The Workforce Management Journey Series: Episode 3

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Good day, everyone. Welcome to Workforce on Deck.
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And this is episode four of our special podcast series we got put together here.
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And of course, I have Dr. Sarah Inman with me and our special guest,
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Mickey Angelo, co-host for this series.
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And yeah, we want to jump right in today. We're going to talk about scheduling
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when it comes to healthcare scheduling.
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There's a lot of nuances there we want to dive into, you know,
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from, you know, some best practices to what you need, but also some of the downsides
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if you don't have good scheduling, right?
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What's the impact on your teams and employees and stuff like that,
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right? Really want to dig in there too.
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And we want to understand the art of possible, but also, you know,
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we want to incentivize you to do the right things and do them well and do them the right way.
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So let's jump in. Let's talk about a little bit. Before we go any further, Dr.
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Inman, Mickey, anything you
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guys want to add and anything else we want to make sure we cover today?
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I think from my perspective, this is one of the greatest areas of opportunity,
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A, to take care of our patients well, B, to see financial impact in our organization.
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I think we can't solve all of the staffing crisis, but if we don't utilize who
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we do have available well, we're
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doing a disservice to an industry that's financially hurting right now.
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And then I think most importantly, or I don't know that I would put it over
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patient care, but taking care of the nurses and the staff that are caring for
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our patients, it's just so critical.
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And I think it hurts my heart to watch us not do it well.
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And so I think when I think of this series, I think this is one of those pinnacle
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moments where there's a ton of opportunity to make a huge impact.
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So I'm super excited to dig in.
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I would agree. And I don't want to sound disingenuous because I talk about staffing
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all the time. So it seems like.
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Every conversation about staffing and scheduling is important,
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but really a few of the things that we want to focus on here are the financial
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implications of not managing a schedule in an optimized fashion,
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if you will, and not necessarily going to bore you to death diving into all
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the minutia of what you can do.
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There's myriad ways that you can balance a schedule and you can optimize a schedule.
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But there are a lot of downstream implications that I feel like people are not
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truly wrapping their heads around.
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And if you look at a schedule over a six-month or one-year period that truly
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is not optimized, and you look at the financial impacts of that,
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that's an FTE or that's multiple FTEs.
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So when you're already looking at a short-staffed unit and you realize that
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that's additional staff that you could have had taking care of your patients
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or relieving nurses or CNAs or respiratory therapists, because it's not all about nursing.
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So we're not just talking about nursing staffing and scheduling here.
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This could be any type of schedule that we're looking at across the spectrum.
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It really starts to have a different impact and it starts to hit home a little bit differently.
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So just one of the few things that we're going to talk about here today.
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So excited about the conversation as per usual.
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I have a question for you on this. And if I mentioned this in a prior episode,
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you can throw tomatoes at me and tell me I'm nuts because it all starts to run
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together. We talk about this stuff so much.
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I think here's the interesting thing about this topic, though.
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Nursing is an evidence-based practice. And so we look at peer-reviewed papers
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and we look at our clinical outcomes and it's all about evidence.
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Like, hey, we're driving our behaviors based off of this evidence.
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I feel like when we talk staffing and scheduling, that whole idea gets thrown
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out the window and it is an emotional-based practice before it is an evidence-based practice.
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And I think that's when I think of that greatest opportunity.
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Do you see the same or am I completely losing my mind.
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I a million percent see the same to the extent where when I am in conversations
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with executive teams or I am in a optimization engagement with clients for what we do for a living.
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If I mention evidence-based practices and staffing sometimes,
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I have gotten yelled down in rooms because there is so much emotion around staffing.
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And the concept of evidence-based practices sometimes completely goes out the window.
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Even though, as you mentioned, this is an industry that is.
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Found it on the idea and the concepts around evidence-based
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practice and data and being able
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to replicate the studies and peer review and
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how many times was it double blind placebo
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this and this but you mentioned evidence-based and
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that the data doesn't support xyz position when it comes to staffing and people
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start hollering and it's very interesting to see how much emotion drives the
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decisions that are made in those real-time conversations that are happening in house supervisors'
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offices at shift change or even sometimes when you're making hiring decisions.
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So when you look at the financials, that does not parlay, I guess you could
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say, because you're seeing the actual implications of that.
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And I think some of these CFOs and CNOs who have to look at these numbers,
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forget at how contentious and how emotional and heated those conversations tend
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to be when you are in the moment and you're having to make those decisions and
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all of those things fly out the window.
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So I digress because I think we could probably have a whole episode around there.
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And I would love to bring in some actual clinicians who are part of those conversations
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every single day and get their perspectives because, oh boy,
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I think that one would be heated.
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Reel us in, Vince. Reel us in. Yes, I am going to really in,
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but I'm actually going to really in and dive in.
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We're going to dive in at the same time because I like this topic because in
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my world, we hit objections at the same time in retail, right?
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Now, it's kind of evidence in retail is labor standards, right?
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Along with volume drivers.
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It's a little bit different, right? You know, from a healthcare perspective,
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they're similar, but there's always objections of, well, you always got to have people.
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I mean, you know, I don't want to get into the arguments of retail.
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But let's dive in a little bit. So you said it can get very heated.
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And that there can be these emotional objections.
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Let's talk about a couple of those. What are some of the biggest or most common
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emotional responses that people get of, no, no, no, we can't do that.
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And here's why we can't do it. What are some of those and how do you,
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not debunk, but how do you,
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how do you leverage the evidence to actually overcome those in a logical way
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that people can digest and at least take a step back and do an assessment to
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say, okay, you might be right.
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And here's why I am letting my emotion get it because this is the way we've
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always done it or whatever the case may be. So let's hit, let's hit a couple of those.
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What you got? You literally just said it. We've always done it that way.
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We've always done it that way. This is how you do it in healthcare.
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It's the 787 P shifts, the 312s, the this is how we always done it is without
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fail in probably every single engagement I've ever been in.
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The number one objection that I hear as to why we can't do something different
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is because we do evidence-based practice and because we've always done it this
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way and we all do it this way.
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We can't try something different because we've got to stick to this,
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is what I hear all the time.
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And there is a lot of motion tied behind that because people are very fearful
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that if they go out on a limb and they try something different and it doesn't
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work, that people leave and they're not going to be able to get folks to come back.
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And there is, as consultants and people who do what we do for a living,
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there is risk behind that in providing alternate solutions or recommendations because.
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Sure, what does happen if you make a recommendation and say,
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try this innovative staffing recommendation or this method and you have a mass
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exodus and now people can't staff their hospitals.
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So you have to be able to show the data behind what other organizations have
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tried, be able to show numbers to where even if it's not an exact solution.
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It's showing the data, the modeling, showing the different options behind if this, then that.
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You have to be able to model the behaviors and model what the.
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The metrics could be in order to speak to what the numbers could look like.
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Because again, for all that these are data-minded and evidence-based practitioners,
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the emotion and fear behind it is very real.
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And I think we've spoken to this on a prior episode, but as somebody who's lived
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it and understood it myself, I can empathize with the fear of not being able
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to safely care for your patients, that this is not a control issue.
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This is not just a, I don't want to give it up because this is my schedule and this is what I do.
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There is real fear there because they are worried about not being able to provide safe care.
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So you also have to make sure that you are not just handling it from the overcoming
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objections and showing them with numbers and data that these solutions that
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you're providing are feasible and possible,
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but also managing the emotion behind it of,
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I am afraid because there are people's lives in my hands that I am responsible for.
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And I need to make sure as the consultant, as the executive sponsor of this
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project, that I am addressing that genuine concern as well as part of the engagement. And that's hard.
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Yeah. Go ahead, Nikki. I think you got something too.
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I do. And I'm going to double click into that a little bit because I think you're dead.
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And And I think it's amazing that we're both hearing the same thing.
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We don't always deal with the same healthcare organizations.
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We do sometimes, but not usually.
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But we're hearing the same thing over and over. And let's talk about,
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I want to unpack what I see that look like when I talk about schedule creation
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and where that fear and emotion comes in.
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Because when we look at schedule creation, a lot of times what I see is one
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of two methods are followed.
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And both are kind of rooted in this fear thing. And I think your description
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of the fear is dead on. It's, it's,
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It's out of a desire to care for our patients and care for our people.
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But what I usually see is, hey, we're going to create our schedules based on average daily census.
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And good intentions, right? But not understanding where the data falls.
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Well, that might work well if you're a unit that is always running max capacity.
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Average daily census is going to work fine for you. I'm not going to push back significantly.
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But if you're a unit that has significant census volume swings through the week,
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you are putting yourself in a position of not taking care of your people in patient care.
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And we see the symptoms of low census every Thursday, for example.
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And where I'm, but at the same time, I'm understaffed these other days of the week.
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And we know the impact that has on patient care and employee engagement, employee well-being.
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And so there's that challenge of, hey, if you, if you create a schedule to average
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daily census, you're really hurting what you're actually trying to do these other days of the week.
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And then there's the other side where I see, hey, we're always going to schedule to max capacity.
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And that that whenever that happens and
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you start unpacking to why
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that's where the fear comes out of but what
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if what if i get more pain what if i get more patience what if acuity is high
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what if what and and it's rooted in in this this what if mentality and knowing
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that getting staff is so hard so i'm going to create that stuff but you don't
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have enough staff to fill those shifts anyway,
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and you end up with those gaps in inopportune areas because we didn't use it. So.
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I think it's dead on and you just see it play out in these ways that you're
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like, man, I still want to come alongside you and just give you a hug.
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And then I want to dig into this together. Yeah.
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You can't tell them like, just, oh, don't worry about it because they've had that fear realized.
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They've sent a nurse home only to have the ED explode with a bunch of admits.
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And so these things have perpetuated themselves over the years.
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And we say, don't worry. And they go, okay, famous last words.
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Yeah, but those types of objections are relatively easy to overcome with logic
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because you can't predict those.
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I don't care what kind of schedule you have, right? You know, that example.
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But these are people who will tell you, like, listen, it's a full moon,
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so I don't want to work in the ED on a full moon because the ED is gonna, you know, explode.
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So again, like, what's what?
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And then what actually happens are two very different things.
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Right. I I mean, look, I have a daughter who's a teacher and she'll tell you the same thing.
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She doesn't want to teach on a full moon because the kids are crazy,
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which, you know, sometimes I do question that.
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But so what I heard you guys say a little bit, and I just want to kind of put
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this in a different vernacular, I guess.
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If you look at their reasoning for why they want to do things,
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you can almost flip the coin and say, why?
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You can almost flip the coin and say, well, show me how this wouldn't work.
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Right? To say, okay, this is what you're saying. This is your justification.
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Now let's look at what's actually typically really happening.
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And let's talk about what the schedule would look like and how that shadows
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against what is really happening.
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And tell me why it wouldn't work, right? They're still going to come up with the reasons, right?
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They're still going to go, well, but you know, people aren't going to like it,
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whatever the case may be.
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So I think that that's understanding is how can, so I want to dive into that more.
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What are some of the ways that you literally take people through that change conversation?
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How do you, you know, overcome those objections?
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You know, it's a story, right? And that's where I want to kind of take you is
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how do you lead someone through that?
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How do you get them past what is their norm? I think for me,
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Because we're talking emotion, you have to start there. You have to meet them where they're at.
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If we're not leading in, and listen, I'll be honest, sometimes I'm guilty of
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being the data guy, and I got to pull myself into that and be like,
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wait, these are people that feel this for a reason.
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If I don't meet them where they're at emotionally, I can invite them into the
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journey, but they have no interest in that train at all.
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So I have to meet them where they're at and talk about this is
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real and talk about why like what hurts are
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they experiencing today and personally what
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I found most valuable is just continuing to
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ask questions about where are your pain points why are those
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pain points and as you ask those questions of
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why do you do it this way or what are you experiencing or
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you know what's been the outcome because of this like
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if you if you guide the conversation through
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these questions and allowing them to arrive at
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the conclusion a lot more success as
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a whole that you know we can reach to a point
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that okay now we can look at the data and understand where
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it's working because they went along the journey to understand what they're
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doing today isn't accomplishing what their heart really wants to be able to
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forget about the business side because again we're starting an emotion so we
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got to get them to understand that's not even working for that side today at
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least that's what I've experienced. Have you experienced the same, sir?
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Yeah, very much so. And I, one of my favorite, you know, I'm giving away the
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giving away the farm here, but one of my favorite exercises walking them through
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pretend you're me and you're coming into this organization and,
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how would you approach this problem? If you were coming into this,
00:16:52.158 --> 00:16:57.318
not from your vantage point of nurse manager or running the staffing office
00:16:57.318 --> 00:17:01.738
or frontline nurse or running respiratory therapy, or again,
00:17:01.878 --> 00:17:05.498
I'm trying to get out of the nurse staffing. We're not just talking about nursing here.
00:17:05.758 --> 00:17:10.518
Having them go through the exercise of, if you were looking at this problem,
00:17:11.058 --> 00:17:13.198
how would you solve this through a different lens?
00:17:13.438 --> 00:17:18.518
So having them look at it from the perspective of the different viewpoint.
00:17:18.798 --> 00:17:24.618
So not able to answer it as, no, no, no, we can't do it. We can't fix it that way.
00:17:24.898 --> 00:17:30.978
Having to give me reasons why something could work, very similarly to how we
00:17:30.978 --> 00:17:33.918
do this with our kids, taking them through the Socratic questioning.
00:17:34.238 --> 00:17:39.678
And it's incredible how I've had success in that because it's forced them to
00:17:39.678 --> 00:17:43.078
look at the problem through the lens of.
00:17:43.838 --> 00:17:48.598
Okay, now that I'm saying it out loud because Edmund's forcing me to go through
00:17:48.598 --> 00:17:49.918
this ridiculous exercise.
00:17:50.118 --> 00:17:52.198
And of course, it would never work, but I'll humor her.
00:17:52.418 --> 00:17:56.238
Then they say it out loud and they're looking around the conference room table
00:17:56.238 --> 00:17:59.638
and their peers are nodding going, oh, that's a good idea.
00:17:59.858 --> 00:18:02.558
They go, oh, wait a second.
00:18:03.018 --> 00:18:06.638
Maybe that is a good idea. Or maybe that would work here.
00:18:06.838 --> 00:18:09.958
Or hold on a second. maybe this is
00:18:09.958 --> 00:18:13.498
a little bit of closed-minded thinking that I've
00:18:13.498 --> 00:18:17.078
assumed that something like this couldn't work here or maybe I've
00:18:17.078 --> 00:18:20.158
not been giving my staff enough credit or the organization
00:18:20.158 --> 00:18:24.078
enough credit so it really is just
00:18:24.078 --> 00:18:26.898
allowing them the space to walk through these
00:18:26.898 --> 00:18:29.818
paradigm shifts of we don't always
00:18:29.818 --> 00:18:33.378
have to do things the way we've always done them and sometimes it's just a matter
00:18:33.378 --> 00:18:37.698
of getting them to say it out loud and acknowledge it themselves even if it's
00:18:37.698 --> 00:18:42.378
through a little bit of trickery because they're playing pretend around a conference
00:18:42.378 --> 00:18:46.998
room table and they're putting themselves in the shoes of a consultant coming in.
00:18:47.618 --> 00:18:50.398
And sometimes that doesn't work because they go...
00:18:51.362 --> 00:18:54.362
I can't play the role of consultant because there's absolutely nothing that
00:18:54.362 --> 00:18:58.642
can be done. I don't know why you're here. I don't know why anyone's here. We're a lost cause.
00:18:59.022 --> 00:19:02.142
And I've yet to find an example of where that's true.
00:19:02.402 --> 00:19:06.602
Because while there is no panacea or magic pill for any of this,
00:19:06.622 --> 00:19:07.962
if there were, we wouldn't be here.
00:19:08.102 --> 00:19:12.782
We would be off enjoying our billions of dollars because we've discovered the cure for this.
00:19:13.002 --> 00:19:15.282
There are things that can be done.
00:19:15.522 --> 00:19:20.422
There are a multitude of small things that we can do to make it a little bit
00:19:20.422 --> 00:19:22.222
better. Let me ask a question there.
00:19:22.342 --> 00:19:26.042
You said, I know one of the things I've done in the past is prior to those types
00:19:26.042 --> 00:19:29.162
of conversations, which I think are fantastic conversations to have.
00:19:29.722 --> 00:19:32.582
And, you know, I think the combination of those two, you know,
00:19:32.622 --> 00:19:34.982
things that you guys said just play well.
00:19:34.982 --> 00:19:39.582
The other thing I've done is I've tiptoed myself into those situations,
00:19:39.922 --> 00:19:44.182
got people thinking about it just a tiny bit, and then I would step back and
00:19:44.182 --> 00:19:45.362
actually run the scenarios.
00:19:46.042 --> 00:19:50.562
And what I mean by that is do the analysis, right?
00:19:50.862 --> 00:19:54.182
I mean, if you were to take some of these locations that you're working with,
00:19:54.262 --> 00:19:58.242
hospitals you're working with, and run the schedules the way you think they
00:19:58.242 --> 00:20:04.742
should be run from a data perspective and everything else, and then look at what the impact is.
00:20:04.982 --> 00:20:08.442
Would be, you might be able to come with good news.
00:20:08.802 --> 00:20:10.822
I don't know if you guys see this or not. And this is a little bit of,
00:20:10.822 --> 00:20:13.962
this is leading to a question is if you were to do that, I mean,
00:20:14.422 --> 00:20:18.482
part of me says, okay, you know, when I ran it in retail, we actually found
00:20:18.482 --> 00:20:23.362
out that we could be hiring differently and they would actually make the people
00:20:23.362 --> 00:20:25.462
on the floor's lives better,
00:20:26.022 --> 00:20:29.182
because you're now able to change how you're hiring,
00:20:29.402 --> 00:20:33.482
how you're staffing, you're hitting when the demand is actually there,
00:20:33.642 --> 00:20:38.742
when the workload is there, and you're reducing stress level potentially in
00:20:38.742 --> 00:20:41.182
the right times where the peaks typically happen.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.560
Is that, I mean, I don't know if that makes sense from a healthcare perspective
00:20:45.560 --> 00:20:48.920
and I think it very much does.
00:20:49.100 --> 00:20:54.040
I know one of the things that I also will lead with or not usually lead with,
00:20:54.180 --> 00:20:56.720
to be honest, because I got to figure out, find out what's going on first.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.860
But once I find out what's going on, is taking some of these staffing,
00:21:01.320 --> 00:21:07.440
scheduling, staffing, some of these data points and where the emotion is tied
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:13.520
to and tie it to some other outcomes that we know are troubling the leaders.
00:21:13.520 --> 00:21:17.560
And again, it's a good call out, not just nurse leaders, but across the board.
00:21:17.800 --> 00:21:22.760
Things like, tell me about what burnout looks like across the organization and
00:21:22.760 --> 00:21:30.620
tying in fatigue or turnover numbers to units that are doing this good, well or poorly.
00:21:31.060 --> 00:21:35.420
And showing that there's a relation between that type of information.
00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:39.540
And so, because now I'm starting to tie in things that they're like,
00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:41.660
man, they know they have a turnover problem.
00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:46.860
They want to overcome this problem. or saying, oh, wait, part of your problem is actually this.
00:21:47.280 --> 00:21:52.400
And by creating that relationship, you can elicit some buy-in within that.
00:21:52.540 --> 00:21:56.900
If I understood your question correctly, that is, it's using data a little bit
00:21:56.900 --> 00:21:58.760
differently to accomplish that.
00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:03.000
Yeah, it is. It's hearing their objections, like you guys laid out,
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.760
talking them through it, getting them to a point, and then taking the data and leveraging it.
00:22:08.503 --> 00:22:11.143
You know, with their conversations to show them how you're going to actually
00:22:11.143 --> 00:22:12.343
solve some of those problems.
00:22:12.823 --> 00:22:17.563
You know, it's, look, at the end of the day, it's always the whiff them,
00:22:17.783 --> 00:22:20.603
you know, what's in it for me that people care about.
00:22:21.363 --> 00:22:24.403
And, you know, so I think you always got to tie it back to that.
00:22:24.543 --> 00:22:28.623
And, and, and, and I don't mean that facetiously, right. I mean it from a perspective,
00:22:28.803 --> 00:22:32.443
what's in it for them may be that they want to make sure they are protected.
00:22:32.443 --> 00:22:38.183
They are taking care that, you know, those coming into the hospital are in their care already.
00:22:38.563 --> 00:22:42.843
So, you know, that that's what matters most to them. And so you got to make
00:22:42.843 --> 00:22:46.083
sure you tie back to that and make your guys' approach as well.
00:22:46.503 --> 00:22:51.223
What are some of those key data points that you hit on that you think make that
00:22:51.223 --> 00:22:53.723
right? I mean, there's, what's most critical?
00:22:53.963 --> 00:22:57.863
Is it the volume? Is it the census data? Is it the cue? What is it that you
00:22:57.863 --> 00:23:02.723
guys like to leverage that in those conversations and to influence with?
00:23:02.863 --> 00:23:08.503
I'm looking at overtime because I'm tying overtime to things like turnover.
00:23:08.903 --> 00:23:15.763
I'm tying those back to things that may not necessarily be something I can put
00:23:15.763 --> 00:23:19.923
a tangible data point to, like burnout, employee well-being.
00:23:20.283 --> 00:23:23.323
So if they've got different metrics that I'm able to pull from,
00:23:23.563 --> 00:23:27.663
maybe employee engagement scores, things of that nature that they've pulled
00:23:27.663 --> 00:23:32.903
from their employee surveys, I want to look at all of that so that I can paint
00:23:32.903 --> 00:23:34.183
a picture for them to say,
00:23:34.463 --> 00:23:38.383
here's how these metrics tie together to tell a story.
00:23:38.623 --> 00:23:43.663
And you being short-staffed in this department, you're going to be able to tell a story
00:23:43.927 --> 00:23:47.727
ties to your scores that you have over here and your retention.
00:23:48.227 --> 00:23:52.127
Your turnover, the engagement, the well-being of your staff,
00:23:52.347 --> 00:23:56.907
the ability to recruit staff from other areas.
00:23:56.907 --> 00:24:01.327
All of these things are all working together in ways that may not necessarily
00:24:01.327 --> 00:24:04.507
show up in just one or two metrics.
00:24:04.967 --> 00:24:09.187
So those are the types of things that I like to look at and the things that I like to see.
00:24:09.187 --> 00:24:13.087
And to your earlier appointments about being able to run the numbers,
00:24:13.367 --> 00:24:16.207
that modeling is really important because being able
00:24:16.207 --> 00:24:22.767
to show having two additional FTEs staffed within a department and what that
00:24:22.767 --> 00:24:27.467
can do from a financial perspective over the course of a year without running
00:24:27.467 --> 00:24:35.087
over time or without needing to run people at breakneck speeds is really, really valuable.
00:24:35.087 --> 00:24:37.607
Again, when you're looking at all of those metrics together.
00:24:37.907 --> 00:24:42.187
So it really, I think, depends on the conversation you're having and what the
00:24:42.187 --> 00:24:43.947
specific problems are in an organization.
00:24:43.967 --> 00:24:48.207
And it's one of the things that I love so much about working in healthcare,
00:24:48.207 --> 00:24:53.907
but also one of the challenges of working in healthcare is none of these problems are cookie cutter.
00:24:54.187 --> 00:24:58.887
So while they all have the same problems, none of them are unique.
00:24:59.347 --> 00:25:03.287
Every organization has a slightly different flavor of the problem,
00:25:03.287 --> 00:25:05.767
which means every single place we go into,
00:25:06.087 --> 00:25:10.667
you have to look at it from a completely different angle and figure out how
00:25:10.667 --> 00:25:15.527
you're going to slice and dice it in order to best help solve it or at least mitigate it a bit.
00:25:15.687 --> 00:25:19.007
It means things are never boring, but it also means it's impossible to turn
00:25:19.007 --> 00:25:23.927
our brains off in terms of how we're going to help at least minimize it because.
00:25:24.527 --> 00:25:29.167
We need to go in and look at each one almost as if we're diagnosing a patient
00:25:29.167 --> 00:25:35.367
in terms of what the underlying symptoms are and what the causes are of the
00:25:35.367 --> 00:25:39.367
problem that we're having because I can't just go in and say,
00:25:39.627 --> 00:25:41.527
yep, it's turnover. Yep, it's retention.
00:25:41.827 --> 00:25:44.767
Here's your magic pill that you can take that's going to solve it.
00:25:44.907 --> 00:25:48.467
And it's what keeps us in business. And it's also what keeps us up at night.
00:25:49.212 --> 00:25:52.972
You totally stole my line of thought, and I'm so upset over here.
00:25:53.152 --> 00:25:57.732
So I know you're the doctor, but my initials are MD, and that's exactly,
00:25:57.732 --> 00:25:59.672
I think, the way that I approach this is.
00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:04.420
I really, I don't think it's any different than our clinicians who are gathering
00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:09.680
symptoms about a patient and trying to diagnose the one or two core issues that
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:10.880
are leading to those symptoms.
00:26:11.060 --> 00:26:15.000
And so you've highlighted a couple of those. And I'll throw out a couple other
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.520
data points that I look at.
00:26:16.860 --> 00:26:21.080
I think I mentioned earlier, I look at low census, particularly if I see low
00:26:21.080 --> 00:26:26.620
census by day of week, and I notice spikes in specific units by day of week,
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:31.820
that immediately indicates there's a lack of a balanced schedule and I need
00:26:31.820 --> 00:26:34.600
to double click into that to start understanding some more.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:40.760
I also look at open shift count as a whole. If we see that, if I look at staffing
00:26:40.760 --> 00:26:45.040
matrix and it's calling for six nurses and they have six, but they still have
00:26:45.040 --> 00:26:47.620
three open shifts sitting on that schedule,
00:26:47.980 --> 00:26:51.800
another symptom, another problem that says, hey, there's something going on
00:26:51.800 --> 00:26:55.780
and in this scheduling and staffing process that's wrong.
00:26:55.900 --> 00:27:03.040
Or if I observe a staffing office in those settings and I was just with a customer
00:27:03.040 --> 00:27:09.200
recently and they had one unit that was three under on a day that was scheduled three under.
00:27:09.340 --> 00:27:11.940
That was before call-offs.
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:14.040
And another was seven over.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:19.420
Well, hold on. You should never be seven over.
00:27:19.420 --> 00:27:22.240
Like there's there's there's so there's these
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.160
major data red flags that show
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:28.800
hey there's something going on data wise
00:27:28.800 --> 00:27:32.920
that reflect there's and and quite honestly it's usually not just a data it's
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:37.920
a process problem of going all the way back and evaluating process beginning
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.600
beginning to end you know a lot of times we look at our staffing process and
00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:46.720
say staffing's broke but in this case If you have a broken schedule,
00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:51.700
you're putting yourself behind the eight ball before you even get to the staffing scenario.
00:27:52.580 --> 00:27:56.000
Yeah. I mean, they had the data and still did it wrong. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:56.693 --> 00:27:59.453
So, you know, you do have to dive into it.
00:27:59.533 --> 00:28:03.293
And then it could be, I hate to say this, it could be a people problem, right? Sometimes.
00:28:03.353 --> 00:28:06.713
You know, they're moving people's shifts around to make them happy versus actually
00:28:06.713 --> 00:28:09.833
taking care of their clients and their financial ownership that they have.
00:28:11.053 --> 00:28:15.913
So I think you guys hit it, right? We basically, and I've always thought this,
00:28:16.513 --> 00:28:21.093
we're our clients' doctors when it comes to what we're specialized in.
00:28:21.253 --> 00:28:23.713
You know, only one of us gets to call themselves a doctor.
00:28:24.633 --> 00:28:28.993
Sorry, Mickey, it's not you or me. Um, but the reality is that's what we're doing.
00:28:29.193 --> 00:28:33.973
You know, we're going in and trying to help them and, and all we can do is prescribe
00:28:33.973 --> 00:28:35.433
the best solution as well.
00:28:35.833 --> 00:28:40.093
We can't make you take the medicine, but we can sure convince you and educate
00:28:40.093 --> 00:28:43.413
you on what it will do for you and what the benefits are and what the impacts are.
00:28:43.753 --> 00:28:48.933
So I love that kind of a scenario and, you know, at least you have MD in your name.
00:28:49.153 --> 00:28:53.493
So I was just in a webinar recently and I think this highlights,
00:28:53.753 --> 00:28:59.433
I don't think it's just a fear problem though, because I think this was a clinical, uh,
00:28:59.913 --> 00:29:04.493
executive C-suite clinical leader was talking about, it wasn't talking workforce
00:29:04.493 --> 00:29:10.113
management as a whole, but made the note that, Hey, when, when our clinician,
00:29:10.353 --> 00:29:13.153
our clinicians are smart, intelligent.
00:29:13.913 --> 00:29:16.633
Agile people, they're going to find ways to get things done.
00:29:16.773 --> 00:29:19.513
They've made their careers and just making it happen.
00:29:19.953 --> 00:29:23.033
And I think part of what happens, it's our own fault.
00:29:23.153 --> 00:29:27.113
The rest of us in the industry, we deliver all this technology and these bells
00:29:27.113 --> 00:29:30.893
and whistles, but we don't, and we'll teach them where to click and how to use
00:29:30.893 --> 00:29:33.033
it, but not how it fits within the workflow.
00:29:33.273 --> 00:29:39.353
So they're kind of left their own devices of this is what, this is what it is. And they find a way.
00:29:40.102 --> 00:29:44.582
That's not a deficiency of our clinicians. And so I'm actually,
00:29:44.622 --> 00:29:48.802
I'm calling everyone else, all you administrators out there and all your WFM
00:29:48.802 --> 00:29:50.462
experts, I'm calling you to the carpet.
00:29:50.702 --> 00:29:56.002
If you're not working with your teams, not just how to use whatever technology
00:29:56.002 --> 00:29:59.402
suite you have, but how it fits within a workflow,
00:29:59.682 --> 00:30:04.042
you're setting your clinicians up for success because they're going to find
00:30:04.042 --> 00:30:08.342
a way because they have to find a way, but it's not always going to be the way
00:30:08.342 --> 00:30:10.502
you wanted or the way that's best.
00:30:10.882 --> 00:30:14.702
Well, there's a plug and a reason to call us because we'll actually teach you
00:30:14.702 --> 00:30:18.102
the why and what the effective way to do it is.
00:30:18.742 --> 00:30:23.302
Now, no, I really wanted to just plug you guys and I was trying to set you up with a softball.
00:30:23.942 --> 00:30:27.922
Yeah. Yeah. Freeman right there. That was a walk-off hit right there. Home run.
00:30:28.142 --> 00:30:33.042
So yes, we are workforce on deck and yes, that was a baseball,
00:30:33.042 --> 00:30:36.322
you know, being in right there. So sorry guys.
00:30:36.802 --> 00:30:41.502
Jumping back to the conversation, the topic here. So let's say we have them
00:30:41.502 --> 00:30:46.902
convinced and, you know, we have them understanding what the benefits are and
00:30:46.902 --> 00:30:49.522
what are some others? I mean, let me throw this out there.
00:30:50.302 --> 00:30:53.982
We could build the perfect schedule. Could we actually even have a balance of,
00:30:54.082 --> 00:30:57.422
Hey, we're going to build the perfect schedule, but we're going to allow you
00:30:57.422 --> 00:31:00.362
to actually self-schedule yourself into it.
00:31:00.922 --> 00:31:04.462
Or, you know, I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to think of what What are some
00:31:04.462 --> 00:31:08.702
ways that you can create additional wins? Is that something that you've seen tried before?
00:31:09.042 --> 00:31:13.322
So here's the demand curve. Here's where we actually, the shifts we need filled.
00:31:13.542 --> 00:31:16.362
You guys actually get that flexibility to plug yourself in now.
00:31:16.402 --> 00:31:18.582
I'm going to ask a follow-up question to Sarah on that.
00:31:18.782 --> 00:31:23.402
Do you think our clinical leaders, and again, not just nursing,
00:31:23.582 --> 00:31:24.842
our healthcare leaders,
00:31:25.671 --> 00:31:30.151
Like, I think we've all seen the stats of self-scheduling and the demand on nursing.
00:31:30.371 --> 00:31:33.351
Do we think our leaders understand that demand that's being put on?
00:31:33.511 --> 00:31:38.091
Because I still see a lot of paper scheduling going on, and it makes me think
00:31:38.091 --> 00:31:41.371
they don't understand the impact of really what's being asked for.
00:31:41.651 --> 00:31:48.031
No, I absolutely don't. Gut instinct is when a lot of these conversations are
00:31:48.031 --> 00:31:53.571
happening, typically the people who are around the table are at the very highest
00:31:53.571 --> 00:31:55.431
executive level decision makers.
00:31:56.291 --> 00:32:01.871
And the people who need to be involved, the information's not making its way down to.
00:32:02.031 --> 00:32:06.111
No, is the short answer, is I don't believe that clinical leaders,
00:32:06.211 --> 00:32:11.871
the people who need to truly understand the benefit of it, don't because there
00:32:11.871 --> 00:32:16.331
simply is not enough time in the day to educate them on the value.
00:32:16.531 --> 00:32:22.071
And I know this to be true because when I, again, go in and do optimization
00:32:22.071 --> 00:32:28.411
conversations or have discussions around education about different software that's out there.
00:32:28.571 --> 00:32:33.151
The amount of people who say, I just wish there was something that could do
00:32:33.151 --> 00:32:36.271
X and I just want to bang my head against.
00:32:37.006 --> 00:32:39.786
Because I go, there is, and you
00:32:39.786 --> 00:32:44.746
own it. You literally have it today at the organization that you work for.
00:32:45.006 --> 00:32:51.346
Or there is, and it's very cost effective, and you could implement it in two weeks.
00:32:51.506 --> 00:32:53.906
Or here are the different things that you could be doing.
00:32:54.226 --> 00:33:01.746
And I, in a 30-minute conversation, could help you educate your entire leadership team on how to do ABC.
00:33:02.046 --> 00:33:05.306
It's not for lack of want. It's not for lack of desire.
00:33:05.306 --> 00:33:10.006
There are so many things that need to happen, but all of these different clinical
00:33:10.006 --> 00:33:12.386
teams, nursing, ambulatory.
00:33:12.746 --> 00:33:17.026
Not acute, there are so many things that they're responsible for that they have
00:33:17.026 --> 00:33:22.406
to do within a healthcare environment that the information they need to understand
00:33:22.406 --> 00:33:25.686
the why behind it doesn't make its way to them.
00:33:25.686 --> 00:33:31.046
So the executive leaders think that a lot of this stuff has trickled down or
00:33:31.046 --> 00:33:35.626
the understanding of the value of these things, of having a balanced schedule,
00:33:35.866 --> 00:33:41.666
of the ability to let staff have autonomy behind self-scheduling solutions and
00:33:41.666 --> 00:33:43.546
all of these different things.
00:33:43.546 --> 00:33:47.086
And I think they have bits and pieces of it.
00:33:47.426 --> 00:33:53.326
I don't believe that most places do a very good job of ensuring that the people
00:33:53.326 --> 00:33:57.046
who need it have the full picture at the end of the day.
00:33:57.186 --> 00:34:00.686
I'm struggling with that a little bit because I think it's true.
00:34:00.886 --> 00:34:04.246
And sometimes it's that we don't give them the tools. Like in this case,
00:34:04.406 --> 00:34:07.826
like, hey, you own it but you're not using it.
00:34:07.846 --> 00:34:12.186
But I see a ton of times where not only do they use it, it's built,
00:34:12.326 --> 00:34:17.186
it's been trained, but they haven't adopted it at all. I see that more often. Yeah.
00:34:17.606 --> 00:34:21.366
See, I think it's fair because it's easier to not. And maybe...
00:34:21.963 --> 00:34:24.883
Maybe it's a little bit of Stockholm syndrome because I've been there myself,
00:34:25.023 --> 00:34:26.263
but I've also dealt with it.
00:34:26.483 --> 00:34:32.543
If we're not doing a good job explaining the why behind why they need to use
00:34:32.543 --> 00:34:37.503
it, all those things can be true that they've bought it, they've implemented it, it's there.
00:34:37.823 --> 00:34:44.143
But if you didn't do a good job of showing them how to use it,
00:34:44.543 --> 00:34:49.883
showing them the value behind it, yeah, it may be there and it may work and it may work well.
00:34:49.883 --> 00:34:55.463
But if you didn't explain to them how to use it so it has the necessary output
00:34:55.463 --> 00:34:59.803
so it works well for them, does it really work well?
00:35:00.003 --> 00:35:05.283
And again, the answer may be yes. But if they're not understanding it and they're
00:35:05.283 --> 00:35:10.123
not seeing the value in it, then it's not a valuable tool for them.
00:35:10.123 --> 00:35:13.063
And that's what I tend to see more often than not is, again,
00:35:13.143 --> 00:35:18.443
the executive leaders believe that they provided a valuable solution.
00:35:18.903 --> 00:35:24.323
The software implementation partners believe that they did a good job.
00:35:24.503 --> 00:35:29.883
And the end users are going, I don't know what this is. I can't see my schedule.
00:35:30.143 --> 00:35:34.303
I don't know how to push the buttons. I'm just going to go back to using Excel
00:35:34.303 --> 00:35:37.123
because at least then I know where people are supposed to be.
00:35:37.123 --> 00:35:43.923
And at the end of the day, they've got a really expensive paperweight and all
00:35:43.923 --> 00:35:47.043
of this technology is available to them at their fingertips that they've not
00:35:47.043 --> 00:35:51.943
been able to unlock because there's misdirection or miscommunication somewhere,
00:35:51.943 --> 00:35:54.123
whether it's lack of knowledge,
00:35:54.383 --> 00:35:58.023
lack of education, or just lack of explanation is the why.
00:35:58.023 --> 00:36:04.103
Somebody somewhere didn't connect the dot or in fairness somebody just doesn't
00:36:04.103 --> 00:36:07.443
care and doesn't want to use it and it's a lot easier to say nobody explained
00:36:07.443 --> 00:36:09.443
it to me properly so we're just not going to use it.
00:36:09.603 --> 00:36:13.703
Again go back we've been doing this for 10 years me as a nurse manager this
00:36:13.703 --> 00:36:16.063
is when I've been doing it I'm happy but.
00:36:16.886 --> 00:36:21.766
It breaks my heart because I think I literally in the last 30 days and as early
00:36:21.766 --> 00:36:26.906
as this morning saw three different surveys that noting that clinical teams
00:36:26.906 --> 00:36:32.506
over 80 percent want control over their schedule, specifically self-scheduling.
00:36:32.506 --> 00:36:39.186
And multiple peer review papers showing flexible scheduling is the primary job
00:36:39.186 --> 00:36:43.366
satisfier for our nurses, particularly our younger generation.
00:36:43.866 --> 00:36:47.746
Far above pay or anything else is scheduling flexibility.
00:36:47.926 --> 00:36:52.626
And here there's the tools to offer it. We're not leveraging it and asking ourselves,
00:36:52.786 --> 00:36:54.506
well, why can't I retain nurses?
00:36:56.037 --> 00:37:01.477
So, look, that actually is the number one request across all industries is that
00:37:01.477 --> 00:37:03.297
flexibility, right? Is it really?
00:37:03.837 --> 00:37:07.837
Oh, yes. I mean, it's not allowable in certain ones like manufacturing and things
00:37:07.837 --> 00:37:11.817
like that, right? It's a little tougher to do. But, yes, flexible scheduling.
00:37:12.137 --> 00:37:15.977
I mean, it's uber scheduling, basically. It's you pick when you want to work.
00:37:16.177 --> 00:37:20.117
But there has to be demand. There has to be a curve, you know, a work to do.
00:37:20.217 --> 00:37:24.517
There has to be a balance and all that good stuff. But that's been a talk in
00:37:24.517 --> 00:37:27.677
retail for, you know, almost 10 years now, quite honestly.
00:37:28.117 --> 00:37:31.377
So, absolutely, that permeates everywhere.
00:37:31.897 --> 00:37:37.377
Here's where I think the answer could be, and I want your feedback on this to
00:37:37.377 --> 00:37:42.897
helping solve this, is who is measuring the outcomes?
00:37:42.897 --> 00:37:48.437
Once you've done all this and you've put it in place, who is measuring the outcomes?
00:37:48.497 --> 00:37:51.817
Because if you measure the outcomes and understand why you're not hitting the
00:37:51.817 --> 00:37:55.437
outcomes that you set up at the beginning of this engagement,
00:37:55.437 --> 00:38:00.977
if you did it right, if you're not measuring the outputs on the other side to see how am I doing,
00:38:01.317 --> 00:38:06.017
then no, you're going to fly blind as an executive to know all those things
00:38:06.017 --> 00:38:07.517
I thought were happening or not happening.
00:38:08.037 --> 00:38:10.437
If you're measuring the outcomes, you got to know real fast,
00:38:10.577 --> 00:38:12.217
uh-oh, something's not working.
00:38:13.277 --> 00:38:17.537
And, you know, to me, you know, that's one of the reasons I'd like to stay engaged
00:38:17.537 --> 00:38:22.297
with someone after the fact, too, and keep holding that leadership accountable
00:38:22.297 --> 00:38:26.457
to those metrics to say, you wanted to get here. Did you do it?
00:38:26.997 --> 00:38:31.037
And by the way, now that you have, is there another place we can go?
00:38:31.497 --> 00:38:34.257
It's an evolution. We've talked about that in the past.
00:38:35.314 --> 00:38:38.594
We are not living out the evolution. We're getting them to a point and then
00:38:38.594 --> 00:38:40.954
people are going, we did our job and stepping back.
00:38:41.794 --> 00:38:46.254
And, you know, that's like having a kid and then not raising them.
00:38:46.534 --> 00:38:50.934
You know, you got it. You're not done until you're dead and they're grown, right?
00:38:51.234 --> 00:38:55.294
You got to keep the evolution going. And that was probably a really bad comparison.
00:38:55.294 --> 00:38:59.054
But you guys get the point is that you can't just get them to a point and then
00:38:59.054 --> 00:39:00.654
abandoning our customer either.
00:39:00.874 --> 00:39:04.114
We have to, you know, Mickey, this goes right on top of what you said earlier.
00:39:04.114 --> 00:39:09.134
I want to challenge those who are doing these things to not let go or step back.
00:39:09.774 --> 00:39:12.794
Come back in a month or two later and say, how are you doing on this?
00:39:13.114 --> 00:39:16.354
How is this going? I've got a soapbox on this, so I'm going to let Sarah talk first.
00:39:16.934 --> 00:39:21.094
Okay. Go for it. Go for it. I really have a soapbox, too.
00:39:21.374 --> 00:39:26.994
So, at the end of the day, it's, I don't think people are measuring,
00:39:26.994 --> 00:39:29.134
and that's part of the problem.
00:39:29.134 --> 00:39:31.974
And there's so
00:39:31.974 --> 00:39:34.894
many things as an industry we can and
00:39:34.894 --> 00:39:38.314
should be doing differently and for a field
00:39:38.314 --> 00:39:41.314
where charting every single thing
00:39:41.314 --> 00:39:45.514
we do is a baseline requirement
00:39:45.514 --> 00:39:49.174
the irony around us not measuring
00:39:49.174 --> 00:39:56.034
and tracking and being better about these metrics frankly is a miss and when
00:39:56.034 --> 00:40:01.014
I think about the lean initiatives and the Kaizen events that I've been a part
00:40:01.014 --> 00:40:04.594
of in the time that I've worked in healthcare and all of the different things
00:40:04.594 --> 00:40:08.714
that we track and the adage of what you measure, you manage.
00:40:09.194 --> 00:40:14.034
At the end of the day, it is still a gap. And industry-wide,
00:40:14.274 --> 00:40:16.114
I think we can and should be doing better.
00:40:16.314 --> 00:40:23.194
And I think as consultants, it's something that I've tried to encourage my team
00:40:23.194 --> 00:40:28.254
to make sure that we're doing, but also it's only as good as the rigor that.
00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:32.700
An organization has around their own practices too. I'm going to stop there
00:40:32.700 --> 00:40:35.300
only because I could also go down a rabbit hole here.
00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:38.620
And you said you have a soapbox, Mickey, and I know we're coming to the end of our time.
00:40:38.780 --> 00:40:42.360
I'll make two statements. And the first is, I think you just highlighted one
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:47.340
item and it's, let's be honest, industry-wide, there's no agreed upon KPIs of
00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:48.380
what we should be measuring.
00:40:48.700 --> 00:40:52.420
And you and I have talked at length and we're trying to work on solutions for that.
00:40:54.220 --> 00:40:59.100
But there is a problem there. There's no industry standards to measure by of,
00:40:59.220 --> 00:41:02.720
hey, this is, and we can't benchmark and so on and so forth.
00:41:02.860 --> 00:41:06.700
So I think that is an us, global us problem.
00:41:07.080 --> 00:41:12.880
But then I think the biggest challenge, I've said this, anyone that knows me
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:15.480
knows I operate on a six pillar framework.
00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:18.640
So it's governance, principles, change, policy, process, tech.
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:22.260
Those things need to be aligned. And there's a reason I put governance first.
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:29.080
Nine times out of 10, 99 times out of 100, If I walk into our organization and
00:41:29.080 --> 00:41:33.640
I say who owns workforce management, they're going to point to their technical administrative team.
00:41:34.520 --> 00:41:37.700
And that's as far as that goes. And wait a minute.
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:45.160
No, HR, finance, operations, nurse, like it's workforce management talks. Who owns the outcomes?
00:41:45.520 --> 00:41:50.960
Nobody owns the outcomes. We have the biggest industry problem we have today
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:58.440
is there's lack of workforce management governance structures in our organization. No one owns it.
00:41:58.700 --> 00:42:01.420
No one's measuring it. No one's holding people accountable.
00:42:01.720 --> 00:42:06.100
No one's pushing forward with continuous improvement. And maybe no one is a
00:42:06.100 --> 00:42:09.780
strong term because I can name a couple of organizations across the country,
00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:13.740
but literally only a couple. All right.
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:18.760
Sarah, you hit it, right? We're coming up on our time here. I think we do need to wrap.
00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:23.960
So I'm going to give you both a couple seconds to think about this.
00:42:24.100 --> 00:42:25.620
You're done. Now it's time.
00:42:26.840 --> 00:42:30.580
What three things that you want people to take away from this?
00:42:31.470 --> 00:42:35.470
When it comes to better scheduling, how to leverage scheduling,
00:42:35.470 --> 00:42:38.850
all that kind of stuff, what are three things, if they heard nothing else or
00:42:38.850 --> 00:42:44.130
picked up on nothing at all during our conversation, what are the three things
00:42:44.130 --> 00:42:46.430
they should walk away with now? Let's see.
00:42:47.610 --> 00:42:52.150
What you measure, you manage. Cannot take credit for it. I didn't make it up.
00:42:52.530 --> 00:42:56.330
Scheduling is a strategic function. It is not a clerical task.
00:42:56.330 --> 00:43:01.490
And until you start treating it as such, it will never be anything but that.
00:43:02.310 --> 00:43:07.630
And continue to follow Mickey and I because come hell or high water,
00:43:07.830 --> 00:43:16.070
we are going to create some type of rigor around this lack of structure in our industry.
00:43:16.070 --> 00:43:24.130
Because we continue to come back to the fact that not having these standard KPIs,
00:43:24.310 --> 00:43:32.510
not having any type of structure is at the core of so many of these conversations.
00:43:32.630 --> 00:43:36.950
And not that he and I necessarily are going to fix it all. I don't know, maybe.
00:43:37.350 --> 00:43:44.530
But if we don't continue to talk about this as an industry, I frankly don't know how it gets better.
00:43:44.530 --> 00:43:51.150
So, I just think the fact that we continue to raise these things up and call
00:43:51.150 --> 00:43:55.390
it out as peers and colleagues and get more people discussing it,
00:43:55.730 --> 00:44:00.250
there's more and more hope that there's some level of standardization and we
00:44:00.250 --> 00:44:04.890
can start having a little bit of change that swells across healthcare,
00:44:04.890 --> 00:44:08.270
regardless of whether you're nursing, ambulatory, non-clinical.
00:44:09.530 --> 00:44:15.070
So I want to just continue that conversation because if if not us then who so
00:44:15.070 --> 00:44:18.410
those would be those would be the three that I would leave you all with today Mickey what are yours.
00:44:19.560 --> 00:44:24.240
Well, I just got off my governance thing, so I'll leave that be for the moment
00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:25.820
and just recognize that's one.
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:31.400
Obviously, we've really highlighted the idea of data-driven decision-making.
00:44:31.660 --> 00:44:38.800
When we look across all industries except for healthcare, I can't imagine calling
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:42.220
the call center and them not having someone to be able to pick up the phone.
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:45.760
The whole reason they have people, even though today's staffing world,
00:44:45.860 --> 00:44:49.380
but generally speaking, They know exactly how many people they need to be able
00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:50.940
to do it. And they make sure those people are there.
00:44:51.500 --> 00:44:56.940
And I'll say if there's a silver bullet anywhere, it's that we're becoming much
00:44:56.940 --> 00:44:59.680
more mature in our ability to forecast volumes.
00:44:59.900 --> 00:45:04.020
Are there anomalies? Yes. But generally speaking, if we can actually create
00:45:04.020 --> 00:45:08.880
schedules to forecasted volumes, to me, that's the silver bullet that sits out there right now.
00:45:09.540 --> 00:45:15.060
And I think the last third bullet that I would hit on is we have to look holistically
00:45:15.060 --> 00:45:17.420
across this. It's not just a data problem.
00:45:17.580 --> 00:45:21.180
It's not just a governance problem. It's not just a technology problem.
00:45:21.340 --> 00:45:24.160
Like the answer is yes, it's all of that.
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:28.380
We have to take a step back, look at our workflows, ask questions,
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:30.880
who's doing what, the whole gamut.
00:45:31.140 --> 00:45:38.020
I think too long we keep putting Band-Aids on the dike and, you know, putting our finger in.
00:45:38.020 --> 00:45:43.880
And this thing is, it's going to come crashing down here soon unless we just
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.180
rebuild the whole thing and address this holistically.
00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:48.220
I like it. I like it.
00:45:49.180 --> 00:45:52.760
All right, audience. So those are some great points. This is an awesome topic.
00:45:52.980 --> 00:45:54.660
I only got to about a third of the questions.
00:45:55.160 --> 00:45:57.240
So, man, we could talk about this forever.
00:45:57.940 --> 00:46:00.440
Again, we're passionate about this. We love this.
00:46:01.160 --> 00:46:04.540
We would love for you to continue to stay tuned. And, again,
00:46:04.660 --> 00:46:07.240
we have more sessions coming on this topic.
00:46:07.680 --> 00:46:10.400
Plus, we already have some published. So if this is your first one,
00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:12.540
make sure you go back and check out the others.
00:46:13.020 --> 00:46:18.640
And for now, we want to say thank you for joining. And you all have a great day. Thank you.