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Pet Life Radio.
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This is Pet Life Radio. Let's talk pets.
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Welcome, everyone. Welcome to Best Pets for Pets. I'm so
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excited to have you here. We have a great show today.
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I just read the most amazing book. It's a series
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of opinionated animals by Michelle Lerner. Talks all about animals,
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and that's what we're about.
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So stay tuned.
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We'll be right back.
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Hey, everyone. Brandon McMillan here, CBS host of Lucky Dog
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Reunions and Lucky Dog Down Under, and spokesperson for the
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18th Annual Cross-Country Pet Adoption Tour, Get Your Licks on
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Route 66. Brought to you by Fido Friendly Magazine and
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campaign partner Tranquil Tales, along with media sponsor PetLife Radio.
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The tour travels down America's favorite highway, supporting shelter events
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across America. With support of Tito's Vodka for Dog People,
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Hands-On Gloves, My Place Hotels, KOA, and Signs to You,
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attendees at each shelter event can donate to spin and
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win prizes from our sponsors with all proceeds benefiting the
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shelter at the end of the day. Go to FidoFriendly.com
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to see where the tour stops near you. And who knows,
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you might just find your new forever friend. Let's Talk
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Pets on PetLifeRadio.com.
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Welcome back, everyone. I'd like to welcome Michelle Lerner. She
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is an author and a Harvard-educated lawyer that has an
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incredible passion for animals and has written the book called
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A Series of Opinionated Animals, A Memoir. Michelle, welcome to
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the show.
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Thanks so much. Thank you for having me.
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I'm so excited to have you on the show. Now,
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your book is a series of opinionated animals. What made
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you write this book? And you're a lawyer, but you're
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an author, and you have such a passion for animals.
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A lot of cats are mentioned, but you also have
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the range from squirrel to do horse to, I mean,
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it's unbelievable. So what made you think, I need to
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write about this?
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So I was a public interest lawyer for about 20 years.
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About 10 years of that, I practiced animal law. And
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I then got sick about 10 years ago and had
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to stop practicing. And I started writing. I'd always been
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a writer. I'd been mostly a poet. I'd gotten an
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MFA in poetry on the side when I was working
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as a lawyer. And I published a novel last year,
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a very serious novel. literary fiction novel about grief. And
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after that novel, I was going to start on a
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historical novel. And my spouse, Gray, who's mentioned in this
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book a lot, had read How to Be a Good
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Creature by Cy Montgomery, the great Cy Montgomery, who's authored
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a lot of books about animals. And he said to me,
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you should write a memoir about the animals in your
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life and our animals.
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And I said, why? Why would somebody want to read that?
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A lot of people have animals. It's a very common thing.
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And he said, I don't think it's very common to
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have a neurologically impaired squirrel, a disabled sheep, and six
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cats with feline leukemia at your house or to go
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to Harvard Law School because of your horse.
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Wait, you said people have said that's a common thing?
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When he suggested that I write a memoir about our
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animals and the animals in my life, my initial reaction was,
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Why would somebody want to read that?
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A lot of people have animals. It's a common thing
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to have animals.
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And he pointed out that the way that we have
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had animals and the animals that have been in my
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life and what they've motivated me to do, including at
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law school, is not common and is something that was
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worth writing about and that people would want to read
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and hear about and that there was a larger message
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to it. And that's, you know, I actually sort of,
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I was on an online group with other writers and
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I kind of uphold them as to whether they thought
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I should start on the historical novel or on this.
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And in talking about why I might write a memoir
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about my animals, I said something like, I've had a
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series of opinionated animals in one of the other writers
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wrote back, well, you obviously need to write that book,
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and that's the title, and that's how it started.
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I thought it was amazing. It was so interesting, and
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I've read a lot of animal-focused books, memoirs, all kinds,
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and I really liked it. What made you decide that
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you have a neurologically impaired squirrel, cats, a rabbit, you
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had a disabled sheep, a horse, and some other characters?
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What made you realize that, or, you know, you're so
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animal focused or did this just come at an early
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age for you?
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Yeah.
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I mean, I grew up, I was an only child
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and I grew up in a house full of animals,
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all of whom were rescued.
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Most of the cats just showed up.
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A couple came from the pound and my parents treated
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the animals as part of our family. I think I
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kind of viewed them as siblings in some way. And,
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you know, at the point when I was eight years old,
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I started taking riding lessons at this hack stable.
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In my town.
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My mom wanted me to take horseback riding lessons. And
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I met this horse Shire there who I fell madly
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in love with, who had a leg injury. And when
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he was going to be sold for slaughter, my parents
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rescued him and I became his caregiver and champion, you know,
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and protector. At the age of nine. So my life
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was very shaped from an early age by the animals
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in my life and by the ethic of rescue and
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caring for animals and viewing them as people and providing
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them the same kind of care and respect that you
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would another human.
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You focused a lot on animals that were, you know,
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animals with, for lack of a better way to say it,
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like issues, you know, that had more older or had
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something wrong with them. The animals that, you know, are
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kind of left behind in a way. Why were you
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drawn to those animals?
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I don't know if it's that I was particularly drawn
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to them or if I was able to see who
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they were beyond that. And because other people couldn't, they
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were in a position where they needed somebody to take
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care of them. I mean, I think that's how a
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lot of the animals ended up in my home when
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I was young. And, you know, I was not drawn
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to my horse Shire, who really was my soulmate. I
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was not drawn to him when I was eight because
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he had a leg injury. I didn't even know he
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had a leg injury when I met him. I was
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drawn to him because he was very... funny and smart
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and personable and I was drawn to his personality but
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I ended up spending a lot of my life with
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him because he had an injury that was going to
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result in his death because to the people around him
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he was mostly worth what he could do for them
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in terms of being ridden and earning money so with
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him and with a lot of the others I don't
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think it's that I was drawn to them because of
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their disabilities or age or other issues, but that I
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ended up with them because of those issues or their
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age because they had nowhere else to go.
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Thank you. So was there a particular cat in all
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of the cats that you adopted that made you really
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change the way you understood animals or your relationship with them?
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I've had so many cats.
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I mean, I grew up with seven cats and I've
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probably had more than 30 of my own. And they've
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all affected me a lot. I think one who I
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think about often in the way that you're asking is
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Teddy Bear, who's in the book. I was actually going to,
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I could read a couple of pages if you want about,
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I was thinking of reading how Teddy Bear came into
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my life. But the reason, you know, he had pretty
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severe health issues and disabilities, but he also had the
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biggest attitude of any cat I've ever seen.
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Known.
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And I think, you know, what he taught me is
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that the way that we look at life and our
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attitude toward life and towards others and what we think
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of ourselves really does not have to be limited by
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anything physical or any part of our circumstance.
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It might make a little bit more sense if it's okay.
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I can maybe just read like two pages about how
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he came into, into our lives and I can talk
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about him a While my group and I were fighting
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to get TNR, that's Trapneuter Return, allowed in my town,
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the business administrator of the next town called and asked
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for help.
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Their only apartment.
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Complex was completely overrun with feral cats. I went to
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assess and encountered a situation that was a cross between
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Where's Waldo and a Stephen King novel. The sprawling complex
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was practically carpeted with cats. They were in every walkway,
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every parking lot, and spilling out of every dumpster.
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Adults and kittens, lots of kittens.
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I quickly organized a TNR program in that town, and
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one of the residents agreed to foster the kittens while
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I set up an adoption program. Her living room turned
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into a nursery school.
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For tiny felines.
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One night, she called to say that while she was
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checking traps at the apartments, a couple had come out
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of an apartment holding a very tiny, trembling, and mostly
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hairless kitten they said they'd found outside and had been
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trying to care for. volunteer thought the couple seemed hopped.
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Up and surmised the kitten had somehow accessed meth.
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She convinced them to hand him over and she took
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him home, but he needed to see a vet first
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thing in the morning. She estimated he was four weeks
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old since he was able to eat on his own,
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but said he was the size of a.
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Two- or three-week-old and couldn't move around much on his own.
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I picked the kitten up the next morning and took
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him to a vet who was helping us. The vet
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didn't know what to make of the tiny, bald, shaking kitten.
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The kitten seemed to have a neurological problem affecting his
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movement as well as several different infections.
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He was anemic and covered with fleas.
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His face was oddly round and his ears were about
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twice as long as those of other kittens and sprouted thick.
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Tufts of the only fur on his body.
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He looked like a feline version of Yoda. I asked
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the vet if the kitten would make it. Well, he said,
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every other kitten I've seen who looked like this has
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made it. You've seen other kittens who look like this?
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I asked hopefully. No, he replied, not a single one.
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Have you? After the appointment, I had to bring the
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kitten to my own house for an hour until the
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volunteer who was fostering him got home. Because he was
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too small for flea treatment and still needed a bath
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to get them off, I didn't bring him in the house. Also,
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truth be told, I didn't think Gray would react kindly
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to me bringing him in. When I'd started with the
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TNR business, I'd promised it wouldn't result in me bringing
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the cats home. So it was that Gray came out
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onto the front porch, where I was sitting with a tiny, sick,
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mostly hairless kitten with a face that looked like Yoda's,
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who was trembling all over while holding onto my finger
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with his front paws through the grate of the carrier.
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I was ready for a fight. I could barely get
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myself to look at the kitten. His appearance was so sickly,
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so strange, so alien-like. I cringed at what Gray's reaction
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would be and opened my mouth to tell him the
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kitten would be gone within the hour. But Gray's face
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lit up and he exclaimed, Oh my God, I've never
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seen a kitten this close.
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This is what they look like?
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He's so cute.
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I blinked in disbelief.
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He'd never seen a kitten up close and he thought
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this was what they.
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Normally look like?
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And he thought he was cute? I knew at that
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moment that we were going to adopt the kitten. It
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was all over Gray's face and really who else was.
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Going to adopt him.
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He clearly had a long and uncertain medical road ahead
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of him.
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Thank you. That was great. You and your husband, very
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patient and amazing people. There was a part in the book,
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I still remember this, where when you got to later
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when you were pregnant with your child and you said something,
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I don't remember exactly, but You know, I might use
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the card that I'm carrying his fetus so he can't
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deny me for adopting, I think, yet another animal. But
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I was like, laugh out loud, funny. I can't even imagine.
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You were at the vet. You probably could be a
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veterinarian with how much? Do you ever feel like that,
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that you could probably be a veterinarian with all the
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caretaking you've done, especially with the cats?
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My whole life, people have asked me why, if I
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was going to be a vet or why I didn't
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go to vet school. And And sometimes when I'm in
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vet or medical offices, I get asked if I'm in
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the medical profession, just from all the often unfortunate experience
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I've had.
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With medical issues with animals.
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But I don't think I could have ever become a
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vet because it requires too much, not only losing of
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animals and euthanasia, but dealing with humans who don't actually
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want to put in the time and care that's required
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to care for animals. sick or elderly or disabled animals
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and who ask for them to be euthanized or who
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don't have the resources to. I'm in a very different
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position doing what I can through rescue and advocacy than
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I would be as a vet.
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And I'm so.
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Grateful that the vets who have helped the animals in
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my life didn't have that perspective and went through vet
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school and do what they do. But it's not something
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that I ever really considered.
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We talked about your horse. When you talked about Shire,
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you said that Shire was the disabled horse, correct?
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Yeah, he had a leg disability.
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He had been a police horse and had an injury
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on the police force.
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So Shire had a great impact on your life. I
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know that you had him when you were fairly young.
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Yeah, I met him when I was eight, and I
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became his caregiver when I was nine. And he lived
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until I was 22.
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Do you think he changed you for life as far
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as your relationship with animals?
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I think he changed me for life in terms of
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my relationship with everyone and with the world. I think
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he was sort of the defining relationship in my life.
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You know, I refer to him a lot as my soulmate,
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and I really feel like that. I grew up in
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a home where there was a lot of caretaking of
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animals going on. But I was a child. I wasn't
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the person who was responsible. And I think becoming... responsible
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for him at the age of nine definitely shaped who
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I was growing up in terms of a caregiving ethic
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and a type of responsibility, and also the fact that
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I needed to advocate for him all the time to
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get the care that he needed, to get access to
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things like pasture, finding barns where we could be I
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think it's a little bit different now. There are more
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people that are caring for horses that they don't ride,
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but it was a very unusual thing at the time.
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And people at most of the barns were sort of,
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you know, quote, horse people who had their horses because
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they rode them. And if their horses became unable to
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be ridden, they got rid of them in one way
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or another, selling them, euthanizing them. And My caring for
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Shire and my parents paying Shire's bills when I wasn't
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riding him seemed almost offensive to a lot of them
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and maybe kind of threatening, maybe threatening in some way,
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because I think they were able to justify in their minds,
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you know, to say that they loved their horses, but
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justify not caring for them if they weren't able to
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be ridden.
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And I think that my.
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That Shire's existence and my relationship with him challenged that
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to some extent. And so from a very young age,
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I was having to kind of defend his worth and
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why he was alive and why he deserved to have
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access to what other horses.
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Had access to.
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And I think in a lot of ways that probably
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made me the advocate that I am. And we just
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also had a very intense bond that I think probably
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influenced the way that I've been open to other animals
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and also other humans in my life.
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Okay, we're going to take a short break and we'll
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be right back. Talk to the Paw.
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Hi, this is Amy Stewart.
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Hi, I'm Jane Lynch.
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This is Mandy Boyd.
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Hi there, I'm Kate Walsh. This is Catherine Tygo.
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There's only one station that gives you the scoop on
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00:16:53.789 --> 00:16:58.110
wagging tongues and tails. And who's walking who in Renton, Tinseltown.
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PetLife Radio, the tail wagger. Let's talk pets. Let's talk pets.
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On PetLife Radio.
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PetLife Radio.
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PetLifeRadio.com.
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Welcome back, everyone. We're talking to Michelle Lerner. She wrote
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the book, A Series of Opinionated Animals, a memoir. So, Michelle,
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also in the book, you have a disabled sheep that
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learned to herd cats while wearing children's skateboard pads. Just
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reading that makes me go, what? Like, what? How did
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you do that? But I loved it in the book.
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How in the world did that happen? How did you
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end up adopting a sheep that herded cats and wore
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special knee pads?
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So in 2000, I was a legal aid lawyer at
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that time in Boston, and Gray and I bought a
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house and moved into a rural area in central Massachusetts.
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And we had three big dogs. And I really missed
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having cats, and he really didn't want to adopt any
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more animals. And so I started volunteering at a local
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cat shelter that was an unusual cat shelter. It was
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unusual in that it was attached to a house and
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it was sort of owned and run by the person
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who lived in the house. It was no-kill at a
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time that most shelters were not no-kill. Even she took
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in and took care of cats with feline leukemia, which
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nobody else was really, or very few shelters were doing.
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She also took in a lot of other animals that
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were not cats. And when I showed up one time
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for my volunteer shift, the garage was open and there
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was a lamb in the garage in a little puppy enclosure.
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And she was kneeling on her front legs. And I
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went over to see her and she put one of
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the legs out in front of her, the foot, but
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it remained bent. And the other one stayed on its
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knee while she ran away from me and hid behind
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a cage. And When I went in to ask what
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the deal was with the lamb in the garage, it
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turned out that another volunteer who lived in New Hampshire
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next to a sheep farm had learned that this lamb
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was born unable to straighten her legs and that the
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farmer was going to kill her at three months old.
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And she scooped up the lamb and brought her to
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the cat shelter and left her there.
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So they named her Lambie.
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They had this weird idea they were going to be
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able to figure out how to straighten her legs through
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physical therapy, which didn't work. I tried getting her surgery,
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which didn't work. And she eventually was moved into the
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feral cat yard where she lived with cats until she.
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was two years old. We moved to New Jersey and
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took her with us.
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During that time, she really grew up with cats and
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had a group of cats that followed her around. As
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she got bigger, she started getting bloody knees from walking
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on them. We tried to figure out a lot of
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different ways of addressing that. And the thing that ended
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up working was a child's elbow pad for skateboarding. We
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used to go to a skate shop to get her
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her knee pads. So she wore these knee pads. And
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when we moved to our house in New Jersey, we
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had a few cats and we had a fenced in
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yard with cat fencing on top to keep them in.
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We only let them out though still if we were
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with them. And Lammy was used to living with cats,
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so she liked them and liked to spend time with them.
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And when it was time for them to come in
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and we would try to get them in and they
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wouldn't want to come in, she would run around and
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nudge them and sort of herd them to the door.
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So yeah, it's totally contradicting the idea that you can't
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herd cats.
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Lammy had it down.
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Yeah.
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Hey, when there's a will, there's a way, you know,
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00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:02.789
and animals have their own way of vibing with each other.
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They just do. And I haven't seen that a lot.
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00:21:05.509 --> 00:21:08.109
The most I've had is I'm way more basic and
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00:21:08.150 --> 00:21:10.920
boring than you. I've had dogs and cats together, but
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00:21:11.140 --> 00:21:14.799
you've had the whole, you know, whole menagerie. Let's talk
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00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.660
about a little bit more about your background because you
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00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.319
eventually went into animal law and you also helped establish
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one of the nation's early animal law programs at Harvard.
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How did you do that? Why was that important for you?
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So at the time that I graduated from college, that
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I was finishing college, my horse Shire was really very
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clearly nearing the end of his life. He was elderly
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and his legs were getting much worse. And I was
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interested in going to anthropology graduate school, but I was
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not able to sort of think about what I was
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going to do or apply for school or for career
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type jobs because I was very focused on being with
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him and taking care of him at the end of
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his life. And that summer after college, I got a
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job working at the farm where he was living. And
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when he died, I mean, he was euthanized and he
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became completely paralyzed in his back end at the end
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of that summer. I was very disoriented, not only from
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00:22:16.170 --> 00:22:18.990
losing him, but because, you know, I just graduated college.
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All of my friends had sort of moved on to
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things and had five-year, 10-year plans, and I did not.
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And I read about Gary Francione, who is an animal
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law professor at Rutgers Law School. And I'd never heard
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of an animal lawyer. You know, there were some, but
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there were not many. Or an animal law program. He
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00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:41.890
taught a couple of classes.
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And he had a clinic.
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So I started looking into going there, having just lost
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Shire and having sort of advocated for him. his whole life,
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I kind of felt like the best way to honor
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00:22:53.109 --> 00:22:56.690
him was, once I found out about this program, was
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00:22:56.849 --> 00:23:01.349
to become a lawyer for animals. Part of how I
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00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:03.779
found out about Gary Francione is I read this really
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incredible book that he'd written called Animals, Property, and the
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Law that talked about why it was really impossible to
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to help animals on any kind of large scale through
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the legal system because of their classification as property and
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what would need to happen to change that. And, you know,
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being 22 years old, I decided that was going to
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be my mission, that I would work on changing that,
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and I would try to go to this program. But
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my then-boyfriend, Gray, was leaving to go to graduate school
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at Harvard the next year, and my mother, without my knowing,
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you know, this was the time of paper applications, sent
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away for an application to Harvard Law School, filled it out,
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attached my transcripts, and then just convinced me to write
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the essay and the things that needed to actually be
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done by me. And I wrote an essay about Shire
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and about wanting to practice animal law, which Harvard Law
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00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:02.000
School did not teach and most law schools did not teach.
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And when I got in, I went because that's where
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00:24:05.609 --> 00:24:09.809
Gray was going. And there were no relevant classes there,
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I was just really focusing on getting through the first
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00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.940
year of law school. I took a two-week summer animal
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00:24:17.980 --> 00:24:22.869
law class at Vermont Law School. But in my second year,
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I lived off campus, so I had a locker at
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the law school to keep my things in. And people
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00:24:28.869 --> 00:24:31.950
were putting, you know, it was fall, it was election season,
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00:24:31.970 --> 00:24:34.980
people were putting political stickers on their locker. And I
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put an animal rights sticker on my locker. It said
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something like, was your oven cleaner force fed.
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To an animal?
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And when I came in the next day, my locker
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was completely covered top to bottom, like a six foot
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tall locker with notes taped to it. A lot of
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00:24:50.019 --> 00:24:55.220
really hostile unsigned notes. And then a bunch of notes
475
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:59.470
responding to it by people who signed their names. And
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I contacted every one of the students who had written
477
00:25:03.619 --> 00:25:06.759
some kind of supportive response and signed their name and
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00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:10.579
started an animal law student group. There were a few
479
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:13.099
of those in the country, but not many at all,
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like really a handful. And there's an organization that's still around,
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the Animal Legal Defense Fund. And I petitioned them to
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let us become the second student Animal Legal Defense Fund
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00:25:25.710 --> 00:25:27.470
chapter in the country. And they said they were only
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00:25:27.490 --> 00:25:28.910
interested in having one that was at.
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00:25:28.869 --> 00:25:29.609
Lewis and Clark.
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They didn't think it would work at Harvard or at
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other places, it would be too much work. And I really,
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really harassed them about it until they agreed to sponsor
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00:25:39.569 --> 00:25:43.089
us and let us become a student chapter. And we did,
490
00:25:43.170 --> 00:25:46.809
and we started having programs. And then as I was graduating,
491
00:25:46.869 --> 00:25:50.230
we lobbied for an animal law class to be taught
492
00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:54.490
at Harvard. And we convinced the administration to do it,
493
00:25:55.410 --> 00:25:58.630
The first class was taught after I left. I wasn't
494
00:25:58.670 --> 00:26:01.529
able to take it there. And as a result, I
495
00:26:01.769 --> 00:26:03.869
went into legal aid for 10 years before I came
496
00:26:03.910 --> 00:26:08.119
back to animal law. But that class was so popular
497
00:26:08.150 --> 00:26:13.339
and it was so publicized that Harvard Law School, because
498
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:16.339
of its name, has started an animal law class that
499
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:20.619
Bob Barker from The Price is Right donated a very
500
00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:24.940
large donation to help start an animal law program there.
501
00:26:25.220 --> 00:26:27.559
And at this point, there's been the animal, the Harvard
502
00:26:27.579 --> 00:26:30.819
Law School Animal Law and Policy Program has been in existence.
503
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:32.859
They're having their 25th anniversary.
504
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.740
I think everything he's done has been amazing. Where do
505
00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:41.049
you think we are now as far as with animal rights?
506
00:26:41.309 --> 00:26:44.529
I mean, there's some states that are very progressive and
507
00:26:44.609 --> 00:26:47.569
some states that are not. There's things that probably should
508
00:26:47.609 --> 00:26:52.289
be federal law, you know, like declawing. But there's, I
509
00:26:52.349 --> 00:26:55.609
think my personal opinion, and obviously I'm not an attorney
510
00:26:56.009 --> 00:27:00.430
or a lawyer, but I think we have, we've made progress,
511
00:27:01.109 --> 00:27:03.869
but we have a long way to go. You're the
512
00:27:03.950 --> 00:27:07.519
expert though, being an attorney, where do you, what do
513
00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:07.950
you think?
514
00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:12.740
I think that there has been progress on very specific
515
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:19.299
types of protections for animals, but very little progress in
516
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:23.960
terms of rights for animals in this country. And the
517
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.809
difference between a protection and a right is that a
518
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:32.809
right is something that you can enforce and protect and
519
00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:37.369
that the government or other parties cannot interfere with except
520
00:27:37.549 --> 00:27:41.759
in very extreme situations. Like if you have a First
521
00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:44.619
Amendment right to speech, you yourself can defend your right
522
00:27:44.660 --> 00:27:47.359
to that and the government can only interfere with it
523
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:50.410
if they have a very important interest that can't be
524
00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:54.009
met in any other way besides restricting your speech, like
525
00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:56.750
that you can't yell fire in a theater or something
526
00:27:56.789 --> 00:28:00.920
like that. Animals don't have rights in the United States
527
00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:04.759
because they're not treated as people. They're treated as property.
528
00:28:04.900 --> 00:28:09.480
So if they're given a particular protection, it's really up to,
529
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:14.240
you know, if it's a protection that is regulation, it
530
00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:17.519
has to be enforced by an agency, If it's in
531
00:28:17.579 --> 00:28:20.140
criminal law, it would have to be enforced by the
532
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:25.180
criminal justice system. And the animals themselves do not have
533
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.700
a right to enforce it. And you might think, well,
534
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:30.940
how would they possibly anyway? An animal can't go to court.
535
00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:34.089
But neither can a baby or a child or somebody
536
00:28:34.130 --> 00:28:37.809
with dementia or who's unconscious in a hospital. And there
537
00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:40.630
are ways for them to enforce their rights by people
538
00:28:41.130 --> 00:28:44.730
representing their interests and being a plaintiff on their behalf.
539
00:28:45.589 --> 00:28:51.069
There are also non-human persons recognized by law, like corporations
540
00:28:51.269 --> 00:28:55.980
are recognized in this country as having the rights of
541
00:28:56.019 --> 00:28:58.180
a person in a lot of ways, First Amendment rights,
542
00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:03.059
other rights, but animals are not. And so even, say,
543
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:06.970
endangered species protections, there have been a lot of lawsuits
544
00:29:07.589 --> 00:29:11.710
to protect against violations of the Endangered Species Act and
545
00:29:11.750 --> 00:29:16.359
protect endangered species rights. But the lawsuits, they're normally filed
546
00:29:16.460 --> 00:29:20.079
by environmental nonprofits, not on behalf of the animals. They
547
00:29:20.099 --> 00:29:23.500
wouldn't be able to. They're filed on behalf of human
548
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:28.849
members by filing affidavits that those human members go regularly
549
00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:32.009
and hike in this particular area and either see or
550
00:29:32.069 --> 00:29:35.130
want to see this species and that their own life
551
00:29:35.349 --> 00:29:39.980
is affected by the violation of the Endangered Species Act.
552
00:29:40.059 --> 00:29:41.220
Act that affects the animal.
553
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:44.759
So it's not across the board internationally that animals are
554
00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:47.099
treated like this. There are a few countries that have
555
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:52.259
recognized in their constitutions or in other ways that animals
556
00:29:52.779 --> 00:29:55.059
are sentient beings, that they have some of the rights
557
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.839
of a person, that lawsuits can be filed on their behalf, etc.,
558
00:29:59.730 --> 00:30:01.569
That hasn't happened in the United States.
559
00:30:01.589 --> 00:30:04.990
We're progressive as I think we think we are. There's
560
00:30:05.029 --> 00:30:08.309
a lot that we're way behind. We're running out of time.
561
00:30:08.329 --> 00:30:09.630
I have a couple more questions.
562
00:30:09.869 --> 00:30:10.130
Okay.
563
00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:13.150
Let's talk about your book again. One of the themes
564
00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:15.750
running through your memoir is that animals can teach us
565
00:30:15.789 --> 00:30:18.430
how to be better humans. What do you think that
566
00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:24.059
animals understand about compassion that we as humans sometimes forget?
567
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:29.259
I think that animals do not generally understand have the
568
00:30:29.299 --> 00:30:32.940
sense that they need to deserve things in order to
569
00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:36.119
be able to have what they need. I don't think
570
00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:39.720
they generally feel like they need to meet particular standards.
571
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:43.890
Often they live in situations with humans where they are
572
00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:47.549
only allowed access to resources or to get what they
573
00:30:47.589 --> 00:30:50.690
need if they behave in very particular ways, and they
574
00:30:50.730 --> 00:30:51.950
learn to do that.
575
00:30:52.009 --> 00:30:52.950
That's called training.
576
00:30:53.470 --> 00:30:56.680
But I think on a fundamental level, they do not
577
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:03.750
look at their own quirks or differences as things that
578
00:31:04.750 --> 00:31:09.099
should limit their access to the world or negatively affect.
579
00:31:08.859 --> 00:31:09.599
Them in any way.
580
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:14.640
And I think they're much more open to accepting themselves
581
00:31:14.819 --> 00:31:18.700
and each other and us for exactly who we are,
582
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.990
no matter how different we are or what our quirks
583
00:31:23.069 --> 00:31:27.210
or faults are. And I think that's something that most
584
00:31:27.269 --> 00:31:29.400
humans have a a hard time doing.
585
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.029
What is the one thing you hope our listening audience
586
00:31:33.130 --> 00:31:37.369
takes away from reading your book, A Series of Opinionated Animals?
587
00:31:37.970 --> 00:31:42.930
I think an understanding of animals as people. They're not humans,
588
00:31:43.430 --> 00:31:46.779
but I think the term person is not just interchangeable
589
00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:50.619
with the term human, that a person is a sentient
590
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:54.240
being with a personality and interests of their own, and
591
00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:58.089
that I view other animals as people and as individuals.
592
00:31:58.970 --> 00:32:00.789
And I would hope that readers of the book would
593
00:32:00.829 --> 00:32:02.990
come away with that also. I think a lot of
594
00:32:03.049 --> 00:32:06.039
people do recognize that with the animals in their lives,
595
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:11.200
often cats or dogs or horses, but I think it's
596
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.640
harder for a lot of people to think of animals
597
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:18.619
that they're generally only aware of as species, like, quote,
598
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:22.680
farm animals, like chickens or sheep or wild animals, like
599
00:32:23.019 --> 00:32:27.890
squirrels or foxes or rabbits, as each being an individual
600
00:32:28.109 --> 00:32:34.069
person that probably have widely varying personalities. And I hope
601
00:32:34.170 --> 00:32:36.930
that by, you know, telling the stories that I tell
602
00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:40.059
of animals of different species, that it becomes clear that
603
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.920
it's really not just about cats and dogs, that every
604
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:46.180
animal of every species is an individual.
605
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:49.359
Thank you so much. Where can people find your book?
606
00:32:50.019 --> 00:32:54.180
Well, it's coming out October 6th. There've been some issues
607
00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:56.339
with the distributor, so I don't know what the best
608
00:32:56.420 --> 00:32:59.279
way is right now, but It is up for pre-order
609
00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:02.920
on bookshop.org, which is where I usually like to send
610
00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:07.619
people because it supports independent bookstores. But it's also available
611
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:13.809
on Amazon and on Barnes & Noble online, some individual bookstores.
612
00:33:13.849 --> 00:33:16.759
Hopefully it'll be at libraries. But at this point, people
613
00:33:16.779 --> 00:33:19.299
should be able to pre-order it if they're hearing this
614
00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:22.109
before October 6th or just outright order it if it's
615
00:33:22.170 --> 00:33:27.710
after October 6th on bookshop.org, Barnes & Noble, or Amazon,
616
00:33:27.950 --> 00:33:30.529
or really any other place that they normally would buy books.
617
00:33:30.950 --> 00:33:32.869
Michelle, I want to thank you so much for coming
618
00:33:32.930 --> 00:33:35.690
on Best Bets for Pets and sharing your book, A
619
00:33:35.809 --> 00:33:40.740
Series of Opinionated Animals. Listening audience, that is by Michelle Lerner.
620
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:43.619
Thank you so much for having me. It's been really
621
00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:44.309
great to talk to you.
622
00:33:44.900 --> 00:33:47.740
I hope everyone enjoyed this show. Thank you again, Michelle,
623
00:33:47.789 --> 00:33:50.130
for coming on the show. The book is called A
624
00:33:50.309 --> 00:33:54.690
Series of Opinionated Animals by Michelle Lerner. I want to
625
00:33:54.730 --> 00:33:58.450
thank my crew. Thank you, Dennis, Charlotte, and Molly for
626
00:33:58.910 --> 00:34:01.420
being by my side while I read the book. It's
627
00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:05.440
a fascinating book. It's written so well and it's so interesting.
628
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:10.519
So please check it out. And remember, keep listening because
629
00:34:10.539 --> 00:34:13.110
you never know what we'll have next on Best Bets
630
00:34:13.150 --> 00:34:13.510
for Pets.
631
00:34:14.610 --> 00:34:19.840
Let's Talk Pets, every week on demand, only on PetLifeRadio.com.
1
00:00:00.950 --> 00:00:02.410
Pet Life Radio.
2
00:00:02.430 --> 00:00:05.070
This is Pet Life Radio. Let's talk pets.
3
00:00:15.369 --> 00:00:18.429
Welcome, everyone. Welcome to Best Pets for Pets. I'm so
4
00:00:18.489 --> 00:00:21.390
excited to have you here. We have a great show today.
5
00:00:22.010 --> 00:00:25.420
I just read the most amazing book. It's a series
6
00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:30.379
of opinionated animals by Michelle Lerner. Talks all about animals,
7
00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:31.719
and that's what we're about.
8
00:00:31.739 --> 00:00:32.859
So stay tuned.
9
00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:33.859
We'll be right back.
10
00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:40.780
Hey, everyone. Brandon McMillan here, CBS host of Lucky Dog
11
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:44.399
Reunions and Lucky Dog Down Under, and spokesperson for the
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00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:48.270
18th Annual Cross-Country Pet Adoption Tour, Get Your Licks on
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00:00:48.329 --> 00:00:52.469
Route 66. Brought to you by Fido Friendly Magazine and
14
00:00:52.530 --> 00:00:56.850
campaign partner Tranquil Tales, along with media sponsor PetLife Radio.
15
00:00:57.490 --> 00:01:01.320
The tour travels down America's favorite highway, supporting shelter events
16
00:01:01.619 --> 00:01:04.920
across America. With support of Tito's Vodka for Dog People,
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Hands-On Gloves, My Place Hotels, KOA, and Signs to You,
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attendees at each shelter event can donate to spin and
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win prizes from our sponsors with all proceeds benefiting the
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shelter at the end of the day. Go to FidoFriendly.com
21
00:01:20.250 --> 00:01:22.829
to see where the tour stops near you. And who knows,
22
00:01:23.189 --> 00:01:29.510
you might just find your new forever friend. Let's Talk
23
00:01:29.569 --> 00:01:32.049
Pets on PetLifeRadio.com.
24
00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:45.060
Welcome back, everyone. I'd like to welcome Michelle Lerner. She
25
00:01:45.379 --> 00:01:50.280
is an author and a Harvard-educated lawyer that has an
26
00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:54.620
incredible passion for animals and has written the book called
27
00:01:54.780 --> 00:01:59.549
A Series of Opinionated Animals, A Memoir. Michelle, welcome to
28
00:01:59.569 --> 00:01:59.950
the show.
29
00:02:00.090 --> 00:02:01.650
Thanks so much. Thank you for having me.
30
00:02:02.069 --> 00:02:04.730
I'm so excited to have you on the show. Now,
31
00:02:04.989 --> 00:02:09.250
your book is a series of opinionated animals. What made
32
00:02:09.270 --> 00:02:12.530
you write this book? And you're a lawyer, but you're
33
00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:15.379
an author, and you have such a passion for animals.
34
00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.240
A lot of cats are mentioned, but you also have
35
00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:22.300
the range from squirrel to do horse to, I mean,
36
00:02:22.819 --> 00:02:25.740
it's unbelievable. So what made you think, I need to
37
00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:26.500
write about this?
38
00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:30.719
So I was a public interest lawyer for about 20 years.
39
00:02:30.780 --> 00:02:34.430
About 10 years of that, I practiced animal law. And
40
00:02:34.990 --> 00:02:37.469
I then got sick about 10 years ago and had
41
00:02:37.509 --> 00:02:42.189
to stop practicing. And I started writing. I'd always been
42
00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:45.389
a writer. I'd been mostly a poet. I'd gotten an
43
00:02:45.509 --> 00:02:48.379
MFA in poetry on the side when I was working
44
00:02:48.409 --> 00:02:52.120
as a lawyer. And I published a novel last year,
45
00:02:52.139 --> 00:02:58.150
a very serious novel. literary fiction novel about grief. And
46
00:02:59.069 --> 00:03:01.789
after that novel, I was going to start on a
47
00:03:01.830 --> 00:03:06.620
historical novel. And my spouse, Gray, who's mentioned in this
48
00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:09.599
book a lot, had read How to Be a Good
49
00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:13.939
Creature by Cy Montgomery, the great Cy Montgomery, who's authored
50
00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:16.960
a lot of books about animals. And he said to me,
51
00:03:17.379 --> 00:03:20.819
you should write a memoir about the animals in your
52
00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:22.439
life and our animals.
53
00:03:22.900 --> 00:03:26.879
And I said, why? Why would somebody want to read that?
54
00:03:26.900 --> 00:03:29.960
A lot of people have animals. It's a very common thing.
55
00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:32.860
And he said, I don't think it's very common to
56
00:03:32.900 --> 00:03:36.719
have a neurologically impaired squirrel, a disabled sheep, and six
57
00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:39.250
cats with feline leukemia at your house or to go
58
00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:40.990
to Harvard Law School because of your horse.
59
00:03:41.449 --> 00:03:44.990
Wait, you said people have said that's a common thing?
60
00:03:45.270 --> 00:03:47.909
When he suggested that I write a memoir about our
61
00:03:48.009 --> 00:03:51.030
animals and the animals in my life, my initial reaction was,
62
00:03:51.659 --> 00:03:53.719
Why would somebody want to read that?
63
00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:55.819
A lot of people have animals. It's a common thing
64
00:03:55.870 --> 00:03:56.560
to have animals.
65
00:03:56.620 --> 00:03:58.870
And he pointed out that the way that we have
66
00:03:58.909 --> 00:04:01.229
had animals and the animals that have been in my
67
00:04:01.289 --> 00:04:05.569
life and what they've motivated me to do, including at
68
00:04:05.610 --> 00:04:09.990
law school, is not common and is something that was
69
00:04:10.030 --> 00:04:12.469
worth writing about and that people would want to read
70
00:04:12.509 --> 00:04:14.669
and hear about and that there was a larger message
71
00:04:14.770 --> 00:04:18.060
to it. And that's, you know, I actually sort of,
72
00:04:18.379 --> 00:04:21.180
I was on an online group with other writers and
73
00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:23.480
I kind of uphold them as to whether they thought
74
00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:25.689
I should start on the historical novel or on this.
75
00:04:25.790 --> 00:04:30.069
And in talking about why I might write a memoir
76
00:04:30.149 --> 00:04:33.430
about my animals, I said something like, I've had a
77
00:04:33.490 --> 00:04:37.319
series of opinionated animals in one of the other writers
78
00:04:37.379 --> 00:04:39.740
wrote back, well, you obviously need to write that book,
79
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:41.759
and that's the title, and that's how it started.
80
00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.879
I thought it was amazing. It was so interesting, and
81
00:04:44.939 --> 00:04:49.610
I've read a lot of animal-focused books, memoirs, all kinds,
82
00:04:50.029 --> 00:04:53.930
and I really liked it. What made you decide that
83
00:04:54.069 --> 00:04:58.829
you have a neurologically impaired squirrel, cats, a rabbit, you
84
00:04:58.850 --> 00:05:02.980
had a disabled sheep, a horse, and some other characters?
85
00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:07.259
What made you realize that, or, you know, you're so
86
00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:09.899
animal focused or did this just come at an early
87
00:05:09.980 --> 00:05:10.540
age for you?
88
00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:11.300
Yeah.
89
00:05:11.540 --> 00:05:14.220
I mean, I grew up, I was an only child
90
00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:16.459
and I grew up in a house full of animals,
91
00:05:16.779 --> 00:05:19.079
all of whom were rescued.
92
00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:20.920
Most of the cats just showed up.
93
00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:26.620
A couple came from the pound and my parents treated
94
00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:30.480
the animals as part of our family. I think I
95
00:05:30.779 --> 00:05:34.009
kind of viewed them as siblings in some way. And,
96
00:05:34.029 --> 00:05:36.629
you know, at the point when I was eight years old,
97
00:05:36.750 --> 00:05:39.790
I started taking riding lessons at this hack stable.
98
00:05:39.610 --> 00:05:40.250
In my town.
99
00:05:40.389 --> 00:05:43.589
My mom wanted me to take horseback riding lessons. And
100
00:05:44.209 --> 00:05:47.720
I met this horse Shire there who I fell madly
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in love with, who had a leg injury. And when
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he was going to be sold for slaughter, my parents
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rescued him and I became his caregiver and champion, you know,
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and protector. At the age of nine. So my life
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was very shaped from an early age by the animals
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in my life and by the ethic of rescue and
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caring for animals and viewing them as people and providing
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them the same kind of care and respect that you
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would another human.
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You focused a lot on animals that were, you know,
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animals with, for lack of a better way to say it,
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like issues, you know, that had more older or had
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something wrong with them. The animals that, you know, are
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kind of left behind in a way. Why were you
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drawn to those animals?
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I don't know if it's that I was particularly drawn
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to them or if I was able to see who
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they were beyond that. And because other people couldn't, they
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were in a position where they needed somebody to take
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care of them. I mean, I think that's how a
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lot of the animals ended up in my home when
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I was young. And, you know, I was not drawn
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to my horse Shire, who really was my soulmate. I
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was not drawn to him when I was eight because
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he had a leg injury. I didn't even know he
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had a leg injury when I met him. I was
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drawn to him because he was very... funny and smart
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and personable and I was drawn to his personality but
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I ended up spending a lot of my life with
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him because he had an injury that was going to
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result in his death because to the people around him
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he was mostly worth what he could do for them
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in terms of being ridden and earning money so with
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him and with a lot of the others I don't
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think it's that I was drawn to them because of
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their disabilities or age or other issues, but that I
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ended up with them because of those issues or their
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age because they had nowhere else to go.
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Thank you. So was there a particular cat in all
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of the cats that you adopted that made you really
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change the way you understood animals or your relationship with them?
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I've had so many cats.
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I mean, I grew up with seven cats and I've
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probably had more than 30 of my own. And they've
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all affected me a lot. I think one who I
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think about often in the way that you're asking is
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Teddy Bear, who's in the book. I was actually going to,
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I could read a couple of pages if you want about,
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I was thinking of reading how Teddy Bear came into
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my life. But the reason, you know, he had pretty
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severe health issues and disabilities, but he also had the
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biggest attitude of any cat I've ever seen.
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Known.
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And I think, you know, what he taught me is
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that the way that we look at life and our
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attitude toward life and towards others and what we think
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of ourselves really does not have to be limited by
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anything physical or any part of our circumstance.
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It might make a little bit more sense if it's okay.
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I can maybe just read like two pages about how
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he came into, into our lives and I can talk
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about him a While my group and I were fighting
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to get TNR, that's Trapneuter Return, allowed in my town,
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the business administrator of the next town called and asked
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for help.
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Their only apartment.
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Complex was completely overrun with feral cats. I went to
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assess and encountered a situation that was a cross between
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Where's Waldo and a Stephen King novel. The sprawling complex
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was practically carpeted with cats. They were in every walkway,
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every parking lot, and spilling out of every dumpster.
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Adults and kittens, lots of kittens.
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I quickly organized a TNR program in that town, and
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one of the residents agreed to foster the kittens while
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I set up an adoption program. Her living room turned
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into a nursery school.
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For tiny felines.
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One night, she called to say that while she was
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checking traps at the apartments, a couple had come out
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of an apartment holding a very tiny, trembling, and mostly
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hairless kitten they said they'd found outside and had been
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trying to care for. volunteer thought the couple seemed hopped.
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Up and surmised the kitten had somehow accessed meth.
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She convinced them to hand him over and she took
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him home, but he needed to see a vet first
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thing in the morning. She estimated he was four weeks
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old since he was able to eat on his own,
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but said he was the size of a.
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Two- or three-week-old and couldn't move around much on his own.
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I picked the kitten up the next morning and took
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him to a vet who was helping us. The vet
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didn't know what to make of the tiny, bald, shaking kitten.
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The kitten seemed to have a neurological problem affecting his
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movement as well as several different infections.
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He was anemic and covered with fleas.
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His face was oddly round and his ears were about
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twice as long as those of other kittens and sprouted thick.
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Tufts of the only fur on his body.
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He looked like a feline version of Yoda. I asked
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the vet if the kitten would make it. Well, he said,
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every other kitten I've seen who looked like this has
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made it. You've seen other kittens who look like this?
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I asked hopefully. No, he replied, not a single one.
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Have you? After the appointment, I had to bring the
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kitten to my own house for an hour until the
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volunteer who was fostering him got home. Because he was
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too small for flea treatment and still needed a bath
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to get them off, I didn't bring him in the house. Also,
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truth be told, I didn't think Gray would react kindly
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to me bringing him in. When I'd started with the
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TNR business, I'd promised it wouldn't result in me bringing
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the cats home. So it was that Gray came out
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onto the front porch, where I was sitting with a tiny, sick,
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mostly hairless kitten with a face that looked like Yoda's,
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who was trembling all over while holding onto my finger
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with his front paws through the grate of the carrier.
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I was ready for a fight. I could barely get
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myself to look at the kitten. His appearance was so sickly,
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so strange, so alien-like. I cringed at what Gray's reaction
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would be and opened my mouth to tell him the
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kitten would be gone within the hour. But Gray's face
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lit up and he exclaimed, Oh my God, I've never
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seen a kitten this close.
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This is what they look like?
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He's so cute.
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I blinked in disbelief.
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He'd never seen a kitten up close and he thought
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this was what they.
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Normally look like?
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And he thought he was cute? I knew at that
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moment that we were going to adopt the kitten. It
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was all over Gray's face and really who else was.
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Going to adopt him.
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He clearly had a long and uncertain medical road ahead
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of him.
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Thank you. That was great. You and your husband, very
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patient and amazing people. There was a part in the book,
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I still remember this, where when you got to later
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when you were pregnant with your child and you said something,
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I don't remember exactly, but You know, I might use
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the card that I'm carrying his fetus so he can't
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deny me for adopting, I think, yet another animal. But
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I was like, laugh out loud, funny. I can't even imagine.
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You were at the vet. You probably could be a
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veterinarian with how much? Do you ever feel like that,
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that you could probably be a veterinarian with all the
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caretaking you've done, especially with the cats?
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My whole life, people have asked me why, if I
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was going to be a vet or why I didn't
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go to vet school. And And sometimes when I'm in
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vet or medical offices, I get asked if I'm in
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the medical profession, just from all the often unfortunate experience
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I've had.
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With medical issues with animals.
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But I don't think I could have ever become a
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vet because it requires too much, not only losing of
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animals and euthanasia, but dealing with humans who don't actually
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want to put in the time and care that's required
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to care for animals. sick or elderly or disabled animals
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and who ask for them to be euthanized or who
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don't have the resources to. I'm in a very different
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position doing what I can through rescue and advocacy than
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I would be as a vet.
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And I'm so.
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Grateful that the vets who have helped the animals in
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my life didn't have that perspective and went through vet
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school and do what they do. But it's not something
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that I ever really considered.
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We talked about your horse. When you talked about Shire,
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you said that Shire was the disabled horse, correct?
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Yeah, he had a leg disability.
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He had been a police horse and had an injury
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on the police force.
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So Shire had a great impact on your life. I
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know that you had him when you were fairly young.
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Yeah, I met him when I was eight, and I
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became his caregiver when I was nine. And he lived
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until I was 22.
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Do you think he changed you for life as far
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as your relationship with animals?
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I think he changed me for life in terms of
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my relationship with everyone and with the world. I think
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he was sort of the defining relationship in my life.
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You know, I refer to him a lot as my soulmate,
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and I really feel like that. I grew up in
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a home where there was a lot of caretaking of
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animals going on. But I was a child. I wasn't
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the person who was responsible. And I think becoming... responsible
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for him at the age of nine definitely shaped who
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I was growing up in terms of a caregiving ethic
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and a type of responsibility, and also the fact that
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I needed to advocate for him all the time to
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get the care that he needed, to get access to
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things like pasture, finding barns where we could be I
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think it's a little bit different now. There are more
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people that are caring for horses that they don't ride,
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but it was a very unusual thing at the time.
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And people at most of the barns were sort of,
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you know, quote, horse people who had their horses because
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they rode them. And if their horses became unable to
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be ridden, they got rid of them in one way
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or another, selling them, euthanizing them. And My caring for
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Shire and my parents paying Shire's bills when I wasn't
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riding him seemed almost offensive to a lot of them
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and maybe kind of threatening, maybe threatening in some way,
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because I think they were able to justify in their minds,
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you know, to say that they loved their horses, but
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justify not caring for them if they weren't able to
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be ridden.
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And I think that my.
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That Shire's existence and my relationship with him challenged that
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to some extent. And so from a very young age,
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I was having to kind of defend his worth and
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why he was alive and why he deserved to have
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access to what other horses.
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Had access to.
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And I think in a lot of ways that probably
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made me the advocate that I am. And we just
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also had a very intense bond that I think probably
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influenced the way that I've been open to other animals
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and also other humans in my life.
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Okay, we're going to take a short break and we'll
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be right back. Talk to the Paw.
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Hi, this is Amy Stewart.
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Hi, I'm Jane Lynch.
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This is Mandy Boyd.
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Hi there, I'm Kate Walsh. This is Catherine Tygo.
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There's only one station that gives you the scoop on
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wagging tongues and tails. And who's walking who in Renton, Tinseltown.
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PetLife Radio, the tail wagger. Let's talk pets. Let's talk pets.
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On PetLife Radio.
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PetLife Radio.
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PetLifeRadio.com.
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Welcome back, everyone. We're talking to Michelle Lerner. She wrote
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the book, A Series of Opinionated Animals, a memoir. So, Michelle,
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also in the book, you have a disabled sheep that
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learned to herd cats while wearing children's skateboard pads. Just
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reading that makes me go, what? Like, what? How did
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you do that? But I loved it in the book.
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How in the world did that happen? How did you
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end up adopting a sheep that herded cats and wore
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special knee pads?
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So in 2000, I was a legal aid lawyer at
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that time in Boston, and Gray and I bought a
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house and moved into a rural area in central Massachusetts.
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And we had three big dogs. And I really missed
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00:18:05.670 --> 00:18:09.170
having cats, and he really didn't want to adopt any
348
00:18:09.190 --> 00:18:13.069
more animals. And so I started volunteering at a local
349
00:18:13.150 --> 00:18:16.170
cat shelter that was an unusual cat shelter. It was
350
00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:19.759
unusual in that it was attached to a house and
351
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.319
it was sort of owned and run by the person
352
00:18:22.380 --> 00:18:25.980
who lived in the house. It was no-kill at a
353
00:18:26.019 --> 00:18:30.619
time that most shelters were not no-kill. Even she took
354
00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:33.119
in and took care of cats with feline leukemia, which
355
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.289
nobody else was really, or very few shelters were doing.
356
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.630
She also took in a lot of other animals that
357
00:18:39.670 --> 00:18:43.720
were not cats. And when I showed up one time
358
00:18:43.779 --> 00:18:48.500
for my volunteer shift, the garage was open and there
359
00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.839
was a lamb in the garage in a little puppy enclosure.
360
00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:57.200
And she was kneeling on her front legs. And I
361
00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.279
went over to see her and she put one of
362
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:02.799
the legs out in front of her, the foot, but
363
00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:05.119
it remained bent. And the other one stayed on its
364
00:19:05.740 --> 00:19:08.619
knee while she ran away from me and hid behind
365
00:19:08.660 --> 00:19:12.690
a cage. And When I went in to ask what
366
00:19:12.809 --> 00:19:15.029
the deal was with the lamb in the garage, it
367
00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:18.609
turned out that another volunteer who lived in New Hampshire
368
00:19:18.650 --> 00:19:22.269
next to a sheep farm had learned that this lamb
369
00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:25.109
was born unable to straighten her legs and that the
370
00:19:25.250 --> 00:19:27.130
farmer was going to kill her at three months old.
371
00:19:27.750 --> 00:19:30.920
And she scooped up the lamb and brought her to
372
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:32.400
the cat shelter and left her there.
373
00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:34.359
So they named her Lambie.
374
00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:36.519
They had this weird idea they were going to be
375
00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.759
able to figure out how to straighten her legs through
376
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.619
physical therapy, which didn't work. I tried getting her surgery,
377
00:19:42.660 --> 00:19:45.849
which didn't work. And she eventually was moved into the
378
00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.339
feral cat yard where she lived with cats until she.
379
00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:52.740
was two years old. We moved to New Jersey and
380
00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:53.500
took her with us.
381
00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:58.609
During that time, she really grew up with cats and
382
00:19:59.210 --> 00:20:03.049
had a group of cats that followed her around. As
383
00:20:03.289 --> 00:20:07.230
she got bigger, she started getting bloody knees from walking
384
00:20:07.329 --> 00:20:10.490
on them. We tried to figure out a lot of
385
00:20:10.549 --> 00:20:13.109
different ways of addressing that. And the thing that ended
386
00:20:13.150 --> 00:20:17.549
up working was a child's elbow pad for skateboarding. We
387
00:20:17.569 --> 00:20:19.210
used to go to a skate shop to get her
388
00:20:19.529 --> 00:20:22.990
her knee pads. So she wore these knee pads. And
389
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.319
when we moved to our house in New Jersey, we
390
00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:28.839
had a few cats and we had a fenced in
391
00:20:28.859 --> 00:20:31.819
yard with cat fencing on top to keep them in.
392
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:34.400
We only let them out though still if we were
393
00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.180
with them. And Lammy was used to living with cats,
394
00:20:37.220 --> 00:20:39.569
so she liked them and liked to spend time with them.
395
00:20:39.910 --> 00:20:42.970
And when it was time for them to come in
396
00:20:43.009 --> 00:20:44.430
and we would try to get them in and they
397
00:20:44.450 --> 00:20:47.089
wouldn't want to come in, she would run around and
398
00:20:47.690 --> 00:20:51.049
nudge them and sort of herd them to the door.
399
00:20:51.069 --> 00:20:54.559
So yeah, it's totally contradicting the idea that you can't
400
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:55.210
herd cats.
401
00:20:55.700 --> 00:20:56.440
Lammy had it down.
402
00:20:56.970 --> 00:20:57.329
Yeah.
403
00:20:57.589 --> 00:20:59.529
Hey, when there's a will, there's a way, you know,
404
00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:02.789
and animals have their own way of vibing with each other.
405
00:21:02.950 --> 00:21:05.410
They just do. And I haven't seen that a lot.
406
00:21:05.509 --> 00:21:08.109
The most I've had is I'm way more basic and
407
00:21:08.150 --> 00:21:10.920
boring than you. I've had dogs and cats together, but
408
00:21:11.140 --> 00:21:14.799
you've had the whole, you know, whole menagerie. Let's talk
409
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.660
about a little bit more about your background because you
410
00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.319
eventually went into animal law and you also helped establish
411
00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:26.009
one of the nation's early animal law programs at Harvard.
412
00:21:26.509 --> 00:21:28.769
How did you do that? Why was that important for you?
413
00:21:29.329 --> 00:21:32.730
So at the time that I graduated from college, that
414
00:21:32.750 --> 00:21:36.650
I was finishing college, my horse Shire was really very
415
00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:39.849
clearly nearing the end of his life. He was elderly
416
00:21:39.890 --> 00:21:43.529
and his legs were getting much worse. And I was
417
00:21:43.569 --> 00:21:46.670
interested in going to anthropology graduate school, but I was
418
00:21:46.730 --> 00:21:48.519
not able to sort of think about what I was
419
00:21:48.579 --> 00:21:52.460
going to do or apply for school or for career
420
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.220
type jobs because I was very focused on being with
421
00:21:56.259 --> 00:21:57.700
him and taking care of him at the end of
422
00:21:57.740 --> 00:22:01.619
his life. And that summer after college, I got a
423
00:22:01.660 --> 00:22:05.089
job working at the farm where he was living. And
424
00:22:05.109 --> 00:22:08.690
when he died, I mean, he was euthanized and he
425
00:22:08.950 --> 00:22:11.990
became completely paralyzed in his back end at the end
426
00:22:12.029 --> 00:22:16.130
of that summer. I was very disoriented, not only from
427
00:22:16.170 --> 00:22:18.990
losing him, but because, you know, I just graduated college.
428
00:22:19.029 --> 00:22:21.430
All of my friends had sort of moved on to
429
00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:24.299
things and had five-year, 10-year plans, and I did not.
430
00:22:24.890 --> 00:22:28.410
And I read about Gary Francione, who is an animal
431
00:22:28.450 --> 00:22:33.420
law professor at Rutgers Law School. And I'd never heard
432
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:35.940
of an animal lawyer. You know, there were some, but
433
00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:39.680
there were not many. Or an animal law program. He
434
00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:41.890
taught a couple of classes.
435
00:22:41.549 --> 00:22:42.349
And he had a clinic.
436
00:22:42.769 --> 00:22:46.630
So I started looking into going there, having just lost
437
00:22:46.769 --> 00:22:50.549
Shire and having sort of advocated for him. his whole life,
438
00:22:50.630 --> 00:22:52.849
I kind of felt like the best way to honor
439
00:22:53.109 --> 00:22:56.690
him was, once I found out about this program, was
440
00:22:56.849 --> 00:23:01.349
to become a lawyer for animals. Part of how I
441
00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:03.779
found out about Gary Francione is I read this really
442
00:23:03.819 --> 00:23:07.200
incredible book that he'd written called Animals, Property, and the
443
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.460
Law that talked about why it was really impossible to
444
00:23:11.990 --> 00:23:13.950
to help animals on any kind of large scale through
445
00:23:13.970 --> 00:23:17.289
the legal system because of their classification as property and
446
00:23:17.390 --> 00:23:20.049
what would need to happen to change that. And, you know,
447
00:23:20.089 --> 00:23:22.910
being 22 years old, I decided that was going to
448
00:23:22.930 --> 00:23:25.259
be my mission, that I would work on changing that,
449
00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:27.720
and I would try to go to this program. But
450
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:33.099
my then-boyfriend, Gray, was leaving to go to graduate school
451
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:38.880
at Harvard the next year, and my mother, without my knowing,
452
00:23:38.900 --> 00:23:42.089
you know, this was the time of paper applications, sent
453
00:23:42.150 --> 00:23:45.289
away for an application to Harvard Law School, filled it out,
454
00:23:45.349 --> 00:23:48.779
attached my transcripts, and then just convinced me to write
455
00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:51.000
the essay and the things that needed to actually be
456
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:55.680
done by me. And I wrote an essay about Shire
457
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:59.440
and about wanting to practice animal law, which Harvard Law
458
00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:02.000
School did not teach and most law schools did not teach.
459
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.569
And when I got in, I went because that's where
460
00:24:05.609 --> 00:24:09.809
Gray was going. And there were no relevant classes there,
461
00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:14.460
I was just really focusing on getting through the first
462
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.940
year of law school. I took a two-week summer animal
463
00:24:17.980 --> 00:24:22.869
law class at Vermont Law School. But in my second year,
464
00:24:22.890 --> 00:24:26.269
I lived off campus, so I had a locker at
465
00:24:26.289 --> 00:24:28.829
the law school to keep my things in. And people
466
00:24:28.869 --> 00:24:31.950
were putting, you know, it was fall, it was election season,
467
00:24:31.970 --> 00:24:34.980
people were putting political stickers on their locker. And I
468
00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:38.009
put an animal rights sticker on my locker. It said
469
00:24:38.049 --> 00:24:40.490
something like, was your oven cleaner force fed.
470
00:24:40.329 --> 00:24:40.950
To an animal?
471
00:24:41.609 --> 00:24:43.210
And when I came in the next day, my locker
472
00:24:43.230 --> 00:24:46.720
was completely covered top to bottom, like a six foot
473
00:24:46.779 --> 00:24:49.940
tall locker with notes taped to it. A lot of
474
00:24:50.019 --> 00:24:55.220
really hostile unsigned notes. And then a bunch of notes
475
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:59.470
responding to it by people who signed their names. And
476
00:24:59.829 --> 00:25:03.559
I contacted every one of the students who had written
477
00:25:03.619 --> 00:25:06.759
some kind of supportive response and signed their name and
478
00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:10.579
started an animal law student group. There were a few
479
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:13.099
of those in the country, but not many at all,
480
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:17.740
like really a handful. And there's an organization that's still around,
481
00:25:17.779 --> 00:25:22.089
the Animal Legal Defense Fund. And I petitioned them to
482
00:25:22.130 --> 00:25:25.670
let us become the second student Animal Legal Defense Fund
483
00:25:25.710 --> 00:25:27.470
chapter in the country. And they said they were only
484
00:25:27.490 --> 00:25:28.910
interested in having one that was at.
485
00:25:28.869 --> 00:25:29.609
Lewis and Clark.
486
00:25:29.630 --> 00:25:31.829
They didn't think it would work at Harvard or at
487
00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:34.529
other places, it would be too much work. And I really,
488
00:25:34.789 --> 00:25:39.509
really harassed them about it until they agreed to sponsor
489
00:25:39.569 --> 00:25:43.089
us and let us become a student chapter. And we did,
490
00:25:43.170 --> 00:25:46.809
and we started having programs. And then as I was graduating,
491
00:25:46.869 --> 00:25:50.230
we lobbied for an animal law class to be taught
492
00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:54.490
at Harvard. And we convinced the administration to do it,
493
00:25:55.410 --> 00:25:58.630
The first class was taught after I left. I wasn't
494
00:25:58.670 --> 00:26:01.529
able to take it there. And as a result, I
495
00:26:01.769 --> 00:26:03.869
went into legal aid for 10 years before I came
496
00:26:03.910 --> 00:26:08.119
back to animal law. But that class was so popular
497
00:26:08.150 --> 00:26:13.339
and it was so publicized that Harvard Law School, because
498
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:16.339
of its name, has started an animal law class that
499
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:20.619
Bob Barker from The Price is Right donated a very
500
00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:24.940
large donation to help start an animal law program there.
501
00:26:25.220 --> 00:26:27.559
And at this point, there's been the animal, the Harvard
502
00:26:27.579 --> 00:26:30.819
Law School Animal Law and Policy Program has been in existence.
503
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:32.859
They're having their 25th anniversary.
504
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.740
I think everything he's done has been amazing. Where do
505
00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:41.049
you think we are now as far as with animal rights?
506
00:26:41.309 --> 00:26:44.529
I mean, there's some states that are very progressive and
507
00:26:44.609 --> 00:26:47.569
some states that are not. There's things that probably should
508
00:26:47.609 --> 00:26:52.289
be federal law, you know, like declawing. But there's, I
509
00:26:52.349 --> 00:26:55.609
think my personal opinion, and obviously I'm not an attorney
510
00:26:56.009 --> 00:27:00.430
or a lawyer, but I think we have, we've made progress,
511
00:27:01.109 --> 00:27:03.869
but we have a long way to go. You're the
512
00:27:03.950 --> 00:27:07.519
expert though, being an attorney, where do you, what do
513
00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:07.950
you think?
514
00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:12.740
I think that there has been progress on very specific
515
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:19.299
types of protections for animals, but very little progress in
516
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:23.960
terms of rights for animals in this country. And the
517
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.809
difference between a protection and a right is that a
518
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:32.809
right is something that you can enforce and protect and
519
00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:37.369
that the government or other parties cannot interfere with except
520
00:27:37.549 --> 00:27:41.759
in very extreme situations. Like if you have a First
521
00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:44.619
Amendment right to speech, you yourself can defend your right
522
00:27:44.660 --> 00:27:47.359
to that and the government can only interfere with it
523
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:50.410
if they have a very important interest that can't be
524
00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:54.009
met in any other way besides restricting your speech, like
525
00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:56.750
that you can't yell fire in a theater or something
526
00:27:56.789 --> 00:28:00.920
like that. Animals don't have rights in the United States
527
00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:04.759
because they're not treated as people. They're treated as property.
528
00:28:04.900 --> 00:28:09.480
So if they're given a particular protection, it's really up to,
529
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:14.240
you know, if it's a protection that is regulation, it
530
00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:17.519
has to be enforced by an agency, If it's in
531
00:28:17.579 --> 00:28:20.140
criminal law, it would have to be enforced by the
532
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:25.180
criminal justice system. And the animals themselves do not have
533
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.700
a right to enforce it. And you might think, well,
534
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:30.940
how would they possibly anyway? An animal can't go to court.
535
00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:34.089
But neither can a baby or a child or somebody
536
00:28:34.130 --> 00:28:37.809
with dementia or who's unconscious in a hospital. And there
537
00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:40.630
are ways for them to enforce their rights by people
538
00:28:41.130 --> 00:28:44.730
representing their interests and being a plaintiff on their behalf.
539
00:28:45.589 --> 00:28:51.069
There are also non-human persons recognized by law, like corporations
540
00:28:51.269 --> 00:28:55.980
are recognized in this country as having the rights of
541
00:28:56.019 --> 00:28:58.180
a person in a lot of ways, First Amendment rights,
542
00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:03.059
other rights, but animals are not. And so even, say,
543
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:06.970
endangered species protections, there have been a lot of lawsuits
544
00:29:07.589 --> 00:29:11.710
to protect against violations of the Endangered Species Act and
545
00:29:11.750 --> 00:29:16.359
protect endangered species rights. But the lawsuits, they're normally filed
546
00:29:16.460 --> 00:29:20.079
by environmental nonprofits, not on behalf of the animals. They
547
00:29:20.099 --> 00:29:23.500
wouldn't be able to. They're filed on behalf of human
548
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:28.849
members by filing affidavits that those human members go regularly
549
00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:32.009
and hike in this particular area and either see or
550
00:29:32.069 --> 00:29:35.130
want to see this species and that their own life
551
00:29:35.349 --> 00:29:39.980
is affected by the violation of the Endangered Species Act.
552
00:29:40.059 --> 00:29:41.220
Act that affects the animal.
553
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:44.759
So it's not across the board internationally that animals are
554
00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:47.099
treated like this. There are a few countries that have
555
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:52.259
recognized in their constitutions or in other ways that animals
556
00:29:52.779 --> 00:29:55.059
are sentient beings, that they have some of the rights
557
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.839
of a person, that lawsuits can be filed on their behalf, etc.,
558
00:29:59.730 --> 00:30:01.569
That hasn't happened in the United States.
559
00:30:01.589 --> 00:30:04.990
We're progressive as I think we think we are. There's
560
00:30:05.029 --> 00:30:08.309
a lot that we're way behind. We're running out of time.
561
00:30:08.329 --> 00:30:09.630
I have a couple more questions.
562
00:30:09.869 --> 00:30:10.130
Okay.
563
00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:13.150
Let's talk about your book again. One of the themes
564
00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:15.750
running through your memoir is that animals can teach us
565
00:30:15.789 --> 00:30:18.430
how to be better humans. What do you think that
566
00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:24.059
animals understand about compassion that we as humans sometimes forget?
567
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:29.259
I think that animals do not generally understand have the
568
00:30:29.299 --> 00:30:32.940
sense that they need to deserve things in order to
569
00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:36.119
be able to have what they need. I don't think
570
00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:39.720
they generally feel like they need to meet particular standards.
571
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:43.890
Often they live in situations with humans where they are
572
00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:47.549
only allowed access to resources or to get what they
573
00:30:47.589 --> 00:30:50.690
need if they behave in very particular ways, and they
574
00:30:50.730 --> 00:30:51.950
learn to do that.
575
00:30:52.009 --> 00:30:52.950
That's called training.
576
00:30:53.470 --> 00:30:56.680
But I think on a fundamental level, they do not
577
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:03.750
look at their own quirks or differences as things that
578
00:31:04.750 --> 00:31:09.099
should limit their access to the world or negatively affect.
579
00:31:08.859 --> 00:31:09.599
Them in any way.
580
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:14.640
And I think they're much more open to accepting themselves
581
00:31:14.819 --> 00:31:18.700
and each other and us for exactly who we are,
582
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.990
no matter how different we are or what our quirks
583
00:31:23.069 --> 00:31:27.210
or faults are. And I think that's something that most
584
00:31:27.269 --> 00:31:29.400
humans have a a hard time doing.
585
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.029
What is the one thing you hope our listening audience
586
00:31:33.130 --> 00:31:37.369
takes away from reading your book, A Series of Opinionated Animals?
587
00:31:37.970 --> 00:31:42.930
I think an understanding of animals as people. They're not humans,
588
00:31:43.430 --> 00:31:46.779
but I think the term person is not just interchangeable
589
00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:50.619
with the term human, that a person is a sentient
590
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:54.240
being with a personality and interests of their own, and
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that I view other animals as people and as individuals.
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And I would hope that readers of the book would
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come away with that also. I think a lot of
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people do recognize that with the animals in their lives,
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often cats or dogs or horses, but I think it's
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harder for a lot of people to think of animals
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00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:18.619
that they're generally only aware of as species, like, quote,
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00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:22.680
farm animals, like chickens or sheep or wild animals, like
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00:32:23.019 --> 00:32:27.890
squirrels or foxes or rabbits, as each being an individual
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person that probably have widely varying personalities. And I hope
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that by, you know, telling the stories that I tell
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of animals of different species, that it becomes clear that
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it's really not just about cats and dogs, that every
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animal of every species is an individual.
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00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:49.359
Thank you so much. Where can people find your book?
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Well, it's coming out October 6th. There've been some issues
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with the distributor, so I don't know what the best
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00:32:56.420 --> 00:32:59.279
way is right now, but It is up for pre-order
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00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:02.920
on bookshop.org, which is where I usually like to send
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00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:07.619
people because it supports independent bookstores. But it's also available
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00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:13.809
on Amazon and on Barnes & Noble online, some individual bookstores.
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00:33:13.849 --> 00:33:16.759
Hopefully it'll be at libraries. But at this point, people
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00:33:16.779 --> 00:33:19.299
should be able to pre-order it if they're hearing this
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before October 6th or just outright order it if it's
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00:33:22.170 --> 00:33:27.710
after October 6th on bookshop.org, Barnes & Noble, or Amazon,
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00:33:27.950 --> 00:33:30.529
or really any other place that they normally would buy books.
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00:33:30.950 --> 00:33:32.869
Michelle, I want to thank you so much for coming
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on Best Bets for Pets and sharing your book, A
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00:33:35.809 --> 00:33:40.740
Series of Opinionated Animals. Listening audience, that is by Michelle Lerner.
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Thank you so much for having me. It's been really
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great to talk to you.
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I hope everyone enjoyed this show. Thank you again, Michelle,
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for coming on the show. The book is called A
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00:33:50.309 --> 00:33:54.690
Series of Opinionated Animals by Michelle Lerner. I want to
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00:33:54.730 --> 00:33:58.450
thank my crew. Thank you, Dennis, Charlotte, and Molly for
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00:33:58.910 --> 00:34:01.420
being by my side while I read the book. It's
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a fascinating book. It's written so well and it's so interesting.
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So please check it out. And remember, keep listening because
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you never know what we'll have next on Best Bets
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00:34:13.150 --> 00:34:13.510
for Pets.
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Let's Talk Pets, every week on demand, only on PetLifeRadio.com.
