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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the 28th of September. I'm Holly Wainwright.
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Speaker 2: I'm Jessie Stephens.
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Speaker 3: And I'm Amelia Lester.
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Speaker 1: And here's what made our agenda for today.
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Speaker 2: 814 hours, parents and an impossible equation. And to add to that, why we have an unusual visitor in our office today.
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Speaker 1: That's my fault. When do we stop talking about ancient exes? Welcome to Taylor Swift's new music and a very big day for T Swift.
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Speaker 3: Plus, are we going to be paying friends back for coffee?
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Speaker 4: There's a controversial piece of life advice we need to unpack.
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Speaker 1: But first... Forgive me for my parenting sins, friends. It was uncovered on the weekend that I have missed a very important piece of education for my children. It was the AFL Grand Final. I don't know if you watched it. It was an amazing game. You would have watched it, didn't you, Amelia? You love AFL. How good was that game? But anyway, possibly better than the game itself was the pre-game performance by one Kylie Minogue. I was so excited. I was home alone. Well, I wasn't. I had my kids, but Brent wasn't there. And I was bouncing around and I was like, come watch Kylie with me. And my daughter was like, who is Kylie Minogue? She did not know who she was.
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Speaker 2: Have you sat her down to watch the Netflix documentary?
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Speaker 1: Clearly, this is what the school holiday schedule is going to be about.
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Speaker 2: Just in time.
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Speaker 1: Full immersion. But I posted about it and so many people said, same, same, same, same. And I was like, Generation X is failing here, passing on the importance of our cultural icons.
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Speaker 2: Padam, padam. That won a Grammy Award like two years ago. I'm sorry, but that is on Matilda for being uncool.
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Speaker 1: I agree. But you know what? The excellent show made me realise that Kylie's team were onto this because they dropped into that performance quite a lot of Gen Z and millennial reference points, right?
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Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 1: Notably the Inspired Unemployed.
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Speaker 2: I loved that. They were so good. And they teased on social.
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Speaker 1: They were like.
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Speaker 2: Locomotion. Is that what the song's called?
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Speaker 1: Yes. Oh, dear.
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Speaker 4: Yes.
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Speaker 2: That's not my Kylie reference.
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Speaker 1: And she calls them out. And they are podcasters, comedians, massive TikTok people.
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Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
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Speaker 1: Who all the young ones would know. So they were on the stage.
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Speaker 2: They were on the stage. They were a fantastic Easter egg. You could tell they were stoked and a little confused as to how they made it.
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Speaker 6: G-flip?
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Speaker 1: G-flip.
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Speaker 2: Who is recently when absolutely, you know, has been an enormous musician for years and years. But Off Campus, which everyone watched this year, their song on Off Campus blew up and suddenly has this international appeal. And, of course, and we don't.
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Speaker 3: Selling sunsets.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's not about who you're with. But Chris Schell is, of course, the spouse of G Flip. There are photos every five minutes of them. It is just an iconic partnership.
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Speaker 1: And then Dom Dollar, who, look, to be honest, I don't know about Dom Dollar because I'm not that cool. Okay. Huge producer DJ, right?
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Speaker 2: Coachella, nominated for a Grammy.
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Speaker 1: And Australian.
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Speaker 2: And Australian. And not only Australian. All three have lived in Melbourne. So Kylie's Melbourne.
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Speaker 1: Perfect.
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Speaker 2: G Flip has been Melbourne. And Dom Dollar, I think, was born somewhere else but, like, grew up in Melbourne. And so they, like, they knew what... AFL was. And I just think last year it was Snoop. Then before that, I think it was Katy Perry and then Robbie Williams. There hasn't been an Aussie act in five years. And you can tell the look in their eyes when they're like, I don't know what they're about to do with that ball, but I've been paid a lot of money.
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Speaker 4: I also just love what struck me about it. I mean, I just thought it was a tremendous 20 minutes, but what struck me about it is she is such a generous person. collaborator and performer with others. She works so well with others. So in addition to the three artists you've mentioned, there was also William Barton. And he played the guitar during Confide in Me. And Kylie was wearing what looked to be a gold foil drysabone, which I loved because Melbourne tends.
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Speaker 1: To drizzle a little bit. And it was indeed drizzling.
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Speaker 4: And the two of them together were just so electric. And just the way that she brought in each of these performers and really shared the stage with them.
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Speaker 3: They weren't just cameos.
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Speaker 1: Why did I feel emotional during that Kylie set, apart from the fact that I realised I had really ruined my daughter's childhood by not introducing her to Kylie.
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Speaker 3: Because Kylie is everything.
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Speaker 4: I mean, G Flip said this week they have a tattoo on their arm that reads, Kylie thinks I'm cute. Like Kylie's appeal transcends generations, whether or not those generations know of her. Once they do know of her, they love her.
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Speaker 2: And she's 58 and at the top of her game. Like this is not her looking back at her career. Like she is in it in a way that feels, I think as well, you know, when you watch one documentary about someone and then you become like they're basically their biographer, that's me right now. It's like the fact I saw that documentary relatively recently meant something. I felt I knew all the law.
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Speaker 3: Are you writing Ray Gunn's biography?
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Speaker 4: Is that the moment that you're announcing here?
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Speaker 2: I was like, where's Nick Cave, her best friend?
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Speaker 6: I know.
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Speaker 1: When she did start doing La La La, which is burnt into our heads because we performed that once for a live show, Jesus Christ. My daughter did go, oh, I know this one. I know this one. It was a flawless performance.
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Speaker 3: Flawless performance.
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Speaker 2: An address at the National Press Club last week by CEO of the Parenthood, Georgie Dent, has since gone viral. The Parenthood is an Australian advocacy organisation. It represents parents, carers and family. It's not for profit. And it basically, it has a whole lot of legislation ideas. It's had some success in the past. Georgie has been photographed with Albanese. They are working on making childcare more affordable and extending paid parental leave. I'd like it on the record. The Georgie Dent, former Mamma Mia.
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Speaker 4: I know.
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Speaker 2: We taught her everything she knew.
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Speaker 1: Far out. Well, we did specifically, Jessie, yes. She is an all-round excellent person. We're obsessed with Georgie. Look, we didn't teach her anything, but she's gone on to do it. I'm sure we taught her something, like where the toilets were and how to get the Barry's tea, probably that kind of stuff.
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Speaker 2: Dent is a mother to three children and she spoke at the National Press Club about how having a family in Australia has become... unaffordable, how it puts enormous pressure on families, and it's ultimately contributing to the declining national birth rate, which our politicians keep yelling about. She has a bunch of solutions, and I implore everyone to go and listen to the speech. But there was one point she made during her address that struck a particular chord. Here's what she said.
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Speaker 5: The school day runs roughly nine until three. The work day does not. Australian children get 12 weeks of school holidays. A full-time employee gets four weeks of annual leave. New ABC analysis found that two parents working full-time with primary school-aged children have to find an additional 814 hours of care a year to bridge that gap, even if they take.
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Speaker 3: All their annual leave separately.
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Speaker 2: 814 hours, that's 107 full-time days that parents are trying to scramble together while also trying to pay their bills with salaries that have not increased at the same rate as childcare costs. Holly, this was shared by just about every parent I know.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, same.
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Speaker 2: Why did it touch such a nerve, do you think?
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Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think a lot of what Georgie was saying in that speech about the parenthood campaigns, we all sort of know Every parent feels it, but she articulated it in such a clear and reasonable way and engaging way. And she's very good at that. People in the know tell me that she's always being approached to run for politics because she's so engaging and so good. So far, she isn't declining those offers, I believe. But I think she articulated in a very accessible, approachable way, something that every parent feels, but often just internalizes blame for, you know, Every parent I know when their kids hit school get this jolt of like, how does this work? And to be clear, Georgie Dent in this speech wasn't really suggesting that school hours should be extended or that holidays should be reduced or anything like that. She was more using this as sort of emblematic of how disconnected work and family are and how out of date a lot of the care and work hours are when they meet. school yes and the thing is is I was thinking because I those hours that even on vibes that amount of hours felt right to me and I'm sitting here now my kids are my oldest is finishing school next year so we've survived that pretty much although they're both here today so one teenager lolling in the kitchen belongs to me another one's turning up later can I just.
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Speaker 2: Tell the out louders that I just saw. You know you see things that are like parenting goals. I was in the kitchen before and I saw your daughter on a beanbag reading a book made of paper. And I thought, Holly's paid Matilda so much money to do that in front of all her colleagues.
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Speaker 1: I was like, this is called a book.
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Speaker 2: She's holding it upside down and she doesn't know what.
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Speaker 1: To do with it but she is holding it she's reading it for school but like so even now we're still struggling with their school holiday hours but i was thinking where did we find those 814 hours because they're hard to come by down the back of the couch whatever we did not have family around when the kids were smaller we found them we paid for some of them of course school holiday care was a big thing and that was really competitive to get into at my kids primary school because all the parents were working. And so... It was expensive and it was difficult to get into. So that was a mega stress. But lots of that, lots of like, today you'll be going, you know, to learn how to paint and blah, blah. And we were like, that sounds great.
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Speaker 4: Go, go, go. Who cares?
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Speaker 1: You bartered those hours with friends. You know, I'll have your kids on my day if you can have my kids on your day and that kind of thing. And we absolutely split holidays, which I love that Georgie referenced that. is that if you're in a couple and you're raising kids at this time, you will take your holiday separately. Now, what does that also do to family stress? I've got a lot of friends whose relationships did not make it through this period of parenting for a variety of reasons, but the level of stress that all this puts on families is definitely part of it. How are you getting through? Where are you finding these hours, Amelia?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's not easy.
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Speaker 4: I think my children are wandering around the bush in Sydney somewhere today, hopefully with a supervising adult. But you mentioned, Jessie, the idea of it hitting a nerve. And what I have to admit I was surprised by were the comments I saw on Mamma Mia's Instagram and on other articles talking about this. And they did not all echo what Holly just said at all. In fact... I would say a majority of the comments were critical of the idea that we need to come up with a new way of structuring schools. So I just want to give you a few examples. One person wrote, this might be controversial, but if you can't afford to give up your full-time job to have children and raise them yourself, then don't have them. That was a popular comment. Another, that was an extreme one, but there was this sentiment, and this was by the way, the top comment on the post. Does Georgie know schools are for education, not free childcare? Now, by the way, I'm sure Georgie knows, and I'm glad that you set us up, Holly, with the idea that Georgie Dent wasn't actually even prescribing specific policy solutions here. But I thought it was interesting that there's still seemingly what I took from that is that there is a big disconnect between people who are having to make this juggle right now as we speak today, this week, and people who are not. And I think that we're not doing a good job collectively of bridging that gap in understanding.
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Speaker 1: It's such a good point, Amelia, that often, and I don't want to disparage the people making those comments because everybody has their own story, right? But often, once you've made it through that part of parenting, and I literally often say to Brent and my friends, I don't know how we did. I don't know how we got through it. Those Early years with both working full time, little kids, no family, all that stuff. I don't know how we did it. We were financially stressed. We were time stressed, but we did. Once you make it through that bit, it feels very ungenerous to me to turn around and kind of go, well, you just have to make it work. Everybody makes it work. rather than to recognise that progress might be better needed to make families less stressed. I really hope I don't become that person. If I start becoming that person, will you throw things at me?
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Speaker 3: I will. I will.
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Speaker 2: I'll make sure I complain about it a lot so that it's front of mind for you.
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Speaker 1: Good, good, good.
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Speaker 2: There was a really good line that Georgie had later on about basically that the time and children need to be looked after and someone has to absorb that. And disproportionately, women absorb that. And whether or not it's a choice that they work flexibly or that they lean out, the fact that she just basically went, and this is something I've been talking to so many of my friends about, is that this, I don't even know if feminism has anything to do with it, but this moment was meant to offer women more choices and I don't know if we do have more choices because if you need to go to work in order to pay for your, family's livelihood and you need to go back to work sooner than you would like, then that's not really a choice. If you need to stay at home because your salary won't cover childcare costs, that's not really a choice. And so you've got the economic realities. You also have the social expectations, which are that the man goes back to work full time, which is socially what is expected, what is expected from workplaces. It is harder to reinvent that. I know that a lot of heterosexual couples are trying to, but this is why I think that marriages suffer because there are these moments of just like, how do we solve this impossible problem? And it disproportionately lands in Yeah.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, that's all true. And it's also I love your point, Amelia, about whether or not how you feel about this and whether or not you're going to throw out that well-worn line of like, if you can't afford to have kids, don't have kids. And then you wonder why that why we're in a cost of living crisis and everything getting more expensive, the birth rates falling. It's like, OK, someone do the maths. One of the things I love about what Georgie always says, though, is she really hammers how important fathers are in this conversation. This isn't just a conversation for women. And the stats that are around modern Australian families now show that it's true, no question, that women are still disproportionately taking leave from work and working fewer hours. But men's stats are changing. Those gaps are getting smaller and how important it is. to not just accept that that's the way it is. Because also women are increasingly more tertiary, more well-educated than men. The stats are showing that. So over time, the assumption that the man is always going to have the better paid job, it's just going to shift. It's just going to move. And so I think the idea of this being really flexible is really important. And I love that in the messaging that the parenthood does. They celebrate fathers a lot and I'm all for that. But I think It's inevitable that the question comes, well, what do you want to do about all this? And the parenthood have some very actionable things that they are asking for governments. And it's not about school hours, as we've said, but it is about paid parental leave. It is about changes to the way that childcare is funded. And it is about employers being more accepting of caring responsibilities. And she points to some companies who do it exceptionally well. Business owners are going to be screaming about that because they already have so many expectations on what they need to provide and times are tough in all directions. But I just think that constantly shrugging and going, that's the way it is. Is one of the things that's making families feel crazy.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And I love that she calls that out.
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Speaker 2: And I also think that that's the way it is and that's the way it's always been. I think that generationally there can be an attitude that's like, well, we did it, why can't you? But what she was pointing to was that, no, no, no, the structures are different now. It is more expensive and our salaries aren't going up at the same rate. Like there is more pressure in this moment than there has been historically and that's why we're finding it so hard.
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Speaker 4: And it's also not just about people who currently have families. I think one sad aspect of where we're at is that children themselves are becoming a luxury good. So for people who don't yet have families, but who might want to have children in the future, they're looking at the maths and it's not adding up for them either.
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Speaker 3: And that's really sad.
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Speaker 4: The Parenthood actually did a study on how much it costs to raise a child these days. One child is sitting at $ 17, 800 a year. And two or more is costing $ 36, 500. So I can imagine if you're in your 20s or in your 30s and looking at those numbers and then looking at how much it costs to buy a house, I find it sad that people don't even have, as you say, Jessie, the choice anymore. They might feel they don't have the choice to have children. And that's a loss for all of.
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Speaker 3: Us, I think.
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Speaker 4: After the break, what is the dollar amount for which you should pay a friend back? Should you pay a friend back for a cup of coffee?
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Speaker 2: Amelia, you buy one coffee for me.
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Speaker 3: I'd be meaning to raise this with you, Jessie.
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Speaker 4: So Johanna Cosgrove in The Guardian argues that you should not request repayment for anything under, wait.
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Speaker 3: For it, dollar figure, $ 15. That is the figure she has determined.
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Speaker 4: And her reasoning is $ 20 is.
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Speaker 3: A crisp note. It's potentially a meal.
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Speaker 4: $ 15, that.
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Speaker 3: Feels about right as this sort of threshold.
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Speaker 4: She says, if something is under $ 15 and you buy it for me, know that I will do the same for you next time. This is called trust and this is called reciprocity. Generosity, she writes, is an important skill. I thought that was interesting.
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Speaker 3: It is a skill. It's not a trait.
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Speaker 4: It's something that you need to maybe work on and develop and acquire. Holly, what do you think of this rule?
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Speaker 1: I love it. Nailed the amount as far as I'm concerned.
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Speaker 2: The vibe feels right.
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Speaker 1: The vibe feels right. The tricky part to this is if $ 15 really is, you know, an amount that will affect your budget for the week, the month, the day, all those things, and it is for lots of people and maybe even more so after tomorrow when apparently happily we're getting another interest rate hike, then you don't accept coffees from other people. Do you know what I mean? If you're really watching your pennies... then that's why people often will be like, no, don't buy me one because I don't want to owe you. Because there's nothing worse than getting to... There's nothing worse in the anxiety of a budget than at any minute someone might call in a debt that you forgot you had, even if it's only a coffee. So people will often be like, don't... Oh.
00:19:24
Speaker 3: That's a great point.
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Speaker 1: I don't want you to buy me a coffee. I don't want you to buy me a drink. I don't want you to shout, whatever it is, because I don't want to owe you money.
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Speaker 4: Now, I.
00:19:33
Speaker 1: I'm not, as we've often discussed on this podcast, I am not particularly great with money and I will often just forget things like that. But there have been times in my life where there is no way I'm forgetting because those dollars and cents make a big difference. So I think it's interesting because I love what she writes about in this Cosgrove writes about in this where she says that there's a cultural thing here she was talking about how her parents are Dutch and they're obsessive about financial fairness. And she said, have you ever heard of the term going Dutch? And I was like, I am embarrassed to acknowledge that I'd never really considered the origins of that. And she was saying that, you know, some Northern European cultures, it's part of the culture to be like fastidiously meticulous about financial fairness, but that in a culture that is a generosity is seen as a as a flex and an important thing free and easy.
00:20:29
Speaker 2: But we're also so multicultural that you have friends who have come from very different having a very different relationship with with money and with reciprocity so um Like cultures all over the world, some see money as collective. So if they have it, it's just like you share it. Some have a very individualised nature of like, this is mine, don't touch it. And when those come into conflict, it can be very awkward. My issue is that I.
00:20:58
Speaker 1: remember.
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Speaker 2: So if I've bought you a coffee or you've bought me a coffee, I will absolutely remember. And then I will always remember to pay you.
00:21:07
Speaker 1: Back, right?
00:21:08
Speaker 2: But sometimes when you're mates with someone who's just very forgetful. You never... Well, sort of like Holly, right?
00:21:16
Speaker 3: That's what you're saying.
00:21:17
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've forgotten to buy both of you a coffee back at various points.
00:21:20
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that if you're in the position where that isn't going to cost you, then it's fine. I do think the line is a meal. I quite like that. I think if you're going to go and buy someone a meal, that's a whole other thing. But if you can't, if the reciprocity thing makes you awkward, because for some people it's actually the receiving that's as awkward as the giving, like sitting with someone having bought you something can be really, really uncomfortable. Then you just have a coffee at home, right? Like you just, you invite people to your house so that you don't have that awkward back and forth.
00:21:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:21:49
Speaker 4: The cultural thing is really interesting because as out loud as we'll know, my partner is American. We moved here a couple of years ago and I remember we went to the pub with some new friends after we arrived and And the new friends, the dad in this couple was explaining to my partner about the notion of a shout and what it means to shout someone a drink.
00:22:16
Speaker 2: Everyone's a lot more limited with alcohol though.
00:22:18
Speaker 3: That's true.
00:22:19
Speaker 2: We're not having eight drinks anymore.
00:22:21
Speaker 3: Are we? That's true.
00:22:22
Speaker 4: And so Johnny thought that he should do the right thing culturally and so he bought this guy a drink, he shouted him a drink, and then our joke became we literally never saw them again.
00:22:32
Speaker 1: LAUGHTER They moved.
00:22:34
Speaker 3: And drinks are expensive these days.
00:22:36
Speaker 4: Which I don't know if the move was related to the fact that he just felt unable to buy Johnny a drink, but it's a bit annoying.
00:22:43
Speaker 1: It is interesting, right? Because I grew up in Britain, we call it around, and if you couldn't afford a round, you don't go to the pub. Do you know what I mean? That was the thing. It's like you don't just go to the... And I'm almost certain that this has shifted now. One of the reasons that you just said is that, A, if there's six of you, you're probably not having six drinks now. And B, alcohol is so much more expensive than it was. But culturally, the idea was you wouldn't dream of just going to the bar and buying yourself a drink and walking back to your table with that. That would be an anathema to pub culture. And I was thinking about that, because that's a shout here and around there, and how that now would bankrupt you in most ways. City pubs for sure and like regional pubs and everywhere. Like that would bankrupt you to be buying everybody a drink all the time.
00:23:31
Speaker 2: I reckon that cash made this easier because you could throw a $ 5 note at someone. And now it's so awkward and official and antisocial to be like, can you transfer me? And then everyone gets their phones out and does a tap and they look at it.
00:23:47
Speaker 3: It's the app thing.
00:23:48
Speaker 4: Have you used the app Splitwise? This is what is good on trips with friends. And you basically throw everything in, including the coffees. That's actually, I would argue, one instance where you can throw the coffees into the pot. Because if you're going away with friends, everyone just puts every single expense into Splitwise. But there is something slightly off how at the end of your weekend away, it's like, can you transfer me $ 31.
00:24:14
Speaker 2: 50?
00:24:14
Speaker 1: It feels annoying.
00:24:15
Speaker 3: I know.
00:24:16
Speaker 2: This is why. Wouldn't it just be lovely to have unlimited money and just be the person?
00:24:20
Speaker 4: Well, except Cosgrove has a bit of a controversial opinion on this. She says that it's never the people being paid the least who ask for the money back.
00:24:29
Speaker 3: She says that if you grow up rich.
00:24:31
Speaker 4: And therefore never want for anything, what you don't fundamentally understand is how a generous act can fulfill both the needs of the person who is being given the thing and the person who is doing the giving. She says if you've never wanted for anything, you don't get that fundamentally.
00:24:48
Speaker 2: Wow, that is such an interesting insight.
00:24:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, because she quotes, Robbie grew up really poor in a really big family and they never had any money. And now she's doing great. Plenty of money, right? And the interviewer from the New York Times is like, what's the biggest shock about hanging around with rich people when you grew up with nothing? And Robbie says how tight they all are. Like, you walk into a house in the neighborhood I grew up in and it would be expected that you could help yourself to anything. But you go into a fancy person's house and you're not allowed to touch the fridge. And I was like, yeah, there's a lot. more to generosity culturally than who's got more than somebody else.
00:25:27
Speaker 4: The most generous person I think I know, she grew up very poor and then became very rich. Now that is the ideal combination for creating a generous person. And I think the reason why she's so generous is because she knows what a big difference it made when she was less well off for other people to show her generosity. And now you can see the genuine joy and pleasure she gets from being able to spread her wealth around. So it's a really unique combination. Do we think that $ 15 is the right number? Because Holly, I think you had some.
00:26:03
Speaker 1: I was talking to my daughter about it because we were coming up together today because she's in the office, as discussed. And she obviously has a part-time job and her money is very precious to her. But I said, would you ask for less than $ 10 to be transferred if you bought your friend an iced coffee, of course, because that's what the kids all drink. And she said no, but she said, but anything over 15. It was the natural stopping point.
00:26:27
Speaker 2: See, I have a theory. I like the number 15, but I also think if it's a $ 14 sandwich, I.
00:26:34
Speaker 3: Think it's a meal.
00:26:35
Speaker 5: That feels different to a $ 9 overpriced coffee.
00:26:38
Speaker 1: You're so right.
00:26:39
Speaker 2: I think that food is the line.
00:26:41
Speaker 3: Food has got to be where you look after yourself.
00:26:44
Speaker 2: A small piece of cake, okay. But a sandwich, that's a whole meal.
00:26:50
Speaker 1: In a moment... It's Taylor Swift's big day. One of Taylor Swift's many big days today is the VMAs. But everybody is talking about why there are a couple of things she can't seem to let go of in her new music, We Unpack. As we're recording this today, Taylor Swift is running the VMAs. She is wearing the most beautiful of gowns.
00:27:13
Speaker 2: I usually have no opinions, but I looked at it. I thought, that's a lovely gown. You look very nice, Taylor.
00:27:17
Speaker 3: Elegant, classy, classy, very classy.
00:27:20
Speaker 1: She looks amazing. She's getting a big deal award today. She's getting the inaugural artist director honours, recognising her contribution to the art of the music video, among others, no doubt. And she's definitely not listening to or reading any of the frankly pretty terrible reviews of the music that she dropped at the weekend.
00:27:38
Speaker 2: See, I would argue, having now read the lyrics... to the music she dropped that she is absolutely reading the terrible reviews.
00:27:44
Speaker 1: What are the things I want to get to, right? So in case you've missed it, it's always a big cultural deal when Taylor Swift drops new music, of course. It feels like something that happens pretty regularly now. Last week she dropped four new songs and it wasn't a new album or a new single. They are an addendum. to her album Life of a Showgirl. There are like four songs that make up an EP that kind of is part of the Showgirl thing. She said the Showgirl album was such a big success that she flew to Sweden to celebrate with Max Martin and they couldn't, the producer, and they couldn't help themselves. They had to throw down these new songs.
00:28:17
Speaker 4: That's like when we go out to dinner, we just can't help but record a podcast.
00:28:22
Speaker 1: And we're like, the people need.
00:28:23
Speaker 3: To hear it.
00:28:26
Speaker 1: It's pretty standard now, by the way, that when the most successful pop musician in the world drops music, it will be sneered at. Like she gets, she always gets sneers, right? Ever since sort of folklore, I feel like a lot of sneers have come her way for basically for having the audacity to not go away and have a lie down. But I do want to pick something up that's interesting about the content of these particular songs. And it's to do with what you're saying, Jessie. It's like she is at the pinnacle of everything. She is apparently happier than she's ever been. She's met the love of her life. I'll get to those lyrics in a minute. But she's still writing about shitty exes and internet haters. So for a start, Patient Zero is the sort of lead single of this. The lyrics go, if you want to party, I don't know why we want to party because... I don't want to party.
00:29:14
Speaker 2: That's an assumption that just does not sit.
00:29:17
Speaker 1: Well with us. But if you want to party with somebody who might know about the devil on his shoulder underneath his halo, she's talking about an ex. If you're sick of him, I got you. I was patient. Zero, the song goes. I've got to be honest. I've been expecting your call. No, it's not a bad time at all. I heard somebody saying there's trouble in paradise and my lips are sealed right now. So the thing is, the whole story, of this song is somebody who's been out with one of Taylor's people is calling her to be like, was he always this much of a dick? And Taylor's unloading.
00:29:48
Speaker 2: So it's clearly about Joe Jonas.
00:29:51
Speaker 4: Well, it's clearly not about Zoe Kravitz, her very good friend, calling about Harry Styles.
00:29:56
Speaker 3: Because there's no trouble in that paradise.
00:29:58
Speaker 1: No, there's not.
00:30:00
Speaker 2: Wait, there definitely is in trouble. Are you being sarcastic?
00:30:02
Speaker 4: No, no, no. But I'm just pointing out that there's a tangled web there. Like Taylor's friends with lots of people who've dated lots of people who she's dated.
00:30:10
Speaker 3: It's true.
00:30:11
Speaker 2: I'd forgotten that Zoe and, oh, that's a really good point. So Joe Jonas, who Taylor Swift used to date, was with Sophie Turner. They have children together. And then Sophie and Joe Jonas broke up. And then Sophie famously stayed in her Manhattan apartment with her kids and after their breakup.
00:30:29
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:30:29
Speaker 2: So it's clearly about Jo. She's not doing a very good job of hiding that. And she also is on the record as saying that he broke up with her over like a 20-second phone call when she was 18.
00:30:41
Speaker 3: Well, at least it was a phone call, I'd argue. That's true.
00:30:45
Speaker 1: We've come a long way.
00:30:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've come a long way.
00:30:46
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a Jo Jonas apologist because that Sophie Turner divorce, as much as we actually know what went on, did not cover him in glory, right? But Taylor Swift was 18 when she dated him. How old is Taylor Swift now?
00:30:59
Speaker 2: She's around my age, 36.
00:31:00
Speaker 3: She was born in 1989.
00:31:02
Speaker 1: Of course. So I'll do the maths. So that's nearly 20 years ago she dated this guy. Are we calling an ex from 20 years ago for a character assessment of our boyfriend?
00:31:11
Speaker 3: That's fair.
00:31:12
Speaker 2: But okay, the woman can't win because she talks about being happily married. She sings about being happily married and everyone's like, boring. And then she sings about her exes from 20 years ago and everyone's like, boring. And it's like, what else has she got?
00:31:23
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. Let's get to that because I think, you know how everyone says there's no, you have to have conflict, you have to have drama in any art, right? And the thing is, is Swift is very happy, as we know, but she needs conflict and drama. So the song about Travis, which is called Cleveland exclamation mark. I don't know about that. Swift, you'll have to tell me.
00:31:42
Speaker 2: You hate exclamation marks.
00:31:43
Speaker 1: I really have a problem with them. It's all about how happy they are, but how everybody thinks that they shouldn't be. Basically, that people in the comments section slag her off. Some of the lyrics are, The taste of me is acquired, but it's his favourite dish. I don't want to think about that too much. He says I look like an angel. They say I hate that. Bitch. I think we're meant to think there. He must not have read that scathing take about how I'm fake and he could find someone younger. I can see what they mean. But he already took me to Cleveland and now I'm wearing white.
00:32:12
Speaker 3: Okay, here's the thing.
00:32:14
Speaker 4: If that take is on the internet, it's in a horrible fetid corner of the internet that no one should be reading.
00:32:19
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone who looks.
00:32:21
Speaker 4: At Taylor Swift or one of the most successful people of all time. Yes.
00:32:27
Speaker 3: And thinks, yeah, Travis could have done better.
00:32:30
Speaker 6: 100%.
00:32:30
Speaker 3: No, I don't think even Travis thinks that.
00:32:33
Speaker 1: Of course he doesn't. He knows that he scored like in every way possible. So interestingly from an artist's position.
00:32:41
Speaker 4: Nice pun.
00:32:45
Speaker 1: Why does she need to go looking for the hate to make the song exciting?
00:32:51
Speaker 2: It's very Shake It Off. That whole song is almost to the same framework as what Shake It Off was. This is what the haters are saying, but I'm actually really happy. And I think she's been with Travis for three-ish years, right? It's not very long. So she's still in that honeymoon period. And the marriage, I think, by all accounts, is going really, really well. And I disagree.
00:33:14
Speaker 3: By all accounts, the marriage is going well.
00:33:17
Speaker 4: Oh, good.
00:33:17
Speaker 2: From what I've heard, it's going really well. And I disagree that marriage is boring. I think marriage is the most interesting thing.
00:33:25
Speaker 4: Tolstoy would agree with you, but Taylor doesn't seem to want to share with us these nuances.
00:33:30
Speaker 1: Exactly.
00:33:31
Speaker 2: This is my point, is that marriage is only boring when we pretend it's going well. With marriage, you've got to talk about the complexities and the issues and the nuances, but she can't really do that because they're both too high profile. Also, they've only been married for literally five minutes. Yes, and they don't have money to complain about. So I just feel as though maybe they need a little bit bit more time together, they can start pissing each other off, really like, you know, domestic tension.
00:33:59
Speaker 3: I agree with that.
00:34:00
Speaker 4: I mean, but I think to be fair to Taylor here, I wonder if she's trying to protect the marriage. Yes. And I totally understand that. She says this, and look, she didn't release a wedding photo because clearly she's trying to draw a line between with her parasocial fan base and saying to them, this is actually for me, it's not for you. And that's why she didn't release the wedding photo. But it still doesn't explain the obsession with internet haters, I have to say. Because even if you do want to protect the relationship, why is then the default complaining about some awful troll on the internet saying something which is clearly untrue?
00:34:38
Speaker 2: She's on the record as well as saying that she's not online.
00:34:42
Speaker 1: It's not true.
00:34:42
Speaker 3: She's so online. She had a Tumblr back in the day.
00:34:46
Speaker 2: She's my generation. We are too online. Like, there's no one who's just... I think Taylor probably needs to put her phone down.
00:34:53
Speaker 3: Holly, why do you think she's doing this?
00:34:55
Speaker 1: Mate, I genuinely have no idea. If I was Taylor Swift, the last thing I would ever be doing is wondering whether there was someone in the corner of the internet saying that my husband could do better because she is the queen of the world. And as you've already said, it's not true.
00:35:07
Speaker 3: You haven't seen brinkcoulddobetter.com.
00:35:08
Speaker 2: So funny.
00:35:10
Speaker 1: I want to ask you one more thing, though, about this, which is about wife core, as I'm calling it, right?
00:35:16
Speaker 3: I love this term.
00:35:16
Speaker 1: Because one of the things that is irritating people, and I'm not going to say it's irritating me because I don't want to... Big fan of all of the Swiftiness, except... Did you see the video the other day that she's at his football game in Miami? Again, she looks like a goddess. The woman looks like a goddess at all times, even at football games. You should see me at a football game. I've got a pie in one hand.
00:35:41
Speaker 3: I've got a mid-strength.
00:35:43
Speaker 1: Beer in the other, a bad beanie on. Anyway, the woman is a goddess. Travis scores a touchdown, which I believe is a try. Is that correct?
00:35:51
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:35:53
Speaker 1: And she goes nuts, as you would. You would definitely. And she points to the wedding finger and she screams. that's my husband.
00:36:04
Speaker 3: She's so American.
00:36:05
Speaker 1: And the internet.
00:36:06
Speaker 4: Excuse me, Jessie, I have never done that in your presence.
00:36:10
Speaker 3: Screamed, that's my husband.
00:36:12
Speaker 2: Every time your husband does a doctor thing, he shows someone up. There's Amelia's face at the door going, that's my husband.
00:36:20
Speaker 1: Adorably, the internet loves this. I'm going to play you a little grab of the Kelsey brothers. So Travis and Jason are talking about how this particular moment, that that's my husband, has been picked up by the internet and travels. So what you're about to hear is from the new How It's podcast, which is Travis's podcast with his brother, Jason. At the beginning, Jason is saying that since that moment went viral, that that's my husband, lots of memes have circulated of ordinary women who are not married to superstar football players saying what that meme reminds them of, things that their ordinary-ass husbands do that make them want to point at their rings and scream, that's my husband. And here's a couple of them.
00:36:57
Speaker 3: Internet is also running wild with Taylor's touchdown celebration. This is a meme I can get behind.
00:37:02
Speaker 5: Me after failing to parallel park in the same spot 10 times and he gets out to do it himself.
00:37:11
Speaker 3: That's too good. Me when my husband actually finds all the right stuff at the grocery store without calling me nice.
00:37:17
Speaker 2: Internet's having a good old time with this shit.
00:37:19
Speaker 1: These are awesome. My neurosurgeon breadwinner wife watching.
00:37:23
Speaker 2: Me shotgun my 11th beer of the night. Let's go, man. Listen, man, proud wife, baby.
00:37:30
Speaker 4: That's right.
00:37:30
Speaker 2: Gotta make my girl proud. These people love the internet and the internet makes everyone boring. They're on the internet too much and they need to unplug. Someone needs to put parental controls on Travis and Taylor's internet at home and be like, you're both amazing. You need to go and you go play your piano, you go throw a ball or something and just less getting on the internet.
00:37:50
Speaker 1: This is why I've caught to me.
00:37:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.
00:37:52
Speaker 1: This is very like, so is the line in there about like, you know, you were saying that but now I'm wearing white. It's very like... I have arrived. I have been picked. And something about it makes me itchy. Is it my famous distaste of the wedding?
00:38:10
Speaker 3: Or is it your lack of being picked, do you think? Unclear. Wifecore is everywhere right now. It's having a moment.
00:38:18
Speaker 4: Did you see Margot Robbie is coming up on 10 years of marriage to Tom Ackerley. They seem like the loveliest couple, very private. But News broke last week that Margot has changed her name on the paperwork surrounding their production company together.
00:38:34
Speaker 3: And her name is now Margot Ackerley.
00:38:38
Speaker 2: Do you reckon that's because they've had a baby? Like I wonder if they all want to have the same last name.
00:38:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe.
00:38:44
Speaker 1: Because her baby.
00:38:45
Speaker 4: Babies find it very confusing to deal with two last names. And they say, you've got to simplify things for me.
00:38:51
Speaker 3: Exactly. Or I will spit up on your white shirt.
00:38:54
Speaker 2: My kids don't have my last name. But I think that, you know.
00:38:57
Speaker 3: Are they doing okay?
00:38:58
Speaker 2: Um, they are, but what's good for me is that like, if they cross.
00:39:02
Speaker 1: A line, they're not mine. That's what I was saying.
00:39:04
Speaker 2: Like legally they're not.
00:39:06
Speaker 1: These children, like.
00:39:07
Speaker 3: These children of yours.
00:39:08
Speaker 2: Go to an airport and I'm like, I don't know who these three kids belong to.
00:39:12
Speaker 1: You know what I think's happened there is one of my friends who didn't change her name when she got married, but she said, I'm never ruling it out because I want to keep it up my sleeve. Like I want to keep it up my sleeve.
00:39:21
Speaker 4: Oh.
00:39:21
Speaker 1: To play if I'm stuffed up somehow or if I really want something.
00:39:26
Speaker 2: If I need to change my identity.
00:39:27
Speaker 1: Yeah she's like I can I want to pull out that at any minute you know what babe I've decided to change my name to yours and how happy that would make the person.
00:39:35
Speaker 2: Yeah but think of the paperwork just love being married and I think that's okay it's like I can see that with Taylor. She's always thought about marriage. She loves being married. She loves being able to say the word husband.
00:39:49
Speaker 1: She was with, what's his name, for six years.
00:39:50
Speaker 3: That's my spouse doesn't have the same ring.
00:39:53
Speaker 1: No, no.
00:39:54
Speaker 4: That's my de facto partner and we file tax returns together.
00:39:58
Speaker 3: It just doesn't work.
00:39:59
Speaker 6: That's my legal partner. That's my baby daddy. That's my elderly boyfriend.
00:40:12
Speaker 3: Frank could do better.
00:40:15
Speaker 1: That is all we have time for today, Outlouders. We will be back in your ears, of course, tomorrow. I think tomorrow MV and I are bringing you a rundown from the VMAs. I'm excited. Jessie's quite happy to not be part of it.
00:40:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm kind of.
00:40:28
Speaker 2: Half listening to it. There's a lot of songs I don't really know. I think Taylor's going to do something maybe. There'll be an interesting break.
00:40:33
Speaker 1: So for subscribers, that will be in your ears tomorrow. For everyone else, we'll be back in your ears on Wednesday. Thank you to our amazing team. We'll see you then. Bye.
00:40:41
Speaker 4: Bye. Bye.
00:40:42
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the 28th of September. I'm Holly Wainwright.
00:00:10
Speaker 2: I'm Jessie Stephens.
00:00:11
Speaker 3: And I'm Amelia Lester.
00:00:13
Speaker 1: And here's what made our agenda for today.
00:00:16
Speaker 2: 814 hours, parents and an impossible equation. And to add to that, why we have an unusual visitor in our office today.
00:00:27
Speaker 1: That's my fault. When do we stop talking about ancient exes? Welcome to Taylor Swift's new music and a very big day for T Swift.
00:00:38
Speaker 3: Plus, are we going to be paying friends back for coffee?
00:00:40
Speaker 4: There's a controversial piece of life advice we need to unpack.
00:00:44
Speaker 1: But first... Forgive me for my parenting sins, friends. It was uncovered on the weekend that I have missed a very important piece of education for my children. It was the AFL Grand Final. I don't know if you watched it. It was an amazing game. You would have watched it, didn't you, Amelia? You love AFL. How good was that game? But anyway, possibly better than the game itself was the pre-game performance by one Kylie Minogue. I was so excited. I was home alone. Well, I wasn't. I had my kids, but Brent wasn't there. And I was bouncing around and I was like, come watch Kylie with me. And my daughter was like, who is Kylie Minogue? She did not know who she was.
00:01:22
Speaker 2: Have you sat her down to watch the Netflix documentary?
00:01:25
Speaker 1: Clearly, this is what the school holiday schedule is going to be about.
00:01:27
Speaker 2: Just in time.
00:01:28
Speaker 1: Full immersion. But I posted about it and so many people said, same, same, same, same. And I was like, Generation X is failing here, passing on the importance of our cultural icons.
00:01:40
Speaker 2: Padam, padam. That won a Grammy Award like two years ago. I'm sorry, but that is on Matilda for being uncool.
00:01:47
Speaker 1: I agree. But you know what? The excellent show made me realise that Kylie's team were onto this because they dropped into that performance quite a lot of Gen Z and millennial reference points, right?
00:02:02
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
00:02:03
Speaker 1: Notably the Inspired Unemployed.
00:02:05
Speaker 2: I loved that. They were so good. And they teased on social.
00:02:09
Speaker 1: They were like.
00:02:10
Speaker 2: Locomotion. Is that what the song's called?
00:02:12
Speaker 1: Yes. Oh, dear.
00:02:14
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:02:14
Speaker 2: That's not my Kylie reference.
00:02:16
Speaker 1: And she calls them out. And they are podcasters, comedians, massive TikTok people.
00:02:21
Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
00:02:22
Speaker 1: Who all the young ones would know. So they were on the stage.
00:02:24
Speaker 2: They were on the stage. They were a fantastic Easter egg. You could tell they were stoked and a little confused as to how they made it.
00:02:30
Speaker 6: G-flip?
00:02:31
Speaker 1: G-flip.
00:02:32
Speaker 2: Who is recently when absolutely, you know, has been an enormous musician for years and years. But Off Campus, which everyone watched this year, their song on Off Campus blew up and suddenly has this international appeal. And, of course, and we don't.
00:02:48
Speaker 3: Selling sunsets.
00:02:50
Speaker 2: You know, it's not about who you're with. But Chris Schell is, of course, the spouse of G Flip. There are photos every five minutes of them. It is just an iconic partnership.
00:03:00
Speaker 1: And then Dom Dollar, who, look, to be honest, I don't know about Dom Dollar because I'm not that cool. Okay. Huge producer DJ, right?
00:03:08
Speaker 2: Coachella, nominated for a Grammy.
00:03:10
Speaker 1: And Australian.
00:03:11
Speaker 2: And Australian. And not only Australian. All three have lived in Melbourne. So Kylie's Melbourne.
00:03:18
Speaker 1: Perfect.
00:03:19
Speaker 2: G Flip has been Melbourne. And Dom Dollar, I think, was born somewhere else but, like, grew up in Melbourne. And so they, like, they knew what... AFL was. And I just think last year it was Snoop. Then before that, I think it was Katy Perry and then Robbie Williams. There hasn't been an Aussie act in five years. And you can tell the look in their eyes when they're like, I don't know what they're about to do with that ball, but I've been paid a lot of money.
00:03:44
Speaker 4: I also just love what struck me about it. I mean, I just thought it was a tremendous 20 minutes, but what struck me about it is she is such a generous person. collaborator and performer with others. She works so well with others. So in addition to the three artists you've mentioned, there was also William Barton. And he played the guitar during Confide in Me. And Kylie was wearing what looked to be a gold foil drysabone, which I loved because Melbourne tends.
00:04:12
Speaker 1: To drizzle a little bit. And it was indeed drizzling.
00:04:15
Speaker 4: And the two of them together were just so electric. And just the way that she brought in each of these performers and really shared the stage with them.
00:04:25
Speaker 3: They weren't just cameos.
00:04:27
Speaker 1: Why did I feel emotional during that Kylie set, apart from the fact that I realised I had really ruined my daughter's childhood by not introducing her to Kylie.
00:04:34
Speaker 3: Because Kylie is everything.
00:04:35
Speaker 4: I mean, G Flip said this week they have a tattoo on their arm that reads, Kylie thinks I'm cute. Like Kylie's appeal transcends generations, whether or not those generations know of her. Once they do know of her, they love her.
00:04:49
Speaker 2: And she's 58 and at the top of her game. Like this is not her looking back at her career. Like she is in it in a way that feels, I think as well, you know, when you watch one documentary about someone and then you become like they're basically their biographer, that's me right now. It's like the fact I saw that documentary relatively recently meant something. I felt I knew all the law.
00:05:09
Speaker 3: Are you writing Ray Gunn's biography?
00:05:11
Speaker 4: Is that the moment that you're announcing here?
00:05:13
Speaker 2: I was like, where's Nick Cave, her best friend?
00:05:16
Speaker 6: I know.
00:05:17
Speaker 1: When she did start doing La La La, which is burnt into our heads because we performed that once for a live show, Jesus Christ. My daughter did go, oh, I know this one. I know this one. It was a flawless performance.
00:05:31
Speaker 3: Flawless performance.
00:05:32
Speaker 2: An address at the National Press Club last week by CEO of the Parenthood, Georgie Dent, has since gone viral. The Parenthood is an Australian advocacy organisation. It represents parents, carers and family. It's not for profit. And it basically, it has a whole lot of legislation ideas. It's had some success in the past. Georgie has been photographed with Albanese. They are working on making childcare more affordable and extending paid parental leave. I'd like it on the record. The Georgie Dent, former Mamma Mia.
00:06:04
Speaker 4: I know.
00:06:04
Speaker 2: We taught her everything she knew.
00:06:06
Speaker 1: Far out. Well, we did specifically, Jessie, yes. She is an all-round excellent person. We're obsessed with Georgie. Look, we didn't teach her anything, but she's gone on to do it. I'm sure we taught her something, like where the toilets were and how to get the Barry's tea, probably that kind of stuff.
00:06:27
Speaker 2: Dent is a mother to three children and she spoke at the National Press Club about how having a family in Australia has become... unaffordable, how it puts enormous pressure on families, and it's ultimately contributing to the declining national birth rate, which our politicians keep yelling about. She has a bunch of solutions, and I implore everyone to go and listen to the speech. But there was one point she made during her address that struck a particular chord. Here's what she said.
00:06:55
Speaker 5: The school day runs roughly nine until three. The work day does not. Australian children get 12 weeks of school holidays. A full-time employee gets four weeks of annual leave. New ABC analysis found that two parents working full-time with primary school-aged children have to find an additional 814 hours of care a year to bridge that gap, even if they take.
00:07:22
Speaker 3: All their annual leave separately.
00:07:24
Speaker 2: 814 hours, that's 107 full-time days that parents are trying to scramble together while also trying to pay their bills with salaries that have not increased at the same rate as childcare costs. Holly, this was shared by just about every parent I know.
00:07:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, same.
00:07:42
Speaker 2: Why did it touch such a nerve, do you think?
00:07:45
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think a lot of what Georgie was saying in that speech about the parenthood campaigns, we all sort of know Every parent feels it, but she articulated it in such a clear and reasonable way and engaging way. And she's very good at that. People in the know tell me that she's always being approached to run for politics because she's so engaging and so good. So far, she isn't declining those offers, I believe. But I think she articulated in a very accessible, approachable way, something that every parent feels, but often just internalizes blame for, you know, Every parent I know when their kids hit school get this jolt of like, how does this work? And to be clear, Georgie Dent in this speech wasn't really suggesting that school hours should be extended or that holidays should be reduced or anything like that. She was more using this as sort of emblematic of how disconnected work and family are and how out of date a lot of the care and work hours are when they meet. school yes and the thing is is I was thinking because I those hours that even on vibes that amount of hours felt right to me and I'm sitting here now my kids are my oldest is finishing school next year so we've survived that pretty much although they're both here today so one teenager lolling in the kitchen belongs to me another one's turning up later can I just.
00:09:14
Speaker 2: Tell the out louders that I just saw. You know you see things that are like parenting goals. I was in the kitchen before and I saw your daughter on a beanbag reading a book made of paper. And I thought, Holly's paid Matilda so much money to do that in front of all her colleagues.
00:09:29
Speaker 1: I was like, this is called a book.
00:09:34
Speaker 2: She's holding it upside down and she doesn't know what.
00:09:36
Speaker 1: To do with it but she is holding it she's reading it for school but like so even now we're still struggling with their school holiday hours but i was thinking where did we find those 814 hours because they're hard to come by down the back of the couch whatever we did not have family around when the kids were smaller we found them we paid for some of them of course school holiday care was a big thing and that was really competitive to get into at my kids primary school because all the parents were working. And so... It was expensive and it was difficult to get into. So that was a mega stress. But lots of that, lots of like, today you'll be going, you know, to learn how to paint and blah, blah. And we were like, that sounds great.
00:10:11
Speaker 4: Go, go, go. Who cares?
00:10:13
Speaker 1: You bartered those hours with friends. You know, I'll have your kids on my day if you can have my kids on your day and that kind of thing. And we absolutely split holidays, which I love that Georgie referenced that. is that if you're in a couple and you're raising kids at this time, you will take your holiday separately. Now, what does that also do to family stress? I've got a lot of friends whose relationships did not make it through this period of parenting for a variety of reasons, but the level of stress that all this puts on families is definitely part of it. How are you getting through? Where are you finding these hours, Amelia?
00:10:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's not easy.
00:10:50
Speaker 4: I think my children are wandering around the bush in Sydney somewhere today, hopefully with a supervising adult. But you mentioned, Jessie, the idea of it hitting a nerve. And what I have to admit I was surprised by were the comments I saw on Mamma Mia's Instagram and on other articles talking about this. And they did not all echo what Holly just said at all. In fact... I would say a majority of the comments were critical of the idea that we need to come up with a new way of structuring schools. So I just want to give you a few examples. One person wrote, this might be controversial, but if you can't afford to give up your full-time job to have children and raise them yourself, then don't have them. That was a popular comment. Another, that was an extreme one, but there was this sentiment, and this was by the way, the top comment on the post. Does Georgie know schools are for education, not free childcare? Now, by the way, I'm sure Georgie knows, and I'm glad that you set us up, Holly, with the idea that Georgie Dent wasn't actually even prescribing specific policy solutions here. But I thought it was interesting that there's still seemingly what I took from that is that there is a big disconnect between people who are having to make this juggle right now as we speak today, this week, and people who are not. And I think that we're not doing a good job collectively of bridging that gap in understanding.
00:12:12
Speaker 1: It's such a good point, Amelia, that often, and I don't want to disparage the people making those comments because everybody has their own story, right? But often, once you've made it through that part of parenting, and I literally often say to Brent and my friends, I don't know how we did. I don't know how we got through it. Those Early years with both working full time, little kids, no family, all that stuff. I don't know how we did it. We were financially stressed. We were time stressed, but we did. Once you make it through that bit, it feels very ungenerous to me to turn around and kind of go, well, you just have to make it work. Everybody makes it work. rather than to recognise that progress might be better needed to make families less stressed. I really hope I don't become that person. If I start becoming that person, will you throw things at me?
00:12:54
Speaker 3: I will. I will.
00:12:55
Speaker 2: I'll make sure I complain about it a lot so that it's front of mind for you.
00:12:57
Speaker 1: Good, good, good.
00:12:58
Speaker 2: There was a really good line that Georgie had later on about basically that the time and children need to be looked after and someone has to absorb that. And disproportionately, women absorb that. And whether or not it's a choice that they work flexibly or that they lean out, the fact that she just basically went, and this is something I've been talking to so many of my friends about, is that this, I don't even know if feminism has anything to do with it, but this moment was meant to offer women more choices and I don't know if we do have more choices because if you need to go to work in order to pay for your, family's livelihood and you need to go back to work sooner than you would like, then that's not really a choice. If you need to stay at home because your salary won't cover childcare costs, that's not really a choice. And so you've got the economic realities. You also have the social expectations, which are that the man goes back to work full time, which is socially what is expected, what is expected from workplaces. It is harder to reinvent that. I know that a lot of heterosexual couples are trying to, but this is why I think that marriages suffer because there are these moments of just like, how do we solve this impossible problem? And it disproportionately lands in Yeah.
00:14:25
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's all true. And it's also I love your point, Amelia, about whether or not how you feel about this and whether or not you're going to throw out that well-worn line of like, if you can't afford to have kids, don't have kids. And then you wonder why that why we're in a cost of living crisis and everything getting more expensive, the birth rates falling. It's like, OK, someone do the maths. One of the things I love about what Georgie always says, though, is she really hammers how important fathers are in this conversation. This isn't just a conversation for women. And the stats that are around modern Australian families now show that it's true, no question, that women are still disproportionately taking leave from work and working fewer hours. But men's stats are changing. Those gaps are getting smaller and how important it is. to not just accept that that's the way it is. Because also women are increasingly more tertiary, more well-educated than men. The stats are showing that. So over time, the assumption that the man is always going to have the better paid job, it's just going to shift. It's just going to move. And so I think the idea of this being really flexible is really important. And I love that in the messaging that the parenthood does. They celebrate fathers a lot and I'm all for that. But I think It's inevitable that the question comes, well, what do you want to do about all this? And the parenthood have some very actionable things that they are asking for governments. And it's not about school hours, as we've said, but it is about paid parental leave. It is about changes to the way that childcare is funded. And it is about employers being more accepting of caring responsibilities. And she points to some companies who do it exceptionally well. Business owners are going to be screaming about that because they already have so many expectations on what they need to provide and times are tough in all directions. But I just think that constantly shrugging and going, that's the way it is. Is one of the things that's making families feel crazy.
00:16:17
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:16:17
Speaker 1: And I love that she calls that out.
00:16:19
Speaker 2: And I also think that that's the way it is and that's the way it's always been. I think that generationally there can be an attitude that's like, well, we did it, why can't you? But what she was pointing to was that, no, no, no, the structures are different now. It is more expensive and our salaries aren't going up at the same rate. Like there is more pressure in this moment than there has been historically and that's why we're finding it so hard.
00:16:44
Speaker 4: And it's also not just about people who currently have families. I think one sad aspect of where we're at is that children themselves are becoming a luxury good. So for people who don't yet have families, but who might want to have children in the future, they're looking at the maths and it's not adding up for them either.
00:17:03
Speaker 3: And that's really sad.
00:17:04
Speaker 4: The Parenthood actually did a study on how much it costs to raise a child these days. One child is sitting at $ 17, 800 a year. And two or more is costing $ 36, 500. So I can imagine if you're in your 20s or in your 30s and looking at those numbers and then looking at how much it costs to buy a house, I find it sad that people don't even have, as you say, Jessie, the choice anymore. They might feel they don't have the choice to have children. And that's a loss for all of.
00:17:34
Speaker 3: Us, I think.
00:17:36
Speaker 4: After the break, what is the dollar amount for which you should pay a friend back? Should you pay a friend back for a cup of coffee?
00:17:45
Speaker 2: Amelia, you buy one coffee for me.
00:17:49
Speaker 3: I'd be meaning to raise this with you, Jessie.
00:17:53
Speaker 4: So Johanna Cosgrove in The Guardian argues that you should not request repayment for anything under, wait.
00:18:00
Speaker 3: For it, dollar figure, $ 15. That is the figure she has determined.
00:18:04
Speaker 4: And her reasoning is $ 20 is.
00:18:06
Speaker 3: A crisp note. It's potentially a meal.
00:18:08
Speaker 4: $ 15, that.
00:18:10
Speaker 3: Feels about right as this sort of threshold.
00:18:13
Speaker 4: She says, if something is under $ 15 and you buy it for me, know that I will do the same for you next time. This is called trust and this is called reciprocity. Generosity, she writes, is an important skill. I thought that was interesting.
00:18:27
Speaker 3: It is a skill. It's not a trait.
00:18:29
Speaker 4: It's something that you need to maybe work on and develop and acquire. Holly, what do you think of this rule?
00:18:34
Speaker 1: I love it. Nailed the amount as far as I'm concerned.
00:18:37
Speaker 2: The vibe feels right.
00:18:38
Speaker 1: The vibe feels right. The tricky part to this is if $ 15 really is, you know, an amount that will affect your budget for the week, the month, the day, all those things, and it is for lots of people and maybe even more so after tomorrow when apparently happily we're getting another interest rate hike, then you don't accept coffees from other people. Do you know what I mean? If you're really watching your pennies... then that's why people often will be like, no, don't buy me one because I don't want to owe you. Because there's nothing worse than getting to... There's nothing worse in the anxiety of a budget than at any minute someone might call in a debt that you forgot you had, even if it's only a coffee. So people will often be like, don't... Oh.
00:19:24
Speaker 3: That's a great point.
00:19:25
Speaker 1: I don't want you to buy me a coffee. I don't want you to buy me a drink. I don't want you to shout, whatever it is, because I don't want to owe you money.
00:19:32
Speaker 4: Now, I.
00:19:33
Speaker 1: I'm not, as we've often discussed on this podcast, I am not particularly great with money and I will often just forget things like that. But there have been times in my life where there is no way I'm forgetting because those dollars and cents make a big difference. So I think it's interesting because I love what she writes about in this Cosgrove writes about in this where she says that there's a cultural thing here she was talking about how her parents are Dutch and they're obsessive about financial fairness. And she said, have you ever heard of the term going Dutch? And I was like, I am embarrassed to acknowledge that I'd never really considered the origins of that. And she was saying that, you know, some Northern European cultures, it's part of the culture to be like fastidiously meticulous about financial fairness, but that in a culture that is a generosity is seen as a as a flex and an important thing free and easy.
00:20:29
Speaker 2: But we're also so multicultural that you have friends who have come from very different having a very different relationship with with money and with reciprocity so um Like cultures all over the world, some see money as collective. So if they have it, it's just like you share it. Some have a very individualised nature of like, this is mine, don't touch it. And when those come into conflict, it can be very awkward. My issue is that I.
00:20:58
Speaker 1: remember.
00:20:59
Speaker 2: So if I've bought you a coffee or you've bought me a coffee, I will absolutely remember. And then I will always remember to pay you.
00:21:07
Speaker 1: Back, right?
00:21:08
Speaker 2: But sometimes when you're mates with someone who's just very forgetful. You never... Well, sort of like Holly, right?
00:21:16
Speaker 3: That's what you're saying.
00:21:17
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've forgotten to buy both of you a coffee back at various points.
00:21:20
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that if you're in the position where that isn't going to cost you, then it's fine. I do think the line is a meal. I quite like that. I think if you're going to go and buy someone a meal, that's a whole other thing. But if you can't, if the reciprocity thing makes you awkward, because for some people it's actually the receiving that's as awkward as the giving, like sitting with someone having bought you something can be really, really uncomfortable. Then you just have a coffee at home, right? Like you just, you invite people to your house so that you don't have that awkward back and forth.
00:21:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:21:49
Speaker 4: The cultural thing is really interesting because as out loud as we'll know, my partner is American. We moved here a couple of years ago and I remember we went to the pub with some new friends after we arrived and And the new friends, the dad in this couple was explaining to my partner about the notion of a shout and what it means to shout someone a drink.
00:22:16
Speaker 2: Everyone's a lot more limited with alcohol though.
00:22:18
Speaker 3: That's true.
00:22:19
Speaker 2: We're not having eight drinks anymore.
00:22:21
Speaker 3: Are we? That's true.
00:22:22
Speaker 4: And so Johnny thought that he should do the right thing culturally and so he bought this guy a drink, he shouted him a drink, and then our joke became we literally never saw them again.
00:22:32
Speaker 1: LAUGHTER They moved.
00:22:34
Speaker 3: And drinks are expensive these days.
00:22:36
Speaker 4: Which I don't know if the move was related to the fact that he just felt unable to buy Johnny a drink, but it's a bit annoying.
00:22:43
Speaker 1: It is interesting, right? Because I grew up in Britain, we call it around, and if you couldn't afford a round, you don't go to the pub. Do you know what I mean? That was the thing. It's like you don't just go to the... And I'm almost certain that this has shifted now. One of the reasons that you just said is that, A, if there's six of you, you're probably not having six drinks now. And B, alcohol is so much more expensive than it was. But culturally, the idea was you wouldn't dream of just going to the bar and buying yourself a drink and walking back to your table with that. That would be an anathema to pub culture. And I was thinking about that, because that's a shout here and around there, and how that now would bankrupt you in most ways. City pubs for sure and like regional pubs and everywhere. Like that would bankrupt you to be buying everybody a drink all the time.
00:23:31
Speaker 2: I reckon that cash made this easier because you could throw a $ 5 note at someone. And now it's so awkward and official and antisocial to be like, can you transfer me? And then everyone gets their phones out and does a tap and they look at it.
00:23:47
Speaker 3: It's the app thing.
00:23:48
Speaker 4: Have you used the app Splitwise? This is what is good on trips with friends. And you basically throw everything in, including the coffees. That's actually, I would argue, one instance where you can throw the coffees into the pot. Because if you're going away with friends, everyone just puts every single expense into Splitwise. But there is something slightly off how at the end of your weekend away, it's like, can you transfer me $ 31.
00:24:14
Speaker 2: 50?
00:24:14
Speaker 1: It feels annoying.
00:24:15
Speaker 3: I know.
00:24:16
Speaker 2: This is why. Wouldn't it just be lovely to have unlimited money and just be the person?
00:24:20
Speaker 4: Well, except Cosgrove has a bit of a controversial opinion on this. She says that it's never the people being paid the least who ask for the money back.
00:24:29
Speaker 3: She says that if you grow up rich.
00:24:31
Speaker 4: And therefore never want for anything, what you don't fundamentally understand is how a generous act can fulfill both the needs of the person who is being given the thing and the person who is doing the giving. She says if you've never wanted for anything, you don't get that fundamentally.
00:24:48
Speaker 2: Wow, that is such an interesting insight.
00:24:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, because she quotes, Robbie grew up really poor in a really big family and they never had any money. And now she's doing great. Plenty of money, right? And the interviewer from the New York Times is like, what's the biggest shock about hanging around with rich people when you grew up with nothing? And Robbie says how tight they all are. Like, you walk into a house in the neighborhood I grew up in and it would be expected that you could help yourself to anything. But you go into a fancy person's house and you're not allowed to touch the fridge. And I was like, yeah, there's a lot. more to generosity culturally than who's got more than somebody else.
00:25:27
Speaker 4: The most generous person I think I know, she grew up very poor and then became very rich. Now that is the ideal combination for creating a generous person. And I think the reason why she's so generous is because she knows what a big difference it made when she was less well off for other people to show her generosity. And now you can see the genuine joy and pleasure she gets from being able to spread her wealth around. So it's a really unique combination. Do we think that $ 15 is the right number? Because Holly, I think you had some.
00:26:03
Speaker 1: I was talking to my daughter about it because we were coming up together today because she's in the office, as discussed. And she obviously has a part-time job and her money is very precious to her. But I said, would you ask for less than $ 10 to be transferred if you bought your friend an iced coffee, of course, because that's what the kids all drink. And she said no, but she said, but anything over 15. It was the natural stopping point.
00:26:27
Speaker 2: See, I have a theory. I like the number 15, but I also think if it's a $ 14 sandwich, I.
00:26:34
Speaker 3: Think it's a meal.
00:26:35
Speaker 5: That feels different to a $ 9 overpriced coffee.
00:26:38
Speaker 1: You're so right.
00:26:39
Speaker 2: I think that food is the line.
00:26:41
Speaker 3: Food has got to be where you look after yourself.
00:26:44
Speaker 2: A small piece of cake, okay. But a sandwich, that's a whole meal.
00:26:50
Speaker 1: In a moment... It's Taylor Swift's big day. One of Taylor Swift's many big days today is the VMAs. But everybody is talking about why there are a couple of things she can't seem to let go of in her new music, We Unpack. As we're recording this today, Taylor Swift is running the VMAs. She is wearing the most beautiful of gowns.
00:27:13
Speaker 2: I usually have no opinions, but I looked at it. I thought, that's a lovely gown. You look very nice, Taylor.
00:27:17
Speaker 3: Elegant, classy, classy, very classy.
00:27:20
Speaker 1: She looks amazing. She's getting a big deal award today. She's getting the inaugural artist director honours, recognising her contribution to the art of the music video, among others, no doubt. And she's definitely not listening to or reading any of the frankly pretty terrible reviews of the music that she dropped at the weekend.
00:27:38
Speaker 2: See, I would argue, having now read the lyrics... to the music she dropped that she is absolutely reading the terrible reviews.
00:27:44
Speaker 1: What are the things I want to get to, right? So in case you've missed it, it's always a big cultural deal when Taylor Swift drops new music, of course. It feels like something that happens pretty regularly now. Last week she dropped four new songs and it wasn't a new album or a new single. They are an addendum. to her album Life of a Showgirl. There are like four songs that make up an EP that kind of is part of the Showgirl thing. She said the Showgirl album was such a big success that she flew to Sweden to celebrate with Max Martin and they couldn't, the producer, and they couldn't help themselves. They had to throw down these new songs.
00:28:17
Speaker 4: That's like when we go out to dinner, we just can't help but record a podcast.
00:28:22
Speaker 1: And we're like, the people need.
00:28:23
Speaker 3: To hear it.
00:28:26
Speaker 1: It's pretty standard now, by the way, that when the most successful pop musician in the world drops music, it will be sneered at. Like she gets, she always gets sneers, right? Ever since sort of folklore, I feel like a lot of sneers have come her way for basically for having the audacity to not go away and have a lie down. But I do want to pick something up that's interesting about the content of these particular songs. And it's to do with what you're saying, Jessie. It's like she is at the pinnacle of everything. She is apparently happier than she's ever been. She's met the love of her life. I'll get to those lyrics in a minute. But she's still writing about shitty exes and internet haters. So for a start, Patient Zero is the sort of lead single of this. The lyrics go, if you want to party, I don't know why we want to party because... I don't want to party.
00:29:14
Speaker 2: That's an assumption that just does not sit.
00:29:17
Speaker 1: Well with us. But if you want to party with somebody who might know about the devil on his shoulder underneath his halo, she's talking about an ex. If you're sick of him, I got you. I was patient. Zero, the song goes. I've got to be honest. I've been expecting your call. No, it's not a bad time at all. I heard somebody saying there's trouble in paradise and my lips are sealed right now. So the thing is, the whole story, of this song is somebody who's been out with one of Taylor's people is calling her to be like, was he always this much of a dick? And Taylor's unloading.
00:29:48
Speaker 2: So it's clearly about Joe Jonas.
00:29:51
Speaker 4: Well, it's clearly not about Zoe Kravitz, her very good friend, calling about Harry Styles.
00:29:56
Speaker 3: Because there's no trouble in that paradise.
00:29:58
Speaker 1: No, there's not.
00:30:00
Speaker 2: Wait, there definitely is in trouble. Are you being sarcastic?
00:30:02
Speaker 4: No, no, no. But I'm just pointing out that there's a tangled web there. Like Taylor's friends with lots of people who've dated lots of people who she's dated.
00:30:10
Speaker 3: It's true.
00:30:11
Speaker 2: I'd forgotten that Zoe and, oh, that's a really good point. So Joe Jonas, who Taylor Swift used to date, was with Sophie Turner. They have children together. And then Sophie and Joe Jonas broke up. And then Sophie famously stayed in her Manhattan apartment with her kids and after their breakup.
00:30:29
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:30:29
Speaker 2: So it's clearly about Jo. She's not doing a very good job of hiding that. And she also is on the record as saying that he broke up with her over like a 20-second phone call when she was 18.
00:30:41
Speaker 3: Well, at least it was a phone call, I'd argue. That's true.
00:30:45
Speaker 1: We've come a long way.
00:30:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've come a long way.
00:30:46
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a Jo Jonas apologist because that Sophie Turner divorce, as much as we actually know what went on, did not cover him in glory, right? But Taylor Swift was 18 when she dated him. How old is Taylor Swift now?
00:30:59
Speaker 2: She's around my age, 36.
00:31:00
Speaker 3: She was born in 1989.
00:31:02
Speaker 1: Of course. So I'll do the maths. So that's nearly 20 years ago she dated this guy. Are we calling an ex from 20 years ago for a character assessment of our boyfriend?
00:31:11
Speaker 3: That's fair.
00:31:12
Speaker 2: But okay, the woman can't win because she talks about being happily married. She sings about being happily married and everyone's like, boring. And then she sings about her exes from 20 years ago and everyone's like, boring. And it's like, what else has she got?
00:31:23
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. Let's get to that because I think, you know how everyone says there's no, you have to have conflict, you have to have drama in any art, right? And the thing is, is Swift is very happy, as we know, but she needs conflict and drama. So the song about Travis, which is called Cleveland exclamation mark. I don't know about that. Swift, you'll have to tell me.
00:31:42
Speaker 2: You hate exclamation marks.
00:31:43
Speaker 1: I really have a problem with them. It's all about how happy they are, but how everybody thinks that they shouldn't be. Basically, that people in the comments section slag her off. Some of the lyrics are, The taste of me is acquired, but it's his favourite dish. I don't want to think about that too much. He says I look like an angel. They say I hate that. Bitch. I think we're meant to think there. He must not have read that scathing take about how I'm fake and he could find someone younger. I can see what they mean. But he already took me to Cleveland and now I'm wearing white.
00:32:12
Speaker 3: Okay, here's the thing.
00:32:14
Speaker 4: If that take is on the internet, it's in a horrible fetid corner of the internet that no one should be reading.
00:32:19
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone who looks.
00:32:21
Speaker 4: At Taylor Swift or one of the most successful people of all time. Yes.
00:32:27
Speaker 3: And thinks, yeah, Travis could have done better.
00:32:30
Speaker 6: 100%.
00:32:30
Speaker 3: No, I don't think even Travis thinks that.
00:32:33
Speaker 1: Of course he doesn't. He knows that he scored like in every way possible. So interestingly from an artist's position.
00:32:41
Speaker 4: Nice pun.
00:32:45
Speaker 1: Why does she need to go looking for the hate to make the song exciting?
00:32:51
Speaker 2: It's very Shake It Off. That whole song is almost to the same framework as what Shake It Off was. This is what the haters are saying, but I'm actually really happy. And I think she's been with Travis for three-ish years, right? It's not very long. So she's still in that honeymoon period. And the marriage, I think, by all accounts, is going really, really well. And I disagree.
00:33:14
Speaker 3: By all accounts, the marriage is going well.
00:33:17
Speaker 4: Oh, good.
00:33:17
Speaker 2: From what I've heard, it's going really well. And I disagree that marriage is boring. I think marriage is the most interesting thing.
00:33:25
Speaker 4: Tolstoy would agree with you, but Taylor doesn't seem to want to share with us these nuances.
00:33:30
Speaker 1: Exactly.
00:33:31
Speaker 2: This is my point, is that marriage is only boring when we pretend it's going well. With marriage, you've got to talk about the complexities and the issues and the nuances, but she can't really do that because they're both too high profile. Also, they've only been married for literally five minutes. Yes, and they don't have money to complain about. So I just feel as though maybe they need a little bit bit more time together, they can start pissing each other off, really like, you know, domestic tension.
00:33:59
Speaker 3: I agree with that.
00:34:00
Speaker 4: I mean, but I think to be fair to Taylor here, I wonder if she's trying to protect the marriage. Yes. And I totally understand that. She says this, and look, she didn't release a wedding photo because clearly she's trying to draw a line between with her parasocial fan base and saying to them, this is actually for me, it's not for you. And that's why she didn't release the wedding photo. But it still doesn't explain the obsession with internet haters, I have to say. Because even if you do want to protect the relationship, why is then the default complaining about some awful troll on the internet saying something which is clearly untrue?
00:34:38
Speaker 2: She's on the record as well as saying that she's not online.
00:34:42
Speaker 1: It's not true.
00:34:42
Speaker 3: She's so online. She had a Tumblr back in the day.
00:34:46
Speaker 2: She's my generation. We are too online. Like, there's no one who's just... I think Taylor probably needs to put her phone down.
00:34:53
Speaker 3: Holly, why do you think she's doing this?
00:34:55
Speaker 1: Mate, I genuinely have no idea. If I was Taylor Swift, the last thing I would ever be doing is wondering whether there was someone in the corner of the internet saying that my husband could do better because she is the queen of the world. And as you've already said, it's not true.
00:35:07
Speaker 3: You haven't seen brinkcoulddobetter.com.
00:35:08
Speaker 2: So funny.
00:35:10
Speaker 1: I want to ask you one more thing, though, about this, which is about wife core, as I'm calling it, right?
00:35:16
Speaker 3: I love this term.
00:35:16
Speaker 1: Because one of the things that is irritating people, and I'm not going to say it's irritating me because I don't want to... Big fan of all of the Swiftiness, except... Did you see the video the other day that she's at his football game in Miami? Again, she looks like a goddess. The woman looks like a goddess at all times, even at football games. You should see me at a football game. I've got a pie in one hand.
00:35:41
Speaker 3: I've got a mid-strength.
00:35:43
Speaker 1: Beer in the other, a bad beanie on. Anyway, the woman is a goddess. Travis scores a touchdown, which I believe is a try. Is that correct?
00:35:51
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:35:53
Speaker 1: And she goes nuts, as you would. You would definitely. And she points to the wedding finger and she screams. that's my husband.
00:36:04
Speaker 3: She's so American.
00:36:05
Speaker 1: And the internet.
00:36:06
Speaker 4: Excuse me, Jessie, I have never done that in your presence.
00:36:10
Speaker 3: Screamed, that's my husband.
00:36:12
Speaker 2: Every time your husband does a doctor thing, he shows someone up. There's Amelia's face at the door going, that's my husband.
00:36:20
Speaker 1: Adorably, the internet loves this. I'm going to play you a little grab of the Kelsey brothers. So Travis and Jason are talking about how this particular moment, that that's my husband, has been picked up by the internet and travels. So what you're about to hear is from the new How It's podcast, which is Travis's podcast with his brother, Jason. At the beginning, Jason is saying that since that moment went viral, that that's my husband, lots of memes have circulated of ordinary women who are not married to superstar football players saying what that meme reminds them of, things that their ordinary-ass husbands do that make them want to point at their rings and scream, that's my husband. And here's a couple of them.
00:36:57
Speaker 3: Internet is also running wild with Taylor's touchdown celebration. This is a meme I can get behind.
00:37:02
Speaker 5: Me after failing to parallel park in the same spot 10 times and he gets out to do it himself.
00:37:11
Speaker 3: That's too good. Me when my husband actually finds all the right stuff at the grocery store without calling me nice.
00:37:17
Speaker 2: Internet's having a good old time with this shit.
00:37:19
Speaker 1: These are awesome. My neurosurgeon breadwinner wife watching.
00:37:23
Speaker 2: Me shotgun my 11th beer of the night. Let's go, man. Listen, man, proud wife, baby.
00:37:30
Speaker 4: That's right.
00:37:30
Speaker 2: Gotta make my girl proud. These people love the internet and the internet makes everyone boring. They're on the internet too much and they need to unplug. Someone needs to put parental controls on Travis and Taylor's internet at home and be like, you're both amazing. You need to go and you go play your piano, you go throw a ball or something and just less getting on the internet.
00:37:50
Speaker 1: This is why I've caught to me.
00:37:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.
00:37:52
Speaker 1: This is very like, so is the line in there about like, you know, you were saying that but now I'm wearing white. It's very like... I have arrived. I have been picked. And something about it makes me itchy. Is it my famous distaste of the wedding?
00:38:10
Speaker 3: Or is it your lack of being picked, do you think? Unclear. Wifecore is everywhere right now. It's having a moment.
00:38:18
Speaker 4: Did you see Margot Robbie is coming up on 10 years of marriage to Tom Ackerley. They seem like the loveliest couple, very private. But News broke last week that Margot has changed her name on the paperwork surrounding their production company together.
00:38:34
Speaker 3: And her name is now Margot Ackerley.
00:38:38
Speaker 2: Do you reckon that's because they've had a baby? Like I wonder if they all want to have the same last name.
00:38:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe.
00:38:44
Speaker 1: Because her baby.
00:38:45
Speaker 4: Babies find it very confusing to deal with two last names. And they say, you've got to simplify things for me.
00:38:51
Speaker 3: Exactly. Or I will spit up on your white shirt.
00:38:54
Speaker 2: My kids don't have my last name. But I think that, you know.
00:38:57
Speaker 3: Are they doing okay?
00:38:58
Speaker 2: Um, they are, but what's good for me is that like, if they cross.
00:39:02
Speaker 1: A line, they're not mine. That's what I was saying.
00:39:04
Speaker 2: Like legally they're not.
00:39:06
Speaker 1: These children, like.
00:39:07
Speaker 3: These children of yours.
00:39:08
Speaker 2: Go to an airport and I'm like, I don't know who these three kids belong to.
00:39:12
Speaker 1: You know what I think's happened there is one of my friends who didn't change her name when she got married, but she said, I'm never ruling it out because I want to keep it up my sleeve. Like I want to keep it up my sleeve.
00:39:21
Speaker 4: Oh.
00:39:21
Speaker 1: To play if I'm stuffed up somehow or if I really want something.
00:39:26
Speaker 2: If I need to change my identity.
00:39:27
Speaker 1: Yeah she's like I can I want to pull out that at any minute you know what babe I've decided to change my name to yours and how happy that would make the person.
00:39:35
Speaker 2: Yeah but think of the paperwork just love being married and I think that's okay it's like I can see that with Taylor. She's always thought about marriage. She loves being married. She loves being able to say the word husband.
00:39:49
Speaker 1: She was with, what's his name, for six years.
00:39:50
Speaker 3: That's my spouse doesn't have the same ring.
00:39:53
Speaker 1: No, no.
00:39:54
Speaker 4: That's my de facto partner and we file tax returns together.
00:39:58
Speaker 3: It just doesn't work.
00:39:59
Speaker 6: That's my legal partner. That's my baby daddy. That's my elderly boyfriend.
00:40:12
Speaker 3: Frank could do better.
00:40:15
Speaker 1: That is all we have time for today, Outlouders. We will be back in your ears, of course, tomorrow. I think tomorrow MV and I are bringing you a rundown from the VMAs. I'm excited. Jessie's quite happy to not be part of it.
00:40:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm kind of.
00:40:28
Speaker 2: Half listening to it. There's a lot of songs I don't really know. I think Taylor's going to do something maybe. There'll be an interesting break.
00:40:33
Speaker 1: So for subscribers, that will be in your ears tomorrow. For everyone else, we'll be back in your ears on Wednesday. Thank you to our amazing team. We'll see you then. Bye.
00:40:41
Speaker 4: Bye. Bye.
00:40:42
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.
