Thinking Agentic AI with Seth Juarez

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Hey guess what, it's dot net rocks from Bill. This
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is the last show we were recording. I'm Carl Franklin.
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We're here with Sef Juarez and we'll be talking to.
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Get that out of there. Get a little fam Sorry,
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you gotta get it out. You know, we're a little punchy.
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This is not only the last show of the day,
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but it's the last show up. Oh, if you got
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a punchy a show with a punchy dude, it's gonna
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be great.
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It's gonna be You've been working hard, that's right. I
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just want to start talking to Seth. Do we really
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have to do the intro stuff? You should do the interesting?
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We gotta do it. You got to pay so you
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know it's episode nineteen fifty seven. Wow, that's the year
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I was born. It's not true. It could be in
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a different universe very close. It could be in a
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parallel universe. If you know quantum theory, the many worlds
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as you know, Richard In posits that perhaps there's another
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universe where I was born in nineteenfty seven. There's a
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million universes. That happened, sixty seven year old set. I
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just wanted to use the word posits in the thing.
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And so now my job is I'm done. You must
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have a master's degree.
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I have something. So do you want to do the
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history first? You want to do I didn't do the history.
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So what happened in nineteen fifty spot Nick one?
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Okay, the first the first artificial salarate over the world,
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and then sput Nick two. They put a dog in
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it and she died. No, actually no, she was in
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the Guardians of the Galaxies. Right, wait, that's not real.
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We want the historical documents and it's worse than any think.
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She didn't she didn't die and re entry, she didn't suffocate.
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She overheated. There wasn't temperature controls oh thanks.
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Sometime around here in the nineteen late nineteen fifties, electric
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boat from General Dynamics was established in the Nautilus.
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That was no electric boat? Is that? Is that a
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like a line dance? What is fifty five? Isn't it?
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The electric boat? Is that like the electric slide? But no, no,
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no waste? The nuclear submarine? Oh yeah, the first nuclear summer, theatlis.
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That's right, Okay, I'm sorry. I had a forward memory of.
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I also usually referenced a computer, and in nineteen fifty seven,
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IBM released a compact computer, the six', ten only eight hundred,
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pounds much smaller than the previous. Ones it really was
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an improvement there you. GO i, mean if you want
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to get, fit you get one of those commonract eight
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hundred pounds. Computers also released the first compiler for. Fortrend hey, yo,
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wow still running some code out. There there's as for
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trend dot hold. On So i'm not. Kidding there are
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some linear algebra operations that were written In fortrand that
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people were, like let's just not do that. AGAIN i
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think it's like some WEIRD langsos method for, computing like
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singular value, decomposition that they're, like let's just not do that.
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Again somebody did, that and we're, gonna we're, gonna we're
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gonna honor them and we're just gonna leave that. Alone. Wow.
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WOW i actually contributed this.
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SOMEHOW i actually remember taking A fortran. Class but it
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was like in the. Eighties, yeah a little further, on yeah,
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too it was like in THE i did fourtran.
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Three oh is there a sound? Effect weing? At BUT
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i love? It all? Right, well, anyway anything else in
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nineteen fifty there was a lot Of there was a
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lot of. Things there's new clear. Test it's all kinds
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of horrible stuff listed with, computers all, right and speaking
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of atomic, fires what are we talking about? Today, well
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we gotta finished the fish such a. Hurry i'm not
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in a.
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Hurry, okay all, right let's do the better note of
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framework roll the, music all. Right, so as you, Know
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Jeff fritz AND I Jeff frits For microsoft And big
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INTO ai And. Blazer we do This blazer puzzle.
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Show AND i was just.
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Talking to him about all of the cool THINGS i
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saw at the, keynote including, you my friend oh hey
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uh at the keynote it build and of course he's
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hipped to all of this, stuff and we were kind
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of talking about how and we talked about this with
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some of our guests this. Week about how the prompts
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are becoming code and instead of having code, libraries people
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are going to start sharing prompt. Libraries Prompt so what
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Did fritz point me? To he pointed me to sharp,
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site which is all these prompts for Doing blazer applications
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with the.
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Agent oh, interesting do they? Work?
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Yeah in good hub co pilot so code style and,
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structure naming, conventions dot net specific, guidelines sho air handling and,
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validation like all of these great prompts to help you
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create Great blazer.
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Applications that's all the. Agent how about? THAT i think that's.
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Great anything that we can do to further the work OF,
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ai because you, Know i've BEEN i was like on
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show like, SEVENTEEN i don't, know something like that eighteen
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AND i was, like machine learning is the future AND
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i was like What and we didn't understand. It then
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we still, don't but at least it's. Working but it's,
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true and you just still understand. It we just, believe you,
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KNOW i really excited that people are, like let's use
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this stuff right five seventy Six july of twenty. Ten
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oh my, gosh aires on machines in eighteen years AND
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i just get more. Beautiful i'm glad this is. True
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in this, medium it's really hard to, know but it's for.
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SURE i want you to imagine, it all.
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Right richard Save, us who's talking to us, today.
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Grabbed to comment off a show nineteen, nineteen which you
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did in twenty twenty, four a little more recent In
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october With Prascent boy here he's AN mvp DOING ai
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related stuff that he wanted to talk, about and we
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did talk About Copilot, studio WHICH i believe has now
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been renamed because. Reasons, yeah And John tallon had this
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great comments from a few months. Ago he, SAID i
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enjoyed the. Show chat BASED ai apps are quick to stand,
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up but tough to get right every time a man
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rag dazzles that. First but yet it's limited without deep. Engineering.
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Ooh in real, conversations not everything is a, question and
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bought led chats are no. Different we must parse the user's,
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intent evaluate the quality of their, input then apply a
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chain of erication to fact checkbox. Responses i'm a practice
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director in data AND II, ai And i've worked in Gen,
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Ai AZURE Ai studio and Co Pilot, studio and despite
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the Marketing Copilot studio isn't for your Quote jim From.
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Accounts it's for seasoned consultants Like brashant who know how
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to use the. Platform using it for complex, interactions like
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a rocket launcher on a. Fly, yeah it, works but
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it's a little over. Complicated rocket launcher on a. Fly it's,
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like use. It, yeah let me say that. Again using
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it for complex interactions is like using a rocket launcher
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on a.
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Fly it's kind of taken a nod from my term
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swatting a fly with a.
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Buick we had a term swatting a fly with a,
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shotgun and my algorithms professor was, like we have an
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algorithm for sorting that's faster than en log, in but
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only with giant data. Sets it's like swatting a fly
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with a. Shotgun, yes, yeah. Nice we should only explose
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enough complexity to get the job. Done letting use His
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harner's AI's potential without feeling. Overwhelmed after, all the goal
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is to DEMOCRATIZE, ai not. Intimidate what year was? That
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that was last? Week, yeah this is like a few months.
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Ago the answer is you just, wait wait till next.
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Years you. Know one of the things that CAME i
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felt came out of build was this sense that nobody's
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dominating in the space at. All, yeah there's lots of different,
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models there's lots of different. Tools the fact that everybody
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jumped ON mcp is. Clear nobody has the confidence to, go,
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oh we'll go it. Alone we're all trying to find
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standards in inter interapt with each. Other. Yeah BUT i
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mean even EVEN mcp has. Limitations AND i have thoughts on,
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that And i'm tired And i'm just gonna say WHAT i.
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Think Oh, NO mtcp definitely has some. Issues there's no
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two ways about. That but let me wrap up With john. Here,
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john thanks you so much for your, comment and the
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copy of Music coba is on its way to. You
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and if you'd like a copy Of Music, COBE i
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write a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot
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and if you comment there and every read it on the,
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show we'll send you a copy Of Music. Koba And music.
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To Code by is still going. Strong twenty two tracks
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to help you get in the zone and focus twenty
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five minutes each to coincide with The pomodor, method and
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they will help.
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YOU i actually bought the first. Ones yeah a long
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times years.
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Ago, yeah it was only three AND i did A,
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KICKSTARTER i did.
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THREE i got the. THREE i still have THE mp
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three is somewhere in my junk drawer of one.
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Drive, well now you can get the whole collection IN
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mp three flak en. Wave so you can go to
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music To code by dot net for that or you,
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know you could just send us a comment or leave a.
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Comment, yeah, absolutely and reading on the show you'll get
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a copy of MUSIC o.
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Bye, yeah all, Right So i'm going to introduce.
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You for real areas here we go That i'm introducing.
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It, yeah that voice that you've been listening to the
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can who it is Is Seph wares and he works
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in THE ai platform group At. Microsoft he received his bachelor's.
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Degree that's, it that's your. Title Now i'm going to
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talk about your education because that's the part of your.
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Bio we see his bachelors and computer science at you
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n L v saying place that Guy fieri got his.
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Degree we were. Partners he's a he's a machine learning master.
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Absolutely with a minor in mathematics and complete his master's
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great at The university Of utah and the field of
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computer science And. SETH i have a picture that BECAUSE
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i was in the front row at the build AND
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i took a picture of.
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You oh what WAS i? Doing? Well you you opened the.
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Show you came out and, SAID i Am seth and you,
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know with with somebody, else AND i DON'T i didn't recognize.
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Her BUT i took a picture of you two and
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here it. Is oh my, gosh That's. Kadasha, yeah she
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is delightful human. Beings SO i sent this To, kelly my,
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wife you, know, yes of course she actually met you
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BEFORE i met.
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You, yes she did, so and, she.
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You, know she says back to me and she, says
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that's a great. Picture but who is that black lady
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With Ricky?
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Martin but, WOW i do get more. Beautiful AND i, said,
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again this is the medium for me to say these
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kinds of. THINGS i am getting more. Beautiful look at the.
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Picture your name is not on the, screen it's it's her. Last,
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yeah so she wouldn't know and she didn't recognize.
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You that is so. Funny then WHEN.
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I told, her she, says, oh, yes that is.
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YEAH i actually owe her a. Call she called me
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the other day AND i haven't called. Back, oh, okay she's,
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delightful she. Called she checks up on. Me she does. That, yeah,
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yeah so. Nice well you do need. Supervision it is.
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True my wife has had me now for twenty two ish,
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years and so during THE covid she may be. Tired
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during THE.
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Covid, times she reached out to friends of mine and
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hers that she hadn't talked to in years and, Said,
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hey you know, What i'm just calling BECAUSE i want
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to check.
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In it was.
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GREAT i don't want, anything you, KNOW i just wanted to, Say, Hi.
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GOSH i wish the niceness would rub off on other. People,
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yeah it's not working. Right all.
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Right so we're talking about agentic, hey AND i got
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to tell, You i'm blown away by WHAT i saw.
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HERE i, MEAN i know that there have been other
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agents and products that work with agency and all that,
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stuff and the guys From manet have been into, it,
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right but they all said the same. Thing it's, Like,
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Wow microsoft is kind of catching up to what these
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guys have been. Doing AND i hope they dominate because
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they have the, power, Right microsoft has the power Of
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azure and all of these. Things and WHEN i learned ABOUT,
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mcp we've been talking about anybody who's listened to the
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last six, shows oh, yeah knows about this about the,
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okay is it.
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Model model context context.
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Protocol so this is the protocol by which agents can
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talk to your resources to do things like talk to
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YOUR sql, server talk To azure resources and all that.
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Stuff and you can just tell it to go do, things,
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yes and it will figure them.
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Out.
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Yes the combination of AN llm like get Hub copilot
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AND mcp connections to other resources just blows my. Mind
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it changes the.
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Game, Yeah i'd love to get more low level, though
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so folks have an understanding of what an agent actually
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is because there is This what happened was and you
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were there with me for fifteen. Years i've been in
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this space for fifteen. Years nobody, cared and then we
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flip from nobody cared to this stuff is like jungle,
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magic or this stuff is like going to throw you
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into outer space or.
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So we didn't have to create the. Models, yeah that
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was the hard.
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Thing it's. True but but what happened is we kind
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of missed the in between part Of, hey let's explain
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what these things are doing and why it's actually. Useful
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because there's a THERE'S i don't want. To as you,
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know we had SEVERAL ai winters because of the over,
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hype AND i AM i am concerned that if we
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overhype too much that there's going to be a correction
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when there really doesn't need to be because it actually
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this time does do qualitatively cool. Stuff, yes and that's
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What i'm worried. ABOUT i, mean the winters were mostly
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induced by the fact that there was a limited utility
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what was being made, exactly and there was a limited
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of computational power to actually make the model the thing
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we wanted them. To hinton's famous papers actually the paper
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talking about backpropagation SAYING i can't do with this equipment
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in like nineteen eighty four mm. Hmmm and then In
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suskovar does off that paper in two thousand and nine
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and they start working on the image net. Problem, yes
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and those models are quite simple as compared to the
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ones that are now FOR. LMS i, MEAN i can
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get into the architecture and stuff of. It they're just much.
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Bigger and the thing about the thing about neural networks
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of that size Is i've spoken To Turing award winners about,
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like how do you shape these actual? Models to do
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the things you, Want and the reality is we don't
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really have a good understanding or. Explanation but what happens
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00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:51.320
is they're innovations that come out like a transformer model
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with attention that was really designed to do translation that,
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somehow when you made it, bigger learned language, well presented
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language in a form that you could anthropomorphize. Correct and
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that's that's the Part richard does not like at. All
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the thing about it is is WHEN i picture these
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00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:15.360
things in my, head it's like the matrix for, me
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00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:19.879
Where i'm picturing like there's, weights multiplying vectors and then
297
00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.720
going over some kind of smoothing function to, remove you,
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00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:27.679
know the linearities so that these scenes can predict complex.
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00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.440
Things but in the, end all these things are doing
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00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.919
is you're getting a string of words that are broken
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up into vectors that get passed in and multiplied by
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the transformer model to figure out how these things are,
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00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:45.840
related pushed through a giant neural network multiple, times and
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00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:49.279
the output is a giant vector of the entire space
305
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.759
with a probably distribution that says which token should you
306
00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:55.600
put out? Next so when it looks like it's, typing
307
00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:59.200
it isn't it's just going back through the, model and
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that's what these things are. Doing and as, programmers the
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only thing we can control is what goes in the
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front the. Prompt and that's the beefy, bit right that
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people don't. Understand at that, point when we first started
312
00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:17.919
doing this, stuff it was magical for. Chat, Yeah but
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00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:21.840
then early, on about maybe like six months into, it
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folks were starting to use these things for something that
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00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:27.279
we liked to THAT i like to call intent. Mapping
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00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.360
Cassie brevy AND i worked together for a couple of
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00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:32.600
years and that's what we called, it where we would
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00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:35.480
make THE lm like look at a block of text and,
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00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:39.720
say is this question a support or a sales? Question
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00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.600
and it was at that point that these, things because
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00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:47.159
we allowed them to decide is it a support or
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00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:50.879
a sales? Question when the code, branched those things all
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00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:53.679
of a sudden were imbued with this notion OF i
324
00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.360
can make a CHOICE lm on what this thing. Is
325
00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:02.559
and at that point those things became, agents, yes and
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00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.720
and and because we trusted them to answer our. Questions. Yeah.
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00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.400
Yeah but but but nottice that WHEN i was doing this,
328
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:13.720
ENGINEERING i narrowed the task to very specific you will
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00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:18.920
say either support or, sales and that's. It and what
330
00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:21.359
that did is it allowed me to create a prompt
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00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.119
that made it so that any user input that we
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00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.400
put in, it it would tell me support or sales every.
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00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.680
Time and my code had an if statement if support do,
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00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.920
this if sales do, this, right and that at that,
335
00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.640
point that is the most simplistic way of thinking about an.
336
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.319
Agent when AN lm has the has the ability to
337
00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:45.039
choose reason overset of data and then act on the
338
00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:50.240
reasoning you've. Generated and effectively that became a squishy programming
339
00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:56.160
control structure and that's what an agent is. Fundamentally but you're,
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00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.039
like but it's got to be more than. That seth
341
00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:00.680
what about the tools? Stuff at that people are, like,
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00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.680
well let's do structured output so that it could output adjacent.
343
00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:07.960
Thing and if we can output adjacent, thing why can't
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00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:12.319
we output adjacent Thing that says this function with these.
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00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:16.359
Parameters and at that point those things became tools and
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00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:20.200
now instead of supporter, sales it, said run this function
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00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:25.720
with these. Parameters and that is the extent of all
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00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:28.519
of the, magic sauce of all of anything.
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00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.720
Agentic NOW i want to say something Here, seth you
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00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.359
are among some of the most brilliant people That i've ever.
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00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:36.240
Met, oh thank.
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00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.359
You richard is one of. Them you are one of.
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00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.680
Them but the other people are like dev express. People,
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00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:44.720
Yeah Mark miller And Richard morris like these guys and. You,
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00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.279
NOW i want to tell the listeners if you don't
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00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:50.880
know Who seth. Is, seth you had an open SOURCE
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00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:57.240
AI mL library Before microsoft hired. You, yeah before they
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00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:01.319
Had AZURE. Ai you had this open source. Library we
359
00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:03.240
did a thing about it on D NR tv that
360
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:03.680
showed it to.
361
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:05.920
ME i didn't understand. It, yeah of COURSE i kind of.
362
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.880
Did but but you were doing.
363
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:12.400
That you've been doing this longer Than microsoft has been doing.
364
00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:14.400
It way before it was. COOL i was doing before
365
00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:18.279
it was. Cool the secret, sauce, though is machine learning
366
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.680
has been happening since nineteen fifty. Six Frank rosenblatt The,
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00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:24.960
perceptron which is the basic foundation OF.
368
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:28.440
Ski so that was the last, show righteen Fifty.
369
00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:32.839
Oh, hey, yeah let's call back To Yesterye, frank we've missed.
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00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.839
Now but the reality is That microsoft's been DOING ai
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00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.759
in the form of machine learning for a very long.
372
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.720
Time WHAT i was doing IS i was trying to
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00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.799
bring it to the dot net community BECAUSE i recognize
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00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.720
that there is a space for algorithms which are learned
375
00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:52.960
instead of, programmed AND i thought that IF i could
376
00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.160
do a. Thing OBVIOUSLY i haven't kept up on that
377
00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:57.319
for a while because it was just. Me BUT i
378
00:19:57.319 --> 00:19:59.680
implement a whole set of stuff to make that. Easier
379
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:02.519
but my goal has been for the last you, know
380
00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:05.519
fifteen twenty, YEARS i want people to know exactly what
381
00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:08.440
these things are, doing so that with, confidence you can
382
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:09.799
make them do even cooler.
383
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.960
Things, right, yeah, Yeah and so now you're At, microsoft
384
00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:15.079
you're working on THE ai.
385
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:19.400
Stuff that's The azure. Stuff that's. Right The Italians channel,
386
00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:22.200
Nine oh, yeah, No channel nine was. Great you had
387
00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.000
such a good. TIME i really. GOOD i love. That
388
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:25.799
and then somebody figured out actually knew them all, stuff
389
00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:27.440
and it was. Important it's, like you come with, me you,
390
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:29.720
know CAN i be? HONEST i ACTUALLY I actually it
391
00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:32.319
was different than that because AS i started doing The
392
00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:36.160
channel nine, stuff the reason WHY i knew what questions
393
00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.519
asked is BECAUSE i already knew their content AND i
394
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:40.920
knew how to make them talk about and make things.
395
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:44.519
Sing but people just started saying stuff to me, Like,
396
00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:46.720
seth don't you ever get tired of all this technical?
397
00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:49.880
Stuff And i'm, like oh, man MAYBE i should move
398
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.640
into something more. Technical maybe. Maybe so THEN i moved
399
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.880
into DevRel FOR aiml and Then John, montgomery who was
400
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:01.480
A cvp Of young he was, Like, seth come work
401
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:03.519
for me in THE ai core.
402
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.920
Group so that's what you obviously knew your, pedigree, right
403
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:07.559
they knew they.
404
00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.240
Did nobody, knew LIKE i THINK i think people record
405
00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:14.240
like see me and like Because i'm pretty jovial and
406
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.440
and BUT I i.
407
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.440
Think you don't come across as AN ai.
408
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:21.720
Scientist, NO i KNOW i do. Not and but if
409
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.000
you looked at, me obviously we've said this many, Times
410
00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:27.440
i'm very beautiful in, appearance and people would not Like mark.
411
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:31.039
Exactly people wouldn't, know BUT I i really have been
412
00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.599
doing machine learning. Forever and, again my primary goal is
413
00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:38.000
for people to understand at a profound level what these things.
414
00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:41.559
Are and to, me they are basically a new programming
415
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.200
control structure which can Take english and point you to
416
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:50.200
what to run. Next, yeah fairly still Constrained, english, yes, well,
417
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.880
no even Regular english with AN, lm because if you
418
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:55.079
can you can type into AN ll m like Bad.
419
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:58.279
English and for, EXAMPLE i did a demo at my
420
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:01.519
talk two days ago WHERE i showed him the supporter
421
00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:04.519
sales thing AND i, said my tent is, broken, yo
422
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.079
AND i spelled it wrong and it said support AND
423
00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:10.880
i was, like what's the borst tent in the, world?
424
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.480
Yo and it was like burst and not b e
425
00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:16.200
r S t BECAUSE i fat fingered it. Right and
426
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:21.680
then it was, like, uh. Sales notice that because it's
427
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:25.039
a large language, model it's able to reason over the
428
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:29.599
text and then create the output that we. Want and
429
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:31.920
if that output is a, function then it tells you
430
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.599
what to run. Next so it.
431
00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:37.039
Didn't understand, bursts so it figured that you really meant worst.
432
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.599
A best, Best, yeah, okay best b e r S.
433
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.440
T and it was, like even if it was, worst
434
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:47.440
it's still a sales and it still was able to
435
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.519
figure it. Out and and that was with me, again
436
00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:53.839
and THEN i. CAN'T i don't know how to emphasize
437
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.799
this is. Enough, basically you get a control structure that
438
00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:58.799
gives You english and tells you what things run. Next
439
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:02.200
WHAT mcp does and whether it does it well or
440
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.799
not is neither here nor. THERE i don't think it's
441
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:09.000
Necessary what it does is it allows you to query
442
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.000
what functions can you? Call and what it does is
443
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.400
it maps those into the tool calls that are available
444
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.440
to the L, m and then it can call. It
445
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:21.839
but you can do that With swagger AND. Rest, sure,
446
00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:23.039
yeah but it's.
447
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:27.079
Not it doesn't have the the almost it does.
448
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.680
Reasoning it, does but it does because the reasoning happens
449
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.799
in THE. Lm and what it outputs is it outputs
450
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:36.400
what functions Are swagger AND rest don't have that they,
451
00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:38.240
don't but you don't need it BECAUSE, mcp if you
452
00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:40.799
look at, it is basically Like. Swagger it tells you
453
00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.759
what tools are, available and it's LIKE, rest and it
454
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:45.680
tells you how to call. Them, Right and the thing
455
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:47.920
THAT i like about like those kind of and OPEN,
456
00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:50.880
api which has been NOW i think the Next swagger is, that,
457
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:54.400
RIGHT i don't. Know but with OPEN api and WITH
458
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.359
rest you're able to do the same things but with
459
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:01.359
the benefit of like twenty years of security, handling with,
460
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:06.880
headers WITH, ooth with token, negotiation et. Cetera and so that's,
461
00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:09.920
why like IF mcp gets you, going like WHEN i
462
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.039
USE vb, six, right it got me. GOING i loved
463
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:14.720
it because it was able to. Get but then when
464
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.640
you were, LIKE i need to be more memory, CONSCIOUS
465
00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:19.599
i needed to be more. Careful then you can skip
466
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:22.759
down a layer if you if you want. To but,
467
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:25.799
AGAIN i love THAT mcp has gotten people thinking about.
468
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.279
It but the reasoning doesn't happen WITH. Mcp, no it's,
469
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:32.359
yeah it just tells you what function are. Next but
470
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:35.119
the magic that makes it look good is once it
471
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:38.000
runs the, function there's a thread that has like what
472
00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:40.599
the QUESTION i? Asked it asks for a Function i'm
473
00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:43.319
like pointing like people can. See and then when it executes,
474
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:45.920
out it puts that function return call back on the
475
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.640
thread and THE lm is called again with that on its,
476
00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.000
thread and then it comes with the. Answer and so
477
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:56.039
that actually going out from THE ai space is effectively
478
00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:01.559
bridging the gap FROM ai reasoning to perative or functional. Code.
479
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:04.160
Right how we MAKE sky? IT i get? It, NO
480
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:05.720
i mean it's NOT i don't even think IT'S.
481
00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:09.680
Sky and it may not be the best security wise right,
482
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:11.680
now but it's clearly where everybody wants to.
483
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.359
Go, yeah it's because it simplifies. It but my sense
484
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.519
is that as you see, This i'm the prognostica, here,
485
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:20.200
right BECAUSE i like doing. That as you see this thing,
486
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:24.880
maturing it's going to be indistinguishable from rest right and discovery.
487
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:28.960
Protocols that it's the way the embracement OF mcp says to,
488
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:31.440
me everybody wants to interrupt with everybody. ELSE i fact
489
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.839
that we could come up with a better way to do,
490
00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:35.839
it and in fact already. Have we could just be
491
00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.480
publishing APIs for crying. Out, Yeah And i'm telling, you
492
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.680
like we we had a phase At microsoft and bless
493
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.640
Our hearts where we went full. Wisdole, yes and.
494
00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:47.759
That's what The southern people say about the town drunk
495
00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:48.519
bless his.
496
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.279
Heart, yeah bless our. Heart But wisdole was the same,
497
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:57.279
thing the same kind of desire to to abstract over.
498
00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.480
Primitives and then we went back to primitive still being
499
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:06.759
WSD l Or Web Service Discovery language. Wisdom does that sound? Familiar,
500
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:09.440
friends done done? Dumb and so What i'm telling you
501
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:11.079
is that and some of the things you saw with
502
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.400
N a Web the reason why this is such a cool.
503
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:16.400
Space if we haven't talked about AN a web on the,
504
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:18.880
show oh, really yeah this WEEK i haven't.
505
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.400
EITHER i started looking at. It but the intuition here
506
00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:25.839
is if you can language do stuff and then call
507
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:29.839
stuff and then language do stuff on the, Out like
508
00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:32.160
what you if you hook this up to the in
509
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.559
language tool, stuff, Right you're? Fired, yeah you're my problem
510
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:37.279
WITH nl. WEBS i keep, thinking why are you talking About?
511
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.720
Dutch people's confused The dutch. Web but hopefully that helps
512
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:44.599
BECAUSE i really want to emphasize that once you know
513
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:46.200
that that's what it's doing at a low level and
514
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:48.640
you play with it that, way it changes the way
515
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:51.359
you think about These. SURE i had a journalist talk
516
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.240
to me and, say, Hey, SETH i get a lot
517
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.519
of questions about SHOULD i trust these? Things and my
518
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.599
response surprised. HIM i, SAID i don't trust these. Things,
519
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:02.000
no don't be. Silly that's WHY i program them the
520
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:05.720
WAY i. DO i restrict what they have to. DO
521
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.680
i restrict the tool calls that they, have and then
522
00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:12.599
when the tool calls are, CALLED i write the code
523
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:16.480
that the tool that what the tool responds. With because
524
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:19.519
all these things are effectively becoming part of the prompt
525
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:23.519
for the next tokens to. Generate and that is when
526
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:27.079
you get that, Intuition you're, like, oh that MEANS i
527
00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:29.640
can do this ANYWAY i want to ye.
528
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.240
And that's that's WHERE i think we've been talking about
529
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:37.759
this this week, too that the attributes of the program
530
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.319
or the future are going to be imaginations over technical
531
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:47.759
probsolutely imagination mean and we may be held back a
532
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:49.680
little bit by what we think we can do and
533
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:52.559
what we can't. Do but somebody who doesn't have that
534
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.880
kind of you, know, limitation self, limitation will be able
535
00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:57.920
to do amazing.
536
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:00.759
Things. Yeah like if you watch the keynote on day,
537
00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:05.440
two you Saw Amanda foster And elijah on stage talking
538
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.839
to this thing that it was executing a bunch of
539
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:11.279
stuff on their. BEHALF i think it was. Software it
540
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:13.839
was literally software BECAUSE i KNOW i, WROTE i wrote
541
00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:16.359
THE i wrote the website and the back. End amanda
542
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:18.920
worked on the, agent And elijah worked on the on the.
543
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.480
Evaluations but the thing about it is it was actually running.
544
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:25.559
Live that thing was actually happening. Live and one of
545
00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:27.400
the things that we had is once you get into
546
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.839
a single, agent it makes, sense but when you get
547
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.400
into multi, agent you wonder, like, well what is the
548
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:36.880
interface between one agent and? Another and the surprising thing
549
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:41.880
is that the interface is actually language, weird which is, weird,
550
00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:44.640
Right so for, Example i'll give you, example the voice
551
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:46.519
agent that we, made and if you watch the, keynote
552
00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:48.839
you'll see her talking to. It the voice agent is
553
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:51.839
using THE gpt four oh Real TIME, api which has
554
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:54.839
the also has the ability to issue function. Calls, Okay
555
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:57.319
and so what we did is we collected the list
556
00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:01.359
of azure Ai foundry agents that we made Andree foundry
557
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:04.480
AND i just loaded them up and then she picked
558
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.240
the ones she wanted because she was working on. Them
559
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:09.720
and what it did is it mapped those other agents
560
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:14.119
as tool calls interesting to the voice. Agent but you're, like,
561
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:16.920
well what did you pass to the? Agent, well the
562
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:20.960
agents themselves when you run, them have this property called additional,
563
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:24.680
instructions which means you can augment their system prompt and
564
00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:27.240
then that's. It that's all you can. Do so WHAT
565
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.640
i did IS i mapped all of those agents as tool,
566
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.440
calls gave it a function. Name you're back to sales
567
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.000
and support, again that's all this, IS i. Know and
568
00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:40.039
THEN i, said you passed voice agent additional instructions and
569
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.279
ask it for what you wanted to. Do so the
570
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:47.759
voice agent then is taking the initial requests and assessing
571
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:49.519
it to go which agent to go, to back to
572
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:51.880
your sales and. Support that's. Right then taking the portion
573
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:54.440
of the requests that makes sense for that, agent plus
574
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.640
the additional, instruction let's send it on. Down but it's
575
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:00.519
even more than. That it actually asks, it can you
576
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:03.079
help me with? This and we were me And amanda
577
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.000
because it's like in the two in the, morning we're
578
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.039
looking at this, stuff like because we're on this stuff all.
579
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:09.200
Night we looked at the law because we Ad jason
580
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:14.920
printed out everything and we could, see, uh image agent system,
581
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.359
instructions you are to generate a blah blah blah. Question
582
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:21.000
can you generate an? Image it was Actual english and
583
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:23.680
we were, like holy, cow this is this is amazing
584
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:26.640
and the software being polite to. Software, yes it.
585
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.480
Was really cook but but it's nothing. New if you
586
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.640
look at the S MT smtp protocol when you connect
587
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.480
When i'm When gmail connects to an S mvp, server it,
588
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:41.960
says you, know, hello And I'm Carl, Franklin carl frank
589
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:47.000
and THE smtp server actually writes, back, Hello Carl, franklin
590
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:48.240
nice to meet.
591
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.640
You, yes but we're not talking part of the. Protocol
592
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:53.480
it's Not eliza in This, NO i, KNOW.
593
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:55.759
I, know but but you know that those kind of
594
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:58.160
friendly things have been.
595
00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:59.640
Protocols for a long. Time but the difference is that
596
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:02.440
the only things are being generated by the through the
597
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:05.279
agency of AN. LLM i get. It it's, big big.
598
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:12.200
CHANGE i do question if if if the politeness affects
599
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:16.400
the prompt. Results, yes it absolutely. Does And i'll tell.
600
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:18.880
You i'll tell you what happens And i'll tell. You
601
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:21.480
so there was a part of the demo Where amanda
602
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.960
generates an image for a hackathon and they AND i
603
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:28.559
don't think they understood because someone backstage is, like, hey
604
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.359
can you change the image to something more? Happy and we're, like,
605
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:36.039
no it generates it every. Time it's it's doing it
606
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:38.640
on its. Own and a man is, like but we
607
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:42.440
can change it by telling, it please make the image more,
608
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:48.319
happy and like we made that change in The english
609
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:50.839
and the and not in the voice controller because that's
610
00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:52.559
the thing we talked, to but in the literal little
611
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.720
agent the, customer and it called, it called. It and
612
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:58.400
then it was, like and now everyone's happy at the.
613
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:01.079
Hackathon and and because everyone thought we were using some
614
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:05.319
like pre baked image and, no it's not every, time
615
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:08.039
and then we did, that and then it was really cool.
616
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:09.319
All, RIGHT i think we got to take a, break
617
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.079
so we will be right back after these very important
618
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:16.880
messages don't go. Away did you know there's a dot
619
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:21.680
net on aws. Community follow the social media, blogs YouTube
620
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:25.519
influencers and open source projects and add your own. Voice
621
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:29.279
get plugged into the dot net on aws community at
622
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:32.920
aws Dot amazon dot, com slash dot, net.
623
00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:36.799
And we're.
624
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.440
Back it's dot net. Rocks I'm Carl, Franklin I'm Richard,
625
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:42.359
campbell And Seth warez is. Here we are JUST i
626
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:45.279
feel like we could be talking for, hours hours an,
627
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:48.680
hour so much to talk, about but we're talking about
628
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:54.359
agentic coding and. PROGRAMMING i Took microsoft Agent mode In
629
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.119
Visual studio for a spin yesterday to go.
630
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:58.440
Good, okay it went really.
631
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:02.119
WELL i gave it some tasked to create some stuff
632
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:05.039
THAT i knew how to do BECAUSE i wanted to.
633
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:08.519
See but there was one very tricky thing that it
634
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:11.839
was intuitive for it to, do but it didn't. Work
635
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:17.240
so it's not like agent mode is going to compile
636
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:18.160
your code.
637
00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:18.400
And see if it.
638
00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:20.880
Works it's just going to do what it thinks is. Right, yes,
639
00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:23.200
SORRY i didn't meet us the ord. Thing it's going
640
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:26.279
to use what it assesses to be the correct. Answer
641
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:29.920
so but WHEN i went and told, it, no that's.
642
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:33.480
Wrong this doesn't work on this particular. Object you're going
643
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.240
to have to subclass, this it, said oh. Okay AND
644
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:38.759
i didn't tell it what to. Do ALL i had
645
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:40.640
to say was you're going to have to subclass this,
646
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:42.200
subject and it figured it.
647
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.319
Out it's pretty cool. Stuff one of the things that
648
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:48.160
you're going to find is that if you ever have
649
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.680
an agentic thing that is not quite doing what you
650
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:55.720
want in, general from an engineering, perceptive for, me it
651
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:59.480
means that they've overstuffed what they want a single agent to.
652
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:05.839
Do so the actual engineering problem becomes agent specificity versus agent.
653
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.800
Count and that's an engineering, issue, right because if you
654
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.880
have too many, agents it might cost, more or it
655
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:15.760
might it might work. Slower if you have too few,
656
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:18.480
agents the recall isn't going to be as, good, Right
657
00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:20.960
and so the actual engineering problem is that it turns
658
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:23.639
out the agent you use was. Able once you specify
659
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:25.760
down a little, bit it made things. Better but if
660
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:28.159
you think you're going to make a single agent with
661
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.440
like a two page prompt with fifteen, tools it's not
662
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.559
going to do the right. Thing and that's the trade
663
00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:36.519
off from an engineering pler because now that you know
664
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.840
you have to make it, specific you have to limit
665
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:42.800
its tool because it's an interesting switch from what build
666
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:45.039
up lms the first, place which is making them bigger and.
667
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:46.800
Bigger now we're, going, hey if you wanted me to respond.
668
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:48.960
Better but see that's the thing, small that's a. Thing
669
00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:52.199
it's not THE lms that are getting, right it's the
670
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:55.760
tasks that you're assigning THE. Lm so it's THE. Lm
671
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:58.000
let's just fix THE lm for. One let's just SAY gbd. Four,
672
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:01.880
oh like that models, Huge but like you are gonna
673
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:05.320
narrow the agent's task to your job is to send
674
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.920
an email to the right. Place and then here are
675
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:12.760
the tools send email or delete email or. Whatever those
676
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.159
are the only. Things that thing is gonna be very
677
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:16.960
good at sending, emails and it's gonna be very good
678
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:18.679
to be, like, HEY i need to send an emails
679
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.760
to whom please type or tell me the. Email and
680
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:25.719
then it's gonna be, like please validate the. Email what
681
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.440
content do you? Want because it's trying to fill out
682
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:31.800
the parametery of the function call because that's what the
683
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:35.199
prompt wants it to. Do and that's what's. Happening so
684
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:37.679
for your, case LIKE i worry like even in some
685
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:39.719
of the tools that we, make maybe At, microsoft maybe
686
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:43.679
they're too broad and that's where you find this notion of.
687
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:47.400
Hallucination now people aren't gonna like, this but the elem's
688
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:50.920
job is to actually make up. Tokens if you give
689
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.559
it too broad a, thing it's gonna make stuff. Up
690
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:56.280
if you get it to if you give it a narrow,
691
00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:58.800
thing it's gonna make the right stuff. Up BUT i
692
00:35:58.840 --> 00:35:59.519
thought that's.
693
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:01.920
What the point of the agent THAT i access in
694
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.920
visual studio, is and it's NOT gpd four oh with
695
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:08.920
this broad uh set of knowledge or. Whatever i'm, Sorry,
696
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:11.360
RICHARD i didn't mean to use the. KNOWLEDGE i have
697
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:14.400
to apologize every TIME i answerpomorphize than LL.
698
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:16.760
M but he is. Right thank you keep him on. Track, yeah,
699
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:20.360
No i'm. SORRY i apologize now ALREADY i. Apologize please
700
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:23.480
be with the pigmies In New. Guinea. Yeah.
701
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:27.519
Amen but it narrows the focus to truss the things
702
00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:31.159
that are in. Code so theoretically it should know everything
703
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:34.119
about the Language i'm using the, markup you, know If
704
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:37.280
i'm Using blazer or. Whatever so it's got to UNDERSTAND
705
00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:39.360
html and JavaScript and all Those you're.
706
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:42.280
Gonna love this. Answer it knows. Nothing it knows only
707
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:44.679
what You i'm trained on. It, well, yeah so there
708
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:46.280
there is a, yeah so that's WHAT i. Mean, Yeah
709
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.679
so there's certain models that are actually Like, codex for,
710
00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:52.400
example is perfectly trained on, code but it doesn't know
711
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:57.039
like in my, head it doesn't know the. Languages it
712
00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:00.480
knows that if you give it this sequence of programming or,
713
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:03.760
questions it's going to return this. Sequence let me just
714
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:04.800
add this to the.
715
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.440
EQUATION i did the same problem with chatchipt AND i
716
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:11.639
did get the right. Answer, yes, so but the thing
717
00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:15.760
that was The Microsoft agent mode In Visual studio did
718
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:17.320
not give me the right answer.
719
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:17.960
Because it's a different.
720
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:21.679
Model, Right but wouldn't it be narrowed down to just
721
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:25.639
the programming stuff like why did CHAT gpt with vast
722
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:29.159
programming and learning that it did on all this data
723
00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:31.159
provide a better answer.
724
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:37.239
Because models are stochastic, processes and the thing about one
725
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:39.679
model versus another is one will do better with the
726
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:41.880
same prompt or. Not and so that's when he gets
727
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:47.159
the college. Words that's five dollars five dollar. Word it's
728
00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:50.679
a stochastic process because the output vector gives you the
729
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:55.119
probability distribution and samples according to that probably. Distribution so some,
730
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:57.480
models depending on let's just say that use clawed in that,
731
00:37:57.519 --> 00:37:59.679
one or they are going to do different things and
732
00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:02.840
it all so the promptly makes a, difference and the
733
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.360
tools that it has really makes a. Difference and that's
734
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:08.400
where it sounds like an excuse to. Me it does
735
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:11.639
and here's what they should have. Done just like we
736
00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:15.760
have unit tests for, code we should have quote unit
737
00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:19.800
tests for. Agents and those things are called. Evaluations and
738
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:23.000
so An azree foundery we have a bunch of evaluations for,
739
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:27.199
example is it follow the right? Task is it? Coherent
740
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.920
is it? Relevant is it? Grounded we also have these
741
00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:34.840
other agents whose job is to attack our. Agents they're
742
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.239
called the red teaming, agent and its job is to
743
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:40.159
literally send garbage at it to see how it. Does
744
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:43.239
and so that is the unit. Test and the difference
745
00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:46.159
between a unit tests and an evaluation is that an
746
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:49.840
evaluation you need to give it enough examples to be
747
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:53.119
satisfied that you're going to be. Okay it needs to
748
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:57.199
be probabilistically, relevant, Yes and then once you're okay with,
749
00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.840
it when you put it in, production you monitor it
750
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.679
with the same evails and send alerts when it goes.
751
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:05.840
Off the rails diverts because when you're looking, at for,
752
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:10.119
example regulated, industries regular, industries like if you make a,
753
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:12.239
mistake you got to report, It but they also want
754
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.360
to know how do you fix these? Things and that's
755
00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:17.280
probably more, important and that's the part of regulated. Industries
756
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.360
when you use this s uff you can see where
757
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:20.760
it went wrong and you fix it and then you go.
758
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:23.079
Back SO i think the real answer, is, hey we
759
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.320
just launched this, shit give us some time.
760
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.719
Time i'm not part of that. Team they mean they
761
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:29.840
could have made it, better.
762
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.599
Maybe BUT i mean it literally just came, out like you,
763
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:33.840
know so and.
764
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:36.639
They'll learn a lot, because, like for, example the question
765
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:38.960
you asked it maybe something they never. Anticipated that's, Right,
766
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:41.920
yes so there's Learn so there's some alert that probably
767
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.719
fired during THE evls that's, saying, Oh carl did not
768
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:48.880
get this thing that he, wanted and so they update
769
00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:50.800
the prompt or a new tools AND i expect.
770
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:54.760
That. Yeah, so BUT i love the, idea and you,
771
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.719
know talking To Scott hunter and some other, people the
772
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:01.000
possibilities of things That i'm to do with it in
773
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:06.679
the real world from my customers is going to blow their.
774
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:10.559
Minds, Yes and in terms of like the stuff you can,
775
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:16.360
do it's the ceiling is very high because the biggest
776
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:20.159
barrier to programming isn't like the new algorithms or the
777
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:23.760
new it's like literally people using this stuff and having
778
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:26.840
the like like someone Putting bob in the age. Field you,
779
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:29.599
know that's the kind of dumb stuff that we write
780
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:33.639
most of our code. For right ll ms together in
781
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:37.159
an agentic, mode are going to soften that so that
782
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:39.480
we don't have like why do we need a web form?
783
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:41.760
ANYMORE i can do like my name Is seth and
784
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:43.559
you can use my current location to find the.
785
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:45.960
Address, now you're absolutely, right and YOU i is going to,
786
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:51.199
change yeah from you. Know but but users are trained on,
787
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:54.199
forms aren't. They, yes you're going to have to train
788
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:58.800
a user to all. Right so here's here's a. Nightmarebox nightmare.
789
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:03.119
Scenario a textbox to tell the application what you, want
790
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:05.599
and somebody comes in and, says, hey you want A turkey.
791
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:07.960
Club i'm going to The. Delhi, Yeah i'll have A turkey.
792
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:10.440
Club and that's Writing turkey, club you know in the
793
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:13.880
in the. Thing you know WHAT i mean, like there's there's.
794
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:15.960
You now you have to train the users as to
795
00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:19.119
what to say or what to, type and that's the.
796
00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:25.639
Beauty. THOUGH i think given a properly built, agent that
797
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:28.840
turkey sandwich is just gonna be noise to. It like
798
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:32.000
it's gonna look for the things that will force the
799
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:36.639
linear algebra and the calculus to produce the right next.
800
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.480
Time, yeah and then there's gotta be validation and. Verification
801
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:41.360
did you really mean to say? This is this what
802
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:41.880
you really?
803
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.360
Want you? Know and ALSO i think the software is
804
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:46.800
fairly good at recognizing a contact shift and SAYING i
805
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:49.039
don't THINK i was supposed to listen to, that, yeah.
806
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:51.760
Right and Also i'm assuming that you're speaking to it
807
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:53.840
right when you really need to be, Typing like you
808
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:56.400
don't Want bob From engineering to pop his head in and,
809
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:59.280
say delete all records from, customers you, know.
810
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:04.039
DUDE i saw AN mcp server that was attached to
811
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.400
a file, system AND i was, like maybe let's not do. That,
812
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.480
yeah it seems like about on mind's. IDEA i remember
813
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:12.039
when the you, know the First amazon devices showed, up
814
00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:13.599
and right away it was, like send my porn collection
815
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:14.039
to my mother.
816
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:18.719
Joke oh my, gosh send one hundred pounds of cement
817
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:19.400
To Richard.
818
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:24.360
Campbell oh my, gosh so. Dumb but, yes BUT i
819
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:27.960
think LIKE i, Think LIKE i said. It it was
820
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:32.239
surprising to me how the the controller agent in this
821
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:37.400
case was communicating with other. Agents, yes that. Was and
822
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:39.239
then you, Know i'm not surprised by this stuff BECAUSE
823
00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:41.159
i know how it. Works, Right but that was the
824
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:43.679
part that was, Like, okay maybe there's something. Here, well
825
00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:46.599
and we get back to this whole like The battle
826
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:49.679
Of VISIBLE. Ai, yeah, right and we still haven't really
827
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:51.800
fixed in there all that. Problem, no there's no way
828
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.760
we can fix. That, well and that the Whole i've
829
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:57.400
read the anthropic paper on the reasoning models and what's
830
00:42:57.400 --> 00:43:00.559
actually going on. There it's calling itself right couple. Times,
831
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:03.000
well first it gets the, results and then it peaks
832
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:04.800
pieces of the results and feeds it back into it
833
00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:07.039
to say why WOULD i have said? This so it
834
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:10.119
literally is in reverse. Reasoning i've already decided what the answer,
835
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:11.639
is but let me break it down into pieces so
836
00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:13.360
it looks Like i'm thinking about. It, yeah that doesn't
837
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:14.960
seem to be a good way to do, it but
838
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.360
it makes people, happy, Right, well it doesn't make me,
839
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:19.840
happy well until you know what's going. On and it's
840
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:20.480
LIKE i just.
841
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:24.599
Read something in the news today that said THE ceo
842
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:27.239
Of anthropic admitted that he has no idea how this
843
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:28.719
stuff for but.
844
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:32.840
You, know maybe like in his, defense like there's certain
845
00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:35.280
things that CEOs do THAT i just don't want to
846
00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:37.360
know how to. Do, yeah you know What i'm, Saying
847
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:40.039
like there's only there's only so MANY i don't know
848
00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:41.840
if this is, true but there's only so much space
849
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.199
in my brain for things, nice, Right and it's LIKE
850
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:46.800
i have, seen like BECAUSE i work with a lot
851
00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:50.039
of our EVPs and CEOs and and all that, stuff
852
00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:52.800
and like And i've worked And i've talked to CEOs
853
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:57.000
and cvps and it's just like MAYBE i don't want
854
00:43:57.000 --> 00:43:59.360
to do. That, Yeah and and the fact that he
855
00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:04.320
doesn't know exactly how it works is, okay focus on
856
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:06.280
the right. Things. Yeah and the other thing that for,
857
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:10.039
me LIKE i mathematically know how these things, work BUT
858
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:12.639
i don't expect other people to just to. Me it's
859
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:15.320
just LIKE i love looking at like the beauty of
860
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:19.320
the mathematical structure of these things and trying to think
861
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:21.840
about why does this actually?
862
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:25.000
Work but you know, WHAT i feel better knowing that
863
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:25.800
as long AS sef.
864
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:31.519
Knows BUT i think this idea that that neural net
865
00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:37.679
is is essentially creating a jpeg of, language lossy compression
866
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.159
of language one hundred. Percent that is exactly. Right but
867
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:42.760
when we, say and the whole thing, is don't put
868
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:45.239
any too many pictures in, It, yeah you're just gonna
869
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:47.760
get a GREAT FUZD i. Know and then but but,
870
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:50.880
then but, then because these things are really good at,
871
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:54.800
sequences think of it as any. Sequence so we have
872
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:58.280
models And andrea found with that do protein. Sequencing, yeah,
873
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:01.519
well deep. Fault and if you think about, it you're, like,
874
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:04.280
well how could that? Work, well because again you're giving
875
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:06.599
it a sequence of, things and it's telling you the
876
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:09.239
next likely. Thing and then it's doing it in a
877
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:14.719
loop right while not end of line token or end
878
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:17.800
of thing. Token, right that's what it's doing and get
879
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:20.199
next probable. Words. Yeah and the thing about it is
880
00:45:20.440 --> 00:45:22.679
people will talk about the, temperature whether it makes it
881
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:27.079
more creative or. Whatever it's not making it more. Creative
882
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:31.880
it's basically squashing the output distribution so other things are more.
883
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:34.199
Likely and that's all it's. Doing and SO i hear
884
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:36.519
it's making it more. Creative, no it's. Not it's changing
885
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:39.159
the hand of the output. Distribution it'll make it, faster
886
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:42.639
but you'll get. Crap it's not even. Faster it's exactly
887
00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:46.239
the same. Speed it's just the probability distribution is warped
888
00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:48.719
so that if, like for, sure it's this, one if
889
00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:50.760
temper is, one it's like the probably is what it
890
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:52.800
it'll pick the, right it'll. Almost but if it's, different
891
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:55.960
there's other things that become more equally. Likely and so
892
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:59.719
it's chain of like this, token now this token it
893
00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:02.559
Becomes they say it's more, creative AND i hate. That
894
00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:07.719
why DO i hate? That? Richard it's more, exactly it's
895
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:09.559
literally just changing the output.
896
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:12.920
Distigue but, okay So joe, programmer, though do you think
897
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:15.920
they need to answer pomorphize this stuff in order to
898
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.400
talk about it or think about it in a in
899
00:46:18.440 --> 00:46:21.920
a way that they can use it correctly because everybody
900
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:24.000
falls into this. TRAP i mean we're, Humans.
901
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:27.480
Yeah like humans are funny. Creatures we will we will
902
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:29.880
pick up a rock and draw a smiley face on,
903
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:35.880
it and so. Happy it's such a happy. Rock it
904
00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:38.760
must have had a really good Dayne and now. Imagine
905
00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:41.639
but isn't THIS i WANT i have to think this
906
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:44.639
is what makes humans? Humans first, off paradolia is a survival.
907
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:47.639
Strategy the tendency to see, faces whether they're there or,
908
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:50.639
not means you were the first one to, run and
909
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.480
so the tiger probably didn't get. You so that's an evolved.
910
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:59.000
Trait absolutely, right it's. Paradolia but what if this whole
911
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:03.599
practice event memorphizing is the mechanism that led to us
912
00:47:03.639 --> 00:47:07.039
being able to, strategize like how you have to think
913
00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.239
like the animal to hunt the animal successfully with your limited.
914
00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:14.559
RESOURCE i, See and so that tendency again becomes a competitive.
915
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:17.199
Strategy you're more likely to survive because your hunting is.
916
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:20.639
Morphout not to mention, mythology, right, well in, mythos in
917
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:23.920
religion and all of these, things it's all about. Anthropomorphizing,
918
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:24.880
sure and not just.
919
00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:27.519
Why is the sky making loud noises?
920
00:47:27.559 --> 00:47:31.000
Shaming right As thor is sending lightning, thing that's because
921
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:31.760
he's angry with.
922
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:33.880
US i feel like we got to go the final
923
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:37.639
mile and somehow get into The roman spears because we
924
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:41.719
all think About roman, period, RIGHT i don't, Know but,
925
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.440
well actually that project the name for the project that
926
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:49.639
you Saw amanda And elijah Do we called it, sustinnao
927
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:53.199
which Is latin for, SUPPORT i support, nice, Okay and
928
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:55.440
SO i told him that and let's lie it for.
929
00:47:55.519 --> 00:48:03.000
Sales way to close the loop that was that was.
930
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:07.760
Amazing this is a quality. Show my job as co
931
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:12.920
host Of. Professionals the joke that's but, Yeah so again the,
932
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.559
key the key insight is think of these things as
933
00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:19.360
things that take. Language and if you have a prompt
934
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:22.039
that's narrow enough and a collection of tools that support the,
935
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:26.920
task it will tell you what consistent. Results, yeah, yeah
936
00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:30.960
That's these are the dimensions of a tool set for
937
00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:33.800
a group of programmers to be successful with correct they
938
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:35.719
just had to learn the dimensions of. It and the
939
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:38.320
joke THAT i, said is it like a switch statement
940
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:41.199
and if statement but. Huge So i'm going to try
941
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:43.639
to make it a thing and call it the giant swift.
942
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:49.239
Statement it's the swift for those that are. Swifties swift all.
943
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:58.760
RIGHT i figured out The latin for sales is.
944
00:48:55.400 --> 00:49:01.960
Isn't That italian full Of? Chicago oh my, gosh that's.
945
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:04.800
Hilarious but, yeah and so that that inside couple with
946
00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:07.480
the ability to evaluate them as unit with the unit
947
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:12.280
with the agentic. Unit tests should bring this all back
948
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:15.480
to quality instead of the schlop that people put. Out
949
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:17.719
sure they, are and THAT'S i mean the battle here
950
00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:20.639
is how do you measure? Quality, oh there's a way
951
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:23.679
to measure? It, yeah BECAUSE i keep being told this
952
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:25.760
THIS lm is better than THAT llm is, like how
953
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:28.559
how would you measure? That what makes that? True so
954
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:30.559
what they do is they give it a bunch of,
955
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:33.239
stuff like, like they feed it stuff and then they.
956
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:35.800
Measure i'll give you there's a couple of. Emails so
957
00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:37.760
there's something Like blue And, rouge which is like how
958
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:39.639
close is it to the right? Answer? Right those are
959
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:42.480
supervised tests where you're, like you give it a thing
960
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:44.519
and you're, like here's the OUTPUT i wanted to. Have
961
00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:45.519
we've talked about this.
962
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:48.960
Before, Yeah blue And rouges is like those like supervised
963
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:50.280
and supervised.
964
00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:52.679
Tests. Right but then there's one supervised tests and you're, like,
965
00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:54.400
well how do those? Work, Well i'll give you an.
966
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:57.760
Example there's a there's a judge BASED evl called, groundedness
967
00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:01.079
and what groundedness. Measures it measures how rounded a response
968
00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:04.199
from AN lm is in the facts and context that
969
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:07.000
you gave. It, Yeah and so for, example the three
970
00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:09.639
pairing that you give it for the unit test is sas,
971
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.960
asked how much does your you, know outdoor tent? Cost
972
00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:16.280
the context is we give it all of like the tent,
973
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:19.400
information and the cost is in, there, right it's just
974
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:21.159
like the slop of it and the outputs like the
975
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:25.920
tent is ten. Dollars. Right so given given that a judge.
976
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:27.800
Base before the, tariffs now there are a lot, more.
977
00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:29.760
That's, Right and now they're gonna be a lot. More
978
00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:34.599
but that particular three two, pole it's not, twopole but
979
00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:39.599
the three pole three. Yeah of the, question the context
980
00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:42.719
and the. Answer, yeah it's given to a judge to
981
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:45.079
judge on a scale of one to. Five how grounded is?
982
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:48.920
It and that judge is also AN Lllm, yeah okay
983
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:52.239
another one, yeah and it. Works and that's why that's
984
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:55.119
the whole idea of, Agency, yeah is that you have
985
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:59.519
agents that are specialized in their different, things just like
986
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:01.679
you have you on your. Staff there special that's. Right
987
00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:05.760
the people of my staff Question, mark it's just, me all, Right.
988
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:09.199
But Joe developer who's listening is, thinking, oh this is.
989
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:11.760
Great you, know after listening to these shows for the,
990
00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:14.480
last you, know the week that we've been doing, These
991
00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:17.400
i'm thinking now that you, Know i'm going to get
992
00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:19.480
rid Of bob and engineering And i'm going to replace no,
993
00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:24.079
agent And i'm going to set up this little staff
994
00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:27.559
of programmers under. Me agent programmers are going to help
995
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:28.000
me do my.
996
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:30.559
JOB i don't think that's ever going to. Happen WHAT
997
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.880
i think is going to happen AS i already. HAPPENED
998
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:35.360
i think we're going to solve. WELL i mean those
999
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:37.119
that think are they're going to solve it that way
1000
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:40.239
are going to come in Like i've seen vibe coders
1001
00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:42.519
like put out stuff and be, like oh why is
1002
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:44.599
MY aws bill so high.
1003
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:49.400
About vibe Coders and There's we've been arguing about whether
1004
00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:52.039
that's pejorative or, not because the ryan it's.
1005
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:55.000
Not, okay is it a pejorative?
1006
00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:57.559
Thing some people see, it some people see it, Goodness,
1007
00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:01.360
Yeah But i'm talking about a professional co that maybe
1008
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:05.400
works by themselves and hires out other specialists to do
1009
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:07.639
that kind of. Stuff, interesting and NOW i can maybe
1010
00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:09.639
spin off some agents to help me with that kind
1011
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:11.599
of stuff AND i not depend on them as.
1012
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:14.800
MUCH i think that the agents are going to be
1013
00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:18.400
able to do with a low powered brain work that
1014
00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:27.000
we as humans do and and but the actual creative
1015
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:32.480
move forward and always human right and not and not
1016
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:34.639
be stuck in the drudgery of. That so you actually
1017
00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:37.840
have more creative energy to do more experimentation. Exactly because
1018
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:38.480
then that's.
1019
00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:41.559
Why imagination is going to be the number one uh
1020
00:52:42.320 --> 00:52:45.000
feature of the Rock star. Developers, oh there you, go
1021
00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:46.880
there you. Go that's WHY i Think i've never been
1022
00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:49.559
a rock star. Though, dude you are the more like
1023
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:54.159
a flute, player saying like You're Eddie eddie Van halen
1024
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:57.880
jazz PLAYER ai At Microsoft Cool.
1025
00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:02.119
Beings well look, again AND i just want to emphasize
1026
00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:05.239
this is all accessible to. Everybody you can start playing
1027
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:08.159
with it. Today make it do a raw function call
1028
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:10.559
and see the output so you can see that What
1029
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:12.960
i'm saying is. True don't have it do the function,
1030
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:15.800
call just call it and tell it to do. Return
1031
00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:18.480
do a tool call and you'll see it literally Returns.
1032
00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:23.599
Jason that, says run this function with these, parameters.
1033
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:25.760
And be as careful with your prompts with your agents
1034
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:28.079
as you are with your ten year old when they
1035
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:30.679
tell them to go to the store and get used xy.
1036
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:31.840
Eggs or your programmer.
1037
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:36.679
Husband, yes that's, right that's you, know the one about the.
1038
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:39.559
Programmer your husband and the wife, said go to the
1039
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.039
store and get a gallon of. Milk if they have,
1040
00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:44.519
eggs get a. Dozen he came back with a dozen.
1041
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:46.079
Gas they had.
1042
00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:50.280
Eggs they had. Eggs but that's just how we have
1043
00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:52.039
the whole world turned into paper. Clips but if you
1044
00:53:52.119 --> 00:53:54.519
need to be, precise but if you think about, it
1045
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:57.119
that's exactly how you should think about these. Things that's.
1046
00:53:57.199 --> 00:53:59.360
Right you have to be very because you want to.
1047
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:03.079
Listen you want to maximize the probability of it returning
1048
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:05.320
the right tokens based upon the ones you gave.
1049
00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:08.079
It so we're all in for a new world of
1050
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:14.119
discovery and refinement of search and refinement of. Prompts, yeah
1051
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:15.280
and the whole new.
1052
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:17.679
World and if you go about retrieval augmented, generation it's
1053
00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:21.440
literally the process of you get a, question you programmatically
1054
00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:24.039
search for an, answer you put it into the, prompt
1055
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:27.039
and then you get the. Answer that's. It, yeah that's
1056
00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:28.639
all it. Is that's How, yeah we just gave it
1057
00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:30.800
a fancy. Name, Yeah WELL i don't like the TERM.
1058
00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:35.519
Rag it sounds it sounds kind Of but, YEAH i
1059
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:38.400
do a demo WHERE i do augmented, generation WHERE i
1060
00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:41.800
literally go and copy From, wikipedia BUT i think the
1061
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:43.679
right answer is put it in AND i show it
1062
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:45.480
AND i was, like how does it know the right? Answer
1063
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:47.039
and it was, like, well because you put it. In,
1064
00:54:47.239 --> 00:54:50.880
okay now you understand what augmented generation. Is the only
1065
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:54.760
process of retrieval was artisanal in my case BECAUSE i
1066
00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:59.880
went and did. It it was. Artisanal, yeah it's like
1067
00:54:59.880 --> 00:55:03.800
a fine, cheese, Right but we's That and then if
1068
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:06.280
you think about we're too. Generation by putting the right
1069
00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:10.199
context in and then coupled with tool, calling now you
1070
00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:14.000
have a powerful. Combo and that's WHERE i, think if
1071
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:15.559
you think about it like, this you're really going to
1072
00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:19.079
change the way things. Happen sure, WELL i also love
1073
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:24.880
how much you dilute the pretense of all this. Technology,
1074
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:27.719
OH i know it's the. PRETENSE i said that in
1075
00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:30.079
a very pretentious. WAY i. Know it's kind of.
1076
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:35.400
Amazing, actually, yeah.
1077
00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:38.119
It was like a two fur three For, yeah there you.
1078
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:46.360
Go but like That, latin but it's a plural of. Slezolo.
1079
00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:49.119
Right but if you think about, it this has been
1080
00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:52.360
What i've been doing for the last twenty. Years, Sure,
1081
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:54.960
yes that's. True i've been trying to make this stuff
1082
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:58.239
lose all of its pretentiousness and when you, do it
1083
00:55:58.280 --> 00:56:02.360
empowers you to do really. Things absolutely. Sure does the
1084
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:04.280
tools only get? Better that's, Right Brave New.
1085
00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:06.800
World and that's the last word from. BUILD i, Suppose
1086
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:10.079
WE'RE i, Love we're. Done it's TIME uh to hit the.
1087
00:56:10.159 --> 00:56:12.280
Road thank you for. Listening thank, You.
1088
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:13.760
Seth it's always a, pleasure always a.
1089
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:17.159
Pleasure and we'll talk to you next time on dot net.
1090
00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:41.360
Rocks dot Net rocks is brought to you By Franklin's
1091
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:45.440
net and produced By Pop, studios a full service, audio
1092
00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:49.320
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1093
00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:54.239
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1094
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:57.159
Com visit our website at D O T N E
1095
00:56:57.239 --> 00:56:59.760
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1096
00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:04.159
S s, feeds, downloads mobile, apps, comments and access to
1097
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:07.599
the full archives going back to show number, one recorded
1098
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.400
In september two thousand and. Two and make sure you
1099
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:13.559
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1100
00:57:13.599 --> 00:57:17.079
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1101
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