Commercial Open Source Update with Jimmy Bogard

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dot com. Hey and welcome back. It's dot net rocks.
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I'm Carl Franklin, an a vertue cavil. Jimmy Bogart is here.
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You might hear him chime in during the intro and
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uh oh yea hey everyone, Yeah, hi Jimmy, And uh well,
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this is episode twenty twelve, so only what twenty four
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more episodes before we stop this nonsense? Fourteen oh yeah,
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fourteen one.
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Math is hard.
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I can't do math before. That's early. Okay, this being
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twenty twelve, let's talk about the the news. What happened
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that year? Sure, Barack Obama won a reelection. Yeah, defeated
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Mitt Romney, Oh, formerly a game show host.
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It's not true.
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No, I just I just that name Mitt Romney from
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The Price is Right.
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Wasn't it? The governor of Massachusetts? He was Yeah.
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Yeah, and an interesting thing I learned about him is
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that he had a healthcare plan that was very similar
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to Obamacare.
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Yeah. Yeah, he was on in on universal healthcare, at
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least for the state of Massachusett. And then he opposed
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to Obamacare. Well, you know, because reasons.
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Yeah. Yeah. So civil war in Syria got hotter. Yeap,
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that began as protests during the Arab Spring became a
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full on civil war. We kind of hinted at that
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last last episode. Yeah, Aleppo became a major battleground, conflict
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evolved into one of the defining geopolitical crises the decade.
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Yeah, as it lasted over a decade.
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Yeah. Hurricane Sandy devastated the US East coast and you
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were caught in that. Well that prompted us to buy
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a generator. H Did I tell you the generator story?
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Which one, Well, we haven't really done a show since
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the storm over here, right, Oh. Yeah, So the generator
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kicked on. I have a propane generator.
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By this case, you mean you don't mean Sandy fourteen, No, No,
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I'm talking about this week.
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Last week, yeah, July fourth weekend.
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Yeah, So the.
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Generator kicks on because the power goes out right, and
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then the next day the generator just stops. So I
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see that there's oil. Been running for a day, Yeah,
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I was running for a day. There was oil pooled
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around it. So we leased the generator so we don't
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have to you know, called generator people to come and
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fix it on our dime.
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We don't own it.
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Yeah, we don't own it. So they came within a
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couple hours and fixed it. Kelly and I went to
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a hotel room for the night because you know, I
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have a seapap and I need electricity to sleep. Yeah,
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so that happened then, and then the next day, you know,
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inner nets out and we're limping along with like a
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little you know, my Fi, my Fi, but I can't
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connect it to my computer because my computer at my
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desktop that I use for all this stuff doesn't have
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a Wi Fi connector. Right, I buy a Wi Fi
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USB thing. It doesn't work. I'm troubleshooting it with with GPT.
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Nothing works. Like I'm screwed. It finally came back on
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all right. Fun after Sandy Sandy Hook Elementary School. Jeez,
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that was a tragedy.
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Yeah.
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December fourteenth, the London Summer Olympics, London became the first
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city to host the modern Summer Olympics three times.
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Didn't they didn't The Queen of England junkhot jump out
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of a helicopter in that one.
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You know that might have been a dream.
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Yeah, there was a whole James Bond bit. And then
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when they presented it to the queen and said, hey,
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do you mind if we do this, she goes only
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if I get to do it. Really obviously she didn't
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jump out of the helicopter, but she did act in it.
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Of course she did as herself, but everyone was kind
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of blown away that she wanted to play along.
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That's funny.
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Yeah, she was quite a sport I thought. I tend
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to agree.
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The highlights there Usain Bolt defending his sprint titles and
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Michael Phelps becoming the most decorated Olympian in history. Egypt
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elects Mohammed Morcy following the Arab Spring, Egypt's first democratically
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elected president. You know a bit about Egypt got a comment, Yes.
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It doesn't, it doesn't last. In the end, Egypt has
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been controlled by the by the army all along with
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MBARK and LCC and so. Yeah, and they never put
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in traffic lights did they Well, they didn't really need them.
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They have people with little taking notes, and if you
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behave badly in the intersection, you'll get a note.
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Costa Concordia cruise ship disaster.
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Oh yeah, buzzing, his girlfriend gets too close, rips the
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bottom of the hull out. Nicely done, Then bales on
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the ship too.
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Okay. Shijinping becomes China's top leader. That's gone well yeah, yeah, okay,
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o comment. The Eurozone debt crisis reaches its beak. Nice, Greece,
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Spain and other European countries face severe financial instability.
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Turns out not all Euros are the same, right.
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And then, of course the killing of Trayvon Martin, which
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became a national flashpoint over race, self defense laws and policing,
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and that laid the groundwork for what would become the
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Black Lives Matter movement A long time ago. Yeah, a
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long time ago. So there's more. But in the interest
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of time, what's the top space and tech stories?
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Richard in January, the Grail mission to the Moon. This
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was two satellites that had actually been launched in September
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the previous year. They took their time getting there, but
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they're doing there's mass concentration on the Moon that makes
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the gravity very uneven plus or minus two percent, enough
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that it's almost impossible to stay in a low orbit
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around the Moon, and so we need a detail map
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of that, and that's what the Grail mission was for.
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These two satellites fly in formation with a laser between them,
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and they measure the changes in the distance caused by
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gravitational variations, so we end up with a very detailed
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gravity map. They only operate for this year and then
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are deliberately impacted into the Moon to not leave space
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debris around. In May, the first cargo drag into the
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International Space Station, so this is the first commercial spacecraft
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ever the space station. It takes four days to get there,
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it stays for six days, they unload cargo, load up
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stuff they want to send back, and it actually splashes
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down in the end of May. At that point, SpaceX
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advertises that they can launch a Fulcon nine for fifty
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seven million dollars and carrying up to about fifteen or
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eighteen metric tons. The equivalent flight on an area in
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spaceflight would be one hundred and thirty seven million, so
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almost a third the price. You want to understand why
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SpaceX has dominated spaceflight. This is why it's just wildly cheer.
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And then later in the year, in October, they'll do
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another cargo supply mission. Voyager one crosses over into international
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International space. Let me sadd again, And in August, Voyager
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one crosses into interstellar space, so fully outside the influence
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of the Sun. It's eleven billion miles from Earth, so
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you're not getting to back.
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A lot of wacky news stories lately about sending back
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things that can't be explained or whatever, but I think
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they're just clickbait stories.
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Yeah, to some degree. It's also it's very old and
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things are breaking down. But also in August, the Curiosity
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rover lands on Mars. This is the famous seven minutes
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of Terror. The point being it's going to take seven
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minutes from the point of interfacing with the atmosphere of
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Mars to landing, but you're fourteen minutes away from the Earth,
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so by the time they get the first signal that
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it's going to start landing, it's already finished, so you
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have no control over that. And there was a bunch
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of steps in this. This was the largest thing we'd
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ever landed on Mars, and we're trying to land it
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precisely in the Jezero crater. It's over a metric ton
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of working payload. It's a big rover, a size of
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a mini and so it comes in on a heat
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shield which heats up quickly, slowing down for about thirteen
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thousand miles an hour to about one thousand miles an
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hour because the atmosphere is very thin, not enough atmosphere
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to really stop you, but more than enough that you
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have to deal with it. Then they deploy a supersonic parachute,
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a massive one, which you'll slow it from about one
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thousand to two hundred miles an hour. Then dump the
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heat shield. Radar kicks in from the rover to look
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at the ground, try and figure out where they are.
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There's some little stabilization tricks they can do, but still
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the parachute will They're moving to two hudred miles an hours,
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too fast to land, so they have to ditch the
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arrowshell and the parachute, and now they're on rockets, and
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the rockets now maneuvering towards their landing site. But they
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can't land with the rockets or they'll damage the vehicle.
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So now it's on a thing called the skyhook or
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the skycrane. These cables wind it down about sixty feet
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from the sky hook. The jet pack actually put the
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rover down, cut the lines, and then the jet pack
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flies away, runs out of fuel and crashes seven minutes.
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It was crazy and it worked flawlessly, of course. In
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twenty twelve and again in twenty twenty.
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Yeah.
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Also in August, Neil Armstrong, first person to step on
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the Moon, passes away. Yeah. And in December, the Chang
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E two lunar orbiter has left the Moon and flown
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off to an asteroid, to Tatis asteroid, and it's the
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first for China to reach an asteroid. They're only the
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fourth country to have done that. The actually the third,
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the fourth, the Americans, the European Space Agency JACKSA and.
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Then sometimes Canadians can't do math either.
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Jimmy's funny, just keeping the counts they have met. On
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the compute side of things, twenty twelve is the year
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that the Raspberry Pie is first released in the UK. Yeah, yeah,
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the whole idea of a low cost computer. Microsoft resigns
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their logo the color Square one for the first time
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in twenty five years. Microsoft also opens MS open Tech
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under Jean Pauline. This was a funny group. We didn't
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really understand what was about. Publicly, they talked about them
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making sure that dot net worked well with important open
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source libraries like elastic and memcashd and things like that
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auto mapper, But under the hood, what was actually going
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on was they wanted to build more open source stuff,
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but the Microsoft legal was so freaked out about it
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they actually set up a separate company to create a
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legal abstraction from it. One of the teams that was
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in there was the Nity framework team, the Anity framework team.
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It decided that they wanted to make an open source
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version of Nity framework. Now they'd already written in any framework.
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He had several versions out, all of which had a
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pile of patents on it, and so open sourcing it
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seemed impossible. There was an idea we could only make
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new open source, we couldn't convert all over the source.
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But this was the first time they were really going
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to try it. And literally what they did well, all
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these guys changed jobs. They moved over to MS open
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Tech and they went through all of the code in
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Anity framework, reviewing it for patents. Now this is patents
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they'd gotten by writing the code in the first place,
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and so they're literally looking the patent deciding if it
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is valuable or not. If it's not, then fine, let
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it go. If it is. If it's if it's really valuable,
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they rewrote the code to no longer conflict with the patent.
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Is this when the n hibernate mafia showed up at
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the door? This is years after the eight years after okay,
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like two years okay.
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Anyway, in the end, they get it done and open
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source and it's kind of a big deal for Microsoft.
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Takes a months, but it lets the teams know it's
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possible to open sources usting code like everyone thought it
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was impossible. And then the process is so arduous. They
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demand a simpler process, and our friend Soma Segar Rest
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in Peace, actually streams lines the process and Microsoft moves
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a little bit closer to being open source company.
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Yeah, it may fun times.
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Facebook IPO one of the most messed up IPOs of
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all time because even though it's a public company, the
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CEO holds the majority of the voting stock public company.
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September nineteenth, twenty twelve, in Vancouver, dot net Rocks road
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Trip begins, Oh yeah, thirty seven stops in thirteen weeks,
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coming out of Vancouver, down in Seattle, then all across
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the I ninety to Boston, and then down the Eastern
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Seaboard as far south as Tampa, and then west across
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to San Diego, and then it ends in Vegas December ninth.
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I'm tired just thinking about it.
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Where you insisted that we go to Joel Robischad for dinner, and.
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It was a great meal.
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It was a great meal for you and me. My wife, however,
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was like, bring these snails out of here and get
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me a cheese in.
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At Jimmy and I about a burger. We had to
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make a couple of stops.
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There's so many snails on my plate. I can't even
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see the food.
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I mean, we didn't do the road trip nons step.
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There was a couple of breaks in. One of those
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breaks was for the second Build conference right in October.
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That's when Windows eighties officially launched and Visual Studio twenty twelve,
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the one everybody hated because the menus are all in
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Uppercase Framework four point five I E ten and Windows
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Phone eight letting all the Windows Phone developers know you
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just got screwed because all the code you wrote in
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seven will not run on eight, so you have to
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start not fun times no, and of course win eight
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is a gigantic flop and that will lead to other
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consequences which we'll talk about on the next show.
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Yeah, okay, so that's what you got, That's what I got?
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All right, Well let's roll the music for better no framework.
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Awesome? All right, man, what do you got?
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I got a message from the author of mq net.
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What is that?
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Now?
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This is a dot net wrapper for MQ which is
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a JQ like query tool from markdown query headings, code blocks, paragraphs,
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and more using a simple, composable query language. Now I
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had never heard of m Maybe guys such as Jimmy have,
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but no.
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For the MQ series.
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Yeah, that's what I would have thought of it. Yeah,
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that it was a Q system not a query system.
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Well, probably the reason we haven't heard it is it's
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a thin managed wrap around the native mq dash ffi library,
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which is compiled from the MQ rust crate. So at runtime,
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dot nets p and vokeloads the platform native binary and
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Marshall's calls across the native boundary. So there you go.
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If if you know what MQ is and you like it,
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but you want to bring that over to the dot
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net side. There you go MQ now.
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Yeah, still happening.
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Yeah cool. So who's talking to us today?
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Richard Crowd to Commenov Show nineteen forty one. What we
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talked to some guy named Jimmy Boger about automap or
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fourteen and doing this stuff for seventeen years and now
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things needed to change yep. And we also talked about,
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you know, going from coplex to gethub and that that
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whole experience. Jonathan has his comment where he says, I
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mean technically code is data. It's just that de serializing
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running code outside of one's application is rather risky. Yeah,
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an execution attack, but yeah, i'd say, very easy to
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add things happening. You know, try doing that with SQL.
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That's also bad. But if the types of queries have
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to be supported or simple enough, it probably possible to
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fake serializing aqueriable by passing a limited number of config
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keywords and using them to construct a queriable. Otherwise, it
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seems like pretending to serial as to deserilize equeriable. It
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seems like it would require creating a full ballone query language.
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Figuring out how to integrate the necessary parsing execution into
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one's app probably not worth the effort unless it's core
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functionality or you just think it's cool.
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I've thought of doing that, and I tried several approaches,
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and I tried several libraries, but they all miss the
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point that an equeriable requires code, right, and you can't
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serialize that, you know.
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So, Jonathan, thank you so much for your comment in
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a copy of music code By on its way to UNI.
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If you'd like a copy music Gobe, I write a
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comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com or
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on the facebooks you publish every show there, and if
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you comment there and I read it in the show,
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and we'll send you copy music go By.
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And right before I lost power last week, I was
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working on music to code By track twenty three nice.
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So I did get a couple of things laid down.
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I got more to do, but plan on getting back.
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To that appen. And then the universe said, no, yeah,
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that's right.
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The gods of vengeance and irony gave me some SmackDown.
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All right, So let's introduce Jimmy. Jimmy Bogart is the
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creator and maintainer of the popular OSS libraries Automapper and Mediator.
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Jimmy is an independent software consultant based in Austin, Texas.
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He has received the Microsoft Most Valuable Profession MVP Award
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every year since two thousand and nine. And I like
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the way you said that in your bio, because you know,
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people say, I've been a developer for twelve years. Well
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you know what, next year, it's going to be thirteen
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and I'm not changing it. Yeah, so since two thousand
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and nine, you've been an MVP. Welcome Jimmy.
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Yea, I'm glad to be back, Glad to be back, glad.
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To have you. Yeah, it felt like it's been a
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year since the whole conversation about Autumn Apper and and
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changed into a more commercial model. The thing that hit
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me the hardest when you were first talking about that,
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I think was even before we were recording, was this
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whole I realized I was subsidizing this project off my
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other work and work changes, and it's like this is
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just not sustainable.
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Right, Yeah, that's I think that was the conversation. Right
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at the end, there was just looking back and like
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realizing I had lost my sponsor because I used to
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work in a consulting company that sponsored the work and
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then just not realizing that was and.
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How that's actually what was going on.
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Yeah, that's yeah. I didn't realize that at the time,
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but that's what actually the arrangement that was happening there,
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that that was no longer anymore.
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Yeah.
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So just once you once you realize that, you're like, wow, okay,
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what what what to do now? So I think that's
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what where you ended as I was trying to figure
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out what to do, what to do next with that
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with that knowledge, Yeah, and you.
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Were coming into it with some trepidation too, because I
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mean everybody talked, we've we've seen this with de one
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day and we just had rab mentioning a few weeks ago.
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Of course, this is a very common pattern, it seems,
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emerging as open sources evolving where it's like, how do
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we make these projects more sustainable? So you were at
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the beginning of that last year. Where are you now?
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Yeah, So that was like right in the middle of
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where I was trying to figure out where I wanted
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to go, And during that process I wound up talking
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to I don't know, fifteen twenty different people that're in
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the exact same sort of situation and talking to see
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what they went through, and like, basically to a tea,
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the next step for that level of open source is
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some sort of commercialization, right, And so that was the
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decision I was going through. Okay, for sustainability, it needs
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corporate sponsorship and that was no longer there from where
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I was working before, so I needed some other form
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of corporate sponsorship. And basically then that's some kind of well,
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I guess it depends, but I went the software licensing route.
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I'd read a ton of I'm sure we've had him
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on a baillion times, but Aaron Standard with Petibridge and
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acaba net talked a ton about just commercial models of
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open source, and so I basically followed his his guidelines like,
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woll you can go do this, you could do this,
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you could do this, and so I wound up going there.
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Out of just charging a fee for for companies over
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certain size to use the software.
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Did you use the source maintenance fee model?
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I looked at it, but because it was still failing,
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it was still fairly new at the time, I didn't.
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I basically thought I'd get one shot at this doing
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this something I didn't want to stake it on something
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that I didn't see was established yet. And although I
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probably could have lent a lot of credence to that
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by adopting myself, I.
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But even Rob was discouraging people at that point. He's like,
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let me see where this goes for me first before. Yeah,
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and it's worked out for him now. But it's just
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it was timing. If you were starting now, it may
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probably make more sense.
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And I should just mention that I talked to the
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guys in the apt next Realm that managed Polly, and
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they're all for it. So we're going to have a
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blog post up pretty soon that we will have we'll
401
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be using the SMF.
402
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Oh that's fantastic cool. Yeah, yeah, I mean I love
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to see those kinds of things take hold, because ultimately
404
00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.839
I I had realized that, you know, the libraries I
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00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:40.480
use are used by big enterprise software organizations and big
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enterprise companies who really don't have any issue paying for
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00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:50.119
licenses of things, right, So it's like it's just made
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like they they're more than willing to pay. So yeah,
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they want to be compliant, yes, exactly, and they want
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especially the looking at my library it's used in production systems,
411
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and they want to make sure that those production systems
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they've come to rely upon, like that they've invested in,
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like they can still get their return on those investments.
414
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So I don't know.
415
00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:13.160
It was a really tough decision going down that path,
416
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like you know, sleepless nights and anxiety and all that
417
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sort of stuff, But ultimately it was the right call.
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I wanted to just make sure it was sustainable going forward.
419
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I didn't want to give it up, didn't want to
420
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lose it.
421
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So so are you telling me that when you make these announcements,
422
00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:31.000
everybody says, that's a brilliant idea, John, We're all in.
423
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It's all just happiness and joy, right, that's how this
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went down?
425
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Oh goodness, No, No, And I've known just by seeing
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other people. You know, other people had done this before me,
427
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and I saved very very close attention to how that
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had gone for them, how their messaging was, how they
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how their model worked out for them. So I had
430
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:58.279
both good and bad examples to work from. So I
431
00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.039
tried from at least a messaging perspect to kind of
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build the case of why I was going this route.
433
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But ultimately it's still a big ask for developer who's
434
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using something, Yes, and then now it's no longer free,
435
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and now they have to have that awkward conversation with
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their manager, with.
437
00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:19.079
Their purement yeah questions.
438
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So I really like that's a tough that's a tough
439
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:23.759
conversation to have that I've had in the past. Right,
440
00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.160
I've been. I've been the position like I really want this,
441
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you know, teller C license.
442
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Well even worse, I'm already using this and getting rid
443
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of it would be difficult, and now I have to
444
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pay for it, or rather you have to pay for it.
445
00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:41.559
So yeah, and again you're not talking about a huge
446
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amount of money. It's not the money, it's the process.
447
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Yes, which now I'm intimately familiar with these, so the
448
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sort of seller side. But yeah, that started. I announced
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I think in April last year, April seconds, not April first,
450
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because that would have been really.
451
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Dumb, funny but dumb.
452
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And then when I'm going live, I think July of
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last year's has actually been twelve months now, nice this
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being this being a thing.
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So it's worked. You have customers, yes, you have a
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revenue stream.
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So it's it's definitely self sustaining.
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Okay, it's not quit your job, hire a bunch of people,
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likely on the beach kind of money.
460
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Well, I never wanted to hire people in the first
461
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I didn't get into this like a big company. I
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want to make sure this is sustainable going forward. I
463
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lost my sponsor. I need that back now. It's just,
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you know, how do I how do I make sure
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that I can continue that business going forward and focus
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on like improving the stuff that I had just not
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done in like five years prior to making this commercial.
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I just I basically stopped. It's like, I don't none
469
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of my customers are paying me to maintain this, so
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I'm just going to do minimal stuff. Now people are
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paying me to maintain it. So now the fun part
472
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of you know, actually improving the libraries after letting them
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kind of sit for a bit.
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Wow. Okay, And what do you thinkure was the key here?
475
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Like did you come up with a way to make
476
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it really easy to pay or I mean just I
477
00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:20.799
think about folks like Troy Hunt dealing with all of
478
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these organizations that want to go through a giant procurement
479
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process for like twenty dollars and he's like, no, not
480
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doing it. We take credit cards and nothing else or
481
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you know, forget it.
482
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Yeah, I had this whole I had the whole process
483
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as well. So I one of the nice things about
484
00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:37.319
interviewing all these other people that came before is you
485
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:39.799
get to learn from their mistakes and just learning their
486
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:44.000
model whatever. So I started up by just doing that,
487
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:47.039
saying here's a link to pay for it, and that's that.
488
00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:50.000
But I think within like a week, I had someone
489
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:51.839
coming to me to say, hey, we want a quote
490
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.240
in an invoice. Yeah, and I'm like, what's what's what
491
00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:58.759
are those things I've never had to do, Like as
492
00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:03.359
a software consultant for fifteen twenty years before that, we
493
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:05.799
only worked in statements of work that had a very
494
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:09.680
different Oh yes I need to you need to get
495
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:13.319
this approved internally. Yeah. So yeah, just a whole learning
496
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:16.079
process of just what the enterprise process looks like and
497
00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:19.000
also what I wanted support as well. I talked to
498
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.200
people that said we don't we only just have the
499
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:24.160
credit card link out there or whatever, and we don't
500
00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:28.599
do any kind of other processes. But after twelve months,
501
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:32.799
it wouldn't look back and said okay, based on those assumptions,
502
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:35.599
it looked like although like two thirds of my orders
503
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:41.279
were direct online purchases was manual invoice. So if I
504
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:46.160
didn't do like half, if I didn't do that, that
505
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:48.799
would be just half the revenue gone. So I'm like, well,
506
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:51.400
I think that was a good choice. But it does
507
00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:53.480
definitely take a ton of time to go through all
508
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:57.759
those enterprise procurement processes to decide that worth it or not.
509
00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:01.599
But yeah, I mean you said it's fifty percent of
510
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:04.599
the income, but it's a whole bunch more cost.
511
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:08.759
Yes, I haven't tracked all that yet, but definitely it
512
00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:11.799
reminded my first like just fray into open source, I
513
00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:14.200
would take every pole request, yeah, just because like I
514
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:16.960
was super happy, excited to be, you know, to have
515
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:18.920
this activity. So this is the same thing early on too,
516
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:22.000
is just I would take any any request that came in. Sure, sure,
517
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:24.039
you know. But then eventually I realized, oh, this is
518
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:27.680
taking a lot like license redlining. I did not get
519
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:31.160
into this too to have to look at legal redline documents,
520
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:33.920
but early on it just took them all like, if
521
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:36.200
you want it redline, I'll let it look And then later,
522
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:38.440
oh god, that is actually quite expensive to pay your
523
00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:42.319
lawyer to look at the most mundane things. So it's
524
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:44.720
just a been a big learning experience over the past
525
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.440
year of how to software business.
526
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.640
I guess right, yeah, you say that's that is the
527
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:54.200
learning processes. What do people actually want here? And what
528
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.200
and what's a reasonable request? I think that's the hardest
529
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:59.920
one because you can often get the bigger the company,
530
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:02.240
it seems some more unreasonably requests are.
531
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:06.039
Yeah, did you do this both for automapper and mediator.
532
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.440
Yeah. That was one advice I got in very early
533
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.279
was if you're going to do it, do whatever you
534
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:14.960
would want to commercialize at once. Don't do one and
535
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.440
then later on do something else. Just do it all together.
536
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.000
So initially I thought, you know, just do automapper because
537
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.279
it has I think it had fifty percent more downloads
538
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.920
at the time, but the mediators still had quite a
539
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:31.400
lot as part of it. And the advice I got
540
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:33.079
from a lot of folks that run these kinds of
541
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:34.680
things like just do them both, Like, if you're going
542
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.839
to do it, and do it now. Yeah, if no
543
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:38.400
one wants it, no one wants to pay for it,
544
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.400
that's fine. But what I found is that because you know,
545
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:45.359
the nice thing is before this I had no clue
546
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.359
who was using my library. Right, it was just a
547
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.440
raw number, but now I can actually see who's using
548
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:54.599
And one of the interesting things is that from the
549
00:27:54.680 --> 00:28:01.039
people that bought Automapper, there's another like sixty percent and
550
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:04.920
another thirty percent would also then like also buy Mediator
551
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:07.799
as well. So about a third of the people using
552
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:10.599
automapp are also we're using Mediator and just using them
553
00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:13.279
all together. Well that makes sense because that's what I
554
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:16.079
would do in my projects. We use them both together.
555
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.359
You know, they weren't. It's a complimentary tools or the
556
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.720
just things I would always do in just about all
557
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:24.240
my projects. So yeah, I wind up doing both just
558
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:28.599
because everyone told me to. Right, Yeah, we're gonna do
559
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:30.240
it now and dealt with it.
560
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:32.559
And I see that you offer a bundle there. Do
561
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:33.759
you think that made a difference.
562
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:37.839
Yeah, that's you is. Yeah, basically twenty percent off if you.
563
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.440
Do both and right, if you do them both, just reduces.
564
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.720
The number of conversations. And I didn't want to again like, oh,
565
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:45.680
here's one and then the twelve months later, here's another
566
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:47.359
one that you have to to purchase.
567
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.599
This say, you just make people angry again, rip the
568
00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:52.240
band aid off and yeah, make them angry once.
569
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:55.759
Yeah, exactly, did you have a significant number of people
570
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:58.599
complain about the what is it ten dollars a month
571
00:28:58.680 --> 00:28:59.079
or something?
572
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.960
Well, the tricky part is and then I know you'll
573
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:04.759
know that too, right. It's like there's the vocal folks
574
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:09.759
online which basically read it in. LinkedIn are like the
575
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:12.640
main places I see those. I mean, I see comments
576
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.640
on my blog post, but that's still going to be
577
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:18.640
much lower traffic than those other ones. I wouldn't know
578
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:20.559
if it was going to be successful until I actually
579
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:21.720
put it out there and said, well, who are the
580
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:25.359
companies that don't aren't you know, habitually online complaining all
581
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:29.400
the time, but are actually just building stuff and don't
582
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:31.960
just comment on LinkedIn all the time. That would be
583
00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:34.119
the people I would say that I would want to
584
00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:37.680
focus on. I came in assuming like if ninety nine
585
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:41.440
percent of the users didn't want to purchase, that was
586
00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:43.960
okay with a one percent just you know, back of
587
00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:46.400
the nap and calculation based on raw downland numbers and
588
00:29:46.519 --> 00:29:49.680
one percent converted, and it could sustain itself right at
589
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:52.160
that point three percent? Like those the people that are
590
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.160
also invested in the product as well, not just like
591
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:59.000
downloaded because someone said to they actually see the value,
592
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:02.240
So I thought, well, focus on the people that see
593
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.839
the value enough to want to then pay for it whatever.
594
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:07.039
Ye, And I'm sure I saw I'm sure you've got
595
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:11.160
message saying uh loll generated with l M.
596
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:13.759
Yeah. I mean that didn't That was not a thing
597
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:15.480
when I was making this decision, to be honest, like
598
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.720
we weren't quite there yet. It was a claude version
599
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:19.799
one at the time.
600
00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:22.720
So but it was different.
601
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:26.079
People have told me, and again I I don't really
602
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:27.920
care if they want to replace it with something else
603
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:29.000
or whatever, like that's there.
604
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:31.279
Yeah, if you want to maintain the code base, knock
605
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:32.440
yourself out, right, sure.
606
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:36.640
I mean for my consulting days though I knew there
607
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:39.400
was there was more value in the code you didn't
608
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:41.519
write than the code you did, right, right, then you
609
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:44.319
if you could focus on the most important code, because
610
00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:46.079
you just have to maintain that stuff forever. And I
611
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:48.200
saw this with autom mapp, right. I took every pool
612
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.440
request and I had to maintain that forever, and I
613
00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:51.480
didn't want to.
614
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.599
Yeah, just came to realize not a good idea, right Yeah. Well,
615
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:58.559
and your party use what works too, right, Yeah.
616
00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:01.119
And I'm a big believer in that idea that there's
617
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:06.039
more value in a community building that those libraries over time,
618
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.920
having that pool of different users in different opinions focused
619
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:13.480
on a single code base ratter than a thousand different
620
00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:16.319
code bases that are either forked or you know, just
621
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:21.240
copy paste Claude, whatever sort of thing. They'll never This
622
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.839
is something I saw on my consulting days was we
623
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:27.759
had a dozen projects at the minimum running at a time, right,
624
00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:31.359
and all those projects were providing feedback into the libraries
625
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:33.519
to make it better. That doesn't happen if it's just
626
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.000
one off by itself. So it's always the thing I
627
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:40.119
saw great with open sources, that you're building off other
628
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:43.519
people's experiences too, and that just doesn't happen in any
629
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:45.400
kind of like just isolated code.
630
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.400
Yeah, you're exactly right, and a lot of way it
631
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:50.799
gets a lot more energy that way. We should break. Yeah,
632
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:52.920
let's take a break. Good idea, Richard. We'll be right
633
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:59.240
back after these very important messages, and we're back. It's
634
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.519
dot Net Rocks, Drew Campbell, that's Carl Franklin Yo talking
635
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:05.799
to our friend Jimmy Bogart. As experience of the past
636
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.359
year with automapp or mediator and having a commercial license,
637
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:14.000
and obviously some folks have have come in, so now
638
00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:16.400
you know, things are a bit more sustainable for you.
639
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:19.400
I guess the other side of this is are these
640
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:21.880
guys front of the line too, are there pull requests
641
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:25.079
or are their issues prioritized if they're a paying customer.
642
00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:27.000
It was that was part of the incentive as well.
643
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:30.680
If you're paying customer, you get actual support. Now. Prior
644
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:34.039
to this, there was like, no, it's in the license
645
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.440
right in my tea. Have actually no warranties whatsoever, like
646
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.400
no guarantees. It doesn't implied social contract. But the social
647
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:44.720
contract at the end was I will not I will
648
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.720
not respond to issues because I just didn't have time.
649
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:51.599
Sure now there's now that's changed. Right now I none
650
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:55.079
only have contractual obligations for things like security fixes, but
651
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:59.559
also now it's one of the reasons I wanted to
652
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:01.119
get into it is to be able to help people
653
00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:05.039
that are actually using the software, So having a discord
654
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:08.559
chat that people can come and ask questions and being
655
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:12.000
able to get you know, issues answered and emails answered.
656
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:14.319
BERI to this, I just would not And to.
657
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.799
Be clear, the product is still available for free on GitHub.
658
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:21.519
If you're going to go down that pipeline, right, and
659
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:23.759
if you're a contributor to it's so much the better. Like,
660
00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:25.920
I just think there's a I think Rob said the
661
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.559
same thing. There's a distinct difference between the people who
662
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:31.960
participate in the open source process are contributors and utilize
663
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:34.839
the code and folks who just treat it as a
664
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:36.759
product and grab it off of new get and use it.
665
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.799
Yeah. Yeah, I mean I don't think that's changed. Yeah,
666
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:41.960
I mean there's certainly people that were upset that it
667
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.640
was a more restrictive license that wind up doing a
668
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:48.440
dual license with like a copy left combined with a
669
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:51.119
commercial license. Right, So if you're in a situation where
670
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.640
copy left is filed like a it's reciprocal public, which
671
00:33:54.680 --> 00:34:00.519
is a more patent restrictive version of the GPL, And
672
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:03.319
then just the idea is that, Okay, there are people
673
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:05.200
in that situation to do that. But I also included
674
00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:08.159
a free tier as well, just so that I don't
675
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:11.840
want to charge small companies or individuals that sort of thing. Yeah,
676
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:14.760
I wan, I'm making it. I talked to a couple
677
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.039
of companies that said that having a I think of
678
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:20.599
most most companies I see, do you like a million
679
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:23.840
dollar free tier? If your company makes more than a
680
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:25.679
million reverend, then you need to pay for a license.
681
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:27.639
But I talked to several that said that was a
682
00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:31.239
bit low these days. Is that if you look at
683
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:37.800
the kind of modern software, especially in the US, software salaries,
684
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:40.360
software developer salaries, a million doses doesn't get you that
685
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:42.320
much with software salaries the way.
686
00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:45.320
So I butt that, sure, that's still like three or
687
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.239
four people in a you know, half dozen people in
688
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:48.639
a team.
689
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:51.800
Yeah, So they're like, you know, you're not going to
690
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.960
convert those basically, it's like, so you want to give
691
00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:55.599
room to grow, And so I just kind of put
692
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:57.480
my finger to the win and said, how about five million?
693
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.239
And that's that's the little number that if you if
694
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:03.440
your company makes more than five million, then you're probably
695
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:06.039
buying licenses of other things as well. Yeah, so it
696
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:08.519
wouldn't be a difficult conversation to then pay for this.
697
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:10.400
And how much did you say your license was?
698
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:12.440
Uh? For that loads here?
699
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.760
So that wasn't a whole other like, uh, what's the
700
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:16.440
right price?
701
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:18.639
Saying? I was doing is like how to how to
702
00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:21.679
license this? So I wound up going for a team
703
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:25.480
based license of unlimited production applications of like if you
704
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:28.480
have a team of won Atten developers, it's five hundred
705
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:30.960
dollars a year for the entire team, and you can
706
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:32.800
have as many And a lot of that was just
707
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:35.239
I don't want personally to deal with a bunch of
708
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.159
administrative overhead. I didn't like dealing with it as as
709
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:41.639
a consultant. So instead of like per user, per developer,
710
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:45.480
it's just per team and as many applications as you want,
711
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:48.880
because anything else beyond that requires work, and I don't
712
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:51.000
want to deal with that, and then I don't want
713
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:53.559
up the customers to deal with it either. M Yeah,
714
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:55.280
So that's got to figure, like five hundred a year
715
00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:56.880
for a five million company.
716
00:35:56.920 --> 00:35:57.760
Is pretty fair?
717
00:35:58.000 --> 00:35:59.880
Should be? Should be pretty Yeah.
718
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:01.960
Yeah, that's an easy, easy decision.
719
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:04.800
Yeah, And it's one transaction a year, so from the
720
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:08.559
procurement process is pretty simple. It's renewable year over years.
721
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:10.920
So once it's once you get through that hurdle, the
722
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:12.519
finance people just paid each year.
723
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.960
Yeah, that was the idea is make it you don't
724
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:18.559
make it so low that it's not worth their time
725
00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:20.840
to go through the process. A great point I learned
726
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.280
that early on when I was starting on software development.
727
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:24.960
I was part of a product company that tried to
728
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:28.599
like severely undercut the competition, but all that projected to
729
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:31.559
the to their customers was that's not it has. If
730
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:33.199
you're ten percent of the price, then you're ten percent
731
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.760
of the value, right, So I can't make it super cheap.
732
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:38.760
I got to make it to where it's still project
733
00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:40.760
some value to the customer. It's like worth their time
734
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:42.039
to actually go through the process.
735
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:46.360
Yeah, yeah, you're right. And again because they because the
736
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:49.679
process costs something, you have to have a large enough
737
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:51.239
number there just be take it seriously.
738
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:54.360
Yeah, exactly. So there's plenty of folks that is because
739
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:57.119
as an individual software developer, you see five hundred dollars
740
00:36:57.159 --> 00:37:00.280
and you think, gosh, that's a that's a switch too,
741
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:02.639
you know, that's like that seems like a lot of
742
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:04.719
money for individual, but for company.
743
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:08.320
There's a couple of bottle of whiskeys i'd like to own, exactly.
744
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:12.280
Although the bourbon prices are finally stabilizing that like, that's
745
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:16.000
that's a lot of bottle. Yeah, but yeah, it was
746
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:19.239
one of those just I wouldn't know as well what
747
00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:21.039
the price should be until I just tried it and
748
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:23.840
put it out there, hope that I kind of get
749
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:26.199
it right without having to do a bunch of adjustments
750
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:26.639
later on.
751
00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:29.599
I just just poked through Reddit and I see people
752
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:33.119
arguing about the price on both sides of it without
753
00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:36.079
your involvement at all, which is delightful to me because
754
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:38.599
that means you're probably in the ballpark when they can,
755
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:39.400
you know.
756
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:42.519
Out a universal and complaints on both sides you're right about.
757
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:44.400
Yeah, you're dead. Everybody should be mad at you. Then
758
00:37:44.440 --> 00:37:45.159
you're doing it right.
759
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:48.920
I figured with the bumping up to like a five
760
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:52.679
million ceiling on revenue, that that's a difficult position to
761
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.719
argue against, like a yes, if you can't afford that,
762
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:57.960
which there are some I mean like nonprofits, for example,
763
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:01.440
may have a five million dollars annual budget, but that
764
00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:05.320
does not mean they'll have a clovenue. Yeah, okay, well
765
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.400
we can do like discounts and things like that for
766
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.199
you know, nonprofit that's sort of there are other ways
767
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:13.280
to handle that, but it just starts to become more complicated.
768
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:16.119
I can't design one model that works for everybody. It's
769
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:16.760
just impossible.
770
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:19.199
No, no, And it's easier to make something, you know,
771
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:21.440
go for the eighty percent, deal with the exceptions.
772
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:24.360
Yeah, exactly. But that's all that stuff I had to
773
00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:26.440
learn over the last felve months because I just never
774
00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:28.800
had to deal with any of that stuff as a consultant.
775
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:31.400
It's just that's been the kind of the fun part
776
00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:34.559
is new challenge of doing all this when I never
777
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:35.960
had to do any of this kind of stuff before.
778
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.519
It was always just pricing the material rates I was
779
00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:41.039
doing before.
780
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:43.719
Yeah, it's not simple. It's a product now, and so
781
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:46.119
you've got to deal with the transaction models that people
782
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:48.159
need to use. You've got to deal with all the
783
00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:51.679
rates and so forth. Man, I don't envy your friend,
784
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:53.800
but it's I see, we've had some fun with it.
785
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:55.480
At least it's worked out too.
786
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.599
Yeah. I even had my first CVE this year too.
787
00:38:58.840 --> 00:38:59.440
That was fun.
788
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:02.679
Oh right. Of course, we're in the time with all
789
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.800
the smart ms running around saying finding vulnerability. So, yes,
790
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.079
this is one of your customers sending you the CV.
791
00:39:10.519 --> 00:39:12.960
No, no, no, this was a just as because they're
792
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:15.440
always they're usually anonymous as that someone posted a get
793
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:20.199
up security advisory back in March, and before I went
794
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:22.159
through this, I would have just completely blown it off
795
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.159
because not my customer, not my problem, right right, But
796
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:29.960
now I'm actually obligated to investigate these things, like it's
797
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.119
in like I agree with a lot of these enterprise
798
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:35.320
customers that you know, I've slas for responding to ferris
799
00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:35.920
At incidents.
800
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:38.039
Yeah, so that was a.
801
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:39.679
Fun one, you know. I went to the whole like
802
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.719
five stages of grief, of denial, anger sort of stuff.
803
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.000
Dude, does a webpage on NIST with your name on it?
804
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.599
Yes?
805
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:50.360
Was it easy to fix?
806
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:54.679
Eventually? It was easy to fix. My first fix was
807
00:39:54.679 --> 00:39:56.440
wrong and so I had to like do another one
808
00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:59.320
that was like a full complete fix, and even the
809
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:01.800
first one, I was like this, this is bogus, this
810
00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:06.920
is ridiculous. The security of the vulnerability was an infinite
811
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:12.599
recursion vulnerability of like if you map something hierarchically, then
812
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:17.719
I had nothing protecting an infinite recursion. But the argument
813
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.159
against it was like, well that's autom mappers never directly
814
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.880
exposed to the Internet. It's always going through something. So
815
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.760
I posted Jason up and then Jason's mapped to your
816
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:30.320
object model, and then that's mapped whatever. So I was like, well,
817
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:36.440
Jason dot net has recursion in there, but that only
818
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:39.480
this is one thing that the ALMS had helped me with.
819
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:41.440
It's like, tell me all the different other attack factors
820
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.199
system come through. And you think of any website that
821
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.039
has any kind of higerical model building. You know, comments, right,
822
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:50.159
comment has a parent comment, comment has a pair of comment.
823
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.039
That's a good example of like someone can just build
824
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:56.000
something that builds infinite or at least a very high
825
00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:59.119
number of depth that never goes through the Jason serializer
826
00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:02.920
for the whole model for the post, but then forget
827
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.519
where it's loading on all up. Like then that could cross.
828
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:09.480
The server with a it's like a denial service kind.
829
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:14.599
Of denial exhausting memories. Oh, I have built those websites
830
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.119
with employee as a manager who as a manager as
831
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:20.679
a manager. If that's exposed like okay, okay, well this
832
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:23.719
can just completely take down the website. So that was
833
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.719
also my first winning experience of what does all this,
834
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:30.960
all these security advisory measures mean? What am I supposed
835
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:33.719
to do with this? A lot of people thought that
836
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:37.880
I was I got the comment that people thought that
837
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:40.639
I invented the security advisory to force upgrades. Because I
838
00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:43.000
had to go back and say which versions were affected.
839
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:46.039
It was basically since I made the library, this thing
840
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:49.639
has been in there, right. Well, I could lie and
841
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:54.159
say nothing's affected, but that's not truthful. So like I
842
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:57.440
do need to tell people that this is vulnerable, but
843
00:41:57.480 --> 00:41:59.920
then wind up making a whole vulnerability pages like well,
844
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:01.760
if you have an if you're on an old version
845
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:04.519
and you can't upgrade, or you can't you know, can't
846
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.880
migrate to the latest, here's a local fix for your
847
00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:09.920
or here's how to detect it. Here's how to fix
848
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:13.920
it in your application itself. But I will fix it
849
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.360
for real Zi's and the you know, the actual commercial
850
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:19.320
versions that I support now. But that was a whole
851
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.679
I never had to deal with anything like that before.
852
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.039
And it was like a, here's the page that says
853
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.800
automappers last free version has a security flaw. It's like, no,
854
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.360
it doesn't. Every version had the security flaw.
855
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:34.199
So yeah, since the beginning of time two kidding.
856
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:36.239
So so let me try to just put this in
857
00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:39.000
wrap it up in a neat summary here. A couple
858
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:41.039
of weeks ago and we talked to Rod Mentioning about
859
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:45.159
the open source maintenance fee that is different than the
860
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:48.239
license that you're selling You're what you're selling, I think,
861
00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:53.280
is a license that includes support, right, And yeah, the
862
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:57.559
maintenance fee is much lower, and it doesn't obligate you
863
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.920
in any way to do any kind of or anything.
864
00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:04.960
It just means that you can now afford to hire
865
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:08.800
the people that have been working for free, essentially in
866
00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:11.559
a perfect world. So yeah, I just wanted to draw
867
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:14.199
that difference. I was thinking, Man, you should have just
868
00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:16.599
used OSMF. You wouldn't have all these headaches. But your
869
00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:20.320
headaches come from those you know, support issues and and
870
00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:21.280
other things like that.
871
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:24.599
Yeah. I was also one thing that I didn't want
872
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:26.119
to do when I was going to this commercial route.
873
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:30.159
I never wanted to charge an individual developer or an
874
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:32.519
individual person, right. I didn't want anyone to think it
875
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:34.280
was coming out of their pocket. It's like, no, this
876
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:36.440
is coming out of the company's pocket because they've invested
877
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.000
in this, invested in your decisions and in the code
878
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:41.559
base as a whole. So that's another reason I was
879
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:43.639
wary of any of those kind of models. Is I
880
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:45.599
did well, I knew the sponsor model just doesn't work.
881
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:48.519
It have sponsors, it is just not feasible, at least
882
00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:51.679
in the Microsoft space for sustainable open source. So I
883
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:54.920
was like, well, I don't want any interest, individual person
884
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:57.400
to give me money. I want a company to give
885
00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:58.639
them money because that's.
886
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:03.159
Well, yeah, with SMF, it is the company that pays,
887
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:07.719
and they do pay through GitHub sponsorship. So I'm wondering, Oh,
888
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:10.239
that's I'm wondering what you think about that.
889
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:12.440
That's what I want would want to target is the
890
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.360
companies because that's you know, that's who's making money off
891
00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:17.880
of the open source right, They're using it for the
892
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:20.199
software that's running their enterprise. So that's what I was
893
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:22.840
really focusing on. But like, yeah, like you all said
894
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:24.920
at the beginning, is that os MF was not was
895
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.679
very early on and I looked at it, but it
896
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.760
was just not quite especially the amount of anxiety I
897
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:33.039
was feeling of what to do. It's like, I need
898
00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:35.400
to screw up on my own decisions and my own model,
899
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.039
and I can only have one person to blame but myself.
900
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:40.880
So I just I was super wary of like trying
901
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.039
anyone else's model out regard.
902
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.239
Okay, but what I found.
903
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:48.119
When I went through my gidhub sponsors at the end was,
904
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:53.800
I think in maybe one or two weeks of business
905
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:56.840
I equalled the total amount of sponsors I got over
906
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:59.280
five years with gid up sponsors. So that was just
907
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.400
a clear sing that's get hub sponsors. Even as prominently
908
00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:04.639
as I can make it, it's just not close to
909
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:10.519
the same level of sustainability as just licensing would be.
910
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:12.679
What do you mean by that, right? What doesn't it
911
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:13.119
do well?
912
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:15.960
So I think the first thing that I saw was
913
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:20.719
that there's not really any way to not really waiting
914
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:24.000
to effectively enforce it outside of what you're looking at
915
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:26.400
the OSMF. That's what I was looking at, because that
916
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:29.800
wasn't a thing. So just asking for money, I would
917
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:32.519
get a lot of individual developers money. I don't want
918
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:36.000
your your pocket money that you would spend at Starbucks,
919
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:37.719
like that was the lowest tiers, like five bucks a
920
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.800
month or something. Okay, eventually I don't want them. I
921
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.360
don't want their money. And I would get some companies
922
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:46.800
that would that would sponsor. We'd have like internal programs whatever.
923
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:50.320
So hopefully that can get easier over time.
924
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:52.960
Well, yeah, you make the point that, and I've seen
925
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:54.719
this over and over again. Yeah. The only place you
926
00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:57.159
find get hub sponsors that are companies is when a
927
00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:01.519
company has built an initiative them sell to work through
928
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:04.039
that sponsor process because it's a pain in the butt.
929
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:06.760
And that's what we wind up doing as well. So
930
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.639
our because we use open source as well, we we
931
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:11.599
we get back then through the open source or the
932
00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:14.280
getub sponsors as well to the libraries we use.
933
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:19.760
How MF addresses this compliance thing is by making it
934
00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:22.800
part of the EULA and you know, telling the companies
935
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.760
to review the EULA and then they will they want
936
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:28.320
to be compliant so that they do that. But if
937
00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:32.400
you have one company that has ten products that use
938
00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.440
the tool, you don't have to pay ten times. It's
939
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:39.760
just once once per company in the EULA through GitHub sponsors.
940
00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:41.960
I heard. I know people too are sort of looking
941
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.199
at Newgate to help out with this because you know,
942
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:47.519
like NPM also has the ability to do that. But
943
00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:49.639
I've talked a few people like Handsel One for example,
944
00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:52.239
is like NuGet can't be a bank. That's just like that,
945
00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:54.519
you're asking Nugate to be a bank. Yeah, right, And
946
00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:57.320
that's hard enough for get to do. Via the sponsorship program,
947
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.239
I could have put in my tax id all that
948
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:03.480
stuff to make sure it all gets gets reported correctly,
949
00:47:03.559 --> 00:47:07.519
Like that's that's a hard problem to worry about worldwide. Yeah,
950
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.119
sort of compliant from that sort of thing. And that's
951
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:15.679
for OSMF. I think they do go through get up sponsors.
952
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:19.320
I can't remember that just like eliminates one really hard
953
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:21.440
problem for them to solve, is that, right?
954
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:24.480
Yeah? But also, like I said, it's it's in the
955
00:47:24.519 --> 00:47:26.639
yula that they have to pay if they make over
956
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:30.920
a certain amount per year, and it's usually not not
957
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:32.760
even close to what you're talking about.
958
00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:34.559
There was a there was a time before where I
959
00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:39.159
was looking at you know, if enterprises contribute time to
960
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:42.119
the projects, then that would also kind of count. But
961
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:44.920
in reality, that's that's like that that's a non starter.
962
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:50.039
You can't that's just too difficulties will dedicate whatever. The
963
00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:52.480
only way that would happen is if they acquhire, you know,
964
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.639
the people that actually built the software to work on
965
00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:58.760
it at their company, to say world dedicate you know,
966
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:00.800
a month of time, not even a month, like a
967
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:03.840
day a month for someone to do open source. That's
968
00:48:03.880 --> 00:48:05.960
just too difficult for a maintainer.
969
00:48:06.039 --> 00:48:07.960
Well, and the silly part is the company who can
970
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:11.199
afford to have their devs contribute to the project can
971
00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:16.480
also afford to pay. It's so disproportionate what that even represents.
972
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:18.280
And then what I've seen is that's just that's just
973
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:20.239
easier for them. They're used to it. The processes are
974
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:22.840
set up to just yeah, go through that, so like, well,
975
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:23.360
I'll just.
976
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:27.840
Well, and the reason for me as an employer, why
977
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:29.840
would I want my people to do that. It's like,
978
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:33.000
there's an open source library you're using that is slowing
979
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:35.800
you down in some way, so go fix it, don't worry,
980
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:38.639
I can. I'll pay you to do it. Right, But
981
00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:41.039
at the same time, it's like, why would you also contribute?
982
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:43.480
Like doesn't they go together? Yeah?
983
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:46.159
I know, problem with that too. I mean that's what
984
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.480
I do with my open source with other projects. Right,
985
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:51.880
If I have a problem, I just will just submit
986
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:54.440
a poor request. But that's still very much like it's
987
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:57.239
pain based on my end. It's nothing that contributed the
988
00:48:57.280 --> 00:48:58.280
maintainer can count on.
989
00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:01.800
Yeah, it's also so exciting option based, right, like that,
990
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:03.880
that's got to be the rarest case of them all.
991
00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:06.360
Well and get help. We'll show you very clearly how
992
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.119
many contributors you've got like that. It's a few dozen.
993
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:13.480
Yes, I that was one other thing I hadn't worry about.
994
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:18.159
Was just such a long tail of contributors. People are
995
00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:20.960
asking like, are you going to give revenue money back
996
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.719
to all the contributors over the year, right, And the
997
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:25.880
answer is now, that's like impossible.
998
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:30.239
Yeah, and a very bad practice anyway, Like that's hugely problematic.
999
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:33.519
Even so, even when I went when I started charging,
1000
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:35.400
I tried to go back to my GitHub sponsors to
1001
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:38.119
find the companies that sponsored me so they could have
1002
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:40.639
given free license. I couldn't even get that information out.
1003
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:43.800
It's not shared to me be a sponsors, Like, well,
1004
00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:47.679
I did what I can, Like.
1005
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:50.440
You turned off the GitHub sponsors.
1006
00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:54.199
I did, but I can't even stop the existing sponsorships.
1007
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:57.719
I can't do that. I'm still getting money and I
1008
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:00.239
have a big thing like stop giving me money, but
1009
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:03.480
I cannot stop them from doing that. I've turned off
1010
00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:04.280
my sponsorship.
1011
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:06.679
But okay, I love it.
1012
00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:13.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's it's been it's been really fun.
1013
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:15.639
I don't definitely don't regret. I didn't talk to a
1014
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:19.360
single person that said they regretted it, regretted the decision.
1015
00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:21.800
There's definitely many that said I wish it did X,
1016
00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:24.360
Y and Z differently, But I have not met a
1017
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:27.760
single open source to commercial person that said I regret
1018
00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:31.480
that decision. It's all of been right, regret it, Like, well,
1019
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:34.480
I guess I have to try. Yeah, well, one thing
1020
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:35.039
I wish I did.
1021
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:37.840
Thought that it isn't work, not that it is in heartache,
1022
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:40.199
but ultimately it's worthwhile.
1023
00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:43.280
So Oudi de Han from particular the in service bus.
1024
00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:47.039
He told me in a conversation, he said, just let
1025
00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:50.880
you know, Jimmy, you're about to become an enterprise software company. Like,
1026
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:52.840
well not, I'm just going to put a link up
1027
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:54.800
and that's that, Like people just buy it from there.
1028
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:57.039
It's like, no, but that's not how it's going to go.
1029
00:50:57.559 --> 00:50:59.639
Yeah, that's not what's going to happen is.
1030
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:02.760
Dealing with all the procurement and all that stuff. Like
1031
00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:05.480
that's definitely a thing that is my life now.
1032
00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:09.559
Yeah, obviously worthwhile at least so far. Maybe we'll check
1033
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:11.519
in in a year and see how you're feeling.
1034
00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:16.880
Then, yeah, we'll see. It's been fun so far for sure, though.
1035
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:17.920
It's awesome. Dude.
1036
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:21.840
So you have any other open source projects that you're considering.
1037
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:24.280
Doing this with the pipeline, Oh no, no, no, just
1038
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.079
to these are the two these are the two that
1039
00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:31.159
I saw that had the best potential because they're used
1040
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:35.000
in production systems, like they get shipped with your production application.
1041
00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:38.360
I have other ones I have value exactly lasting like
1042
00:51:38.440 --> 00:51:41.239
sticky sticky sort of value, but I'm other ones that
1043
00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:44.199
are either I don't want to maintain anymore. Like one
1044
00:51:44.199 --> 00:51:46.760
example was I for the longest time I was the
1045
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:51.559
official Mango dB open pelemetry provider and done that just
1046
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:54.559
because it was it was getting linked in with Aspire
1047
00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:57.239
and all that stuff. But that's just because of a
1048
00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:00.280
client and I needed it. So I built it it right.
1049
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:05.440
I built it it it, I never edited it. I
1050
00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:07.639
want to reduce the number of open source projects that
1051
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:11.079
I have to maintain because ideally they're just like these
1052
00:52:11.079 --> 00:52:13.679
are problems that have been like solved by other built
1053
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:16.360
in things. So the Mongo one, for example, is now
1054
00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:20.159
built into the Mongo library as it should be, so
1055
00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:22.719
I get to delete the library. It's it's fantastic cool.
1056
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:25.960
So no, I don't. I don't see anything else that
1057
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.880
has that potential. But I definitely looked at the time
1058
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:29.239
like Okay, if I'm going to do this, I need
1059
00:52:29.239 --> 00:52:32.679
to do it now. I can't just piecemeal add things
1060
00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:35.440
on later on. That's again make people mad once not
1061
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:37.679
you know, several times over several years.
1062
00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:39.920
And is there a way that our listeners can get
1063
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:41.639
in touch with you if they have questions about, you know,
1064
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:44.239
or want to talk to you about your experience or
1065
00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:46.679
maybe a blog or your discord or something.
1066
00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:49.480
Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean we'll we'll leave all the
1067
00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:54.559
links after this, of course. But you know, I even
1068
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:57.159
had to have a contact me form that I didn't
1069
00:52:57.199 --> 00:53:00.000
have before. If you're interested in a quote or sale
1070
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:00.800
or whatever, then.
1071
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:05.880
Maybe right, yeah, I know. Oh no, oot, he's right,
1072
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:07.960
that's a pretty good bet.
1073
00:53:08.199 --> 00:53:08.400
Yeah.
1074
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:10.559
Probably, I wouldn't bet against no.
1075
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:15.719
Well, okay, well what's next for you? What are you doing?
1076
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:17.719
What's on your inbox? On your to do list?
1077
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:20.639
Oh gosh, So the next big thing the last year
1078
00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:23.079
has just been learning how to product company because I'd
1079
00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:28.440
never done that before. I have like over ten years
1080
00:53:28.840 --> 00:53:32.519
of issues that I just closed, won't fix wow, that
1081
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:35.079
I'll be going back through and like actually building the
1082
00:53:35.159 --> 00:53:38.320
roadmap for the products because for the longest time it
1083
00:53:38.360 --> 00:53:43.440
was just strictly reactionary about what did my immediate customer need?
1084
00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:46.440
And I'll build into it right now that I've kind
1085
00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:49.559
of got a handle on the business side of things.
1086
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.199
It's time to go back and sort of what have
1087
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:54.239
been people I've been asking for that I've just said
1088
00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:56.719
no to because not because it wasn't a good idea,
1089
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.159
just I didn't feel like it.
1090
00:53:58.239 --> 00:53:59.960
I didn't have the time having the time.
1091
00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:03.400
So that's that's the next kind of exciting thing is
1092
00:54:03.400 --> 00:54:06.440
what are the what are the different things that people
1093
00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:08.280
have been asking for over the years, and what do
1094
00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:11.960
people need in the future, whether it's MCP service or
1095
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:16.239
AOT friendly those are all things I want to get back.
1096
00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:19.519
I got back into that I had just neglected so
1097
00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:21.480
long over the This is great.
1098
00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:24.159
So this is benefiting the product for people who don't
1099
00:54:24.159 --> 00:54:27.519
even have a subscription. So it's good news all around,
1100
00:54:27.800 --> 00:54:32.119
I hope. So yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, Jimmy, It's been
1101
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:34.360
a delight talking to you, as it always is, whether
1102
00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:36.280
it's in person or at a conference or at a
1103
00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:38.760
bar having a beer, it's always always good to talk.
1104
00:54:38.840 --> 00:54:41.360
Yeah, it's great to be on all right, and we'll talk.
1105
00:54:41.199 --> 00:54:58.880
To you next time on dot net rocks.
1106
00:55:04.519 --> 00:55:07.239
Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net
1107
00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:11.320
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00:55:20.679 --> 00:55:22.840
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1111
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1113
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:33.559
back to show number one, recorded.
1114
00:55:33.079 --> 00:55:35.840
In September two thousand and two. And make sure you
1115
00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:39.039
check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now
1116
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:40.199
go write some code.
1117
00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:41.320
See you next time.
1118
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:43.679
You got Javan
1119
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:46.119
And