Negotiation Guru: Prof. Carolyn Goerner on the Lifelong Learning of Influence & Empathy

Prof. Carolyn Goerner is a leadership and development expert and negotiation guru at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business.

Prof. Goerner suggests approaching conversations with a sense of curiosity. By being genuinely interested in people’s needs and perspectives rather than solely focusing on our agenda, we can create a more collaborative and less adversarial environment.

Prof. Goerner emphasizes that authentic leadership requires ongoing learning and empathy, especially in understanding others' perspectives and needs. This empathy extends into negotiations, where it's crucial to balance our needs with those of others to maintain long-term, positive relationships.

In a fast-paced world often dominated by transactions, Prof. Goerner advocates for authenticity. Simple gestures like offering sincere compliments or asking thoughtful questions can transform interactions from empty exchanges into meaningful connections.

Listen to the episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast platform to learn how to become an authentic and emotionally engaging leader.

Subscribe to Pity Party Over for more insightful episodes. Questions? Email Stephen Matini or send him a message on LinkedIn.

TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: So Miss Caroline, welcome to Pity Party Over! 

Carolyn Goerner: That’s delightful to be here, Stephen. Thank you.

Stephen Matini: It’s my joy. I've been waiting for months for this moment. I'm very, very happy. So listen, the first question that I have is the following and it comes straight from your LinkedIn profile. The first thing that I read is, “Leaders are learners.” So, which is pretty fabulous. It's very short to the point, but I would like to know why you chose that. 

Carolyn Goerner: Well, honestly, there's a couple of reasons. The first is that leadership, I don't think, is something that you wake up and you say, I've mastered it. It instead is something that we try to get a little bit better at every day.

And so for me, the idea that I don't need any more leadership insight, I don't need any more leadership training, that's just silly. We all do. Nobody ever reaches the point where they're done, right?

And then second, I think there's also this point about, if I'm really going to be a good leader, I've got to figure out my context and I've got to figure out my followers.

And so I've also got a learning curve around developing empathy for people, making sure that I'm really seeing things from multiple perspectives. And that's a really big piece of it too. So I think people absolutely need to continue to learn about leadership, but then they also need to learn about the people in the context.

Stephen Matini: And how did you get into the whole world of negotiation, power, personal influence?

Carolyn Goerner: It's interesting. John Lennon said life is what happens when you're making other plans. And that sort of is how my career trajectory went. I actually did my undergraduate degrees in philosophy and religion and went through college on a debate scholarship.

So was just not really thinking about professionally what I might do. And I kind of stumbled my way into consulting. And then when I burned out on that, decided I was going to go to graduate school. And my parents are professors of communication. So I went to get my master's degree in rhetoric and communication.

So all of that persuasion, influential language really was something I was interested in. But what I very quickly realized is that I am so glad there are people who do that study, but I didn't, it wasn't me.

So I did my PhD in Management and Human Resources, and this is really the intersection of all of that coming together. It's my fascination with how we use language and how language affects people, also coupled with really interesting studies in organizational dynamics and organizational politics and how all that plays together.

Stephen Matini: Was it an advantage or disadvantage to have two parents who focused on communication growing up?

Carolyn Goerner: I think it was definitely an advantage, but I'm blessed to still have my parents living. And my goodness, they are two of my very favorite people. I think it was not the kind of thing where we always sat and scrutinized everybody, but instead there was a lot of very healthy, okay, you need to tell me about that. So I suppose it was a little bit like having parents who are psychologists being very conscious of having good, healthy conversations.

Stephen Matini: Because your parents have been such an ... they are an important figure in your life. If they were here with us and I said to them, hey, what is the secret of communication? What would they say in your opinion? 

Carolyn Goerner: Empathy. That's what they have taught me. And that's absolutely what I've seen them do with other folks. It's not about me and it's not about whether or not I'm right. It's about whether or not I'm connecting with the other person.

And so true communication really comes down to figuring out what the other party is all about and how I can then be a part of the conversation with them in ways that they can understand.

One of my favorite local leaders was a gentleman who was representative in Congress for my state for a long time. And he made a comment when he was talking to one of my classes that leaders are supposed to make everyone else in the room comfortable. And I thought, well, do you have to agree with them? That seems a little pandering and silly.

And he said, no, my job is not to agree, but I need to make a space where it's comfortable for them to express what they're thinking, and it's comfortable for us to disagree without someone getting defensive.

And that just really stayed with me. And it's very consistent with my parents' advice as well, that in order to make good communication happen, you kind of need to get out of your own way.

Stephen Matini: Have you ever worked with a client, could be, you know, one-on-one with a team that somehow you noticed they really did not have that at all. They seem not to have that ability, that social awareness. 

Carolyn Goerner: Yes. Where I see it a lot is when folks are coming from a technical background and they are making a proposal and they have worked so hard on the data. They have run their numbers 74 times. They have absolutely convinced themselves that this is the way to go.

And so they get in front of the decision maker and all they do is discuss all of the reasons why they, the presenter, are convinced. They haven't taken into account anything that the other person might need to hear or how they might need to make the decision. Instead, they're just all in on convincing people that they're right. And that's the thing I see the most often. And I grind when you ask the question because it's actually very typical.

I'm lucky enough to work with people who are really smart and really know what they're doing. And the issue is not that they can't justify or find data to justify what they're asking for. It's just the way in which they go about asking that gets them into trouble.

Stephen Matini: The thing is a lot of people, particularly around the whole notion of conflict, confrontation, negotiation, they really have a lot of issues, you know, including myself. Like I've learned it to be comfortable, but I used to feel, oh my God, awful about it. Particularly when I was younger, like I would get this block in my throat. I couldn't even speak. So a lot of people, People have all kinds of things like, you know, fear rejections. Also, there are, you know, cultural factors, social factors that come into place. What would you say that is the first thing, the first step to make peace with this so that negotiation is not so scary? What would you do? 

Carolyn Goerner: My first piece of advice is get curious. Start figuring out what it is that the other person is asking, where they might be coming from.

There's this interesting thing that psychologists call the spotlight effect. And basically what it means is that if I'm feeling uncomfortable, I feel like there's a spotlight shining on me. And it's almost paralyzing, right? I can't move. I'm just hyper-focused on myself. And I feel like everybody else is hyper-focused on me too. And it's really paralyzing. And it's funny that you say the neck thing. My neck actually gets red when that happens.

So I totally feel where you're coming from because you'll see the color just kind of start to move up into my face.

And so the way around that is to do something that two folks who study negotiations, Yuri and Fisher, who wrote the book, Getting to Yes they call it going to the balcony. And it's the idea that I am somehow going to step back emotionally from the conversation and watch it and watch it unfold and see what I can learn from everything that's going on.

And so it's trying to develop a genuine curiosity about where the other person is coming from. And the interesting thing about that is that the minute that I turn my attention on someone else, that spotlight effect starts to minimize.

So I always tell people, like for example, if you hate networking, go find someone who looks more uncomfortable than you are and be with them. Because the idea that you're focusing on someone else besides yourself can really help lessen that tension.

Stephen Matini: Is this the basis of what you say is empathetic negotiation? 

Carolyn Goerner: Absolutely, yes. The whole notion of empathetic negotiation is I need to come in and not just be focused on what I want, but I also need to make sure that the deal allows the other person to walk away feeling good. And that may sound counterintuitive, but you know the times where we're just worried about price and we're never going to see each other again, that happens.

You know haggling on the street, it happens when you're maybe buying a car or a moped or something. But it's not necessarily the way that most of our negotiations happen. Usually we'll make a deal and then we have to implement it together.

And so the key is, can I understand what this deal means to you as well as to me so that when we're doing the implementation, there's no surprises. And you're not suddenly having buyers or sellers remorse and trying to sabotage the deal or we haven't thought of something.

There's still a bridge for us to get back together and figure it out. And so the point of the empathic negotiation piece is that we're really not talking about a negotiation or a conflict resolution as a one-time thing. We're talking about it in the context of a larger relationship. And the focus is really on maintaining the larger and longer relationship.

Stephen Matini: What do you do when you get the sense that the other part, your counterpart, doesn't care?

Carolyn Goerner: That's the perfect question because that's the downside. And there are a couple of things that you hopefully will have the opportunity to do. The first is just to kind of, for lack of a better phrase, call it out. So you seem really focused on the outcome here and you know not to really care what that means to me. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Why is this so important to you?

And sometimes just the direct question will be enough for people to say, oh, it's often the case that someone can be perceived as really being aggressive and really coming in to fight for something. And the reality is they're just scared. You know, they're just reacting defensively or they're coming across in a way that is not what they intend. So that question can call that out if it happens.

It can also be the case that especially if you've put yourself in a situation where you're asking questions, you're really trying, and the other person isn't reciprocating, you can very honestly say, you know, I'm trying to do something here that's going to work for both of us.

And if that's not something that you're interested in, maybe we shouldn't be talking. And it's not the threat to walk away, but it's legitimately, man, no. You know I just don't want to do business with this person. And so that's where having alternatives become so important. Making sure that when I go into a conversation, I've thought about what I'll do if this doesn't work out.

So if I go into this conversation with this person, what happens if it doesn't work? And knowing what that alternative is for me is a real source of power because it tells me, all right, if I can't get something better than my walkaway alternative, well, I don't have to be here, right?

The other question, and this one's harder. This is especially hard for entrepreneurs or people who are just kind of starting out their business, is asking yourself, is this going to be a client that I want to keep long term? And of course, generally the first answer is, well, yes, I need the money.

But when we really start to think about it, is this the kind of person that you want to be making money with? And so it's kind of the opportunity cost question. What am I giving up by working with this person? Maybe the perfect client is still out there and I can wait for them. Now, again, that's the best possible world. And the real world is more pragmatic than that. I need to keep the lights on and pay the bills.

But the idea is to really look at the other person in a longer-term perspective. And so, you know it's much like they say when you're dating, for example, can I see myself trapped in an airport with this person? You know. That's going to happen, trust me. And so it's that kind of thought, right? How am I going to feel a year from now when the phone rings and I look down and that's who's on my screen? How am I going to feel?

And so that, you know again, that's a tough question. And so oftentimes people will say, if I've paced with someone who's really being aggressive, I am actually going to respond in a way in kind. I'm not going to offer them as much. If we do make a deal, I'm going to make sure it's pretty limited and it has parameters around it. Or maybe I make a deal, but it's only for a period of time and we give ourselves time to get to know each other and then we renegotiate. So there's other strategies, but fundamentally it comes down to if I view this as a relationship, is this somebody that I really want to be with?

Stephen Matini: Based on what you said, I'm thinking out loud. Could it be that when people feel whether it's real or not, that they don't have an alternative, that's also when the negotiation gets really, really difficult?

Carolyn Goerner: Yes. Oh, yes, right on the money. Because if I've got nothing but what's going on with this conversation right here, oh, exactly what you said.

Then I feel like I've either got to do one or two things. I got to fight really, really hard, or I just have to give in and give you whatever you need. But if you're my only alternative, I have not got good options.

Stephen Matini: So do you believe that people always have an option, an alternative option? 

Carolyn Goerner: No, I wish they did. There are some things where we don't, and that's when we just have to really get into a mindset that says, I want you to win, but I want me to win too, and we're going to have to get collaborative and creative, which is really hard to do.

It's scary to assert your interests and say, "No, I need this too," when you don't have an alternative. On the other hand, in the long term, if all I do is keep giving in and giving in and giving in, that's just a recipe for feeling bitter. That's a recipe for long-term, ooh, I hate this, right? And so, yeah...

I think that looking for options is always a good idea, but it's not the case that we have them. Is that kind of where you were coming from with that question that maybe we don't?

Stephen Matini: Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, as you were talking, millions of things flying in my head. And like one of the things that I hear very often when I do this kind of work with clients, because yeah, very often the notion of boundaries come up in all the time because it's a conflict, because a negotiation, whatever there might be. And one thing they say is, oh, you know, for you, it's easier because you're an independent professional, you have options to which I say, I understand where you're coming from. And it's true.

You know, I've worked really hard to have a, a diversified portfolio, but keep in mind that I have no security whatsoever, as you are saying, but the answer that I often provide to them is this one. If I really feel that I'm stuck with the client, that I have no option for me, that is no longer a negotiation, but it falls under me having the right expectation. 

Meaning for a certain time being, you know, I have to stay here. It's pointless to fight it. It's pointless to get all worked up about it because I lose energy. So I'm going to stay here as, as aware as possible. In the meantime, I'm going to seek options that somehow I'm representative. And it does the trick for me because it saves a lot of energy. 

Carolyn Goerner: Oh, I love that. I absolutely love that. So you're right. Not only does it save you from just kind of complaining about it in your mind all the time or to other people, right? But it also just puts it in perspective. A hundred percent. That makes all the sense. I love that. I will be stealing that, but I'll tell people it came from you.

Stephen Matini: Yeah, because people complain, complain. Listen, are you going to stay here in this workplace with this boss and that? Well, then what is the point? You know, and then sometimes they vent to me. You can vent at me as much as you want. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about it. So I think a better question is how can you stay here as long as you have to stay here in the best possible way? And then maybe to have some sort of you know, awareness, calling, whatever, so that you can find the right situation for you. But I understand it's very difficult.

You know, I'm thinking of four different types of scenarios, which is like super, super hard, which is when I have to deal with my boss, a difficult negotiation with my boss, or it could be with my teammates, or it could be with the client or a loved one. So these four, you know, so boss teammates, client and loved one. In your experience, which one is the hardest? 

Carolyn Goerner: Oh, a loved one, of course. Because you, you, I don't have an option, right? In my mind, there is no option to the person that is my, my, my husband, my partner. And I'm lucky because he's amazing. But there is no option for him, right? So, yeah, so obviously that's when you have to just get really creative because that's just not the way it works for me. You know, and so I get it.

I think people will often tell you that the negotiation with the boss would be next. And that's where I really would push folks to say, you got to do your homework first, right?

And so what is the value that you bring to the relationship with your boss? In other words, how do you make her look good? How do you help him achieve his goals? How do you make them, at the end of the day, look better?

And at that point, you know, it's kind of sitting back and reflecting on why your work is important to them. And so if I recognize, well, part of the reason that my work is, you know, that I'm important to my boss is that they use me as a sounding board to come bounce ideas off of, right? Pretty common.

Well, I need to know that if I'm going to go in and ask for more time working remote, and I need to have thought about, look, this is how they need and view me. And so I need to go in with a solution that says, I will stay on a teams channel with you, or I will do whatever it takes. But my job, first of all, is to understand why I might get pushed back and what it is about what my boss wants that could make that tough.

And so that's the homework that we've really got to do before then. With teammates, it tends to kind of be a lot of reciprocity. I'll do this for you, you do this for me, just kind of working back and forth. But the same with teammates and with clients, the one power that people often underestimate the most that they have is likability. And so, I mean, think about for a second. Think about the last three times you did a favor for someone. So somebody asked you to do a favor and you did a favor for them.

Stephen Matini: Yeah.

Carolyn Goerner: I'm going to bet that two of those three were just because you liked the person.

Stephen Matini: Yes. 

Carolyn Goerner: And that's not uncommon. I mean, yeah, we do things for people we like. And so the key to those is making sure that I'm not only talking to you when I need something, but that we've really worked on a relationship and we've worked to find things in common and that I've shown a real interest in you and I really do want to know what you do and what you're about.

And if that is the context with teammates and with clients and with your boss too, I think to an extent, then we've got a very different kind of conversation. In context, we get each other.

And so I realize how busy we all are. And believe me, I have to remind myself of this all the time, but that five minutes that I spend after a team's meeting or in the hallway or in a coffee shop, just actually having a conversation with how's your kids? How's your dogs? What'd you think of the last sporting event? That stuff matters. That stuff really matters because that makes it easier for us to then have a tougher conversation.

Stephen Matini: I agree. In my head, I am aware of the principle of reciprocity. I'm aware of the impact of what I do for people. I think for me, mostly I do because I know that there have been key people in my life. And it is because of their generosity that I've been able to have the opportunities that I have.

And I know how difficult it is. And I really, I owe them everything. So I try to do the same. The biggest recent experience has been really the podcast. And I've been so grateful to everyone who has given me help and decided to do this. It's just amazing. And all it does, it gives a sense of yeah, gratitude and you want to work harder. You want to work better. You want somehow to reciprocate. So I agree with you. It's a wonderful cycle. Absolutely, 100%.

Carolyn Goerner: It's almost that paying it forward type of feeling. But all of the research that talks about the importance of gratitude and what a difference it makes in the way we view the world. Oh, exactly what you just said. That's, that's a big piece of it as well.

Stephen Matini: Everything these days, though, seems to have become so transactional, to a point that we oftentimes because we're busy or whatever that is, people forget about, hey, I'm a human being, you’re a human being. At the end of all, none of this will matter other than really this moment that we shared together.

What would you say that is the first step towards creating relationships that are more genuine and less transactional in a world that's super busy?

Carolyn Goerner: Let me think about how to phrase this for a second. Do you remember the last time that someone said, "Hey, how are you?" or "How you doing?" And you were just like, "Fine." And it was like the question never got asked, which is very transactional, right? We do that all the time.

So last night, my husband and I were out for dinner, and the server came up and said, "So hi, how you doing?" And was not expecting an answer. And when I just made eye contact and said, "We're good tonight. How are you?" She was almost startled.

I think it's just taking being the person who reminds everybody, no, you know, this doesn't have to be transactional. This doesn't have to be that, right? It can be something where we have a little more of a connection than just saying, you know, asking questions that we don't really need the answer to. And she stopped and went, I'm good. You know, it was just kind of funny.

I have a colleague who, whenever you see him, it'll never be just, "Hi, how are you?" But he asks a question like, "Caroline, what are you working on that you're really interested in?" Or, "What's the coolest thing that happened to you today?" And it's always a genuine interest asking that question. Now, does it take an extra 30 seconds to have the conversation? Absolutely, but it's worth that 30 seconds to get the feeling of the connection.

The other thing that I make it a real practice to do is to give compliments to other people, particularly to other women, even when I don't know them. And so if we're just, you know, I see someone coming in for dinner at a table near me, and as I walk by the table, I'll just stop and say, "You look amazing. That dress is perfect." So a random compliment from a stranger.

And I think the more that we just remind people that we're people and that I see you in a positive way, COVID didn't help this whole perception that we've got to stay safe. We've got to stay in our cocoon. We have to protect ourselves, right? And I think the more we model, let's just be open and let's just be vulnerable to one another, the more people kind of relax and go, Oh, that's right. I remember that. We used to do that, didn't we?

Stephen Matini: In the world of humans!

Carolyn Goerner: Exactly. And so it's just that sense of modeling it. And will it sometimes get misinterpreted or thrown back in 2% of the time? Sure. But for me, the 98% is worth it.

Stephen Matini: Do you think the issue is what you said? Is it around vulnerability and the difficulty that some people have in being vulnerable? Maybe?

Carolyn Goerner: Exactly Oh, of course. Yes. Absolutely. Actually, let me just kind of back up on that a little bit, because this is one of my thought questions. What does vulnerability mean to you? So when you're vulnerable, what does that mean?

Stephen Matini: That I dare to be myself?

Carolyn Goerner: That is such a great explanation. Because first of all, I dare. So I'm going to step outside my comfort zone. And I'm going to basically be transparent, right? I'm going to peel off the layer of the onion and sort of let you see.

And so I'm taking a risk that says, all right. And it's almost like you preface everything in your head with, "They're going to think this is weird, but." And the irony is that we all have that same thought, right?

We all go, "Oh, they're going to think this is weird, but, you know, and off we go." And so, as a colleague of mine says, "Revel in the absurd, just embrace the weird." And it becomes a mindset where again, you just kind of say, "I'm going to try." I'm not going to lie, there are times when it gets smacked back in my face hard.

But most of the time, and a vast majority, like more than 90% of the time, it's met with, "Oh, I can be vulnerable too." And you can actually even see people's shoulders relax. And, you know, it's like, oh, oh, okay, this is cool. And it's nice.

Stephen Matini: In this regard, have you, and not just about this, about the way, let's say you negotiate, you deal with this whole world of confrontation. Have you changed over the years? Have you always been this way?

Carolyn Goerner: Oh, completely changed. Yeah, you've changed. Completely changed over the years. And I'm not sure what, well, it's been an evolution of a lot of different things. First was getting comfortable with, we all have a sense of imposter syndrome and getting comfortable with mine was a big part of that.

It also has just kind of come down to, I've tried enough, I've dared enough, and I know that most of the time it's going to end up well, and I know I'm strong enough to handle the times that don't. And so that's just a little, you know, self-awareness and knowledge and confidence really comes from practice. And so that's what, but a big part of that is. But I think genuinely, maybe it's getting older. Maybe it's the white hair. I don't know.

Stephen Matini: I have one last question for you. What keeps your mind busy these days? Is there any thought, any insight somehow that keeps your mind wandering these days?

Carolyn Goerner: What a great question. And interestingly, it really is around the gender, the gender differences issue. There is a lot of, well, there are books about negotiation called Women Don't Ask.

And so for a long time, we had this belief that women just didn't negotiate and that that was part of what explained the wage gap between men and women. And it was almost as if that was a slam on women, right? They're not asking.

And newer research has said, first of all, anybody who's trained is more likely to negotiate. So that takes the gender difference down a bit. And so as long as someone's received training in negotiation, regardless of gender, they're more likely to ask, which is why I love what I teach.

But, there's a big difference in the perception still. If people hold traditional stereotypes, then women are going to be perceived differently when they ask than are men. And so that's, I think, where my brain is trying to do, to play at that intersection of if the person that I'm talking to is coming to me and seeing me through the lens of really traditional gender stereotypes, how do I work with that and make it so that we can have a conversation without them automatically having a negative reaction because that stereotype violation?

So that's the thing that kind of keeps me thinking in the car, is just trying to figure out how those traditional stereotypes that still exist play with the advice that I want to give people about how to move forward and succeed with any gender.

Stephen Matini: Carolyn, I'm really happy that I got to spend this time with you.

Carolyn: Oh, this was fabulous. Stephen, thank you so much.