Beyond Neurotype- Where Does Attachment Strategy fit? with Cyd & Dr. Geoff Holsclaw

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Welcome to the Neurodiverse Christian Couples Podcast, a podcast with
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Mental Health News Radio, hosted by Reverend Dan and Dr.
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Stephanie Holmes. Neurodiverse Christian Couples Podcast selects guests that are
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professionals in the field of autism or individuals who want
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to share their journey from a Christian neurodiverse couples experience.
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The purpose is to encourage, inspire, and remind you that
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in Christ there is hope for the future.
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Our focus?
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To educate and equip you through effective strategies that will
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help energized couples and those professionals who work with neurodiverse
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Christian couples. Brought to you by the Autism Spectrum Resources
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for Marriage and Family, LLC. Now here are your hosts,
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Dan and Stephanie Holmes.
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Welcome back to Neurodiverse Christian Couples. I'm Stephanie.
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I'm Dan.
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And we're going to jump right into it today because
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we have limited time and we want to talk as
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much as we can with our guests. Jeff and Sid Holzclaw,
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we have had them on the show before, but let
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me remind you who they are just in case. And
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if you're watching it, you'll see the book I'm reading
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it from. Sid and Jeff Holzclaw are co-authors of Does
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God Really Like Me, which Dan did an interview with
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on Just the Guys. Co-directors of the Doctor of Ministry
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and Spiritual Formation and Relational Neuroscience at Western Theological Seminary.
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They are the co-founders of the Center for Embodied Faith,
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and there's usually an awesome summit hopefully we'll talk about.
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Co-host to Attaching to God podcast, Sid is a coach, pastor,
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spiritual director, integrating embodied neuroscience and spiritual practices. Dr. Jeff
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Holzclaw is a pastor, visiting professor of theology at Western
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Theological Seminary, and we are going to be talking about
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landscapes of the soul today about attachment. So thank you
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guys for coming back on the show.
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Yeah, it's good to be back. Thanks for asking us.
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All right. So we've had you on before to kind
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of talk about the basics of attachment and I'll stick
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that link of other shows we've done with you in there.
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So what I'd really like to talk to you guys
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about having you back on is kind of coming through
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kind of secular psychology. You kind of learned that like
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attachment is a fixed thing. You had this thing happen
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to you when you were growing up. People didn't respond
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to you. You are avoidant. You are anxious. You are disorganized.
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And you will approach all of your relationships like that hither, tither,
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and yon, deal with it. It's kind of where you
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get it. And coming across neurotheology and your materials is like, wait,
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you can heal from this. You can attach through Jesus.
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You can heal from that and learn different attachment styles.
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So I want to kind of go into that, whichever
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one of you wants to start us off on. How
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do we get into these attachment styles that are not secure,
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that are not healthy?
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Well, first of all, I mean, I agree with you, right?
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That's what the literature says. And when I first came
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across learning about attachment, it felt really hopeless to me
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because of that, of sort of like, this is how
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you're broken and that's just how it's.
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Always going to be.
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But we like to use the word attachment strategies instead
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of attachment styles because that's really how we acquire them.
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That's how we develop them is because they are strategies
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that we use, especially in our early years, but we
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can often shift them in our later years as well.
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But we use them in our early years growing up
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in our families of origin as strategies to get what
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we need to survive those environments. And so that's how
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we get these attachment strategies is they become, you know,
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we're not born with fully formed nervous systems. So our
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nervous systems are still growing and shaping as we're growing up.
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And as we are sort of running experiments, according to
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the environment that we're in, we're collecting data back from
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what the people around us, how they're caring about us,
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how they're interacting with us. how they respond to when
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we ask for help, when we cry or when we
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need something. And as we collect all of that data,
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we're learning, you know, this is what's true about the world.
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This is what's true about me. This is what's true
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about other people.
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And that all shapes and forms as part of our
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growing nervous system. And so that's how we learn what's safe,
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what's dangerous, what looks like an opportunity to connect with someone,
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what looks like a signal to stay away. And out
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of that is where these sort of default strategies become
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sort of something we do automatically as we go through life.
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And that's where we get that attachment strategy is that
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sort of collection of the data that we've collected in
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our early years based on all those little experiments. And
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that's what we end up, if we don't actually take
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some time to explore that, it is something we continue
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to live into for the rest of our lives. But
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like the reason that we wrote the book and the
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things that I find is so hopeful is that when
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you do take the time to really try to explore
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and investigate what are the strategies that I'm living from,
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when you can actually develop awareness of those and get
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curious about those, you can actually shift your strategies, meaning
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your attachment strategies can shift. And so it's not something
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you have to continue to live into for the rest
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of your life.
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I really love the word strategy too, because I'm going
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to ask you to give us like the abbreviated version, Jeff,
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of what the four are. And I, with my five-year-old skills,
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have drawn them out as you talk about them. But
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help us understand that strategy of the four landscapes. Give
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us a quick view of that so we can talk
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about how to heal and get from those. But my
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drawing is awful. But our pastor said something the other
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day that really stuck with me. he is the way maker,
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but on the way he's making me. And so whatever
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strategy we're in, if we're trying to get the secure
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and he's the way maker, we're being made along the way.
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And so that's, that's going to stick with me. I
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think to help all of us that it is a
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journey from a strategy to a next, but when you
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kind of tell the listener, if they've not read the book, Jeff,
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a little bit about each strategy or landscape.
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Yes.
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All right.
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I was just taking a note on that. We'll definitely
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have to get back to the way maker who's making
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us on the way. I love that. Um, so if
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we were to think of like a piece of graph paper, uh,
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and then there's like a vertical line, we're going to
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make some quadrants, you know, on the vertical line is
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something like prioritizing intimacy. And on a horizontal line, you
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have something like prioritizing or being skilled at independence. Uh,
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and so, uh, Like to the top of the page
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would be high skills, high competency, high desire for intimacy.
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And then over to, you know, since we're in the
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Western world and we read from left to right. So
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going over to the right would be kind of high intimacy.
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And that would kind of create this four different places
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as they intersect in the middle. And the place of
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high intimacy and the high skills of independence where they
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both develop together as God intended would be the pasture.
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And that is a secure attachment. There we go, as
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the picture shows. So that would be secure attachment. And
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that develops when early in childhood, but all throughout as
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you develop, you have caregivers who are sensitive and attuned
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to your needs, not just your physical needs, but also
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your social emotional needs. who then respond in an appropriate
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and a timely manner. Now, of course, you're not just
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giving kids what they want all the time. Sometimes the
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best thing for them is to brush their teeth and
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go to bed rather than just stay up and eat candy.
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But they're giving them a structure, giving them appropriate responses,
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and then also being attuned to their emotional life. And
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that starts developing this internal sense of, oh, I can
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be near people, but I can also be myself. I
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can pursue intimacy with others but that's not at the
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expense of my independence and the ability to exercise my
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own agency in the world. And so that's really how
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God intended it. But of course, for environmental reasons, sometimes
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for maybe some like genetic or some other kind of
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developmental reasons, we kind of have other areas where we go,
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where we tend to prioritize either intimacy or independence. So
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The caregiving environment where you have inconsistent caretakers who sometimes
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are very attuned to your social and emotional needs and
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your physical well-being and flourishing you, but then sometimes they aren't.
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Sometimes they seem like they're missing or they kind of
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disappear or they kind of reject you for reasons you
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don't understand. There's really this kind of hesitancy. There's a
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maybe people can connect, but maybe they won't. And sometimes
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that could just be because of illness or some sort
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of tragedy or And maybe it's just a perennial kind
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of way that your caregiver is with you. But that
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creates what the literature would call the anxious attachment or
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what we call the jungle where you prioritize your relationships.
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You're hypervigilant about how are people doing? Is this a
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good moment to interrupt? Is this a good time to
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ask for what I need? How can I really help
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out so that people feel good? Because when people feel good,
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then I feel good, right? Everything's fine. And so it's
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very much focused on intimacy. And chronically, over the long term,
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that kind of reduces people's sense of independence. It reduces
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their sense of, I can do things on my own.
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I can solve my own problems. I have kind of
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what it takes to get through a hard time. And
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so that kind of shrinks. And so that would be
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the jungle. The opposite kind of response is to prioritize
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independence at the expense of intimacy. And usually that happens,
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and there's all sorts of longitudinal studies kind of research
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and databases. I just go over like 20 years, like
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following children all throughout this, right? So this is based
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in the science, but there's what would be like rejecting
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or kind of social and emotional abandonment of parents. So
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the caregivers, maybe they took care of you physically or they,
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you know, cared for you kind of in the most
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basic ways, but the kind of Listening to your heart
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and being able to share yourself and giving and receiving
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the social emotional information was often either ignored or it
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was rejected or sometimes it was punished to kind of
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share kind of those things. And so the idea of
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being vulnerable in front of others kind of shrinks and disappears.
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And then you kind of internalize what we call the
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desert is this place where over time you don't really
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know the deep kind of inner life that you have, social, emotional,
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and And that rebounds into a sense of not always
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being able to connect with others. So that would be
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the desert. And the fourth one would be a caregiving environment,
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which we call the war zone, where the people who
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are supposed to help you, you also have a sense
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that they're the ones that harm you, either through neglect,
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but maybe through abuse of some sort of social, emotional
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or physical or something like that. And so there's really
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this kind of, you want to go to people because when,
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especially when you're little, you can't, care for yourself, you
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need help, but they're also the people that are kind
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of harming you. And so there's this tragic kind of
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sense of living in a war zone that becomes internalized, uh,
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that becomes, you know, really difficult to kind of manage.
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And so those would be kind of the four, um,
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the four attachment landscape skates. Oh, Sid, Sid has another
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hand drawn.
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I tried to draw them out really quick.
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So there's that little grid with the intimacy being vertical
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and the independence being horizontal. And so you got the
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pasture there, and then you got the jungle, which the
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priority is intimacy, which compromises independence. The desert, the priority
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is independence at the expense of intimacy. And then the
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war zone, the priority being survival, basically.
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I don't know if that helps.
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I put mine in the wrong spot on my picture.
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I have those two.
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It should be mismatched. It should be the other way around.
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So one of the things before I know you're going
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to ask a question, because I was thinking as you
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were talking about what is sometimes called disorganized that you
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call war zone. I was thinking for a moment, I
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was like, wait, back to behavioral science, the gambling principle
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works on intermittent reward. You know, there's the type of reward.
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Every time my child goes to the bathroom, I give
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them an M & M or whatever. That's like consistent reward,
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but gambling works on inconsistent. Do I put my well,
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you don't put coins in a slot machine anymore, but
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I put it in. Sometimes I pull that handle and
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sometimes I get a reward and sometimes I don't, I
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don't know. Just my brain went into, huh? With the
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war zone, that same thing, that kind of gamble. Sometimes
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they're there. Sometimes I'm not, will I get it or not?
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If I try harder or do this harder, I don't know.
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That was just a light bulb moment that just came
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on for me while we were. Yeah.
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That's an interesting thought, Stephanie.
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I'm that, that makes me curious too.
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Yeah, like the intermittency of it. It's not consistent.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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I felt a vibe coming.
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From Dan here. That's great. We were just on a
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family vacation, which was right next to a casino. I
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didn't go in and lose any money or make any money.
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But you see, we always had to walk through it.
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And there's like, yeah. I think in one sense, just
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to use that metaphor, the– The jungle is a little
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bit like playing a slot machine where it's like, oh,
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I won or oh, I lost. The war zone is
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kind of like playing a slot machine that will shock
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you randomly. So it's not just like, oh, I won
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or I lost. It's like, oh, ow, that hurt.
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It's got reward and punishment.
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Yeah, it's got reward and punishment feature. and I don't
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know why I got punished and I don't know why
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I got rewarded. Like it's just, and that's why sometimes
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it's called disorganized. It's also called fearful, right? Because the
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sense is I'm, I'm afraid, but it's called disorganized because
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it's like, I don't know why these things are happening.
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Like I can't, I can't organize it. And that's why
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the other three, just to go down the rabbit hole,
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the other three landscapes has become secure. The jungle or the,
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or the desert are called organized strategies and, And they're
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organized around a basic principle that kids certainly aren't saying
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it out loud. But the jungle is roughly like, if
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I pay attention to people really closely, I oftentimes can
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figure out the right moment to jump in and then
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get what I need. Not always, but oftentimes. Or the
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desert is if I just take care of my problems myself,
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if I just clean my room without being asked, if
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I just make meals for myself or maybe for my
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siblings without being asked, if I just get straight A's,
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if I just follow the rules, I know things will
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be better. And so that's kind of what's called an
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organized strategy. But the war zone is disorganized because it's
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just like they just don't know why. I just don't know.
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And then oftentimes, of course, kids internalize it and they say, well,
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I'm the problem. Like I am broken. And then they
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just internalize all that themselves.
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All right.
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I want to add a layer maybe to what the
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book says, because I read through the whole book. I
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ended up being in the desert, but I ended up
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being in the desert for no reason mentioned in the book.
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Not even close. So the book lends itself towards maybe
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family of origin, the genital things, stuff like that. What
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was interesting is it almost felt like out of my
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own ignorance, I walked into the desert and didn't know
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I was there because what turned out to be after
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thinking through it, it's, I didn't know that there was
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a richer life. I didn't know a pasture existed. I
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wasn't actually looking for one. I didn't know that I
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missed things that a pasture could offer.
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So this was good.
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I got to live in the desert. I didn't necessarily
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find a great connection to be enriching. I was happy.
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you know, generally happy on my independent scale and maybe
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bent it a little too far in the way independent
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is defined in the book. A lot of that, you
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make it on to an Asperger's diagnosis, perhaps. But I
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thought it was interesting that when I got through, I
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was like, yep, I'm clearly here, but none of these
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causes align. So With that as another layer on top.
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So I'll add another, I'll add another layer. I'll add
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another aspect of my own life is I came from
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a very healthy home.
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Very leave it to beaver.
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You know, you know, I, my dad worked and was
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traveled a lot. So he was gone a lot, but I,
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You know, I've said this a couple of times, and
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we joke about it now. You know, at some point
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during my childhood, my dad said he loved me. And
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I figured that one time was enough because if he
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changed his mind, he'd tell me that too.
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He tried to find that in marriage too.
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I told you that's the answer.
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So.
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That'll work.
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No, it's very logical though. It is, right?
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Like if your dad isn't prone to be a person
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who changes a lot, that makes sense.
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If you're him and if you're me, that was all
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that was necessary. So I give that as a little
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bit more background to, I'm going to give, you know,
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comment on top of that because typically what this conversation
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is going to be geared towards is the autistic spectrum
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individual that might have experienced like, that doesn't mean that
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there wasn't discord in their origin. That just means there
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is another blend of behavior, thinking patterns that also lead
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themselves towards a different, a different landscape.
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Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, just for the record, you know,
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I don't think we have to be on the spectrum
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to tend toward that. Well, I told you once, why
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do I have to keep telling, I function that way too.
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So it'll be like, you seem angry. And I was like,
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if I was angry, I would tell you, I would
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literally tell her that. So if I haven't told you
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that I'm angry, then I'm not angry. And she's like,
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but you look angry. And you're like walking around the kitchen,
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like you're angry. And I was like, yeah, but I'm
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keeping that to myself as best as I can. And
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if I was angry, I would tell you.
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Right.
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So, but so, well, there's two things that, that I
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would say. And then, you know, and I love this
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to be a kind of a conversation because you guys
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are more of an expert's on the one hand on
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some of these things is I would say a lot
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of times when we're, we're talking with people is, is
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we say you, you don't always need to know the
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story for why you're in the landscape where you are.
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If you can tell a story and you can kind
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of figure that out, then that's great. And if through
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the years, you know, that deepens or changes, then that's fine.
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But just being able to notice like, well, where am
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I now? And then where's Jesus trying to lead me? Like,
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so sometimes that's, you know, that's, That's the most important thing.
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And so how did you get into this desert? Well,
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I don't know. But now, you know, you don't live
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by yourself. You're in community. You have a family. You
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have a wife.
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Right.
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So what would be, you know, movements? forward toward integration
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or more health? You know, not that you felt like
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a loss of something, but there's always the fullness that
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God is leading us into. So how do we keep
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taking those steps to the fullness of life? So that'd
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be one question. The other one would be is I
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think as a more neurodivergent kind of conversation, is there
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I think there is there is something about that where
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you could be in the desert, not as like a
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survival strategy that grew out of like a family of
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origin kind of context. And it's, you kind of walked
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into the desert, not necessarily as a way of avoiding
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emotions or of avoiding kind of pain of abandonment or
384
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something like that. You're just like, I don't know. I
385
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was just living my life and I say things once
386
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and that's good. And you know, and I'm like, And
387
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I don't have a rollercoaster of emotions or whatever. And
388
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so I think that's okay. And that might be normal.
389
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There is a sense not to be too like gender
390
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specific too, but there is a sense in which all
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things being equal, you know, men can tend toward the
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independence line and women can tend toward the intimacy line.
393
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And that partly has to do with the way the
394
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brain develops, even in utero. And in the first couple
395
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of months, women's brains, you know, they're the course of
396
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.779
Colossum actually has more fibers. So it's like the hemispheres are,
397
00:21:11.140 --> 00:21:15.890
are more connected, uh, than men's, uh, their social verbal
398
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kind of processing gets online sooner.
399
00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:17.930
Right.
400
00:21:17.950 --> 00:21:21.289
So there's just all sorts of things where, you know, men, um,
401
00:21:21.609 --> 00:21:24.029
and women kind of just can tend toward that, but,
402
00:21:24.490 --> 00:21:26.390
you know, we were made to kind of have these
403
00:21:26.650 --> 00:21:30.650
two things to be integrated. Um, I think there could be,
404
00:21:31.769 --> 00:21:34.410
even outside of like neurodivergence, like I think there can
405
00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:37.349
be some genetic things that can tip people toward one,
406
00:21:37.930 --> 00:21:40.589
toward the jungle or maybe toward the desert that are
407
00:21:40.970 --> 00:21:43.619
kind of the genetic and or the epigenetic expression of
408
00:21:43.670 --> 00:21:46.920
things that then become a little bit less of the
409
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.799
nurture and a little bit closer to the nature side.
410
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:53.599
But then the question that we always kind of think is, well,
411
00:21:55.059 --> 00:21:57.700
that is all true. And then that needs to be
412
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taken into account. And what is the fullness of life?
413
00:22:00.950 --> 00:22:03.539
And then what's the next step in developing that as
414
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:05.710
God is leading us? Siddha, you were about to jump in.
415
00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:08.640
I heard a breath, but I wouldn't stop talking. So
416
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:09.700
you couldn't jump in.
417
00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:13.759
Yeah, I was just going to add that, you know,
418
00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:16.500
when I, as a coach and a spiritual director, it's
419
00:22:16.619 --> 00:22:19.839
not unusual at all for people who have lived in
420
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:23.299
the desert to just think that life is full, right?
421
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That there isn't anything missing. Because just that was just
422
00:22:28.420 --> 00:22:32.950
the normal. And even aside from neurodivergence, growing up in
423
00:22:32.970 --> 00:22:36.210
a household that doesn't talk a lot about emotions or
424
00:22:36.329 --> 00:22:40.089
about the internal world inside of us, but talks more
425
00:22:40.150 --> 00:22:43.319
about the facts and the circumstances and the situations and
426
00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:47.819
events of life, it's not even a category that there
427
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.950
would be something that's beyond that. And so it's not
428
00:22:52.009 --> 00:22:54.829
unusual to me at all that I meet people who
429
00:22:55.049 --> 00:22:57.410
are in the desert and just don't know that they've
430
00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:00.839
ever missed anything, that there was anything besides the desert.
431
00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:04.559
And so as I hear you say that, Dan, it
432
00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:07.440
could be neurodivergence. It could be being on the spectrum.
433
00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:10.000
It could also just be that that was your normal.
434
00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:14.000
And especially a Leave it to Beaver type household, if
435
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:16.500
you remember watching Leave it to Beaver, I don't remember
436
00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:21.119
them having a lot of conversations about how I'm experiencing life.
437
00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:22.859
It's more like, well, did you do what you needed
438
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:26.690
to do? Did you get your chores done? Are you obeying?
439
00:23:27.869 --> 00:23:31.490
It's more about the externals and less about the internals.
440
00:23:32.210 --> 00:23:35.289
And so I think that's a pretty natural experience for
441
00:23:35.329 --> 00:23:38.549
people who grow up that way, that there doesn't seem
442
00:23:38.589 --> 00:23:41.190
to be a real recognition that there's something that I'm missing.
443
00:23:42.579 --> 00:23:46.500
I appreciate that you both said it's not super important
444
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:50.440
to know How you got to the landscape. Some of
445
00:23:50.500 --> 00:23:55.160
our black and white thinkers are thinking, I can't work
446
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.140
on my attachment to my wife until I figure out
447
00:23:58.299 --> 00:24:01.799
how I got to this landscape, fix it with Jesus,
448
00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:04.720
get over to the secure pasture with Jesus. Then I
449
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:07.640
can work on attachment with others. And so they can
450
00:24:07.660 --> 00:24:10.619
get bogged down in the story. I don't know how
451
00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.299
I got here. How did I find in this landscape?
452
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:13.779
If I don't know how I got to this landscape
453
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and I don't know how to get out, which is
454
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.779
still a very logical thing. because we're supposed to be
455
00:24:19.819 --> 00:24:22.710
relying on the way maker to help us get out
456
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of whatever landscape we're into the pasture. And I also
457
00:24:25.750 --> 00:24:27.609
appreciate it in the class that I took with you,
458
00:24:28.190 --> 00:24:31.230
I think it was through embodied faith. Um, we talked
459
00:24:31.269 --> 00:24:35.279
about in class, you can have a different landscape with
460
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:40.660
different parents. Um, and it's not as static as we thought,
461
00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:43.220
cause I shared in class, I feel like I started
462
00:24:43.299 --> 00:24:46.680
out in the pasture, went down to, uh, the jungle
463
00:24:46.700 --> 00:24:48.680
a little bit and then, Ooh, there's a little war
464
00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:52.119
zone time. And then, okay. The desert, I feel like
465
00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:56.440
the safest place to be just on different aspects of
466
00:24:56.740 --> 00:25:00.769
your childhood and what's going on in your home, siblings, parents,
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00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.049
extended family. It's, it's, we just used to think it
468
00:25:04.089 --> 00:25:08.549
was so static. You're this style. And so new relationships
469
00:25:08.670 --> 00:25:11.990
and new community can help be part of how Jesus
470
00:25:12.750 --> 00:25:14.650
gets us to the pasture. So we don't have to
471
00:25:14.690 --> 00:25:17.500
get so stuck in like, what landscape I'm in and
472
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.440
how did I get here? Um, kind of like what Dan,
473
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:23.220
you know, experienced, but I was, when he came up
474
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.380
as a desert, I was like, oh, the world, you
475
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.579
have the most secure little pasture for sheep ever. How
476
00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:34.380
did that happen? But, um, in a quadrant, I think
477
00:25:34.420 --> 00:25:36.210
it was your class where you had us take it. Like,
478
00:25:36.269 --> 00:25:39.529
where did we land? Maybe in a quadrant when I,
479
00:25:39.910 --> 00:25:42.170
I let him do it. His was like right there
480
00:25:42.549 --> 00:25:46.549
on like the desert. pasture land, like it wasn't way
481
00:25:47.450 --> 00:25:49.259
deep in the desert. It was kind of like on
482
00:25:49.299 --> 00:25:52.880
that land where maybe there's an oasis there. It's just enough.
483
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:55.819
Crossover.
484
00:25:56.140 --> 00:25:58.839
There's enough desert and there's enough water to sustain. And
485
00:25:59.660 --> 00:26:03.279
so I think maybe that's with the neurodivergent piece back
486
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:06.880
to nature versus nurture. If I don't need as much connection.
487
00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:07.519
Sure.
488
00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:08.599
Right.
489
00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:10.799
I don't need that much from people. So if I'm
490
00:26:10.819 --> 00:26:14.869
just getting what I need, Self-determination theory just calls it,
491
00:26:15.289 --> 00:26:18.960
instead of intimacy and independence, it would be autonomy and relatedness.
492
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:21.779
And that all of us have different degrees of how
493
00:26:21.819 --> 00:26:25.420
much autonomy agency we want and how much relatedness that
494
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.259
we want just as a person. And then if we
495
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.779
have these other things, I think that kind of develops
496
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:34.619
these strategies. But a question that came in was like, okay,
497
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:38.809
where does personality and temperament fit into all of this? Yeah.
498
00:26:38.910 --> 00:26:42.460
And that's something I continue to be curious about. Is that, um,
499
00:26:42.819 --> 00:26:46.349
but if we think about, you know, so Dan Siegel
500
00:26:46.869 --> 00:26:48.809
and another team of people, they came out with a
501
00:26:48.849 --> 00:26:54.349
book called, uh, I can't see it on my shelf
502
00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:57.890
right now, but it's something about personality development pathways, like
503
00:26:57.970 --> 00:27:03.490
wholeness in therapy and something it's slightly Enneagram adjacent, but
504
00:27:03.569 --> 00:27:06.160
he talks about sort of the different data they talk
505
00:27:06.259 --> 00:27:08.799
as a team about like looking at the brain research.
506
00:27:09.769 --> 00:27:13.329
of what's in our limbic system and what's in our
507
00:27:14.190 --> 00:27:16.529
sort of predisposition to things.
508
00:27:17.549 --> 00:27:19.690
But then also, they kind of.
509
00:27:21.369 --> 00:27:24.549
Talk about how the way that your personality or your
510
00:27:24.609 --> 00:27:27.809
temperament would shape all of this would be that it
511
00:27:27.890 --> 00:27:33.369
would make your tendencies more extreme or less extreme and
512
00:27:33.410 --> 00:27:37.079
make your window of tolerance wider or narrower. So like
513
00:27:37.190 --> 00:27:42.480
within the jungle, your temperament might make you a more.
514
00:27:42.380 --> 00:27:46.039
Intense kind of jungle or a more kind of subdued jungle.
515
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.359
Like your jungle might be more like on the surface,
516
00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:52.480
like everybody can tell that you're always anxious and hypervigilant
517
00:27:53.180 --> 00:27:55.359
and always trying to seek connection and you're sort of
518
00:27:55.420 --> 00:27:58.460
being overbearing in your bids for connection and your desire
519
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.319
to be with people. Or it can be a little
520
00:28:01.339 --> 00:28:05.839
bit more internal. and less expressed. So that introvert extrovert
521
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:08.660
kind of thing going on. Um, and then it can
522
00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:11.779
also be like a tendency towards like monitoring your own
523
00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:13.140
internal landscape more.
524
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:15.529
I mean, like maybe your anxiety is more inside of you.
525
00:28:15.549 --> 00:28:18.769
Um, or it could be like, I'm managing my external
526
00:28:18.809 --> 00:28:21.690
environment with all of my anxiety. And so I think
527
00:28:21.730 --> 00:28:23.569
that that's a little bit of like what they kind
528
00:28:23.609 --> 00:28:25.650
of are saying in that book. And they're using the
529
00:28:25.690 --> 00:28:28.319
lens of the Enneagram, um, they talk a little bit
530
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:31.160
about attachment there too, but they're basically saying that it's
531
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:36.190
like those early predispositions in your brain before birth just
532
00:28:36.230 --> 00:28:39.190
maybe cause the expression to be a little bit different,
533
00:28:39.309 --> 00:28:43.559
but that the patterns of attachment still kind of, attachment
534
00:28:43.720 --> 00:28:47.799
influences personality in the sense of the wideness of that
535
00:28:47.859 --> 00:28:49.819
window of tolerance and a little bit of the way
536
00:28:49.859 --> 00:28:54.309
that it's expressed. But that's just, that's something that I
537
00:28:54.619 --> 00:28:57.779
can't speak a lot about because I'm still learning about it,
538
00:28:57.880 --> 00:28:59.420
but I do think it's really curious.
539
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:05.470
It's been, um, if I were to say like temperament, um,
540
00:29:06.450 --> 00:29:09.890
you know, psychologists and researchers talk about these things a
541
00:29:09.910 --> 00:29:12.009
little bit differently, but I'd say your temperament and your
542
00:29:12.029 --> 00:29:16.029
attachment strategy, one is more nurture and the other one,
543
00:29:16.069 --> 00:29:19.799
or the temperament is more nature and, uh, attachment strategy
544
00:29:19.819 --> 00:29:22.910
is more, uh, nurture and I would say those two
545
00:29:23.069 --> 00:29:25.369
add up to kind of things like your personality and
546
00:29:25.390 --> 00:29:27.680
that like the big five personalities or other things kind
547
00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:30.680
of live on top or even in the Enneagram. So
548
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:34.569
like temperament is much closer to the, you know, kind
549
00:29:34.589 --> 00:29:38.609
of like these innate things. So like a highly sensitive person, that's,
550
00:29:38.730 --> 00:29:40.940
you know, that'd be a temperament that's more genetically related.
551
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:45.299
And a highly sensitive person on the whole could end
552
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.400
up more in the jungle. But, and we have a
553
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:50.200
son that's kind of like this, but to manage their
554
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.690
highly sensitive nature, they might just retreat to the desert.
555
00:29:53.710 --> 00:29:54.500
Yeah. Right.
556
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:56.519
I might just turn off all that stuff. I'm like, so,
557
00:29:56.839 --> 00:29:59.529
so I think like we kind of, uh, even our
558
00:29:59.569 --> 00:30:02.910
attachment strategies kind of maybe are partly how we're managing
559
00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:07.470
kind of these innate temperaments in relationship to our parents.
560
00:30:07.490 --> 00:30:10.789
And that's why you have kids, siblings who maybe end
561
00:30:10.930 --> 00:30:14.970
up in different, um, attachment strategies, even though they have
562
00:30:15.009 --> 00:30:17.329
the same parents, you're like, well, we have the same parents.
563
00:30:17.349 --> 00:30:19.250
So why aren't we all jungle? Why aren't we all desert?
564
00:30:19.289 --> 00:30:21.009
And that's where I think that function of like your
565
00:30:21.029 --> 00:30:24.170
temperament could be different as like, well, I, by temperament,
566
00:30:24.210 --> 00:30:27.450
don't feel my feelings that hard or that much. And
567
00:30:27.549 --> 00:30:33.789
so someone being mildly neglectful or being overbearing doesn't bother me, right?
568
00:30:33.809 --> 00:30:35.470
And I drift off to the desert. But someone who's
569
00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:37.859
highly sensitive, that really bothers them. So then they tune
570
00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:40.279
in on their relationship and then they become more jungle.
571
00:30:40.299 --> 00:30:42.640
And so I think there's a lot of different factors.
572
00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:48.319
And that's also why having this concrete story isn't always,
573
00:30:48.619 --> 00:30:51.210
it can be helpful. But I struggle with shame. Now,
574
00:30:51.250 --> 00:30:54.119
why is that? I go through my life And my parents,
575
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:58.059
I'm like, I didn't get abusive, toxic shame. They didn't
576
00:30:58.099 --> 00:31:02.000
push me for performance at all. But I have a
577
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:05.240
real lived experience of a shame, especially with people I
578
00:31:05.289 --> 00:31:08.509
view as authorities or people that I want to impress.
579
00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:11.269
I was like, I didn't get that from my family.
580
00:31:11.309 --> 00:31:13.829
It came from somewhere, from sin, right? So I can't
581
00:31:13.869 --> 00:31:15.769
really tell a story, but that is a part of
582
00:31:15.809 --> 00:31:17.650
my current experience, and I need to work on that.
583
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:20.359
And so I need to work on it.
584
00:31:21.710 --> 00:31:23.369
It's sort of holding this tension of, right?
585
00:31:23.390 --> 00:31:27.380
Like the history, we can spend so much time going
586
00:31:27.410 --> 00:31:29.259
back into our history, trying to figure out where it
587
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:32.579
all came from, that then we don't do any good
588
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:35.880
work in our present and into our future. And so
589
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:38.200
that's where we're always trying to encourage people. Like it's
590
00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:40.799
helpful to know these things. It's helpful to know some
591
00:31:40.819 --> 00:31:43.359
of the general patterns, but try not to get stuck there.
592
00:31:44.019 --> 00:31:46.400
Just notice where you are and then what is God
593
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.829
inviting you into? What's the next baby step toward the pasture?
594
00:31:51.500 --> 00:31:54.980
So two things come to mind. I had the conversation, well,
595
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:58.839
in email with Dr. Wilder about attachment and neurotype. And
596
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.799
he said to imagine attachment to the volume setting of
597
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:02.759
your neurotype.
598
00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:03.519
Yeah.
599
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:04.039
Yeah.
600
00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:08.099
So if that's the volume and then you were talking temperament,
601
00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:11.779
but because we are also made uniquely by God, we
602
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:14.720
all reflect God and we all have a unique thing
603
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.069
about us that there's no other person like us. Right.
604
00:32:17.109 --> 00:32:20.059
So there's this nature nurture thing. God's design and what
605
00:32:20.099 --> 00:32:23.380
we reflect in our environment. So it's very complex. I
606
00:32:23.420 --> 00:32:25.900
don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of all
607
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.619
the reasons of why we are the way we are. But,
608
00:32:29.069 --> 00:32:31.549
and what you just said, Sid, reminded me of a
609
00:32:31.710 --> 00:32:36.089
conversation that came up about rupture versus repair in the book,
610
00:32:36.369 --> 00:32:40.049
where it says the goal is not to avoid rupture
611
00:32:40.130 --> 00:32:42.769
at all costs, right? So some of our black and
612
00:32:42.789 --> 00:32:44.910
white thinkers should be thinking, I've got to think about
613
00:32:45.549 --> 00:32:47.650
how did this rupture happen? And if I can figure
614
00:32:47.690 --> 00:32:49.890
out how the rupture happened, then therefore I'll never do
615
00:32:49.930 --> 00:32:53.930
it again. Versus like acknowledge that the rupture is there.
616
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:56.559
What do I do to repair? I was explaining to someone,
617
00:32:56.839 --> 00:32:59.180
when you go over here to start thinking about how
618
00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:01.279
you did it, you left the person here with the
619
00:33:01.339 --> 00:33:03.519
hurt and they're still in the present with their hurt.
620
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:06.740
And you're out here in the future, trying to figure
621
00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:09.380
out how not to do it again. And they're stuck here.
622
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.720
Like I'm right here. Just say you're sorry, or give
623
00:33:12.740 --> 00:33:16.079
me a hug or whatever. ask what I need for repair.
624
00:33:16.180 --> 00:33:20.549
So another question that came in is if, if there's
625
00:33:20.630 --> 00:33:24.569
never repair in a relationship, what does that do to
626
00:33:24.589 --> 00:33:27.630
the relationship? What does that do? Maybe you were in
627
00:33:27.910 --> 00:33:30.799
a secure strategy. Like how does that change if there's
628
00:33:30.950 --> 00:33:35.059
never repair in a decade, two decade relationship?
629
00:33:38.059 --> 00:33:41.049
Well, I mean, it's not going to go well, right?
630
00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:48.670
If repair is so essential to trust that if rupture
631
00:33:48.809 --> 00:33:52.539
is just left over and over and over and over again,
632
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:56.839
you're going to see a decrease in intimacy. You'll probably see,
633
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:59.980
you could see a decrease in independence as well of
634
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:04.000
just this like It just becomes less and less connected
635
00:34:04.099 --> 00:34:07.000
and more and more about protecting, right? And then it
636
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.059
probably does become more of like an over-focus on not
637
00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:13.650
having ruptures because you know that if there is a rupture,
638
00:34:13.690 --> 00:34:15.869
it's not going to get repaired. So now you're walking
639
00:34:15.909 --> 00:34:18.690
on eggshells trying not to rupture because it feels better
640
00:34:18.750 --> 00:34:22.769
when things aren't ruptured. So, I mean, that would be really,
641
00:34:22.809 --> 00:34:27.679
really challenging if the ruptures are not repaired consistently over
642
00:34:27.739 --> 00:34:31.760
and over and over again. That will definitely... be detrimental
643
00:34:31.820 --> 00:34:35.699
to the relationship. I do want to add, though, that
644
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.019
I don't know where this question comes from. I don't
645
00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:42.559
know if the other person is not recognizing that there
646
00:34:42.619 --> 00:34:45.219
even was a rupture, or if it's that the other
647
00:34:45.260 --> 00:34:47.340
person is recognizing that there was a rupture, but I
648
00:34:47.380 --> 00:34:48.860
have no interest in repairing it.
649
00:34:49.019 --> 00:34:50.460
Those feel like two different things.
650
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:55.039
If the person is saying, I don't even know what
651
00:34:55.059 --> 00:34:57.280
you're talking about when you say there was a rupture,
652
00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:02.340
then that feels more like, okay, well, it wasn't, it's
653
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.380
not like the person recognizes that there's a problem, but
654
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:08.800
I refuse to fix it. It's more like, I don't
655
00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:11.760
see what you're seeing. We're not seeing the same thing,
656
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.849
which feels like a different situation. And so as far
657
00:35:15.909 --> 00:35:18.750
as that situation goes, I mean, you guys are more
658
00:35:18.769 --> 00:35:22.869
the experts on like the differences, right? The neurotypical and
659
00:35:23.210 --> 00:35:27.789
neurodiverse and the difference there. But that feels a little
660
00:35:27.829 --> 00:35:32.059
bit more like how do I learn to love this
661
00:35:32.139 --> 00:35:34.079
person who just doesn't see the world?
662
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:34.980
Like I see it.
663
00:35:35.139 --> 00:35:35.440
Right.
664
00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:38.300
And that's where Jesus, how, right.
665
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:43.449
How help me, um, help me have compassion and understanding
666
00:35:43.550 --> 00:35:45.869
that for the same way that I see so clearly
667
00:35:45.969 --> 00:35:49.090
that this is so obvious that there's a rupture, the
668
00:35:49.150 --> 00:35:51.949
other person sees so clearly, it's so obvious that nothing
669
00:35:51.989 --> 00:35:55.789
was wrong. So how do we understand that we're in
670
00:35:55.849 --> 00:35:58.889
really different places and still learn to be able to
671
00:35:59.409 --> 00:36:01.809
love each other in the ways that we are invited
672
00:36:01.869 --> 00:36:05.309
to love each other versus if it's a rupture that
673
00:36:05.369 --> 00:36:07.389
someone knows there's a rupture and they're just like, yeah,
674
00:36:07.409 --> 00:36:09.909
I don't care or I don't want to put the
675
00:36:09.949 --> 00:36:12.690
work in or I'm not interested in repairing it or
676
00:36:12.710 --> 00:36:16.250
I'm not willing. That's a whole nother layer of hurt
677
00:36:16.429 --> 00:36:20.429
that's more on the almost abusive side. If it's like,
678
00:36:20.530 --> 00:36:22.269
I know I hurt you and I don't want to
679
00:36:22.309 --> 00:36:26.269
do anything about it. Um, but then there's also the,
680
00:36:26.500 --> 00:36:29.599
the muddier place of there's been a rupture and we
681
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.500
see it differently. We both know that there's probably a rupture,
682
00:36:32.539 --> 00:36:34.099
but I think it's your fault and you think it's
683
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:37.000
my fault. And I think you need to do something
684
00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:38.480
to fix it. And you think I need to do
685
00:36:38.539 --> 00:36:40.760
something to fix it, but we're not agreeing on what
686
00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:44.619
fixing would even look like, what repair would look like. Um,
687
00:36:44.980 --> 00:36:47.239
you know, and those can be the kinds of situations
688
00:36:47.300 --> 00:36:51.360
where we can almost do vicarious repair sometimes, like with
689
00:36:52.219 --> 00:36:55.280
even just sharing what happened with someone else who is
690
00:36:55.340 --> 00:36:59.590
a compassionate and attuned listener can do some of that
691
00:36:59.670 --> 00:37:02.190
repair work for us, even if we can't do it
692
00:37:02.250 --> 00:37:05.710
with the person. And so there's, you know, there's sort
693
00:37:05.730 --> 00:37:08.050
of a step, some steps you can walk through in
694
00:37:08.070 --> 00:37:10.519
a repair process that could be part that you can
695
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:13.840
do some of those steps with someone else so that
696
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:15.619
you at least get a little bit of that relief
697
00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:18.389
of I've been seen and heard and understood and And
698
00:37:18.409 --> 00:37:21.000
that could be the case for the person who doesn't
699
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:23.019
see that there was a rupture too. You can get
700
00:37:23.079 --> 00:37:26.820
some of that attunement from a different person. And then
701
00:37:26.860 --> 00:37:30.380
maybe that helps experience some of the sort of decrease
702
00:37:30.460 --> 00:37:34.460
of the stress and the distress around that rupture. I
703
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:36.960
don't know if any of that was helpful.
704
00:37:36.980 --> 00:37:40.570
Yeah, I have to add one more messy layer in there.
705
00:37:40.699 --> 00:37:44.750
So what tends to happen most of the time is
706
00:37:44.869 --> 00:37:47.389
I didn't see it or recognize it. You know, ignorance,
707
00:37:47.489 --> 00:37:53.949
not intentionality. There becomes the argument over intention versus impact.
708
00:37:54.230 --> 00:37:56.159
So I didn't intend to hurt you, so therefore you
709
00:37:56.199 --> 00:38:00.039
shouldn't be hurt. So let's just say 25 year marriage
710
00:38:00.340 --> 00:38:03.340
that I've been saying for 25 years. When you do X,
711
00:38:04.019 --> 00:38:08.079
it hurts me. And the logical analytical thinker says, but
712
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:11.460
I say it shouldn't hurt. Therefore, it doesn't hurt. I
713
00:38:11.559 --> 00:38:14.659
cannot admit or apologize to something that is hurtful that
714
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:17.130
is not hurtful. And the person's like, okay, you don't
715
00:38:17.150 --> 00:38:18.949
have to understand it, but just like offer to give
716
00:38:18.969 --> 00:38:20.929
me a hug or say, sorry that it hurt me.
717
00:38:20.989 --> 00:38:22.449
Can you do that? And it's like, well, I can't
718
00:38:22.969 --> 00:38:25.170
because Matt's admitting I did a thing that I didn't
719
00:38:25.289 --> 00:38:27.150
do that I don't think should have been a thing.
720
00:38:27.670 --> 00:38:30.449
And so it gets kind of crazy in there, this
721
00:38:30.489 --> 00:38:32.269
intention versus impact.
722
00:38:32.309 --> 00:38:34.340
So what I'm hearing, and then I'll let Jeff answer
723
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:36.360
this question too, because I'm sure he has something to say,
724
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:39.519
but that like what I'm hearing in that is maybe
725
00:38:39.539 --> 00:38:42.059
the person doesn't have to acknowledge that it should or
726
00:38:42.099 --> 00:38:45.739
shouldn't hurt for you. But they can at least acknowledge
727
00:38:45.989 --> 00:38:50.809
your experience of this is to experience hurt. Whether I
728
00:38:50.849 --> 00:38:55.389
think you should or not, the reality is you're experiencing
729
00:38:55.449 --> 00:38:56.250
it as hurtful.
730
00:38:57.449 --> 00:38:58.929
And so that's real.
731
00:38:59.309 --> 00:39:02.750
Like that's just as much a fact as the fact
732
00:39:02.789 --> 00:39:05.280
that I don't think it should be hurtful because I
733
00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:08.900
don't mean to hurt you. But it's just as true
734
00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:12.159
that the other person is consistently hurt by the same thing.
735
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:13.659
And they've expressed it.
736
00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:16.800
And they've asked you to do something differently and you
737
00:39:16.820 --> 00:39:19.800
continue to not do that different thing because you continue
738
00:39:19.820 --> 00:39:22.159
to insist that it doesn't hurt when they keep telling
739
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.469
you it clearly does. And so that would be like a,
740
00:39:25.829 --> 00:39:28.510
then it comes down to probably, you know, and this
741
00:39:28.550 --> 00:39:30.380
might be naive of me to say, I'm not married
742
00:39:30.409 --> 00:39:32.860
to someone who's neurodiverse, but that, but like, it would
743
00:39:32.909 --> 00:39:35.679
make sense that like, if you are committed to this
744
00:39:35.739 --> 00:39:39.659
relationship and the person is telling you consistently that this
745
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:43.579
thing is hurtful to me, then it becomes a choice, right?
746
00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:47.389
It becomes like, I want to choose to help you
747
00:39:47.510 --> 00:39:50.059
to be able to stay in this experience. And I
748
00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:52.659
recognize that this thing, even though I don't understand why
749
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.679
it hurts you, you tell me it does.
750
00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:58.619
So I want to choose to do something different. I
751
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:00.539
don't know if that makes any sense at all.
752
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:02.800
I talk about choice all the time because there does
753
00:40:02.860 --> 00:40:05.039
come a point, I don't have to understand, just like
754
00:40:05.059 --> 00:40:07.619
I don't have to understand my landscape to get out
755
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:10.469
of it. Right. I don't have to understand why I
756
00:40:10.550 --> 00:40:13.130
hurt you as much as you said it hurts. So
757
00:40:13.170 --> 00:40:16.960
how do we get past that. Yeah. So yeah, some
758
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.699
of it does start to come down to a choice. I,
759
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:19.559
I would say yes.
760
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.340
I think something for me was, and it was difficult to, uh,
761
00:40:23.449 --> 00:40:26.829
like the difference between like recognizing something and like agreeing
762
00:40:26.869 --> 00:40:31.269
with it is, um, like Sid would give me the feedback, uh,
763
00:40:31.289 --> 00:40:34.429
you know, I'm taller than her. Um, you know, I
764
00:40:34.489 --> 00:40:40.530
speak confidently, uh, and, uh, I'm kind of lanky, I
765
00:40:40.530 --> 00:40:43.010
have long arms. And when we'd be in a fight
766
00:40:43.150 --> 00:40:45.090
or any kind of discussion, even if it's not a fight,
767
00:40:45.170 --> 00:40:46.329
I would put my hands on my hips.
768
00:40:46.349 --> 00:40:48.130
Most of the time it wasn't a fight and it
769
00:40:48.170 --> 00:40:49.880
turned into one because of this.
770
00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:54.179
And I, you know, and so that's kind of like
771
00:40:54.219 --> 00:40:55.980
a power pose to have your hands on your hips.
772
00:40:56.179 --> 00:40:58.079
But for me, it was just comfortable. Or I'd cross
773
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:00.000
my arms. I'd sit like this with my arms crossed
774
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.400
because it's just comfortable. I'm not angry. I'm not frustrated.
775
00:41:02.420 --> 00:41:04.460
I'm not closed off at all. Because remember, if I
776
00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:07.119
was angry with you, I would tell you, right? But I,
777
00:41:07.219 --> 00:41:11.449
so I'm sending off for most people, Nonverbal cues that,
778
00:41:11.750 --> 00:41:14.289
you know, I'm angry or I'm powering up. But for me,
779
00:41:14.309 --> 00:41:18.329
that's not my, that's not my quote intention. The other
780
00:41:18.369 --> 00:41:20.250
layer to that is Sid, you know, grew up in
781
00:41:20.269 --> 00:41:22.969
a verbally abusive family. So then I had to go
782
00:41:22.989 --> 00:41:25.059
the next step and be like, you're only interpreting my
783
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:28.949
body because you had a bad dad. And now it's
784
00:41:28.989 --> 00:41:31.610
two steps removed for me because one, it's not my intention,
785
00:41:31.650 --> 00:41:33.800
which I just told you. Two, it's your dad's fault.
786
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:35.400
So why don't you go off and deal with that?
787
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:36.059
Right.
788
00:41:36.219 --> 00:41:38.500
So this is how early on in our marriage it
789
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:40.920
would go, which then it's just like, it's all, well,
790
00:41:41.059 --> 00:41:46.329
it's not me, it's you. And I think, so we
791
00:41:46.349 --> 00:41:48.630
kind of came up with this statement of like, well,
792
00:41:48.889 --> 00:41:51.909
maybe I could be technically right about any of those things,
793
00:41:52.030 --> 00:41:55.809
but I'm relationally wrong because there's this person in front
794
00:41:55.829 --> 00:41:58.960
of me. whom I'm putting stumbling blocks in front of them,
795
00:41:59.059 --> 00:42:02.099
whether it's my intention or not. And if I love
796
00:42:02.139 --> 00:42:06.639
this person, I won't just tell her my intentions, you know,
797
00:42:07.179 --> 00:42:10.019
as not always. And sometimes I tell Sid, I can't
798
00:42:10.059 --> 00:42:11.619
do that. I think you're asking too much of me,
799
00:42:11.659 --> 00:42:13.719
but the things I could do, I could be like,
800
00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:15.760
you know what? I can do that. I can change that.
801
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:17.420
Or we can work on a code word. So you
802
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:19.539
can give me a little hint that I shouldn't stand
803
00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:21.489
that way when we're talking, or maybe we need to
804
00:42:21.530 --> 00:42:23.179
sit down on a couch so that I'm not taller
805
00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:25.309
than her. So there's things you can do to manage it.
806
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:28.650
And so I think in my mind, going back to
807
00:42:28.690 --> 00:42:31.650
John 10, 10, that Jesus came to give life to
808
00:42:31.690 --> 00:42:35.510
the fullest is kind of the question, rather than kind
809
00:42:35.530 --> 00:42:37.469
of thinking through our life history and where did we
810
00:42:37.489 --> 00:42:39.750
get these deficits from? Where did we get these stumbling
811
00:42:39.789 --> 00:42:42.300
blocks from? And if you can find that, then great.
812
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.400
But always asking like, well, what's the fullness of life
813
00:42:45.500 --> 00:42:47.739
that Jesus is leading me to? What's the fullness of
814
00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:51.559
life in this marriage and in this relationship? And just
815
00:42:51.619 --> 00:42:55.920
because I'm my intention is mismatched to the impact or
816
00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:01.019
the reaction. Like just digging in on who is right
817
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:05.059
or who is wrong about that is not getting at the, well,
818
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.920
what's the fullness of this relationship? And you can never
819
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:14.340
technically get to the fullness, right? That's always moving forward,
820
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:17.760
overflowing kind of experience. Things could be fuller. And certainly
821
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:21.679
the fullness of life gets deferred to eternity in life
822
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:23.820
with Christ when all things are redeemed. And there's some things,
823
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:25.699
you know, it's like even our physical health, like we
824
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:27.829
have ailments, right? So we're not always going to experience
825
00:43:27.849 --> 00:43:31.750
the fullness. And sometimes you with a partner or even
826
00:43:31.769 --> 00:43:34.449
you with yourself, you're like, I am, I'm still working
827
00:43:34.489 --> 00:43:36.449
on this, but man, that fullness seems a long way away.
828
00:43:36.530 --> 00:43:38.179
And then you could look at a spouse and be like,
829
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:41.239
you know, are they, I think it's like, are they
830
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:44.000
trying or are they not trying is sometimes what it
831
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:46.039
comes down. And maybe that's goes back to the agency
832
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:48.750
question of like, If I was, you know, Sid can
833
00:43:48.769 --> 00:43:50.809
look at me and be like, okay, like he just
834
00:43:50.829 --> 00:43:53.250
went back to that 10 year pattern that really bothers me.
835
00:43:53.710 --> 00:43:56.090
But I also remember that he's been trying. And so
836
00:43:56.130 --> 00:43:58.170
I can have grace for that mistake because I've seen
837
00:43:58.190 --> 00:44:00.170
that and I can do the same for her. And
838
00:44:00.210 --> 00:44:02.190
sometimes we don't have grace for each other, but then
839
00:44:02.230 --> 00:44:04.489
a lot of times we do. So, oh, that was
840
00:44:04.530 --> 00:44:04.769
a lot.
841
00:44:05.250 --> 00:44:08.610
So very good. I'm kind of bringing full circle. Is
842
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:10.880
there anything else as I know of our time is
843
00:44:10.900 --> 00:44:12.360
drawing short together?
844
00:44:12.380 --> 00:44:15.460
Nothing that has a short answer.
845
00:44:16.989 --> 00:44:19.530
I want to ask a question that came in because
846
00:44:19.590 --> 00:44:22.090
maybe this has a short answer. How do the authors
847
00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:25.530
define soul? It's not clearly defined in the book.
848
00:44:26.869 --> 00:44:29.699
Soul? Oh gosh, yeah. That's a big kind of question.
849
00:44:30.460 --> 00:44:33.119
You know, I do think, and a lot of people
850
00:44:33.159 --> 00:44:35.219
go down the neuroscience thing, you know, they kind of
851
00:44:35.260 --> 00:44:37.659
have gone in this route that like the soul is
852
00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:41.119
some sort of emergent property based off our embodied life
853
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:42.610
and the life energies or however you want to say that.
854
00:44:43.409 --> 00:44:46.429
You know, I still kind of decide with, somewhat of
855
00:44:46.469 --> 00:44:49.329
the old view of like, I think there's some sort
856
00:44:49.349 --> 00:44:52.550
of immaterial part of us. Some people call it mind.
857
00:44:53.469 --> 00:44:55.650
So like Dr. Lee Warren, he'll talk about how our
858
00:44:55.690 --> 00:44:57.809
mind is different than our brain and that there's an
859
00:44:57.929 --> 00:45:01.650
agency that comes from our mind that then rewires our brain.
860
00:45:02.030 --> 00:45:05.300
So I do think there is an agency that kind
861
00:45:05.340 --> 00:45:10.179
of comes from somewhere that is more than our embodied
862
00:45:10.219 --> 00:45:13.300
nervous systems. That's more than our neural pathways that have
863
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:17.170
been ingrained and more than our um, tendencies. And I
864
00:45:17.210 --> 00:45:19.469
think that's where the back to that fullness of life
865
00:45:19.789 --> 00:45:22.989
comes to, to a full of like, God is giving
866
00:45:23.050 --> 00:45:26.909
us a fullness of life that cannot be contained or
867
00:45:27.070 --> 00:45:32.329
trapped or thwarted just by even our social histories or
868
00:45:32.570 --> 00:45:36.030
our embodied existences, that there's some sort of fullness that's coming.
869
00:45:36.070 --> 00:45:38.219
And if you want to put soul somewhere in there,
870
00:45:38.929 --> 00:45:39.860
then I'm all for it.
871
00:45:39.860 --> 00:45:43.719
Okay. Will there be an embodied faith summit this year?
872
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:48.179
There will be. Yes, it's going to be mid-October again.
873
00:45:48.500 --> 00:45:52.199
That's where we bring some therapists, we bring some theologians,
874
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:56.119
we bring some spiritual directors, spiritual formation experts. This year's
875
00:45:56.219 --> 00:46:00.480
theme is deepening relationships. So how do we do that
876
00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:03.900
from a biblical theological perspective, getting some therapists to talk
877
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:06.849
about that, and then also spiritual formation I'm really excited about.
878
00:46:06.889 --> 00:46:09.389
We're just starting to do the recordings and starting to
879
00:46:09.409 --> 00:46:09.769
work on that.
880
00:46:11.420 --> 00:46:13.880
All right. Anything else you want to add, Sid, as
881
00:46:13.900 --> 00:46:15.500
we're kind of wrapping up our time today?
882
00:46:17.219 --> 00:46:20.440
Just that I'm curious to know what the other questions are,
883
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:22.039
and I'm sad that we ran out of time.
884
00:46:22.059 --> 00:46:25.619
I know. Well, it's really hard to get you both
885
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:26.530
on the show.
886
00:46:27.150 --> 00:46:27.469
It is.
887
00:46:27.530 --> 00:46:29.989
Yeah, the next six months are really busy for us
888
00:46:30.070 --> 00:46:34.250
as we kind of engage in combined and separate writing projects.
889
00:46:34.349 --> 00:46:37.110
But we're really just excited about the questions you guys
890
00:46:37.150 --> 00:46:39.849
keep asking and the way you guys wanting to kind
891
00:46:39.869 --> 00:46:41.989
of ask this on the behalf of the people you
892
00:46:42.010 --> 00:46:45.239
work with and just um you know because we're all
893
00:46:45.550 --> 00:46:49.079
wonderfully made and that's both a blessing and a little
894
00:46:49.099 --> 00:46:50.980
frustrating for all of us as we seek to live
895
00:46:51.019 --> 00:46:54.980
together right so um i definitely want to put a
896
00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:58.320
plug out there for the embodied faith summit um uh
897
00:46:58.380 --> 00:47:01.139
landscapes of the soul does god really like me are
898
00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:03.179
kind of two starter books and then you can go
899
00:47:03.219 --> 00:47:06.119
really deep with the summit and the podcast.
900
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.210
As well So as we wrap up, we play the game.
901
00:47:08.309 --> 00:47:11.210
Does Dan remember our outro? Word. No.
902
00:47:11.750 --> 00:47:11.989
Okay.
903
00:47:12.070 --> 00:47:17.610
That's there. You're not alone on your journey. There's hope
904
00:47:17.630 --> 00:47:20.139
for your future. There we go. All right. Thank you
905
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:22.699
all for joining us. And we hope to have you
906
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:23.219
on again.
907
00:47:23.699 --> 00:47:26.300
If you want to move your neurodiverse family from surviving
908
00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:32.639
to thriving, check out our family courses at homesasr.com. If
909
00:47:32.659 --> 00:47:35.719
you are a professional counselor or minister... or just want
910
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:38.380
to know more about the courses to educate and equip
911
00:47:38.420 --> 00:47:42.820
you for neurodiverse marriage ministry or counseling, check out the
912
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:48.639
resources for professionals at christianneurodiversemarriage.com. Couples, we have courses for
913
00:47:48.679 --> 00:47:51.340
you too. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to leave
914
00:47:51.380 --> 00:47:53.519
a thumbs up, a like, or a positive review on
915
00:47:53.539 --> 00:47:54.980
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