Zoom Depositions: The Good, The Bad, and The Unsettled

WEBVTT
00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:07.179
Hello, everyone, and welcome to today's program,
00:00:07.540 --> 00:00:10.240
Zoom Depositions, the good, the bad, and the
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:13.580
unsettled. I'm Alapoli Castro, Director of Education
00:00:13.580 --> 00:00:15.580
and Professional Development at Beverly Hills
00:00:15.580 --> 00:00:18.579
Bar Association. And today I'm delighted to introduce
00:00:18.579 --> 00:00:22.219
our speakers, Adam Carlson, Andy Schwartz, as
00:00:22.219 --> 00:00:26.679
well as our moderator, Kondo Dike Kongsar. Condo
00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:29.760
is an associate attorney at Casper Meadow Schwartz
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:32.640
& Cook and represents plaintiffs in complex civil
00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.659
litigation involving wrongful death, catastrophic
00:00:35.659 --> 00:00:38.770
personal injury, and product liability. Kondo
00:00:38.770 --> 00:00:41.750
earned her law degree at UC College of Law, San
00:00:41.750 --> 00:00:44.670
Francisco, where she was the co -founder of Law
00:00:44.670 --> 00:00:47.609
Empowerment and Access Project, which focuses
00:00:47.609 --> 00:00:50.310
on advocating accessibility to legal education
00:00:50.310 --> 00:00:52.929
to underrepresented minorities through diverse
00:00:52.929 --> 00:00:55.390
representation and mentorship to pursue higher
00:00:55.390 --> 00:00:58.950
education. I'm going to turn it over to her to
00:00:58.950 --> 00:01:01.369
introduce you to our speakers, Adam and Andy.
00:01:03.710 --> 00:01:07.939
Hey, hello, everyone. Hello, everyone. I just
00:01:07.939 --> 00:01:10.599
wanted to introduce myself again. I'm Kondo.
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:14.239
I'm going to be moderating today's CLE. And I
00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:17.140
have the honor of introducing our panelists.
00:01:18.180 --> 00:01:22.640
So Mr. Adam Carlson works at Casper Meadows -Schultz
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.299
& Cook as a managing partner. He represents individuals
00:01:26.299 --> 00:01:29.719
in serious personal injury cases with an emphasis
00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:33.659
on spinal cord injuries, traumatic brain injuries,
00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:36.640
permanent disability claims. including those
00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:39.340
arising from product defects, dangerous premises,
00:01:39.859 --> 00:01:43.500
and construction site incidents. Adam has been
00:01:43.500 --> 00:01:46.519
a co -lead for multiple trial practice series
00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.019
programs and organized the learning by doing
00:01:49.019 --> 00:01:53.079
deposition course and has also taught at or lectured
00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:55.299
at Berkeley Law School on negotiating a personal
00:01:55.299 --> 00:01:58.640
injury case. He's tried cases where all depositions
00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:01.859
in the cases were conducted in person and ones
00:02:01.859 --> 00:02:04.599
where they were all on Zoom. He also authored
00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:07.480
an article with the same title as his program
00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.520
for The Daily Journal, where the Beverly Hills
00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:12.659
Bar Association actually contacted him to put
00:02:12.659 --> 00:02:17.060
on this program. And Mr. Andy Schwartz is the
00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:20.039
recently retired founding partner of Casper Meadows,
00:02:20.180 --> 00:02:23.360
Schwartz and Cook. Andy began his career in the
00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:26.280
Contra Costa County Public Defender's Office
00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:29.819
and was certified by the California State Bar
00:02:29.819 --> 00:02:34.479
as a criminal law specialist in 1982. In 1979,
00:02:34.740 --> 00:02:37.120
along with the other founding partners, Stan
00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.659
Casper, they both founded Casper Meadows, Schwartz,
00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:45.740
and Cook. In 2002, Andy was certified as a civil
00:02:45.740 --> 00:02:48.599
trial advocate by the National Board of Trial
00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:51.400
Advocates. He's a member of both the American
00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:54.639
College of Trial Lawyers and the American Board
00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.159
of Trial Advocates. He served as a judge pro
00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:02.159
tem in both Alameda and Contra Costa County and
00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:05.560
has tried numerous cases to verdict in both state
00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.819
and federal courts for more than four years.
00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:12.520
And with that, I'd like to pass it on to Adam
00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:14.780
to kind of briefly introduce the program and
00:03:14.780 --> 00:03:18.000
what it's going to be about. Hi there, everyone.
00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:23.400
So I'll go over what this program is. It is a
00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:26.400
balanced examination of benefits and drawbacks
00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:29.599
of Zoom depositions, which obviously are prevalent
00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:33.520
in our practice now with there being a choice
00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:35.860
these days of in -person versus Zoom. And we
00:03:35.860 --> 00:03:39.520
are going to present both sides of it. It involves
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:43.199
people who have a preference for one or the other.
00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:46.979
I prefer Zoom. It's nice to have this conversation
00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:48.939
with Andy and his perspective because he has
00:03:48.939 --> 00:03:51.759
a preference for in -person. So benefits and
00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.840
drawbacks of Zoom depositions, a discussion about
00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.479
how remote depositions and the unique aspects
00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.120
of it in terms of strategy, case development,
00:04:01.300 --> 00:04:03.620
as well as issues of fairness with potential
00:04:03.620 --> 00:04:07.379
witness coaching. What this program today is
00:04:07.379 --> 00:04:11.419
not, it is not a step -by -step how -to or technical
00:04:11.419 --> 00:04:15.650
training for either in -person or Zoom depositions.
00:04:16.029 --> 00:04:18.829
Obviously, some of the how -to's will be touched
00:04:18.829 --> 00:04:20.490
on, but we're not going in depth about that.
00:04:20.529 --> 00:04:22.730
There's other programs out there that focus more
00:04:22.730 --> 00:04:25.949
on that, not focusing on the granular logistics
00:04:25.949 --> 00:04:30.870
of things, platform -specific issues. So that's
00:04:30.870 --> 00:04:33.189
why we're here today. And it's been interesting,
00:04:33.290 --> 00:04:36.449
the response to my article. I feel like it's
00:04:36.449 --> 00:04:39.269
the first publication where someone other than
00:04:39.269 --> 00:04:41.310
my mother has had an interest in what I wrote,
00:04:41.350 --> 00:04:44.959
because a lot of lawyers have reached out with
00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:48.939
their stories. A lot of judges have read it and
00:04:48.939 --> 00:04:51.939
they've been curious about what I said. So it
00:04:51.939 --> 00:04:54.459
even led to the Beverly Hill Bars Association
00:04:54.459 --> 00:04:57.240
picking this up and thought that it had value
00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:00.579
for you all today. So welcome everyone and look
00:05:00.579 --> 00:05:04.540
forward to this conversation. Awesome. So we're
00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:08.439
gonna go ahead and get started on the CLE and
00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:13.180
I'm gonna ask the first question to Adam. Adam,
00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:16.540
what do you consider when choosing between a
00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:19.860
remote deposition? And why do you prefer remote
00:05:19.860 --> 00:05:23.800
as opposed to an in -person deposition? Yeah,
00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:28.339
I think really big picture sort of helicopter
00:05:28.339 --> 00:05:32.620
view over the trees down below. I think two things
00:05:32.620 --> 00:05:35.740
really come to mind. And the first one is that
00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:40.230
I feel as though my performance is better. And
00:05:40.230 --> 00:05:43.350
what I'm talking about is sort of my dealing
00:05:43.350 --> 00:05:47.350
with my outline as it's going on through the
00:05:47.350 --> 00:05:49.730
deposition. I'm in my computer. I can type as
00:05:49.730 --> 00:05:52.589
fast as the person speaking. It's a changing
00:05:52.589 --> 00:05:55.110
outline. I'm copy pasting. I'm taking things
00:05:55.110 --> 00:05:57.470
and putting it in later in the outline. I hear
00:05:57.470 --> 00:06:00.649
a witness say something. I type it exactly. I
00:06:00.649 --> 00:06:04.290
can read it back to him and really stay in the
00:06:04.290 --> 00:06:06.829
moment with all that. And I'll talk more in depth
00:06:06.829 --> 00:06:09.899
about that later. The other in terms of my performance
00:06:09.899 --> 00:06:12.360
being better is I feel like there's so many benefits
00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:17.079
to online Zoom depositions with exhibits. And
00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:20.660
I think that if there's a lot of exhibits involved
00:06:20.660 --> 00:06:22.759
or even not a lot of exhibits involved, it's
00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:27.779
a lot better through Zoom. And lastly, I think
00:06:27.779 --> 00:06:31.699
that it's a lower stress event for me with not
00:06:31.699 --> 00:06:33.620
dealing with logistics as much. I'm gonna talk
00:06:33.620 --> 00:06:35.990
a little bit more. about some more of that later,
00:06:36.050 --> 00:06:38.569
but I feel like my performance is better. I sort
00:06:38.569 --> 00:06:42.149
of feel like I'm in this like command center
00:06:42.149 --> 00:06:45.089
in my office, like launching like impeachment
00:06:45.089 --> 00:06:47.850
bombs and loading up the artillery cannon with
00:06:47.850 --> 00:06:49.910
exhibits and firing them and annihilating the
00:06:49.910 --> 00:06:52.550
opponent, you know, all from my gaming chair
00:06:52.550 --> 00:06:55.149
here. And I feel like in the comfort of my, you
00:06:55.149 --> 00:06:58.069
know, own room, I'm just like, you know, crushing
00:06:58.069 --> 00:07:00.829
the deposition. So I feel like my performance
00:07:00.829 --> 00:07:03.819
is better in the deposition. And the second thing
00:07:03.819 --> 00:07:06.779
big picture is I feel as though I get better
00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:10.399
content. It does relate, you know, obviously
00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.860
to my performance being better. But I feel like
00:07:13.860 --> 00:07:16.560
sometimes I like to get witnesses relaxed. They
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:18.779
sort of forget that this is like a real deal
00:07:18.779 --> 00:07:21.699
proceeding. And they kind of give up the goods
00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:24.060
in a sense because they're not on guard. And
00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:28.740
I like that. So those are the two big picture
00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:31.800
things that come to mind about why I prefer doing
00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:35.600
depositions on zoom awesome thank you for that
00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:39.000
and andy the same question is for you kind of
00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:41.879
looking at the big picture why do you prefer
00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:45.779
in -person depositions and what are your considerations
00:07:45.779 --> 00:07:49.980
there well um hi everybody it's nice to be here
00:07:50.719 --> 00:07:53.379
First of all, I understand how technology usually
00:07:53.379 --> 00:07:55.980
wins and I fully understand that and I'm not
00:07:55.980 --> 00:07:58.220
here to make the last stand for the baby boomers
00:07:58.220 --> 00:08:00.540
because I know that this is inevitable and it's
00:08:00.540 --> 00:08:04.160
happening. But on the other hand, anybody who's
00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:06.259
ever tried a case and who's visited the scene
00:08:06.259 --> 00:08:08.800
of an accident or the scene of an incident rather,
00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:11.740
you know there's something that you learn from
00:08:11.740 --> 00:08:14.560
being there in person. It's not necessarily the
00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:16.720
same thing, but it's something you get perspective.
00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.300
You get to see the people involved. You see where
00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:22.000
the streets cross. You see where the traffic
00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:23.920
lights are, where the witnesses may or may not
00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:27.240
have been standing. And you miss that when you
00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.939
don't do it in person. And I find and I have
00:08:30.939 --> 00:08:34.080
found that when you're in the room with an important
00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.759
witness, regardless of the impediments to getting
00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.590
there or getting him or her there, you're gonna
00:08:40.590 --> 00:08:43.149
learn something and you're not gonna give your
00:08:43.149 --> 00:08:46.570
opponent an advantage by your not being there.
00:08:47.009 --> 00:08:49.470
And from my perspective, and I've done both because
00:08:49.470 --> 00:08:51.950
I've recently retired. I worked through the pandemic.
00:08:52.070 --> 00:08:56.210
I did two full -blown bonding arbitrations all
00:08:56.210 --> 00:08:58.929
on Zoom. So I know what they're both are like,
00:08:59.549 --> 00:09:02.110
but I also know that when you're doing things
00:09:02.110 --> 00:09:04.409
in person, there are things that you can gain
00:09:04.409 --> 00:09:07.289
that are unavailable when you're doing them online.
00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:10.100
And so from that perspective, you know, Adam's
00:09:10.100 --> 00:09:12.840
done a million of these. His outcomes have been
00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:16.679
fantastic, but there is another side to it that
00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:20.240
I grew up with in this practice that I think
00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:22.679
that advantages are to be gained by being in
00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:24.519
the room with the person who you're deposing.
00:09:26.079 --> 00:09:29.879
Thank you so much, Andy. Going back a little
00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:33.679
to your last answer, Adam, you mentioned the
00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.600
exhibits. I think that's a huge part of depositions,
00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:40.019
remote or in person. Can you expand a little
00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:43.419
more on how remote depositions are more efficient
00:09:43.419 --> 00:09:46.379
and specifically with the exhibits, you know,
00:09:46.500 --> 00:09:50.259
note taking, outlining your deposition? Yeah,
00:09:50.259 --> 00:09:54.379
I think that it's kind of one of the biggest
00:09:55.859 --> 00:09:58.779
advantages, I think, when I'm thinking about
00:09:58.779 --> 00:10:03.620
Zoom depositions, is how you can handle exhibits.
00:10:04.539 --> 00:10:08.580
When you're preparing for an in -person deposition,
00:10:09.220 --> 00:10:11.460
you're dealing a lot with printing out these
00:10:11.460 --> 00:10:15.080
copies. Depending on the number of lawyers at
00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:17.639
the deposition, you have to print that many copies.
00:10:18.980 --> 00:10:23.009
Some depositions that I've done involve even
00:10:23.009 --> 00:10:25.769
like, you know, almost over a thousand pages
00:10:25.769 --> 00:10:30.149
of documents. And you have to bring binders to
00:10:30.149 --> 00:10:33.970
this deposition. And I'm spending all this time
00:10:33.970 --> 00:10:37.149
prepping this deposition, like putting stickies
00:10:37.149 --> 00:10:40.870
in these pages and stuff like that, rather than,
00:10:40.870 --> 00:10:44.250
you know, crafting my outline, things like that.
00:10:44.769 --> 00:10:48.169
And you can, and there's also the unanticipated
00:10:48.169 --> 00:10:50.970
exhibit that comes up a lot with the witness.
00:10:51.579 --> 00:10:54.879
You're asking them questions, including even
00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:56.840
one of the first questions of a deposition, what
00:10:56.840 --> 00:10:59.179
documents have you reviewed? And they refer to
00:10:59.179 --> 00:11:02.759
a document you haven't printed out. Or in the
00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:07.419
questioning, they refer to a document. And if
00:11:07.419 --> 00:11:10.639
you're on Zoom, you can stay in the moment. You
00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:13.340
can literally pause, say, OK, that document.
00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.100
You can pause, go to the other part of your computer,
00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:19.720
get out the document. You can do a search in
00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.460
the document, control that, find the content
00:11:22.460 --> 00:11:24.379
that they were looking for, slide it over into
00:11:24.379 --> 00:11:27.759
your exhibit on Zoom, pull it up on the screen,
00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.519
and then you ask a question about it. And you're
00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:32.259
in the moment, in the flow of the deposition.
00:11:32.379 --> 00:11:34.940
So they refer to this thing. You've had six or
00:11:34.940 --> 00:11:37.039
seven questions and answers leading up to this
00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:39.179
moment of this exhibit, and you're in the flow,
00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:43.179
and it just happened. Compared to you're in this
00:11:43.179 --> 00:11:47.139
deposition in person, and they reference an exhibit.
00:11:47.849 --> 00:11:51.009
Now, you're not going to pause the deposition
00:11:51.009 --> 00:11:52.870
right there necessarily. You might if you think
00:11:52.870 --> 00:11:55.210
it's a big deal. But then during a break, you're
00:11:55.210 --> 00:11:57.710
going, you're getting it printed. Over a lunch
00:11:57.710 --> 00:11:59.909
break, you're getting it printed, whatever it
00:11:59.909 --> 00:12:03.830
might be. And you lose the moment where you were.
00:12:03.950 --> 00:12:07.490
It's really hard to get everyone back to that
00:12:07.490 --> 00:12:09.750
moment, the flow. And then you ask them a question.
00:12:10.110 --> 00:12:11.950
Well, don't you remember you said earlier this?
00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:15.299
And you can even read it off of the real -time
00:12:15.299 --> 00:12:22.360
core. You lose that moment. So I like the ability
00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:28.379
to have these exhibits on Zoom. It's too stressful
00:12:28.379 --> 00:12:31.419
dealing with these big binders and then the unanticipated
00:12:31.419 --> 00:12:34.159
exhibit that comes up inevitably during a lot
00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:37.919
of these depositions. So a consideration when
00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.919
thinking about Zoom versus in -person, is, might
00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.539
be, for you, how many exhibits are involved.
00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:46.779
What kind of case is it? Because not every case
00:12:46.779 --> 00:12:49.639
is exhibit -driven. Not every deponent is exhibit
00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:52.519
-driven. And so if you have a witness who has
00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.480
less exhibits involved, or you have a contained
00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:57.940
sort of a number of exhibits there might be for
00:12:57.940 --> 00:13:00.379
the witness, that's one thing to consider. If
00:13:00.379 --> 00:13:03.120
it's going to be a document -intensive witness
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.220
with a lot of exhibits, if a case has a lot of
00:13:06.220 --> 00:13:08.519
exhibits, then maybe that's something you should
00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:12.379
consider. I think Adam's right. When these document
00:13:12.379 --> 00:13:16.240
heavy exhibit depositions, it may be better to
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:19.940
do it on Zoom. A lot of my cases don't have a
00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:23.139
lot of documents, but some of them did. And Adam
00:13:23.139 --> 00:13:25.679
makes a very good point. When it's document heavy,
00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:30.059
it's really sort of a pain in the behind to carry
00:13:30.059 --> 00:13:32.580
around multiple binders and make sure everybody
00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:35.379
has them, make sure they're all marked properly
00:13:35.379 --> 00:13:37.700
and they're part of the record. On the other
00:13:37.700 --> 00:13:40.679
hand, I taught at Stanford at a trial advocacy
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:45.120
program for one evening last fall. And a big
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:49.440
part of the program that I was part of was how
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:54.340
to introduce evidence at a deposition. So it
00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:57.440
cuts both ways. You have to know how to introduce
00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.639
the evidence at the deposition. On the other
00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.419
hand, there's multiple documents. I think Adam
00:14:02.419 --> 00:14:05.019
makes a real good point. It might be better under
00:14:05.019 --> 00:14:07.240
certain circumstances with certain witnesses,
00:14:07.899 --> 00:14:10.519
particularly those that are document heavy, to
00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:13.500
have it on Zoom, to have the documents recorded
00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:16.960
electronically rather than bulky six or seven
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:21.480
binders of hundreds of pages of documents. And
00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:26.240
kind of on the same topic of efficiency, what
00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.860
about note taking? What about outline? What do
00:14:29.860 --> 00:14:32.240
you see the advantages and disadvantages of in
00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:35.460
-person versus in -person? Andy, we can start
00:14:35.460 --> 00:14:38.559
with you. Yeah, well, it's really not a problem
00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:42.480
for me. Adam does it his way. I mean, when I
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:44.720
took the bar exam, I think 5 % of the people
00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:48.759
typed it. Now, nobody types it. It's all on a
00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.120
computer. And we hand wrote our bar exam. So
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.080
I just learned a different way. So in terms of
00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.690
note -taking for me in a non - electronic deposition,
00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:01.090
I just take notes. It's not an issue for me.
00:15:01.090 --> 00:15:03.309
I can keep up. There's a court reporter there,
00:15:03.429 --> 00:15:05.070
present in the room. If you need something read
00:15:05.070 --> 00:15:07.690
back, it could be read back. You could do real
00:15:07.690 --> 00:15:12.250
time if you wanted to. It's more expensive. But
00:15:12.250 --> 00:15:15.350
note taking is not an issue for me. But I think
00:15:15.350 --> 00:15:23.350
Adam feels differently about that. Yeah. My deposition
00:15:23.350 --> 00:15:28.080
outline on my Word documents is just this living,
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.039
breathing, out -of -control document that is
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:36.840
continually massaged and edited as the deposition
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:42.840
is ongoing. I'm copy -pasting. I have the document
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:46.820
open, a Word document, and I put it right where
00:15:46.820 --> 00:15:51.279
the camera is. So I'm looking at the person.
00:15:51.620 --> 00:15:53.059
I'm actually looking at the word, but they think
00:15:53.059 --> 00:15:56.370
I'm looking at them. And the top half is the
00:15:56.370 --> 00:15:59.049
outline, the bottom half I've split view. And
00:15:59.049 --> 00:16:02.429
so down below I can scroll up and down the rest
00:16:02.429 --> 00:16:05.889
of my outline to find other things in there.
00:16:06.129 --> 00:16:08.070
If the witness says something I want to return
00:16:08.070 --> 00:16:12.649
to, I'll put it in that section later. Sometimes
00:16:12.649 --> 00:16:15.230
I'm then even on like, you know, looking at things
00:16:15.230 --> 00:16:17.090
on Google, they say a word or term I haven't
00:16:17.090 --> 00:16:18.429
heard of, I quickly, they're still answering,
00:16:18.450 --> 00:16:21.320
you know, then I put that, bring that over. So
00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:23.899
this outline is I'm taking notes. I'm looking
00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:26.360
at the person. I'm typing along. I type every
00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:29.019
word they say because I can type that fast. And
00:16:29.019 --> 00:16:31.299
I just feel very comfortable that I'm going to
00:16:31.299 --> 00:16:33.860
make sure I hit all of my points. And then when
00:16:33.860 --> 00:16:36.980
they say something I want to return to or highlight,
00:16:37.419 --> 00:16:40.159
it comes back into the section where I have all
00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.740
the other questions. So it's a more flow of a
00:16:44.740 --> 00:16:47.899
deposition. You know, you can return to issues
00:16:47.899 --> 00:16:49.659
and things like that, but you really want to
00:16:49.659 --> 00:16:51.659
stay in the moment with the witness and the question
00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:53.919
questioning. You know, you really want to capture
00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.279
the moment. And I find it hard to return to a
00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.539
moment. I just, with the flow of the witness,
00:16:59.659 --> 00:17:02.080
things kind of change, maybe a break. They talk
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.200
with counsel and counsel's like, you know, it's
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.019
not so great how you kind of were talking about
00:17:08.019 --> 00:17:10.460
that thing. And then the next time you come back
00:17:10.460 --> 00:17:13.799
around to it, it's a different conversation.
00:17:14.029 --> 00:17:17.109
I like being, I'm able to be in the moment. And
00:17:17.109 --> 00:17:22.210
you can be on your laptop in person. You can,
00:17:23.049 --> 00:17:26.710
but it is awful. I mean, it's just the, the feeling
00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:29.170
in the room I have seen from my perspective,
00:17:29.170 --> 00:17:31.150
it's awful. Maybe you do it. I don't mean to
00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:33.710
be judgmental. I don't think it's good, but I've
00:17:33.710 --> 00:17:36.730
seen lawyers take depositions on their laptops
00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:42.390
and the whole time in this deposition, they're
00:17:42.390 --> 00:17:45.710
there typing. and doing exactly what I was talking
00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:48.049
about doing, but I have it up where the camera
00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:50.309
is. And they're in there and they're doing what
00:17:50.309 --> 00:17:54.210
I'm doing. And it's just not a good look. It's
00:17:54.210 --> 00:17:56.630
just the whole feeling in the room is weird.
00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:00.170
And I feel self -conscious when I do it, when
00:18:00.170 --> 00:18:04.230
I'm looking over things like that, but the whole
00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:06.450
looking and find other exhibits and stuff, when
00:18:06.450 --> 00:18:09.480
you're on Zoom, it's sort of like... socially
00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:12.000
accepted to kind of look off camera at times
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.500
and not look directly at the person. And so I
00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:16.220
just don't have an I don't feel self conscious
00:18:16.220 --> 00:18:19.839
about looking around my computer. So I just think
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:23.559
this like living outline document starts off
00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.099
very robust and gets even bigger and grows on
00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:30.579
what the witness says. Yeah, I just I'm sure
00:18:30.579 --> 00:18:33.259
you agree with this. I've told I teach when I
00:18:33.259 --> 00:18:36.119
do teach the most important part of any deposition
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.990
is listening to the answers. And so many people
00:18:38.990 --> 00:18:40.809
get stuck on their outline, they're not paying
00:18:40.809 --> 00:18:43.970
attention to what the answers are. And you've
00:18:43.970 --> 00:18:45.849
addressed this in what you previously said, Adam,
00:18:45.869 --> 00:18:49.509
and you make good points. I could do it my way,
00:18:49.569 --> 00:18:51.630
you do it your way, but I would just add that
00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:54.430
the most important part of any deposition is
00:18:54.430 --> 00:18:56.509
what the answer is, not what your question is,
00:18:56.509 --> 00:18:58.809
because the answer is gonna lead to more questions.
00:18:59.410 --> 00:19:01.210
And if you wanna do it on your laptop, that's
00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:05.460
fine. You wanna do it in... in person with your
00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:07.480
own notes and not on your laptop, that's fine
00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.279
too. But just be prepared to be facile and mobile
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.839
on your feet because you don't always get the
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.019
answers you expect and your outline doesn't necessarily
00:19:17.019 --> 00:19:20.140
carry the day as much as the answers do. So I
00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:22.440
would just add that to what Adam says, which
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.740
I'm sure he would agree with what I had to say.
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:29.799
Definitely, definitely. Speaking of being prepared,
00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:35.559
I will start with Adam. Is there a different
00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:38.359
way that you would prepare for remote deposition
00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:41.140
versus an in -person deposition? I think this
00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:45.299
is especially important for newer attorneys like
00:19:45.299 --> 00:19:48.279
myself, knowing the differences. Do you prepare
00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:51.259
differently? Do you prepare the same? Could you
00:19:51.259 --> 00:19:55.240
speak on that one? Yeah. I mean, I think the
00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.380
thing that comes to mind a lot is just like these
00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.180
exhibit things of how are you going to handle
00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:02.319
all these exhibits? And that's just a major part
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:07.130
of the prep. getting it getting all that, you
00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:12.910
know, situated the outlining. So the outlining
00:20:12.910 --> 00:20:17.890
for me kind of gets to the point that Andy made.
00:20:19.210 --> 00:20:26.769
When I am in person, my outline is way more pared
00:20:26.769 --> 00:20:31.329
down, less written out specific questions, because
00:20:31.329 --> 00:20:35.490
I want to kind of be engaged with the witness.
00:20:35.650 --> 00:20:37.369
I mean, I'm there in person. I want to be engaged
00:20:37.369 --> 00:20:39.369
with the witness. I don't want to then look down
00:20:39.369 --> 00:20:43.950
and read an entire phrase or sentence. It's more
00:20:43.950 --> 00:20:47.750
along the lines of bullet points of issues. And
00:20:47.750 --> 00:20:50.630
then in the moment, capitalizing on what Andy
00:20:50.630 --> 00:20:52.349
says I agree with, which I do agree with what
00:20:52.349 --> 00:20:54.950
he said about being in the moment and hearing
00:20:54.950 --> 00:20:58.549
the answer and then going with it based on your
00:20:58.549 --> 00:21:02.740
outline and issues and subjects. But for me,
00:21:02.779 --> 00:21:06.400
when I do an outline for myself on the that I'm
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.980
going to do a zoom deposition, it does have more
00:21:08.980 --> 00:21:12.700
a lot more written out because I feel like I
00:21:12.700 --> 00:21:16.099
can be reading it as the witness is answering
00:21:16.099 --> 00:21:19.319
and has all that more written out as opposed
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.880
to like if I glance down at an outline. So that's
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.519
kind of the difference in terms of preparing
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:33.529
like the outline. But then, you know, if the
00:21:33.529 --> 00:21:36.470
deposition is not at your home turf, not at your
00:21:36.470 --> 00:21:37.970
office, you have to think about all the other
00:21:37.970 --> 00:21:41.089
things you have to prepare for and just make
00:21:41.089 --> 00:21:43.569
sure that you're logistically set up, what you're
00:21:43.569 --> 00:21:46.109
gonna do that morning, do all these things that
00:21:46.109 --> 00:21:51.829
are not involved with the Zoom deposition. And
00:21:51.829 --> 00:21:55.769
Andy, for you, how do you prepare for in -person
00:21:55.769 --> 00:21:59.569
versus remote deposition? Is it the same? I think
00:21:59.569 --> 00:22:02.490
for me, it's pretty much the same. Like I said,
00:22:02.670 --> 00:22:07.369
I haven't taken a remote deposition for quite
00:22:07.369 --> 00:22:09.210
a while. I did it a lot during the pandemic,
00:22:09.289 --> 00:22:12.750
and I retired in 2024, and I haven't done a lot
00:22:12.750 --> 00:22:15.329
since then. But at the end of the day, you've
00:22:15.329 --> 00:22:17.130
always got to keep in mind, we're in the people
00:22:17.130 --> 00:22:19.970
business. We're trying to convince jurors, and
00:22:19.970 --> 00:22:22.730
we've got to talk to them. They're our friends,
00:22:22.789 --> 00:22:26.829
and we're going to get them on our side. And
00:22:26.829 --> 00:22:28.490
you have to be comfortable talking to people
00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:31.589
in person. And you don't have that component
00:22:31.589 --> 00:22:35.089
when you're taking depositions continuously or
00:22:35.089 --> 00:22:39.089
remotely. You get comfortable talking to people
00:22:39.089 --> 00:22:41.950
face -to -face, doing face -to -face depositions.
00:22:41.970 --> 00:22:45.269
And I'm concerned, at least to some degree, that
00:22:45.269 --> 00:22:48.609
in certain circumstances you lose that. So I
00:22:48.609 --> 00:22:50.890
don't prepare definitely. differently, and I'm
00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:53.170
more than willing to take remote depositions
00:22:53.170 --> 00:22:55.910
under certain circumstances. You save money,
00:22:55.910 --> 00:22:58.230
you save time, and some depositions aren't as
00:22:58.230 --> 00:23:00.769
important as others. But ones that are crucial,
00:23:01.769 --> 00:23:03.589
like I said, I don't prepare differently, but
00:23:03.589 --> 00:23:06.089
I'm being more inclined to do them in person
00:23:06.089 --> 00:23:12.069
than remotely. And I had a comment from the audience
00:23:12.069 --> 00:23:16.430
in regards to the Zoom or the remote versus live
00:23:16.430 --> 00:23:19.890
depositions. They said, isn't stress good? Aren't
00:23:19.890 --> 00:23:22.069
you going to need to deal with paper and people
00:23:22.069 --> 00:23:25.789
at trial? Isn't litigation a social event? And
00:23:25.789 --> 00:23:29.210
isn't an in -person messy depo great trial prep?
00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:34.710
Do either of you have any comment to that? Let
00:23:34.710 --> 00:23:40.190
me just tell, when I teach trial practice, I
00:23:40.190 --> 00:23:42.109
tell people the most important thing is you don't
00:23:42.109 --> 00:23:44.829
spill water on your pants. So the answer is,
00:23:44.970 --> 00:23:47.930
yeah, it's very stressful. But stress is good.
00:23:48.049 --> 00:23:50.269
And I concur with the questioner or the person
00:23:50.269 --> 00:23:53.589
who made the comment. Zoom depots are also stressful
00:23:53.589 --> 00:23:55.630
for different reasons or for other reasons or
00:23:55.630 --> 00:23:59.630
additional reasons. But you're right, the questioner.
00:24:00.150 --> 00:24:03.109
It is stressful. And thinking on your feet and
00:24:03.109 --> 00:24:06.569
being able to think quickly is part of our job
00:24:06.569 --> 00:24:09.049
and the part that we really like. It comes up
00:24:09.049 --> 00:24:12.049
in Zoom depots, too. And Adam will talk to that.
00:24:12.589 --> 00:24:16.119
But I agree. It is stressful. And that's not
00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:18.880
bad. Part of handling stress is part of our job,
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:23.759
and we like that part. Yeah, I think depending
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:29.200
on what the stress is, I don't like adding unnecessary
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.319
stress in my life. I mean, you know, this exhibit
00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.059
stuff I'm thinking about is like so stressful
00:24:36.059 --> 00:24:38.579
when I prep for a deposition, but getting that
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:41.220
all together. If it's an away game, if I'm not
00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:43.509
having my home turf, I'm I'm stressed around
00:24:43.509 --> 00:24:45.849
like, okay, parking or where am I getting my
00:24:45.849 --> 00:24:47.650
morning breakfast? I'm adding all these things
00:24:47.650 --> 00:24:51.210
in. You know, some is referred to, I guess, as
00:24:51.210 --> 00:24:53.009
decision fatigue. You know, you want to limit
00:24:53.009 --> 00:24:56.410
your decisions. It's what it is, stress fatigue.
00:24:59.190 --> 00:25:02.490
And stress is good in a sense. And I think that
00:25:02.490 --> 00:25:05.309
raises the point of like younger attorneys. I
00:25:05.309 --> 00:25:08.750
do think that for younger attorneys with less
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.900
courtroom and trial experience, there is a lot
00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:15.079
of value of doing the in -person depot because
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:21.339
it's more similar to a hearing or trial than
00:25:21.339 --> 00:25:23.859
a Zoom deposition. It just is. With the anxiety
00:25:23.859 --> 00:25:25.799
that comes with it, with the in -person things,
00:25:26.180 --> 00:25:28.319
all that. So for younger attorneys who don't
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:30.220
have as much trial experience, maybe you do want
00:25:30.220 --> 00:25:33.019
to experience that stress with just a deposition
00:25:33.019 --> 00:25:35.630
level, but In general, I'm trying to limit the
00:25:35.630 --> 00:25:37.589
stress in my life. I want to get a really good
00:25:37.589 --> 00:25:40.190
deposition. I'm low stress over here in my command
00:25:40.190 --> 00:25:42.150
center, like firing off impeachment missiles,
00:25:42.170 --> 00:25:44.769
and I'm chill. I go to, like, sometimes I go
00:25:44.769 --> 00:25:47.109
to these, you know, especially in a way game
00:25:47.109 --> 00:25:50.470
depo, getting through the exhibits and this whole
00:25:50.470 --> 00:25:53.710
thing. At the end of the deposition, it's like,
00:25:55.430 --> 00:25:58.589
oh, it's over. Like, I need a massage after that,
00:25:58.609 --> 00:26:00.349
but not a Thai massage, because those are stressful
00:26:00.349 --> 00:26:03.519
too, like. But when I do Zoom depositions in
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.980
my office, I'm done. I was like, all right, I'm
00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:08.160
going to have a snack and get right back in it.
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:10.079
And then you're talking about sometimes you have
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:14.619
a week with multiple depositions, and you have
00:26:14.619 --> 00:26:17.799
all the stress fatigue after Monday, and you
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:21.359
have four more days of it. So I think, yeah,
00:26:21.460 --> 00:26:25.640
stress can be good, but what stress is it? Let
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:27.859
me pick up on a point that Adam just made, and
00:26:27.859 --> 00:26:29.279
we talked about this, the three of us getting
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:33.640
ready for this webinar. Kondo brought up this
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.380
point, and I think it's an excellent point. Younger
00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:38.859
lawyers really have to get out from behind their
00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:41.680
computer. I mean, Adam's been at it for quite
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.519
some time. He's very experienced. This has a
00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:49.130
lot of success. Younger lawyers who have not
00:26:49.130 --> 00:26:51.269
taken a depo in person haven't been to court.
00:26:51.930 --> 00:26:53.769
My favorite part of being a lawyer was going
00:26:53.769 --> 00:26:56.670
to court and trying cases. I liked winning them
00:26:56.670 --> 00:26:59.009
better than losing them, but it was great being
00:26:59.009 --> 00:27:02.849
in court and seeing other people. And so, to
00:27:02.849 --> 00:27:05.609
your point, Adam, that you just made that I agree
00:27:05.609 --> 00:27:08.549
with, if you're younger, get out from behind
00:27:08.549 --> 00:27:11.029
your computer. It's a great world out there,
00:27:11.190 --> 00:27:14.630
and it might be a little more stressful, but...
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:16.660
The whole point of this job is to connect with
00:27:16.660 --> 00:27:19.400
people and to help people and to convince people.
00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:23.259
And when you're always behind your computer,
00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:25.359
you're missing out on a real good part of what
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:28.599
we're doing for a living, all of us. So kind
00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:31.900
of along those lines, Andy, what do you think
00:27:31.900 --> 00:27:36.640
are the disadvantages and risks to a remote deposition?
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.279
Well, like I said, you miss out on a lot. I mean,
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:43.220
some of my best friends, professionally at least,
00:27:43.789 --> 00:27:45.930
have been made from my opponents. I mean, I'm
00:27:45.930 --> 00:27:48.170
in a boat. I'm in American College of trial lawyers.
00:27:48.309 --> 00:27:52.089
They're very collegial organizations. And if
00:27:52.089 --> 00:27:53.930
we didn't agree, we'd always go to court and
00:27:53.930 --> 00:27:56.009
get it resolved by somebody else. But often,
00:27:56.170 --> 00:27:58.509
as you everybody knows, most cases don't get
00:27:58.509 --> 00:28:00.690
tried. I mean, I think less gets right now than
00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:03.670
when I was doing them. But I wasn't trying to
00:28:03.670 --> 00:28:05.630
case every week. I was trying to couple three
00:28:05.630 --> 00:28:09.349
a year at the most. But I had relationships with
00:28:09.349 --> 00:28:12.730
my opposing counsel. We would go to lunch. Sometimes,
00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:15.650
not often, but we take we take a 10 minute recess
00:28:15.650 --> 00:28:18.670
and we talk. We're interacting face to face.
00:28:19.569 --> 00:28:21.549
I don't care what anybody says. It's not the
00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:24.829
same than talking on Zoom. I could talk to Adam
00:28:24.829 --> 00:28:28.250
and Yukondo now, but we had lunch together Friday
00:28:28.250 --> 00:28:34.319
or last week and I see you often. you miss out
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.819
on the relationship or go into court. I understand
00:28:36.819 --> 00:28:38.640
that hardly anybody goes to court anymore, which
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.160
is a shame. I understand that most mediations
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:45.960
now are done remotely. I think you're missing
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.700
out and you're not as effective when you don't
00:28:49.700 --> 00:28:51.640
have a relationship with the opposing counsel.
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:54.579
And sometimes not often, but occasionally it's
00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:57.380
bad. And at least you know what a bad relationship
00:28:57.380 --> 00:28:59.779
is like. I mean, I got along with most of my
00:28:59.779 --> 00:29:02.619
opponents. there'd be an occasional opponent
00:29:02.619 --> 00:29:07.099
who wasn't... I teach civility for aboda and
00:29:07.099 --> 00:29:10.440
I've taught it for the past 20 years. And it
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.599
was a good part of my practice. I mean, you get
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:13.839
along with other people. You meet people who
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:15.980
you like, who have common interests, who have
00:29:15.980 --> 00:29:18.720
the same profession. Even though they're trying
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.359
to win their case and they were really good,
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:23.970
you still had a relationship with them. And you
00:29:23.970 --> 00:29:25.990
miss out on that when you're doing it remotely.
00:29:26.230 --> 00:29:28.109
I know Adam feels differently about that to some
00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:30.329
degree, but I think he might agree with part
00:29:30.329 --> 00:29:35.529
of what I have to say also. I would say, Andy,
00:29:35.650 --> 00:29:37.970
I agree with a lot of what you had to say. And
00:29:37.970 --> 00:29:41.430
I've actually, Andy and I, Andy is my most impactful
00:29:41.430 --> 00:29:44.390
mentor in my career. I would love to have the
00:29:44.390 --> 00:29:48.680
success over his career for me. He's had incredible
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:51.720
trial results, all from in -person, all those
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:54.420
in -person depot trials that have resulted for
00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:58.799
him. And I think we've had so many back and forths
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:01.440
with this issue and it's great conversations
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.859
to have. And I think that the leading factor
00:30:05.859 --> 00:30:10.440
weighing in favor of in -person is this interpersonal
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.519
dynamic relationship with counsel. I've come
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:19.940
to recognize that it is different. And having
00:30:19.940 --> 00:30:22.259
that relationship with opposing counsel goes
00:30:22.259 --> 00:30:26.059
such a long way for handling the and confer issues,
00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:29.619
things like that, or to try and resolve the case
00:30:29.619 --> 00:30:32.079
and get the best outcome for your client. And
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:33.799
I actually had a little bit of an epiphany when
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.339
we were kind of having even more conversations
00:30:36.339 --> 00:30:40.279
last week. And what I realized was that, I don't
00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:42.799
necessarily feel a difference with my relationship
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:46.579
with opposing counsel on my end. When I when
00:30:46.579 --> 00:30:49.319
I meet them in person, I've made friends over
00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:52.920
like Zoom hangouts over during during COVID and
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:54.619
then I meet them in person. I don't think that
00:30:54.619 --> 00:30:56.240
my relationship changed with them. I still have
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:59.400
that, you know, same connection. But what I've
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:02.859
looking back on and I realize that these interpersonal
00:31:02.859 --> 00:31:04.859
dynamic relationships, they're two way streets.
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.259
And I think that I connected from the other person's
00:31:08.259 --> 00:31:10.380
perspective. because they felt more connected
00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:13.640
to me. Perhaps it's a generational thing where
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:16.079
older attorneys feel more of a connection with
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.000
me when they've met me in person. But looking
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.799
back on some of my cases, I'm like, you know
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.460
what? That case did kind of turn after we met
00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:24.700
in court for the MSJ hearing. And our relationship
00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:26.880
was different. I didn't view him any differently,
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:30.119
but he viewed me differently. He must have. And
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.220
so that is a major consideration that he gets
00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:35.480
to know opposing counsel, and that is just massive
00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:39.259
in a case. And I recognize that to be a big disadvantage,
00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:41.599
even though you can chat with lawyers on Zoom
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.579
after and before, shaking someone's hand is massive.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.039
I recognize that. So I agree with a lot of what
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:52.180
Andy says. Also, just speaking as myself as a
00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:54.599
newer attorney, even though I've been in the
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:58.009
Zoom world and this is my current world, I also
00:31:58.009 --> 00:32:01.369
appreciate that in -person relationship that
00:32:01.369 --> 00:32:03.829
you can cultivate. The rapport that you make
00:32:03.829 --> 00:32:07.869
in person versus Zoom, I think is really important.
00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:12.390
And then kind of moving forward, I really wanted
00:32:12.390 --> 00:32:16.789
to ask you guys, does the deponent, the person
00:32:16.789 --> 00:32:22.730
that you are deposing, does that factor into
00:32:22.730 --> 00:32:25.519
your decision to take their remote? their deposition
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:29.819
remotely or in person, like P &Qs, expert witnesses,
00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:34.019
or plaintiffs or defendants. And Andy, can we
00:32:34.019 --> 00:32:36.519
start with you? Well, yeah, the answer is of
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:38.500
course. I mean, you know, typically if you're
00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:40.559
doing a plaintiff's personal injury case, you
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:42.640
want to depose the defendant unless liability
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:45.359
is not an issue. We still want to see who the
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:46.900
defendant is. Is it a corporate defendant? Is
00:32:46.900 --> 00:32:49.720
it a person? How's the person going to react
00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:53.539
to be? Listen, if the jury likes the defendant
00:32:53.539 --> 00:32:55.900
and you have a great case, it hurts your case
00:32:55.900 --> 00:32:58.039
that they like the defendant. You've got to know
00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:00.920
that. And you find out that better in person,
00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:05.240
I would think, than you do online or remotely.
00:33:07.220 --> 00:33:10.619
Experts. I would want to depose an expert in
00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:12.740
person. There were times during the pandemic
00:33:12.740 --> 00:33:14.900
when I couldn't and I didn't. And like I said,
00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:18.119
I went to two hearings. One of them was a three
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:22.039
day binding arbitration. It was very expert intensive
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:27.140
and I never deposed the experts and I felt like
00:33:27.140 --> 00:33:31.140
I wanted to. The result was fine but I still
00:33:31.140 --> 00:33:34.440
needed to depose them in person when I couldn't.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:37.519
I have a friend who was designated as an expert
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:41.880
in a legal malpractice case in San Diego and
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:45.400
she was deposed remotely as an expert and she
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:48.279
loved it. She felt comfortable, she was relaxed.
00:33:49.239 --> 00:33:51.940
And she preferred that much more than she would
00:33:51.940 --> 00:33:55.019
have preferred. She told me to be having to go
00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:57.240
somewhere to the lawyer's office or federal court.
00:33:57.240 --> 00:33:59.339
They would have to come to her. The case was
00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:03.039
in San Diego. So, yeah, you definitely care who
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:06.400
you're deposing. If it's a minimal consequential
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:10.019
witness who's a six hour flight away, you know,
00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:13.639
for a half hour, it's an easy call. But there's
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:15.860
much more gray than that. I mean, that's a silly
00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:20.730
example that I just gave. But yeah, the answer
00:34:20.730 --> 00:34:22.989
to your question is an unequivocal yes, it matters.
00:34:23.389 --> 00:34:26.250
And there's a lot of nuances to it. And you got
00:34:26.250 --> 00:34:29.429
to decide. On the other hand, I've seen Adam
00:34:29.429 --> 00:34:31.929
take depositions in cases where I would have
00:34:31.929 --> 00:34:35.929
never deposed a person remotely. And he just
00:34:35.929 --> 00:34:38.630
did great. And the outcomes were great. And he
00:34:38.630 --> 00:34:40.230
got stuff that I don't know that I could have
00:34:40.230 --> 00:34:43.130
gotten in person. So it cuts both ways. But from
00:34:43.130 --> 00:34:46.389
my perspective, under the appropriate circumstances,
00:34:47.319 --> 00:34:51.699
in person is important. And yeah, Adam, to you,
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:54.400
does the deponent who the deponent is factor
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:59.099
into your decision? Yeah, I mean, it's it's so
00:34:59.099 --> 00:35:01.900
it's so infrequent. I really want to do in person.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:05.179
It's so great that we have these diverging opinions
00:35:05.179 --> 00:35:09.460
and perspectives for you all today. But I mean,
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:11.320
the first thing coming to mind again is the exhibits.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:13.639
And it's interesting. And this is I agree with
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:15.719
a lot of anything today, but I disagree on the
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:18.989
expert one because when experts are being deposed,
00:35:19.150 --> 00:35:21.210
they're individuals who have reviewed a ton of
00:35:21.210 --> 00:35:23.889
the file compared to a lot of other witnesses,
00:35:23.969 --> 00:35:27.010
right? And so with any of their opinions, you
00:35:27.010 --> 00:35:29.750
come, you know, they share your expert file with
00:35:29.750 --> 00:35:32.369
you, and it's everything in the case. And if
00:35:32.369 --> 00:35:34.130
there's a lot of documents in the case, which
00:35:34.130 --> 00:35:36.630
a lot of mine do involve, maybe it's more particular
00:35:36.630 --> 00:35:41.409
to that, but They show up and they give them
00:35:41.409 --> 00:35:43.969
their opinions and you ask the question, just
00:35:43.969 --> 00:35:46.250
an example, like, where did you find the evidence
00:35:46.250 --> 00:35:49.670
of this in the file? And they say, oh, well,
00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:51.849
it was in the deposition of this or it was in
00:35:51.849 --> 00:35:54.650
this document or it was in that document. And
00:35:54.650 --> 00:35:56.690
then you can stay in the moment. You can go over
00:35:56.690 --> 00:35:58.170
to your other side of your computer. You can
00:35:58.170 --> 00:36:01.130
pull it up. You can get it. You can get the deposition
00:36:01.130 --> 00:36:03.489
line. You can control F, look for the words.
00:36:03.690 --> 00:36:05.469
You bring it over. You pull it up on the screen.
00:36:05.510 --> 00:36:09.260
You ask the expert right then and there. Okay,
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:13.119
what about this supports your opinion? And that's
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:15.980
massive to me, because their opinions ultimately
00:36:15.980 --> 00:36:19.679
have to flow back to the evidence in the case.
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:22.599
All of the depositions, all of the documents,
00:36:22.619 --> 00:36:26.059
that's where it flows from. And so I get to really
00:36:26.059 --> 00:36:29.699
get granular on the exhibit part of it. So I
00:36:29.699 --> 00:36:33.039
guess the big thing for me is exhibit. I recognize
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:37.159
that there are certain witnesses who credibility
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:39.840
is more important for the outcome of the case
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.539
than other witnesses. And that's a huge consideration
00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:45.679
because how somebody does in person is going
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:49.119
to be different than on Zoom. But the reason
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:51.739
why my preference is still on Zoom is because
00:36:51.739 --> 00:36:55.599
I've had, you know, I had a trial recently where
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:59.440
all the depositions were on Zoom. And I don't
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.380
feel like I really lost the ability to assess
00:37:02.380 --> 00:37:05.739
their credibility. from all those Zoom depositions.
00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:07.360
I don't feel like they were different than what
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:09.719
I thought they would be. What I did think when
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:11.980
I was prepping for the trial was, man, my depositions
00:37:11.980 --> 00:37:13.820
are really good. I know what my case theme is.
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:15.780
I know what I'm going to get. And I was able
00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:18.340
to execute it. And I had really good depositions
00:37:18.340 --> 00:37:22.099
to work with. So that's where my mindset comes
00:37:22.099 --> 00:37:25.380
from is I think I get really good depositions
00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:28.039
online. My preference is that. But the witness,
00:37:28.179 --> 00:37:29.980
they don't have a lot of exhibits attached to
00:37:29.980 --> 00:37:34.119
them. Then I would consider in person. And then
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:38.340
with the remote depositions, now we can record
00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:42.719
them all. Have you ever used a recording of a
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:47.059
deposition at trial? Yes. I have too. But don't
00:37:47.059 --> 00:37:49.800
forget, you can also record live depositions.
00:37:49.820 --> 00:37:53.239
And we do that all the time. We videotape depositions
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:56.039
all the time. And we often play it back. So you
00:37:56.039 --> 00:38:02.710
don't lose that by having it in person. videotape
00:38:02.710 --> 00:38:05.269
or depositions. That's good for two reasons.
00:38:05.349 --> 00:38:08.789
You get the videotape for trial and unruly lawyers,
00:38:08.949 --> 00:38:11.610
lawyers who haven't taken my civility class,
00:38:12.610 --> 00:38:16.090
they calm down considerably when they're on video.
00:38:16.489 --> 00:38:19.030
So it's a good point, Kondo, but it's available
00:38:19.030 --> 00:38:21.989
to both. Yeah, the rules are the same. A recorded,
00:38:21.989 --> 00:38:24.889
a recorded, video recorded deposition is a video
00:38:24.889 --> 00:38:27.570
recorded deposition. So the rules are the same.
00:38:27.630 --> 00:38:30.639
You can do videotapes. A video recorded zoom
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.880
deposition played a trial the same as a in person.
00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:38.219
And then the last question that I have for both
00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:41.900
of you before I move to you know closing it out
00:38:41.900 --> 00:38:46.360
and getting the audience questions is do you
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:50.500
have any ethical issues arise whether you are
00:38:50.500 --> 00:38:53.920
in person or remote? And Adam we can start with
00:38:53.920 --> 00:39:02.300
you. Yeah, I did recently. And it was a deposition
00:39:02.300 --> 00:39:04.800
where the lawyer was in the same room as the
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:09.900
deponent. And I was asking questions, and I thought
00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:12.980
I overheard something in the background. I didn't
00:39:12.980 --> 00:39:16.099
know what that was. And then it happened again.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:18.099
I was like, I think that this lawyer is coaching
00:39:18.099 --> 00:39:21.000
the witness. I do. I didn't want to make that
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:22.940
accusation there. I didn't have the goods yet.
00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:27.860
But I do a lot of video. amateur filmmaker, I
00:39:27.860 --> 00:39:30.480
also make films for my cases and splice together
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:36.960
deposition clips and all this. And so I got ahold
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:40.139
of the video right away and I went to the moments
00:39:40.139 --> 00:39:42.099
where I thought I heard something and I enhanced
00:39:42.099 --> 00:39:44.219
the audio and sure enough, verbatim, the lawyer
00:39:44.219 --> 00:39:47.800
was telling the witness what to say. And that
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:52.409
was just so crazy that that had happened. And
00:39:52.409 --> 00:39:54.670
then you think about times where, and I'm going
00:39:54.670 --> 00:39:56.289
to talk in a little bit, I'm going to get to
00:39:56.289 --> 00:39:59.010
a case that's actually deals with this about
00:39:59.010 --> 00:40:02.210
lawyers not being on camera in a zoom deposition.
00:40:02.289 --> 00:40:05.949
So there is case on this recent to go over, but
00:40:05.949 --> 00:40:09.710
that happened. And, you know, obviously it's
00:40:09.710 --> 00:40:12.849
not going to happen in person with cause you
00:40:12.849 --> 00:40:15.510
can see the lawyer and all that thing, something
00:40:15.510 --> 00:40:17.789
like that isn't going to happen. You might still
00:40:17.789 --> 00:40:19.550
get some witness coaching and things like that
00:40:19.550 --> 00:40:23.190
with objections, but. That was unique to Zoom.
00:40:26.170 --> 00:40:28.869
And Andy, have there been any ethical issues
00:40:28.869 --> 00:40:31.650
that have arisen in prison depositions? There
00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:35.429
always are, but Adam didn't say this, but that
00:40:35.429 --> 00:40:37.230
incident that he just described was a genesis
00:40:37.230 --> 00:40:41.650
for his article. Because I remember it specifically
00:40:41.650 --> 00:40:43.230
because you told me about it, Adam. I wasn't
00:40:43.230 --> 00:40:48.730
there. That kind of stuff happens on Zoom. It
00:40:48.730 --> 00:40:50.369
doesn't happen in person. And that's another
00:40:50.369 --> 00:40:52.449
reason why you want to factor it in. Listen,
00:40:52.469 --> 00:40:56.369
most lawyers aren't dishonest. I've been doing
00:40:56.369 --> 00:40:59.409
this for a long time. And for the most part,
00:40:59.409 --> 00:41:01.150
it's a high quality group of people I've run
00:41:01.150 --> 00:41:04.989
into, both sides of the bar. But occasionally,
00:41:05.010 --> 00:41:06.969
it's going to happen. And it's easier to get
00:41:06.969 --> 00:41:09.769
away with when you're on Zoom than when you're
00:41:09.769 --> 00:41:12.849
in person. And it's never a factor for me that
00:41:12.849 --> 00:41:14.610
I want to do something in person. This is less
00:41:14.610 --> 00:41:16.800
likely the witness is going to be coached. But
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:18.780
on the other hand, if there is someone who wants
00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:21.440
the culture witness, it's easier to do it on
00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:26.400
Zoom than it is in person. Thank you so much.
00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:29.280
And then, Adam, I'd like to pass it off to you
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:32.800
to kind of give your final remarks and summary
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:35.460
of the CLE before we take questions. You want
00:41:35.460 --> 00:41:37.039
to talk about that case, Adam? Yeah, I'm going
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:39.760
to get to that in a second. First, before I get
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.880
to that case, I'm going to go through just a
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:46.639
little refresher of key considerations for whether
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:49.820
to do something, whether to do a deposition,
00:41:51.099 --> 00:41:56.139
Zoom or in person. I talked about it a lot, obviously
00:41:56.139 --> 00:41:58.599
exhibit management, you know, what's the witness
00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:00.780
about, what's your comfort with exhibit management?
00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:03.099
Some people aren't comfortable with Zoom exhibits
00:42:03.099 --> 00:42:07.579
and electronic exhibits. You know, thinking about
00:42:07.579 --> 00:42:10.360
the witness comfort versus having control over
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:12.800
them, things like that, like Andy talked about.
00:42:13.050 --> 00:42:15.829
you know, the witness might be more comfortable
00:42:15.829 --> 00:42:18.710
on Zoom and whether that's good or bad, think
00:42:18.710 --> 00:42:22.210
about that for yourself. If you think it's more
00:42:22.210 --> 00:42:24.289
important to be in person to assess demeanor
00:42:24.289 --> 00:42:26.889
and credibility, which again goes to maybe which
00:42:26.889 --> 00:42:30.449
witnesses this, cost factors, obviously that's
00:42:30.449 --> 00:42:32.030
an easy one. You got to figure out what makes
00:42:32.030 --> 00:42:34.269
sense for where these things are, you know, how
00:42:34.269 --> 00:42:40.039
much it costs to get there. Similarly, the scheduling
00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:42.900
efficiencies and overall workflow, if you can
00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:46.800
just do a Zoom deposition at 10 a .m. on a Monday
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.239
and then also do one at 2 p .m. the same day,
00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:51.780
in the same case, depending on where people are,
00:42:52.059 --> 00:42:54.719
all those types of things you want to consider.
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:58.820
What we talked about, the real -time workflow
00:42:58.820 --> 00:43:02.679
with the outline and notes and things like that.
00:43:03.940 --> 00:43:05.800
Professionalism, rapport with opposing counsel.
00:43:06.860 --> 00:43:09.900
likely end up with a better relationship with
00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:14.119
counsel if you're meeting them in person. Ethical
00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:18.360
concerns, witness coaching, again, deponent type,
00:43:18.860 --> 00:43:22.159
and then really a decision balance with all these,
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:24.280
right? And you figure out what's more important
00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:28.820
for you. Certainly young lawyers should try doing
00:43:28.820 --> 00:43:33.139
more in person. I think perhaps going forward,
00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:37.019
if this CLA has been of any value to you, maybe
00:43:37.019 --> 00:43:39.480
things you hadn't thought about before, maybe,
00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:42.199
and you've been doing primarily Zoom depositions,
00:43:42.300 --> 00:43:44.659
maybe trying in -person deposition is like down
00:43:44.659 --> 00:43:47.019
the road and then think about these issues and
00:43:47.019 --> 00:43:50.500
maybe you've sort of overlooked something. So
00:43:50.500 --> 00:43:52.440
hopefully we've brought some value in that regard,
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:54.820
pointed out some things that maybe you hadn't
00:43:54.820 --> 00:43:56.940
been on top of mind for making your decision
00:43:56.940 --> 00:44:01.460
about doing Zoom versus in -person. In -person
00:44:01.460 --> 00:44:04.159
depositions are a lot closer to a trial. than
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:08.300
a Zoom deposition. So if your hope is to be a
00:44:08.300 --> 00:44:10.139
trial lawyer, and I guess a lot of you who are
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:14.099
attending this webinar do have that hope, you'll
00:44:14.099 --> 00:44:16.800
get a lot better preparation for trial being
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:18.820
in the room with the witness than being on the
00:44:18.820 --> 00:44:20.940
video with the witness. And that's just one of
00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:23.920
the many factors. Like I said, I'm not here to
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:26.179
make the last stand for the baby boomers. This
00:44:26.179 --> 00:44:28.340
is inevitable, and what Adam's doing is great.
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:31.639
But there are other factors that need to be considered.
00:44:32.429 --> 00:44:37.269
One of them is that. So this is a there's two
00:44:37.269 --> 00:44:39.710
thousand and twenty five case. These are Italian
00:44:39.710 --> 00:44:43.710
names, Agnone Contro Agnone versus Agnone. It
00:44:43.710 --> 00:44:46.289
was two thousand twenty five. And the issue was
00:44:46.289 --> 00:44:49.130
there was a lawyer refusing to turn on their
00:44:49.130 --> 00:44:53.289
camera. I can't hear you. And can anyone hear
00:44:53.289 --> 00:44:57.989
me? Can you guys hear me? Yes, I can hear you.
00:44:59.489 --> 00:45:10.400
Sorry. See if we were in person this wouldn't
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:22.179
happen. Can you hear me? Can you hear me now?
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:31.360
Yes, sir. Council is refusing to turn on their
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:36.579
camera during a remote deposition. Now, this
00:45:36.579 --> 00:45:38.260
is important. We're gonna get to a little practice
00:45:38.260 --> 00:45:41.420
point of deposition notice explicitly stated
00:45:41.420 --> 00:45:46.139
counsel must be on camera. The defending attorney
00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:49.500
refused to put on the camera. The noticing attorney
00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:51.940
noted multiple times on the record that the witness
00:45:51.940 --> 00:45:54.840
was looking up before answering, suggesting coaching,
00:45:55.460 --> 00:45:57.260
repeatedly asked the attorney to turn on the
00:45:57.260 --> 00:46:00.380
camera and they did not. The court issued sanctions
00:46:00.380 --> 00:46:03.559
for discovery of use and frustrating the truth
00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:08.280
seeking process. and this Court of Appeal upheld
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:13.500
the discovery sanction. So this is a big case.
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:17.619
Attorneys have their camera on. And I'll get
00:46:17.619 --> 00:46:19.719
to the deposition notice specifically said in
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:23.139
this case. But in case opposing counsel brings
00:46:23.139 --> 00:46:26.500
up, well, what about the California rule of court
00:46:26.500 --> 00:46:30.079
allowing telephonic appearance? Isn't this the
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:33.340
same if I'm off camera? The Court of Appeal addressed
00:46:33.340 --> 00:46:36.659
that. Contrary to their contention, the rule
00:46:36.659 --> 00:46:39.679
cannot be read as a blanket authorization for
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:43.400
a deponist attorney to participate by audio only
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:46.000
means. While physically present with this client
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:49.320
under circumstance with the attorney could surreptitiously
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.639
coach the deponement outside opposing counsel
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:55.280
view. So if you're dealing with this, just know
00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:59.440
that this case addresses that potential counterpoint.
00:47:00.179 --> 00:47:06.789
So getting to sort of the practice point, The
00:47:06.789 --> 00:47:11.829
notice language in Agnone specified it was going
00:47:11.829 --> 00:47:16.429
to be by Zoom and stated that the witness, the
00:47:16.429 --> 00:47:18.889
deponent, and their counsel shall participate
00:47:18.889 --> 00:47:22.829
using their own computer equipped with the webcam
00:47:22.829 --> 00:47:26.050
and with the stable landline wired ethernet connection
00:47:26.050 --> 00:47:28.010
to the internet. This latter part I don't know
00:47:28.010 --> 00:47:33.090
about, but just having in the notice that the
00:47:33.090 --> 00:47:37.650
attorney should appear in their own camera. I
00:47:37.650 --> 00:47:39.289
think should be an all notices going forward
00:47:39.289 --> 00:47:44.989
for zoom. And I think that, you know, I think
00:47:44.989 --> 00:47:46.670
that there could still be changes that would
00:47:46.670 --> 00:47:49.170
be better going forward with rules of court.
00:47:49.510 --> 00:47:51.750
This stuff needs to make it into rules of court.
00:47:52.110 --> 00:47:53.889
Eventually it's not there yet. It's just in that
00:47:53.889 --> 00:47:56.030
case. But I think that there's there are actually
00:47:56.030 --> 00:47:58.369
some counties that are trying to adopt these
00:47:58.369 --> 00:48:00.780
rules of court. I think it does need to. does
00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:03.480
need to happen and people that are in charge
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:05.300
of those things. I don't know who does those
00:48:05.300 --> 00:48:07.099
things, but get these rules of court related
00:48:07.099 --> 00:48:09.599
to zoom depositions so that we can have some
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:12.360
guidance and clarity on what's appropriate conduct
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.619
with simple things such as whether or not a webcam
00:48:14.619 --> 00:48:17.920
is on. I think that counsel should not be allowed
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:21.639
to be in the same room with the deponent. I think
00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:23.480
that they should have to be in a separate room.
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:26.440
You know, but people smarter than me should think
00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:28.610
about that. You know, do you have Do you have
00:48:28.610 --> 00:48:30.369
a right to counsel this president in the room
00:48:30.369 --> 00:48:32.769
with you during anything? I don't know the implications
00:48:32.769 --> 00:48:35.409
there. You know, there's all kinds of stuff.
00:48:35.610 --> 00:48:37.429
You want your client to be deposed when you're
00:48:37.429 --> 00:48:40.030
not in the room with him or her? I mean, I do
00:48:40.030 --> 00:48:45.909
it now. Yeah, I absolutely. OK. You know, I understand.
00:48:46.409 --> 00:48:50.530
Yeah. So I think from my perspective, I think
00:48:50.530 --> 00:48:52.230
that my client would feel more comfortable if
00:48:52.230 --> 00:48:56.909
I was sitting next to him or her. But. Yeah.
00:48:58.550 --> 00:49:01.570
Anyway, that was an important case. Think about
00:49:01.570 --> 00:49:06.230
that language for your next Zoom notice. Awesome.
00:49:07.010 --> 00:49:09.409
So we want to be mindful of everyone's time.
00:49:09.510 --> 00:49:12.530
We have about 10 minutes left for questions.
00:49:14.070 --> 00:49:17.929
So the first question is, for newer attorneys
00:49:17.929 --> 00:49:23.170
like myself, do either of you just have any general
00:49:23.170 --> 00:49:27.750
advice in considering when to take a deposition
00:49:27.750 --> 00:49:32.130
remotely versus in person. Just any advice for
00:49:32.130 --> 00:49:34.170
like preparing and things like that for newer
00:49:34.170 --> 00:49:37.849
attorneys that didn't experience the world before
00:49:37.849 --> 00:49:41.610
Zoom depositions took over in Zoom court hearings.
00:49:42.510 --> 00:49:44.789
So, Adam, we can start with you. Yeah, I mean,
00:49:44.789 --> 00:49:46.889
I think, you know, we've been talking about the
00:49:46.889 --> 00:49:48.789
value for a younger attorney to do in person,
00:49:48.829 --> 00:49:51.429
but also try both, you know, check them out.
00:49:51.449 --> 00:49:54.860
I think that What might happen for people is
00:49:54.860 --> 00:50:00.400
ultimately they establish their preference personally.
00:50:01.539 --> 00:50:04.039
But with that, they should always carry forward
00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:07.159
being mindful that their way is not the only
00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:10.940
way. So I think that for younger attorneys, you
00:50:10.940 --> 00:50:15.340
should prep and do both. You should try the in
00:50:15.340 --> 00:50:18.579
-person for the reasons we talked about. And
00:50:18.579 --> 00:50:21.039
also do zoom depositions because you might find
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.679
that you're doing a better deposition on zoom
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:26.679
for whatever reason for you. However, it works
00:50:26.679 --> 00:50:31.500
So try them both but definitely yeah I think
00:50:31.500 --> 00:50:33.260
and my answer to that question would just be
00:50:33.260 --> 00:50:34.820
it's what we've been talking about. I mean, there's
00:50:34.820 --> 00:50:37.360
a million factors that go into it Who's the witness?
00:50:37.420 --> 00:50:39.920
How far is the witness? How important is the
00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:42.079
witness? There's something to be gained from
00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:44.699
taking the in -person depot if you've never taken
00:50:44.699 --> 00:50:46.940
one before and likewise there's something to
00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:49.179
be gained from taking a Zoom depot if you've
00:50:49.179 --> 00:50:51.519
never taken that before. I mean, I learned all
00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:53.880
this stuff late in my career. I didn't really
00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:58.159
like it, but I learned it. And, you know, and
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:00.639
Adam's proved that it can be extremely effective.
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:06.619
I agree. And I think that what's nice is that
00:51:06.619 --> 00:51:10.340
both of you have experienced in -person and Zoom
00:51:10.340 --> 00:51:13.440
depositions and were able to make those strategic
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:16.019
decisions to determine what works best for you
00:51:16.019 --> 00:51:18.800
guys. And so I think that's something that newer
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:22.760
attorneys can learn from and to kind of possibly
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:26.500
see a hybrid situation in the future. From the
00:51:26.500 --> 00:51:29.639
audience, Erica Williams is asking, how do you
00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:32.539
make the determination to take video recordings
00:51:32.539 --> 00:51:36.139
of your deposition? Or rather, What factors do
00:51:36.139 --> 00:51:38.900
you consider when making the determination to
00:51:38.900 --> 00:51:43.380
video record? Adam? Well, I guess with my practice
00:51:43.380 --> 00:51:46.500
now, I video record them all. So it's just my
00:51:46.500 --> 00:51:51.920
default. I like having the video clip for a number
00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:54.159
of reasons. Like I mentioned, I do a bit of filmmaking.
00:51:54.699 --> 00:51:58.519
So having a video clip of a deponent saying something
00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:00.719
that I can splice into something. But I know
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:02.500
that that's not everyone does those types of
00:52:02.500 --> 00:52:06.000
things. But I think ultimately, if you're going
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:12.719
to use it at trial, a transcript, it's better
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:16.739
presentation to play the video of the person
00:52:16.739 --> 00:52:19.500
saying something inconsistent if it's an impeachment.
00:52:20.219 --> 00:52:24.099
If it's a party, then you can play their deposition.
00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:26.500
Essentially, you can state their deposition or
00:52:26.500 --> 00:52:28.480
play their deposition basically anytime throughout
00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:32.269
your trial. And obviously, seeing the person
00:52:32.269 --> 00:52:34.269
saying it from their own mouth as opposed to
00:52:34.269 --> 00:52:36.929
a lawyer rereading it, I think is more effective.
00:52:37.050 --> 00:52:40.590
So my default is to video record. But in terms
00:52:40.590 --> 00:52:43.309
of factors, you know, costs, it's going to cost
00:52:43.309 --> 00:52:46.809
a little more. So does it justify it in the case?
00:52:48.349 --> 00:52:50.289
Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, it's obviously
00:52:50.289 --> 00:52:52.929
cost. If you can afford it and the case is worth
00:52:52.929 --> 00:52:54.769
it, you should spend the money to do it. It's
00:52:54.769 --> 00:52:56.690
always better to have a video than just a just
00:52:56.690 --> 00:53:01.840
a straight record. And then Robert Arnoff asked,
00:53:02.219 --> 00:53:04.679
what are the rules and strategies when you and
00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:10.280
your opponent differ on Zoom or in -person? Yeah,
00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:12.599
my understanding is the noticing attorney gets
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:14.559
to set what they want and that you are allowed
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:17.699
to notice a deposition by remote means. I've
00:53:17.699 --> 00:53:21.920
never had pushback on that. of noticing it remotely
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:25.039
and then insisting on in -person or someone noticing
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:27.920
it for in -person and resisting that it be remote.
00:53:28.300 --> 00:53:31.300
But what can happen is if people can't make it
00:53:31.300 --> 00:53:32.980
in -person, it's noticed for in -person, then
00:53:32.980 --> 00:53:35.800
there's other means that they can appear. So
00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:40.440
there's the telephonic appearance. I've also
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:47.960
had the ability to... I've had in -person depositions
00:53:47.960 --> 00:53:53.280
where they set up the zoom Capabilities and sometimes
00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:57.019
that can be the court reporting service Or it
00:53:57.019 --> 00:54:00.800
can be working with opposing counsel Depending
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:03.360
on how they're gonna take the deposition For
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:06.599
example, I had counsel notice in person and it
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:09.079
was far away from where I was he was living near
00:54:09.079 --> 00:54:11.780
he lived near where the deponent was and he agreed
00:54:11.780 --> 00:54:15.599
to have Him on a laptop and the other person
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:18.039
on a laptop there in the same room all the other
00:54:18.039 --> 00:54:20.750
lawyers were on zoom he was in the room with
00:54:20.750 --> 00:54:23.690
the deponent and we were all appearing remotely
00:54:23.690 --> 00:54:31.769
by zoom and uh shannon burns is asking in zoom
00:54:31.769 --> 00:54:35.050
depots how do you determine whether or not the
00:54:35.050 --> 00:54:38.150
deponent has a cheat sheet or is looking at documents
00:54:38.150 --> 00:54:41.750
outside the video to help in responding to potential
00:54:41.750 --> 00:54:44.369
questions so this kind of goes to the witness
00:54:44.369 --> 00:54:50.380
coaching i think yeah um so i Given admonition
00:54:50.380 --> 00:54:52.800
part of my admonitions, you know, there's the
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:56.059
deposition admonitions that you give you know,
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:59.039
don't guess you know We're entitled to the best
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:02.159
estimate recording rules all that I also give
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:05.260
the admonition that they are not to refer to
00:55:05.260 --> 00:55:09.940
or review any documents off -screen and that
00:55:09.940 --> 00:55:13.739
we may ask at any point to view what's in the
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:17.300
room and See what's there if there is a document
00:55:17.300 --> 00:55:21.119
in the room then you should turn it over if you
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:25.300
need to refer to it or look at it later on. You
00:55:25.300 --> 00:55:28.599
can let us know, but we are entitled to your
00:55:28.599 --> 00:55:31.780
testimony from what you recall, not from reviewing
00:55:31.780 --> 00:55:38.440
any document. Now, you can't fully enforce that.
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:42.519
There could be things off camera. And I have
00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:45.440
heard one of the judges that reached out after
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:47.960
the article came out told me a story about how
00:55:48.250 --> 00:55:53.389
you know the the person like bumped the laptop
00:55:53.389 --> 00:55:59.150
and it knocked it and then saw like a giant whiteboard
00:55:59.150 --> 00:56:02.289
with like the bullet points for the deponent
00:56:02.289 --> 00:56:07.050
to make during the depot and then they're like
00:56:07.050 --> 00:56:10.730
ma 'am can you turn that thing around and it
00:56:10.730 --> 00:56:13.969
was like a war room with all this stuff up there
00:56:13.969 --> 00:56:17.960
so I I just gave an admonition at the beginning.
00:56:18.179 --> 00:56:19.699
It's just that, you know, it's the best you can
00:56:19.699 --> 00:56:22.800
do. And it's a risk associated with doing a Zoom
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:25.539
deposition, I acknowledge. And you gotta remember
00:56:25.539 --> 00:56:27.760
this, they were all court officers. At least
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:29.639
that's what I was told I was when I was sworn
00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:32.539
into the bar a while ago. And we have to have
00:56:32.539 --> 00:56:36.159
our integrity. And, you know, you can't suspect
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:38.300
everybody's gonna be dishonest. I sort of make
00:56:38.300 --> 00:56:41.460
the other presumption. And that people are going
00:56:41.460 --> 00:56:43.679
to be honest and have integrity. It's not always
00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:46.739
the case, but for the most part, it is. And if
00:56:46.739 --> 00:56:48.559
things like that happen, they're going to happen.
00:56:48.579 --> 00:56:50.579
And they're going to happen both in remote and
00:56:50.579 --> 00:56:54.219
in -person depots as well. Sometimes kind of
00:56:54.219 --> 00:56:56.340
depending. I will say you may be subject to sanctions
00:56:56.340 --> 00:57:00.800
if we learn that you're using an aid. But it's
00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:02.659
not standard for me. Maybe I'll make it standard.
00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:05.099
I don't know. It kind of depends on how the case
00:57:05.099 --> 00:57:10.230
has been going. And David Azar asked if you have
00:57:10.230 --> 00:57:13.449
used electronic exhibits with screens for an
00:57:13.449 --> 00:57:16.150
in -person deposition, and his impression is
00:57:16.150 --> 00:57:18.250
that some live exhibit companies have that as
00:57:18.250 --> 00:57:21.969
an option. Have you guys ever done that? All
00:57:21.969 --> 00:57:24.170
the time, like just playing on a TV, I assume,
00:57:24.550 --> 00:57:27.510
yeah, or on a laptop. All the time in person,
00:57:28.070 --> 00:57:30.769
yeah. You know, we have a TV in our conference
00:57:30.769 --> 00:57:34.679
room. and can load some things up because we
00:57:34.679 --> 00:57:37.780
have access to our computer database on our TV
00:57:37.780 --> 00:57:41.420
screen. And so I'll put it up there. Or you can
00:57:41.420 --> 00:57:46.719
have it on your laptop or something and show
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:52.980
it. And that comes up. Sometimes you're trying
00:57:52.980 --> 00:57:55.760
to drill down on where on a map or something
00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:58.920
it occurred, where they were standing at a scene.
00:57:59.619 --> 00:58:02.849
And on Zoom, What I do is I just, I'll share
00:58:02.849 --> 00:58:04.969
screen, pull up Google Maps, go to the scene
00:58:04.969 --> 00:58:07.590
and I'll click around and I'll kind of talk through
00:58:07.590 --> 00:58:09.769
narrate for the record and say, okay, I want
00:58:09.769 --> 00:58:11.909
to drill down to where you're standing. And they're
00:58:11.909 --> 00:58:13.670
like, okay, we're on this corner. No, that corner.
00:58:13.829 --> 00:58:17.590
No. And then they give me the corner. I'll screenshot
00:58:17.590 --> 00:58:23.710
it. Save that screenshot as a, as a document
00:58:23.710 --> 00:58:28.530
PDF or make that an exhibit and then load it
00:58:28.530 --> 00:58:31.599
up. And in person. might do something similar
00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:34.960
with the TV conference room, where I have Google
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:37.360
Maps up and I'm scrolling around, tell me when
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:39.920
I get to where you are, and then you screenshot
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:44.500
it, and then you send that to a printer, print
00:58:44.500 --> 00:58:47.719
that out, and make it an exhibit. It becomes
00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:49.440
difficult when you're having this electronic
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:51.760
stuff that's also, I mean, depending on which
00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:56.170
file it is, but that's just an example. And then
00:58:56.170 --> 00:59:01.389
the last question before we hit 130 is from RJ
00:59:01.389 --> 00:59:04.570
Hendrix. How do you deal with a situation where,
00:59:04.789 --> 00:59:07.590
in a remote deposition, the witness produces
00:59:07.590 --> 00:59:13.389
additional documents? You always find a way to
00:59:13.389 --> 00:59:17.849
get it. It happens. If they have a lawyer, the
00:59:17.849 --> 00:59:23.789
lawyer will make do. They'll scan it. I've always
00:59:23.789 --> 00:59:27.039
ended up when that happens, being able to get
00:59:27.039 --> 00:59:29.880
a digital copy of it and emails and make it a
00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:33.380
part of the record. I suppose if it's someone
00:59:33.380 --> 00:59:35.760
who doesn't have fully those capabilities, it
00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:39.719
just would figure it out, make a way to set those
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:42.639
aside. We can recess the deposition and get the
00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:44.500
documents and come back some other day. That's
00:59:44.500 --> 00:59:48.159
not a problem. Yeah, you just I've typically
00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:52.860
had the witness with a counsel. It's often with
00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:54.719
counsel and counsel will get you the documents.
00:59:55.960 --> 00:59:59.280
I've also seen like with PMQs where when you
00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:02.920
ask what documents have you reviewed in preparation
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:06.380
and they give it to you right there. I've seen
01:00:06.380 --> 01:00:08.099
where attorneys have been like, let's take a
01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:10.980
10 minute break so I can review this and then
01:00:10.980 --> 01:00:13.139
move along. And that's something that's advantageous
01:00:13.139 --> 01:00:15.659
in zoom depositions. because you can quickly
01:00:15.659 --> 01:00:18.059
kind of go back and forth and add that later
01:00:18.059 --> 01:00:21.420
on to your outline as well. And I believe we're
01:00:21.420 --> 01:00:25.880
at the 1 .30 mark. I'm sure people would like
01:00:25.880 --> 01:00:27.980
to leave if they could, but we have some more
01:00:27.980 --> 01:00:30.579
questions. I don't know, Adam and Andy, if you
01:00:30.579 --> 01:00:34.179
would like to answer now or if you would like
01:00:34.179 --> 01:00:35.099
to make a challenge. I've got a couple more minutes.
01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:37.380
Couple more minutes. Couple more minutes if people
01:00:37.380 --> 01:00:39.519
want to stay, but if not, you're taking off.
01:00:39.739 --> 01:00:41.639
Thank you for appearing. Hopefully this was a
01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:44.099
value to you and your consideration of doing
01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:48.519
zoom or in person. Yeah, thanks for coming. So
01:00:48.519 --> 01:00:51.300
much OK, so then as people are leaving, I'll
01:00:51.300 --> 01:00:55.900
ask some more questions to you guys. One person
01:00:55.900 --> 01:00:59.059
James Warren asked, do you ask a deponent if
01:00:59.059 --> 01:01:02.059
they have any other electronic devices present
01:01:02.059 --> 01:01:08.440
during the zoom deposition? I have not. No, I
01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:13.980
think I have not asked that. Would bringing a
01:01:13.980 --> 01:01:17.059
thumb drive this from John Holly, would bringing
01:01:17.059 --> 01:01:19.619
a thumb drive with exhibits be efficient in an
01:01:19.619 --> 01:01:23.519
in -person depot? Sure. Yeah, we get that. You
01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:27.659
get that a lot. I've had certainly expert witnesses.
01:01:28.860 --> 01:01:31.960
They show up. You know, used to be kind of they're
01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:34.650
showing up with. Well, now they have to reduce
01:01:34.650 --> 01:01:38.170
their files to a certain number of days. Yeah,
01:01:38.289 --> 01:01:45.849
the three -day rule, that's good. You can bring
01:01:45.849 --> 01:01:50.949
a thumb drive with documents. If you're asked,
01:01:51.070 --> 01:01:55.619
the depo notice asks for documents. Stuart Wolf
01:01:55.619 --> 01:01:58.539
asked, how do the rules work about recording
01:01:58.539 --> 01:02:01.000
a Zoom deposition? The general rule in California
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:04.380
is you can't video or audio record without consent.
01:02:06.500 --> 01:02:09.559
You notice it saying it's going to be video recorded
01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:11.599
and then in the beginning the people it says
01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:14.340
the at the top says this meeting is being recorded
01:02:14.340 --> 01:02:17.360
and everyone has to click OK. So that's the consent.
01:02:19.820 --> 01:02:23.840
And Cedar Boshua. Apologies if I mispronounced
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:27.119
that. This was more on the line of the question
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:29.699
that we had earlier about whether deponent factors
01:02:29.699 --> 01:02:33.059
into your decision. Cedar asked, how does the
01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:35.460
question of in -person versus virtual depositions
01:02:35.460 --> 01:02:38.119
apply to expert depositions? And what should
01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:42.460
experts consider? Well, I think we talked about
01:02:42.460 --> 01:02:45.980
that already. I mean, I prefer to depose experts
01:02:45.980 --> 01:02:48.920
in person because you really get a feel for who
01:02:48.920 --> 01:02:52.659
they are. And you get there, in state court at
01:02:52.659 --> 01:02:55.360
least, you get your files 72 hours in advance.
01:02:55.500 --> 01:03:02.199
I think maybe 48. I forget the rule. And in California,
01:03:02.219 --> 01:03:06.400
they have to come to you. In federal court, you've
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:10.059
got to go to them. So that's an issue. But I
01:03:10.059 --> 01:03:11.860
just refer in person in general and for experts
01:03:11.860 --> 01:03:14.579
in particular. But that's just my preference.
01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:19.039
And I think Adam has a different one. Yeah, I
01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:21.420
mean I got it's just like those documents all
01:03:21.420 --> 01:03:24.900
these experts are gonna have like refer to some
01:03:24.900 --> 01:03:28.340
Some minute fact that is a foundation for something
01:03:28.340 --> 01:03:31.400
they're trying to use to crush your case I want
01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:33.980
to make sure that I can drill down on that fact
01:03:33.980 --> 01:03:36.300
so then when they hit the stand I'm like prepared
01:03:36.300 --> 01:03:39.920
to just Know what's coming because ultimately
01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:41.960
they can get up there and say what they want,
01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:44.489
but I think the jury understands when you rein
01:03:44.489 --> 01:03:47.130
everything back in and the foundation of what
01:03:47.130 --> 01:03:50.349
they said that is so good for their side is weak.
01:03:50.769 --> 01:03:53.510
And you've really, a deposition to me is discovery.
01:03:54.010 --> 01:03:56.150
You're discovering what the, and then with an
01:03:56.150 --> 01:03:58.150
expert, you're discovering what their opinions
01:03:58.150 --> 01:04:00.570
are and what they're based on. The best way to
01:04:00.570 --> 01:04:04.030
test that I think is being prepared to get into
01:04:04.030 --> 01:04:10.320
the documents. That's great. Okay. Another question
01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:13.099
kind of on the topic of comfortability of the
01:04:13.099 --> 01:04:18.059
deponent. Does that matter to either of you about
01:04:18.059 --> 01:04:21.239
how comfortable the opponent is during the deposition?
01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:26.280
Yeah, some people like them comfortable. Some
01:04:26.280 --> 01:04:29.280
people don't like them comfortable. It's a matter
01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:33.119
of personal preference. And I find that they're
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:35.199
often less comfortable when they're in person.
01:04:35.739 --> 01:04:38.440
than not, but some people prefer to have the
01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:42.119
witness more comfortable than others. Yeah, I
01:04:42.119 --> 01:04:45.400
think it's interesting. Andy and I both see one
01:04:45.400 --> 01:04:47.619
aspect of this the same, that the witness is
01:04:47.619 --> 01:04:51.039
more likely to be comfortable on Zoom than in
01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:53.119
person. They're likely to be uncomfortable in
01:04:53.119 --> 01:04:56.900
person. But we see it differently about how that
01:04:56.900 --> 01:04:59.840
plays out, what that means to us, because Andy
01:04:59.840 --> 01:05:02.539
prefers the in -person witness being a little
01:05:02.539 --> 01:05:05.869
uncomfortable and seizing on that. assessing
01:05:05.869 --> 01:05:08.269
them out and all that. And I think that what
01:05:08.269 --> 01:05:11.769
I've seen since I've started doing the Zoom depositions
01:05:11.769 --> 01:05:14.050
is these witnesses super comfortable just give
01:05:14.050 --> 01:05:16.750
up the goods. They just don't, they're not on
01:05:16.750 --> 01:05:21.030
guard and they slip. They're not thinking. They
01:05:21.030 --> 01:05:23.550
say ridiculous things because they're on Zoom
01:05:23.550 --> 01:05:27.989
in their own room. And I've liked that. And so
01:05:27.989 --> 01:05:30.489
we kind of, we agree that they're probably more
01:05:30.489 --> 01:05:33.489
comfortable on Zoom. And you have to figure out
01:05:33.489 --> 01:05:35.429
a thing with your practice. And also that's a
01:05:35.429 --> 01:05:37.769
style thing. Andy has a much different style
01:05:37.769 --> 01:05:40.710
with how he would do every trial than my style
01:05:40.710 --> 01:05:45.349
with all of my trials. Andy is stylistic. It's
01:05:45.349 --> 01:05:48.909
personal. I see how when Andy talks about how
01:05:48.909 --> 01:05:51.010
he likes to witness uncomfortable and ask him
01:05:51.010 --> 01:05:54.969
questions, how that's for Andy. But I also see
01:05:54.969 --> 01:05:57.510
like who I am and my vibe and what I like to
01:05:57.510 --> 01:06:00.329
do and how I approach people and converse and
01:06:00.329 --> 01:06:03.519
all that. that the Zoom comfort person for the
01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:08.739
witness is my style. I think we're sort of at
01:06:08.739 --> 01:06:11.119
the end of our time limit here, Kondo. Yeah,
01:06:11.320 --> 01:06:16.880
definitely. Thank you guys so much for speaking
01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:19.920
and answering all of our questions. There's a
01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:22.940
few questions left over, but I'm sure we can
01:06:22.940 --> 01:06:26.260
find a way to get us all connected. Yeah, our
01:06:26.260 --> 01:06:31.380
email address is available to the... Participants?
01:06:31.699 --> 01:06:34.420
There must be. I'm sure there are. I'm sure we
01:06:34.420 --> 01:06:39.880
can make it so. Is anyone going to come on and
01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:43.860
sign us out? All righty. This concludes today's
01:06:43.860 --> 01:06:46.400
presentation. Thank you so much Condo Adam and
01:06:46.400 --> 01:06:49.059
Andy for joining us today and educating our members.
01:06:49.219 --> 01:06:51.239
And thank you so much to our audience. Have a
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:54.320
great day, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Have
01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:55.019
a great day.