Postdocs

1
00:00:01,650 --> 00:00:05,229
JOHN: On past episodes of this
podcast, we’ve discussed several stages
2
00:00:05,230 --> 00:00:09,419
of the career path for academic,s
including the transition from grad
3
00:00:09,420 --> 00:00:13,879
school to faculty and decisions to
move to administrative positions.
4
00:00:14,610 --> 00:00:18,719
In this episode, we discuss the
role that a postdoc may play in
5
00:00:18,719 --> 00:00:20,939
an academic’s career trajectory.
6
00:00:26,379 --> 00:00:26,519
[MUSIC]
7
00:00:26,740 --> 00:00:31,049
Thanks for joining us for Tea for
Teaching, an informal discussion
8
00:00:31,049 --> 00:00:34,179
of innovative and effective
practices in teaching and learning.
9
00:00:34,770 --> 00:00:38,119
REBECCA: This podcast series is
hosted by John Kane, an economist…
10
00:00:38,629 --> 00:00:40,770
JOHN: …and Rebecca Mushtare,
a graphic designer…
11
00:00:41,110 --> 00:00:44,389
REBECCA: …and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work
12
00:00:44,559 --> 00:00:48,299
to make higher education more inclusive
and supportive of all learners.
13
00:00:51,369 --> 00:00:51,519
[MUSIC]
14
00:00:57,529 --> 00:01:00,639
JOHN: Our guests today are Alark
Joshi and Victoria Hallinan.
15
00:01:00,639 --> 00:01:05,629
Alark is a professor of Computer Science
at the University of San Francisco.
16
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,529
His work focuses on data visualization
literacy and strategies for
17
00:01:10,529 --> 00:01:12,719
inclusive computer science education.
18
00:01:13,220 --> 00:01:17,519
Victoria is the Program Director for
Professional Development in the Office of
19
00:01:17,529 --> 00:01:20,359
Postdoctoral Affairs at Yale University.
20
00:01:20,689 --> 00:01:25,899
Alark and Victoria are the co-authors
of Postdoc: How to Navigate Your Career
21
00:01:25,939 --> 00:01:30,769
After Grad School, which has recently
been released by Johns Hopkins Press.
22
00:01:31,220 --> 00:01:33,289
Welcome, Alark and Victoria.
23
00:01:33,839 --> 00:01:34,819
ALARK: Thank you for having us.
24
00:01:35,039 --> 00:01:36,839
We're excited to be on the podcast.
25
00:01:37,409 --> 00:01:38,420
VICTORIA: Yeah, thank you so much.
26
00:01:38,430 --> 00:01:40,239
Really looking forward to
chatting with you today.
27
00:01:40,709 --> 00:01:44,189
REBECCA: Today's teas are:… Alark,
are you drinking tea with us today?
28
00:01:44,430 --> 00:01:46,529
ALARK: Yes, Earl Gray, lifelong drinker.
29
00:01:46,790 --> 00:01:47,949
So thank you for asking.
30
00:01:48,869 --> 00:01:49,639
REBECCA: Nice.
31
00:01:49,849 --> 00:01:50,889
How about you, Victoria?
32
00:01:51,019 --> 00:01:55,790
VICTORIA: Yeah, I have a honey chai
turmeric, which has all the warming spices
33
00:01:55,790 --> 00:01:57,499
of a chai, but none of the caffeine.
34
00:01:57,500 --> 00:01:59,499
So perfect for the
afternoon for me, at least.
35
00:02:00,059 --> 00:02:06,419
JOHN: And along that theme, I have
a Medley of Mint by Twinings, one of
36
00:02:06,419 --> 00:02:12,049
their pyramid type bags of tea, because
I've already had four or five doses of
37
00:02:12,050 --> 00:02:16,220
caffeine earlier today, and I probably
want to sleep at some point tonight.
38
00:02:16,819 --> 00:02:18,159
REBECCA: On the opposing side, [LAUGHTER]
39
00:02:20,589 --> 00:02:24,770
I have a English afternoon tea,
a little boost this afternoon.
40
00:02:25,349 --> 00:02:25,699
VICTORIA: Lovely.
41
00:02:26,369 --> 00:02:30,419
JOHN: So we've invited you here today
to discuss your new book on postdocs.
42
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,919
Can you tell us a little bit about
the origin of this book project?
43
00:02:34,580 --> 00:02:34,910
ALARK: Sure.
44
00:02:34,910 --> 00:02:38,929
So most of your listeners are probably
familiar with the term “postdoc,”
45
00:02:38,929 --> 00:02:42,989
but for anyone who's not, we thought
we'd give a brief explanation.
46
00:02:43,199 --> 00:02:48,229
So the National Postdoc Association
defines a postdoc as an individual holding
47
00:02:48,229 --> 00:02:54,049
a doctoral degree who is engaged in a
temporary period of mentored research
48
00:02:54,519 --> 00:03:00,109
and/or scholarly training for the purpose
of acquiring professional skills needed
49
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,570
to pursue a career path of their choosing.
50
00:03:02,670 --> 00:03:06,040
Now that's quite a mouthful, and I
want to highlight “temporary period”
51
00:03:06,790 --> 00:03:11,630
and “acquiring skills” as keywords in
that definition because we address them
52
00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,220
in the book, and we will definitely
revisit them in this interview.
53
00:03:15,539 --> 00:03:19,090
Now let me tell you a little bit
about the origin story of this book.
54
00:03:19,430 --> 00:03:23,480
In 2023, I spent the summer
working at Yale University,
55
00:03:23,529 --> 00:03:25,099
where I connected with Victoria.
56
00:03:25,539 --> 00:03:27,120
As a former postdoc.
57
00:03:27,349 --> 00:03:31,600
I conducted a few workshops for
postdocs about how to apply for
58
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,919
faculty positions, how do you survive
and maybe even thrive, dare I say, in
59
00:03:36,919 --> 00:03:41,959
your first year [LAUGHTER] as a new
academic member of the faculty, and we
60
00:03:41,959 --> 00:03:46,080
also touched on navigating difficult
situations in your research group or
61
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,280
unit as a postdoc that they might face.
62
00:03:48,559 --> 00:03:52,830
And as both of us worked with postdocs,
we found that there seemed to be a
63
00:03:53,110 --> 00:03:58,309
hidden curriculum about transitioning
out of a postdoc into either a faculty
64
00:03:58,309 --> 00:04:03,510
position or getting that first industry
job, or maybe even transitioning
65
00:04:03,519 --> 00:04:07,789
into an academic administration or
a university administration job.
66
00:04:08,159 --> 00:04:11,790
And so we found that postdocs
felt isolated at times.
67
00:04:12,330 --> 00:04:15,419
They sometimes struggled to
navigate difficult situations.
68
00:04:15,659 --> 00:04:20,319
Many of them were international postdocs,
and so they struggled with challenges
69
00:04:20,330 --> 00:04:24,619
with their visa, even trying to find
their first housing or settling into
70
00:04:24,619 --> 00:04:26,849
a new lab or even a new country.
71
00:04:27,250 --> 00:04:31,229
And so both Victoria and I thought
we really wanted to instill this
72
00:04:31,239 --> 00:04:34,440
sense of agency among the postdocs.
73
00:04:34,449 --> 00:04:38,140
We wanted to remind them of the
importance of community, whether it's
74
00:04:38,169 --> 00:04:42,469
inside or outside their research group
at the university level within their
75
00:04:42,470 --> 00:04:46,970
communities, and also emphasize the
value of building a mentoring team
76
00:04:47,129 --> 00:04:52,409
to support them as they apply for and
transition into their next career step.
77
00:04:52,829 --> 00:04:57,769
And so, after all of that, we decided to
address these issues and write this book.
78
00:04:57,779 --> 00:05:00,349
REBECCA: A book to solve
some hidden curriculum issues
79
00:05:00,579 --> 00:05:02,449
[LAUGHTER] is always a good start.
80
00:05:03,209 --> 00:05:07,339
You started hinting at some of the ideas
and topics that are addressed in the book.
81
00:05:07,349 --> 00:05:10,389
Can you give us a quick overview
of some of those key things?
82
00:05:10,949 --> 00:05:14,039
VICTORIA: Yeah, I'm happy to supply
some spoilers for the book [LAUGHTER]
83
00:05:14,429 --> 00:05:16,399
as you go to pick up your copy.
84
00:05:16,789 --> 00:05:21,469
So we first of all really frame the
book not just around themes or topics,
85
00:05:21,759 --> 00:05:26,039
but also thinking chronologically
about your stages as a postdoc.
86
00:05:26,459 --> 00:05:29,489
So for the first chapters, we
were thinking about someone who's
87
00:05:29,519 --> 00:05:33,750
considering a postdoc or is about to
settle in and start their postdoc.
88
00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:39,299
So these two chapters focus on how can
you be productive in your new environment?
89
00:05:39,379 --> 00:05:44,080
Get your feet under you and start thinking
not only about how am I going to fulfill
90
00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,589
the responsibilities and expectations of
the role I was hired for, but also really
91
00:05:49,589 --> 00:05:53,839
reflecting on what do you personally want
to achieve here, so some self-assessment,
92
00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,269
self-reflection, and goal setting.
93
00:05:56,649 --> 00:05:59,520
And then in the second chapter,
what we want to highlight is the
94
00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,680
strong complements to focusing
on your professional development,
95
00:06:03,730 --> 00:06:07,049
which is to find your community
and your sense of belonging.
96
00:06:07,190 --> 00:06:11,960
You may be in a new institution, a new
country, and a new person who is now
97
00:06:12,010 --> 00:06:15,719
possibly in charge of much of your success
here and beyond, in the form of this
98
00:06:15,719 --> 00:06:18,690
faculty mentor you have as a postdoc.
99
00:06:19,049 --> 00:06:22,859
So we wanted to make sure that
this was front and center in
100
00:06:22,859 --> 00:06:24,619
this first part of the book.
101
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,099
So then we segue into okay,
now you're here and settled in.
102
00:06:29,500 --> 00:06:34,780
And when we were looking at different
postdoc roles, many of them address areas
103
00:06:34,820 --> 00:06:42,389
around research, which may include grant
seeking or maintaining grants and writing
104
00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:48,149
and publications, and that many postdoc
positions may or may not have teaching
105
00:06:48,149 --> 00:06:52,509
incorporated into them, but certainly,
you can seek out teaching opportunities.
106
00:06:52,889 --> 00:06:57,479
So we focus on how do you address these
many myriad of opportunities that you
107
00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,969
may have, and aim to move forward and
make progress in your own personal
108
00:07:02,970 --> 00:07:04,619
and professional development therein.
109
00:07:04,979 --> 00:07:09,039
So equally important here, however,
is what you may encounter as a postdoc
110
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,659
along the way, and which Awas starting
to allude to talking about the book
111
00:07:13,669 --> 00:07:19,219
broadly, that many postdocs may feel
isolated or may encounter challenges in
112
00:07:19,220 --> 00:07:24,069
their roles for a variety of reasons,
either personal or also depending
113
00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,099
on who they're working with, how
the research goes, how the funding
114
00:07:28,099 --> 00:07:30,319
goes, as another potential challenge.
115
00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:34,989
So we dedicate an entire chapter to
navigating difficult situations as a
116
00:07:34,989 --> 00:07:39,849
postdoc, where we offer some potential
case scenarios in the hope that someone
117
00:07:39,849 --> 00:07:44,639
reading this will then be thinking
about: “okay what if I encounter this,”
118
00:07:44,849 --> 00:07:48,469
so that they can work on addressing
the challenge or remediating the
119
00:07:48,470 --> 00:07:53,559
situation as soon as possible before
it escalates further or builds further.
120
00:07:53,849 --> 00:07:58,289
So then the second half of the book
really focuses on that next career step
121
00:07:58,329 --> 00:08:02,869
because, as Alark mentioned, a postdoc
role should be honing your skills, but
122
00:08:02,879 --> 00:08:07,189
also really thinking about not only
what you want to do next, but how to
123
00:08:07,220 --> 00:08:11,089
cultivate the kinds of experiences and
skills you need to successfully pursue
124
00:08:11,089 --> 00:08:13,189
that next job wherever it might be.
125
00:08:13,389 --> 00:08:18,349
So many PhDs start a postdoc interested
in pursuing a tenure-track faculty role
126
00:08:18,419 --> 00:08:24,320
afterwards, so we have a chapter all about
how to understand what faculty roles look
127
00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:29,179
like, their variety, and what that means
in terms of teaching, service, research
128
00:08:29,179 --> 00:08:34,489
expectations, so to help a postdoc really
understand what those options are and
129
00:08:34,489 --> 00:08:38,879
which ones might be the best ones for
them to pursue based on their interests.
130
00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:44,129
And we furthermore and became
increasingly relevant as we were
131
00:08:44,129 --> 00:08:48,539
writing the book that we really want
to encourage postdocs to consider a
132
00:08:48,539 --> 00:08:51,489
wide variety of potential career steps.
133
00:08:51,839 --> 00:08:55,230
So, as part of that, we have a
chapter dedicated to thinking about
134
00:08:55,540 --> 00:08:59,910
non-faculty roles, which might
be in industry or government and
135
00:08:59,910 --> 00:09:05,030
policy, it might be in academia, like
Alark mentioned, and maybe pursuing
136
00:09:05,030 --> 00:09:09,819
something that is more administrative
or that may have a lot of the same
137
00:09:09,990 --> 00:09:14,759
responsibilities as a faculty role, but
just outside of that tenure context.
138
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,650
So, for instance, at my institution,
I see an increasing number of research
139
00:09:18,650 --> 00:09:23,399
scientist roles, which are faculty
roles, but not that same tenure-track
140
00:09:23,429 --> 00:09:27,810
approach, and have both the benefits and
drawbacks of some of those differences.
141
00:09:28,169 --> 00:09:32,529
And then finally, the big takeaway
I think throughout this book is that
142
00:09:32,529 --> 00:09:36,319
both the postdoc and that next step
should not be this solo endeavor.
143
00:09:36,689 --> 00:09:40,329
And throughout, we really want
to emphasize engaging with
144
00:09:40,329 --> 00:09:44,720
resources and seeking out help,
and that this is not something
145
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,769
you should be trying to do alone.
146
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,969
That, as a PhD, you are frequently trying
to define yourself through difference,
147
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,189
that you have this niche area of research,
or you are the best at this, or most
148
00:09:56,189 --> 00:10:01,430
knowledgeable about that, and we think
that that can sometimes give PhDs a false
149
00:10:01,439 --> 00:10:06,569
sense of I should be able to succeed
on my own or with very little help, and
150
00:10:06,569 --> 00:10:10,849
that just because you are this amazing
scholar and teacher, we want to note
151
00:10:10,860 --> 00:10:15,239
that throughout your career, during
your postdoc role, and afterwards as
152
00:10:15,239 --> 00:10:19,930
you move on to that next role, it is
about who you go to for help building
153
00:10:19,939 --> 00:10:23,899
things like a mentoring team, but also
using the resources at your disposal.
154
00:10:24,259 --> 00:10:26,959
So the final two chapters
really emphasize that.
155
00:10:27,250 --> 00:10:31,780
The penultimate chapter talks about
how to survive and thrive in your first
156
00:10:31,780 --> 00:10:36,599
year as a faculty member, which we were
realizing similarly had a big hidden
157
00:10:36,599 --> 00:10:41,949
curriculum behind it as well, and finally
thinking about navigating the system of
158
00:10:41,959 --> 00:10:47,869
academia as an international postdoc with
a deluge of information about once more
159
00:10:47,899 --> 00:10:52,759
how to connect with resources, but also
how to think about everything from the
160
00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:57,710
American tax system, health insurance,
and also h ow acclimating to a new
161
00:10:57,739 --> 00:11:02,969
culture and expectations, especially in
professional and academic contexts, takes
162
00:11:02,979 --> 00:11:09,060
time and does mean you do need to seek
others' perspectives, engage with others
163
00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:11,000
who can help you, and ask questions.
164
00:11:11,309 --> 00:11:14,490
ALARK: One of the things I wanted
to add was that actually, while
165
00:11:14,529 --> 00:11:18,419
we both have a lot of experience
with this, we interviewed many
166
00:11:18,459 --> 00:11:22,709
different individuals for each of the
chapters, and so we actually have 20
167
00:11:22,719 --> 00:11:27,139
interviews that have been transcribed,
edited, and added to each chapter.
168
00:11:27,259 --> 00:11:30,379
So not 20 per chapter,
but 20 total in the book.
169
00:11:30,379 --> 00:11:36,150
[LAUGHTER] So I feel like that really
was one of the most fun activities
170
00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:40,309
that we did, and we really enjoyed
interviewing people who are in
171
00:11:40,309 --> 00:11:44,269
academia, industry, as well as academic
administration, and we added those
172
00:11:44,269 --> 00:11:46,069
interviews in each of these chapters.
173
00:11:46,779 --> 00:11:51,079
JOHN: When I was in grad school back
in the last century, postdocs were
174
00:11:51,099 --> 00:11:56,569
relatively rare in economics, but my
son was working on his PhD about 20
175
00:11:56,570 --> 00:12:01,929
years or so ago in economics, and he
talked about the growth of postdocs.
176
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,280
And in fact, his wife, who's
also an economist, took a postdoc
177
00:12:05,830 --> 00:12:07,879
position right after grad school.
178
00:12:08,109 --> 00:12:11,390
Have we seen growth in
postdocs in many disciplines?
179
00:12:11,809 --> 00:12:12,840
ALARK: Yeah, definitely.
180
00:12:12,859 --> 00:12:18,280
Actually, according to the National
Postdoctoral Association's 2023 poll,
181
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:24,189
there are more than 72,000 postdocs
now in the United States, and so while
182
00:12:24,189 --> 00:12:29,419
there has been an overall upward trend
in the number of postdocs being hired
183
00:12:29,459 --> 00:12:34,379
at research labs and university labs
in the United States, especially after
184
00:12:34,379 --> 00:12:39,249
World War II, we are currently seeing
a downturn in the number of postdocs
185
00:12:39,270 --> 00:12:44,000
that are being hired due to the lack of
funding at the federal and state levels,
186
00:12:44,529 --> 00:12:48,669
as well as due to the visa challenges
that international postdocs are facing.
187
00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,509
So that's just what the
current situation is.
188
00:12:51,930 --> 00:12:56,039
Additionally, while these positions were
initially supposed to be only two- to
189
00:12:56,109 --> 00:13:00,559
three-year temporary positions, like
I said earlier, they have now become
190
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:05,059
longer in duration, with some postdocs
taking up to five or even six years.
191
00:13:05,650 --> 00:13:10,889
And so these trends may be making some
PhDs reluctant to pursue a postdoc
192
00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:15,599
or even an academic role, since the
journey to a full-time, well-paying
193
00:13:15,599 --> 00:13:17,259
position is just getting longer.
194
00:13:17,979 --> 00:13:20,439
REBECCA: What fields are
postdocs most common in?
195
00:13:20,959 --> 00:13:24,319
VICTORIA: Yeah, so it's difficult to
give precise good numbers, but it's
196
00:13:24,319 --> 00:13:29,929
definitely historically been more STEM,
and especially biomedical, dominated,
197
00:13:30,149 --> 00:13:35,109
though I have been seeing some more
kind of normalization of postdocs
198
00:13:35,149 --> 00:13:37,619
in social sciences and humanities.
199
00:13:37,629 --> 00:13:40,690
So, for instance, John, thinking about
your son and your daughter-in-law, see
200
00:13:40,690 --> 00:13:46,200
an increasing number of PhDs looking
at at least and potentially pursuing
201
00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:50,909
a postdoc, even if they are outside
of biomedical fields or STEM fields.
202
00:13:51,319 --> 00:13:57,309
But there are some groups within the
United States that do regularly survey the
203
00:13:57,349 --> 00:14:01,209
populations related to their disciplines
to understand what are PhDs in their
204
00:14:01,209 --> 00:14:05,230
fields doing next, and that includes
understanding how many postdocs there are.
205
00:14:05,369 --> 00:14:09,200
So the National Institutes for Health,
for instance, puts out a regular
206
00:14:09,250 --> 00:14:14,600
report, and in 2024 they said there are
45,000 postdocs in biomedical research
207
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,269
that they were kind of keeping track
of, and in 2024, the National Science
208
00:14:19,270 --> 00:14:23,239
Foundation similarly did a survey
of graduate students and postdocs in
209
00:14:23,239 --> 00:14:27,310
science and engineering, and they were
able to find almost 70,000 postdocs,
210
00:14:27,739 --> 00:14:33,850
the majority of which were in STEM,
broadly speaking, but 14% in engineering.
211
00:14:34,330 --> 00:14:39,409
But these numbers obviously miss out
on postdocs in social sciences like
212
00:14:39,419 --> 00:14:45,220
economics, humanities, arts, and
related fields like law and management.
213
00:14:45,389 --> 00:14:48,339
So, to give you a sense, at Yale
University we have about 1,500
214
00:14:49,229 --> 00:14:54,090
postdocs, and about 900 of those
1,500 are in our School of Medicine
215
00:14:54,140 --> 00:14:56,020
or Public Health or Nursing.
216
00:14:56,060 --> 00:14:59,210
So, likely doing biomedical
research specifically.
217
00:14:59,370 --> 00:15:04,990
Another 200 or so are in STEM outside
of biomed, and then we've got 96 in
218
00:15:04,990 --> 00:15:11,879
engineering, 68 in social sciences, and
the final 90 or so are in humanities, law,
219
00:15:11,930 --> 00:15:16,699
we have two in architecture, management,
or in interdisciplinary centers.
220
00:15:16,959 --> 00:15:21,300
So postdoc position really varies in
terms of not just discipline, but what
221
00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:23,820
you may be doing as that postdoc role.
222
00:15:24,139 --> 00:15:28,360
Likely you're doing some kind of research,
but there are also postdoc positions
223
00:15:28,369 --> 00:15:33,379
focused on pedagogy, education, teaching,
and I'm not just talking about classroom
224
00:15:33,379 --> 00:15:36,770
teaching in higher education, but we,
for instance, have an art gallery that
225
00:15:36,779 --> 00:15:42,749
has postdocs who do curatorial and
educational roles around public history,
226
00:15:42,869 --> 00:15:48,319
art, and thinking about more K through
12, as well as other populations.
227
00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:52,859
JOHN: What are some of the
benefits to pursuing a postdoc
228
00:15:52,859 --> 00:15:54,519
as part of your career path?
229
00:15:55,220 --> 00:15:58,560
ALARK: Having actually done a
postdoc myself, I think pursuing
230
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,719
a postdoc is a fantastic idea.
231
00:16:01,139 --> 00:16:05,049
I think, like I said earlier,
traditionally a postdoc has been a
232
00:16:05,119 --> 00:16:09,839
time for an individual to really get
more research experience, get some
233
00:16:09,839 --> 00:16:14,119
more teaching experience, and maybe
even get some experience mentoring
234
00:16:14,239 --> 00:16:19,210
undergraduate or graduate students
after they finish their PhD, and so it
235
00:16:19,210 --> 00:16:23,339
is supposed to be a training-oriented
position to help individuals determine
236
00:16:23,379 --> 00:16:28,629
your career path going forward and
make some strides along that direction
237
00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:30,380
to successfully pursue that path.
238
00:16:30,979 --> 00:16:35,229
I think it can really be an opportunity
to develop the skills and experiences
239
00:16:35,229 --> 00:16:39,299
you need to identify that kind of
career and maybe even think about the
240
00:16:39,299 --> 00:16:42,679
kind of workplace you hope to join
when you are done with your postdoc.
241
00:16:43,180 --> 00:16:48,010
Many of us, I definitely, was obsessed
with my doctoral dissertation.
242
00:16:48,010 --> 00:16:52,389
So when I finished, I was able to
broaden my research agenda, work on
243
00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:57,089
different skills that I wanted to
acquire during my postdoc, and you can
244
00:16:57,089 --> 00:17:01,059
acquire those skills either in your
research lab or even through maybe
245
00:17:01,059 --> 00:17:06,409
leadership at the postdoc association
or other volunteering opportunities
246
00:17:06,419 --> 00:17:08,109
on campus or in your community.
247
00:17:08,399 --> 00:17:13,289
And given how the postdoc position is
supposed to be a mentored experience
248
00:17:13,289 --> 00:17:18,129
to support your next career step, it's
definitely an opportunity to explore
249
00:17:18,229 --> 00:17:22,429
alternative career paths as well as
expand your professional network.
250
00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:28,279
Like we've said earlier, many postdocs
think that a tenure-track position at a
251
00:17:28,419 --> 00:17:33,589
research 1 university is the only path
forward after your postdoc, but we talk
252
00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:37,520
about this in the book that that's one
option, but there are many different
253
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:42,730
options, even just in academia and
obviously industry and administration.
254
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,619
In this book, we specifically advise
postdocs to develop a mentoring team
255
00:17:48,089 --> 00:17:51,970
for support instead of depending
on only one or two mentors.
256
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,220
Your mentoring team may include a
mentor from, let's say, the Center for
257
00:17:56,220 --> 00:18:00,310
Teaching and L earning, who can offer
you advice on improving your teaching
258
00:18:00,310 --> 00:18:04,560
skills, especially if you have had no
experience teaching during your PhD.
259
00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:09,969
As someone who served on a hiring
committee, we definitely look at someone
260
00:18:09,969 --> 00:18:14,879
who has had some teaching experience
more favorably than someone who just has
261
00:18:15,419 --> 00:18:17,100
TA experience as a teaching assistant.
262
00:18:17,629 --> 00:18:21,320
Similarly, you might have a faculty
mentor, maybe who's not your postdoc
263
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,310
advisor, but someone either from your
department or maybe even from another
264
00:18:25,310 --> 00:18:29,399
university who can serve as a sounding
board for research discussions.
265
00:18:29,899 --> 00:18:33,899
Maybe you have a mentor from the writing
center at your university who can
266
00:18:33,899 --> 00:18:38,590
provide feedback on even things like your
research and teaching statements as you
267
00:18:38,590 --> 00:18:43,019
apply for faculty positions, and they
may even be able to give you feedback
268
00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:47,089
on your research proposals that you
might use for fellowship applications.
269
00:18:47,509 --> 00:18:51,899
The goal is to kind of add additional
mentors as your career develops and
270
00:18:51,910 --> 00:18:57,680
get that feedback that you need as you
continue to evolve and grow your career.
271
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,380
REBECCA: As a student considering a
postdoc, what are some of the things they
272
00:19:02,380 --> 00:19:06,389
should think about or take into account as
they make a decision about what to pursue?
273
00:19:06,650 --> 00:19:10,790
VICTORIA: I'd say certainly not to
pursue a postdoc purely out of inertia.
274
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,549
And what I don't mean to say by that
is that you can and should pursue a
275
00:19:15,549 --> 00:19:20,529
postdoc if you want to better figure
out what you want your next career step
276
00:19:20,529 --> 00:19:26,349
to be in terms of a full-time position
after your doctorate, but that going
277
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:30,749
in with really thinking about what
could this postdoc position do for me,
278
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:36,139
because they are frequently listed as
more traditional job advertisements,
279
00:19:36,339 --> 00:19:40,309
they may appear as something where
okay, this is basically me having a job
280
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,189
that will hold me over for a few years.
281
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:46,869
But while that mentality can certainly
help you grow certain kinds of skills,
282
00:19:47,149 --> 00:19:51,709
what we really advocate for in terms
of pursuing a postdoc role is to see
283
00:19:51,709 --> 00:19:55,760
what it can do for you, not just in
terms of fulfilling the responsibilities
284
00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,259
and expectations outlined in a job
advertisement for a postdoc role.
285
00:20:00,539 --> 00:20:03,659
And there are of course postdoc
roles that you really make your
286
00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:05,410
own and are defined that way.
287
00:20:05,699 --> 00:20:10,500
But many of them, especially in biomedical
research, for instance, you are coming
288
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:14,480
in to help with a larger project that
may already be defined, for example.
289
00:20:14,750 --> 00:20:18,580
So you really need to go in thinking,
yes, I will be able to grow these certain
290
00:20:18,580 --> 00:20:20,640
research skills and content knowledge.
291
00:20:20,849 --> 00:20:21,659
But what else?
292
00:20:21,679 --> 00:20:24,849
What else could I do if I
pursue this kind of role?
293
00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:29,609
So first and foremost, just picking up
on what Alark was already saying around
294
00:20:29,779 --> 00:20:33,359
having a mentoring team you consult with
as you think about that next career step
295
00:20:33,389 --> 00:20:37,889
as a graduate student, that they should be
able to give you some perspective around
296
00:20:37,899 --> 00:20:43,280
what a postdoc could and could not do for
you from their experiences, wherever they
297
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,150
may be in their careers and ways that they
work within your discipline or beyond.
298
00:20:48,250 --> 00:20:52,740
And aside from considering, do I
want to pursue a postdoc generally?
299
00:20:52,830 --> 00:20:58,040
As you start zooming in on which ones
and where, that really understanding
300
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,950
what are the resources available at
that institution in terms of not just
301
00:21:02,969 --> 00:21:05,979
research skills but also mentorship.
302
00:21:05,980 --> 00:21:10,229
What kinds of faculty are there,
and what kinds of not just research
303
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:14,189
do they do, but do they have
awards in teaching or mentorship?
304
00:21:14,589 --> 00:21:20,609
Is there mentorship workshops available
for postdocs, for faculty members,
305
00:21:20,930 --> 00:21:24,149
and to also think about what resources
there are for you to develop skills
306
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:29,929
you might want to explore further or
gain more mastery over, like teaching
307
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,429
and professional development skills
more broadly speaking, everything
308
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:38,389
from communication to negotiating
your first job offer or what have you.
309
00:21:39,059 --> 00:21:43,809
And of course, very important when
you are considering a postdoc role
310
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,739
is who your faculty mentor will be.
311
00:21:45,959 --> 00:21:50,759
So when you reach that interview stage,
remembering that of course this interview
312
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,369
is not just about them understanding
if you are a good fit for what they're
313
00:21:54,369 --> 00:21:59,099
looking for in a postdoc, but are
they a good fit for you in terms of,
314
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,729
once more, not just the research and
knowledge that you would gain, but
315
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:08,559
also in terms of helping you grow and
pursue that next career step, and to
316
00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:13,629
do so in a way that you feel supported
and that your postdoc role includes
317
00:22:13,659 --> 00:22:17,549
professional development, includes career
exploration, and it's not just something
318
00:22:17,549 --> 00:22:22,029
you're trying to fit in on the side or
excluding your faculty mentor in that
319
00:22:22,029 --> 00:22:26,409
process, but rather ideally as a joint
endeavor that you're all on board with.
320
00:22:26,809 --> 00:22:30,989
So, understanding are your expectations
for the role and support you need
321
00:22:31,070 --> 00:22:36,939
aligned, and that beyond that, really
even at the interview stage, asking
322
00:22:36,979 --> 00:22:39,310
concrete questions about resources.
323
00:22:39,610 --> 00:22:42,889
So this is everything from you
can ask about moving expenses.
324
00:22:42,889 --> 00:22:46,649
Is that something that can be
afforded as part of hiring you?
325
00:22:46,939 --> 00:22:51,190
But also, will you have support for
teaching if you want to engage with it,
326
00:22:51,250 --> 00:22:53,519
if it's not part of that postdoc role?
327
00:22:53,790 --> 00:22:56,919
Will you be able to attend
conferences, have opportunities
328
00:22:56,919 --> 00:22:58,769
to manage your own project.
329
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:04,059
Really asking specific questions about
what you can do and what you would have
330
00:23:04,059 --> 00:23:09,550
support for, to get a sense of what will
this faculty member be like as a mentor.
331
00:23:10,069 --> 00:23:14,719
And finally, as part of that, we
really emphasize that it's important
332
00:23:14,729 --> 00:23:18,730
before you start this role, and once
more, ideally at the interview stage,
333
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,659
to identify the culture of this unit
you're joining, whether it's a lab
334
00:23:23,669 --> 00:23:25,829
or a department, a research group.
335
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,469
Are there any red flags?
336
00:23:27,899 --> 00:23:32,300
And one of the ways that we think
you can help understand this is to
337
00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:38,299
talk to postdocs who are alumni from
that unit and/or current postdocs.
338
00:23:38,619 --> 00:23:42,600
Sometimes research groups might
have graduate students or postdocs
339
00:23:42,629 --> 00:23:46,130
or other folks who are engaged
in the research together that you
340
00:23:46,130 --> 00:23:47,919
could also similarly reach out to.
341
00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:52,050
And I would even in an interview ask
the faculty mentor, "Hey, what kinds
342
00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:57,669
of roles have your postdocs moved on
to? Can I talk to some of them?” Though
343
00:23:57,670 --> 00:24:01,650
certainly searching on LinkedIn or
elsewhere can also yield some results too.
344
00:24:01,740 --> 00:24:05,309
But seeing how your faculty mentor
responds to that kind of question
345
00:24:05,309 --> 00:24:07,869
might give you a good clue of
what kind of mentor they'll be.
346
00:24:07,879 --> 00:24:11,939
If they're excited and say, "Oh yes,
so and so went on and did this, and
347
00:24:11,939 --> 00:24:15,280
this person went over here,” that also
gives you some good information and
348
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,569
also gives you a sense of the kinds of
support you might receive as a postdoc.
349
00:24:19,410 --> 00:24:22,709
And finally, of course, thinking
before pursuing a postdoc about:
350
00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:25,469
Do you have other factors and
priorities to keep in mind?
351
00:24:25,790 --> 00:24:29,819
Do you need to be in a specific
geographic location or cost of living?
352
00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:33,610
Do you have particular family
needs, either in terms of caring for
353
00:24:33,610 --> 00:24:37,249
family you currently have, or many
postdocs, depending on when they
354
00:24:37,250 --> 00:24:40,729
started their PhD, might be at a
stage where they may be considering
355
00:24:40,730 --> 00:24:42,439
starting a family, for instance.
356
00:24:42,770 --> 00:24:46,540
So, understanding will this
postdoc role be supportive of that?
357
00:24:46,540 --> 00:24:52,089
A nd once more, what resources are
available for having a family, for leave,
358
00:24:52,449 --> 00:24:56,820
and for other things at your institution
can really help you zoom in on which
359
00:24:56,820 --> 00:25:00,889
options are best, but also set yourself
up for success in that postdoc role.
360
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,029
JOHN: So far, the discussion has
mostly been about the benefits and the
361
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,569
factors that individuals considering
going for a postdoc should take into
362
00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:14,030
account, but from the other side of
the transaction, what are the benefits
363
00:25:14,030 --> 00:25:19,260
of a postdoc to the host institution
considering providing postdoc positions.
364
00:25:19,779 --> 00:25:23,549
VICTORIA: Honestly, some institutions may
see postdocs simply as good, cheap labor.
365
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:24,949
That they are experts.
366
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,739
They have highly refined skills.
367
00:25:26,779 --> 00:25:29,879
They can do a lot to
advance a research agenda.
368
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:34,299
So it is important for someone
thinking about a postdoc as a role for
369
00:25:34,299 --> 00:25:39,239
themselves to consider how they would
get the most out of this opportunity.
370
00:25:39,540 --> 00:25:44,449
Ideally, an institution is seeing what
I see when I think about postdocs – that
371
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:49,049
they are able to advance research
in such a wonderful way that they
372
00:25:49,049 --> 00:25:51,210
are making us better every day.
373
00:25:51,479 --> 00:25:56,339
That they also promote excellent
teaching, as well as mentoring young
374
00:25:56,349 --> 00:26:01,069
scholars, and I think about mentoring
and teaching as a two-way endeavor.
375
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,919
So even if this postdoc position does
not entail teaching, in your interaction
376
00:26:05,919 --> 00:26:11,189
as a postdoc with those you mentor and
helping them think about themselves as
377
00:26:11,199 --> 00:26:15,979
future mentors and teachers, as well as
your own faculty member, that they, in
378
00:26:15,989 --> 00:26:21,069
working with you and seeing your approach
to mentorship, teaching, training others,
379
00:26:21,419 --> 00:26:25,470
are no doubt hopefully consciously,
but also subconsciously learning
380
00:26:25,470 --> 00:26:28,999
from you about different approaches,
perspectives, and styles there.
381
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:34,260
And finally, overall, just what postdocs
contribute to an institution's community.
382
00:26:34,369 --> 00:26:38,539
We have an incredibly vibrant postdoc
population at Yale University, and
383
00:26:38,899 --> 00:26:44,450
they are able to not just diversify
our perspectives on what it means to do
384
00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:50,050
research, teaching, and learning, but
really make our community so much more
385
00:26:50,139 --> 00:26:55,419
thoughtful, strategic, and to really be
thinking about okay, who is included here?
386
00:26:55,429 --> 00:26:57,180
How are we moving things forward?
387
00:26:57,180 --> 00:27:01,339
but doing so in a supportive
way and thinking about how
388
00:27:01,340 --> 00:27:02,779
to move everyone forward.
389
00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:07,489
REBECCA: This conversation is leading
me to wonder a little bit about what the
390
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:12,299
interview process for a postdoc looks
like in comparison to a faculty position
391
00:27:12,709 --> 00:27:15,789
for those that might be working with
postdocs or might be considering postdocs
392
00:27:15,789 --> 00:27:17,009
but have no idea what that looks like.
393
00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:20,430
VICTORIA: Yeah, I think we both probably
have a little perspective on this.
394
00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:26,210
I can share from my side that the
interview process can diverge wildly
395
00:27:26,239 --> 00:27:30,620
depending on the nature of the
funding for the postdoc role, the
396
00:27:30,620 --> 00:27:33,130
faculty member, and the discipline.
397
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:37,769
So, for instance, you might be able
to apply to a postdoc role that, as
398
00:27:37,770 --> 00:27:41,970
I mentioned earlier, looks like a
traditional job advertisement, asks
399
00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:47,309
for some basics around curriculum
vitae, maybe a cover letter, but then
400
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,509
has maybe an interview before hiring.
401
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,039
There are also postdoc roles that,
depending on their funding and how they
402
00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:00,869
function have more of a larger amount
of materials required along the lines
403
00:28:00,909 --> 00:28:04,979
of a faculty role, and especially if
it involves teaching, for instance,
404
00:28:04,989 --> 00:28:09,639
maybe there will be a component of the
interview that entails a teaching demo,
405
00:28:09,639 --> 00:28:13,899
or certainly talking about your teaching
and everything in between, really.
406
00:28:13,899 --> 00:28:17,119
And the final thing I'll say
before, very curious to hear Alark's
407
00:28:17,150 --> 00:28:22,299
perspective on this, is finding a
postdoc role is not always looking
408
00:28:22,299 --> 00:28:26,879
up and finding a job advertisement
at an institution or that someone's
409
00:28:26,879 --> 00:28:29,799
posted on LinkedIn or in other venues.
410
00:28:30,189 --> 00:28:35,609
But a lot of times we encourage graduate
students, particularly if they are in
411
00:28:35,610 --> 00:28:40,379
certain disciplines, to actually go to
an institution's website, look up their
412
00:28:40,379 --> 00:28:44,889
discipline, and find faculty who are
doing research they are interested in,
413
00:28:44,919 --> 00:28:49,349
and cold emailing them or asking your
mentoring team to help connect you if they
414
00:28:49,349 --> 00:28:52,789
know this person, introducing yourself
and saying, "I would love to join your
415
00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:57,520
research group. Here's what I'm doing.
Would you be able to hire me in a postdoc
416
00:28:57,529 --> 00:29:02,409
role?” And that is very different than
a tenure-track faculty role application
417
00:29:02,410 --> 00:29:07,129
process in the U.S. for instance, or
maybe any kind of application process
418
00:29:07,139 --> 00:29:09,789
someone who's a PhD has done before.
419
00:29:09,789 --> 00:29:13,689
So something that having that
mentoring team to talk to, saying
420
00:29:13,699 --> 00:29:15,449
that I'm interested in a postdoc role?
421
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:17,629
What does that look
like in our discipline?
422
00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:22,589
And sometimes it is you find the
job ad, but sometimes it is you cold
423
00:29:22,589 --> 00:29:26,929
email someone and hope that they are
willing to respond to that email.
424
00:29:27,330 --> 00:29:30,119
But Alark, I'm curious what you think
here or what you've experienced.
425
00:29:30,649 --> 00:29:35,379
ALARK: Yeah, I mean my experience
was very similar in some ways, where
426
00:29:35,509 --> 00:29:41,670
I had to submit a cover letter and
a CV just by email to the professor
427
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,830
who had the postdoc position.
428
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:50,129
But then once we had a phone conversation,
then I traveled up to New Haven, and
429
00:29:50,130 --> 00:29:52,750
then I had my research presentation.
430
00:29:52,750 --> 00:29:55,459
So they had me give a research
presentation to a bigger research
431
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:59,329
group, which had four professors,
all of their PhD students and
432
00:29:59,329 --> 00:30:03,020
postdocs, and so there was about an
hour's presentation with some Q&A.
433
00:30:04,219 --> 00:30:08,750
That was followed by meeting with
individual members of the specific
434
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:10,169
research group that I was joining.
435
00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:14,279
So there were about three to four
meetings with like students and postdocs,
436
00:30:14,770 --> 00:30:18,890
and then one meeting with the actual
advisor who was going to hire me.
437
00:30:19,139 --> 00:30:23,939
This was done by lunchtime, and then
we all went out to lunch as a group.
438
00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:27,960
We hung out, talked about other things
other than just research topics.
439
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,169
And by the end of lunch, I
think that was the end of it.
440
00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:35,610
So it was like a, I guess, a half
faculty interview kind of a thing
441
00:30:35,619 --> 00:30:38,689
where we didn't really go all the
way in terms of submitting teaching
442
00:30:38,689 --> 00:30:42,310
statements and research statements, but
there was still an opportunity to get
443
00:30:42,329 --> 00:30:46,229
to know other people in the lab other
than just the primary investigator.
444
00:30:46,659 --> 00:30:50,480
JOHN: So postdocs are in a somewhat
unique position in the university where
445
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,670
they're somewhere between being a student
and a full-time member of the community.
446
00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:59,159
What are some of the challenges
that this might cause for people
447
00:30:59,159 --> 00:31:00,409
who are working as a postdoc?
448
00:31:01,109 --> 00:31:04,199
ALARK: Postdocs face a variety of
different challenges, and one of
449
00:31:04,239 --> 00:31:10,419
those is lacking a sense of belonging
due to the fact that even if you are
450
00:31:10,739 --> 00:31:14,940
a local student, you might just be
focused on doing research in your lab,
451
00:31:14,949 --> 00:31:20,939
maybe even by yourself for many hours
a day, and that can be very draining
452
00:31:20,949 --> 00:31:24,029
and frustrating sometimes, because
as we all know, research doesn't
453
00:31:24,059 --> 00:31:25,509
always work out the way we want.
454
00:31:25,860 --> 00:31:29,310
There are things like lack
of institutional support.
455
00:31:29,639 --> 00:31:33,350
You mentioned this, John, that you are
neither a student, you are neither a
456
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,939
faculty member or a permanent staff
member, so you are kind of in between.
457
00:31:38,149 --> 00:31:42,029
And different units at the university
level don't really know how to
458
00:31:42,059 --> 00:31:45,389
handle postdocs, and so sometimes
they can fall through the gaps.
459
00:31:45,739 --> 00:31:49,629
There's also a bit of a lack of
understanding of their particular
460
00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:52,630
professional needs because
of this in-between status.
461
00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:56,389
Additionally, the pay and
benefits can be a lot lower.
462
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:58,490
That can be frustrating for postdocs.
463
00:31:59,419 --> 00:32:04,309
We've talked a little bit about how
majority of the postdocs are international
464
00:32:04,879 --> 00:32:09,479
and they face challenges around adjusting
to a new lab institution, maybe even a
465
00:32:09,479 --> 00:32:14,469
new country, navigating the variety of
different visa challenges, and even just
466
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:18,159
identifying different cultural norms
that you might not be familiar with
467
00:32:18,179 --> 00:32:20,079
when you go to a completely new country.
468
00:32:20,649 --> 00:32:24,919
On top of that, a lot of postdocs
success and satisfaction depends
469
00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:27,050
on their faculty mentors.
470
00:32:27,089 --> 00:32:31,799
Like that one-on-one meeting that might
happen once a week or once every two
471
00:32:31,809 --> 00:32:36,889
weeks, and you start thinking like,
“oh, this is going really badly” if that
472
00:32:36,889 --> 00:32:41,070
relationship isn't going well, and so you
kind of have all your eggs in one basket.
473
00:32:41,740 --> 00:32:45,290
Another major challenge is actually
related to transitioning into
474
00:32:45,290 --> 00:32:49,170
a role where you really need to
advocate for yourself and promote
475
00:32:49,170 --> 00:32:51,010
yourself for the very first time.
476
00:32:51,340 --> 00:32:55,060
You haven't done this before, so if you
compare that with grad school, postdocs
477
00:32:56,139 --> 00:33:01,179
often have to be much more intentional
about finding peers, about building
478
00:33:01,180 --> 00:33:05,169
networks, and even just seeking out
professional development opportunities.
479
00:33:05,639 --> 00:33:10,899
You might think that “okay, I really need
to get better at data analysis, and I need
480
00:33:10,930 --> 00:33:16,459
to find resources on campus that offer
these lessons or workshops,” and so kind
481
00:33:16,459 --> 00:33:18,409
of seek out these opportunities yourself.
482
00:33:18,889 --> 00:33:21,659
These things don't just come to
you as they may have when you are
483
00:33:21,759 --> 00:33:23,329
an undergrad or a grad student.
484
00:33:23,849 --> 00:33:27,840
REBECCA: One of the things that you both
mentioned is the potential for a postdoc
485
00:33:27,889 --> 00:33:30,530
to include teaching as part of that work.
486
00:33:30,530 --> 00:33:34,619
Can you talk a little bit about
what factors one might consider
487
00:33:34,699 --> 00:33:37,829
and whether or not to add teaching
as part of that experience.
488
00:33:38,509 --> 00:33:38,709
VICTORIA: Yeah.
489
00:33:38,709 --> 00:33:43,769
So if if teaching is not included in
your postdoc itself, and you are at all
490
00:33:43,769 --> 00:33:48,649
interested in teaching as part of your
next career step, whether you maybe are
491
00:33:48,659 --> 00:33:54,399
set on a faculty role or if you're at a
stage where you're just trying to figure
492
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,840
out is teaching maybe for me, and once
more, thinking diversely there, faculty
493
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:05,479
role in higher ed versus also considering
other roles in academia that may entail
494
00:34:05,479 --> 00:34:11,269
teaching, thinking about the K through 12
space, or once more really understanding,
495
00:34:11,389 --> 00:34:15,519
do I want this as part of my job,
seeking out teaching opportunities while
496
00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:17,379
you're a postdoc can be really helpful.
497
00:34:17,470 --> 00:34:23,009
And if you do realize as part of exploring
teaching that this is something you want
498
00:34:23,009 --> 00:34:27,039
as part of or the foundation of your
next role, it can obviously give you
499
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,019
the edge when you're applying for a job
if you have some teaching experience.
500
00:34:31,229 --> 00:34:33,739
But the challenge here is how
do you fit this in if it's
501
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:35,589
not part of your postdoc role.
502
00:34:35,860 --> 00:34:39,389
So there's a few different ways
that we talk about this in the book.
503
00:34:39,419 --> 00:34:43,069
You could, for instance,
teach at the institution your
504
00:34:43,070 --> 00:34:45,209
postdoc role is hosted at.
505
00:34:45,820 --> 00:34:50,449
And first of all, I should add the
caveat, as a postdoc office administrator
506
00:34:50,449 --> 00:34:55,740
that always double check that you
can teach if you have a visa or if
507
00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:59,549
you are funded a particular way that
may restrict whether or not you can
508
00:34:59,580 --> 00:35:05,169
teach, or there may be a process to
help you teach at the institution
509
00:35:05,169 --> 00:35:07,520
that is also hosting your postdoc.
510
00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:12,639
But if you are trying to find something
at your institution, similarly thinking
511
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:17,109
creatively here, talk to the chair
of the department of your discipline,
512
00:35:17,389 --> 00:35:21,560
or find out if there's something like
an undergraduate director to talk
513
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,720
to about teaching and opportunities.
514
00:35:23,869 --> 00:35:28,900
But you may also need to explore
outside of the department that
515
00:35:28,919 --> 00:35:30,199
your discipline is housed in.
516
00:35:30,209 --> 00:35:33,689
So you might need to look at
interdisciplinary centers, for instance,
517
00:35:33,929 --> 00:35:39,350
or an institution may have a first-year
seminar program for incoming first-year
518
00:35:39,350 --> 00:35:42,790
students, where they're looking for people
from all kinds of different disciplines.
519
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:47,850
But that might not pop up if you just look
to see are there teaching opportunities
520
00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:49,769
in biology at my institution.
521
00:35:49,969 --> 00:35:54,610
And some institutions may even have
teaching opportunities in the summer,
522
00:35:54,650 --> 00:36:00,190
or may have opportunities within the
town or city that the institution's in.
523
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,980
I'm thinking about programs like Pathways
to STEM or Pathways to Humanities,
524
00:36:05,250 --> 00:36:09,560
which are again opportunities that
might entail teaching an entire course.
525
00:36:09,730 --> 00:36:14,050
But also, the final thing we talk about
in terms of teaching opportunities is
526
00:36:14,399 --> 00:36:19,459
if you don't have the time or don't
have the ability to teach a full-fledged
527
00:36:19,469 --> 00:36:23,769
course, let's say, that there's different
scales of teaching opportunities, so
528
00:36:23,779 --> 00:36:29,940
that you can find opportunities to teach
once more at other institutions or as
529
00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:34,889
an adjunct doing a full course, but you
can also find opportunities to guest
530
00:36:34,889 --> 00:36:37,409
lecture at your institution or elsewhere.
531
00:36:37,549 --> 00:36:41,519
Now that we all, for better or for worse,
are fully functional on Zoom, it's easier
532
00:36:41,519 --> 00:36:46,219
to seek out guest lecturing opportunities
as well and get experience there.
533
00:36:46,549 --> 00:36:50,980
You could lead seminars for your
department, either based on your
534
00:36:50,980 --> 00:36:54,809
research or based on professional
development skills, and that many
535
00:36:54,809 --> 00:36:59,579
institutions will also have a group
called a postdoc association, which I
536
00:36:59,580 --> 00:37:01,019
should have mentioned much much sooner.
537
00:37:01,019 --> 00:37:04,860
But this is usually a group
that is run for and by postdocs.
538
00:37:05,059 --> 00:37:10,319
It's a wonderful place to again find that
sense of community and belonging Alark was
539
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:16,369
mentioning to stem senses of isolation,
have some place to vent potential
540
00:37:16,369 --> 00:37:21,139
frustrations, but also opportunities for
professional development, either taking
541
00:37:21,139 --> 00:37:26,689
on a leadership role or running something
like professional development sessions,
542
00:37:26,989 --> 00:37:31,589
or even opportunities for postdocs to
talk about their research or practice
543
00:37:31,610 --> 00:37:35,739
teaching in such a way that they now have
the experience, and also something to
544
00:37:35,739 --> 00:37:40,709
talk about when they apply for a teaching
role and are asked to provide a teaching
545
00:37:40,709 --> 00:37:45,169
statement or to talk about their approach,
their pedagogy, and what have you.
546
00:37:45,539 --> 00:37:50,489
And finally, wanting to very much
highlight, we recommend all postdocs,
547
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:53,360
whether or not you are seriously
thinking about teaching as part of
548
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,539
your career, to engage with your
center for teaching and learning.
549
00:37:56,849 --> 00:38:02,009
This can be an opportunity to grow
your pedagogical approach, but also to
550
00:38:02,009 --> 00:38:05,680
recognize where you're using teaching
and may not even be realizing it.
551
00:38:06,069 --> 00:38:09,700
So you may have the opportunity to mentor
undergraduate students in your postdoc
552
00:38:09,739 --> 00:38:14,559
role, and this you can use when you put
together your teaching statement if you're
553
00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:19,459
applying to a faculty role, for instance,
talking about how you approached this,
554
00:38:19,699 --> 00:38:25,910
how you were able to, like in a classroom,
bring your expectations, your values, and
555
00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:30,620
then engage with this student or students
to understand where they were coming from,
556
00:38:30,869 --> 00:38:35,059
their lived and learned experiences, and
by the end of your mentoring relationship,
557
00:38:35,129 --> 00:38:38,780
that they've moved forward in their
learning, their skills development, and
558
00:38:38,780 --> 00:38:42,000
their understanding of your discipline
and their desire to potentially
559
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,530
pursue it in their undergraduate
or graduate studies and beyond.
560
00:38:46,170 --> 00:38:49,079
JOHN: We always end with
the question, "What's next?
561
00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:50,529
So, what's next for you?
562
00:38:50,959 --> 00:38:55,069
ALARK: So, inspired by our podcast and
others, we are actually starting a limited
563
00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:58,140
series podcast called Postdoc Matters.
564
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,160
The goal of the podcast is to offer
advice by interviewing individuals
565
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,359
from industry, academia, as well as
academic administration who have worked
566
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,729
as postdocs and navigated some of the
issues that we have discussed in the book.
567
00:39:13,299 --> 00:39:17,600
We have already interviewed a few
individuals from the humanities who
568
00:39:17,610 --> 00:39:21,830
highlight how a postdoc can help
you expand your skills and help you
569
00:39:21,889 --> 00:39:23,619
get your next full-time position.
570
00:39:24,279 --> 00:39:28,000
We've interviewed a couple of industry
professionals who have transitioned
571
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,509
from academia into industry and
who offer advice on how postdocs
572
00:39:32,899 --> 00:39:37,599
can showcase their skills to land
a job in industry, and many more.
573
00:39:38,070 --> 00:39:41,719
Each interview is aligned with one
or more chapters in the book, and
574
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:44,409
we address that in each episode
as we chat with our guests.
575
00:39:44,669 --> 00:39:45,829
So we are very excited.
576
00:39:46,969 --> 00:39:49,509
We'll slowly release some of these
episodes and see where it goes.
577
00:39:50,059 --> 00:39:50,569
JOHN: Excellent.
578
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,399
ALARK: Hopefully, it'll be out soon.
579
00:39:53,930 --> 00:39:57,429
We are just banking a few episodes
because we know once the semester
580
00:39:57,429 --> 00:39:58,790
starts, it's going to be nuts.
581
00:39:59,180 --> 00:40:03,059
And so we just wanted to have about
five to seven episodes, and then
582
00:40:03,070 --> 00:40:04,939
we’ll release them one at a time.
583
00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:07,480
JOHN: And Victoria, what's next for you?
584
00:40:07,970 --> 00:40:10,339
VICTORIA: Mostly just getting
through the next few weeks, and the
585
00:40:10,339 --> 00:40:11,830
book coming out is my what's next.
586
00:40:12,970 --> 00:40:13,790
JOHN: Well, thank you.
587
00:40:14,169 --> 00:40:15,420
It's been great talking to you.
588
00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:18,369
And this is an area that we haven't
really talked about on the podcast
589
00:40:18,379 --> 00:40:22,269
before, and it is an area that people
should consider as they're moving
590
00:40:22,269 --> 00:40:23,769
through their educational path.
591
00:40:24,259 --> 00:40:26,219
ALARK: Thank you very
much, John and Rebecca.
592
00:40:26,449 --> 00:40:29,390
This feels surreal to me because
I listen to your podcast every
593
00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:33,209
week, and so to be on one of these
episodes is a dream come true.
594
00:40:33,289 --> 00:40:33,799
Thank you.
595
00:40:33,799 --> 00:40:34,939
[LAUGHTER]
596
00:40:34,939 --> 00:40:38,719
VICTORIA: Yeah, I was telling all my
CTL colleagues… I used to work at the
597
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,979
Poorvu Center for Teaching and Learning
at Yale, and they're incredibly jealous.
598
00:40:42,869 --> 00:40:43,019
[LAUGHTER]
599
00:40:51,799 --> 00:40:51,859
[MUSIC]
600
00:40:54,270 --> 00:40:57,019
JOHN: If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe and
601
00:40:57,020 --> 00:41:01,080
leave a review on Apple Podcasts
or your favorite podcast service.
602
00:41:01,610 --> 00:41:06,159
To continue the conversation, join us
on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
603
00:41:07,110 --> 00:41:09,709
REBECCA: You can find show
notes, transcripts and other
604
00:41:09,709 --> 00:41:12,049
materials on teaforteaching.com.
605
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,029
Music by Michael Gary Brewer.
606
00:41:15,029 --> 00:41:19,029
[MUSIC]