more, so that you will
2041
01:44:44.779 --> 01:44:47.350
understand his hideous world the way he understands it.
2042
01:44:47.880 --> 01:44:48.439
Oh, yeah.
2043
01:44:48.520 --> 01:44:50.739
Yeah, so that could be something that makes you kind
2044
01:44:50.760 --> 01:44:53.859
of uncomfortable. I know I'm stretching now. I thought you'd
2045
01:44:53.880 --> 01:44:56.189
have more counterpoints and disagreements with me, to be honest.
2046
01:44:57.189 --> 01:45:00.449
Oh, sorry. Sometimes you have really good points, and I
2047
01:45:00.470 --> 01:45:01.850
just agree with them.
2048
01:45:03.109 --> 01:45:05.029
But if you want to be really mean to Catherine.
2049
01:45:05.949 --> 01:45:06.210
Oh, no.
2050
01:45:07.939 --> 01:45:12.760
You could look at her as somebody who sees herself
2051
01:45:13.060 --> 01:45:17.939
as so compassionate, like her compassion is so exceptional that
2052
01:45:18.060 --> 01:45:23.199
ordinary limits of reason, sanity, and safety don't apply to her.
2053
01:45:26.479 --> 01:45:29.069
It is a very hostile way of looking at it,
2054
01:45:29.079 --> 01:45:33.850
but the rescuing becomes a personal project to her, you know,
2055
01:45:33.909 --> 01:45:36.729
that she has to save this child inside this guy
2056
01:45:36.770 --> 01:45:40.449
because who else could because and I do think that
2057
01:45:40.689 --> 01:45:43.340
that like I could see that interpretation coming up pretty
2058
01:45:43.520 --> 01:45:47.319
easily when she sees herself as like a savior in
2059
01:45:47.359 --> 01:45:50.300
her own mind I think that that oh absolutely and
2060
01:45:50.340 --> 01:45:52.399
again I actually I think her character is great I'm
2061
01:45:52.579 --> 01:45:54.060
just saying like you know I could be pretty I
2062
01:45:54.640 --> 01:45:57.430
could be pretty harsh to her if you really want
2063
01:45:57.470 --> 01:46:01.390
like there are ways to look at it the other
2064
01:46:01.409 --> 01:46:05.350
the other big one would be like Is it that
2065
01:46:05.409 --> 01:46:07.829
she thinks domination is bad, or is it just that
2066
01:46:07.890 --> 01:46:13.090
she thinks that it should only be her dominating? I mean,
2067
01:46:13.130 --> 01:46:14.850
we touched on it a little bit.
2068
01:46:14.930 --> 01:46:17.689
Yeah, yeah. I get what you're saying there. And I
2069
01:46:17.750 --> 01:46:24.729
definitely think that it's something the filmmakers wanted us to consider.
2070
01:46:26.350 --> 01:46:30.380
Because there is a point... you know, roughly halfway through
2071
01:46:30.399 --> 01:46:33.640
the movie where Catherine and Peter like sit down and
2072
01:46:33.659 --> 01:46:38.260
they have kind of a heart to heart, which is
2073
01:46:38.420 --> 01:46:41.579
how he discovers that, you know, her younger sibling died
2074
01:46:41.640 --> 01:46:45.140
as a child and she kind of discovers his impetus
2075
01:46:45.720 --> 01:46:51.569
to being a detective. And there is kind of like,
2076
01:46:52.029 --> 01:46:56.109
as they're connecting, there is kind of this recognition he
2077
01:46:56.170 --> 01:46:59.069
gives her of like, we're not doing this for Carl.
2078
01:46:59.880 --> 01:47:02.199
we're doing this for Julia and you have to keep
2079
01:47:02.239 --> 01:47:05.770
this in mind that like, we're not there to save Carl. Um,
2080
01:47:06.510 --> 01:47:11.050
but she's still like, that's not her way. Her way
2081
01:47:11.569 --> 01:47:15.430
to save Julia is to connect with Carl, um, and
2082
01:47:15.470 --> 01:47:17.810
kind of take things into her own hands. So yeah,
2083
01:47:17.880 --> 01:47:21.380
she does have kind of like this, um, a little
2084
01:47:21.399 --> 01:47:24.000
bit of an ego where she does seem to think
2085
01:47:24.020 --> 01:47:25.600
that she knows better than everyone else.
2086
01:47:26.319 --> 01:47:29.939
Well, it's like, she needs to be good, but isn't
2087
01:47:30.000 --> 01:47:35.649
necessarily focused on whether she's doing good. Yes. Um, you know,
2088
01:47:35.670 --> 01:47:37.850
in Carl's world, he's a King, right?
2089
01:47:38.050 --> 01:47:38.229
Yeah.
2090
01:47:38.430 --> 01:47:41.630
In her world, she's a Saint, you know, but in
2091
01:47:41.689 --> 01:47:45.130
both they're, they're creating a world, uh, the way they, the,
2092
01:47:45.689 --> 01:47:48.890
in both worlds, the biggest thing they get to decide,
2093
01:47:49.090 --> 01:47:52.899
the only thing they get to decide is what happens
2094
01:47:53.100 --> 01:47:56.560
to the vulnerable, right? Oh, okay. I mean, that's the
2095
01:47:56.579 --> 01:47:58.560
only thing you get to decide. There's nothing else. There's
2096
01:47:58.579 --> 01:48:01.460
no one else there, whatever. She goes in there thinking
2097
01:48:01.560 --> 01:48:04.779
she can save the innocent child inside him, but then
2098
01:48:04.819 --> 01:48:07.970
she hurts the child while attacking him, you know, because
2099
01:48:08.010 --> 01:48:15.630
they're the same. Then gives his death meaning of her salvation. Sorry,
2100
01:48:15.649 --> 01:48:17.930
I was having trouble really gathering my words and my
2101
01:48:18.010 --> 01:48:20.310
notes are, I'm not I'm not a good note taker
2102
01:48:20.329 --> 01:48:23.149
and I'm not taking really strong notes so I sometimes
2103
01:48:23.170 --> 01:48:24.420
I'm like I have to read this three times to
2104
01:48:24.439 --> 01:48:25.909
figure out what I was thinking when I wrote when
2105
01:48:25.939 --> 01:48:29.720
I wrote down like you know you know turn signal
2106
01:48:29.739 --> 01:48:30.579
pickle I'm like what.
2107
01:48:30.479 --> 01:48:32.720
The hell was I saying it just says worm hat.
2108
01:48:32.840 --> 01:48:35.380
Worm hat that's funny that's that's way better than mine
2109
01:48:36.699 --> 01:48:43.359
but afterward So keep in mind that after she saves Carl,
2110
01:48:45.270 --> 01:48:47.890
she doesn't look at it as like, I killed somebody.
2111
01:48:48.949 --> 01:48:50.329
She doesn't really look at it. She looks at it
2112
01:48:50.369 --> 01:48:52.770
strictly as I saved him. She looks at it as like,
2113
01:48:52.869 --> 01:48:56.729
I am now a bigger authority in this type of
2114
01:48:56.789 --> 01:49:00.289
therapy than ever before, even though my only successful patient
2115
01:49:00.529 --> 01:49:04.670
I personally killed. They didn't die because of my therapy.
2116
01:49:04.689 --> 01:49:05.750
They died because I killed them.
2117
01:49:06.090 --> 01:49:07.810
Yeah. By my hand.
2118
01:49:08.600 --> 01:49:11.640
So then the first thought is, okay, so in my world,
2119
01:49:12.520 --> 01:49:17.770
I killed a kid. Now let's get another kid in here. Now,
2120
01:49:17.789 --> 01:49:19.010
of course he's not demented.
2121
01:49:19.470 --> 01:49:20.090
Yeah.
2122
01:49:20.109 --> 01:49:22.850
So I mean, again, this is me being bad faith.
2123
01:49:22.970 --> 01:49:25.609
I mean, this is me being devil's advocate against her
2124
01:49:25.649 --> 01:49:27.960
a little bit, but that's why, but like, that's my
2125
01:49:28.000 --> 01:49:30.520
point is like, you could take it as she's realized
2126
01:49:30.579 --> 01:49:33.100
a purity beyond all that. If you want to go
2127
01:49:33.140 --> 01:49:36.680
the total other way, it's that. killing Carl for mercy
2128
01:49:36.760 --> 01:49:38.739
was like hell for her because it's the one thing
2129
01:49:38.779 --> 01:49:41.630
she would never want. And that her doing it was
2130
01:49:41.670 --> 01:49:44.310
her ultimate act of selflessness. You can go the totally.
2131
01:49:44.470 --> 01:49:44.970
Oh yeah.
2132
01:49:45.310 --> 01:49:47.710
So I don't want, I really, I don't want anybody
2133
01:49:47.729 --> 01:49:49.149
to think I'm sitting here saying like, all I'm saying
2134
01:49:49.170 --> 01:49:51.770
is that that movie has a, has a Latina Hitler
2135
01:49:51.810 --> 01:49:54.689
in it. That's not my point. You know, I would
2136
01:49:54.710 --> 01:49:58.399
never say that about JLo. Um, so yeah, So I
2137
01:49:58.439 --> 01:50:00.180
guess my point is, like, if you want to look
2138
01:50:00.239 --> 01:50:02.970
at it, like, really negatively toward her because of the
2139
01:50:03.010 --> 01:50:06.430
way things went and how complicated they are, maybe she
2140
01:50:06.489 --> 01:50:11.229
has had massive personal growth or maybe she learned that
2141
01:50:11.409 --> 01:50:15.600
absolute control is totally acceptable as long as her understanding
2142
01:50:15.609 --> 01:50:17.260
of compassion is being executed.
2143
01:50:17.279 --> 01:50:18.539
Yeah.
2144
01:50:19.090 --> 01:50:19.329
Yeah.
2145
01:50:19.529 --> 01:50:21.399
I really lucked out with the phrasing at the end.
2146
01:50:21.439 --> 01:50:22.859
I was like, how am I going to land here?
2147
01:50:23.060 --> 01:50:25.399
And the words came just fine. I'm just getting old.
2148
01:50:25.420 --> 01:50:26.319
You stuck the landing.
2149
01:50:26.340 --> 01:50:26.760
You got it.
2150
01:50:27.079 --> 01:50:27.600
You got it.
2151
01:50:27.800 --> 01:50:31.859
But I really loved talking about this one and being
2152
01:50:31.979 --> 01:50:34.630
a bit evil. I feel like we should just restructure
2153
01:50:34.670 --> 01:50:38.670
the show into me being an attorney for the movie.
2154
01:50:38.869 --> 01:50:40.770
And one of us has to be prosecutor and one
2155
01:50:40.789 --> 01:50:42.329
of us has to be defense. But it doesn't matter
2156
01:50:42.350 --> 01:50:45.010
how we actually feel about the movie. That's kind of
2157
01:50:45.029 --> 01:50:47.829
how it is when I'm on Andrew Heaton's alienating the audience,
2158
01:50:47.850 --> 01:50:49.810
because sometimes he really doesn't like the movie. And I
2159
01:50:49.970 --> 01:50:53.300
do because I'm the best audience for most things. So
2160
01:50:53.340 --> 01:50:55.479
I'll just defend every bad choice he says was made
2161
01:50:55.500 --> 01:50:57.199
in the script by like, well, actually, what if it
2162
01:50:57.239 --> 01:50:58.819
was because of this? And he was like, you're like
2163
01:50:59.159 --> 01:51:02.579
their attorney. Well, that would be saying we got to
2164
01:51:02.600 --> 01:51:04.779
get out of here. It's I got to make you
2165
01:51:04.800 --> 01:51:08.149
some chopped cheeses. So but thank you guys so much
2166
01:51:08.170 --> 01:51:10.010
for hanging out with us. This was a really, really
2167
01:51:10.069 --> 01:51:12.449
fun one. I've had a very stressful couple of weeks,
2168
01:51:12.649 --> 01:51:15.229
even though it was fun. So this ended up being
2169
01:51:15.239 --> 01:51:17.189
really fun, even though I'm recording like nine hours a
2170
01:51:17.229 --> 01:51:19.630
day right now to get ready for Halloween. I hope
2171
01:51:19.670 --> 01:51:22.829
you guys are all excited about Halloween. Our next film,
2172
01:51:23.250 --> 01:51:24.630
you want to tell the kids at home?
2173
01:51:25.050 --> 01:51:28.989
Yeah, well, we did already tease it. So we're going
2174
01:51:29.010 --> 01:51:31.550
to be, we teased it at the beginning of the episode.
2175
01:51:31.590 --> 01:51:33.899
We're going to be watching Hellraiser.
2176
01:51:34.560 --> 01:51:41.000
The original from 1987. 1987. And it's available to watch
2177
01:51:41.199 --> 01:51:44.300
free on Tubi TV with ads. So anybody could check
2178
01:51:44.340 --> 01:51:46.939
out Hellraiser. If you haven't seen it before, that's bizarre.
2179
01:51:47.619 --> 01:51:50.600
But please do check it out. And if you need
2180
01:51:50.619 --> 01:51:54.229
to revisit, it's also on Pluto TV, Amazon Prime, free
2181
01:51:54.250 --> 01:51:57.350
with ads or with your subscription. Plex, free with ads.
2182
01:51:57.630 --> 01:51:59.510
And of course, you rent it at any place like that.
2183
01:51:59.829 --> 01:52:02.350
That will be our next film. And perfect. That'll be
2184
01:52:02.409 --> 01:52:06.810
our first of two Halloween episodes of Cutting Deep into Horror.
2185
01:52:07.609 --> 01:52:09.170
I think we're going to have a good time with it,
2186
01:52:09.369 --> 01:52:13.899
even if I'm falling asleep and you're pouring espresso into
2187
01:52:13.920 --> 01:52:15.300
my sinuses.
2188
01:52:14.800 --> 01:52:15.979
To keep me awake during it. Oh, I'm going to
2189
01:52:16.000 --> 01:52:16.600
get an IV drip going.
2190
01:52:16.899 --> 01:52:20.220
That's honestly very wise, I think. Thank you guys so
2191
01:52:20.239 --> 01:52:22.460
much for joining us on Cutting Deep into Horror. If
2192
01:52:22.479 --> 01:52:25.979
you want to send us an email, do so at weeklyspookyatgmail.com.
2193
01:52:26.000 --> 01:52:27.319
We'd love to hear from you. Tell us what you
2194
01:52:27.340 --> 01:52:30.500
think about the movie conversations, movies we should watch, movies
2195
01:52:31.119 --> 01:52:32.850
we were right about, wrong about. We would love to
2196
01:52:32.859 --> 01:52:36.300
hear from you. So send us an email, weeklyspooky at gmail.com.
2197
01:52:36.319 --> 01:52:38.340
We'll be back in a couple of weeks sharing even
2198
01:52:38.399 --> 01:52:42.380
more fun about Hellraiser and all the weird stuff that
2199
01:52:42.699 --> 01:52:45.100
comes with Hellraiser. There's a lot of it. I can't wait.
2200
01:52:45.510 --> 01:52:48.010
And if you love what we're doing here, head to weeklyspooky.com
2201
01:52:48.029 --> 01:52:49.550
slash join and find out how you can support us
2202
01:52:49.569 --> 01:52:51.810
for as little as $ 1 a month, get two bonus shows,
2203
01:52:52.329 --> 01:52:54.510
and really make a difference for the show. But now
2204
01:52:54.770 --> 01:52:58.829
I am going to go into my own personal... world
2205
01:52:58.869 --> 01:53:01.829
where I am God and cook a really good dinner. Uh,
2206
01:53:01.890 --> 01:53:03.750
so we'll see you all next time.