James Goddard: Hello and welcome to not another recruitment podcast, another podcast about recruitment. My name is James Goddard and I'm joined today by the amazing Rob Behar. Hello, Rob.
Rob Behar: Hello, James. Nice to nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
James Goddard: No worries. Thank you very much for coming. Would you like to do a short introduction about yourself?
Rob Behar: Course. I'm Rob Bihar. been in recruitment around 12 years now, TA for the majority of that, round about a decade. worked at a few startups, scale-ups and and some other large household names. also had a a short stint in in the civil service as well. always been super passionate about recruitment and the impact of a good TA function and how how that can have a good impact on the business. I am currently back on the the job market myself. and ultimately it's been a bit of an eye opener. you know, I've always kind of prided myself on being able to find something quickly, but I've experienced some really, really good recruitment processes, but also experienced some things that have made me think, you know, come on. We we need we as TA need to be doing a bit better. so yeah, ultimately that's that's what I I'd love to have a chat with you about today, really. you know, not necessarily what's what's wrong with recruitment, but but really what we can be doing better.
James Goddard: Yeah, it's an interesting perspective to have because when you're in TA, you're not necessarily feeling, thinking about the experience of people applying to jobs, you're processing those applications. So to be
Rob Behar: Mm. Yeah.
James Goddard: on the other side of that and actually kind of see what it's like and experience the processes, it gives you a kind of a unique perspective.
Rob Behar: Yeah, it does. And and and I suppose it gives you that fuel for when you do go into something new. w when you do go into something new, you know what not to do, as well and and and what you
James Goddard: That helps you.
Rob Behar: what what you could potentially change and it's just I suppose it gives you that ammo going into a going into a new role.
James Goddard: Yeah, for sure. You go in there with a mission, you know what works or what you've seen and what you'd like to change.
Rob Behar: Yeah. And some things are really quick fixes as well, that make a real big impact. So, by being able to do that, you're showing the you're showing the impact that you can make in a in a very short period of time.
James Goddard: Yeah, I suppose before we start talking about improving candidate experience, it's probably worth talking a little bit about the current state of the TA job market, because it's a bit of a strange place,
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: which you're no doubt experiencing. I'm experiencing on the other side, suppose, recruiting for TAs. So, I mean, how have you found it?
Rob Behar: tough. Tough. I I think that it's it's an interesting time. I suppose, you know, you had the steady flow of TA jobs when TA was becoming more and more popular within businesses. you know, outside of the the typical we'll we'll farm everything out to an agency. Actually, you know what? We'll we wanna bring in some in you know, our own in-house teams. And I noticed that. during my during my agency days. then we had the the real boom over COVID, which was, you know, TA people getting approached two, three, four times a day, right? For for for for various roles and and you know, salaries were through the roof and you know, I've never seen a market like it. it was just it was just so buoyant. and a great time to be in in TA. And I think that since since then, it's just complete steadily dropped off. since probably in the last I'd say probably the last four, four, five years or so. it's it's just really, really dropped off. And it's I think that the reasons for that are the fine, you know, not enough jobs around TA teams are leaner. so gone are the days where you're gonna have four, five, six TA people in a team. you know, might have one person doing absolutely everything, you might have a TA manager and a TA partner, you might have a couple of TA partners and a TA manager, but you know, you you're you're you're usually having fairly lean teams. So unless one of those people leaves, or a a business gets a load of investment and they want to, they they they want to expand the team, it there's not that those vacancies aren't going to be there. I've also there's also the the usual competition of agency candidates going into wanting to move internally. so which has always been the case. so you've got, you know, agency people wanting to move in-house. You've got seasoned in house recruiters fighting for for one potential job plus also you've got people that you know like myself who have been the who've been made redundant and then immediately available looking looking for a role as well. So yeah it's it's super competitive. But there is a market, right? There are there are roles out there. It's just really, really, really competitive at the moment.
James Goddard: Yeah, definitely. Definitely agree with a number of your thoughts there. There's certainly a market. I think the market is becoming more driven by FTC and day rate contracts. Certainly seen that.
Rob Behar: I'd agree with that.
James Goddard: And then there's a lack of true head of TA roles. think talking about that period of time, that boom periods, which a lot of people call post COVID boom in the recruitment market, kind of around 2021 to 2023. It felt like everyone in the whole world was hiring for TA and actually they couldn't hire enough TA. So, you you have this really competitive market, but it was all candidate led. So it was very competitive for employers to find good TA and get have TA stay and then also have enough TA. And now it's flipped and you've got a market with a lot of people looking and it's a bit of an employer's market, you know, and there are some employees that do very well with that, they still treat people well and they've made sure the salaries are staying up and stuff. I think then there's also a little bit of compression on salaries in certain areas as well because people know that they can maybe get away with offering slightly less or not increasing the salaries year on year. So I think it's turned into more of an employer's market in that respect. But there is definitely a market.
Rob Behar: Yeah, I I'd I'd I'd agree on that as well. in terms of salaries, I am finding that, you know, salaries are notoriously quite quite low. you know, I I've seen TA lead roles at thirty five K managing three people, you know, it's it's it's nuts. It's nuts.
James Goddard: That's bonkers, isn't it? That's absolutely bonkers. Yeah.
Rob Behar: you know, and I I get it, you know, salaries in the north sometimes tend to be tend to be slightly lower than London, but I'm based in Manchester and it's not too it's not too dissimilar to to to London with with most industries. So I don't know why, you know, my I mean my opinion is that TA is probably one of the most important departments within within a business. so you know without TA you're not getting the right people in for all the other departments that are that that are gonna bring revenue in. So so there I I I feel like within a lot of businesses that you know that PA sometimes is seen as a bit of a cost, as opposed to that strategic function. some businesses, as you said, some businesses do it really, really well. but but some see it more of a cost as a as opposed to a a strategic function. So that when hiring slows down, you know, TA is obviously one of those first functions out the door. an up up for redundancy. but then when hiring picks back up again, you know, they suddenly start panicking and they're like, well, we need we need to hire recruiters again. So you know, I think that where a lot of businesses see recruitment or TA or or or whatever you want to call it is that they're just filling jobs. Whereas actually
James Goddard: Hmm.
Rob Behar: we're we we we do, you know, a lot more than that. We're we're really influencing, our our our workforce planning, improving those pr hiring processes, challenging stakeholders and and and ultimately, you know, helping the business make those better hiring decisions as opposed to just filling filling vacancies.
James Goddard: Yeah, I think those businesses have probably never seen TA done well. If you bring a TA in and they're told to just do operational stuff, then that's what they'll do, I suppose, because that's their remit. And they will just fill jobs and take orders, and they might not be able to push back and manage stakeholders and do that strategic transformation stuff that elevates TA as a function. And yeah, absolutely. You you talk to business owners and they see the recruitment function as a cost center because it costs the business money to have someone there. And I think they miss a trick with not understanding how much it saves the business because if a business is going through growth, then they're going to have to make the recruitment somehow. And just because agency costs are, you know, fixed costs that aren't in the payroll every month, doesn't mean that they don't exist, know, agency fees still come through when someone gets placed. And, know, that can often, if you count them all up, be more than a TA, you know, over the space of a year, but much more than a TA. And then also in terms of workforce planning and actually bringing the best people on. Right. So, you know, if you're expanding your organization, you want to hire the best in class or the best that you can you can bring on or you can possibly bring on. So. TTA raises the bar in that respect as well. So much misunderstood
Rob Behar: completely, yeah.
James Goddard: function, I think. And yeah.
Rob Behar: Yeah, I completely agree. But look, if if you're I I I think a lot of you know, a lot of the time, if you know, if if you are if a business is looking at at TA as that cost center, you're probably not utilising the skill set that your TA department really have.
James Goddard: Yeah, that's very true as well. I think also you see a lot more TA learn and pick up other skills now. So. If you're in a small company, I've noticed that TA is often going into HR. know, it's your cat. TA and HR business partners. There'll be elements of ops. I've seen a lot of fast growing startups. TA will be adjacent to people like chief of staff and that type of position. So, it's a multi-skilled role for sure. And it's about utilizing it to get the best out of it for the business.
Rob Behar: No, I completely agree with you.
James Goddard: Yeah. Okay. So I suppose in your job search, Rob, you've probably seen good candidate experience and bad candidate experience. I mean, what would you list as an example of good candidate experience?
Rob Behar: really good question. I think I think the candidate experience goes beyond just a a fancy careers page, right? Or great benefits or an easy to fill application form. I think the really good candidate experience is providing a candidate with all the information that they need in order to first want you know, want to go forward for for the role further. but also that they've got all the information that they need to be able to prepare. they've got all the information in terms of right, okay, once they've had their interview, what are the next steps? if there's if there's no news regarding those next steps, okay, fine, let's touch base. in a in in a day or so, keep know keeping those candidates updated all the way throughout the process, all the way through to offer and and and beyond or rejection and and beyond as well. I think you know having that constant communication throughout the process with with your candidates is the key to, is is the key to to really having a a good good candidate experience beyond the I suppose the the E VP recruitment marketing work that that that you do.
James Goddard: Yeah, I think it's I've seen this come and go. So candidate experience is always the central point of conversations when it's hard to find candidates.
Rob Behar: Mm.
James Goddard: So you're talking about, you know, increasing candidate experience, making the process better, making sure that we can reuse candidates if they've been unsuccessful for one vacancy. Can they be good for another vacancy in the future? Making sure that employer brand is is solid. I think When I see candidate experience slip off the agenda is when people see there as being many more candidates than jobs. So it's kind of like an order filling thing. So people just go, we'll just stick a job ad out. It'll get two to 300 applicants and then we'll fill that role because it's not particularly hard to fill. And we'll provide an experience, but it's not something that we're really that fussed about. It's more about kind of... a minimum bar, a minimum effort. So
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: not kind of raising expectations or raising the bar, if that makes sense.
Rob Behar: Yeah, yeah. I think that there is a lot of that and look, we we see that I see on LinkedIn, you know, when I'm looking at when I'm looking at jobs on on LinkedIn to apply for, you know, people that they're gonna get, especially in today's TA job market, you know, where you've as I mentioned before, where you've got, you know, these three different categories of candidates all coming together to apply for for for one position. I've seen something posted half an hour ago with, you know, over over a hundred applicants. Now is that
James Goddard: Wow.
Rob Behar: because it's is that because it's easy apply, or and people just clicking on it, or are people clicking apply and it takes them to the ATS and maybe they're not applying from there, but LinkedIn still shows, you know, LinkedIn LinkedIn still shows that. now it's gonna overwhelm T the the current TA teams that that are there to sift through all of that. but then obviously you've got, you know, you've you you've still got to get back to those people and create that, you know, that experience, whether they're good for the role or not, they could be good for something else, or they could end up, you know, they could end up coming back to you in a few years' time once they've got a bit more experience in certain areas. And by not providing why by providing a good experience, they're they're going to want to work for you again. but by not providing a a good experience, you know, they're they're gonna they're gonna turn around and say, Well, I I I don't wanna work for that company because I don't know they they either they ghosted me or I didn't get feedback after my interview, after chasing, etc.
James Goddard: Yeah, and actually you'll speak to candidates and they'll have interviewed with the company one, two years ago, but if the company did it right, they'll be really happy to interview again. They'll talk positively about the experience. They'll talk positively to their friends about the experience. So it carries and people do remember, you know, they remember how they were treated when they, you know, when they needed it effectively.
Rob Behar: Yeah. Well it's it's like a trust pilot or or a or or any of those kind of review sites, right? most of you know, you go you book a hotel and you go on TripAdvisor, right? You're gonna see quite a lot of negative reviews. The reason why you're gonna see those negative a lot of those negative reviews are because people are have got those negative experiences in their head and they just wanna rant about it. Nine times out of ten, the positive experiences are usually kept to yourself or spoken to, you know, a few close friends or family. I'd really recommend going to this place. And it's I I it's the same with Glassdoor as well. You know, that's why you see so many negative reviews about any business really on on Glassdoor, because it's just full of people that have had a bad experience either working or interviewing or or anything like that. So I a hundred percent agree with you, you know, by giving someone a good experience, you wanna get you're you're you're blocking the that chance for them to to then go and write, you know, a a a bad review or go and tell
James Goddard: That bad review. Yeah.
Rob Behar: or go and tell ten people or anything like that. but I mean some of the you know some of some of the best experiences I've had particularly whilst I'm I'm looking, you know, have have resulted in in a a a rejection. But the communication was great. The feedback given was detailed. I understood why that decision was was was made. and ultimately, you know, ended up coming away from that, really respecting the business and the head of TA who who interviewed me and wanting to go away, improve on those areas, and then I'd love to get the chance to to go and interview there there again in the future at some point.
James Goddard: Yeah, and I think that kind of learning opportunity for candidates post interview is key. So, you know, it's always disappointing if you've not been selected, but if you feel like you can take something forwards from that into your next interview, that's a great gift for a company to give someone if they can't give them a job, you know, that kind of that opportunity to kind of maybe make sure that they make the next interview.
Rob Behar: Yeah, yeah, hundred percent. a hundred percent. And you know, I I think I've also had after going through, you know, two, three interview processes, well not processes, but after going through interviews, you know, I've I've ended up just getting a generic email. and you know, I think that where where we as T and and it's happening more often than not. But where we as TA probably need to do slightly better in that is that, you know, if there is there must be a certain reason as to why. Don't just heavily rely on I know we're busy, but don't just rely on a click and a and a standard rejections emblem once someone has you know once someone has interviewed. And I think that there there is there there you know is potentially a lot of that where where we we we build out the ATSs with lots of templates.
James Goddard: Yeah.
Rob Behar: but actually, you know what? A couple of a couple of minutes just to just to write a line of this is this is what this is the re yeah, this is our decision. This is the reason. Thank you very much. And opposed to we've moved forward with more suitable candidates.
James Goddard: Yeah, I assume that language can be a little bit robotic, I suppose that lacks empathy.
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: You know, the same time, I suppose it's, it's that cost benefit analysis in the TA team to say, okay, we've got three people, we've got, you know, each person's got 10, 15 live briefs open. We're behind our target in terms of hiring, but we're going to invest. an X amount of hours per week in feedback. Now I'm not saying that they shouldn't do that. I think we both agree that candidate feedback is really important for all the reasons you just described. And also I think, you know, it's just a sign of respect to people that are applying to jobs, just beyond the business reasons. But it can sometimes be hard to justify it. And sometimes I think it's maybe not even something that businesses consciously do. So do businesses consciously sit down and go, do you know what, we're going to make the candidate experience really poor today? you know, no, no, they
Rob Behar: Of course not.
James Goddard: don't. Definitely not. do they say, do you know what, we're not going to feed back to any candidate. So we're not going to feed back to candidates post-interview. They definitely don't do that either. I think it's, it's where it slips through the gaps. it's maybe the lack of, Processes in the business to catch it And it's not a metric is it in most organizations when actually maybe it should be
Rob Behar: Yeah, I agree. and look, I I I'm not suggesting that that I I know that everyone's swamp for time, right? so, you know, I'm I'm not I'm not suggesting that every recruiter should spend half an hour writing detailed feedback on, you know, for for every unsuccessful applicant. But I think that especially when someone's had, you know, got got all the way through to final, there might there might it might just be the most minuscule thing that someone did slightly better. you know, i i just tell them. you know, you interviewed really, really well. Actually, to be honest with you, we couldn't really fault you. It was just the fact that someone, you know, had more relevant experience in in this or spoke about this in a bit more detail or or or whatever. just so that just so you know the the the candidate understands, you know, your reasoning and how you how you came to that decision, you know, one or two lines or even a sentence, just to explain that. and I think that that that that would make a huge difference to people's perceptions of of of you know of of how how that's gone.
James Goddard: Yeah, absolutely. It dispels the idea that everything's being screened by AI as well. And AI is the only people that you have dialogue in. But we'll go into that in too much depth because it's been discussed.
Rob Behar: Yeah. Yeah, no, no, but there is, you know, that there there's a lot of noise around, you know, there's a lot of noise around people being screened out of of applic you know from applications or or whatever, from AI. any organisation that I've worked in, I I have always reviewed every even if I've got a hundred applicants for, for a for a singular role, I am there as a human looking through all of those. So there is a lot of
James Goddard: Yeah, yeah.
Rob Behar: noise about ATSs and AI in ATSs, et cetera. but but yeah, as I said, it's it it is nine times out of ten it is it is a human on the other end.
James Goddard: Yeah, absolutely. So you'll have ATSs help you preface CVs, right? So you'll have the ATS digest it and then it'll pull out key information. Sometimes it will score it. LinkedIn hiring assist does kind of the same thing. It's kind of borrowing on the functionality that ATSs have had for a long time. But it won't screen out calendars for you and you'd be... yeah, you'd be bonkers as a recruiter to just lean on the AI for CV screening because it's just not good enough at the moment. Absolutely not, yeah.
Rob Behar: Do we trust AI completely? And and that's the thing. Yeah, exactly. so it it's as I said, it's great that it can score. it's great that it could give you a snapshot of of a C V. Brilliant. So, you know, you're not there scrolling through through a C E V. You've got you've got the s snapshot and and you've got the score, but actually where where you can work Together with the AI is that You can actually correct the AI if if you feel that actually it's that C V is a an eighty five instead of an eighty three. you know, why do you think that? And then put it back into it and then and then hopefully the AI can then score better, you know, each time. And and and
James Goddard: Yeah, it trains it.
Rob Behar: exactly. So so, you know, I th I still think that that that human human visual on the C V is is still super important. And then let's don't forget that it's always the human pressing that reject or or progress button anyway.
James Goddard: Yeah, definitely. There was a really funny post I saw on LinkedIn. I can't remember the user, but it was something like, if you've just got a reject. message through at 2.15 p.m. on a Sunday, no it wasn't an AI bot, it was me, between changing my baby's nappy for the fifth time today and trying to catch up with some work. Which is just such a great little snapshot because it absolutely is. It is recruiters reviewing the CVs and getting back to you. That might change in a year or two, we might be sitting down and it might be a completely different story. But yeah, right now, certainly not.
Rob Behar: Yeah. And I think that that's that's another really good point you make about that two fifteen on a Saturday or or or whatever. you know, I've had rejection emails from from applications that I've made that are like two, three o'clock in the morning. now I know, being on the TA side, the the you know, usually well, pretty much every ATS gives you that opportunity to put a delay on there. a lot of candidates don't know that though. So I saw a TikTok I I saw
James Goddard: This is true. Yeah.
Rob Behar: a TikTok a a while ago. And whilst the the the delay, the the email delay is great because in our mind it's like, well, they're not getting a rejection straight away. so we've you know we've looked at it, we've we've reviewed it, we've reviewed everyone and then candidates don't understand that a lot of the time, and I saw as I said, I saw a TikTok of this where people were like, I'm getting, you know, rejections on a Saturday. It has to be AI. and I commented saying, Look, you know, I I I work in recruitment, I work I I work in talent acquisition, and it's nine times out of ten it's it's someone that has still a human that's pushed the reject button, but they've got a two day delay. So they might have, you know, they might have pushed it on a on a Thursday and then you're getting that on a on a Saturday or pushed it on a Friday and you're getting that on a Sunday. So maybe as a fix for that, because I do see a lot of noise on on LinkedIn and and other social platforms about that, I think maybe another a a really, really quick fix is to just do a week. Do a delay of a week. And I know it might seem a week's quite quite a long time. but if you delay a week and you do it on a Monday, they're gonna get that rejection email on the following Monday. Likewise if you do it on a Thursday or Friday, they're gonna get it on that same weekday. so yeah, just a just a kind of maybe a quick fix as opposed to the the two days which which could which could work.
James Goddard: Yeah, definitely. And it's actually ironic because I've done instant rejects before. say for example, it's business hours, I'm looking for a job ads. And I go, well, actually, you know what, I could delay it by two or three days. I'll just give them a reject now. And then I might get a message through saying, I think my application was instantly rejected. Just wanted to make sure you got it. there's a lot of distrust in recruitments
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: and recruitment systems at the moment. And I can re-empathize with why. It kind of sounds like recruitment TikTok's a bit wild as well. So maybe
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: I'll check that out.
Rob Behar: I think look, I think I think that there's there is there's a lot of as I said, there's there's a lot of noise about it. I mean I've had the instant rejections as well. but it's that toss up of, you know, would you rather an instant rejection knowing straight away or would you rather, you know, wa w wait a a little bit for it. You're not gonna please everyone. And you know, we we know that not every single person, it's not a one size fits all, right? so I think that you you as as a TA team need to to do what you think will please the most people, but just understand that, you know, that you're not gonna be able to please everyone. We as a human race, people people like to complain,
James Goddard: All the time.
Rob Behar: right? And we spoke about trust pilots and glassdoor and everything before. but people people do like to complain and they there will they someone will someone somewhere will find something, you know, to to to to complain about. So but I I do think that b to to negate that weekend rejection sending a a rejection email over a weekend. just delay it by a week, and and and and then you'll you know, it'll be on that weekday.
James Goddard: So I think that's some really good practical advice and it's advice that's coming from someone who has worked in TA and has also been looking for a role. So you can see that other side. I think we spoke about that a little bit at the start. kind of understanding where processes break down and where processes can be made better. What do you think some solutions are for busy TA teams that just can't find time to give candidates a good experience? Or is that just a cop out?
Rob Behar: yeah no, I think look, I th I think setting setting realistic expectations with your candidates is is super important. you know, on screening calls I've asked, I've given, know, I've asked the question and I've been asked the question, what's you know, what are the next steps? we are looking to we're looking to review all candidates by the end of the week. We'll start to get interviews booked in by early next week to to to start having interviews by the middle of that week or middle to end of of next week. if there is any delay, I will be in touch. and then just like you know, and then if there is a delay. Be in touch. give them a quick call, drop them a quick email, just to say we've had a delay. there is nothing worse than than sitting there waiting. you know, when when you've been told that someone's gonna get back to you by the end of the week and and and no one does, right? So, you know, preempt that and just I suppose just understand. Try to understand, what it's like to be a candidate, right? you know, w you were a candidate once. so think about, you know, think about how exact exactly. Exactly.
James Goddard: you will be again as well, you
Rob Behar: you know, so so you know, just put your mind put put yourself in in in the candidate's shoes. would you want a phone call if something's being there's there's a hold up in in process? Yes. Okay, so just give them a phone call, drop them a quick phone call, e even a text these days, just just to just to do that. so I I I think that that leads me on to to the next thing is is communicate when there's no news. if someone has had a final stage interview and there's still no, you know, there's still no news yet, just the silence creates more more frustration than than that honest delay. feedback. we spoke about those automated general rejection emails after, you know, a a two-stage interview process and you've got through to final. give meaningful feedback after interviews. It doesn't need to be an essay, just something useful, something specific, and try to, you know, try to do it by phone. you know, try and You you've you've built up a rapport with that candidate. The candidate's built up a rapport with you over the process, right? so you know, do do the decent thing and and I know these conversations are hard, but but you know, we've we've been doing them for years.
James Goddard: Do you know what? I'd also say Rob that my experience of giving people negative feedback, it's not positive because you're giving someone negative feedback, but on the whole, most people are appreciative of it and they take it on boards and
Rob Behar: Hundred percent.
James Goddard: they might challenge you on a couple of places and actually maybe that's good to be challenged, good to communicate that back to the customer and say, you know, listen, are we sure that we're making the right decision here? But I very rarely, Very, very rarely do I call someone. and say, I'm listening, I'm really sorry, they're not making an offer and have that turn into an argument. Most people understand that it's not a personal thing. And actually what hurts people more is ghosting, as you just said, not finding out, not being treated with respect after investing hours and hours or days of their life preparing for something and then being unsuccessful, that happens, that's just business. But it's then how we
Rob Behar: Yeah. Yeah.
James Goddard: deal with that, with empathy.
Rob Behar: We're all
James Goddard: you
Rob Behar: we're all competing for that one job, right? someone's gonna get it, more people are are not gonna get it than than than people that get it. and you know, so so I think as you said, it's just business. People do understand, but I think it's the reasons as to why which makes it so important. so that that candidate that you've built the rapport with, who actually, you know, you could think to yourself, well, you know, they're they're a really nice person. and I've had that feedback. Really, really nice guy in some areas, etc. etc. etc. so you know, you really want to see that person go out and and land something, even if it's not, you know, with you right now, even though it's not the right time right now for you with you guys, then It could be with someone else and you w wanna help them, get there and and make sure that they they land something as soon as possible. So that small piece of feedback or advice or or or whatever can can work absolute wonders. you know, I and then and then you know, I think that the last thing is i the last kind of little takeaway or or bit of I suppose advice is is to i is to treat unsuccessful candidates as as future talent. they might not be right now, but tomorrow they could be the perfect hire. or, you know, or customer, or or or or whatever. So you know, they will remember. yeah, candidates will will remember. I I read a you know I read a quote somewhere that, they're they're probably gonna remember you know, a rejection that they don't really understand or or or being ghosted more than they'll remember an offer call. so you know, so so yeah, just just you know, just just treat those unsuccessful candidates as as as future t as future talent going forward.
James Goddard: Yeah, and they'll be your ambassadors and advocates in the market as well. They'll have friends, they'll be asked repeatedly what they think about different companies.
Rob Behar: Yeah. Yeah.
James Goddard: So, you know, the work that we do with one person, you know, that person then goes out and speaks to many. So it's worth thinking about that from an EVP perspective and
Rob Behar: Hundred percent. Yeah.
James Goddard: employer brand perspective for sure.
Rob Behar: And it's also, and it and it and it also it also could be seen as a a respect thing, you know, they respect you as a as as a business and and and you know and vice versa. And you don't need a huge budget to just to, you know, just to tr you know, treat people with a bit of bit more common decency. you know, it's not I I suppose, you know, a lot of candidates and and what I see from fellow job seekers is is that, you know, a lot of candidates I suppose don't don't want or don't need special treatment, you know, a lot of the time they're just asking for, you know, th it's just basic communication.
James Goddard: Gotcha. Well, that's a great thing to end on, isn't it? Respect, empathy. Yeah. It's a pretty solid point. Yeah.
Rob Behar: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah, and look you know, I I genuinely I I I love working in TA. and you know, I've spent my whole career pretty much doing it. but I don't I don't necessarily think that that the industry's broken. There's some
James Goddard: Hmm.
Rob Behar: absolutely exceptional recruiters out there that are working in you know, that are working in TA. I've worked with them and there's others that I've I've not had the chance to work with. but I I think sometimes the you know we get caught up in in the day, right? We get caught up in in processes, we get caught up in systems, you know, metrics, filling filling vacancies that sometimes, you know, sometimes we can we can just forget those small things that really help the human on the other side. of of of every application. you know, for us it's it's a hundred yeah, it could be a hundred applications that that, you know, that we're that we're reviewing. but that candidate is you know really, really hoping that they get an offer. you know, so so yeah. So I think, if we remember to just communicate a little bit better, hold ourselves accountable. you know, it it will make a it'll make a huge, huge difference and we won't get tarnished with that horrible recruiter stick that a lot of people on on LinkedIn love to love to tarnish us with, right? So you know, I don't
James Goddard: Yeah.
Rob Behar: think I don't think recruitment necessarily needs to be reinvented. we just need to sometimes sometimes just get back to basics and and and get those right.
James Goddard: Yeah, definitely. Well, Rob, I really enjoyed our conversation today and best of luck in your job search. sounds like any organization
Rob Behar: Thank you.
James Goddard: would be lucky to have you, based on
Rob Behar: Thank you.
James Goddard: your experiences and some of the things that you can bring to the table. And yeah, thank you very much for your time.
Rob Behar: No, thank you very much for having me. I've really also really, really enjoyed it.
James Goddard: Awesome well then yeah I'll
Rob Behar: Perfect.
James Goddard: catch you later.
Rob Behar: Perfect. Thanks, James.
James Goddard: Thank you. Bye bye.
Rob Behar: Bye.
Rob Behar: Hello, James. Nice to nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
James Goddard: No worries. Thank you very much for coming. Would you like to do a short introduction about yourself?
Rob Behar: Course. I'm Rob Bihar. been in recruitment around 12 years now, TA for the majority of that, round about a decade. worked at a few startups, scale-ups and and some other large household names. also had a a short stint in in the civil service as well. always been super passionate about recruitment and the impact of a good TA function and how how that can have a good impact on the business. I am currently back on the the job market myself. and ultimately it's been a bit of an eye opener. you know, I've always kind of prided myself on being able to find something quickly, but I've experienced some really, really good recruitment processes, but also experienced some things that have made me think, you know, come on. We we need we as TA need to be doing a bit better. so yeah, ultimately that's that's what I I'd love to have a chat with you about today, really. you know, not necessarily what's what's wrong with recruitment, but but really what we can be doing better.
James Goddard: Yeah, it's an interesting perspective to have because when you're in TA, you're not necessarily feeling, thinking about the experience of people applying to jobs, you're processing those applications. So to be
Rob Behar: Mm. Yeah.
James Goddard: on the other side of that and actually kind of see what it's like and experience the processes, it gives you a kind of a unique perspective.
Rob Behar: Yeah, it does. And and and I suppose it gives you that fuel for when you do go into something new. w when you do go into something new, you know what not to do, as well and and and what you
James Goddard: That helps you.
Rob Behar: what what you could potentially change and it's just I suppose it gives you that ammo going into a going into a new role.
James Goddard: Yeah, for sure. You go in there with a mission, you know what works or what you've seen and what you'd like to change.
Rob Behar: Yeah. And some things are really quick fixes as well, that make a real big impact. So, by being able to do that, you're showing the you're showing the impact that you can make in a in a very short period of time.
James Goddard: Yeah, I suppose before we start talking about improving candidate experience, it's probably worth talking a little bit about the current state of the TA job market, because it's a bit of a strange place,
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: which you're no doubt experiencing. I'm experiencing on the other side, suppose, recruiting for TAs. So, I mean, how have you found it?
Rob Behar: tough. Tough. I I think that it's it's an interesting time. I suppose, you know, you had the steady flow of TA jobs when TA was becoming more and more popular within businesses. you know, outside of the the typical we'll we'll farm everything out to an agency. Actually, you know what? We'll we wanna bring in some in you know, our own in-house teams. And I noticed that. during my during my agency days. then we had the the real boom over COVID, which was, you know, TA people getting approached two, three, four times a day, right? For for for for various roles and and you know, salaries were through the roof and you know, I've never seen a market like it. it was just it was just so buoyant. and a great time to be in in TA. And I think that since since then, it's just complete steadily dropped off. since probably in the last I'd say probably the last four, four, five years or so. it's it's just really, really dropped off. And it's I think that the reasons for that are the fine, you know, not enough jobs around TA teams are leaner. so gone are the days where you're gonna have four, five, six TA people in a team. you know, might have one person doing absolutely everything, you might have a TA manager and a TA partner, you might have a couple of TA partners and a TA manager, but you know, you you're you're you're usually having fairly lean teams. So unless one of those people leaves, or a a business gets a load of investment and they want to, they they they want to expand the team, it there's not that those vacancies aren't going to be there. I've also there's also the the usual competition of agency candidates going into wanting to move internally. so which has always been the case. so you've got, you know, agency people wanting to move in-house. You've got seasoned in house recruiters fighting for for one potential job plus also you've got people that you know like myself who have been the who've been made redundant and then immediately available looking looking for a role as well. So yeah it's it's super competitive. But there is a market, right? There are there are roles out there. It's just really, really, really competitive at the moment.
James Goddard: Yeah, definitely. Definitely agree with a number of your thoughts there. There's certainly a market. I think the market is becoming more driven by FTC and day rate contracts. Certainly seen that.
Rob Behar: I'd agree with that.
James Goddard: And then there's a lack of true head of TA roles. think talking about that period of time, that boom periods, which a lot of people call post COVID boom in the recruitment market, kind of around 2021 to 2023. It felt like everyone in the whole world was hiring for TA and actually they couldn't hire enough TA. So, you you have this really competitive market, but it was all candidate led. So it was very competitive for employers to find good TA and get have TA stay and then also have enough TA. And now it's flipped and you've got a market with a lot of people looking and it's a bit of an employer's market, you know, and there are some employees that do very well with that, they still treat people well and they've made sure the salaries are staying up and stuff. I think then there's also a little bit of compression on salaries in certain areas as well because people know that they can maybe get away with offering slightly less or not increasing the salaries year on year. So I think it's turned into more of an employer's market in that respect. But there is definitely a market.
Rob Behar: Yeah, I I'd I'd I'd agree on that as well. in terms of salaries, I am finding that, you know, salaries are notoriously quite quite low. you know, I I've seen TA lead roles at thirty five K managing three people, you know, it's it's it's nuts. It's nuts.
James Goddard: That's bonkers, isn't it? That's absolutely bonkers. Yeah.
Rob Behar: you know, and I I get it, you know, salaries in the north sometimes tend to be tend to be slightly lower than London, but I'm based in Manchester and it's not too it's not too dissimilar to to to London with with most industries. So I don't know why, you know, my I mean my opinion is that TA is probably one of the most important departments within within a business. so you know without TA you're not getting the right people in for all the other departments that are that that are gonna bring revenue in. So so there I I I feel like within a lot of businesses that you know that PA sometimes is seen as a bit of a cost, as opposed to that strategic function. some businesses, as you said, some businesses do it really, really well. but but some see it more of a cost as a as opposed to a a strategic function. So that when hiring slows down, you know, TA is obviously one of those first functions out the door. an up up for redundancy. but then when hiring picks back up again, you know, they suddenly start panicking and they're like, well, we need we need to hire recruiters again. So you know, I think that where a lot of businesses see recruitment or TA or or or whatever you want to call it is that they're just filling jobs. Whereas actually
James Goddard: Hmm.
Rob Behar: we're we we we do, you know, a lot more than that. We're we're really influencing, our our our workforce planning, improving those pr hiring processes, challenging stakeholders and and and ultimately, you know, helping the business make those better hiring decisions as opposed to just filling filling vacancies.
James Goddard: Yeah, I think those businesses have probably never seen TA done well. If you bring a TA in and they're told to just do operational stuff, then that's what they'll do, I suppose, because that's their remit. And they will just fill jobs and take orders, and they might not be able to push back and manage stakeholders and do that strategic transformation stuff that elevates TA as a function. And yeah, absolutely. You you talk to business owners and they see the recruitment function as a cost center because it costs the business money to have someone there. And I think they miss a trick with not understanding how much it saves the business because if a business is going through growth, then they're going to have to make the recruitment somehow. And just because agency costs are, you know, fixed costs that aren't in the payroll every month, doesn't mean that they don't exist, know, agency fees still come through when someone gets placed. And, know, that can often, if you count them all up, be more than a TA, you know, over the space of a year, but much more than a TA. And then also in terms of workforce planning and actually bringing the best people on. Right. So, you know, if you're expanding your organization, you want to hire the best in class or the best that you can you can bring on or you can possibly bring on. So. TTA raises the bar in that respect as well. So much misunderstood
Rob Behar: completely, yeah.
James Goddard: function, I think. And yeah.
Rob Behar: Yeah, I completely agree. But look, if if you're I I I think a lot of you know, a lot of the time, if you know, if if you are if a business is looking at at TA as that cost center, you're probably not utilising the skill set that your TA department really have.
James Goddard: Yeah, that's very true as well. I think also you see a lot more TA learn and pick up other skills now. So. If you're in a small company, I've noticed that TA is often going into HR. know, it's your cat. TA and HR business partners. There'll be elements of ops. I've seen a lot of fast growing startups. TA will be adjacent to people like chief of staff and that type of position. So, it's a multi-skilled role for sure. And it's about utilizing it to get the best out of it for the business.
Rob Behar: No, I completely agree with you.
James Goddard: Yeah. Okay. So I suppose in your job search, Rob, you've probably seen good candidate experience and bad candidate experience. I mean, what would you list as an example of good candidate experience?
Rob Behar: really good question. I think I think the candidate experience goes beyond just a a fancy careers page, right? Or great benefits or an easy to fill application form. I think the really good candidate experience is providing a candidate with all the information that they need in order to first want you know, want to go forward for for the role further. but also that they've got all the information that they need to be able to prepare. they've got all the information in terms of right, okay, once they've had their interview, what are the next steps? if there's if there's no news regarding those next steps, okay, fine, let's touch base. in a in in a day or so, keep know keeping those candidates updated all the way throughout the process, all the way through to offer and and and beyond or rejection and and beyond as well. I think you know having that constant communication throughout the process with with your candidates is the key to, is is the key to to really having a a good good candidate experience beyond the I suppose the the E VP recruitment marketing work that that that you do.
James Goddard: Yeah, I think it's I've seen this come and go. So candidate experience is always the central point of conversations when it's hard to find candidates.
Rob Behar: Mm.
James Goddard: So you're talking about, you know, increasing candidate experience, making the process better, making sure that we can reuse candidates if they've been unsuccessful for one vacancy. Can they be good for another vacancy in the future? Making sure that employer brand is is solid. I think When I see candidate experience slip off the agenda is when people see there as being many more candidates than jobs. So it's kind of like an order filling thing. So people just go, we'll just stick a job ad out. It'll get two to 300 applicants and then we'll fill that role because it's not particularly hard to fill. And we'll provide an experience, but it's not something that we're really that fussed about. It's more about kind of... a minimum bar, a minimum effort. So
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: not kind of raising expectations or raising the bar, if that makes sense.
Rob Behar: Yeah, yeah. I think that there is a lot of that and look, we we see that I see on LinkedIn, you know, when I'm looking at when I'm looking at jobs on on LinkedIn to apply for, you know, people that they're gonna get, especially in today's TA job market, you know, where you've as I mentioned before, where you've got, you know, these three different categories of candidates all coming together to apply for for for one position. I've seen something posted half an hour ago with, you know, over over a hundred applicants. Now is that
James Goddard: Wow.
Rob Behar: because it's is that because it's easy apply, or and people just clicking on it, or are people clicking apply and it takes them to the ATS and maybe they're not applying from there, but LinkedIn still shows, you know, LinkedIn LinkedIn still shows that. now it's gonna overwhelm T the the current TA teams that that are there to sift through all of that. but then obviously you've got, you know, you've you you've still got to get back to those people and create that, you know, that experience, whether they're good for the role or not, they could be good for something else, or they could end up, you know, they could end up coming back to you in a few years' time once they've got a bit more experience in certain areas. And by not providing why by providing a good experience, they're they're going to want to work for you again. but by not providing a a good experience, you know, they're they're gonna they're gonna turn around and say, Well, I I I don't wanna work for that company because I don't know they they either they ghosted me or I didn't get feedback after my interview, after chasing, etc.
James Goddard: Yeah, and actually you'll speak to candidates and they'll have interviewed with the company one, two years ago, but if the company did it right, they'll be really happy to interview again. They'll talk positively about the experience. They'll talk positively to their friends about the experience. So it carries and people do remember, you know, they remember how they were treated when they, you know, when they needed it effectively.
Rob Behar: Yeah. Well it's it's like a trust pilot or or a or or any of those kind of review sites, right? most of you know, you go you book a hotel and you go on TripAdvisor, right? You're gonna see quite a lot of negative reviews. The reason why you're gonna see those negative a lot of those negative reviews are because people are have got those negative experiences in their head and they just wanna rant about it. Nine times out of ten, the positive experiences are usually kept to yourself or spoken to, you know, a few close friends or family. I'd really recommend going to this place. And it's I I it's the same with Glassdoor as well. You know, that's why you see so many negative reviews about any business really on on Glassdoor, because it's just full of people that have had a bad experience either working or interviewing or or anything like that. So I a hundred percent agree with you, you know, by giving someone a good experience, you wanna get you're you're you're blocking the that chance for them to to then go and write, you know, a a a bad review or go and tell
James Goddard: That bad review. Yeah.
Rob Behar: or go and tell ten people or anything like that. but I mean some of the you know some of some of the best experiences I've had particularly whilst I'm I'm looking, you know, have have resulted in in a a a rejection. But the communication was great. The feedback given was detailed. I understood why that decision was was was made. and ultimately, you know, ended up coming away from that, really respecting the business and the head of TA who who interviewed me and wanting to go away, improve on those areas, and then I'd love to get the chance to to go and interview there there again in the future at some point.
James Goddard: Yeah, and I think that kind of learning opportunity for candidates post interview is key. So, you know, it's always disappointing if you've not been selected, but if you feel like you can take something forwards from that into your next interview, that's a great gift for a company to give someone if they can't give them a job, you know, that kind of that opportunity to kind of maybe make sure that they make the next interview.
Rob Behar: Yeah, yeah, hundred percent. a hundred percent. And you know, I I think I've also had after going through, you know, two, three interview processes, well not processes, but after going through interviews, you know, I've I've ended up just getting a generic email. and you know, I think that where where we as T and and it's happening more often than not. But where we as TA probably need to do slightly better in that is that, you know, if there is there must be a certain reason as to why. Don't just heavily rely on I know we're busy, but don't just rely on a click and a and a standard rejections emblem once someone has you know once someone has interviewed. And I think that there there is there there you know is potentially a lot of that where where we we we build out the ATSs with lots of templates.
James Goddard: Yeah.
Rob Behar: but actually, you know what? A couple of a couple of minutes just to just to write a line of this is this is what this is the re yeah, this is our decision. This is the reason. Thank you very much. And opposed to we've moved forward with more suitable candidates.
James Goddard: Yeah, I assume that language can be a little bit robotic, I suppose that lacks empathy.
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: You know, the same time, I suppose it's, it's that cost benefit analysis in the TA team to say, okay, we've got three people, we've got, you know, each person's got 10, 15 live briefs open. We're behind our target in terms of hiring, but we're going to invest. an X amount of hours per week in feedback. Now I'm not saying that they shouldn't do that. I think we both agree that candidate feedback is really important for all the reasons you just described. And also I think, you know, it's just a sign of respect to people that are applying to jobs, just beyond the business reasons. But it can sometimes be hard to justify it. And sometimes I think it's maybe not even something that businesses consciously do. So do businesses consciously sit down and go, do you know what, we're going to make the candidate experience really poor today? you know, no, no, they
Rob Behar: Of course not.
James Goddard: don't. Definitely not. do they say, do you know what, we're not going to feed back to any candidate. So we're not going to feed back to candidates post-interview. They definitely don't do that either. I think it's, it's where it slips through the gaps. it's maybe the lack of, Processes in the business to catch it And it's not a metric is it in most organizations when actually maybe it should be
Rob Behar: Yeah, I agree. and look, I I I'm not suggesting that that I I know that everyone's swamp for time, right? so, you know, I'm I'm not I'm not suggesting that every recruiter should spend half an hour writing detailed feedback on, you know, for for every unsuccessful applicant. But I think that especially when someone's had, you know, got got all the way through to final, there might there might it might just be the most minuscule thing that someone did slightly better. you know, i i just tell them. you know, you interviewed really, really well. Actually, to be honest with you, we couldn't really fault you. It was just the fact that someone, you know, had more relevant experience in in this or spoke about this in a bit more detail or or or whatever. just so that just so you know the the the candidate understands, you know, your reasoning and how you how you came to that decision, you know, one or two lines or even a sentence, just to explain that. and I think that that that that would make a huge difference to people's perceptions of of of you know of of how how that's gone.
James Goddard: Yeah, absolutely. It dispels the idea that everything's being screened by AI as well. And AI is the only people that you have dialogue in. But we'll go into that in too much depth because it's been discussed.
Rob Behar: Yeah. Yeah, no, no, but there is, you know, that there there's a lot of noise around, you know, there's a lot of noise around people being screened out of of applic you know from applications or or whatever, from AI. any organisation that I've worked in, I I have always reviewed every even if I've got a hundred applicants for, for a for a singular role, I am there as a human looking through all of those. So there is a lot of
James Goddard: Yeah, yeah.
Rob Behar: noise about ATSs and AI in ATSs, et cetera. but but yeah, as I said, it's it it is nine times out of ten it is it is a human on the other end.
James Goddard: Yeah, absolutely. So you'll have ATSs help you preface CVs, right? So you'll have the ATS digest it and then it'll pull out key information. Sometimes it will score it. LinkedIn hiring assist does kind of the same thing. It's kind of borrowing on the functionality that ATSs have had for a long time. But it won't screen out calendars for you and you'd be... yeah, you'd be bonkers as a recruiter to just lean on the AI for CV screening because it's just not good enough at the moment. Absolutely not, yeah.
Rob Behar: Do we trust AI completely? And and that's the thing. Yeah, exactly. so it it's as I said, it's great that it can score. it's great that it could give you a snapshot of of a C V. Brilliant. So, you know, you're not there scrolling through through a C E V. You've got you've got the s snapshot and and you've got the score, but actually where where you can work Together with the AI is that You can actually correct the AI if if you feel that actually it's that C V is a an eighty five instead of an eighty three. you know, why do you think that? And then put it back into it and then and then hopefully the AI can then score better, you know, each time. And and and
James Goddard: Yeah, it trains it.
Rob Behar: exactly. So so, you know, I th I still think that that that human human visual on the C V is is still super important. And then let's don't forget that it's always the human pressing that reject or or progress button anyway.
James Goddard: Yeah, definitely. There was a really funny post I saw on LinkedIn. I can't remember the user, but it was something like, if you've just got a reject. message through at 2.15 p.m. on a Sunday, no it wasn't an AI bot, it was me, between changing my baby's nappy for the fifth time today and trying to catch up with some work. Which is just such a great little snapshot because it absolutely is. It is recruiters reviewing the CVs and getting back to you. That might change in a year or two, we might be sitting down and it might be a completely different story. But yeah, right now, certainly not.
Rob Behar: Yeah. And I think that that's that's another really good point you make about that two fifteen on a Saturday or or or whatever. you know, I've had rejection emails from from applications that I've made that are like two, three o'clock in the morning. now I know, being on the TA side, the the you know, usually well, pretty much every ATS gives you that opportunity to put a delay on there. a lot of candidates don't know that though. So I saw a TikTok I I saw
James Goddard: This is true. Yeah.
Rob Behar: a TikTok a a while ago. And whilst the the the delay, the the email delay is great because in our mind it's like, well, they're not getting a rejection straight away. so we've you know we've looked at it, we've we've reviewed it, we've reviewed everyone and then candidates don't understand that a lot of the time, and I saw as I said, I saw a TikTok of this where people were like, I'm getting, you know, rejections on a Saturday. It has to be AI. and I commented saying, Look, you know, I I I work in recruitment, I work I I work in talent acquisition, and it's nine times out of ten it's it's someone that has still a human that's pushed the reject button, but they've got a two day delay. So they might have, you know, they might have pushed it on a on a Thursday and then you're getting that on a on a Saturday or pushed it on a Friday and you're getting that on a Sunday. So maybe as a fix for that, because I do see a lot of noise on on LinkedIn and and other social platforms about that, I think maybe another a a really, really quick fix is to just do a week. Do a delay of a week. And I know it might seem a week's quite quite a long time. but if you delay a week and you do it on a Monday, they're gonna get that rejection email on the following Monday. Likewise if you do it on a Thursday or Friday, they're gonna get it on that same weekday. so yeah, just a just a kind of maybe a quick fix as opposed to the the two days which which could which could work.
James Goddard: Yeah, definitely. And it's actually ironic because I've done instant rejects before. say for example, it's business hours, I'm looking for a job ads. And I go, well, actually, you know what, I could delay it by two or three days. I'll just give them a reject now. And then I might get a message through saying, I think my application was instantly rejected. Just wanted to make sure you got it. there's a lot of distrust in recruitments
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: and recruitment systems at the moment. And I can re-empathize with why. It kind of sounds like recruitment TikTok's a bit wild as well. So maybe
Rob Behar: Yeah.
James Goddard: I'll check that out.
Rob Behar: I think look, I think I think that there's there is there's a lot of as I said, there's there's a lot of noise about it. I mean I've had the instant rejections as well. but it's that toss up of, you know, would you rather an instant rejection knowing straight away or would you rather, you know, wa w wait a a little bit for it. You're not gonna please everyone. And you know, we we know that not every single person, it's not a one size fits all, right? so I think that you you as as a TA team need to to do what you think will please the most people, but just understand that, you know, that you're not gonna be able to please everyone. We as a human race, people people like to complain,
James Goddard: All the time.
Rob Behar: right? And we spoke about trust pilots and glassdoor and everything before. but people people do like to complain and they there will they someone will someone somewhere will find something, you know, to to to to complain about. So but I I do think that b to to negate that weekend rejection sending a a rejection email over a weekend. just delay it by a week, and and and and then you'll you know, it'll be on that weekday.
James Goddard: So I think that's some really good practical advice and it's advice that's coming from someone who has worked in TA and has also been looking for a role. So you can see that other side. I think we spoke about that a little bit at the start. kind of understanding where processes break down and where processes can be made better. What do you think some solutions are for busy TA teams that just can't find time to give candidates a good experience? Or is that just a cop out?
Rob Behar: yeah no, I think look, I th I think setting setting realistic expectations with your candidates is is super important. you know, on screening calls I've asked, I've given, know, I've asked the question and I've been asked the question, what's you know, what are the next steps? we are looking to we're looking to review all candidates by the end of the week. We'll start to get interviews booked in by early next week to to to start having interviews by the middle of that week or middle to end of of next week. if there is any delay, I will be in touch. and then just like you know, and then if there is a delay. Be in touch. give them a quick call, drop them a quick email, just to say we've had a delay. there is nothing worse than than sitting there waiting. you know, when when you've been told that someone's gonna get back to you by the end of the week and and and no one does, right? So, you know, preempt that and just I suppose just understand. Try to understand, what it's like to be a candidate, right? you know, w you were a candidate once. so think about, you know, think about how exact exactly. Exactly.
James Goddard: you will be again as well, you
Rob Behar: you know, so so you know, just put your mind put put yourself in in in the candidate's shoes. would you want a phone call if something's being there's there's a hold up in in process? Yes. Okay, so just give them a phone call, drop them a quick phone call, e even a text these days, just just to just to do that. so I I I think that that leads me on to to the next thing is is communicate when there's no news. if someone has had a final stage interview and there's still no, you know, there's still no news yet, just the silence creates more more frustration than than that honest delay. feedback. we spoke about those automated general rejection emails after, you know, a a two-stage interview process and you've got through to final. give meaningful feedback after interviews. It doesn't need to be an essay, just something useful, something specific, and try to, you know, try to do it by phone. you know, try and You you've you've built up a rapport with that candidate. The candidate's built up a rapport with you over the process, right? so you know, do do the decent thing and and I know these conversations are hard, but but you know, we've we've been doing them for years.
James Goddard: Do you know what? I'd also say Rob that my experience of giving people negative feedback, it's not positive because you're giving someone negative feedback, but on the whole, most people are appreciative of it and they take it on boards and
Rob Behar: Hundred percent.
James Goddard: they might challenge you on a couple of places and actually maybe that's good to be challenged, good to communicate that back to the customer and say, you know, listen, are we sure that we're making the right decision here? But I very rarely, Very, very rarely do I call someone. and say, I'm listening, I'm really sorry, they're not making an offer and have that turn into an argument. Most people understand that it's not a personal thing. And actually what hurts people more is ghosting, as you just said, not finding out, not being treated with respect after investing hours and hours or days of their life preparing for something and then being unsuccessful, that happens, that's just business. But it's then how we
Rob Behar: Yeah. Yeah.
James Goddard: deal with that, with empathy.
Rob Behar: We're all
James Goddard: you
Rob Behar: we're all competing for that one job, right? someone's gonna get it, more people are are not gonna get it than than than people that get it. and you know, so so I think as you said, it's just business. People do understand, but I think it's the reasons as to why which makes it so important. so that that candidate that you've built the rapport with, who actually, you know, you could think to yourself, well, you know, they're they're a really nice person. and I've had that feedback. Really, really nice guy in some areas, etc. etc. etc. so you know, you really want to see that person go out and and land something, even if it's not, you know, with you right now, even though it's not the right time right now for you with you guys, then It could be with someone else and you w wanna help them, get there and and make sure that they they land something as soon as possible. So that small piece of feedback or advice or or or whatever can can work absolute wonders. you know, I and then and then you know, I think that the last thing is i the last kind of little takeaway or or bit of I suppose advice is is to i is to treat unsuccessful candidates as as future talent. they might not be right now, but tomorrow they could be the perfect hire. or, you know, or customer, or or or or whatever. So you know, they will remember. yeah, candidates will will remember. I I read a you know I read a quote somewhere that, they're they're probably gonna remember you know, a rejection that they don't really understand or or or being ghosted more than they'll remember an offer call. so you know, so so yeah, just just you know, just just treat those unsuccessful candidates as as as future t as future talent going forward.
James Goddard: Yeah, and they'll be your ambassadors and advocates in the market as well. They'll have friends, they'll be asked repeatedly what they think about different companies.
Rob Behar: Yeah. Yeah.
James Goddard: So, you know, the work that we do with one person, you know, that person then goes out and speaks to many. So it's worth thinking about that from an EVP perspective and
Rob Behar: Hundred percent. Yeah.
James Goddard: employer brand perspective for sure.
Rob Behar: And it's also, and it and it and it also it also could be seen as a a respect thing, you know, they respect you as a as as a business and and and you know and vice versa. And you don't need a huge budget to just to, you know, just to tr you know, treat people with a bit of bit more common decency. you know, it's not I I suppose, you know, a lot of candidates and and what I see from fellow job seekers is is that, you know, a lot of candidates I suppose don't don't want or don't need special treatment, you know, a lot of the time they're just asking for, you know, th it's just basic communication.
James Goddard: Gotcha. Well, that's a great thing to end on, isn't it? Respect, empathy. Yeah. It's a pretty solid point. Yeah.
Rob Behar: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah, and look you know, I I genuinely I I I love working in TA. and you know, I've spent my whole career pretty much doing it. but I don't I don't necessarily think that that the industry's broken. There's some
James Goddard: Hmm.
Rob Behar: absolutely exceptional recruiters out there that are working in you know, that are working in TA. I've worked with them and there's others that I've I've not had the chance to work with. but I I think sometimes the you know we get caught up in in the day, right? We get caught up in in processes, we get caught up in systems, you know, metrics, filling filling vacancies that sometimes, you know, sometimes we can we can just forget those small things that really help the human on the other side. of of of every application. you know, for us it's it's a hundred yeah, it could be a hundred applications that that, you know, that we're that we're reviewing. but that candidate is you know really, really hoping that they get an offer. you know, so so yeah. So I think, if we remember to just communicate a little bit better, hold ourselves accountable. you know, it it will make a it'll make a huge, huge difference and we won't get tarnished with that horrible recruiter stick that a lot of people on on LinkedIn love to love to tarnish us with, right? So you know, I don't
James Goddard: Yeah.
Rob Behar: think I don't think recruitment necessarily needs to be reinvented. we just need to sometimes sometimes just get back to basics and and and get those right.
James Goddard: Yeah, definitely. Well, Rob, I really enjoyed our conversation today and best of luck in your job search. sounds like any organization
Rob Behar: Thank you.
James Goddard: would be lucky to have you, based on
Rob Behar: Thank you.
James Goddard: your experiences and some of the things that you can bring to the table. And yeah, thank you very much for your time.
Rob Behar: No, thank you very much for having me. I've really also really, really enjoyed it.
James Goddard: Awesome well then yeah I'll
Rob Behar: Perfect.
James Goddard: catch you later.
Rob Behar: Perfect. Thanks, James.
James Goddard: Thank you. Bye bye.
Rob Behar: Bye.
