Julia Bodwell: Hey reader, welcome back to another episode. I'm your host Julia Bonwell and joining me today is New York Times bestselling author Madeline Martin. Madeline, thank you so much for being here.
Madeline Martin: thank you so much for inviting me. I've been looking forward to it.
Julia Bodwell: Yes, it's always great seeing you, even if it's through a screen and getting a chat with you. so so excited because I know A Time of Witches is is coming out soon, September first. and I was just getting excited because the cover and those edges, my gosh, and the blurb on the back, the two women bound by blood and betrayal. There it is, show those edges off. my gosh, it's gorgeous. I'm so excited
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: to read this book. So excited to chat with you about it. So can you tell us a little bit about the book?
Madeline Martin: Yeah, so it's a dual timeline that starts off in Savannah, Georgia with a woman who's having a recurring nightmare that she's being burned alive with the stake. And this basically leads her to I
Julia Bodwell: Which how horrific.
Madeline Martin: know, right? So this leads her to an abandoned manor in England where she discovers that her ancestor was burned as a witch in sixteen forty five. So the other part of the book takes place in sixteen forty five. with Sybil who is being accused of witchcraft and it's sh basically showing her going through this process of this accusation and the trials that she's having to endure. And basically the contemporary woman Lilith realizes that she needs to find a way to keep Sybil from being burned alive at the stake, or all will be lost. Dun dun dun.
Julia Bodwell: My gosh. I love that. So it's got like I mean not time travel obviously, but just that sort of connection, like if something like the ripple effect, right? Is that kind of what you were going for? Okay.
Madeline Martin: Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's like so there's like this like abandoned manor because I love abandoned manners and it's like the same day on repeat because it's trying to show Lilith something, about the past. And there's a little bit of a time slip in there, but it's certainly not like the what encompasses the full of the book.
Julia Bodwell: Okay, awesome. so I mean, how did you come up with this idea? Like where did this come to you from?
Madeline Martin: So believe it or not, when I was in high school, I kept having recurring dreams of being burned alive at the stake. Follow me for great sleep tips. I know, I know, it's horrible. so basically, well that's
Julia Bodwell: my gosh, that's awful. Do were you a witch in a past life?
Madeline Martin: what I'm thinking. I'm like, okay, because of course I'm like this like overly imaginative, incredibly dramatic teenager. And my first
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: thought was, of course, this was me in a past life, or maybe it was an ancestor. So I have actually had this idea sort of percolating in the back of my brain for over 25 years. So getting to write this story was honestly like the coolest thing ever.
Julia Bodwell: So twenty five years that it's just been stuck in your brain, why why now? Why not twenty five years ago? Like why not any earlier in career? Why why now?
Madeline Martin: Okay, people do not believe me when I bring this up, but I swear every time I would mention I've got this witch book idea, people were always like, witches don't sell. And so I'm like, okay. So then I'm like, I always read through Publishers Marketplace where it talks about books that are book new book deals that are coming out and everything. And I start seeing which, which, which, and I was like, I have an idea. And finally, yes.
Julia Bodwell: You're like, here we go. Now now's my turn.
Madeline Martin: Yes, exactly. So it's like I was just waiting for like the right moment to be able to finally write the story and here we are.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. And I mean, you've got the black cat behind you. For those that aren't aren't watching
Madeline Martin: I do.
Julia Bodwell: and are only listening, she's got her her black cat joining her. what's his name?
Madeline Martin: This is Gunner. he is the sweetest boy ever. He loves to jump up here. Like, he's like my little armchair cat. And
Julia Bodwell: I love it.
Madeline Martin: he just he keeps me company. He also is the guy who like he takes a nap with me every single day. He's just so sweet. And there is a black cat in A Time of Witches, and
Julia Bodwell: I love it.
Madeline Martin: he actually is inspired by his character is inspired by Gunner and his whole story.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: And I love black cat so much that I also begged my publisher to please make sure that they put the black cat on the cover. So there he is. if you can't
Julia Bodwell: Yes there's a little Easter egg.
Madeline Martin: yes, so so if you're not able to watch this and you're just listening, when you get your copy of A Time of Witches, make sure that you turn over to look at the back copy and on the bottom right hand corner of the cover on the back you'll see an adorable little black cat. Yes, exactly. Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: Yay. Inspired by Gunner. I love that. so I I feel like with this book and then even last year with Secret Book Society, there's been sort of like a noticeable shift, at least from my perspective. Because you you know, you typically would write a lot of like World War II and you know, wartime in England, and and we've sort of taken like a shift over these last two books. It's a little, a little darker. I love it. I mean, the last one, Victorian England, I I loved it. Is that something that it was sort of intentional or just sort of like you said, this this idea was was in your head for twenty five years and it's like time to strike now while witches are hot, but is that something that you kind of did on purpose intentionally to get away from sort of the World War Two and and the wartime era? Or will you return back to that?
Madeline Martin: I never know if I'm going to return to something or not. I mean I love history, so I can never even tell you what time in history I'm going to end up in next unless I'm actively working on that next book. but so for me it was actually intentional. So with World War II, so my my agent likes to have sort of like a an annual talk with all of us to give us a heads up as to what's going on in the marketplace. And the overall consensus is that unfortunately World War II books, the market was very glutted and There's been a lot of World War II reader fatigue, which every time I send this into a room, I see people nodding. So I'm like, okay, yes, exactly. And
Julia Bodwell: Yes. Everyone's nodding, yep. Yep.
Madeline Martin: of course there are still people out there who love World War II books, but there's also a a heavy amount of fatigue. And so we don't want to keep beating people's heads over, like, but you have to read this. because there are so many stories in history to tell. And it's funny because at the time, you know, my agent was like, Well, what seems like it's really selling. is books historical fiction set in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. to which I say rude because that does not feel like historical fiction to me. It is too soon. But
Julia Bodwell: That's too soon. That's that's not far enough away.
Madeline Martin: also like I am like I will go as deep in history as they will let me. And so I basically came up to them and I was like, I wrote this Victorian and that's where I had the Secret Book Society. And with that one, you know, I really just went back. I had written Regency Romance back when I was writing historical romance. And I'd always wanted to write a Victorian. And at the time, Victorian historical romances really weren't doing very well. So I didn't have my opportunity then. So I thought, you know what? I'm going to write about a secret society of women who get together and read books that they're not allowed to read. And it's going to be women building up other women. Yes,
Julia Bodwell: Which I love. It's the the rebellion.
Madeline Martin: it's women building up other women. It's rebellion through literature. It's it's women just empowering one another. And and I loved being able to really convey that message through that story. And and that book, it was something that I wrote with just so much passion. And so so yes, I definitely
Julia Bodwell: You could tell. I mean, the the the characters, the friendships, you know, like you said, the rebellion, that there was so much, you know, feminism and just so many strong themes and and just such a great story and and I loved, you know, l getting to live in that Victorian era for a minute. That's that's one of my favorite eras. So I like, Okay, is she is she deviating or like is this sort of a new path that you're forging? So
Madeline Martin: Yeah, this is and I and also, you know, I love the incorporation of magical realism into my stories. So there was one very, very, very small little like paranormal slash magical realism aspect to the secret book society with the seance. It was very, very small though. but I went all out with that with a time of witches. I really do though try to kind of delve I tried to delve into magic from a nature perspective. I didn't
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: want this to be overly fantastical. For me with a time of witches, I really wanted it to be the sense that like it could happen to you, it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody. And I wanted people to come away with this thinking to themselves, maybe I'm a witch, because maybe there is a little bit of witch in all of us. And so
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: I'm I'm I'm putting together my reader's guide now. But one of the things that the reader's guide is going to have, which will be available by the way on my website, just madelynmartin.com.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: it's going to have a little one of those little quizzes that we used to take in the 17 magazine, like, are you a witch?
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: and it's going to have a little thing where you can see how witchy you are, which is, you know, kind of a fun aspect of it. But but even like thinking about book ideas going forward and even my current book that I'm working on right now that that we'll talk about later, I know, I love this incorporation of magical realism because when I think back to when I fell in love with books and with stories, it was fairy tales, right? And fairy tales always feel like old history, but with like a magical twist. And so writing these books makes it feel like I'm writing sort of like, you know, adult fairy tales. And and it really
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: is just so much fun. It's like the sky is the limit.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. And it's a nice blend too, because you know, it it's not it doesn't feel like fantasy where it's so out there and outlandish that it couldn't happen. Like you said, it's the magical realism where you're sort of weaving that in to the historical piece. So it's like, you know, why why couldn't I have been a witch in in my former life, you know? Who's to s
Madeline Martin: Exactly.
Julia Bodwell: who's to say I couldn't have been, you know?
Madeline Martin: Yes, exactly.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. So I know you you were just recently in Europe researching for your upcoming release, which we'll talk about in a minute. So for for this one for a time of witches, did you go to Europe? Do you do any like I you like to immerse yourself. What was the research like for this one?
Madeline Martin: Yes, I did I had to go to England. I mean one does what one must for their craft. I know. I also went to Savannah. so it's you
Julia Bodwell: You're like no. Right. Okay.
Madeline Martin: know it's interesting because even though I've been to Savannah multiple times, I had never been for research. And when I visit
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: somewhere for research versus for vacation, they're two totally different brains that I bring into that. Obviously the vacation one is like, Wee, I'm having a great time, but the author is so much more sensory. It's thinking about, you know, what do the cobblestones feel like beneath my feet? What does the air smell like? What does it look like? What flowers are here in the squares? What are the trees? What are the trees that the moss is hanging from? What type of tree is it? You know,
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: it's it's recording all of these little details so that I can replicate them into the story. and I did get to go to Barry St. Edmunds, which is where and
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: the reason why I selected Barry St. Edmunds, England is because this is where they had the largest execution of people who were accused of witchcraft. And so
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Madeline Martin: on August 27th, 1645, there were 18 people who were hanged, 16 women and two men. And really the whole it was all instigated by Matthew Hopkins, who was he as he declared himself, the witchfinder general.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: and I have a little funny story about that in just one second, because I know that's not funny, but I swear there's a funny
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: story about it. But but going to Barrie St. Edmunds was so cool because they have all of these old buildings still in existence from the 1500s. The entire layout
Julia Bodwell: Just the just the craftsmanship like that those these buildings are still standing after all that time is incredible.
Madeline Martin: Yes, it's crazy. And it's it's the build of this stuff called waddle and daub, which is s sort of like this mud and stick, kind of concrete stuff. And so it it moves and flexes and so these buildings have these like crazy lanes to them. And you think, like, how does this building even stay up? But it's almost like built to withstand that, which is just crazy. and the whole city is still built in this grid like layout. So you can still see what it looked like, the streets, how they would have looked in the day of Sybil. and and even they have this amazing museum called Moise's Hall that's in a building that's from like eleven hundred. I mean it's just incredible. So getting to go there and experience it was really just such an awesome exp opportunity. And the tour guides there were just on point. In fact, it was funny because I took so many tours with the tour guides that they wrote about me in the local paper and it was like author takes record number of tours in Barry St. Edmunds.
Julia Bodwell: I love that.
Madeline Martin: and actually yes. Yes,
Julia Bodwell: Good. Th now people can go read the book after and, you know, kind of piece together like, I've been there.
Madeline Martin: exactly. And also my my UK edition of A Time of Witches comes out on October 8th. So they're actually having me come to Barrie St. Edmunds to do a chat at one of the churches. And
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Madeline Martin: the curator for Moisie's Hall is actually bringing one of the witch trial pamphlets for people to see as well. So so it's super cool that I get to go back and do that. Yes!
Julia Bodwell: That's incredible. If anybody wants to go to England, you know, in October to meet Madeline Martin and
Madeline Martin: Come on down. We'll go together. but so kind of the funny story about Matthew Hopkins. When I was going through and doing my edits, he did call himself the Witch Finder General. And when I was going through my edits, my editor highlighted that one particular piece and she said, This is a little cheesy. Do you think that we can come up with a different name? And I said, you know what, I I was like, I don't disagree with you. However,
Julia Bodwell: It's just like that's what he was called.
Madeline Martin: I said, This is what he called himself and it's historically accurate, so no, I can't change it.
Julia Bodwell: For accuracy, we need to leave it. Sorry. Sorry it's cheesy, but you can go back in time and tell him that.
Madeline Martin: Exactly. Yeah, and I I l yes, and well, and I love the idea too that this like this man who thought so highly of himself as to gift himself with this title is basically being laughed at like hundreds of years later. Like, what a cheesy title.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. And I know like I'm sure then it it it ha held a lot more esteem and now we're like, well that's kind of silly. bless you. so what
Madeline Martin: Right. Like bless your heart.
Julia Bodwell: does your research timeline look like? I like I know you do a lot of research up front and then you write fairly quickly, right? Is that correct? So what does your kind of timeline
Madeline Martin: Yes, that is correct. So,
Julia Bodwell: look like from s from research start to finished ma you know manuscript?
Madeline Martin: So it's about 10 months of research. this particular book I documented it when I was going through the writing process of it, and and it was it was 32 days, and the goal was to at the end of 32 days be at 70,000 words because we record things based off of word count rather than page count because page count can be so different depending on font size and type. And so I said I wanted to, you know, like I said, 32 days, 70,000 words, and I wrote the end on the 32nd day. at 68.9,000 words. So
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: so and and for people who are like, my gosh, that's like way too fast to be writing it and not experiencing the book. So at this point I've basically spent 10 months living in this story. I've put together incredibly detailed character charts. I know everything about every single character. Even the the animals have like goal motivation conflict. I have like a whole backstory on all of them. And in fact, quick little note about the animals. There are familiars in this book, and I just like to mention that for people who are bleeding hearts, I don't kill or hurt any of the familiars, so you can give your heart to these characters and you are one hundred percent safe. Yes.
Julia Bodwell: Okay, good, 'cause that's that's always like when I read or or watch a you know, a movie or something, I'm like, Don't you dare hurt that dog. If you if you kill
Madeline Martin: Yes.
Julia Bodwell: that dog, I'm putting this book down, I'm turning this show off, I'm not watching it. I've like you can kill all the humans, but don't kill the dog. Don't you hurt that dog. Okay, good.
Madeline Martin: That is one hundred percent me. Yes. And like I have fun familiars in this one, like one is a squirrel, one is a skunk, one
Julia Bodwell: How fun.
Madeline Martin: one is a cat. I mean so yeah, one's a horse. So it's all these different fun animals and you can love them all.
Julia Bodwell: I w I th I think I would want a cat because I just love cats, but a skunk would be kind of cool too. I think a skunk would be neat. I
Madeline Martin: Yes, his name is Lord Wimbledon the Third.
Julia Bodwell: feel like that's that's very appropriate for a skunk.
Madeline Martin: It is. And I actually have kind of a funny story about the skunk. So I had the skunk as being like this older woman in England. No. In fact,
Julia Bodwell: Is that a traditional familiar, a skunk? Okay.
Madeline Martin: so I I'm thinking, my gosh, a skunk, it would be so cute. Like and I I had gone to like a a petting thing one time and there was a skunk there and and she was adorable. And so I'm like, I'm gonna do a skunk. And so I happened to be listening 'cause you know, I do so much research historically. I I never even thought about researching Are skunks indigenous to England? Well, I happen to be listening to
Julia Bodwell: yes, are they?
Madeline Martin: an NPR article and somebody was saying, Well, as you know, they don't really have skunks in England. And I was like, my god, they don't?
Julia Bodwell: no.
Madeline Martin: And I'm like freaking out. Thankfully, I hadn't gotten my edits back. And so when I got my edits, the first thing I did is, and also thankfully, there's a character who is a veterinarian. And so I thought, okay, perfect. So I have a solution for this, and then I you have to read the book to find out. but
Julia Bodwell: Okay. No no no no spoilers, but I love that. So the skunk got to stay. Okay, good.
Madeline Martin: No spoilers. But I will say the skunk got to stay. And it's and I I made it in a way that's still accurate. But I I'm so glad that I listened that I happened to listen to that one NPR article that happened to mention that about the skunks. Otherwise I'm sure I would have had so many emails.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, like skunks don't don't exist over here. Yep.
Madeline Martin: Yeah. Right, yeah, exactly.
Julia Bodwell: Leave it to readers to point out, you know, a a flaw in in a plot or like a plot
Madeline Martin: Yes.
Julia Bodwell: hole. Like this wouldn't work because of why.
Madeline Martin: Yes, exactly.
Julia Bodwell: So you said you did about ten months of research and then thirty two days writing. And it makes sense. I mean, y
Madeline Martin: Yes.
Julia Bodwell: you know, that's a very short amount of time writing, but I I imagine you do a lot of like outlining and and you said you had like a lot of character notes and everything. So you're is it it's kind of like you're almost writing it as you're researching it and then you're just putting it all together. Is that how you do it?
Madeline Martin: I take notes as I'm going and it's almost like things are sort of percolating in my head and like building
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: up. And so I usually end up with like a ton of notebooks filled with notes, you
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: know, historical details, ideas about the characters. I usually have like about 15 notebooks, it's a lot. And so so then I put together my whole outline and my outline ends up being about 25% of the length of the entire book. So
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: it's it's I like to joke that I'm so typey, I'm 12 point times new Roman fond.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha.
Madeline Martin: So it really is like fully complete by the time I start actually working on writing the book. And with this particular story, because I had the historical aspect and I had the contemporary, which by the way, this is my first ever dual timeline, I wrote them independently because the thing is it's so hard to get that 1700 that seventeenth century voice in your head and it has to stay consistent. and same thing with the contemporary side. I wanted I had a certain voice for Lilith that I wanted to maintain that consistency. So I basically wrote them independently so that I could keep them together. And I use a file called or a program called Scrivener. And fortunately Scrivener allows you to point and click and change your chapters around. So I was able to
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: kind of splice them together a lot easier than if I had been in Word copying and pasting super huge chunks of text and hoping I didn't miss something.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, you wouldn't want to like accidentally leave somebody some something behind or, you know, copy paste it in the wrong order. Yeah. my gosh, that'd be awful. I'm
Madeline Martin: Right, duplicate a chapter or worse, lose a couple. Yeah. yeah.
Julia Bodwell: sure there you know, with all the research, extensive research that you do, I'm sure there's stuff that doesn't make it into the book. Is there anything that didn't make it in that you wish had or that you were, you know, kinda like it was bittersweet leaving it out?
Madeline Martin: So, when I write my historical fiction, I try really hard to keep things like clean where where like I can have like you can have like your thirteen or fourteen year old read these books, you know? And so a lot of the witch trials centered on a more purient side where that has a lot of things to do with Copulating with the devil and things like that. I did not put any of that into the book. I kept all of that out because I just wanted it to be clean. but I I did actual historical research on the victims of that witch trial, and I included several of them in the book, but I didn't include all of them. And I wished that
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: I could have detailed out every single one of them, but 18 additional characters into a dual timeline. it would people would be like, wait, who is this again? And what was there? So yeah,
Julia Bodwell: That's a lot, yeah. Yeah.
Madeline Martin: so I didn't I didn't have the opportunity to do that. so those are a couple of things. I did not that I wanted to add all the extra details about the the witch trials
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: in. But one of the things that I wished I could have made work but I couldn't is that gosh, now I have to think of how it works out. We are they were on the Julian calendar and we're on the is it like the Caesarean calendar or something. Anyways, they were two different calendars, which ultimately makes a ten day difference between their August 27th and our August 27th. And I wanted to incorporate that into the book, but it wasn't possible to do. I was gonna have it be like a twist, like, my gosh, I'm gonna die. wait, now I'm not because I have you know it's not August 27th.
Julia Bodwell: I have ten days.
Madeline Martin: But then all of a sudden that extra ten days just stopped my pacing dead in its tracks, and I was like, I can't do this. So yeah, so so
Julia Bodwell: Okay. So that was something that you like y you wanted it to work but it would have felt forced or like it didn't it would it wouldn't make sense?
Madeline Martin: Exactly, yes. But but if anybody is reading this book and they're like, Well, in sixteen forty five it was actually a Julian calendar,
Julia Bodwell: huh.
Madeline Martin: not this calendar, you know, well that that's why. I tried.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Like you tried, you tried to do it, but
Madeline Martin: Yep.
Julia Bodwell: So who of the familiars, I s I'm I'm just like so intrigued by them. Who would who would you pick as your familiar? Which one would you have picked?
Madeline Martin: So I have to choose Dragon because of Gunner, because he
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Okay.
Madeline Martin: inspired Gunner. but I do think that the skunk would be pretty cool. Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, I think the skunk would be cool. so you you yeah, you did kind of keep this one clean and you do kind of overall with your historical fiction, but you also write historical romance. or at least y you did. Are you still writing historical romance? Okay. Okay.
Madeline Martin: No, I'm not writing that anymore. Yeah. And I mean, who's to say if I won't someday again, but for the time being I'm just focused fully on my historical fiction.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. so can you tell us a little bit about the next book after A Time of Witches that you're working on right now that you were doing research for recently, th the Forgotten Pages, right? Can you talk a little are are you allowed to talk about a little about it at all? Okay.
Madeline Martin: Yes, yes, that's correct. The Forgotten Pages. I am, yes, yeah. so the Forgotten Pages is it's kind of like I'm describing it kind of like the secret garden meets the little princess, but like for grown ups. And
Julia Bodwell: Ooh. okay.
Madeline Martin: so it's about a women's reformation home in England set up in Yorkshire. So like if you think of like the Moors like Wuthering Heights, like that area.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: And and it's about these women who
Julia Bodwell: Very atmospheric.
Madeline Martin: Yes. And if you think about like women who find these magical books that they're writing their stories into and magical things kind of start to happen. it's very whimsical, very like very very fairy tale. So I'm what I'm basically calling my tagline for it is the women history wants you to forget the magical books that record their history and it's the adult fairy tale you didn't know you needed. So
Julia Bodwell: I love that.
Madeline Martin: thank you. So that's gonna be coming out fall twenty twenty seven. It doesn't have a cover or a title or it has a title. It doesn't have a cover or the release date or a blurb, but I do have it already on Goodreads, so you could you
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: could add it to your want to read, and then you can also follow along as I'm going through the publication journey and join me in that.
Julia Bodwell: Excellent. That's awesome. So we we've
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: got lots to look forward to from you. and you're just such an accomplished, you know, writer. You've got all these books out, you're a New York Times bestseller. how did you decide that you wanted to make writing your full time career? Because correct me if I'm wrong, your undergraduate degree is not in writing. Yeah.
Madeline Martin: Correct. Yeah. My undergraduate was in business administration with minors in economics, political science and accounting. And I went on to be a business administration, to do or to do a business analyst. my goodness. This is how long it's been. I'm out of corporate America.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha
Madeline Martin: so ultimately for me what happened is I got laid off. Like right before the pandemic, I got laid off and you know, at that point I was writing full time because I was writing about six to eight books a year. is working full time. My daughters were in everything. It was,
Julia Bodwell: That's incredible.
Madeline Martin: it was, I could not do it again. Like it was in my thirties. I could not do it now. I yeah,
Julia Bodwell: Looking back, you're like, How did I do this?
Madeline Martin: I don't even know how I did it. I tell you right now, I did not sleep. I didn't take a sick day. and so basically at that time when I got laid off, I had a talk with my husband and I said, you know what, I think that I would like to not get another job. I'd like to just try writing full time. And he said, okay, go for it. And then the pandemic happened and I'm like questioning all my life choices. And but that's gave me the
Julia Bodwell: I think a lot of us were.
Madeline Martin: my gosh, yes. And and but so that gave me the opportunity to get to write the last bookshop in London. It gave me the opportunity to really delve into the research that was required for a historical fiction. And and then that was the book that hit the New York Times and has had just the most incredible success. And unfortunately my books following that have been successful as well. And it was a complete life changer for me. So now every time I get a new contract, I always think about it in terms of how many more years do I have to not worry about going and having a corporate America job again. I can just keep writing and keep pursuing what I love. and I just I just also like if it's not too cheesy, like thank everybody so much for all of their support
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, yeah.
Madeline Martin: with my books and my career because I couldn't do this without everybody. without everybody's support and and all of their love and and everything. So thank you to the people who read my books, who tell their friends, who write reviews, who come to my events, because they know I'll be coming to your store, which I'm super looking forward to. Yes, I can't wait. And so it really, really does.
Julia Bodwell: Yes, I can't wait. We always love having you. It really it really does take a village though. You know.
Madeline Martin: Yeah. And man, I'm just so grateful for this incredible community that we all belong to.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, it's incredible. so you actually w went back for your master's, you got your MFA at Drexel University.
Madeline Martin: I did.
Julia Bodwell: so and again it I was talking with your bestie Elasonite, she was on the show with me recently because she went and did the program with you as well. And so, you know, for me to look at two very accomplished writers, it's like you almost, you know, it's like you don't need it. Y you're already doing the thing. So I'm just curious, you know, she t she shared why she went back. why did you decide to go back for your masters?
Madeline Martin: So a couple of reasons. One, you know, I didn't let myself pursue anything that I was passionate about when I was in doing my undergrad because I I'm very pragmatic. I thought, well, I just I have to get this degree because you know, I don't know if I do history or if I do writing if that's going to amount to a career that I want to be in. And then so I wanted to give myself the opportunity to do that. second is that I'm always trying to find ways to improve my writing. So I'll do workshops online. I'll do immersions. I will even hire book coaches. Like I'll read through my reviews to try to find where I'm deficient as a writer, and then I find a book coach that specializes in that and and basically just work on that with the next book the entire time. so that's the other part of it. This was for me, I saw it as an educational opportunity to sort of get an a formalized education of writing that I had kind of deprived myself of early on in my career. And then Also, I actually want to be a book coach myself. So thank
Julia Bodwell: wonderful.
Madeline Martin: you. So I have, you know, my my big book tour that I'll be that I'm going to probably be in the middle of while when when we re release this recording. And so I am looking at probably in January is we'll also we'll start doing book coaching officially. And I'm only going to take like two clients on in the very beginning, but I'm super excited about it.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. I mean that's exciting. As long as you're still writing books. We still we still need more books from Alan Martin.
Madeline Martin: absolutely. Yes, yes. In fact I have an idea already for my next historical fiction after I finish the Forgotten Pages and a secret project as well.
Julia Bodwell: and we love secret projects. Okay, we won't we won't pry on the secret project. But it r I really think that's, you know, such good advice too for anyone that might be listening that, you know, is an author or is an aspiring author. you know, just whatever you're doing, really, not even writing, but it's like you can always improve upon and and you know, further your education and and take workshops, take classes, whatever it might be that you're trying to do. it's really just good advice, I think, in all areas of life. Like whatever we're trying to do. We we should always be striving to improve upon and be better and better. So I love that that for you. So you're
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: you've kinda you kinda got to, you know, kill two birds with one stone. You wanted to do the book coaching and you get to just get that formal education that you missed out on with your undergraduate being in in business. so that's awesome. I love that for you. But we yeah, we definitely
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: need we need to we need to keep getting the books from you. So you you need to keep writing. yeah.
Madeline Martin: absolutely, one hundred percent. Yes, that that is also always gonna be forefront.
Julia Bodwell: So I'm I mean you're you're just so busy with writing and research and everything. But what are you reading these days? What are what have you like are super yeah, what are you super into? 'Cause 'cause good writers
Madeline Martin: great question. So I am currently
Julia Bodwell: have to be readers too.
Madeline Martin: yes, absolutely. So I'm currently reading this book writes itself or the ending writes itself.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: it's like a it's like a murder mystery. It's actually really, really good. I'm I'm loving it. And a book that I recently finished is called The Winter Bride by Jane Yang. She's an Australian author. a couple years ago, or maybe it was last year, I can't you know, you know how you don't remember. It's It was a book I read. she Yes.
Julia Bodwell: Like at some point in the past I read this book.
Madeline Martin: her first her debut was called The Lotus Shoes, and it was
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: about two women in ancient China. One is wealthy, one is poor, and basically gets sold as a slave and becomes this girl's maid, and and it's their story, and man, it is so so so good. So her new book is called The Winter Bride. And it comes out, I believe, in March next year. So I was lucky enough to get asked to blurb it. And I was like, my gosh, yes, because I love her writing so much. And this book is about two brides. It's about a century apart. And they both are pregnant and they're they're having to deal with this family curse. And I will tell you right, it's like a it's like a gothic ancient China historical fiction. I will tell you The Winter Bride by Jane Yang.
Julia Bodwell: It sounds so good. What was it called again? The Winter's The Winter's Bride? The Winter Bride. Okay. Okay.
Madeline Martin: And I will tell you right now, I read a ton of thrillers, I read a ton of creepy books. There is a scene there that actually had me get full body chills. And that has like never happened. It was so good.
Julia Bodwell: Ooh, okay. Well y you you had me at at at at Gothic, so
Madeline Martin: Yes. It's so good. I I totally recommend it. So I I highly recommend that people pre-order it. And if you had not read if you haven't read The Lotus Shoes as of yet, definitely put it on your T VR. It's so good.
Julia Bodwell: Awesome. Well I'm I'm adding this to my mental list. my my giant stack of books to read, but that sound yeah, that sounds really
Madeline Martin: I know.
Julia Bodwell: good. so do you what do you do you tend to just read like in all genres? I mean obviously you write historical fiction, I'm sure you read a lot of that too, but you know, you said you said you read thrillers and mysteries and just are you just kind of all over the place with your reading?
Madeline Martin: Am all over the place and I usually have about like seven or eight books going at the same time. I usually have a classic going, I usually have an advanced reader copy that I'm reading for an endorsement. I usually have a self-help audiobook, I have a fun audiobook, and I usually have a couple of books going. It's like, you know, different rooms, different books. Also, like if I'm in the mood, yeah, exactly.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, yeah, right. And it's like, you know, your mood. Yeah. What mood are you in? Yep.
Madeline Martin: Yes, and sometimes I'm like, man, this book is like moody and dark and I'm like, but it's sunny and I'm feeling great. So like I don't really want to read this book right now. Yep.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, nope, that's that totally makes sense. I won't I won't ask the hard question of what is your favorite book of all time because I almost feel like that. As as readers,
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: that's that's impossible. Like that's not even you can't answer that. but I will ask what is your favorite classic?
Madeline Martin: Okay, so my favorite classic, you know, I love Jane Eyre. it really is one of my favorites, but I will say that I've also been one of the little things that I'm doing with there's a big there's a big part of the Bronte's that goes into the Forgotten Pages that has absolutely nothing to do with the plot. But if you're
Julia Bodwell: Mm-hmm.
Madeline Martin: a Bronte fan, trust me you will enjoy this book. and so I've been reading through all of the Bronte sisters works and I will tell you that I I had never read Agnes Gray before and I just read it and my gosh, I mean it was it was such a sweet story. I I really, really absolutely loved it. And then of course Bride and Prejudice. I mean this is even hard to choose, I'm sorry. I know. Well,
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Yeah. I know, right? You're like, no, Julia, this is also a hard question.
Madeline Martin: cause also I love Oscar Wilde's the the st Dorian Grey. my gosh, why is it on
Julia Bodwell: the picture of Dorian Gray. Yeah. Which I haven't read,
Madeline Martin: The picture of Dorian Gray, my gosh.
Julia Bodwell: but I that's on my list. Like I have you know, I have a list of classics, that I feel like I should have read by now, but I haven't. So that's on there. That's definitely on there. Okay.
Madeline Martin: It's incredible. Highly, highly recommend it. Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: That's awesome. I okay, I've got some books to add to my list now. before
Madeline Martin: Ha ha.
Julia Bodwell: well, first I have to get to your book first, but after that I have some more books. so I yeah, I can't wait to read A Time of Witches. thank you so much for
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: for taking some time to chat with me about it. before we go, is there anything that you wanna leave our listeners with?
Madeline Martin: No, not that I can think of, but
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: but thank you so much for inviting me to be on the show. And like I said, I'm I'm so looking forward to getting to be there and do an event with you as well.
Julia Bodwell: Yes, can't wait. Yes. And if you are in in Florida in the Tarpon Springs area, Madeline will be with us at the end of September, September twenty fourth. And if not, you can still pick up a copy of A Time of Witches wherever books are sold. Thank you so much, Madeline and readers. We'll see you next time.
Madeline Martin: Yes. Thank you.
Madeline Martin: thank you so much for inviting me. I've been looking forward to it.
Julia Bodwell: Yes, it's always great seeing you, even if it's through a screen and getting a chat with you. so so excited because I know A Time of Witches is is coming out soon, September first. and I was just getting excited because the cover and those edges, my gosh, and the blurb on the back, the two women bound by blood and betrayal. There it is, show those edges off. my gosh, it's gorgeous. I'm so excited
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: to read this book. So excited to chat with you about it. So can you tell us a little bit about the book?
Madeline Martin: Yeah, so it's a dual timeline that starts off in Savannah, Georgia with a woman who's having a recurring nightmare that she's being burned alive with the stake. And this basically leads her to I
Julia Bodwell: Which how horrific.
Madeline Martin: know, right? So this leads her to an abandoned manor in England where she discovers that her ancestor was burned as a witch in sixteen forty five. So the other part of the book takes place in sixteen forty five. with Sybil who is being accused of witchcraft and it's sh basically showing her going through this process of this accusation and the trials that she's having to endure. And basically the contemporary woman Lilith realizes that she needs to find a way to keep Sybil from being burned alive at the stake, or all will be lost. Dun dun dun.
Julia Bodwell: My gosh. I love that. So it's got like I mean not time travel obviously, but just that sort of connection, like if something like the ripple effect, right? Is that kind of what you were going for? Okay.
Madeline Martin: Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's like so there's like this like abandoned manor because I love abandoned manners and it's like the same day on repeat because it's trying to show Lilith something, about the past. And there's a little bit of a time slip in there, but it's certainly not like the what encompasses the full of the book.
Julia Bodwell: Okay, awesome. so I mean, how did you come up with this idea? Like where did this come to you from?
Madeline Martin: So believe it or not, when I was in high school, I kept having recurring dreams of being burned alive at the stake. Follow me for great sleep tips. I know, I know, it's horrible. so basically, well that's
Julia Bodwell: my gosh, that's awful. Do were you a witch in a past life?
Madeline Martin: what I'm thinking. I'm like, okay, because of course I'm like this like overly imaginative, incredibly dramatic teenager. And my first
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: thought was, of course, this was me in a past life, or maybe it was an ancestor. So I have actually had this idea sort of percolating in the back of my brain for over 25 years. So getting to write this story was honestly like the coolest thing ever.
Julia Bodwell: So twenty five years that it's just been stuck in your brain, why why now? Why not twenty five years ago? Like why not any earlier in career? Why why now?
Madeline Martin: Okay, people do not believe me when I bring this up, but I swear every time I would mention I've got this witch book idea, people were always like, witches don't sell. And so I'm like, okay. So then I'm like, I always read through Publishers Marketplace where it talks about books that are book new book deals that are coming out and everything. And I start seeing which, which, which, and I was like, I have an idea. And finally, yes.
Julia Bodwell: You're like, here we go. Now now's my turn.
Madeline Martin: Yes, exactly. So it's like I was just waiting for like the right moment to be able to finally write the story and here we are.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. And I mean, you've got the black cat behind you. For those that aren't aren't watching
Madeline Martin: I do.
Julia Bodwell: and are only listening, she's got her her black cat joining her. what's his name?
Madeline Martin: This is Gunner. he is the sweetest boy ever. He loves to jump up here. Like, he's like my little armchair cat. And
Julia Bodwell: I love it.
Madeline Martin: he just he keeps me company. He also is the guy who like he takes a nap with me every single day. He's just so sweet. And there is a black cat in A Time of Witches, and
Julia Bodwell: I love it.
Madeline Martin: he actually is inspired by his character is inspired by Gunner and his whole story.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: And I love black cat so much that I also begged my publisher to please make sure that they put the black cat on the cover. So there he is. if you can't
Julia Bodwell: Yes there's a little Easter egg.
Madeline Martin: yes, so so if you're not able to watch this and you're just listening, when you get your copy of A Time of Witches, make sure that you turn over to look at the back copy and on the bottom right hand corner of the cover on the back you'll see an adorable little black cat. Yes, exactly. Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: Yay. Inspired by Gunner. I love that. so I I feel like with this book and then even last year with Secret Book Society, there's been sort of like a noticeable shift, at least from my perspective. Because you you know, you typically would write a lot of like World War II and you know, wartime in England, and and we've sort of taken like a shift over these last two books. It's a little, a little darker. I love it. I mean, the last one, Victorian England, I I loved it. Is that something that it was sort of intentional or just sort of like you said, this this idea was was in your head for twenty five years and it's like time to strike now while witches are hot, but is that something that you kind of did on purpose intentionally to get away from sort of the World War Two and and the wartime era? Or will you return back to that?
Madeline Martin: I never know if I'm going to return to something or not. I mean I love history, so I can never even tell you what time in history I'm going to end up in next unless I'm actively working on that next book. but so for me it was actually intentional. So with World War II, so my my agent likes to have sort of like a an annual talk with all of us to give us a heads up as to what's going on in the marketplace. And the overall consensus is that unfortunately World War II books, the market was very glutted and There's been a lot of World War II reader fatigue, which every time I send this into a room, I see people nodding. So I'm like, okay, yes, exactly. And
Julia Bodwell: Yes. Everyone's nodding, yep. Yep.
Madeline Martin: of course there are still people out there who love World War II books, but there's also a a heavy amount of fatigue. And so we don't want to keep beating people's heads over, like, but you have to read this. because there are so many stories in history to tell. And it's funny because at the time, you know, my agent was like, Well, what seems like it's really selling. is books historical fiction set in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. to which I say rude because that does not feel like historical fiction to me. It is too soon. But
Julia Bodwell: That's too soon. That's that's not far enough away.
Madeline Martin: also like I am like I will go as deep in history as they will let me. And so I basically came up to them and I was like, I wrote this Victorian and that's where I had the Secret Book Society. And with that one, you know, I really just went back. I had written Regency Romance back when I was writing historical romance. And I'd always wanted to write a Victorian. And at the time, Victorian historical romances really weren't doing very well. So I didn't have my opportunity then. So I thought, you know what? I'm going to write about a secret society of women who get together and read books that they're not allowed to read. And it's going to be women building up other women. Yes,
Julia Bodwell: Which I love. It's the the rebellion.
Madeline Martin: it's women building up other women. It's rebellion through literature. It's it's women just empowering one another. And and I loved being able to really convey that message through that story. And and that book, it was something that I wrote with just so much passion. And so so yes, I definitely
Julia Bodwell: You could tell. I mean, the the the characters, the friendships, you know, like you said, the rebellion, that there was so much, you know, feminism and just so many strong themes and and just such a great story and and I loved, you know, l getting to live in that Victorian era for a minute. That's that's one of my favorite eras. So I like, Okay, is she is she deviating or like is this sort of a new path that you're forging? So
Madeline Martin: Yeah, this is and I and also, you know, I love the incorporation of magical realism into my stories. So there was one very, very, very small little like paranormal slash magical realism aspect to the secret book society with the seance. It was very, very small though. but I went all out with that with a time of witches. I really do though try to kind of delve I tried to delve into magic from a nature perspective. I didn't
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: want this to be overly fantastical. For me with a time of witches, I really wanted it to be the sense that like it could happen to you, it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody. And I wanted people to come away with this thinking to themselves, maybe I'm a witch, because maybe there is a little bit of witch in all of us. And so
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: I'm I'm I'm putting together my reader's guide now. But one of the things that the reader's guide is going to have, which will be available by the way on my website, just madelynmartin.com.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: it's going to have a little one of those little quizzes that we used to take in the 17 magazine, like, are you a witch?
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: and it's going to have a little thing where you can see how witchy you are, which is, you know, kind of a fun aspect of it. But but even like thinking about book ideas going forward and even my current book that I'm working on right now that that we'll talk about later, I know, I love this incorporation of magical realism because when I think back to when I fell in love with books and with stories, it was fairy tales, right? And fairy tales always feel like old history, but with like a magical twist. And so writing these books makes it feel like I'm writing sort of like, you know, adult fairy tales. And and it really
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: is just so much fun. It's like the sky is the limit.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. And it's a nice blend too, because you know, it it's not it doesn't feel like fantasy where it's so out there and outlandish that it couldn't happen. Like you said, it's the magical realism where you're sort of weaving that in to the historical piece. So it's like, you know, why why couldn't I have been a witch in in my former life, you know? Who's to s
Madeline Martin: Exactly.
Julia Bodwell: who's to say I couldn't have been, you know?
Madeline Martin: Yes, exactly.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. So I know you you were just recently in Europe researching for your upcoming release, which we'll talk about in a minute. So for for this one for a time of witches, did you go to Europe? Do you do any like I you like to immerse yourself. What was the research like for this one?
Madeline Martin: Yes, I did I had to go to England. I mean one does what one must for their craft. I know. I also went to Savannah. so it's you
Julia Bodwell: You're like no. Right. Okay.
Madeline Martin: know it's interesting because even though I've been to Savannah multiple times, I had never been for research. And when I visit
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: somewhere for research versus for vacation, they're two totally different brains that I bring into that. Obviously the vacation one is like, Wee, I'm having a great time, but the author is so much more sensory. It's thinking about, you know, what do the cobblestones feel like beneath my feet? What does the air smell like? What does it look like? What flowers are here in the squares? What are the trees? What are the trees that the moss is hanging from? What type of tree is it? You know,
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: it's it's recording all of these little details so that I can replicate them into the story. and I did get to go to Barry St. Edmunds, which is where and
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: the reason why I selected Barry St. Edmunds, England is because this is where they had the largest execution of people who were accused of witchcraft. And so
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Madeline Martin: on August 27th, 1645, there were 18 people who were hanged, 16 women and two men. And really the whole it was all instigated by Matthew Hopkins, who was he as he declared himself, the witchfinder general.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: and I have a little funny story about that in just one second, because I know that's not funny, but I swear there's a funny
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: story about it. But but going to Barrie St. Edmunds was so cool because they have all of these old buildings still in existence from the 1500s. The entire layout
Julia Bodwell: Just the just the craftsmanship like that those these buildings are still standing after all that time is incredible.
Madeline Martin: Yes, it's crazy. And it's it's the build of this stuff called waddle and daub, which is s sort of like this mud and stick, kind of concrete stuff. And so it it moves and flexes and so these buildings have these like crazy lanes to them. And you think, like, how does this building even stay up? But it's almost like built to withstand that, which is just crazy. and the whole city is still built in this grid like layout. So you can still see what it looked like, the streets, how they would have looked in the day of Sybil. and and even they have this amazing museum called Moise's Hall that's in a building that's from like eleven hundred. I mean it's just incredible. So getting to go there and experience it was really just such an awesome exp opportunity. And the tour guides there were just on point. In fact, it was funny because I took so many tours with the tour guides that they wrote about me in the local paper and it was like author takes record number of tours in Barry St. Edmunds.
Julia Bodwell: I love that.
Madeline Martin: and actually yes. Yes,
Julia Bodwell: Good. Th now people can go read the book after and, you know, kind of piece together like, I've been there.
Madeline Martin: exactly. And also my my UK edition of A Time of Witches comes out on October 8th. So they're actually having me come to Barrie St. Edmunds to do a chat at one of the churches. And
Julia Bodwell: wow.
Madeline Martin: the curator for Moisie's Hall is actually bringing one of the witch trial pamphlets for people to see as well. So so it's super cool that I get to go back and do that. Yes!
Julia Bodwell: That's incredible. If anybody wants to go to England, you know, in October to meet Madeline Martin and
Madeline Martin: Come on down. We'll go together. but so kind of the funny story about Matthew Hopkins. When I was going through and doing my edits, he did call himself the Witch Finder General. And when I was going through my edits, my editor highlighted that one particular piece and she said, This is a little cheesy. Do you think that we can come up with a different name? And I said, you know what, I I was like, I don't disagree with you. However,
Julia Bodwell: It's just like that's what he was called.
Madeline Martin: I said, This is what he called himself and it's historically accurate, so no, I can't change it.
Julia Bodwell: For accuracy, we need to leave it. Sorry. Sorry it's cheesy, but you can go back in time and tell him that.
Madeline Martin: Exactly. Yeah, and I I l yes, and well, and I love the idea too that this like this man who thought so highly of himself as to gift himself with this title is basically being laughed at like hundreds of years later. Like, what a cheesy title.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah. And I know like I'm sure then it it it ha held a lot more esteem and now we're like, well that's kind of silly. bless you. so what
Madeline Martin: Right. Like bless your heart.
Julia Bodwell: does your research timeline look like? I like I know you do a lot of research up front and then you write fairly quickly, right? Is that correct? So what does your kind of timeline
Madeline Martin: Yes, that is correct. So,
Julia Bodwell: look like from s from research start to finished ma you know manuscript?
Madeline Martin: So it's about 10 months of research. this particular book I documented it when I was going through the writing process of it, and and it was it was 32 days, and the goal was to at the end of 32 days be at 70,000 words because we record things based off of word count rather than page count because page count can be so different depending on font size and type. And so I said I wanted to, you know, like I said, 32 days, 70,000 words, and I wrote the end on the 32nd day. at 68.9,000 words. So
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: so and and for people who are like, my gosh, that's like way too fast to be writing it and not experiencing the book. So at this point I've basically spent 10 months living in this story. I've put together incredibly detailed character charts. I know everything about every single character. Even the the animals have like goal motivation conflict. I have like a whole backstory on all of them. And in fact, quick little note about the animals. There are familiars in this book, and I just like to mention that for people who are bleeding hearts, I don't kill or hurt any of the familiars, so you can give your heart to these characters and you are one hundred percent safe. Yes.
Julia Bodwell: Okay, good, 'cause that's that's always like when I read or or watch a you know, a movie or something, I'm like, Don't you dare hurt that dog. If you if you kill
Madeline Martin: Yes.
Julia Bodwell: that dog, I'm putting this book down, I'm turning this show off, I'm not watching it. I've like you can kill all the humans, but don't kill the dog. Don't you hurt that dog. Okay, good.
Madeline Martin: That is one hundred percent me. Yes. And like I have fun familiars in this one, like one is a squirrel, one is a skunk, one
Julia Bodwell: How fun.
Madeline Martin: one is a cat. I mean so yeah, one's a horse. So it's all these different fun animals and you can love them all.
Julia Bodwell: I w I th I think I would want a cat because I just love cats, but a skunk would be kind of cool too. I think a skunk would be neat. I
Madeline Martin: Yes, his name is Lord Wimbledon the Third.
Julia Bodwell: feel like that's that's very appropriate for a skunk.
Madeline Martin: It is. And I actually have kind of a funny story about the skunk. So I had the skunk as being like this older woman in England. No. In fact,
Julia Bodwell: Is that a traditional familiar, a skunk? Okay.
Madeline Martin: so I I'm thinking, my gosh, a skunk, it would be so cute. Like and I I had gone to like a a petting thing one time and there was a skunk there and and she was adorable. And so I'm like, I'm gonna do a skunk. And so I happened to be listening 'cause you know, I do so much research historically. I I never even thought about researching Are skunks indigenous to England? Well, I happen to be listening to
Julia Bodwell: yes, are they?
Madeline Martin: an NPR article and somebody was saying, Well, as you know, they don't really have skunks in England. And I was like, my god, they don't?
Julia Bodwell: no.
Madeline Martin: And I'm like freaking out. Thankfully, I hadn't gotten my edits back. And so when I got my edits, the first thing I did is, and also thankfully, there's a character who is a veterinarian. And so I thought, okay, perfect. So I have a solution for this, and then I you have to read the book to find out. but
Julia Bodwell: Okay. No no no no spoilers, but I love that. So the skunk got to stay. Okay, good.
Madeline Martin: No spoilers. But I will say the skunk got to stay. And it's and I I made it in a way that's still accurate. But I I'm so glad that I listened that I happened to listen to that one NPR article that happened to mention that about the skunks. Otherwise I'm sure I would have had so many emails.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, like skunks don't don't exist over here. Yep.
Madeline Martin: Yeah. Right, yeah, exactly.
Julia Bodwell: Leave it to readers to point out, you know, a a flaw in in a plot or like a plot
Madeline Martin: Yes.
Julia Bodwell: hole. Like this wouldn't work because of why.
Madeline Martin: Yes, exactly.
Julia Bodwell: So you said you did about ten months of research and then thirty two days writing. And it makes sense. I mean, y
Madeline Martin: Yes.
Julia Bodwell: you know, that's a very short amount of time writing, but I I imagine you do a lot of like outlining and and you said you had like a lot of character notes and everything. So you're is it it's kind of like you're almost writing it as you're researching it and then you're just putting it all together. Is that how you do it?
Madeline Martin: I take notes as I'm going and it's almost like things are sort of percolating in my head and like building
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: up. And so I usually end up with like a ton of notebooks filled with notes, you
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: know, historical details, ideas about the characters. I usually have like about 15 notebooks, it's a lot. And so so then I put together my whole outline and my outline ends up being about 25% of the length of the entire book. So
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: it's it's I like to joke that I'm so typey, I'm 12 point times new Roman fond.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha.
Madeline Martin: So it really is like fully complete by the time I start actually working on writing the book. And with this particular story, because I had the historical aspect and I had the contemporary, which by the way, this is my first ever dual timeline, I wrote them independently because the thing is it's so hard to get that 1700 that seventeenth century voice in your head and it has to stay consistent. and same thing with the contemporary side. I wanted I had a certain voice for Lilith that I wanted to maintain that consistency. So I basically wrote them independently so that I could keep them together. And I use a file called or a program called Scrivener. And fortunately Scrivener allows you to point and click and change your chapters around. So I was able to
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: kind of splice them together a lot easier than if I had been in Word copying and pasting super huge chunks of text and hoping I didn't miss something.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, you wouldn't want to like accidentally leave somebody some something behind or, you know, copy paste it in the wrong order. Yeah. my gosh, that'd be awful. I'm
Madeline Martin: Right, duplicate a chapter or worse, lose a couple. Yeah. yeah.
Julia Bodwell: sure there you know, with all the research, extensive research that you do, I'm sure there's stuff that doesn't make it into the book. Is there anything that didn't make it in that you wish had or that you were, you know, kinda like it was bittersweet leaving it out?
Madeline Martin: So, when I write my historical fiction, I try really hard to keep things like clean where where like I can have like you can have like your thirteen or fourteen year old read these books, you know? And so a lot of the witch trials centered on a more purient side where that has a lot of things to do with Copulating with the devil and things like that. I did not put any of that into the book. I kept all of that out because I just wanted it to be clean. but I I did actual historical research on the victims of that witch trial, and I included several of them in the book, but I didn't include all of them. And I wished that
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: I could have detailed out every single one of them, but 18 additional characters into a dual timeline. it would people would be like, wait, who is this again? And what was there? So yeah,
Julia Bodwell: That's a lot, yeah. Yeah.
Madeline Martin: so I didn't I didn't have the opportunity to do that. so those are a couple of things. I did not that I wanted to add all the extra details about the the witch trials
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: in. But one of the things that I wished I could have made work but I couldn't is that gosh, now I have to think of how it works out. We are they were on the Julian calendar and we're on the is it like the Caesarean calendar or something. Anyways, they were two different calendars, which ultimately makes a ten day difference between their August 27th and our August 27th. And I wanted to incorporate that into the book, but it wasn't possible to do. I was gonna have it be like a twist, like, my gosh, I'm gonna die. wait, now I'm not because I have you know it's not August 27th.
Julia Bodwell: I have ten days.
Madeline Martin: But then all of a sudden that extra ten days just stopped my pacing dead in its tracks, and I was like, I can't do this. So yeah, so so
Julia Bodwell: Okay. So that was something that you like y you wanted it to work but it would have felt forced or like it didn't it would it wouldn't make sense?
Madeline Martin: Exactly, yes. But but if anybody is reading this book and they're like, Well, in sixteen forty five it was actually a Julian calendar,
Julia Bodwell: huh.
Madeline Martin: not this calendar, you know, well that that's why. I tried.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Like you tried, you tried to do it, but
Madeline Martin: Yep.
Julia Bodwell: So who of the familiars, I s I'm I'm just like so intrigued by them. Who would who would you pick as your familiar? Which one would you have picked?
Madeline Martin: So I have to choose Dragon because of Gunner, because he
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Okay.
Madeline Martin: inspired Gunner. but I do think that the skunk would be pretty cool. Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, I think the skunk would be cool. so you you yeah, you did kind of keep this one clean and you do kind of overall with your historical fiction, but you also write historical romance. or at least y you did. Are you still writing historical romance? Okay. Okay.
Madeline Martin: No, I'm not writing that anymore. Yeah. And I mean, who's to say if I won't someday again, but for the time being I'm just focused fully on my historical fiction.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. so can you tell us a little bit about the next book after A Time of Witches that you're working on right now that you were doing research for recently, th the Forgotten Pages, right? Can you talk a little are are you allowed to talk about a little about it at all? Okay.
Madeline Martin: Yes, yes, that's correct. The Forgotten Pages. I am, yes, yeah. so the Forgotten Pages is it's kind of like I'm describing it kind of like the secret garden meets the little princess, but like for grown ups. And
Julia Bodwell: Ooh. okay.
Madeline Martin: so it's about a women's reformation home in England set up in Yorkshire. So like if you think of like the Moors like Wuthering Heights, like that area.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah.
Madeline Martin: And and it's about these women who
Julia Bodwell: Very atmospheric.
Madeline Martin: Yes. And if you think about like women who find these magical books that they're writing their stories into and magical things kind of start to happen. it's very whimsical, very like very very fairy tale. So I'm what I'm basically calling my tagline for it is the women history wants you to forget the magical books that record their history and it's the adult fairy tale you didn't know you needed. So
Julia Bodwell: I love that.
Madeline Martin: thank you. So that's gonna be coming out fall twenty twenty seven. It doesn't have a cover or a title or it has a title. It doesn't have a cover or the release date or a blurb, but I do have it already on Goodreads, so you could you
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: could add it to your want to read, and then you can also follow along as I'm going through the publication journey and join me in that.
Julia Bodwell: Excellent. That's awesome. So we we've
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: got lots to look forward to from you. and you're just such an accomplished, you know, writer. You've got all these books out, you're a New York Times bestseller. how did you decide that you wanted to make writing your full time career? Because correct me if I'm wrong, your undergraduate degree is not in writing. Yeah.
Madeline Martin: Correct. Yeah. My undergraduate was in business administration with minors in economics, political science and accounting. And I went on to be a business administration, to do or to do a business analyst. my goodness. This is how long it's been. I'm out of corporate America.
Julia Bodwell: Ha ha
Madeline Martin: so ultimately for me what happened is I got laid off. Like right before the pandemic, I got laid off and you know, at that point I was writing full time because I was writing about six to eight books a year. is working full time. My daughters were in everything. It was,
Julia Bodwell: That's incredible.
Madeline Martin: it was, I could not do it again. Like it was in my thirties. I could not do it now. I yeah,
Julia Bodwell: Looking back, you're like, How did I do this?
Madeline Martin: I don't even know how I did it. I tell you right now, I did not sleep. I didn't take a sick day. and so basically at that time when I got laid off, I had a talk with my husband and I said, you know what, I think that I would like to not get another job. I'd like to just try writing full time. And he said, okay, go for it. And then the pandemic happened and I'm like questioning all my life choices. And but that's gave me the
Julia Bodwell: I think a lot of us were.
Madeline Martin: my gosh, yes. And and but so that gave me the opportunity to get to write the last bookshop in London. It gave me the opportunity to really delve into the research that was required for a historical fiction. And and then that was the book that hit the New York Times and has had just the most incredible success. And unfortunately my books following that have been successful as well. And it was a complete life changer for me. So now every time I get a new contract, I always think about it in terms of how many more years do I have to not worry about going and having a corporate America job again. I can just keep writing and keep pursuing what I love. and I just I just also like if it's not too cheesy, like thank everybody so much for all of their support
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, yeah.
Madeline Martin: with my books and my career because I couldn't do this without everybody. without everybody's support and and all of their love and and everything. So thank you to the people who read my books, who tell their friends, who write reviews, who come to my events, because they know I'll be coming to your store, which I'm super looking forward to. Yes, I can't wait. And so it really, really does.
Julia Bodwell: Yes, I can't wait. We always love having you. It really it really does take a village though. You know.
Madeline Martin: Yeah. And man, I'm just so grateful for this incredible community that we all belong to.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, it's incredible. so you actually w went back for your master's, you got your MFA at Drexel University.
Madeline Martin: I did.
Julia Bodwell: so and again it I was talking with your bestie Elasonite, she was on the show with me recently because she went and did the program with you as well. And so, you know, for me to look at two very accomplished writers, it's like you almost, you know, it's like you don't need it. Y you're already doing the thing. So I'm just curious, you know, she t she shared why she went back. why did you decide to go back for your masters?
Madeline Martin: So a couple of reasons. One, you know, I didn't let myself pursue anything that I was passionate about when I was in doing my undergrad because I I'm very pragmatic. I thought, well, I just I have to get this degree because you know, I don't know if I do history or if I do writing if that's going to amount to a career that I want to be in. And then so I wanted to give myself the opportunity to do that. second is that I'm always trying to find ways to improve my writing. So I'll do workshops online. I'll do immersions. I will even hire book coaches. Like I'll read through my reviews to try to find where I'm deficient as a writer, and then I find a book coach that specializes in that and and basically just work on that with the next book the entire time. so that's the other part of it. This was for me, I saw it as an educational opportunity to sort of get an a formalized education of writing that I had kind of deprived myself of early on in my career. And then Also, I actually want to be a book coach myself. So thank
Julia Bodwell: wonderful.
Madeline Martin: you. So I have, you know, my my big book tour that I'll be that I'm going to probably be in the middle of while when when we re release this recording. And so I am looking at probably in January is we'll also we'll start doing book coaching officially. And I'm only going to take like two clients on in the very beginning, but I'm super excited about it.
Julia Bodwell: Okay. I mean that's exciting. As long as you're still writing books. We still we still need more books from Alan Martin.
Madeline Martin: absolutely. Yes, yes. In fact I have an idea already for my next historical fiction after I finish the Forgotten Pages and a secret project as well.
Julia Bodwell: and we love secret projects. Okay, we won't we won't pry on the secret project. But it r I really think that's, you know, such good advice too for anyone that might be listening that, you know, is an author or is an aspiring author. you know, just whatever you're doing, really, not even writing, but it's like you can always improve upon and and you know, further your education and and take workshops, take classes, whatever it might be that you're trying to do. it's really just good advice, I think, in all areas of life. Like whatever we're trying to do. We we should always be striving to improve upon and be better and better. So I love that that for you. So you're
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: you've kinda you kinda got to, you know, kill two birds with one stone. You wanted to do the book coaching and you get to just get that formal education that you missed out on with your undergraduate being in in business. so that's awesome. I love that for you. But we yeah, we definitely
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: need we need to we need to keep getting the books from you. So you you need to keep writing. yeah.
Madeline Martin: absolutely, one hundred percent. Yes, that that is also always gonna be forefront.
Julia Bodwell: So I'm I mean you're you're just so busy with writing and research and everything. But what are you reading these days? What are what have you like are super yeah, what are you super into? 'Cause 'cause good writers
Madeline Martin: great question. So I am currently
Julia Bodwell: have to be readers too.
Madeline Martin: yes, absolutely. So I'm currently reading this book writes itself or the ending writes itself.
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: it's like a it's like a murder mystery. It's actually really, really good. I'm I'm loving it. And a book that I recently finished is called The Winter Bride by Jane Yang. She's an Australian author. a couple years ago, or maybe it was last year, I can't you know, you know how you don't remember. It's It was a book I read. she Yes.
Julia Bodwell: Like at some point in the past I read this book.
Madeline Martin: her first her debut was called The Lotus Shoes, and it was
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: about two women in ancient China. One is wealthy, one is poor, and basically gets sold as a slave and becomes this girl's maid, and and it's their story, and man, it is so so so good. So her new book is called The Winter Bride. And it comes out, I believe, in March next year. So I was lucky enough to get asked to blurb it. And I was like, my gosh, yes, because I love her writing so much. And this book is about two brides. It's about a century apart. And they both are pregnant and they're they're having to deal with this family curse. And I will tell you right, it's like a it's like a gothic ancient China historical fiction. I will tell you The Winter Bride by Jane Yang.
Julia Bodwell: It sounds so good. What was it called again? The Winter's The Winter's Bride? The Winter Bride. Okay. Okay.
Madeline Martin: And I will tell you right now, I read a ton of thrillers, I read a ton of creepy books. There is a scene there that actually had me get full body chills. And that has like never happened. It was so good.
Julia Bodwell: Ooh, okay. Well y you you had me at at at at Gothic, so
Madeline Martin: Yes. It's so good. I I totally recommend it. So I I highly recommend that people pre-order it. And if you had not read if you haven't read The Lotus Shoes as of yet, definitely put it on your T VR. It's so good.
Julia Bodwell: Awesome. Well I'm I'm adding this to my mental list. my my giant stack of books to read, but that sound yeah, that sounds really
Madeline Martin: I know.
Julia Bodwell: good. so do you what do you do you tend to just read like in all genres? I mean obviously you write historical fiction, I'm sure you read a lot of that too, but you know, you said you said you read thrillers and mysteries and just are you just kind of all over the place with your reading?
Madeline Martin: Am all over the place and I usually have about like seven or eight books going at the same time. I usually have a classic going, I usually have an advanced reader copy that I'm reading for an endorsement. I usually have a self-help audiobook, I have a fun audiobook, and I usually have a couple of books going. It's like, you know, different rooms, different books. Also, like if I'm in the mood, yeah, exactly.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, yeah, right. And it's like, you know, your mood. Yeah. What mood are you in? Yep.
Madeline Martin: Yes, and sometimes I'm like, man, this book is like moody and dark and I'm like, but it's sunny and I'm feeling great. So like I don't really want to read this book right now. Yep.
Julia Bodwell: Yeah, nope, that's that totally makes sense. I won't I won't ask the hard question of what is your favorite book of all time because I almost feel like that. As as readers,
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: that's that's impossible. Like that's not even you can't answer that. but I will ask what is your favorite classic?
Madeline Martin: Okay, so my favorite classic, you know, I love Jane Eyre. it really is one of my favorites, but I will say that I've also been one of the little things that I'm doing with there's a big there's a big part of the Bronte's that goes into the Forgotten Pages that has absolutely nothing to do with the plot. But if you're
Julia Bodwell: Mm-hmm.
Madeline Martin: a Bronte fan, trust me you will enjoy this book. and so I've been reading through all of the Bronte sisters works and I will tell you that I I had never read Agnes Gray before and I just read it and my gosh, I mean it was it was such a sweet story. I I really, really absolutely loved it. And then of course Bride and Prejudice. I mean this is even hard to choose, I'm sorry. I know. Well,
Julia Bodwell: Okay. Yeah. I know, right? You're like, no, Julia, this is also a hard question.
Madeline Martin: cause also I love Oscar Wilde's the the st Dorian Grey. my gosh, why is it on
Julia Bodwell: the picture of Dorian Gray. Yeah. Which I haven't read,
Madeline Martin: The picture of Dorian Gray, my gosh.
Julia Bodwell: but I that's on my list. Like I have you know, I have a list of classics, that I feel like I should have read by now, but I haven't. So that's on there. That's definitely on there. Okay.
Madeline Martin: It's incredible. Highly, highly recommend it. Yeah.
Julia Bodwell: That's awesome. I okay, I've got some books to add to my list now. before
Madeline Martin: Ha ha.
Julia Bodwell: well, first I have to get to your book first, but after that I have some more books. so I yeah, I can't wait to read A Time of Witches. thank you so much for
Madeline Martin: Thank you.
Julia Bodwell: for taking some time to chat with me about it. before we go, is there anything that you wanna leave our listeners with?
Madeline Martin: No, not that I can think of, but
Julia Bodwell: Okay.
Madeline Martin: but thank you so much for inviting me to be on the show. And like I said, I'm I'm so looking forward to getting to be there and do an event with you as well.
Julia Bodwell: Yes, can't wait. Yes. And if you are in in Florida in the Tarpon Springs area, Madeline will be with us at the end of September, September twenty fourth. And if not, you can still pick up a copy of A Time of Witches wherever books are sold. Thank you so much, Madeline and readers. We'll see you next time.
Madeline Martin: Yes. Thank you.
