Classroom Mindscapes

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JOHN: Neurodivergent students bring
varied strengths, needs, and ways
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of thinking to our classrooms.
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In this episode, we explore teaching
strategies that reduce access
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friction, increase tolerance for
error, and create more inclusive
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learning experiences for everyone.
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[MUSIC]
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Thanks for joining us for Tea for
Teaching, an informal discussion
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of innovative and effective
practices in teaching and learning.
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REBECCA: This podcast series is
hosted by John Kane, an economist…
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JOHN: …and Rebecca Mushtare,
a graphic designer…
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REBECCA: …and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work
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to make higher education more inclusive
and supportive of all learners.
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[MUSIC]
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Our guest today is Sarah Silverman.
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Sarah is an educator and
faculty developer focusing on
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neurodiversity, disability studies,
and inclusive instructional design.
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She currently teaches disability
studies at multiple institutions.
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Sarah is the author of Classroom
Mindscapes: An Introduction to
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Neurodiversity for Educators, which
will be released later this month
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as part of the Teaching, Engaging,
and Thriving in Higher Ed series at
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the University of Oklahoma Press.
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Welcome, Sarah.
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SARAH: Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm really happy to be here.
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JOHN: We're really happy
to finally have you on.
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I follow you on LinkedIn and other
places, so it's nice to actually
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have a chance to talk to you.
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SARAH: Yeah, absolutely.
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JOHN: Today's teas are:… Sarah,
are you drinking any tea with us?
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SARAH: So, I'm not literally
drinking tea at the moment, but I've
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had multiple cups of tea over the
past 12 to 18 hours or something.
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I have to admit I'm more of a
coffee person, but I would say it's
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more like a 60-40 split of like
total consumption towards coffee.
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REBECCA: All right.
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Well, I like that you play on both teams.
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SARAH: Yeah, I do play on both teams,
[LAUGHTER] and I have to give a
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shout out to my mom and grandmother
who are both big tea fans as well.
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So if they happen to listen to this,
that's where I got my love of tea from.
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REBECCA: Wonderful.
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My grandmother was a
big tea drinker as well.
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JOHN: Mine too.
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Whenever my brother and I were ill
as a child, we always had tea we
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were supposed to drink to cure is
somehow… and eventually it worked.
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SARAH: Yeah, I think
there's something to that.
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[LAUGHTER]
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REBECCA: Tea is actually one
of the very few things that
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I don't like when I'm sick.
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I only like it when I'm very well.
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I have English breakfast today, John.
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JOHN: And I have ginger
peach green tea today.
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REBECCA: Nice.
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So, Sarah, we invited you here today
to discuss Classroom Mindscapes.
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Can you talk a little bit about
how this book project came about?
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SARAH: Sure.
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So this book project came about, I would
say, because of a number of intersecting
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and kind of colliding interests of mine.
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So, it helps to say a little bit about
my own background, which is that I got
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my PhD in a STEM field, in biology.
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It was actually the field of entomology,
which is the study of insects.
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So that's a fun fact about me.
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But while I was doing that, I worked at
the Teaching and Learning Center that
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was on the UC Davis campus, the Center
for Educational Effectiveness, and I
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eventually went into that field and worked
at a couple of similar places after that.
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So I became someone who focuses on
teaching and faculty development, and
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I also had another area of interest,
which is disability studies, which
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I was teaching in and researching,
and also connecting to some of my own
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life experiences with neurodiversity.
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And one of the things I started noticing
a couple of years ago is that there's
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a huge amount of interest in the
subject of neurodiversity in higher
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education, but not a lot of specific
knowledge of the history and context.
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And I had taught mostly undergrad
classes for a while, one part of them was
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exploring the history of neurodiversity
and what this concept meant, and where
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it came from, and what its relevance is
in the larger disability conversation.
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And I began to think to myself, I think
that college teachers would really
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get a lot out of having a concise
overview of this and having some
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ideas about how they might apply this
knowledge to their classroom teaching.
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So yeah, I think that's a little
bit about how it came about.
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REBECCA: That's a great story
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JOHN: For faculty who are somewhat new
to this topic, because as you mentioned,
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there hasn't been much discussion of
this in higher ed until really recently.
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How do you define neurodiversity,
and how does it differ from
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the concept of neurodivergence?
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SARAH: Yes, sure.
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I'd be happy to talk about that.
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I guess this is a good opening
note for the whole conversation.
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Since this is kind of an area of special
interest of mine, I have a number of
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details in the book that people might
be interested in, and I'll give good
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overviews during our conversation, and
if you come away from this saying I
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really want to know more about that,
then yeah, definitely check out my book.
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It has even more detail, more
references, different things like that.
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So anyway, neurodiversity, we could
say, describes the fact of cognitive
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variation in the human population.
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So it's a form of variation, and
we have many types of diversity or
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variation in the human population.
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So all three of us
certainly vary in height.
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We probably have many other things
that we vary in, and similarly,
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cognition varies between all people.
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And I'll go with neurodivergence next.
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Neurodivergence is a concept that
came out of the autistic self-advocacy
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community, and then became broader, which
describes people whose cognition does
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not align with societal norms or what's
typically understood as normal cognition
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in society, and sometimes also normal
behavior or communication in society.
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So, someone who's neurodivergent may
have one or more traits that, in a
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given context, distinguish them as
different from the majority of people.
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And like I said, this is a concept that
originally came out of autistic people's
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self-advocacy, and neurodiversity
also came out of that movement.
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One thing that people often ask me
is: “Is neurodiversity real such a
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neutral idea?” like okay, you know,
humans all vary in cognition, or is it
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more of a positive spin on this idea?
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And I think both are true in a sense.
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It can be used in a very neutral
way, just the fact of variation.
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But the context it comes out of is
specific enough to give it a slightly
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different valence, which is that when
autistic people first came together
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in these communities, primarily online
in the mid- to late-1990s, autism was
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one of the most highly stigmatized
diagnoses out there, and this community
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was searching for a way to think about
themselves, to talk about themselves
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that was not entirely based on deficit
and considered more strongly what
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strengths autistic people may have,
how they could lead good lives with
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appropriate support and acceptance,
and so neurodiversity did in some ways
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emerge in that context as a positive
spin on human cognitive variation.
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REBECCA: So that seems like a nice
segue into one of the things that we
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often hear are some misconceptions
about neurodivergent students.
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Can you talk a little bit about what
some of those misconceptions might be?
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SARAH: Sure.
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Yeah, I can tell you some of
the ones that I think are the
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most common or the most notable.
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First of all, you may have noticed
in my previous definition that I
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didn't say neurodivergent people
have one of these five diagnosed
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disabilities, or something like that.
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So neurodivergence is a concept
that exists somewhat in contrast to,
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but at least alongside, the medical
diagnostic model of cognitive variation.
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So it's true that a lot of faculty may
meet, or teach, or work with students who
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have a specific diagnosis, such as autism
or ADHD, learning disability, or dyslexia,
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but not all neurodivergent students
are going to have such a diagnosis, or
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even be like theoretically eligible for
one if they were to pursue a process.
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So neurodivergence is much more of
a kind of a sociological contextual
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concept than a medical one, and so it
is entirely possible that faculty may
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work with neurodivergent students who
don't really have any sort of medical
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diagnosis, and because of that, they
also may not be always eligible or
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interested in academic accommodation.
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So I think that's a very common
understanding or maybe misunderstanding
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that everyone who's neurodivergent will
have or will require accommodation.
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I think alongside that, it's
a pretty common misconception
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that all neurodivergent students
have academic difficulties.
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That's not absolutely true.
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It may be more true for some groups of
neurodivergent students than others, but
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a lot of people who are neurodivergent who
are in college now, they may have either
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developed really good coping mechanisms
with great support during their K to
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12 journey, their neurodivergence also
may not manifest in ways that make the
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academic environment difficult for them.
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It may be that they are able to exist
well within an academic environment,
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maybe they experience more social
challenges or barriers than academic ones.
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So not all neurodivergent
students require accommodations
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or will struggle academically.
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Another really common assumption
that sometimes people make is that
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neurodivergent students either cannot
work in groups or won't be very successful
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in groups, and I think that sometimes
becomes a bit of a self-reinforcing
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loop where faculty will kind of make
this assumption and then not design
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or offer group activities in a way
that is going to be inclusive of a
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lot of different participants, and
then sometimes that results in people
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kind of asking, "Can I be exempted?
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Can I use my accommodations to not
participate in this group assignment?”
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And so that's one thing that I would
really love to see people rethink,
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which is this misconception that
neurodivergent students have difficulty
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working with other people as a general
rule, and that's kind of absolute.
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I think that that's a
pretty bad misconception.
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Lastly, I think one misconception
that I hear a lot as well is that if
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somebody is noticeably neurodivergent,
then that automatically requires some
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sort of response from the instructor.
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One of the most common questions I'll get
in my consulting or faculty development
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work is, "There's somebody in my class
who I think might be neurodivergent.
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What should I do?” And my first
response is usually, "You certainly
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don't have to do anything.
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As far as I understand, everybody who
is admitted to your institution is
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welcome to take your class.” But if
what you're really saying is, "I'm
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not having success interacting or
communicating with a student in my class,”
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or "I can see that they're struggling
with something,” or that they're not
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getting as much out of interactions
with their peers as I hope they would.
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Well, then, yeah, we
can work through that.
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We can come up with some ideas for
how to speak to the student and
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how to find out what they do need.
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But yeah, it's not in any way [LAUGHTER]
something that needs to be responded to
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just because you've noticed that somebody
might be neurodivergent in your class.
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Those are a couple that have
come up a lot in my work.
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REBECCA: That's a really
good summary, Sarah.
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Thanks.
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JOHN: And you noted that not
all neurodivergent students
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need accommodations, but some
would benefit from those.
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But they don't always
request accommodations.
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Why might some neurodivergent
students not seek accommodations?
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And for those students, how might faculty
invite them to relay information so that
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we can address any needs that they have.
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SARAH: So I guess I'll say that
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first of all, accommodations are a very
important tool in many circumstances.
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They're obviously legally required in
cases where they're where students are
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eligible for them, but there's a lot
of areas… I wrote about a couple in my
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book… that I'll just summarize quickly.
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So one reason may be that a person just
fears some sort of adverse judgment
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because of the stigma of their disability.
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For example, maybe a student's
been judged negatively in the past
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because of their learning disability
during their previous educational
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experiences, and they might think
that was a negative thing in my life.
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I wonder if I can avoid that
by not disclosing a disability
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to anybody and seeing how I do
on my own, something like that.
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Another, and this I think is going to
be increasingly common because we do
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know that diagnostic rates are going
up for many of these diagnoses, is
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that the knowledge of the disability
or form of neurodivergence, it might
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be new, or the person doesn't have
yet sufficient information about
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what they will need, and so they may
not yet be sure how to advocate for
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themselves through the disability office.
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Though that could also apply
to advocating for themselves
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directly to their instructor.
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For example, I met a student recently
who told me that they are neurodivergent
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and that they recently went through the
ADHD diagnostic process, but they just
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didn't know what it meant for their
academic life, [LAUGHTER] if anything.
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And so they said, "I know that
you mentioned being interested in
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neurodiversity, so I thought I'd come
and chat about it, but I really don't
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know how it's going to impact things.
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And they said, "Maybe next semester or
the one after, after I have some time
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to process, I'll meet with disability
services to see.” That's another.
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There's also often additional burden
in disclosing a disability and
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going through the accommodations
process in terms of time.
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It takes a lot of time and energy.
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They may not feel that they want to
spend their limited time [LAUGHTER] on
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this, as time is limited for everyone.
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And it also may be the case that somebody
knows that they're neurodivergent and just
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simply has no diagnosis or anything that
would qualify them for accommodations.
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But even so, they may need some
kind of flexibility or may benefit
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from some sort of flexibility.
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So I think that kind of covers a
whole range of reasons someone might
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not be in contact with a disability
office and request accommodations.
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So yeah, the second part of your
question: How might an instructor
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signal openness to hearing about
somebody's needs or preferences?
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So, I can tell you a little bit about
what I do, which is a little bit
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colored by my own personal story.
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Not everybody will be able to do this or
will feel comfortable doing it, but I do
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talk a lot about my own neurodivergence
when I teach, and I kind of use that
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as a segue to suggest to students that
they are welcome to talk to me about
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any access needs or anything that's
going well or not well for them in
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the course, so I'll often just kind of
model like, “Okay, here's a little bit
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about me as a teacher and a learner.
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Here are some of my own access needs,
and just the same way I'm sharing this
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information with you, if you would like
to share similar information with me, it
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doesn't have to be about disability or
neurodivergence specifically, but anything
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about what you need to be successful
learning in the course, if there are any
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kind of red zones of like things that you
really don't do well with or would like
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to avoid.” Another really good one that I
try to offer my students is I ask them to
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tell me how they want to be communicated
with and how they want to receive
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feedback on their assignments, and they're
welcome to change it if that changes.
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But for example, instead of waiting
for someone to hand me an accommodation
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letter that says I need all communication
and feedback in writing, I ask people,
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"Can you tell me how you would best
receive this information?” And I try
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to provide it to them in that way.
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I think if you're not kind of willing to
do any kind of self-disclosure or model
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the sharing of your own access needs, but
you are interested in the neurodiversity
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of your class, it could always be
something that you say like, "I've been
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learning more about neurodiversity,
either like I read a book or I went
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to a talk, and I'm really excited
about learning more about all of you.
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If there's anything that you want
to share about like how you'll learn
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best in this class or things that I
should and shouldn't do to support
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you, here's how you can do that,” and
I think that that makes a lot of sense
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to maybe separate a little bit from the
disability accommodation statement that
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we usually have to put on the syllabus.
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Just because I never want to step on the
toes of the disability services folks,
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they often, for good reason, have their
own specific language that they like
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to use, and I don't want to in any way
kind of like complicate what it is that
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they offer, but to also talk more about
what I can offer as the instructor, as
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in like being open to hearing, being
open to flexibility, being open to
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modeling the sharing of access needs.
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That's kind of how I approach it.
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REBECCA: One of the things that sometimes
can be really helpful, I think, for
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first-year students in particular is
actually just describing what the process
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of going to the disability services
office is because it's different from
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what they experienced in high school.
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And so, there's often such a giant
learning curve, and it's not obvious.
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Many of them might actually think that
their accommodations that they had in high
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school are just going to kind of carry
on, and that somehow that's continuing in
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the way that it did through high school.
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SARAH: Yeah, I think a lot of college
faculty are unlikely to be familiar
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with this big transition unless they've
dealt with it themselves or with
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their kids or someone that they know.
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But in the K to 12 system, it's usually
the district or the school that's
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responsible for identifying students
with disabilities and making sure
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that they're receiving appropriate
services and accommodations, and the
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responsibility completely shifts to the
student themselves in higher education.
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So their institution is not
responsible for identifying them
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or determining what they need.
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They have to do all of that advocacy
work themselves, and so, of course,
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certainly they may bring documentation
from their high school experience to
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help support the process, but it's not
a straight through line, I guess you
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could say, from K-12 to college, and I
know that's why a lot of people who work
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with neurodivergent young people focus
a lot on this transition to independent
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self advocacy at the college level
because it is a pretty major transition.
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JOHN: You describe teaching
in the neurodiversity paradigm
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as defined in your book.
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What distinguishes this approach from
other inclusive teaching practices?
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SARAH: So I describe like my approach
to neurodiversity as teaching
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in the neurodiversity paradigm.
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In some ways, to specifically identify
my approach as relevant to all students
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and instructors rather than only about
neurodivergent students, and so it's
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worth just talking a little bit about
what the neurodiversity paradigm is, and
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then kind of how I apply it to teaching.
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So the neurodiversity paradigm is
kind of like a philosophical approach
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to neurodiversity that was developed
by Nick Walker, who wrote the book
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Neuroqueer Heresies which is like a pretty
foundational text about neurodiversity.
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But in my book, you can
read a paraphrase of it.
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The basic idea is that human cognitive
variation is overall a positive thing.
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That doesn't mean that every form of
variation is desired or positive for
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an individual person, but the fact that
human cognition varies quite a bit is
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generally a positive, and that there
isn't a single best or right type of
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human mind, and there isn't a single best
way to think, behave, or communicate.
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That's kind of how I paraphrase it.
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And so, the way that I try to apply
this to teaching is to ask the question:
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What if we really committed to this in
our teaching of saying that there isn't
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a single best way to think, behave, or
communicate, and what would that do to
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a lot of our assumptions about how we
design courses, how we interact with
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students, the behavior that we expect
of students, all of that sort of thing?
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So when I talk about teaching in the
neurodiversity paradigm, there's two other
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concepts that I think are really integral.
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One is the idea of tolerance for error.
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This is actually a feature of universal
design, not UDL, but the architectural
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version of universal design.
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And tolerance for error is really
about any kind of design that minimizes
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adverse consequences for mistakes.
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So one of the built environment things
is that you can pull the lever up or
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push it down to open a door, or also
like when you enter a password or
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something, it doesn't automatically lock
you out if you type it wrong one time.
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And I think that this is really useful
in my kind of neurodiversity paradigm
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idea, it’s a really useful thing
to apply to the classroom as well.
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A lot of my experience as a
student, I would say, is of a lot
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of misunderstandings that ended up
being viewed by my professor as a
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not meeting learning outcomes, or
even laziness, or things like that.
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And I think that adopting the idea
of tolerance for error might help
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bring a little bit more humility to
misunderstandings and miscommunications
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that often occur between students
and instructors, whether the people
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involved are neurodivergent or not.
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So I have a lot of examples of how
tolerance for error could work in the
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book, and then my last concept that I
think is really useful is that of access
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friction, which I've also written a
lot about in some other venues, access
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friction is any situation in which there's
a conflict of access needs, and I think
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this is really relevant to teaching in
the neurodiversity paradigm because,
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first of all, neurodivergence is a kind of
concept about how some people's cognition
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differs from what the assumed norm is.
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Not all neurodivergent people have
the exact same needs or strengths
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or challenges, and far from it.
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Even within a group of all
neurodivergent people, there's
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probably going to be a conflict
of needs that emerges in some way.
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I think a really common one that I see in
the teaching environment is I have taught
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a lot of autistic students who prefer
written communication and are much more
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successful with written communication.
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And then I've had some students
with learning disabilities and
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specifically dyslexia who struggle
a lot with written communication and
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greatly prefer verbal communication
or visual aids or other media.
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And so those are two neurodivergent
students who have contrasting
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access needs or preferences, or
what would be ideal for them.
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So I also think a lot about
how access friction can occur
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between students and instructors.
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Instructors themselves often have access
needs or constraints on their time or
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their capacity, and this can also conflict
with what students sometimes need.
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So I say overall, if I had to summarize,
all of my teaching in the neurodiversity
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paradigm ideas are about negotiating
difference and understanding between
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students and students, and students
and instructors, rather than viewing
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neurodivergent students as a group that
has challenges that need to be remedied.
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But it's kind of a broader picture of
recognizing that people do have really
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different needs and understandings, and
that the negotiation of those is to be
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expected rather than this kind of shock
to the system when it has to happen.
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REBECCA: One of the things that I'm
thinking about as you're describing
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both kind of reducing access friction
and also increasing error tolerance
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is what are some of the common ways
that folks might approach teaching or
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teaching strategies that folks use that
might be adapted a bit to reduce that
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friction or to allow for more error?
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SARAH: So when we talk about what
we're up to, [LAUGHTER] definitely
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more about my new access friction
work, just as a little preview.
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So especially for tolerance for error,
I like to think a lot about trying
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to avoid situations in which either
format or audience or any kind of
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one factor can tank the grade or the
achievement of the learning outcomes,
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and there's no kind of recourse for that.
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I think that, oftentimes,
that can be done with design.
379
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I really appreciate approaches like TILT,
transparency in learning and teaching.
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So intentional ways of making sure that
the expectations are communicated, or that
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students have opportunity to clarify them
as much as is needed or as is feasible.
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On the other hand, I think that tolerance
for error can often also be achieved on
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the instructor's side after the error.
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I have a really good example of this.
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I write about it in the book.
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So a story was told in a kind of
research article about the experiences
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of autistic students, that a student
submitted a lab report and they had kind
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of tried to meet all the expectations
of the instructor, but ultimately they
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got not such a good grade, or they got
marked down or feedback in some way that
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they had misunderstood the audience.
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So the instructor wanted them to write
a scientific lab report to the audience
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of somebody who does not know anything
about the experiment and is going to
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get all the information they need, and
apparently maybe they hadn't communicated
394
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that as clearly to the students.
395
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This autistic student who was the subject
of the discussion in the article had
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basically written the lab report with no
background information, and when asked,
397
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the student said, "Well, I think the most
obvious audience of this is my instructor,
398
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and he assigned the lab, [LAUGHTER] so he
knows all of the background information,
399
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and that doesn't need to be repeated.
400
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And in certain spaces that I've seen
this anecdote discussed, this was viewed
401
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as a deficit in perspective taking for
the student, so to kind of incorrectly
402
00:24:47,939 --> 00:24:51,009
understand that the lab report should
be written for a general audience,
403
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and to make the mistaken assumption
that the audience is the instructor.
404
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I think this is an area where tolerance
for error could be applied, to kind of
405
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say the student actually did recognize
an audience quite correctly, in a sense.
406
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There was an overlay of the writing
instruction here that the instructor did
407
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have a different idea of what they were
hoping for, but to put it very bluntly,
408
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I don't think anyone did anything wrong.
409
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And to suggest that this is going to
have a very adverse consequence on the
410
00:25:20,650 --> 00:25:24,119
student's grade, I think that's like where
I would try to apply tolerance for error.
411
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It was a difference of understanding
that's reasonable, maybe difficult
412
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to have avoided in the first place,
and I would want to get away from
413
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the idea that that needs to be
punished in grade form in some way.
414
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And, I don't know, there's a number
of different responses I could make.
415
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If I were the instructor, I would
probably go back to the idea of
416
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teaching in the neurodiversity paradigm,
to just kind of sit and ponder.
417
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That's not how I thought
about it, and that's not how
418
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I thought I communicated it.
419
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:57,399
But I do see how they interpreted it,
and what could be the positives in that?
420
00:25:57,770 --> 00:26:01,730
What could this student be bringing to
the assignment that I didn't anticipate?
421
00:26:02,199 --> 00:26:06,780
What strength did they demonstrate by
interpreting it in this way, if any?
422
00:26:06,979 --> 00:26:08,409
And how do I carry that forward?
423
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The answer might be different for every
instructor, and someone also might
424
00:26:11,580 --> 00:26:14,339
turn around and say, "Okay, I just
have to make sure that this doesn't
425
00:26:14,339 --> 00:26:17,589
happen again. I really need them to
write for a general audience with
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appropriate background information.”
But what do you do with that incident?
427
00:26:20,889 --> 00:26:24,390
Do you say, "Okay, that person wasn't able
to take perspective,” or do you say, "What
428
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did they demonstrate in terms of their
understanding of the whole assignment.”
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JOHN: So transparency in
expectations is really important.
430
00:26:31,569 --> 00:26:35,619
But when instructors are vague, they
should allow students to interpret
431
00:26:35,619 --> 00:26:37,919
it in a reasonable way in that case.
432
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SARAH: Right, yeah, that's
one way of putting it.
433
00:26:40,129 --> 00:26:42,339
And I've written a little
bit about this on my blog.
434
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But if you are a neurodivergent
instructor, I think that the whole concept
435
00:26:46,790 --> 00:26:51,720
of transparency, it can be a little bit
tricky because one of the base experiences
436
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,879
I think of being neurodivergent is that
people often interpret what you say in
437
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:01,270
a really different way than what you're
expecting and I'm often taking extra
438
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,850
lengths to kind of explain specifically
what I mean to other people and so I have
439
00:27:06,850 --> 00:27:11,370
less of an expectation, I guess, as an
instructor that people will understand
440
00:27:11,889 --> 00:27:16,509
what I'm saying or what I want the first
time, and I expect a lot of clarification.
441
00:27:16,849 --> 00:27:21,619
And I've also come to realize over time
that people sometimes have completely
442
00:27:21,689 --> 00:27:26,379
other factors or information that are
affecting their understanding that I
443
00:27:26,379 --> 00:27:28,069
don't have access to, and I can't change.
444
00:27:28,289 --> 00:27:31,119
This is an example that I think
I wrote about in the book, but
445
00:27:31,139 --> 00:27:32,460
it kind of demonstrates this.
446
00:27:33,020 --> 00:27:36,510
I had said to students in a class
where they had a discussion board
447
00:27:36,510 --> 00:27:40,870
assignment: you don't need to write
in the formal academic style, and
448
00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:43,109
you don't need to use APA citation.
449
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,080
That's not the point of this assignment.
450
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,399
The point is something else, to discuss or
to offer your own opinion on the readings.
451
00:27:49,449 --> 00:27:52,679
But then, even after I had said
this a lot of times, I saw some
452
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:53,689
students were still doing it.
453
00:27:54,019 --> 00:27:56,599
They were still writing a
formal introduction sentence.
454
00:27:56,599 --> 00:28:00,659
They were still doing parenthetical
citations in the APA reference formatting.
455
00:28:01,259 --> 00:28:04,739
I kept thinking about it, and I
eventually asked some of them, and I
456
00:28:04,739 --> 00:28:07,839
was like, "But did you hear or did you
remember that I said you didn't need to
457
00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:12,699
do that?” And they said, "Yeah, but all
of our other professors do require it.
458
00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:16,789
So it was hard to imagine that you
were serious about this, basically.”
459
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:20,109
[LAUGHTER] And that happened
with another assignment as well.
460
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,180
I don't remember exactly what it was,
but I thought that through, and I said,
461
00:28:23,180 --> 00:28:27,289
"Well, they're right about the fact
that this institution does prioritize
462
00:28:27,290 --> 00:28:31,359
a certain kind of consistency about
policies throughout different courses.
463
00:28:31,589 --> 00:28:34,639
This just happened to be one area
where I didn't do the same thing as
464
00:28:34,639 --> 00:28:38,719
their instructors, and maybe their
prior experiences they had never had
465
00:28:38,719 --> 00:28:43,249
an instructor say you can choose what
to do in some of these ways, and it
466
00:28:43,250 --> 00:28:45,889
felt like the most conservative thing
to do to say, “Ah okay, I'll just do
467
00:28:45,889 --> 00:28:49,599
it the way that the other instructors
were doing it,” so I didn't know that
468
00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:52,590
that's how they were thinking about it.
469
00:28:52,590 --> 00:28:54,050
Obviously, no one was harmed
in the course of this.
470
00:28:54,660 --> 00:28:57,569
[LAUGHTER] It's not that big of a
deal, but it's just one illustration.
471
00:28:57,860 --> 00:29:00,589
I find it endlessly interesting
to figure out, okay, how did
472
00:29:00,589 --> 00:29:01,890
you interpret that, and why?
473
00:29:01,929 --> 00:29:04,819
And that helps me update how
I communicate in the future.
474
00:29:05,009 --> 00:29:07,839
REBECCA: You provided a few
different examples of what to do
475
00:29:07,849 --> 00:29:12,239
after something was misinterpreted
or just differently interpreted.
476
00:29:12,410 --> 00:29:14,799
Can you talk a little bit about
some of the proactive strategies
477
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,919
instructors can do to put some
structures in place that are friendly
478
00:29:18,959 --> 00:29:21,710
to a wide variety of audience members?
479
00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:25,910
SARAH: So, if you do end up reading
the book, you'll find out that I kind
480
00:29:25,910 --> 00:29:30,039
of am not a big fan of saying, “Okay,
well, there's these clear strategies
481
00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:34,290
that are definitely going to work.”
I tend to phrase things into the
482
00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:36,289
buckets of like an area to check.
483
00:29:36,349 --> 00:29:39,879
Like, here's a certain phenomenon in
the classroom where you might want to
484
00:29:39,879 --> 00:29:43,690
check out the design and what's going
on here a little bit more closely.
485
00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:48,520
And one of the models of that that I
really like is the idea of a kairotic
486
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:53,339
space, and Margaret Price introduced me
to that term in her book, Mad at School.
487
00:29:53,339 --> 00:29:57,929
And chirotic is a way of saying something
that is very dependent on time in a
488
00:29:57,930 --> 00:30:02,100
certain sense, because kairos is the
like classical rhetorical concept of
489
00:30:02,139 --> 00:30:06,340
being at the right time, and she kind
of defines kairotic spaces in the
490
00:30:06,340 --> 00:30:11,999
classroom as either things that are
rapidly unfolding, or highly social,
491
00:30:12,009 --> 00:30:17,379
or high stakes, or potentially all at
the same time, and I think that those
492
00:30:17,389 --> 00:30:21,419
types of activities are really good
places to do further analysis of how
493
00:30:21,419 --> 00:30:25,789
they might be impacting neurodivergent
students or groups that contain
494
00:30:25,829 --> 00:30:27,469
neurodivergent and neurotypical students.
495
00:30:27,930 --> 00:30:33,989
So any activity that is designed
to be highly social or where the
496
00:30:33,989 --> 00:30:39,109
highly social element is considered a
benefit of it, this may not work the
497
00:30:39,109 --> 00:30:42,549
same way for all students, including
maybe some neurodivergent students.
498
00:30:42,770 --> 00:30:47,430
And it might be interesting to think
about building in options for that kind
499
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:49,999
of situation that is highly social.
500
00:30:50,419 --> 00:30:55,220
For example, if you're imagining it will
be fun for students to spontaneously meet
501
00:30:55,299 --> 00:30:59,899
with a group of their peers and to share
about themselves, or share what they did
502
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:03,800
over the weekend, or share where they
come from, to kind of think about: okay,
503
00:31:04,009 --> 00:31:08,680
might there be a range of prompts that
people can answer, might there be a range
504
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,339
of formats in which they could answer?
505
00:31:10,540 --> 00:31:14,039
Could they share something in
text form or not in a verbal form?
506
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,699
Could people opt to do that
in just a pair of two rather
507
00:31:17,699 --> 00:31:19,000
than a group of four or five?
508
00:31:19,489 --> 00:31:24,700
Could somebody opt to do that in a
quieter space instead of in a space where
509
00:31:24,709 --> 00:31:26,840
everybody's talking all at the same time.
510
00:31:27,169 --> 00:31:31,720
I think another area to check that's
somewhat similar is any kind of very
511
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,699
rapidly unfolding activity where either
something is timed, like there's timers
512
00:31:36,699 --> 00:31:41,339
going off and cutting people off, or
where people have a very limited amount
513
00:31:41,339 --> 00:31:44,419
of time to answer a question or do a task.
514
00:31:44,699 --> 00:31:48,629
The reason that I mention this in the
context of neurodivergence specifically
515
00:31:48,639 --> 00:31:52,039
is that a lot of neurodivergent
people process certain kinds of
516
00:31:52,059 --> 00:31:56,759
information at slower or sometimes
faster speeds, depending on what it is.
517
00:31:57,099 --> 00:32:00,639
For example, like there's a number
of autistic people who process verbal
518
00:32:00,639 --> 00:32:04,799
information more slowly, and I think
people with certain kinds of learning
519
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,809
disabilities may also process some
kinds of information more slowly, and
520
00:32:09,809 --> 00:32:14,129
so kind of building flexibility into
how much time people have for something,
521
00:32:14,459 --> 00:32:18,469
whether they can have time at home to
process the information that's going
522
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:22,610
to be needed within the class session,
or transition it into a different
523
00:32:22,610 --> 00:32:24,000
format that works well for them.
524
00:32:24,379 --> 00:32:29,349
I think that's really great, and then I
think as well to consider whether some
525
00:32:29,349 --> 00:32:35,359
of these types of activities have to be
as high stakes as you originally think.
526
00:32:35,729 --> 00:32:41,080
I call this sometimes highly layered
activities where something is both highly
527
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,510
social and rapidly unfolding and high
stakes all at the same time, when it
528
00:32:45,510 --> 00:32:48,079
doesn't necessarily have to be that way.
529
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,920
So the idea of giving students experience
with working as a team with other
530
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,569
students, it doesn't have to be 50%
of their grade [LAUGHTER] or 30% of
531
00:32:56,570 --> 00:32:58,639
their grade to get that experience.
532
00:32:58,910 --> 00:33:02,339
Working collaboratively doesn't have
to be with four or five other people;
533
00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:03,680
it could be with one other person.
534
00:33:04,029 --> 00:33:09,419
And to kind of think like, how can you
pull different levers to make something
535
00:33:09,580 --> 00:33:14,330
into more of a learning and practice
experience than a high-stakes everything
536
00:33:14,340 --> 00:33:16,420
that's hard all combined at the same time.
537
00:33:16,860 --> 00:33:21,319
I think that that could be an area
to further investigate if you are
538
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,590
teaching neurodivergent students or
you're interested in responding to
539
00:33:25,169 --> 00:33:26,699
neurodiversity more in your practice.
540
00:33:26,989 --> 00:33:30,300
So I know that's not like a checklist,
but a checklist perspective doesn't
541
00:33:30,349 --> 00:33:31,820
align with how I think so much.
542
00:33:31,820 --> 00:33:34,310
So those are just like some areas
that I would investigate further.
543
00:33:34,619 --> 00:33:38,869
JOHN: So there are some areas where
things that work well for some students
544
00:33:38,889 --> 00:33:43,220
won't work as well for other students,
and I think what you're saying is
545
00:33:43,220 --> 00:33:45,909
that we can't just come up with
these hard and fixed rules that'll
546
00:33:45,909 --> 00:33:47,519
work for every group of students.
547
00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:49,679
We have to somehow negotiate these things.
548
00:33:49,979 --> 00:33:54,610
But one of the areas where there's
often some challenges for students
549
00:33:55,430 --> 00:34:00,579
that are neurodiverse is when classroom
participation is part of the grade in
550
00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:04,209
some way, because some students are
much more comfortable with some forms
551
00:34:04,209 --> 00:34:06,290
of classroom participation than others.
552
00:34:06,709 --> 00:34:10,100
What sort of strategies might work
to provide a balance that would
553
00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:13,710
work for most of the students
in terms of class participation?
554
00:34:14,229 --> 00:34:18,879
SARAH: So I'm a big fan of offering
multiple options for participation.
555
00:34:19,339 --> 00:34:23,649
I think that a reasonable person
could differ from me in saying I want
556
00:34:23,649 --> 00:34:27,410
students to participate in certain
ways, at least some of the time.
557
00:34:27,879 --> 00:34:33,129
I generally don't mind if students
exclusively participate via text or
558
00:34:33,129 --> 00:34:36,959
discussion board and if they don't speak
in class, some people do, and I think
559
00:34:36,959 --> 00:34:40,760
that it's reasonable to say, okay, I
want to build an environment in which
560
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,219
people have structured on ramps, I call
them, to participating in class verbally.
561
00:34:45,219 --> 00:34:49,910
But generally speaking, to say there's
multiple ways to participate, and those
562
00:34:49,910 --> 00:34:54,879
can be chosen from to a certain extent
is a really great start, I think as
563
00:34:54,879 --> 00:34:59,109
well, beyond the kind of like counting
up how many times people participate.
564
00:34:59,229 --> 00:35:01,749
You mentioned the idea of
like faculty perceptions of
565
00:35:01,759 --> 00:35:03,140
student class participation.
566
00:35:03,250 --> 00:35:07,890
It may be interesting for faculty to
expand what they perceive as successful
567
00:35:07,899 --> 00:35:12,119
class participation, and one category
I hear a lot about when people talk
568
00:35:12,129 --> 00:35:16,510
about their neurodivergent students is
actually what they refer to as quote too
569
00:35:16,510 --> 00:35:18,569
much participation versus not enough.
570
00:35:18,589 --> 00:35:21,959
It's a pretty common story that I'll
hear, someone will say, "There's a
571
00:35:21,959 --> 00:35:24,989
neurodivergent student in my class,
and they raise their hand all the
572
00:35:24,989 --> 00:35:28,940
time, and I think that actually maybe
there's other students who would like
573
00:35:28,940 --> 00:35:31,749
to participate, but maybe they're not
taking the opportunity because this
574
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:35,189
person talks a lot.” And I kind of go
back to the neurodiversity paradigm
575
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:39,759
ideas again as well, which is okay,
like first, can we start by saying what
576
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,870
strengths is this person demonstrating?
577
00:35:41,900 --> 00:35:42,810
What are they offering?
578
00:35:43,220 --> 00:35:44,750
Somebody told me at first.
579
00:35:44,750 --> 00:35:47,629
I was thinking about how to get this
person to stop raising their hand,
580
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:50,789
but then I realized I go to sleep
at night wishing my students would
581
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:54,009
participate more [LAUGHTER] and that
they would be as passionate and engaged.
582
00:35:54,020 --> 00:35:55,769
So I think I have to start from there.
583
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,800
If the balance of who's speaking in my
class isn't quite working, to not start
584
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,279
from the perspective of I don't like how
much this person is participating, but I'm
585
00:36:05,289 --> 00:36:09,819
really glad that they're so enthusiastic,
and I'm grateful for their presence.
586
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:13,660
So now I want to think about how
I can encourage the participation
587
00:36:13,660 --> 00:36:14,789
of everybody in the class.
588
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:18,300
Maybe think about is there a way
that I want to balance the voices
589
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:22,100
that are present, the modality of the
participation, all those sorts of things.
590
00:36:22,419 --> 00:36:27,909
I am also a big fan of creating
opportunities to record and
591
00:36:27,959 --> 00:36:29,600
get out a lot of questions.
592
00:36:29,610 --> 00:36:32,659
So I am probably one of those people
who participates like a little
593
00:36:32,660 --> 00:36:34,119
bit too much [LAUGHTER] sometimes.
594
00:36:34,129 --> 00:36:36,440
So like the idea of having a
question parking lot so you can
595
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,509
put as many questions in here as
you want, and as the instructor,
596
00:36:40,509 --> 00:36:42,479
I will get to as many as I can.
597
00:36:42,489 --> 00:36:46,340
Maybe I'll review and summarize them
and respond to a couple at once, and
598
00:36:46,349 --> 00:36:50,629
above all, to talk explicitly about
what you're doing as a facilitator.
599
00:36:50,799 --> 00:36:53,720
Say, I'm trying to encourage
as many people to participate
600
00:36:53,729 --> 00:36:54,859
in the following ways.
601
00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:58,120
I'm going to be facilitating the
conversation by moving on from
602
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,439
certain points because I have
areas of content I want to cover.
603
00:37:02,009 --> 00:37:04,239
But just kind of externalizing
that, I think, is also really great.
604
00:37:04,779 --> 00:37:08,189
REBECCA: It sounds to me like a
lot of the strategies that fit
605
00:37:08,189 --> 00:37:11,229
into this neurodiversity-informed
teaching approach could be really
606
00:37:11,229 --> 00:37:13,190
beneficial to all students.
607
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:15,019
Is that the idea?
608
00:37:15,739 --> 00:37:16,759
SARAH: Yeah, I think so.
609
00:37:16,809 --> 00:37:20,929
I think part of the way that I frame
everything is that neurodiversity
610
00:37:20,930 --> 00:37:24,889
includes everybody, so it doesn't include
just neurodivergent people, and so a
611
00:37:24,889 --> 00:37:29,360
lot of the strategies that I introduce
are aimed, I would say, a little
612
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,020
bit less at things that specifically
target neurodivergent students and
613
00:37:33,029 --> 00:37:38,150
more about coexistence and negotiation
between large diverse groups of people.
614
00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:42,179
And that is not to suggest that
there aren't wonderful resources for
615
00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:43,729
supporting neurodivergent students.
616
00:37:44,020 --> 00:37:46,919
I think you've actually had some
people on the podcast who have
617
00:37:46,919 --> 00:37:48,479
written really wonderfully about that.
618
00:37:48,979 --> 00:37:52,269
Specifically, Jennifer Pusateri
just had a new book come out
619
00:37:52,489 --> 00:37:53,920
supporting neurodivergent students.
620
00:37:54,259 --> 00:37:57,659
Karen Costa's book about ADHD
learners was really great.
621
00:37:57,860 --> 00:38:00,369
There's a couple books I have
on my bookshelf about supporting
622
00:38:00,379 --> 00:38:01,440
autistic college students.
623
00:38:01,709 --> 00:38:02,810
Those are all really, really great.
624
00:38:02,810 --> 00:38:06,669
I think the approach I wanted to take a
little bit more here was okay, but it's
625
00:38:06,669 --> 00:38:10,969
never just one neurodivergent student or
a group of all people with the same needs.
626
00:38:11,110 --> 00:38:14,580
It's a pretty complex mix of
people, including the instructor,
627
00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:17,079
and so that's kind of the approach
that I take more in the book.
628
00:38:17,449 --> 00:38:19,819
REBECCA: I do think that's something
that we hear from faculty a lot
629
00:38:19,830 --> 00:38:23,829
is like, how do I balance all
these like really different needs?
630
00:38:23,830 --> 00:38:27,130
So it's certainly a resource that
I think people are hungry for.
631
00:38:27,649 --> 00:38:28,379
SARAH: Okay, that's great to hear.
632
00:38:29,330 --> 00:38:32,029
JOHN: You've already hinted at
this a little bit, but could
633
00:38:32,029 --> 00:38:33,980
you tell us about what's next?
634
00:38:34,309 --> 00:38:37,939
SARAH: So, as I hinted at earlier,
I'm really interested in the concept
635
00:38:37,940 --> 00:38:41,340
of access friction, which is the
conflict between different sets
636
00:38:41,340 --> 00:38:42,680
of access needs you could say.
637
00:38:42,849 --> 00:38:46,179
So, I'm working on a whole new book
project just about access friction,
638
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,549
and it will hopefully be published
with the same press in the same series.
639
00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:50,309
So that's exciting.
640
00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:55,509
And in that book, I'm really going
to kind of explore and theorize and
641
00:38:55,779 --> 00:39:00,349
research instances of access friction
in the classroom, a focus on higher ed
642
00:39:00,369 --> 00:39:05,420
pedagogy, and really think about the
specific steps we can take to balance
643
00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:07,349
different needs in the classroom.
644
00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:11,640
So I'll be answering or hoping to answer
all sorts of interesting questions, such
645
00:39:11,669 --> 00:39:17,369
as: Is there an inclusive strategy or set
of them that truly does include everybody?
646
00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:22,819
And even taking a little bit more of a
curious and critical perspective on the
647
00:39:22,820 --> 00:39:27,520
idea of inclusive teaching strategies
themselves, I think that what I'm hoping
648
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,879
to do with further research on access
friction is, in some ways, just give
649
00:39:31,889 --> 00:39:35,990
voice and give name to a phenomenon
that I know that a lot of people have
650
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,419
experienced [LAUGHTER] some time in
their teaching journey, but not really
651
00:39:39,419 --> 00:39:41,199
knowing exactly what to do with.
652
00:39:41,339 --> 00:39:45,809
And I'm like really happy to be working
more deeply on that topic, and I guess
653
00:39:45,809 --> 00:39:50,210
I should also say it's very connected
to neurodiversity for me because
654
00:39:50,540 --> 00:39:56,499
of the fact that neurodiversity and
neurodivergence refers to a coalition
655
00:39:56,529 --> 00:40:01,570
of people, kind of a group of people
who may share that their cognition
656
00:40:01,589 --> 00:40:07,540
differs a little bit or a lot from social
norms or expectations of society, but
657
00:40:07,540 --> 00:40:09,879
not that everybody has the same needs.
658
00:40:10,169 --> 00:40:14,239
[LAUGHTER] And just going back to my
interest in neurodiversity history,
659
00:40:14,279 --> 00:40:18,589
some of the first events that the
autistic community put together-one
660
00:40:18,589 --> 00:40:21,929
was called Autreat, like retreat,
[LAUGHTER] but autistics for retreat.
661
00:40:22,290 --> 00:40:25,430
So you can look back at some of the
writings about that and just see some
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00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:29,759
of these advocates noting that even in
a retreat that was only for autistic
663
00:40:29,759 --> 00:40:33,530
people, they experienced significant
disagreement and friction over how
664
00:40:33,530 --> 00:40:37,209
it should be run, how it could be
accessible to all people, and so this
665
00:40:37,209 --> 00:40:40,609
has been a through line of Classroom
Mindscapes, and so I'm hoping to just
666
00:40:40,610 --> 00:40:42,129
kind of expand on that a little bit more.
667
00:40:42,220 --> 00:40:45,990
And my other thing that's next, I've
been currently both leading and also
668
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:51,160
just participating in a lot of discussion
about instructor interest in lower
669
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,569
tech teaching or taking technology
away from classroom interactions,
670
00:40:55,959 --> 00:40:59,880
probably spurred by increasing
AI use and penetration [LAUGHTER]
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00:40:59,940 --> 00:41:01,489
of the whole teaching community.
672
00:41:01,489 --> 00:41:05,989
And so I've been really interested in
how that can align with accessibility
673
00:41:06,009 --> 00:41:08,729
commitments and interest in accessibility.
674
00:41:09,259 --> 00:41:12,719
JOHN: As we were going through this, I was
noting this is one of the few podcasts we
675
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:14,989
have where AI did not come up right until
676
00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:17,749
then.
677
00:41:17,749 --> 00:41:17,759
[LAUGHTER]
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00:41:17,759 --> 00:41:17,829
SARAH: Well I had to get in in.
679
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:18,090
Yeah.
680
00:41:18,169 --> 00:41:19,020
JOHN: But it did, yeah.
681
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:20,299
REBECCA: It always does.
682
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,549
These sound like some
really great projects.
683
00:41:22,989 --> 00:41:24,869
I'm looking forward to
seeing where they lead.
684
00:41:25,679 --> 00:41:26,369
SARAH: Yeah, thank you.
685
00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:29,679
JOHN: I'm looking forward to getting
my copy of your book, which should be
686
00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:34,290
coming out later this month, and also
looking forward to future conversations
687
00:41:34,290 --> 00:41:36,290
about access friction and other things.
688
00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:41,189
And in general, that's just an incredibly
good book series for people in higher ed.
689
00:41:41,490 --> 00:41:42,679
REBECCA: Thank you so much for joining us.
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00:41:42,980 --> 00:41:44,719
SARAH: Yeah, thank you so
much for the invitation.
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00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,779
I really enjoyed meeting and
talking with both of you.
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00:41:47,020 --> 00:41:47,339
JOHN: Thank you.
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00:41:56,519 --> 00:41:56,589
[MUSIC]
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00:41:58,959 --> 00:42:03,179
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please
subscribe and leave a review on Apple
695
00:42:03,219 --> 00:42:05,760
Podcasts or your favorite podcast service.
696
00:42:06,349 --> 00:42:10,879
To continue the conversation, join us
on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
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00:42:11,829 --> 00:42:14,450
REBECCA: You can find show
notes, transcripts and other
698
00:42:14,450 --> 00:42:16,779
materials on teaforteaching.com.
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00:42:17,809 --> 00:42:19,779
Music by Michael Gary Brewer.
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00:42:19,779 --> 00:42:23,779
[MUSIC]