Matt Carey (00:00.72)
Dude, I need a hack up.
Wilhelm (00:00.94)
What? We're back. interesting. I feel like this is always the length hair you have.
Matt Carey (00:08.087)
No, it gets a lot smaller, shorter on the sides.
Wilhelm (00:12.352)
Is this a male thing that every haircut looks the same?
Matt Carey (00:17.06)
No, it starts coming out on the sides and then I start looking at the side and then
Wilhelm (00:20.564)
I see, I see. But your sideburns looking pretty tidy still. Usually that's my tell for my own haircut readiness when they are like super messy.
Matt Carey (00:29.742)
Yeah, you just gotta trim them,
Wilhelm (00:32.686)
Did you trim them yourself?
Matt Carey (00:35.098)
Well, like, if they get too long, yeah, if they're like down here, that's like really bad. I look awful.
Wilhelm (00:40.632)
Damn, I need to go on your level. Should we roll the intro?
Matt Carey (00:43.876)
Yeah, let's do it.
Matt Carey (00:54.928)
So a new model did drop, Opus 4.7, baby!
Wilhelm (00:55.502)
The thing is, so when we made the intro, it was a little bit sarcastic, right? Like, everything's changing, yeah, right. Prompt ups, yeah, right. But now it's kind of like, shit, everything is changing. Everything has changed and everything continues to change. Maybe we need a new intro. Whoa, did we miss our own birthday? No.
Matt Carey (01:15.994)
Have we been going over a year now?
Matt Carey (01:21.978)
think we missed our birthday,
Wilhelm (01:29.28)
May 14th, first episode. Okay, we have not yet. Almost. We had some big chains on the first episode. Where can you see this? On the first episode, album art. Look at that, what happened to that?
Matt Carey (01:31.5)
Okay, okay, we've got to do a birthday episode.
Matt Carey (01:53.037)
yeah, the chains! Yeah, that was like baller.
Wilhelm (01:57.646)
Ha
That was good. That was good stuff. Okay, that's cool. We can celebrate our first birthday. All right, man. I feel like we have a lot to get through, You've had a massive week. How are you feeling? How's the energy levels?
Matt Carey (02:13.168)
It's great. I've had, I think three massive weeks.
Wilhelm (02:20.546)
Three, okay, yeah.
Matt Carey (02:23.504)
I arrived back home yesterday and I left, so it was the 16th of April yesterday, just to put it in perspective. And I left home, I'm just checking. My flight was on the 30th of March.
Wilhelm (02:32.994)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (02:41.976)
Damn, you haven't been home since. Whoa, okay, that's huge. That's actually, that's a lot.
Matt Carey (02:42.928)
to the US? No. Yeah.
Matt Carey (02:49.558)
Yeah, so like almost three weeks. Yeah. And in that time, in that time I did MCP maintainers day, which like was really good in New York. Then the MCP dev summit. Then met a bunch of people that I'd never met before, but internet friends online in New York. I went to London, had like a couple of days in London before AI engineer, bunch of side events around AI engineer.
Wilhelm (02:53.25)
That's a lot.
Matt Carey (03:18.736)
Obviously, that was my talk, which was why everyone was there. It was incredible, as you might expect. And then I went on ETN, which was very, cool. Yeah, that was good crap. Yeah, had a panel talk with Sunil, which was great. In AI engineer, yeah, obviously did my talk, watched Sunil's talk, was really, really good. And then had a wedding that weekend. I was best man at a wedding.
Wilhelm (03:22.764)
Mm-hmm.
Very much so. my god. The European Technology Network.
Matt Carey (03:48.432)
which was hectic. Yeah, endorse it. And then I hung around in London for a few days afterwards. There was Cloudflare Connect on Wednesday. And then on Thursday, I got an early flight back to Lisbon, stopped off at Cafe Cursor for the afternoon. Really, really cool event. then yeah, arrived back yesterday evening. Had nine hours sleep last night. And did I beat you on sleep school last night?
Wilhelm (03:49.036)
That's awesome. Where was the wedding in the UK?
Wilhelm (04:09.068)
living the life.
Wilhelm (04:17.132)
Ooh, let's check. And it's also Cloudflare Agent Week, of course, this week.
Matt Carey (04:20.644)
Yeah, and this week, the big week is like this week is agents week. And so that all the big releases came out this week, which was hectic. It was very hectic.
Wilhelm (04:29.93)
And the Cloudflare stock has had a tumultuous week as well, which is another layer on top of this crazy time.
Matt Carey (04:35.236)
Yeah.
I'm not sure I can really talk about the stock price. I'm not sure. Maybe we have. Yeah, I'm not gonna.
Wilhelm (04:44.46)
Yeah, you shouldn't. I will comment on the stock price. It's gone up and then it's gone down and then it's gone up again.
Matt Carey (04:54.938)
Sick.
Wilhelm (04:57.696)
Okay, let me, I'll, okay, just to make it not so abstract, I will just say one sentence and then we can move on from the stock price. I used to have almost my entire stock portfolio in Cloudflare stock. I've now actually divested it quite a bit so that it's now a lot of core weave stock as well. And we don't have to go into all of that as well.
But all my various agents have been saying, hey, do you really want to keep all of your money in a single stock? Maybe that's not the best idea. Diversification is a good thing. And then, of course, I think there's like, yeah, well, I feel like the public markets aren't as AI-pilled or AGI-pilled as the people in San Francisco are. And I am one of those people. So it's good to get across some other stocks that are.
also going to have a big uplift if all this AI stuff works out. But it sounded like what happened. But also I think the public markets are very jumpy. So if I look at CloudFest stock price almost every day, and you can see when it goes through some weird, weird swings. For example, the Anthropic Mythos, is that how you say the thing? Anthropic Mythos model was released. Which also we haven't actually talked about on the pod. I think that happened the day after we last recorded, which is...
that was the day before AI engineer. It sounded like everyone was like, my god, let's sell cybersecurity stocks, which makes no sense. And then Cloudflare seemed to got hit by that and then went down quite a bit, but it's recovered a little since then. And we can leave it at that. You don't have to comment any further. Moving on.
Matt Carey (06:34.84)
Yeah, I don't want to be sued or go to prison. No, I'm just I'm just uploading my watch data. My garment didn't sink last night. So you'll get it in a second. for anyone like no one can see this. So I have like an open claw inspired bot. I think we talked about this and last episode we talked about we should sink our sleep data, didn't we? It was literally last episode. And so
Wilhelm (06:40.054)
wait, okay, you didn't...
Wilhelm (06:46.615)
Okay, okay.
Wilhelm (07:00.386)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (07:03.438)
Yeah, I had a fun experience trying to get around Garmin OAuth, but now I have managed and I have tokens and I can fetch my sleep score from my Clanker. Yeah, although it hasn't uploaded it. Wait.
Wilhelm (07:23.534)
That's another topic we should talk about. Yeah, getting Garmin.
Matt Carey (07:23.898)
Maybe we need to check again. Yeah.
Wilhelm (07:30.232)
data into, I actually think getting your health data into these agents is actually one of the most fun things. There was a big tweet from Patrick Carlson about this today actually, about how he's like having his agent like analyze his genome data and recommend specific tests to do and then do more after you get the test results is like really good use. And obviously Garmin tracks a bunch of your metrics like over time, which is very cool. But then yeah, we talked about.
Matt Carey (07:36.687)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (07:50.608)
you
Wilhelm (07:58.318)
You mentioned this thing which I didn't actually realize that in it was it in whoop that you can see your friends like sleep scores over time or an aura
Matt Carey (08:06.286)
Yeah, so fun. was in Whoop. I'm pretty sure Aura does it as well, but I think it was Whoop that we were speaking about.
Wilhelm (08:15.606)
Okay, okay, cool. And you were saying, actually, all your friends have more like garments and not whoops, and garment also makes a sleep score but it doesn't have the social features, so let's just build it ourselves with all this like age and stuff. And we have, and for the past like what, like over a week now, we're in a fierce sleep score competition.
Matt Carey (08:36.954)
Yeah, I've been losing. I've been losing. Why is it using Chrome? I don't understand. It should just be able to fetch it.
Wilhelm (08:45.658)
I it's probably because of Opus 4.7. It probably needs new instructions,
Matt Carey (08:53.476)
Wait, I'm so confused.
Wilhelm (08:54.03)
Do you pin your models in your clanker?
Matt Carey (08:59.643)
yeah, do you know?
Wilhelm (09:05.698)
Mine just chels out to cloud code SDK. it's, it's, it's just uses.
Matt Carey (09:10.865)
it's whatever the default is?
Wilhelm (09:13.165)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (09:14.768)
Are you crazy?
Wilhelm (09:16.472)
Well, there's a little bit of conflict. Like you can default it to higher thinking effort and stuff.
Matt Carey (09:19.98)
nice. Higher thinking. So I saw that about Opus 4.7 that like in Claude online, they're letting the model decide whether it wants to be higher or not. You know, they adapt. I they have the adaptive name and that means that they're just like, like, which I think is crazy. So I just rebooted my Clanker. think some Chrome sometimes freaks out. think if multiple versions of the Clanker try and use Chrome at the same time.
Wilhelm (09:33.336)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (09:50.084)
They, I don't know if there is some bandwidth problems. Like if I have too many Chrome tabs open, it just all crashes, which is quite sad.
Wilhelm (09:50.495)
Interesting.
Wilhelm (09:58.922)
I actually have an interesting browser thing as well to talk about. But yeah, it's a good point. I should investigate that I'm not falling prey to the adaptive thinking issues that might exist. It seems to default to extra high thinking effort from my manual use. Yeah. Which is also new with 4.7.
Matt Carey (10:16.238)
Okay, crazy crazy, maybe I haven't used the agent again I haven't used the Claude agent SDK in a while and you tell have a play
Wilhelm (10:26.529)
But the sleep score thing is super fun. Although I will say, I mean, you've had a busy week and like sleeping like some, some days like less than six hours. So it makes sense that your sleep scores are a bit low, but I've also had some really bad night's Sorry. I had some really bad night's sleep where it gave me a high sleep score. So yeah, I don't know.
Matt Carey (10:38.648)
Help me.
Matt Carey (10:48.569)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (10:51.984)
So, did you, if you have a look back on our sleep scores, there is one night which for mine was horrific. Like I had, oh yeah, no, so actually it was this one, five hours, 45 minutes sleep and I got surprisingly efficient. It said I was surprisingly efficient. I got 69. You don't send me all your sleep data. You just send me the score. Send me all of your data.
Wilhelm (11:02.044)
yeah.
Wilhelm (11:17.282)
Thanks
Wilhelm (11:21.6)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, that...
Matt Carey (11:22.892)
i did- you just sent me the number i wanna know like resting, heart rate, deep sleep, light, REM
Wilhelm (11:26.38)
Hey, this was the Klanker's decision. This was the Klanker's decision. But yeah, I think that would make this more fun if I send you more data. Although I will say your HRV is a lot more healthy than my HRV.
Matt Carey (11:35.61)
Yeah, I want more.
Matt Carey (11:41.712)
Mine's currently unbalanced. Oh no, it's balanced. It's back to balanced. I'm back to like 70 odd.
Wilhelm (11:46.86)
back to... Yeah, then we can plot more stuff, like can plot steps and stuff. Yeah, okay, I'll ask it to set this up. Yeah. you beat me! Nice.
Matt Carey (11:52.89)
Send me more data. Send me all of your data. Right.
There we go! I beat you! So good! 92! Ha ha!
Wilhelm (12:07.854)
To be fair, we both had good night's sleep last night.
Matt Carey (12:10.458)
Yeah, my first night in my own bed for like almost three weeks. Crazy.
Wilhelm (12:15.99)
If any mutuals want to join this thing, please let us know. It would be quite fun. I guess you don't even have to have a garment. You just have to like somehow figure out how to get your data.
Matt Carey (12:21.455)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (12:24.792)
You just have to send me your arbitrary score between zero and a hundred.
Wilhelm (12:30.75)
Exactly. and then also the way I get the data to you is actually using friends.fyi, which also works. It needs some like web hooks or something.
Matt Carey (12:37.946)
Yeah, it's really good. Do you think? I think I just poll it.
Wilhelm (12:42.85)
You just poll it, yeah, but then it's a little bit annoying because I had like a few nights where I slept in and then it didn't poll at the right time and this kind of thing, so.
Matt Carey (12:49.994)
Hmm. Okay. Yeah. No, but this is a problem because I don't allow inbound connections to my clientele.
Wilhelm (13:00.19)
Yeah, I think, okay, but I think eventually you'll want to find a way to allow that, right? Even if you want this to be very restrictive in like, all inbound connections are like severely audited by a whole separate clanker that is like its own model, like it synthesizes it or sorry, it, what's the word? You just don't want it at all?
Matt Carey (13:01.444)
So you can't webhook me.
Matt Carey (13:17.922)
No. No. No. No. I'm not allowing- I'm not allowing inbound connection because like at that point like I have the lethal trifecta to the clanker like I allow egress. No I don't.
Wilhelm (13:29.838)
But don't, no, but you already have the lethal trifecta by making polling outbound connections.
Matt Carey (13:40.226)
I make a polling outbound connection. No, no, make polling outbound connections to specific things.
Wilhelm (13:40.31)
Right? I could prompt inject.
Wilhelm (13:47.83)
Yeah, but I could prompt inject them, right? That's the same as...
Matt Carey (13:50.114)
you could, you could prompt inject me, but you could prompt inject me inside my server anyway. Like you literally have access to like the whole, you have bash access to my container dude.
Wilhelm (13:58.869)
Yeah.
But that's what I mean. If I already have that access anyway, I as a trusted party should be allowed to, in some form, push some data to you. Don't call it an inbound connection. There needs to be some way I can push some data into your thing.
Matt Carey (14:21.828)
Yeah, we need, like, I would prefer to have like a WebSocket message server or something. And so I would have a key and you would have a key. It would be kind of nice. then you would have to have the other side to, you would have to have like a, we would generate keys basically, and you would have to sign your message with a private key that I accept.
Wilhelm (14:31.49)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (14:43.928)
But you can already, those same guarantees you already get from friends.fyi, right, if it has webhooks. Like if you just allow, if you can just look at the identity of the sender.
Matt Carey (14:56.592)
Yes. Do you sign? Yeah, do you sign everything? No, I would want to be able to decrypt it myself. I'd want to be able to like check the signing myself.
Wilhelm (14:57.9)
Obviously, if you trust my platform, that is.
Wilhelm (15:05.954)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, I mean, we can do that. so there is a, I have a branch where it encrypts, I mean, I think this is a much tougher security than what you were describing just now, but like, you can get like asymmetric public key encryption with your GitHub keys. So like, if you go to github.com,
Matt Carey (15:24.587)
yeah, you can. You can basically sign this. Yeah.
Wilhelm (15:28.854)
Yeah, I actually don't think you have this publicly set up, but usually you can go to getup.com slash username dot keys and then keys will show up and then you can, my clanker can use that key to sign this thing. There's a really cool open source project. It's actually a little involved because I think it does like proper encryption. So it like takes some time and stuff. But then I can, yeah, encrypt this with your key.
Matt Carey (15:36.592)
Mm-mm.
Wilhelm (15:55.47)
and with your public key and then you can decrypt it when it arrives. But I think this is a lot more extreme security than...
Matt Carey (16:03.588)
Yeah, I don't need it to be encrypted in flight. I just want it to be signed. I just want to it came from you. we have some method, because it's peer to peer, right? Like we have some method of communication where like, I know that at least it was your Clanker's domain or your Clanker's machine that sent me that message.
Wilhelm (16:08.181)
Okay.
Wilhelm (16:12.183)
Right, right, right.
Bye.
Wilhelm (16:20.363)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (16:25.613)
Mm-hmm
Yeah, so friends.fyi does guarantee that now because it forces you to have a sender and it doesn't allow unauthed messages anymore. Now that we have the clanker first sign up using gists, it's hard to might, so if you trust my GitHub identity, right, it's like the same as if I left a comment or whatever on your issue. If you trust that, then this is the same thing.
Matt Carey (16:42.746)
Yeah, that's cool.
Matt Carey (16:54.372)
Yeah, no, fair, fair, fair. then I would like, yeah, we would add some sort of method of WebSockets. Sorry, no, we would add some.
Wilhelm (17:00.694)
Yeah, I guess maybe signing gives you some more guarantees. Like maybe it gives you some more like, yeah, I'm sure you could add some JWT thing or whatever.
Matt Carey (17:10.0)
Yeah, what does signing give you? Signing gives you that at certain time you had the ability, you had access to it.
Wilhelm (17:17.664)
It prevents replay attacks or something like that. Something reasonably minor or whatever. I don't know.
Matt Carey (17:20.836)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (17:26.736)
Hmm.
Wilhelm (17:27.384)
Would you not want my sleep data to be replayed against your... Is that a concern?
Matt Carey (17:32.304)
It's not your sleep data that's the problem, it's your...
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelm (17:42.562)
Well, I just think like eventually we all, with agents, right, it's a little bit like this thing where if you embrace it, you can get so many more of these benefits. then everyone, the lethal trapezoid thing obviously is real, prompt injection is real, but also some of these models are pretty good at prompt injection detection. And I think you could build your own little like enclave thing where like any inbound stuff that arrives is actually like audited and like cleaned and like tidied up.
pretty hard before you then let that same data into your main agent loop where it's much more loosey goosey.
Matt Carey (18:20.046)
You could, you could. I think we're getting off topic here. Like I care.
Wilhelm (18:25.454)
Well, I think it's interesting though, because you like, think everyone or I for sure have wanted to build that for myself. haven't yet. Like I actually have a similar set up to you in that, like, I don't really allow any inbound stuff at the moment, but I think it's coming and we have to like figure out how to, and the premise of it is pretty cool. And then Anthropic launched their inbound product recently, right? Like what's it called? Routines or something, which can be webhook initiated.
Matt Carey (18:45.552)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (18:57.486)
Yeah, both, both.
I don't know if any of them have prompt injection endpoints. Opening I used to have like a moderation endpoint, which I'm pretty sure was like a data collection, the data harvest. It was a free moderation endpoint. I'm like, that is a hundred percent a data harvest situation. But I don't know. don't know. It's a cool idea. It's a cool idea. There probably should be some open source package that has some like private list of.
Wilhelm (19:05.934)
Mmm. Not cool.
Wilhelm (19:12.174)
There you go.
Matt Carey (19:29.776)
prompts that you can run over. No, sorry, it wouldn't be private. That just has like some epic list of prompts that you can run over an input to check whether it's legit or not. Just loads of heuristics, and that should probably be public. That would be a good open source idea. Someone should do that.
Wilhelm (19:42.22)
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (19:50.392)
That would be cool, yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Matt Carey (19:52.548)
Because the moderation endpoints, I'm not sure I want moderation endpoints. Like ideally, if this was running on your Mac, you would want local LLM to check the problem.
Wilhelm (19:59.917)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (20:06.606)
Mmm. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, Yep.
Matt Carey (20:10.926)
because you could run like a really small model and then you wouldn't pay extra for it. Cause I don't think you should be paid. That's not really intelligence you need there. It's like pattern matching. So yeah, sure. You use some LLMs, but you should also use some like reject heuristics, a bunch of other, like a bunch of other methods just to see it. It's like, is this a weird, is this weird? Like you should be able to use like Zod to check like, this JSON even? Or am I being
Wilhelm (20:20.302)
Right.
Wilhelm (20:26.584)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (20:39.296)
It's not as hard a task as what you would use a big Frontier model for.
Matt Carey (20:46.894)
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Wilhelm (20:48.302)
I feel like I actually have a reasonably poor understanding of the strength of all the different small models. Like I don't know how good Gemini 3.1 Flash is in comparison to like 4.5 Haiku versus a Quen or a local model, yeah.
Matt Carey (21:02.49)
Yeah, think, I think, yeah, like Gemma, Gemma for the open source Gemini models. So the open source Google models are like really, really decent, like Gemma for I think was really cool. And then there was a few other, obviously there were like the big ones that people tried to use for coding like Kimmy 2.5 and like the GLM models.
Is it GLM 5 point something? GLM 5.1? I don't know. But they're like, right for coding. But I think for something like this, like you'd want like a 6 billion parameter. My friends at Stack One, know, the place used to work. They made a 600 million per am model or even like 200 million per am model that just checked for prompt injection.
Wilhelm (21:31.565)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (21:47.618)
I do.
Wilhelm (21:51.341)
I will.
Wilhelm (21:57.146)
cool, yeah that sounds like exactly, that sounds like, yeah. No I agree, a smaller model makes sense for this.
Matt Carey (21:59.888)
It was, it was really sick. Like, I mean, I have no idea. Like how well it worked, but it'd be one step in like a multi-step pipeline to be like anything that comes in, we need to do all of these checks.
Wilhelm (22:12.91)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it makes sense, makes sense.
Matt Carey (22:14.788)
I mean, if you signed it, wouldn't have to do anything.
Wilhelm (22:18.462)
yeah, yeah. I, okay, wait, speaking of open source stuff and browsers as well. Have you heard of BB browser? It stands for bad boy browser. and I saw this on a hacker news comment, like maybe a couple of weeks ago.
Matt Carey (22:30.021)
Hmm.
Matt Carey (22:34.0)
No, what is this?
Matt Carey (22:38.0)
What?
Wilhelm (22:44.276)
And I thought it was a really cool idea, but I didn't actually investigate it much until yesterday when I was trying... yeah, go on.
Matt Carey (22:51.812)
on.
No dude, this is...
This is amazing, okay. This is like agent browser.
Wilhelm (23:05.112)
Say more. Do I know agent browser?
Matt Carey (23:07.652)
Yeah, so agent browsers, the is like the Bersel thing. It's like the wrapper around CDP, like a nice CLI around the CDP protocol. And that's cool because CDP allows you to click on stuff. It allows you to like run JavaScript in your browser. It allows you to like navigate to pages and all of that sort of stuff and use like the window object.
Wilhelm (23:15.195)
I see.
Wilhelm (23:24.078)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (23:33.038)
all of this cool stuff. It just allows you to remotely control the browser. That's how the Clanker works.
Wilhelm (23:39.638)
Yeah, so BBBrowser does that, but it does another thing, which is why I bring it up, which I think is the thing that I thought was really, really cool. So it does wrap CDP as does your skill and agent browser, looks like. But the other thing that BBBrowser does is it's kind of like a two-step thing. So the idea is it starts off doing CDP.
and clicking around and using it the way a human would use the browser. But then it captures all of the network logs and the request payloads, and it basically learns the API of the thing that you're using so that it can then build from that data a utility that the agent can use directly. Yeah, like...
Matt Carey (24:07.12)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (24:18.735)
grips.
Yeah, that's how my Clanker works. Yeah.
Wilhelm (24:26.082)
Really? I thought it takes screenshots and stuff, like it...
Matt Carey (24:30.064)
Yeah, but how does it do that? It writes code that then it runs on the browser. So once it's done it the first time, it just writes scripts and then it executes the script.
Wilhelm (24:37.122)
But the script still like click buttons and stuff,
Matt Carey (24:46.896)
Mm, yes. Sometimes, don't have to. The scripts are like navigate to this page and take a screenshot. That's the...
Wilhelm (24:50.476)
Like what I'm saying this thing is like it.
Wilhelm (24:56.076)
No, no, sure, sure, sure. That makes perfect sense to me. But I think the cool thing that this thing does, which I hadn't seen before, I don't know if everyone does this or not, whatever. But I think the thing that I thought was really cool is that it captures all of the local network traffic in the first pass. And then from that, using an LLM can generate essentially the way the API works, the internal like...
Matt Carey (25:04.995)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (25:24.98)
only kind of like API that actually ends up getting called with like your session cooking, whatever. And then it can execute that stuff directly. So then it's actually no longer firing up a browser. Like when the script actually runs, it's not like taking screenshots. It's just like using your auth data and the APIs directly. So it's kind of like a two-step thing.
Matt Carey (25:47.96)
Are you sure?
Wilhelm (25:56.11)
And then people have made all these community packages, right? For like browsing Twitter or GitHub or Stack Overflow, where like that internal API shape is like captured and then you can use it directly. So I used this yesterday because I was trying to find like a, I was trying to find a friend on Strava and Strava search was just like awful in the mobile app. didn't really work for like, I didn't want to click through like 50 pages.
on, I didn't want to click through like 50 pages on the like website. So I asked this thing to do it. And yeah, like first it opens Java and like search some things and then it captured the API. But then it was able to like hit the API directly, like the internal API and then give me like what I was looking for.
Matt Carey (26:39.162)
Yeah, no.
Matt Carey (26:43.612)
What it says it does, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that what it says it does is it writes, it catches all the network requests, writes a script, writes, it says it writes like...
Reverse engine is the API. Test interest.
and it writes this like adapter script.
Wilhelm (27:09.846)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But as far as I know, the adapter script doesn't fire up the browser anymore.
Matt Carey (27:17.914)
So what it says here is it's like agent whatever to BBROWSER CLI over HTTP to the daemon, which is the thing that's running that's communicating over CDP web sockets to your real browser. It does say it's using the browser.
Wilhelm (27:38.431)
interesting.
Matt Carey (27:38.724)
Like, you need a browser.
Wilhelm (27:41.602)
I mean, you for sure need a browser the first time around.
Matt Carey (27:46.65)
Okay, let's machine choose the adapter runs eval inside your browser tab, calls fetch with your cookies, or invokes the pages own webpack modules.
Wilhelm (27:48.942)
But,
Matt Carey (28:00.154)
Complex also, yeah, the page handles it itself. Yeah, it's still using a browser,
Wilhelm (28:06.35)
Interesting. Maybe...
Matt Carey (28:07.28)
It's still using Chrome. It's like writing scripts. It's the same thing as what I'm doing.
Wilhelm (28:12.994)
Maybe my agent then just extended it. Because the idea makes sense, right?
Matt Carey (28:16.464)
Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. I'm just not saying, it doesn't sound like that's what this does.
Wilhelm (28:26.488)
Well, okay, the thing I will say also about this thing, like I wouldn't put that much trust into the readme because it's like the whole CLI when you download it is actually all in Chinese. So, and then also it does all this like live updating. Like I think actually maybe only the readme is an angle, like a bunch of the commits are in Chinese. So I have like a private fork of this. Yeah.
Matt Carey (28:32.367)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (28:37.551)
giant.
Matt Carey (28:46.724)
Yeah, everything looks like it's in 20. Yeah.
Wilhelm (28:50.828)
that I had a whole codex do a pass for security stuff. I had to delete all of the auto-fetching, auto-updating code. And...
Matt Carey (29:01.613)
Okay, so you fork this. You should, you should publish your fork, man.
Wilhelm (29:07.662)
you
Matt Carey (29:08.656)
You actually should because this looks cool. This looks like they've productized what my clanker does. And I think that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so we have a bunch of trainings that we have to do at work.
Wilhelm (29:16.417)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (29:24.802)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (29:30.274)
Maybe I'm not going to carry on with that sentence.
Wilhelm (29:32.59)
I have an idea of where that was going. Okay, interesting.
Matt Carey (29:38.682)
Hahaha!
Matt Carey (29:42.788)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelm (29:44.11)
Let me also send you the comment where I saw this initially because I think for me just the CDP stuff, it has been a little bit unreliable in general. And I much prefer the idea of, there is a private API which the browser just calls. As long as you send the right data to it, it's fine. Then you don't need a browser at all. You just need something that looks like a browser, which...
Matt Carey (29:57.55)
Yeah, write a script.
Matt Carey (30:06.48)
No, but there's no way you're getting around like... If anything has like Cloudflare on it, you're screwed. Because they check whether you have like eyeballs on the page.
Wilhelm (30:16.227)
Okay.
Matt Carey (30:21.296)
Like, Twitter went wild.
Wilhelm (30:21.317)
There's a curl alternative that gets around some of this. Like obviously not the strictest Cloudflare thing that checks if you're, I don't know, I'm sure Cloudflare does all sorts of stuff. But there is like a, there is like a curl.
Wilhelm (30:38.574)
It's called like CXI or something. It's like a basically like a curl drop in that presents all the right browser headers and like the right like challenges and compute the right stuff. like basically it's just what I'm saying. It's nice not to have to use a browser if you can. Yeah.
Matt Carey (30:47.576)
Right, OK.
Matt Carey (30:51.706)
That's cool.
Matt Carey (30:55.622)
yeah, on the... I didn't have to use a browser in my Clanker, it'd be so good. But for the Garmin stuff that I did with the Clanker, I had loads of problems getting an OAuth token. I had to get an OAuth token on my laptop. And even capturing the OAuth token was really, really hard because if I did it as a script to capture it, then I actually got blocked by Cloudflare.
Wilhelm (31:02.723)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (31:09.22)
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (31:24.044)
Right. How interesting.
Matt Carey (31:24.708)
because the endpoints are all mega protected. And if I did it in the browser, then the OAuth token wasn't valid because it was connected to the wrong resource or something. There was some issues because I couldn't run, I needed to do it from the app because it needed to, the OAuth token from my browser wouldn't work on the, it was too locked down or something. Something was broken. I can't remember the exact details again. So I ended up.
Wilhelm (31:27.822)
You
Wilhelm (31:36.396)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (31:41.281)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (31:51.632)
Yeah, I mean to do some proper hacky stuff to get an OAuth token that looked like it was coming from the app so I could use the app APIs rather than from my browser which is way more locked down.
Wilhelm (32:06.274)
Yeah,
Matt Carey (32:08.034)
And honestly, all of this stuff, like they just need to make it easier. It's all the comp like, like all the companies think that if they hold onto their data, then they become valuable because they have data. And that doesn't work because in order to sell your product, you have to give, you have to show people the data. And so there are going to be like numpties like us who work out how to get the data or you manage to use it all because, because at some point you have to give it to someone, right? Like.
Wilhelm (32:31.854)
You
Matt Carey (32:37.804)
Like you have to give it, can't, otherwise you have no product. So, so why don't you just go the whole nine yards and make your platform open and then make it a place where people can share data easily. and maybe, maybe that will be a, yeah. And this is the cool thing about AI, right? Like another cool thing about AI is that just like, I would never ever have spent the amount of time needed for me to.
Wilhelm (32:52.012)
Yeah, I agree. We're heading in that direction.
Wilhelm (33:06.158)
Totally.
Matt Carey (33:07.04)
Garmin OAuth before. I just let it run while I was doing something else and it took a long time, like maybe two or three hours. then it needed a bit of help from me and I had a little idea which got around it. But I wouldn't have got to that starting point at all. I wouldn't even been on the start line without AI. And that's so cool because in all of the things about AI, we've had this thing where
Wilhelm (33:27.598)
Totally.
Matt Carey (33:36.174)
feels like data is getting more closed, like labs are paying for data, people are making more stuff private because they don't want models to train on it. When in this case, SaaS companies are having to open up their data to stay relevant. And I think that is really cool. Or we're able to exfiltrate some of that data, which is our data. It's like we're literally paying for this data. Give it to us.
Wilhelm (33:49.9)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (33:54.336)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (33:59.36)
It's literally my sleep, bro. Why are you guarding it? I think we'll also see a lot more hackable stuff in general, right? Or a lot more, like even with like an Apple watch, right? It's like, it's my screen that I'm wearing on my wrist. Why can't I put things on it, you know? And now with AI, you can, it's much easier for anyone to put things on the screen. You don't need like a degree in.
Matt Carey (34:02.252)
It is. Why are you guarding it? Anyway.
Wilhelm (34:25.954)
putting things on the screen and then pay Apple a fee to put things on the screen.
Matt Carey (34:27.674)
So, so now.
Matt Carey (34:31.676)
Sunil did this great talk, AI engineer, he talked about, Sunil, yeah, he talked about, he was like, what happens in a world where all of your users can write perfect code?
Wilhelm (34:45.388)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (34:47.21)
What happens there? In the past, people... everything was quite restricted, right? Because... we got another... It sent us again. It sent us the full thing. Anyway, in the past, people were quite restricted. They had to make UIs in order for most people to be able to access the data. Because you can't expect someone to curl an endpoint to access data. That's just not okay.
You also can't expect giving some data in JSON to someone to be like an appropriate way of delivering data. People need UIs. They need to be able to like visualize something. Like, like they need to be able to do that sort of stuff. And, and.
Wilhelm (35:24.322)
You
Wilhelm (35:31.242)
I have been telling my family for years, you wanna know how I am? Just curl my endpoint, bro. You get the JSON, you get all the things you need.
Matt Carey (35:35.522)
Exactly.
You've been prepping for this agentic future for years, but now, but now when like all of your users are actually your previous users agents, what happens? Like those agents can write perfect code. They don't necessarily need a UI. They, they, they, they just need the data. And so give agents the data, just let them write code. think, um, I forgot what his, the title of his talk was, but it's like my,
Wilhelm (35:42.766)
you
Matt Carey (36:07.556)
My thing is just let the agents write code. Just let them write code and it will be better. And I had this massive rant about declarative generative UI. Generative UI in JSON, which is making a little bit of a comeback. People are claiming that. No, MCP apps return and let you render an iframe. MCP apps can.
Wilhelm (36:10.274)
Just that. Totally.
Wilhelm (36:17.41)
Declarative, yeah, go on.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (36:25.612)
This is how MCP apps work, right?
Wilhelm (36:32.91)
Mmm, okay, so it's not at all how they work.
Matt Carey (36:36.078)
Yeah, no, so MCV apps you can like write HTML and whatever. But there are some platforms or not platforms, Yeah, there are some platforms which are promoting a JSON like structure or a JSON structure, which then you can like compile basically into your own UI. So the model returns JSON with a button here, a button there, and they've made this whole like DSL.
Wilhelm (36:39.726)
Cool, cool,
Wilhelm (36:43.852)
Yeah, like Slack apps. It is how Slack apps work.
Wilhelm (36:51.939)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (36:57.781)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (37:05.712)
And then out of that, you compile your own UI. And I just think that's so backwardly facing, because that's what we tried to We tried to do this in 2020. I remember the folks at Langchain trying to do this in 2020. And the models just weren't being that great. But returning JSON, and then from that JSON, you had some pre-written components that you would try and match the JSON to look at the components. And you would have like, oh, this is
going to be a card with this title and this description. And then from that, render the component. And I think it's so backwards because the models can write better React than I can.
Wilhelm (37:40.141)
Yeah, yeah,
Wilhelm (37:46.914)
So I'm actually totally with you because I I spent 10 years writing JSON based UIs, right? For SimplePool and they've invested a lot of effort into making their JSON UI good. And there are some benefits, right? it, and they've, partially because Slack has invested so much in the sense that as a developer, you just get to ship some JSON around and it looks beautiful. It looks beautiful. First of all, you don't have to design it yourself at all. Like some designers designed it. And then also it works across.
web, like desktop, iOS and Android, and it just kind of works. The problem is that it actually doesn't fully work all the time and you have these weird, like behavioral differences. So you're, and you're not in control at all of some of these differences. Like for us, like various buttons have just stopped working or a flow that made perfect sense doesn't work, make sense anymore because of like some change that an iOS Slack designer made, which maybe makes sense for some others, but like not for us. And then the probably biggest problem.
was always that you just can't quite design it the way you want all the way. Like you are really limited still in like specific things. Like you want to have a label just on this side, just for this one flow. Nope, you can't do that. You wanna have like a button on the side of this thing, not like underneath it. Nope, can't do that. And that's even with Slack investing like a ton into this, which obviously this is all like pre-AI, pre-agent stuff, but I'm inclined to agree with you.
Matt Carey (39:15.002)
Like why don't they let you render your own UI there? Well, I think there's like kind of two main reasons. One of them was important previously and the other one is like more important now. And I guess the first one that was important previously is they lose their like brand image in their own product. So Slack as a product wants a cohesive brand design. And so they're not going to let you render your, like as a third party, like go to hell. Like you're not going to render your own design. You're going to use our design. That makes sense.
Wilhelm (39:32.418)
Yep. Yep.
Matt Carey (39:44.688)
Secondly, and that's not really a problem then because like iframes are relatively relatively secure, but like for other things people don't let you write code because they're gonna have to run that code on their server and that's kind of dodgy like really dodgy like that used to be that is a CVE like if you allow remote code execution that's bad We've been told that's bad. And so there's this whole like branch of the internet or branch of computing that
Wilhelm (40:08.814)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (40:14.938)
People haven't really discovered yet because we stopped giving each other code to run back when punch cards existed. As soon as everything moved to the cloud and stuff and we started sending each other payloads over the internet, we stopped sending each other code. How weird would it be if I sent you some code and you just ran it programmatically? That would be pretty weird. You'd never do that.
Wilhelm (40:23.31)
Right.
Wilhelm (40:41.548)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (40:44.558)
We used to do that with like punch cards. would like punch on my cards and then I would send, I would walk up to you and we'll send them to you back in the fifties, whenever it was. And you would run them like as the computer operator, you would run my cards. Like you're running my own trusted code, you know?
Wilhelm (40:58.744)
Damn, yeah. I think this is finally clicking for me what you're pitching here. That's really cool.
Matt Carey (41:06.316)
So there's this whole branch of computing and sharing of code that we never really got. And the closest to it we got was GitHub. That was the closest we got, but we didn't quite get there. Yeah, iframe's pretty good as well.
Wilhelm (41:14.412)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maybe iframes? There used to be much more of a culture of putting other people's iframes on your page maybe?
Matt Carey (41:28.272)
Yeah, and remember Flash? I wasn't really developing code there, but there was a lot of people who would render games from other places and stuff. There were things where people did that.
Wilhelm (41:39.47)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (41:43.598)
Damn, you're right. It's like a whole branch that we have just not done because how to generate code, sandbox. yeah. Sorry, go on.
Matt Carey (41:49.584)
Yeah. And, and I think we got so invested in, yeah, we got so, we got so invested in Jason of like sending Jason payloads rather than sending like richer payloads. Like Jason, if I send you something like that, it can't have a function on it. It can't have any like logic in it, but yeah, but like, maybe I want to send you something that has some logic and you can pick one thing or another. Oh no, sorry. Now you have to.
Wilhelm (42:09.038)
It can't have any binary data in it.
Matt Carey (42:19.482)
do the logic on your side and then request the new data from me. Or you have to call an endpoint that does my logic on my side. Like there's this whole deeper interaction layer that we haven't discovered. like the...
Wilhelm (42:23.03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (42:32.514)
So code mode is like the first example of this, like opening up this whole branch, right? Where the client generates the code and then the server just runs it.
Matt Carey (42:41.636)
Yeah, I think code mode is exciting for this reason. But I think you'll see this in so many other places in the future. We just haven't had the inclination to do it yet. But there wasn't the time when all of your users could write perfect code. And now your users can write maybe not perfect code, but they can write code.
Wilhelm (43:09.73)
Yeah, and certainly the way things are going, it will become perfect code.
Matt Carey (43:15.182)
Yeah. So I think this is super.
Wilhelm (43:16.918)
Okay, wait. I have, you've thought about this a lot more than me. So besides code mode, what, where else is this going to show up? So I guess like there's a thing where like, you know, maybe if you ship some product of sorts, right? Like say you ship a mobile calorie tracking app, whatever. And in there, it has like a tab where you can, it's like an Claude code codex tab and you can tell it what
Matt Carey (43:35.13)
Hmm.
Wilhelm (43:44.682)
additional features you want to have in the app and then they show up. I guess that's kind of like one way, but that's still that's still yourself though. Like yeah, what what yeah, what else are you thinking about?
Matt Carey (43:55.726)
Yeah, so there's like the whole idea of personalized UI. That's pretty cool. And personalized features. Features that, whole features that exist in some object storage somewhere, keyed by user. That's pretty sick. I think we'll see much more of that. Which we basically have that in our Clanker, right? The start of it. Like we have scripts that exist only for me and you.
Wilhelm (44:14.882)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (44:25.688)
and they're only accessible in certain channels, right? Like, they're not accessible to everyone. They're just personalised for this particular feature in this particular channel and they're built on demand and then stored for future. And I think we'll have like a lot of that type of stuff. think the world, like the internet's about to get a really weird place where it's going to become a lot more personalised. Yeah, like a lot more personalised for better or for worse.
Wilhelm (44:26.294)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (44:36.13)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (44:50.112)
even more weird?
Matt Carey (44:55.792)
Even more, okay, so that's one thing.
Wilhelm (44:56.172)
Yep.
Wilhelm (44:59.916)
No, I love this direction. Like imagine an internet that's primarily everyone has their own little code thing, as opposed to everyone scrolling on TikTok. That sounds like a much better internet.
Matt Carey (45:12.282)
Yeah, or just like tools will become more flexible. Like I think there's the interaction pattern with tools is gonna change as well. So for instance, like we're just talking about Garmin here, right?
Like the fact that Garmin ships an app, probably the next generation of hardware startups are not going to ship apps. I would guess. Like if I was, if I was starting a startup right now, I wouldn't ship an app. I would ship a server and that server connect over MCP. That server would connect.
Wilhelm (45:38.6)
I see, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (45:44.086)
Yep. Yeah, yeah, Totally. Or like a good spec or a good MD file of your APIs or whatever.
Matt Carey (45:54.596)
Yeah, I would ship a nice API. I'd ship a really accessible server is what I would ship. And then like people can do what they want with it. But like, and this sounds so dumb to most people because most people aren't mega internet technical, but their agents will be. So you've got to like stop thinking that we're selling to like people and you're actually just selling to people's agents. imagine I...
Wilhelm (46:13.686)
Yeah, yeah,
Wilhelm (46:19.692)
You just make something agents want.
Matt Carey (46:23.364)
Dude, hold that thought.
Wilhelm (46:26.22)
No, no, you were wearing that t-shirt last time. That's why I mentioned it. I really want that t-shirt. I think it's really smart. Plaster it on your walls. Make something Asians want.
Matt Carey (46:29.872)
Oh, was I wearing it last time? Oh, okay.
Yeah. But so your interaction pattern with Garmin would change, right? Because if in the future, okay, here's a, Rohan won't mind me talking about this. I've got a friend who I actually invested and he makes a back pain for wearables. Sorry, he makes wearable for back pain. Jesus, why I need to get more sleep.
Wilhelm (47:01.898)
Hahaha
Matt Carey (47:01.956)
He makes a wearable, a back pain for wearables. He makes a wearable for back pain. And it's super cool. It's like a bunch of electrodes, which you tape to your back, lasts a few days and then you replace them or you replace the tape and like it's super comfortable. And he basically tracks your, it's called Curve, C-U-R-V. And it basically, it essentially tracks your back and the state of your back throughout the day. And like a lot of people have back pain and it's a sick wearable. Cool.
Wilhelm (47:16.462)
What's it called?
Wilhelm (47:27.603)
cool.
Matt Carey (47:32.602)
He spent a lot of time building an app because obviously you need an app to connect via Bluetooth to the electrodes on your back and then do your tracking data, the same with Garmin, right? And then we were just chatting about a world, like a future world, and we were like, why would you need an app? Like if in the future, like you access all of this stuff through someone else's app.
Wilhelm (47:42.552)
This looks sick, I might just buy this.
Matt Carey (47:59.406)
Somewhat like a, like a model app or like an agent app, like the agent OS idea where like chat, GPD has an app that, that is your main or probably the OS of your, of your mobile is the app, right? Like there are no like actual apps. It's just the OS of your mobile. And then your, your phone connects via Bluetooth directly to your, to your electrodes on your back. And then there is some, there is some sort of.
Wilhelm (48:00.685)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (48:28.494)
way of registering apps on your phone, but they're like backend apps. You're like, I need this Bluetooth data. And all it does is it sends it straight to your server. You can process it. the, like, I guess the way that the user interacts with your device is through their mobile OS. So their mobile OS, next to your server as the provider of the mobile device.
Wilhelm (48:50.422)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Matt Carey (48:57.072)
And then your mobile OS generates the UIs it needs on demand. for instance, he has this really cool UI where it sees your back throughout the day. And that could just be generated. That's just a bunch of points on a canvas, right? It's not hard to generate. And it's just generated on demand. And then you need stats. OK, stats are fetched. UI table generated. Done. I don't think we're going to have these individual apps. think Apple is going to have to change.
Apple invented these like individual app things on a phone and that's going to change, man. That's not going be around.
Wilhelm (49:29.55)
Hmm.
Yeah, I was thinking about this. It's the one year anniversary of the Johnny Ive Apple video announcement, the IO joining Apple thing. I think that was in early May. So I feel like surely they will have to announce something or do something on the one year anniversary. Have you heard rumors about what this device supposedly is? Because there's a lot of rumors.
Matt Carey (49:58.51)
I heard rumors that it's not going to have a screen and I feel like that's a massive
Wilhelm (50:03.704)
What
Matt Carey (50:05.04)
Dude, people are addicted to screens.
Wilhelm (50:09.198)
What, okay, so if it's not, if it doesn't have a screen, what is it? Like I've heard, okay, yeah, yeah, fair, fair. I mean, they have to start somewhere, I guess. But do you think it'll be earbuds or as someone told me, it will be a pen?
Matt Carey (50:14.04)
I want a phone with no app.
Matt Carey (50:21.934)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (50:27.275)
school.
I don't write anything though. I have a pen next to me, but I don't use it.
Wilhelm (50:30.324)
smart pen.
Put that, quote that, that's a good... Wait, I was gonna say something else. yeah, I think that this is a great vision for hardware in general, also because usually the apps suck. Like the hardware apps really, like the apps that come with hardware, they're so bad. Like... Yeah.
Matt Carey (50:50.032)
That's so good!
I think we should get into hardware because I think actually it's getting a lot easier to get into hardware because you won't have to make any software. You would just make a server that everything communicates to. And so there are these activity trackers that are rings. They're Chinese. They're like 20 quid or something. might buy you one. And they come with open source firmware. So people have made like a bunch of like Python clients for them. And they're like pretty easy to connect to over BLE, like Bluetooth Low Energy.
Wilhelm (51:00.8)
Yeah, you know...
Wilhelm (51:15.394)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (51:22.304)
Yeah, yeah, this sounds, this sounds sick. There's a yeah, you know, Eric Michikowski, the Pebble founder, he's rebooting Pebble at the moment, like the watch that kind of started all the smartwatch thing like this. So
Matt Carey (51:26.245)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (51:35.894)
Google by Google,
Wilhelm (51:39.104)
Kind of like Pebble's assets were acquired by Fitbit, I think. So it wasn't like a great acquisition. then Fitbit by, and then some people inside Google convinced Google to open source Pebble OS. So, which was like most of the software that they had built. And now because of that, he's kind of relaunching Pebble because he doesn't have to rebuild all the software. And because building software is much, much more straightforward. And he says, actually, hardware is.
Matt Carey (51:43.248)
And then Fitbit got bought by Google.
Matt Carey (52:01.593)
shit!
Wilhelm (52:07.438)
going to be much easier because software is much easier.
Matt Carey (52:10.266)
Yeah, I think this is super cool. Dude, I've been wanting to, so the Clanker, we've like ironed out a lot of problems with it and it's basically just an agent loop that you can trigger on cron jobs with like events and stuff and it can write scripts that access a browser and also the scripts can do loads of other stuff, but it can write scripts and it saves scripts. And it also have skills to tell you how to use the scripts, like markdown files to tell you how to use the scripts. And it has like a bunch of MCP connections that are hard coded in a code tool.
Like, that's it, that's all my clanker is. And I was like, this, you need to know quite a lot to put this together, still, even in this day and age. We should sell clanker boxes.
Wilhelm (52:49.634)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
anchor boxes.
Matt Carey (52:56.046)
Like genuinely, like little raspberry pies with software or just sell the software or even not sell it, like bloody give it away. Like I was gonna make an image. Yeah. Selling clanker boxes. Yeah, clanker rings would be fucking cool.
Wilhelm (53:05.612)
this is what you mean by getting into hardware. Selling clanker boxes. Clanker rings.
Wilhelm (53:17.474)
There's so much to talk about with this. Did you see the M5 stack?
Matt Carey (53:19.312)
Dude, I don't wanna see you. Sorry, what'd you say?
Wilhelm (53:24.236)
No, I just said, did you see the M5 stack? Some anthropic people were tweeting about this. It's like a very cheap, it's a very cheap, wait, let me just send you the Amazon link. I'll send you.
Matt Carey (53:31.115)
M5
Matt Carey (53:41.552)
I love a conversation that starts, let me send you the Amazon link.
Wilhelm (53:46.318)
So it's like a very cheap hardware device with a screen that costs $30 and Claude can control it.
Matt Carey (54:00.206)
Wait, wait, can you send me the link?
Wilhelm (54:03.21)
Yeah, wait, I sent it in the chat here in the Riverside chat.
Wilhelm (54:10.508)
I can make a copy to WhatsApp.
Matt Carey (54:13.016)
No, no, no, can maybe find it. there we go.
Matt Carey (54:18.096)
I have a look.
Wilhelm (54:18.434)
and while you're looking this up, the thing I was looking at earlier, which is the curl that gets around Cloudfair is called curl cffi, which I think.
Matt Carey (54:26.0)
Yeah, oh, okay. So this is an ESP32 Pico. Okay, cool. Yeah, these are cool. So we used to play with, I think I have one of these. I have one of these chips hanging around.
Wilhelm (54:40.213)
yeah, I didn't notice the I used to have one of these chips as well actually, but I never built anything with it.
Matt Carey (54:44.09)
My, my, well, one of my brother's flatmates at university used to play a lot with, he still does, with these chips. Yeah, it's an, yeah, it's literally an ESP.
Wilhelm (54:54.498)
Because they're super cheap, right? And they have Wi-Fi and, you know.
Matt Carey (54:57.968)
They're like a Fiverr or something. You normally have to have a Wi-Fi, some of them have Wi-Fi, some of them you need a Wi-Fi module. But this one seems like it's got loads of stuff to it. This one's got, obviously it's got that little screen on the top of it, it's got a microphone, it's got all of the extras. It's pretty cool, man.
Wilhelm (55:13.784)
So maybe we could make our own Johnny Ive I.O. with one of these boys for $30 and just, we call it a thin hardware, fat model. That's the new paradigm.
Matt Carey (55:20.026)
we could make our own Flanker Bot.
Matt Carey (55:26.938)
Dude, honestly, this is sick. Stopwares getting thinner. Everything collapses into the model. You should write a blog post that goes viral,
Wilhelm (55:37.358)
Okay, we haven't even talked about all of your stuff. No, sorry, go on, go on.
Matt Carey (55:40.752)
What would you do with
What would you even do with this? The screen is too small to do anything.
Wilhelm (55:49.806)
just gotta let your creativity run loose.
Matt Carey (55:50.896)
Maybe the screen is just like the dog, like my little doggy, like just dancing. Maybe that's the only thing that we've shown.
Wilhelm (55:57.482)
Exactly. Just take it to a festival. I think one of the anthropic people was saying that they have it whenever Claude has a permission prompt, it shows up on the screen.
Matt Carey (56:03.716)
Ha ha ha!
Matt Carey (56:10.49)
Yeah, that's amazing. Wait, they don't, yeah, they can't do dangerously skipped permissions. I haven't been asked for permissions in like a good, I wanna say like seven months, eight months.
Wilhelm (56:23.734)
Okay. That's interesting because I started getting asked for permissions recently for, with a really annoying cloud code bug, which is that they made a security thing like in mid March, which where it can't edit its own skill files or its own settings. And that needs to be manually approved. And there's no way around it as far as I know.
Matt Carey (56:33.476)
Hmm.
Matt Carey (56:42.458)
That's annoying. that's not that's so it can't like give itself more permissions, isn't it? I had that dude. So, know, I have this, you know, I this like get rapper and we can get on to talking about the fun stuff, but like have this, yeah, it's Aggie, right? The whole point is Aggie is you can put like agent is true basically in your ZSH file or in your, in your, in your shell and your shell config and
Wilhelm (56:47.938)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes sense, but I just don't want it.
Wilhelm (56:56.184)
Zaggy.
Wilhelm (57:04.494)
Mm.
Matt Carey (57:10.032)
If you do that, it will add some more permission sets to your Git so that if you try and balk your repo and destroy all the history or lose any changes that you have locally, it will... It just basically won't let you make destructive changes. And I was like, this is a great idea. And it worked pretty well for code code. I started using it with Pi. Immediately, Pi was like, dude, why have you got this turned on? Ah, ZSH RC file.
Remove, source, let's go. And it's because like it can edit, it can edit whatever and there are no permissions there. And so for the last few weeks, I haven't been, I've been using Pi and so this doesn't work with Pi. And I need to think of another method. I think this is as YOLO mode as I've ever gone.
Wilhelm (57:43.778)
Damn.
Wilhelm (57:48.791)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (58:01.622)
Yeah, yeah, I really need to figure out a good way to integrate Pi into my workflow. I started using it a little bit, but then it's just a whole new thing to learn.
Matt Carey (58:09.2)
pie's great, man. Yeah, did you see all of the beef? Do you see more beef?
Wilhelm (58:17.186)
Wait, I thought it was fake beef. It's hard to keep track these days. Wait, who was the beef?
Matt Carey (58:19.312)
It was kind of fake. Mario got me so hard. Because you know we hung out with him a bunch at AI engineering. It was really fun. And then he absolutely pranked me. Because we posted, like my session API that I posted for, that I built for the Cloudflare Agents SDK had a tree-like structure, which is pretty similar to, it's based on Pi, right? There's a bunch of stuff that
Wilhelm (58:29.967)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (58:41.426)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (58:47.469)
Yep, yep, yep.
Matt Carey (58:48.176)
based on different people's work. I used context blocks from Leto, which are super, super cool. And I think even all the formatting of them was based on the designs from Noose, Hermes' agent. And there was a bunch of other stuff that was based from other people as well. Those were the big ones, the big ones that I lifted. And he started absolutely spouting off online, being like, looks familiar, mildly offended. And I was just like, no. And I got a little bit worried, so I actually wrote like.
Wilhelm (59:00.738)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (59:17.946)
acknowledgements in the bottom of my session API, where I got all of the ideas from, which I probably should have done anyway, but it just like made me laugh. and then he, then he, he called it off as a joke afterwards. I just find it. Yeah. I love this influx of Yeah. I love this influx of European sensibilities into what is otherwise quite an American dominated industry. Like they, they, him and Armin was such good crack at AI engineer. They were so fun.
Wilhelm (59:19.758)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (59:33.196)
He has a good sense of humor.
Wilhelm (59:45.538)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (59:47.248)
They're like, yeah. I know they just weren't trying to sell anything and that's quite fun. I like that. I like that. mean.
Wilhelm (59:49.942)
I can really see that, yeah.
Wilhelm (59:56.3)
Yeah, yeah, totally. Wait, can you walk me through all this crazy stuff that you shipped in the past week? Like, what is this sessions thing you just mentioned?
Matt Carey (01:00:02.35)
Yeah.
Okay, so we shipped Think, or at least like an initial version of Think, which is our own harness built on Cloudflare for Cloudflare primitives. So it's like our own take on how we should build a harness on Cloudflare. Basically, like there's a few things that came up to this, like Ramp built like a really cool agent on Cloudflare, and they came up with a bunch of issues.
And a few other people have built really cool agents on Cloudflare. durable objects are a great place to build agents. And we just didn't have a reference architecture. So we started building, and all of these customers were building stuff. And we had the agents SDK, which is mostly there. It's all the building blocks, but it's not assembled. It's like Lego.
And you have to look at them, you have to work out how the pieces were, you have to work out what color they are, and then you put them all together and you get your racing car. But we were like, why don't we just build the racing car? And then people can adapt it, they can change it to how they want it to be, but like, it is a very fast car from the start, rather than just being bits of Lego. And so that was the plan, and it's been going pretty well. Building a harness.
Wilhelm (01:00:59.617)
Right.
Wilhelm (01:01:06.316)
Yep, yep, yep.
Matt Carey (01:01:28.432)
to run locally in the CLI is really, really easy. Building it to run, building anything in a distributed system is really, really hard. And so it hasn't been the easiest thing in the world, but we're really, we're getting there. And all of the session management stuff is basically memory for this new agent harness.
Wilhelm (01:01:36.961)
Yeah, yeah,
Wilhelm (01:01:46.401)
Interesting.
Wilhelm (01:01:52.108)
OK, fascinating. So wait, I? So is this something, like say I wanted to deploy something on Cloudflare. Would I point my agent at this? Or it's more like if I wanted to build an agent that runs on Cloudflare.
Matt Carey (01:02:09.572)
Yeah, like.
If you want to build an agent, point your agent at think and be like, how do I use think to build an agent? it's part, it's like the battery is included thing for the agent's SDK. It's like the next big relief. Yeah. So you can imagine, you can imagine like the agent's SDK looking a bit like Hono. It's a router, it's got these pieces.
Wilhelm (01:02:26.062)
Oh, I see, I see,
Wilhelm (01:02:36.002)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:02:38.544)
It's got some validation library. It's got all of this stuff and you can build a really like fast high performing back end. Think is more like a Django rails type of affair. Like we're taking a lot of inspiration from rails actually because it's something that's like very batteries included. You've got your admin dash. You've got all of your bits. Everything's everything connects. There's a little bit more magic but
Wilhelm (01:02:51.31)
I I see, I see.
Wilhelm (01:02:56.663)
Nice.
Matt Carey (01:03:08.802)
it works and it should work out.
Wilhelm (01:03:10.286)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, OK, nice. So think that's the first week to kick off agent week. Or.
Matt Carey (01:03:16.888)
No, so the first thing to kill off agent we released was facets, which are, they're a Kenton number. They're durable objects, but you can spawn them.
Wilhelm (01:03:21.622)
Yeah
Wilhelm (01:03:32.366)
Can you not spawn durable objects?
Matt Carey (01:03:32.44)
So there's a durable object, have to deploy it, and then you can get new copies of it. they're globally addressable. Basically, the same code is running on all durable objects.
Wilhelm (01:03:38.323)
I see.
Wilhelm (01:03:41.815)
I
Wilhelm (01:03:50.028)
Yep, yep, yep.
Matt Carey (01:03:50.724)
But this is like what workers are to dynamic workers. This is what durable objects are to facets.
Wilhelm (01:03:58.35)
Got it. Yeah, okay. It makes sense in the abstract.
Matt Carey (01:04:01.296)
But what does this mean in like reality? It means you can do sub agents because you can have an agent running in a durable object that spawns some arbitrary running agent with arbitrary code in it as a sub agent. That code that it spawns has access to a SQLite, has its access to its own SQLite database, which is what makes durable objects cool. Has access to like out the box networking.
Wilhelm (01:04:13.208)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (01:04:18.156)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (01:04:30.724)
has access to it. Yeah, the facets are wild. And I think, like, it's taken what? Like, five, when was durable objects released? Like, five years ago? For people to, kind of understand them, it might take another three for people to understand facets. Facets are wild, and they enable all of these, like, AI apps on Cloudflare. Like, without facets, stuff, you start hitting the walls of what you can do.
Wilhelm (01:04:30.732)
You'll look crazy.
Wilhelm (01:04:46.585)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:04:57.456)
Because you generate code and then you have to run that code with dynamic workers if you run that code you only get Like it's a request response cycle. You don't get any persistence You have to your own persistence So facets enable all that stuff. So facets are really cool. Okay, so what are the big ones? Another one that I didn't so I didn't work on facets, but something that I've been a bit close to Another one that I didn't work on at all and haven't been close to but I think it's super cool is you can send emails now from cloud
Wilhelm (01:05:07.244)
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
Wilhelm (01:05:25.516)
my God, I saw that. Which obviously you could send them to yourself before or to like a white listed group of people, but now you can send them to everyone like a proper transactional email service like a Resend or Postmark or AWS SES. Yeah, that's cool. I looked at, yeah, actually I asked my client to do a little price comparison and feature comparison between different services. yeah, Cloudflare is looking pretty attractive.
Matt Carey (01:05:37.498)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:05:41.198)
All of those. Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:05:54.852)
Yeah, I think it's cool. like all Cloudflare stuff, it will start able to cope with big scale and it will just get faster and faster and faster over time.
Wilhelm (01:06:08.107)
Yeah, faster, cheaper.
Matt Carey (01:06:08.592)
start with the scale and it will get the speed and it'll get cheaper over time. But you will have the scale out of the box which I think is the really cool thing.
Wilhelm (01:06:19.19)
Yeah, and obviously makes a lot of sense if you're already on the Cloudflare stack, right? Like if you just want to send an email from inside your work or now you don't have to wire up an API. Let's talk about the ones, yeah, the ones you did.
Matt Carey (01:06:22.928)
Yeah.
And how many, how many people talk about, think the real fun one for me. Yeah. Okay. So the fun, so I did a bit of work on think the memory stuff. And then the other things that I did was we released code mode for MCP portals and a whole blog post about how we're using MCP internally. how enterprise MCP can be secured on cloudflare, how it can be like regulated and monitored and observed and all of that sort of stuff. And how we can, you can make it really efficient with code mode.
So that was a cool blog post. And then the best one, I think, well, the one that I'm most excited about of the whole week, not definitely not the best. There was so much cool stuff. There's like a whole feature flag service that got released today. we've got Cloudflow. Yeah, Cloudflow has got to the point where we're releasing whole startups in one blog post. It's kind of, it's kind of wild. It's actually insane.
Wilhelm (01:07:10.786)
damn.
Matt Carey (01:07:21.296)
Yeah, a whole feature flag and service got released today. There's loads of other cool stuff. Like we released a mesh network as well so that you don't have to like via tunnels. So you can like mesh to different stuff rather than doing like wide-angle communication with tunnels. You can have like a full mesh where your tunnel can communicate to other tunnels. as well, but I'm just burying the lead a little bit. It's artifacts, man. It's GIT or agents.
Wilhelm (01:07:33.197)
Mmm.
Wilhelm (01:07:39.808)
Yeah, yeah.
Go on.
Wilhelm (01:07:46.904)
artifacts. my god. Yeah, wait. I was so when I saw that I was like, wait, we were just talking about this the other day. This is crazy. And you were like, you were like this, because it's also a zig powered as well. I'm like, how's he managed to get a zig thing into production and Cloudflare? What? Yeah, wait, tell me about this. so what it's like, okay, wait, you have Cloudflare does GitHub now.
Matt Carey (01:07:56.91)
Yeah, I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you, sorry.
Matt Carey (01:08:11.044)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (01:08:16.608)
I'm so confused.
Matt Carey (01:08:17.136)
Yeah, so the problem we're trying to solve is agents need version control and the access pattern of this version control system is different to any version control we've had before. like GitHub for instance, it's a developer-focused platform where developers write code, developers commit code, developers view code, developers do that. It's constrained by the number of developers.
This new paradigm that we're falling into is agents are writing code and as developers, we're reviewing the output of that code. might be, some people are still like, people are still reviewing the code sometimes if it's like a production system. But in this world we were talking about earlier, which is like local first, basically, like everyone making their own little things without even knowing that they're making it because the agent's doing it in the background.
Wilhelm (01:09:09.005)
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (01:09:15.246)
In that world, think people won't review the code. I just don't think they'll be code review. So what do you need? You need a platform where you can store and version little artifacts, and you can do it at real massive scale, like scale that we've never ever seen before. I think GitHub said that the whole of last year, they did a billion commits, and the on track...
Wilhelm (01:09:18.326)
Yeah, yeah,
Wilhelm (01:09:40.098)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (01:09:42.01)
current trajectory if we flatline from now to do 14 billion this year.
Wilhelm (01:09:47.062)
Yeah, is, I mean, it tracks with my own usage for sure. But yeah, it's still an absolutely wild and explains their downtime and stuff.
Matt Carey (01:09:56.942)
Yeah, problems. like, they're doing the best they can. But we just thought, how can we reimagine code storage? And reimagining code storage like that, looks like, yeah, it looks a little bit different. we're building our own. We didn't ship GitHub, we shipped a Git API.
Wilhelm (01:10:04.087)
Yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (01:10:11.224)
Bro just chipped GitHub on a random Thursday.
Matt Carey (01:10:20.868)
Yeah,
Wilhelm (01:10:21.506)
Wait, but it's a Git server. It stores the code. Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:10:24.912)
Yeah, it's a server. you have access to the control plane, so you can create new repos. You can basically provision repos and stuff. It's GitHub for agents. And there will be a UI in the future. We will have something. will. Yeah, probably won't be as collaborative as GitHub is.
Wilhelm (01:10:33.006)
So it's GitHub for agents.
Wilhelm (01:10:42.178)
Why don't we all make our own UI?
Matt Carey (01:10:52.526)
I think it's going to be more around like metrics and more around like platform level. So this is how many repos you have. You might have millions or billions of repos because you might have a repo for every chat. You might have a repo for every, for every agent. You might have a repo for like every, virtual employee might have a repo, you know, like all of this stuff, like it maps quite well to repos.
Wilhelm (01:11:17.1)
Yeah, yeah,
Matt Carey (01:11:21.808)
Or at least it maps quite well to folders of important markdown files.
Wilhelm (01:11:21.847)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (01:11:27.384)
This reminds me of something else I was gonna mention. I mean, it makes so much sense and it's kind of wild. mean, it's just, yeah, all the things you just mentioned, it's kind of insane how, it feels like, I mean, this whole past 10 minutes has been a massive Cloudflare ad, but it feels like well-deserved and also just, feels like the world has no idea how far ahead Cloudflare is, which obviously is why I put so much money in Cloudflare stock. Anyway.
Random thing I was going to mention is, I feel like I've actually, I feel like Cloud Code got a real Git work tree upgrade like a few weeks ago. And I actually really enjoy using it now. Like I never enjoyed managing work trees myself, like manually, but having the agents manage them.
actually works really well. assuming that your repo is set up in such a way, like I think it gets messy when you want to have like a loop where you need to spin up a server and or even accept inbound connections, which SimplePool needs to do. But if you really have a good local setup, then work trees that are managed by agents is quite nice, which is just a random thing I wanted to mention.
Okay, I have to run in like two minutes. I need to run through a couple of quick things with you. First of all, a...
friend and listener of the pod, Patrick, total legend, has so much taste and is like a machine of an engineer as well, rare combo. He asked me about stateless MCP, which we talked about last time briefly, and he asked, isn't stateless MCP basically just CLI? Like why use stateless MCP instead of CLI? And he wanted me to ask you that.
Matt Carey (01:13:10.692)
Yeah, because a CLI is not a protocol. So every person who ships a new CLI is going to ship it differently. MCB standardizes the auth for services that want agents to use them. It standardizes the auth. It standardizes the method of interaction via tools. And all of this stuff sounds silly, but...
Wilhelm (01:13:16.558)
Mm.
Matt Carey (01:13:40.772)
Like try and build an agent that interacts with all of this stuff without MCP and they'll get real tough. So the statelessness is just about how the transport works under the hood. Most people won't even notice the difference. Ideally you should never.
Wilhelm (01:13:55.214)
types as well, right? Like you get kind of types and schemas with MCP that might be harder with CLI.
Matt Carey (01:14:02.382)
Yeah, it's MCP. far as I'm, yeah, as far as I am going to think about in the future is MCP is like an opinionated version of open API spec plus a method of accessing that spec.
Wilhelm (01:14:17.142)
Right. Interesting. Yep.
Matt Carey (01:14:18.296)
Like, that's all it is. It's a way of accessing capabilities from an external service and then authenticating with that external service. Like, it's just a spec for that. And that was necessary. And the fact it's stateless or stateful has actually nothing to do with it. It's an implementation detail of the spec.
Wilhelm (01:14:41.506)
Makes sense.
Damn, we really don't have enough time. I saw a thing somewhere. Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:14:48.398)
Actually, weirdly, CLIs are way more stateful because CLIs normally store JSON files on your machine.
Wilhelm (01:14:58.69)
You heard it here first. Completely different thing. I saw a thing somewhere that a lot of people make like long form content, right? Like streaming podcasts. This is long form content. We make a podcast. But then when they cut it up into short form clips, it gets like hundreds of times more views. And like, those are the things that, so I think we need to be making rage bait short form clips and post them.
Matt Carey (01:15:18.127)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (01:15:29.218)
wherever. Of course, that's a bit sad. So we should, I think, end them with stop watching short form clips and listen to the whole podcast. What do think?
Matt Carey (01:15:41.07)
Yes.
Wilhelm (01:15:42.83)
Okay, quick thoughts from you on Mythos and Opus 4.7.
Wilhelm (01:15:53.122)
because we haven't really talked about either much.
Matt Carey (01:15:53.456)
think it's cool that there's more pre-training going on. And there are new base models. So as far as I understand, with 4.7, they changed the tokenizer. And that is a thing that, least traditionally, can only be done with a new base model.
Wilhelm (01:16:05.122)
Hmm.
Matt Carey (01:16:23.044)
because it's kind of intrinsic to the model. So if Mythos, sorry, if 4.7 is a completely new base model, first of all, it's weird naming, but it would make me think that it's probably the smaller version of Mythos.
Wilhelm (01:16:44.91)
Interesting.
Matt Carey (01:16:46.256)
Like it's like the one that didn't cook fully. But I don't know, it's all like conjecture because we don't know.
Wilhelm (01:16:55.712)
It's true, yeah, it's hard to tell when stuff. mean, Mythos, sorry, Opus 117 has been getting very mixed reviews at the moment from everyone using it, but maybe it's like really, really jagged, or maybe it requires like more steering. Maybe it can do really cool stuff, but like we haven't figured out how yet.
Matt Carey (01:17:10.254)
Yeah, definitely, definitely. Like Anthropic are known for having massive prompts. and I guess, I guess they've just optimized more on that, but like the more detailed you can be with your specs, the more detailed the model can be, the more it can like just carry on going. yeah, like if they can get longer trajectories because they have longer specs, then I think that's, that's positive all around. I think the benchmarks at this point are kind of broken. Like we've always.
Wilhelm (01:17:38.199)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:17:38.928)
in this, like at the moment it's like really clapped. Like when you see, you know, what was it like the last, like humanities last exam and like ArcGi two or three or whatever we're on now, like I'd say they're some of the best benchmarks and they're completely annihilated. Not completely, but like more than, more than they should be, you know, for where we are right now.
Wilhelm (01:17:43.18)
Hahaha.
Wilhelm (01:18:00.898)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (01:18:06.572)
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot more to talk about, but I think we've got to wrap it. Big week, man. Big couple of weeks.
Matt Carey (01:18:14.5)
Yeah, boss, it was fun. Absolutely huge week. Yeah, I really would like, I've never really done plugs on this, but if you are still listening, just go and have a look at the CloudFlare blog. Like it's just kind of insane the amount of stuff that people have shipped this week. Yeah, there is not that many people in CloudFlare for how much was shipped this week. If you look at the names of the authors and see how many people are on multiple projects, it's kind of wild.
Wilhelm (01:18:19.81)
Let's.
Wilhelm (01:18:38.146)
Yeah, nice work Cloudflare team.
Wilhelm (01:18:44.918)
And after my next meeting, I'll figure out if I can get Opus 4.7 to cut all this into the most rage baity clips that we can pepper onto TikTok. Might as well.
Matt Carey (01:18:58.318)
whatever, as long as I never have to visit any of the platforms that it goes on.
Wilhelm (01:19:03.436)
it'll go on Twitter as well.
Matt Carey (01:19:05.104)
wonderful. Right. Bye bye.
Wilhelm (01:19:07.342)
All right, peace, see ya.
Dude, I need a hack up.
Wilhelm (00:00.94)
What? We're back. interesting. I feel like this is always the length hair you have.
Matt Carey (00:08.087)
No, it gets a lot smaller, shorter on the sides.
Wilhelm (00:12.352)
Is this a male thing that every haircut looks the same?
Matt Carey (00:17.06)
No, it starts coming out on the sides and then I start looking at the side and then
Wilhelm (00:20.564)
I see, I see. But your sideburns looking pretty tidy still. Usually that's my tell for my own haircut readiness when they are like super messy.
Matt Carey (00:29.742)
Yeah, you just gotta trim them,
Wilhelm (00:32.686)
Did you trim them yourself?
Matt Carey (00:35.098)
Well, like, if they get too long, yeah, if they're like down here, that's like really bad. I look awful.
Wilhelm (00:40.632)
Damn, I need to go on your level. Should we roll the intro?
Matt Carey (00:43.876)
Yeah, let's do it.
Matt Carey (00:54.928)
So a new model did drop, Opus 4.7, baby!
Wilhelm (00:55.502)
The thing is, so when we made the intro, it was a little bit sarcastic, right? Like, everything's changing, yeah, right. Prompt ups, yeah, right. But now it's kind of like, shit, everything is changing. Everything has changed and everything continues to change. Maybe we need a new intro. Whoa, did we miss our own birthday? No.
Matt Carey (01:15.994)
Have we been going over a year now?
Matt Carey (01:21.978)
think we missed our birthday,
Wilhelm (01:29.28)
May 14th, first episode. Okay, we have not yet. Almost. We had some big chains on the first episode. Where can you see this? On the first episode, album art. Look at that, what happened to that?
Matt Carey (01:31.5)
Okay, okay, we've got to do a birthday episode.
Matt Carey (01:53.037)
yeah, the chains! Yeah, that was like baller.
Wilhelm (01:57.646)
Ha
That was good. That was good stuff. Okay, that's cool. We can celebrate our first birthday. All right, man. I feel like we have a lot to get through, You've had a massive week. How are you feeling? How's the energy levels?
Matt Carey (02:13.168)
It's great. I've had, I think three massive weeks.
Wilhelm (02:20.546)
Three, okay, yeah.
Matt Carey (02:23.504)
I arrived back home yesterday and I left, so it was the 16th of April yesterday, just to put it in perspective. And I left home, I'm just checking. My flight was on the 30th of March.
Wilhelm (02:32.994)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (02:41.976)
Damn, you haven't been home since. Whoa, okay, that's huge. That's actually, that's a lot.
Matt Carey (02:42.928)
to the US? No. Yeah.
Matt Carey (02:49.558)
Yeah, so like almost three weeks. Yeah. And in that time, in that time I did MCP maintainers day, which like was really good in New York. Then the MCP dev summit. Then met a bunch of people that I'd never met before, but internet friends online in New York. I went to London, had like a couple of days in London before AI engineer, bunch of side events around AI engineer.
Wilhelm (02:53.25)
That's a lot.
Matt Carey (03:18.736)
Obviously, that was my talk, which was why everyone was there. It was incredible, as you might expect. And then I went on ETN, which was very, cool. Yeah, that was good crap. Yeah, had a panel talk with Sunil, which was great. In AI engineer, yeah, obviously did my talk, watched Sunil's talk, was really, really good. And then had a wedding that weekend. I was best man at a wedding.
Wilhelm (03:22.764)
Mm-hmm.
Very much so. my god. The European Technology Network.
Matt Carey (03:48.432)
which was hectic. Yeah, endorse it. And then I hung around in London for a few days afterwards. There was Cloudflare Connect on Wednesday. And then on Thursday, I got an early flight back to Lisbon, stopped off at Cafe Cursor for the afternoon. Really, really cool event. then yeah, arrived back yesterday evening. Had nine hours sleep last night. And did I beat you on sleep school last night?
Wilhelm (03:49.036)
That's awesome. Where was the wedding in the UK?
Wilhelm (04:09.068)
living the life.
Wilhelm (04:17.132)
Ooh, let's check. And it's also Cloudflare Agent Week, of course, this week.
Matt Carey (04:20.644)
Yeah, and this week, the big week is like this week is agents week. And so that all the big releases came out this week, which was hectic. It was very hectic.
Wilhelm (04:29.93)
And the Cloudflare stock has had a tumultuous week as well, which is another layer on top of this crazy time.
Matt Carey (04:35.236)
Yeah.
I'm not sure I can really talk about the stock price. I'm not sure. Maybe we have. Yeah, I'm not gonna.
Wilhelm (04:44.46)
Yeah, you shouldn't. I will comment on the stock price. It's gone up and then it's gone down and then it's gone up again.
Matt Carey (04:54.938)
Sick.
Wilhelm (04:57.696)
Okay, let me, I'll, okay, just to make it not so abstract, I will just say one sentence and then we can move on from the stock price. I used to have almost my entire stock portfolio in Cloudflare stock. I've now actually divested it quite a bit so that it's now a lot of core weave stock as well. And we don't have to go into all of that as well.
But all my various agents have been saying, hey, do you really want to keep all of your money in a single stock? Maybe that's not the best idea. Diversification is a good thing. And then, of course, I think there's like, yeah, well, I feel like the public markets aren't as AI-pilled or AGI-pilled as the people in San Francisco are. And I am one of those people. So it's good to get across some other stocks that are.
also going to have a big uplift if all this AI stuff works out. But it sounded like what happened. But also I think the public markets are very jumpy. So if I look at CloudFest stock price almost every day, and you can see when it goes through some weird, weird swings. For example, the Anthropic Mythos, is that how you say the thing? Anthropic Mythos model was released. Which also we haven't actually talked about on the pod. I think that happened the day after we last recorded, which is...
that was the day before AI engineer. It sounded like everyone was like, my god, let's sell cybersecurity stocks, which makes no sense. And then Cloudflare seemed to got hit by that and then went down quite a bit, but it's recovered a little since then. And we can leave it at that. You don't have to comment any further. Moving on.
Matt Carey (06:34.84)
Yeah, I don't want to be sued or go to prison. No, I'm just I'm just uploading my watch data. My garment didn't sink last night. So you'll get it in a second. for anyone like no one can see this. So I have like an open claw inspired bot. I think we talked about this and last episode we talked about we should sink our sleep data, didn't we? It was literally last episode. And so
Wilhelm (06:40.054)
wait, okay, you didn't...
Wilhelm (06:46.615)
Okay, okay.
Wilhelm (07:00.386)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (07:03.438)
Yeah, I had a fun experience trying to get around Garmin OAuth, but now I have managed and I have tokens and I can fetch my sleep score from my Clanker. Yeah, although it hasn't uploaded it. Wait.
Wilhelm (07:23.534)
That's another topic we should talk about. Yeah, getting Garmin.
Matt Carey (07:23.898)
Maybe we need to check again. Yeah.
Wilhelm (07:30.232)
data into, I actually think getting your health data into these agents is actually one of the most fun things. There was a big tweet from Patrick Carlson about this today actually, about how he's like having his agent like analyze his genome data and recommend specific tests to do and then do more after you get the test results is like really good use. And obviously Garmin tracks a bunch of your metrics like over time, which is very cool. But then yeah, we talked about.
Matt Carey (07:36.687)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (07:50.608)
you
Wilhelm (07:58.318)
You mentioned this thing which I didn't actually realize that in it was it in whoop that you can see your friends like sleep scores over time or an aura
Matt Carey (08:06.286)
Yeah, so fun. was in Whoop. I'm pretty sure Aura does it as well, but I think it was Whoop that we were speaking about.
Wilhelm (08:15.606)
Okay, okay, cool. And you were saying, actually, all your friends have more like garments and not whoops, and garment also makes a sleep score but it doesn't have the social features, so let's just build it ourselves with all this like age and stuff. And we have, and for the past like what, like over a week now, we're in a fierce sleep score competition.
Matt Carey (08:36.954)
Yeah, I've been losing. I've been losing. Why is it using Chrome? I don't understand. It should just be able to fetch it.
Wilhelm (08:45.658)
I it's probably because of Opus 4.7. It probably needs new instructions,
Matt Carey (08:53.476)
Wait, I'm so confused.
Wilhelm (08:54.03)
Do you pin your models in your clanker?
Matt Carey (08:59.643)
yeah, do you know?
Wilhelm (09:05.698)
Mine just chels out to cloud code SDK. it's, it's, it's just uses.
Matt Carey (09:10.865)
it's whatever the default is?
Wilhelm (09:13.165)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (09:14.768)
Are you crazy?
Wilhelm (09:16.472)
Well, there's a little bit of conflict. Like you can default it to higher thinking effort and stuff.
Matt Carey (09:19.98)
nice. Higher thinking. So I saw that about Opus 4.7 that like in Claude online, they're letting the model decide whether it wants to be higher or not. You know, they adapt. I they have the adaptive name and that means that they're just like, like, which I think is crazy. So I just rebooted my Clanker. think some Chrome sometimes freaks out. think if multiple versions of the Clanker try and use Chrome at the same time.
Wilhelm (09:33.336)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (09:50.084)
They, I don't know if there is some bandwidth problems. Like if I have too many Chrome tabs open, it just all crashes, which is quite sad.
Wilhelm (09:50.495)
Interesting.
Wilhelm (09:58.922)
I actually have an interesting browser thing as well to talk about. But yeah, it's a good point. I should investigate that I'm not falling prey to the adaptive thinking issues that might exist. It seems to default to extra high thinking effort from my manual use. Yeah. Which is also new with 4.7.
Matt Carey (10:16.238)
Okay, crazy crazy, maybe I haven't used the agent again I haven't used the Claude agent SDK in a while and you tell have a play
Wilhelm (10:26.529)
But the sleep score thing is super fun. Although I will say, I mean, you've had a busy week and like sleeping like some, some days like less than six hours. So it makes sense that your sleep scores are a bit low, but I've also had some really bad night's Sorry. I had some really bad night's sleep where it gave me a high sleep score. So yeah, I don't know.
Matt Carey (10:38.648)
Help me.
Matt Carey (10:48.569)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (10:51.984)
So, did you, if you have a look back on our sleep scores, there is one night which for mine was horrific. Like I had, oh yeah, no, so actually it was this one, five hours, 45 minutes sleep and I got surprisingly efficient. It said I was surprisingly efficient. I got 69. You don't send me all your sleep data. You just send me the score. Send me all of your data.
Wilhelm (11:02.044)
yeah.
Wilhelm (11:17.282)
Thanks
Wilhelm (11:21.6)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, that...
Matt Carey (11:22.892)
i did- you just sent me the number i wanna know like resting, heart rate, deep sleep, light, REM
Wilhelm (11:26.38)
Hey, this was the Klanker's decision. This was the Klanker's decision. But yeah, I think that would make this more fun if I send you more data. Although I will say your HRV is a lot more healthy than my HRV.
Matt Carey (11:35.61)
Yeah, I want more.
Matt Carey (11:41.712)
Mine's currently unbalanced. Oh no, it's balanced. It's back to balanced. I'm back to like 70 odd.
Wilhelm (11:46.86)
back to... Yeah, then we can plot more stuff, like can plot steps and stuff. Yeah, okay, I'll ask it to set this up. Yeah. you beat me! Nice.
Matt Carey (11:52.89)
Send me more data. Send me all of your data. Right.
There we go! I beat you! So good! 92! Ha ha!
Wilhelm (12:07.854)
To be fair, we both had good night's sleep last night.
Matt Carey (12:10.458)
Yeah, my first night in my own bed for like almost three weeks. Crazy.
Wilhelm (12:15.99)
If any mutuals want to join this thing, please let us know. It would be quite fun. I guess you don't even have to have a garment. You just have to like somehow figure out how to get your data.
Matt Carey (12:21.455)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (12:24.792)
You just have to send me your arbitrary score between zero and a hundred.
Wilhelm (12:30.75)
Exactly. and then also the way I get the data to you is actually using friends.fyi, which also works. It needs some like web hooks or something.
Matt Carey (12:37.946)
Yeah, it's really good. Do you think? I think I just poll it.
Wilhelm (12:42.85)
You just poll it, yeah, but then it's a little bit annoying because I had like a few nights where I slept in and then it didn't poll at the right time and this kind of thing, so.
Matt Carey (12:49.994)
Hmm. Okay. Yeah. No, but this is a problem because I don't allow inbound connections to my clientele.
Wilhelm (13:00.19)
Yeah, I think, okay, but I think eventually you'll want to find a way to allow that, right? Even if you want this to be very restrictive in like, all inbound connections are like severely audited by a whole separate clanker that is like its own model, like it synthesizes it or sorry, it, what's the word? You just don't want it at all?
Matt Carey (13:01.444)
So you can't webhook me.
Matt Carey (13:17.922)
No. No. No. No. I'm not allowing- I'm not allowing inbound connection because like at that point like I have the lethal trifecta to the clanker like I allow egress. No I don't.
Wilhelm (13:29.838)
But don't, no, but you already have the lethal trifecta by making polling outbound connections.
Matt Carey (13:40.226)
I make a polling outbound connection. No, no, make polling outbound connections to specific things.
Wilhelm (13:40.31)
Right? I could prompt inject.
Wilhelm (13:47.83)
Yeah, but I could prompt inject them, right? That's the same as...
Matt Carey (13:50.114)
you could, you could prompt inject me, but you could prompt inject me inside my server anyway. Like you literally have access to like the whole, you have bash access to my container dude.
Wilhelm (13:58.869)
Yeah.
But that's what I mean. If I already have that access anyway, I as a trusted party should be allowed to, in some form, push some data to you. Don't call it an inbound connection. There needs to be some way I can push some data into your thing.
Matt Carey (14:21.828)
Yeah, we need, like, I would prefer to have like a WebSocket message server or something. And so I would have a key and you would have a key. It would be kind of nice. then you would have to have the other side to, you would have to have like a, we would generate keys basically, and you would have to sign your message with a private key that I accept.
Wilhelm (14:31.49)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (14:43.928)
But you can already, those same guarantees you already get from friends.fyi, right, if it has webhooks. Like if you just allow, if you can just look at the identity of the sender.
Matt Carey (14:56.592)
Yes. Do you sign? Yeah, do you sign everything? No, I would want to be able to decrypt it myself. I'd want to be able to like check the signing myself.
Wilhelm (14:57.9)
Obviously, if you trust my platform, that is.
Wilhelm (15:05.954)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, I mean, we can do that. so there is a, I have a branch where it encrypts, I mean, I think this is a much tougher security than what you were describing just now, but like, you can get like asymmetric public key encryption with your GitHub keys. So like, if you go to github.com,
Matt Carey (15:24.587)
yeah, you can. You can basically sign this. Yeah.
Wilhelm (15:28.854)
Yeah, I actually don't think you have this publicly set up, but usually you can go to getup.com slash username dot keys and then keys will show up and then you can, my clanker can use that key to sign this thing. There's a really cool open source project. It's actually a little involved because I think it does like proper encryption. So it like takes some time and stuff. But then I can, yeah, encrypt this with your key.
Matt Carey (15:36.592)
Mm-mm.
Wilhelm (15:55.47)
and with your public key and then you can decrypt it when it arrives. But I think this is a lot more extreme security than...
Matt Carey (16:03.588)
Yeah, I don't need it to be encrypted in flight. I just want it to be signed. I just want to it came from you. we have some method, because it's peer to peer, right? Like we have some method of communication where like, I know that at least it was your Clanker's domain or your Clanker's machine that sent me that message.
Wilhelm (16:08.181)
Okay.
Wilhelm (16:12.183)
Right, right, right.
Bye.
Wilhelm (16:20.363)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (16:25.613)
Mm-hmm
Yeah, so friends.fyi does guarantee that now because it forces you to have a sender and it doesn't allow unauthed messages anymore. Now that we have the clanker first sign up using gists, it's hard to might, so if you trust my GitHub identity, right, it's like the same as if I left a comment or whatever on your issue. If you trust that, then this is the same thing.
Matt Carey (16:42.746)
Yeah, that's cool.
Matt Carey (16:54.372)
Yeah, no, fair, fair, fair. then I would like, yeah, we would add some sort of method of WebSockets. Sorry, no, we would add some.
Wilhelm (17:00.694)
Yeah, I guess maybe signing gives you some more guarantees. Like maybe it gives you some more like, yeah, I'm sure you could add some JWT thing or whatever.
Matt Carey (17:10.0)
Yeah, what does signing give you? Signing gives you that at certain time you had the ability, you had access to it.
Wilhelm (17:17.664)
It prevents replay attacks or something like that. Something reasonably minor or whatever. I don't know.
Matt Carey (17:20.836)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (17:26.736)
Hmm.
Wilhelm (17:27.384)
Would you not want my sleep data to be replayed against your... Is that a concern?
Matt Carey (17:32.304)
It's not your sleep data that's the problem, it's your...
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelm (17:42.562)
Well, I just think like eventually we all, with agents, right, it's a little bit like this thing where if you embrace it, you can get so many more of these benefits. then everyone, the lethal trapezoid thing obviously is real, prompt injection is real, but also some of these models are pretty good at prompt injection detection. And I think you could build your own little like enclave thing where like any inbound stuff that arrives is actually like audited and like cleaned and like tidied up.
pretty hard before you then let that same data into your main agent loop where it's much more loosey goosey.
Matt Carey (18:20.046)
You could, you could. I think we're getting off topic here. Like I care.
Wilhelm (18:25.454)
Well, I think it's interesting though, because you like, think everyone or I for sure have wanted to build that for myself. haven't yet. Like I actually have a similar set up to you in that, like, I don't really allow any inbound stuff at the moment, but I think it's coming and we have to like figure out how to, and the premise of it is pretty cool. And then Anthropic launched their inbound product recently, right? Like what's it called? Routines or something, which can be webhook initiated.
Matt Carey (18:45.552)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (18:57.486)
Yeah, both, both.
I don't know if any of them have prompt injection endpoints. Opening I used to have like a moderation endpoint, which I'm pretty sure was like a data collection, the data harvest. It was a free moderation endpoint. I'm like, that is a hundred percent a data harvest situation. But I don't know. don't know. It's a cool idea. It's a cool idea. There probably should be some open source package that has some like private list of.
Wilhelm (19:05.934)
Mmm. Not cool.
Wilhelm (19:12.174)
There you go.
Matt Carey (19:29.776)
prompts that you can run over. No, sorry, it wouldn't be private. That just has like some epic list of prompts that you can run over an input to check whether it's legit or not. Just loads of heuristics, and that should probably be public. That would be a good open source idea. Someone should do that.
Wilhelm (19:42.22)
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (19:50.392)
That would be cool, yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Matt Carey (19:52.548)
Because the moderation endpoints, I'm not sure I want moderation endpoints. Like ideally, if this was running on your Mac, you would want local LLM to check the problem.
Wilhelm (19:59.917)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (20:06.606)
Mmm. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, Yep.
Matt Carey (20:10.926)
because you could run like a really small model and then you wouldn't pay extra for it. Cause I don't think you should be paid. That's not really intelligence you need there. It's like pattern matching. So yeah, sure. You use some LLMs, but you should also use some like reject heuristics, a bunch of other, like a bunch of other methods just to see it. It's like, is this a weird, is this weird? Like you should be able to use like Zod to check like, this JSON even? Or am I being
Wilhelm (20:20.302)
Right.
Wilhelm (20:26.584)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (20:39.296)
It's not as hard a task as what you would use a big Frontier model for.
Matt Carey (20:46.894)
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Wilhelm (20:48.302)
I feel like I actually have a reasonably poor understanding of the strength of all the different small models. Like I don't know how good Gemini 3.1 Flash is in comparison to like 4.5 Haiku versus a Quen or a local model, yeah.
Matt Carey (21:02.49)
Yeah, think, I think, yeah, like Gemma, Gemma for the open source Gemini models. So the open source Google models are like really, really decent, like Gemma for I think was really cool. And then there was a few other, obviously there were like the big ones that people tried to use for coding like Kimmy 2.5 and like the GLM models.
Is it GLM 5 point something? GLM 5.1? I don't know. But they're like, right for coding. But I think for something like this, like you'd want like a 6 billion parameter. My friends at Stack One, know, the place used to work. They made a 600 million per am model or even like 200 million per am model that just checked for prompt injection.
Wilhelm (21:31.565)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (21:47.618)
I do.
Wilhelm (21:51.341)
I will.
Wilhelm (21:57.146)
cool, yeah that sounds like exactly, that sounds like, yeah. No I agree, a smaller model makes sense for this.
Matt Carey (21:59.888)
It was, it was really sick. Like, I mean, I have no idea. Like how well it worked, but it'd be one step in like a multi-step pipeline to be like anything that comes in, we need to do all of these checks.
Wilhelm (22:12.91)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it makes sense, makes sense.
Matt Carey (22:14.788)
I mean, if you signed it, wouldn't have to do anything.
Wilhelm (22:18.462)
yeah, yeah. I, okay, wait, speaking of open source stuff and browsers as well. Have you heard of BB browser? It stands for bad boy browser. and I saw this on a hacker news comment, like maybe a couple of weeks ago.
Matt Carey (22:30.021)
Hmm.
Matt Carey (22:34.0)
No, what is this?
Matt Carey (22:38.0)
What?
Wilhelm (22:44.276)
And I thought it was a really cool idea, but I didn't actually investigate it much until yesterday when I was trying... yeah, go on.
Matt Carey (22:51.812)
on.
No dude, this is...
This is amazing, okay. This is like agent browser.
Wilhelm (23:05.112)
Say more. Do I know agent browser?
Matt Carey (23:07.652)
Yeah, so agent browsers, the is like the Bersel thing. It's like the wrapper around CDP, like a nice CLI around the CDP protocol. And that's cool because CDP allows you to click on stuff. It allows you to like run JavaScript in your browser. It allows you to like navigate to pages and all of that sort of stuff and use like the window object.
Wilhelm (23:15.195)
I see.
Wilhelm (23:24.078)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (23:33.038)
all of this cool stuff. It just allows you to remotely control the browser. That's how the Clanker works.
Wilhelm (23:39.638)
Yeah, so BBBrowser does that, but it does another thing, which is why I bring it up, which I think is the thing that I thought was really, really cool. So it does wrap CDP as does your skill and agent browser, looks like. But the other thing that BBBrowser does is it's kind of like a two-step thing. So the idea is it starts off doing CDP.
and clicking around and using it the way a human would use the browser. But then it captures all of the network logs and the request payloads, and it basically learns the API of the thing that you're using so that it can then build from that data a utility that the agent can use directly. Yeah, like...
Matt Carey (24:07.12)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (24:18.735)
grips.
Yeah, that's how my Clanker works. Yeah.
Wilhelm (24:26.082)
Really? I thought it takes screenshots and stuff, like it...
Matt Carey (24:30.064)
Yeah, but how does it do that? It writes code that then it runs on the browser. So once it's done it the first time, it just writes scripts and then it executes the script.
Wilhelm (24:37.122)
But the script still like click buttons and stuff,
Matt Carey (24:46.896)
Mm, yes. Sometimes, don't have to. The scripts are like navigate to this page and take a screenshot. That's the...
Wilhelm (24:50.476)
Like what I'm saying this thing is like it.
Wilhelm (24:56.076)
No, no, sure, sure, sure. That makes perfect sense to me. But I think the cool thing that this thing does, which I hadn't seen before, I don't know if everyone does this or not, whatever. But I think the thing that I thought was really cool is that it captures all of the local network traffic in the first pass. And then from that, using an LLM can generate essentially the way the API works, the internal like...
Matt Carey (25:04.995)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (25:24.98)
only kind of like API that actually ends up getting called with like your session cooking, whatever. And then it can execute that stuff directly. So then it's actually no longer firing up a browser. Like when the script actually runs, it's not like taking screenshots. It's just like using your auth data and the APIs directly. So it's kind of like a two-step thing.
Matt Carey (25:47.96)
Are you sure?
Wilhelm (25:56.11)
And then people have made all these community packages, right? For like browsing Twitter or GitHub or Stack Overflow, where like that internal API shape is like captured and then you can use it directly. So I used this yesterday because I was trying to find like a, I was trying to find a friend on Strava and Strava search was just like awful in the mobile app. didn't really work for like, I didn't want to click through like 50 pages.
on, I didn't want to click through like 50 pages on the like website. So I asked this thing to do it. And yeah, like first it opens Java and like search some things and then it captured the API. But then it was able to like hit the API directly, like the internal API and then give me like what I was looking for.
Matt Carey (26:39.162)
Yeah, no.
Matt Carey (26:43.612)
What it says it does, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that what it says it does is it writes, it catches all the network requests, writes a script, writes, it says it writes like...
Reverse engine is the API. Test interest.
and it writes this like adapter script.
Wilhelm (27:09.846)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But as far as I know, the adapter script doesn't fire up the browser anymore.
Matt Carey (27:17.914)
So what it says here is it's like agent whatever to BBROWSER CLI over HTTP to the daemon, which is the thing that's running that's communicating over CDP web sockets to your real browser. It does say it's using the browser.
Wilhelm (27:38.431)
interesting.
Matt Carey (27:38.724)
Like, you need a browser.
Wilhelm (27:41.602)
I mean, you for sure need a browser the first time around.
Matt Carey (27:46.65)
Okay, let's machine choose the adapter runs eval inside your browser tab, calls fetch with your cookies, or invokes the pages own webpack modules.
Wilhelm (27:48.942)
But,
Matt Carey (28:00.154)
Complex also, yeah, the page handles it itself. Yeah, it's still using a browser,
Wilhelm (28:06.35)
Interesting. Maybe...
Matt Carey (28:07.28)
It's still using Chrome. It's like writing scripts. It's the same thing as what I'm doing.
Wilhelm (28:12.994)
Maybe my agent then just extended it. Because the idea makes sense, right?
Matt Carey (28:16.464)
Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. I'm just not saying, it doesn't sound like that's what this does.
Wilhelm (28:26.488)
Well, okay, the thing I will say also about this thing, like I wouldn't put that much trust into the readme because it's like the whole CLI when you download it is actually all in Chinese. So, and then also it does all this like live updating. Like I think actually maybe only the readme is an angle, like a bunch of the commits are in Chinese. So I have like a private fork of this. Yeah.
Matt Carey (28:32.367)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (28:37.551)
giant.
Matt Carey (28:46.724)
Yeah, everything looks like it's in 20. Yeah.
Wilhelm (28:50.828)
that I had a whole codex do a pass for security stuff. I had to delete all of the auto-fetching, auto-updating code. And...
Matt Carey (29:01.613)
Okay, so you fork this. You should, you should publish your fork, man.
Wilhelm (29:07.662)
you
Matt Carey (29:08.656)
You actually should because this looks cool. This looks like they've productized what my clanker does. And I think that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so we have a bunch of trainings that we have to do at work.
Wilhelm (29:16.417)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (29:24.802)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (29:30.274)
Maybe I'm not going to carry on with that sentence.
Wilhelm (29:32.59)
I have an idea of where that was going. Okay, interesting.
Matt Carey (29:38.682)
Hahaha!
Matt Carey (29:42.788)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelm (29:44.11)
Let me also send you the comment where I saw this initially because I think for me just the CDP stuff, it has been a little bit unreliable in general. And I much prefer the idea of, there is a private API which the browser just calls. As long as you send the right data to it, it's fine. Then you don't need a browser at all. You just need something that looks like a browser, which...
Matt Carey (29:57.55)
Yeah, write a script.
Matt Carey (30:06.48)
No, but there's no way you're getting around like... If anything has like Cloudflare on it, you're screwed. Because they check whether you have like eyeballs on the page.
Wilhelm (30:16.227)
Okay.
Matt Carey (30:21.296)
Like, Twitter went wild.
Wilhelm (30:21.317)
There's a curl alternative that gets around some of this. Like obviously not the strictest Cloudflare thing that checks if you're, I don't know, I'm sure Cloudflare does all sorts of stuff. But there is like a, there is like a curl.
Wilhelm (30:38.574)
It's called like CXI or something. It's like a basically like a curl drop in that presents all the right browser headers and like the right like challenges and compute the right stuff. like basically it's just what I'm saying. It's nice not to have to use a browser if you can. Yeah.
Matt Carey (30:47.576)
Right, OK.
Matt Carey (30:51.706)
That's cool.
Matt Carey (30:55.622)
yeah, on the... I didn't have to use a browser in my Clanker, it'd be so good. But for the Garmin stuff that I did with the Clanker, I had loads of problems getting an OAuth token. I had to get an OAuth token on my laptop. And even capturing the OAuth token was really, really hard because if I did it as a script to capture it, then I actually got blocked by Cloudflare.
Wilhelm (31:02.723)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (31:09.22)
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (31:24.044)
Right. How interesting.
Matt Carey (31:24.708)
because the endpoints are all mega protected. And if I did it in the browser, then the OAuth token wasn't valid because it was connected to the wrong resource or something. There was some issues because I couldn't run, I needed to do it from the app because it needed to, the OAuth token from my browser wouldn't work on the, it was too locked down or something. Something was broken. I can't remember the exact details again. So I ended up.
Wilhelm (31:27.822)
You
Wilhelm (31:36.396)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (31:41.281)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (31:51.632)
Yeah, I mean to do some proper hacky stuff to get an OAuth token that looked like it was coming from the app so I could use the app APIs rather than from my browser which is way more locked down.
Wilhelm (32:06.274)
Yeah,
Matt Carey (32:08.034)
And honestly, all of this stuff, like they just need to make it easier. It's all the comp like, like all the companies think that if they hold onto their data, then they become valuable because they have data. And that doesn't work because in order to sell your product, you have to give, you have to show people the data. And so there are going to be like numpties like us who work out how to get the data or you manage to use it all because, because at some point you have to give it to someone, right? Like.
Wilhelm (32:31.854)
You
Matt Carey (32:37.804)
Like you have to give it, can't, otherwise you have no product. So, so why don't you just go the whole nine yards and make your platform open and then make it a place where people can share data easily. and maybe, maybe that will be a, yeah. And this is the cool thing about AI, right? Like another cool thing about AI is that just like, I would never ever have spent the amount of time needed for me to.
Wilhelm (32:52.012)
Yeah, I agree. We're heading in that direction.
Wilhelm (33:06.158)
Totally.
Matt Carey (33:07.04)
Garmin OAuth before. I just let it run while I was doing something else and it took a long time, like maybe two or three hours. then it needed a bit of help from me and I had a little idea which got around it. But I wouldn't have got to that starting point at all. I wouldn't even been on the start line without AI. And that's so cool because in all of the things about AI, we've had this thing where
Wilhelm (33:27.598)
Totally.
Matt Carey (33:36.174)
feels like data is getting more closed, like labs are paying for data, people are making more stuff private because they don't want models to train on it. When in this case, SaaS companies are having to open up their data to stay relevant. And I think that is really cool. Or we're able to exfiltrate some of that data, which is our data. It's like we're literally paying for this data. Give it to us.
Wilhelm (33:49.9)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (33:54.336)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (33:59.36)
It's literally my sleep, bro. Why are you guarding it? I think we'll also see a lot more hackable stuff in general, right? Or a lot more, like even with like an Apple watch, right? It's like, it's my screen that I'm wearing on my wrist. Why can't I put things on it, you know? And now with AI, you can, it's much easier for anyone to put things on the screen. You don't need like a degree in.
Matt Carey (34:02.252)
It is. Why are you guarding it? Anyway.
Wilhelm (34:25.954)
putting things on the screen and then pay Apple a fee to put things on the screen.
Matt Carey (34:27.674)
So, so now.
Matt Carey (34:31.676)
Sunil did this great talk, AI engineer, he talked about, Sunil, yeah, he talked about, he was like, what happens in a world where all of your users can write perfect code?
Wilhelm (34:45.388)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (34:47.21)
What happens there? In the past, people... everything was quite restricted, right? Because... we got another... It sent us again. It sent us the full thing. Anyway, in the past, people were quite restricted. They had to make UIs in order for most people to be able to access the data. Because you can't expect someone to curl an endpoint to access data. That's just not okay.
You also can't expect giving some data in JSON to someone to be like an appropriate way of delivering data. People need UIs. They need to be able to like visualize something. Like, like they need to be able to do that sort of stuff. And, and.
Wilhelm (35:24.322)
You
Wilhelm (35:31.242)
I have been telling my family for years, you wanna know how I am? Just curl my endpoint, bro. You get the JSON, you get all the things you need.
Matt Carey (35:35.522)
Exactly.
You've been prepping for this agentic future for years, but now, but now when like all of your users are actually your previous users agents, what happens? Like those agents can write perfect code. They don't necessarily need a UI. They, they, they, they just need the data. And so give agents the data, just let them write code. think, um, I forgot what his, the title of his talk was, but it's like my,
Wilhelm (35:42.766)
you
Matt Carey (36:07.556)
My thing is just let the agents write code. Just let them write code and it will be better. And I had this massive rant about declarative generative UI. Generative UI in JSON, which is making a little bit of a comeback. People are claiming that. No, MCP apps return and let you render an iframe. MCP apps can.
Wilhelm (36:10.274)
Just that. Totally.
Wilhelm (36:17.41)
Declarative, yeah, go on.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (36:25.612)
This is how MCP apps work, right?
Wilhelm (36:32.91)
Mmm, okay, so it's not at all how they work.
Matt Carey (36:36.078)
Yeah, no, so MCV apps you can like write HTML and whatever. But there are some platforms or not platforms, Yeah, there are some platforms which are promoting a JSON like structure or a JSON structure, which then you can like compile basically into your own UI. So the model returns JSON with a button here, a button there, and they've made this whole like DSL.
Wilhelm (36:39.726)
Cool, cool,
Wilhelm (36:43.852)
Yeah, like Slack apps. It is how Slack apps work.
Wilhelm (36:51.939)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (36:57.781)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (37:05.712)
And then out of that, you compile your own UI. And I just think that's so backwardly facing, because that's what we tried to We tried to do this in 2020. I remember the folks at Langchain trying to do this in 2020. And the models just weren't being that great. But returning JSON, and then from that JSON, you had some pre-written components that you would try and match the JSON to look at the components. And you would have like, oh, this is
going to be a card with this title and this description. And then from that, render the component. And I think it's so backwards because the models can write better React than I can.
Wilhelm (37:40.141)
Yeah, yeah,
Wilhelm (37:46.914)
So I'm actually totally with you because I I spent 10 years writing JSON based UIs, right? For SimplePool and they've invested a lot of effort into making their JSON UI good. And there are some benefits, right? it, and they've, partially because Slack has invested so much in the sense that as a developer, you just get to ship some JSON around and it looks beautiful. It looks beautiful. First of all, you don't have to design it yourself at all. Like some designers designed it. And then also it works across.
web, like desktop, iOS and Android, and it just kind of works. The problem is that it actually doesn't fully work all the time and you have these weird, like behavioral differences. So you're, and you're not in control at all of some of these differences. Like for us, like various buttons have just stopped working or a flow that made perfect sense doesn't work, make sense anymore because of like some change that an iOS Slack designer made, which maybe makes sense for some others, but like not for us. And then the probably biggest problem.
was always that you just can't quite design it the way you want all the way. Like you are really limited still in like specific things. Like you want to have a label just on this side, just for this one flow. Nope, you can't do that. You wanna have like a button on the side of this thing, not like underneath it. Nope, can't do that. And that's even with Slack investing like a ton into this, which obviously this is all like pre-AI, pre-agent stuff, but I'm inclined to agree with you.
Matt Carey (39:15.002)
Like why don't they let you render your own UI there? Well, I think there's like kind of two main reasons. One of them was important previously and the other one is like more important now. And I guess the first one that was important previously is they lose their like brand image in their own product. So Slack as a product wants a cohesive brand design. And so they're not going to let you render your, like as a third party, like go to hell. Like you're not going to render your own design. You're going to use our design. That makes sense.
Wilhelm (39:32.418)
Yep. Yep.
Matt Carey (39:44.688)
Secondly, and that's not really a problem then because like iframes are relatively relatively secure, but like for other things people don't let you write code because they're gonna have to run that code on their server and that's kind of dodgy like really dodgy like that used to be that is a CVE like if you allow remote code execution that's bad We've been told that's bad. And so there's this whole like branch of the internet or branch of computing that
Wilhelm (40:08.814)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (40:14.938)
People haven't really discovered yet because we stopped giving each other code to run back when punch cards existed. As soon as everything moved to the cloud and stuff and we started sending each other payloads over the internet, we stopped sending each other code. How weird would it be if I sent you some code and you just ran it programmatically? That would be pretty weird. You'd never do that.
Wilhelm (40:23.31)
Right.
Wilhelm (40:41.548)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (40:44.558)
We used to do that with like punch cards. would like punch on my cards and then I would send, I would walk up to you and we'll send them to you back in the fifties, whenever it was. And you would run them like as the computer operator, you would run my cards. Like you're running my own trusted code, you know?
Wilhelm (40:58.744)
Damn, yeah. I think this is finally clicking for me what you're pitching here. That's really cool.
Matt Carey (41:06.316)
So there's this whole branch of computing and sharing of code that we never really got. And the closest to it we got was GitHub. That was the closest we got, but we didn't quite get there. Yeah, iframe's pretty good as well.
Wilhelm (41:14.412)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maybe iframes? There used to be much more of a culture of putting other people's iframes on your page maybe?
Matt Carey (41:28.272)
Yeah, and remember Flash? I wasn't really developing code there, but there was a lot of people who would render games from other places and stuff. There were things where people did that.
Wilhelm (41:39.47)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (41:43.598)
Damn, you're right. It's like a whole branch that we have just not done because how to generate code, sandbox. yeah. Sorry, go on.
Matt Carey (41:49.584)
Yeah. And, and I think we got so invested in, yeah, we got so, we got so invested in Jason of like sending Jason payloads rather than sending like richer payloads. Like Jason, if I send you something like that, it can't have a function on it. It can't have any like logic in it, but yeah, but like, maybe I want to send you something that has some logic and you can pick one thing or another. Oh no, sorry. Now you have to.
Wilhelm (42:09.038)
It can't have any binary data in it.
Matt Carey (42:19.482)
do the logic on your side and then request the new data from me. Or you have to call an endpoint that does my logic on my side. Like there's this whole deeper interaction layer that we haven't discovered. like the...
Wilhelm (42:23.03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (42:32.514)
So code mode is like the first example of this, like opening up this whole branch, right? Where the client generates the code and then the server just runs it.
Matt Carey (42:41.636)
Yeah, I think code mode is exciting for this reason. But I think you'll see this in so many other places in the future. We just haven't had the inclination to do it yet. But there wasn't the time when all of your users could write perfect code. And now your users can write maybe not perfect code, but they can write code.
Wilhelm (43:09.73)
Yeah, and certainly the way things are going, it will become perfect code.
Matt Carey (43:15.182)
Yeah. So I think this is super.
Wilhelm (43:16.918)
Okay, wait. I have, you've thought about this a lot more than me. So besides code mode, what, where else is this going to show up? So I guess like there's a thing where like, you know, maybe if you ship some product of sorts, right? Like say you ship a mobile calorie tracking app, whatever. And in there, it has like a tab where you can, it's like an Claude code codex tab and you can tell it what
Matt Carey (43:35.13)
Hmm.
Wilhelm (43:44.682)
additional features you want to have in the app and then they show up. I guess that's kind of like one way, but that's still that's still yourself though. Like yeah, what what yeah, what else are you thinking about?
Matt Carey (43:55.726)
Yeah, so there's like the whole idea of personalized UI. That's pretty cool. And personalized features. Features that, whole features that exist in some object storage somewhere, keyed by user. That's pretty sick. I think we'll see much more of that. Which we basically have that in our Clanker, right? The start of it. Like we have scripts that exist only for me and you.
Wilhelm (44:14.882)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (44:25.688)
and they're only accessible in certain channels, right? Like, they're not accessible to everyone. They're just personalised for this particular feature in this particular channel and they're built on demand and then stored for future. And I think we'll have like a lot of that type of stuff. think the world, like the internet's about to get a really weird place where it's going to become a lot more personalised. Yeah, like a lot more personalised for better or for worse.
Wilhelm (44:26.294)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (44:36.13)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (44:50.112)
even more weird?
Matt Carey (44:55.792)
Even more, okay, so that's one thing.
Wilhelm (44:56.172)
Yep.
Wilhelm (44:59.916)
No, I love this direction. Like imagine an internet that's primarily everyone has their own little code thing, as opposed to everyone scrolling on TikTok. That sounds like a much better internet.
Matt Carey (45:12.282)
Yeah, or just like tools will become more flexible. Like I think there's the interaction pattern with tools is gonna change as well. So for instance, like we're just talking about Garmin here, right?
Like the fact that Garmin ships an app, probably the next generation of hardware startups are not going to ship apps. I would guess. Like if I was, if I was starting a startup right now, I wouldn't ship an app. I would ship a server and that server connect over MCP. That server would connect.
Wilhelm (45:38.6)
I see, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (45:44.086)
Yep. Yeah, yeah, Totally. Or like a good spec or a good MD file of your APIs or whatever.
Matt Carey (45:54.596)
Yeah, I would ship a nice API. I'd ship a really accessible server is what I would ship. And then like people can do what they want with it. But like, and this sounds so dumb to most people because most people aren't mega internet technical, but their agents will be. So you've got to like stop thinking that we're selling to like people and you're actually just selling to people's agents. imagine I...
Wilhelm (46:13.686)
Yeah, yeah,
Wilhelm (46:19.692)
You just make something agents want.
Matt Carey (46:23.364)
Dude, hold that thought.
Wilhelm (46:26.22)
No, no, you were wearing that t-shirt last time. That's why I mentioned it. I really want that t-shirt. I think it's really smart. Plaster it on your walls. Make something Asians want.
Matt Carey (46:29.872)
Oh, was I wearing it last time? Oh, okay.
Yeah. But so your interaction pattern with Garmin would change, right? Because if in the future, okay, here's a, Rohan won't mind me talking about this. I've got a friend who I actually invested and he makes a back pain for wearables. Sorry, he makes wearable for back pain. Jesus, why I need to get more sleep.
Wilhelm (47:01.898)
Hahaha
Matt Carey (47:01.956)
He makes a wearable, a back pain for wearables. He makes a wearable for back pain. And it's super cool. It's like a bunch of electrodes, which you tape to your back, lasts a few days and then you replace them or you replace the tape and like it's super comfortable. And he basically tracks your, it's called Curve, C-U-R-V. And it basically, it essentially tracks your back and the state of your back throughout the day. And like a lot of people have back pain and it's a sick wearable. Cool.
Wilhelm (47:16.462)
What's it called?
Wilhelm (47:27.603)
cool.
Matt Carey (47:32.602)
He spent a lot of time building an app because obviously you need an app to connect via Bluetooth to the electrodes on your back and then do your tracking data, the same with Garmin, right? And then we were just chatting about a world, like a future world, and we were like, why would you need an app? Like if in the future, like you access all of this stuff through someone else's app.
Wilhelm (47:42.552)
This looks sick, I might just buy this.
Matt Carey (47:59.406)
Somewhat like a, like a model app or like an agent app, like the agent OS idea where like chat, GPD has an app that, that is your main or probably the OS of your, of your mobile is the app, right? Like there are no like actual apps. It's just the OS of your mobile. And then your, your phone connects via Bluetooth directly to your, to your electrodes on your back. And then there is some, there is some sort of.
Wilhelm (48:00.685)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (48:28.494)
way of registering apps on your phone, but they're like backend apps. You're like, I need this Bluetooth data. And all it does is it sends it straight to your server. You can process it. the, like, I guess the way that the user interacts with your device is through their mobile OS. So their mobile OS, next to your server as the provider of the mobile device.
Wilhelm (48:50.422)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Matt Carey (48:57.072)
And then your mobile OS generates the UIs it needs on demand. for instance, he has this really cool UI where it sees your back throughout the day. And that could just be generated. That's just a bunch of points on a canvas, right? It's not hard to generate. And it's just generated on demand. And then you need stats. OK, stats are fetched. UI table generated. Done. I don't think we're going to have these individual apps. think Apple is going to have to change.
Apple invented these like individual app things on a phone and that's going to change, man. That's not going be around.
Wilhelm (49:29.55)
Hmm.
Yeah, I was thinking about this. It's the one year anniversary of the Johnny Ive Apple video announcement, the IO joining Apple thing. I think that was in early May. So I feel like surely they will have to announce something or do something on the one year anniversary. Have you heard rumors about what this device supposedly is? Because there's a lot of rumors.
Matt Carey (49:58.51)
I heard rumors that it's not going to have a screen and I feel like that's a massive
Wilhelm (50:03.704)
What
Matt Carey (50:05.04)
Dude, people are addicted to screens.
Wilhelm (50:09.198)
What, okay, so if it's not, if it doesn't have a screen, what is it? Like I've heard, okay, yeah, yeah, fair, fair. I mean, they have to start somewhere, I guess. But do you think it'll be earbuds or as someone told me, it will be a pen?
Matt Carey (50:14.04)
I want a phone with no app.
Matt Carey (50:21.934)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (50:27.275)
school.
I don't write anything though. I have a pen next to me, but I don't use it.
Wilhelm (50:30.324)
smart pen.
Put that, quote that, that's a good... Wait, I was gonna say something else. yeah, I think that this is a great vision for hardware in general, also because usually the apps suck. Like the hardware apps really, like the apps that come with hardware, they're so bad. Like... Yeah.
Matt Carey (50:50.032)
That's so good!
I think we should get into hardware because I think actually it's getting a lot easier to get into hardware because you won't have to make any software. You would just make a server that everything communicates to. And so there are these activity trackers that are rings. They're Chinese. They're like 20 quid or something. might buy you one. And they come with open source firmware. So people have made like a bunch of like Python clients for them. And they're like pretty easy to connect to over BLE, like Bluetooth Low Energy.
Wilhelm (51:00.8)
Yeah, you know...
Wilhelm (51:15.394)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (51:22.304)
Yeah, yeah, this sounds, this sounds sick. There's a yeah, you know, Eric Michikowski, the Pebble founder, he's rebooting Pebble at the moment, like the watch that kind of started all the smartwatch thing like this. So
Matt Carey (51:26.245)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (51:35.894)
Google by Google,
Wilhelm (51:39.104)
Kind of like Pebble's assets were acquired by Fitbit, I think. So it wasn't like a great acquisition. then Fitbit by, and then some people inside Google convinced Google to open source Pebble OS. So, which was like most of the software that they had built. And now because of that, he's kind of relaunching Pebble because he doesn't have to rebuild all the software. And because building software is much, much more straightforward. And he says, actually, hardware is.
Matt Carey (51:43.248)
And then Fitbit got bought by Google.
Matt Carey (52:01.593)
shit!
Wilhelm (52:07.438)
going to be much easier because software is much easier.
Matt Carey (52:10.266)
Yeah, I think this is super cool. Dude, I've been wanting to, so the Clanker, we've like ironed out a lot of problems with it and it's basically just an agent loop that you can trigger on cron jobs with like events and stuff and it can write scripts that access a browser and also the scripts can do loads of other stuff, but it can write scripts and it saves scripts. And it also have skills to tell you how to use the scripts, like markdown files to tell you how to use the scripts. And it has like a bunch of MCP connections that are hard coded in a code tool.
Like, that's it, that's all my clanker is. And I was like, this, you need to know quite a lot to put this together, still, even in this day and age. We should sell clanker boxes.
Wilhelm (52:49.634)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
anchor boxes.
Matt Carey (52:56.046)
Like genuinely, like little raspberry pies with software or just sell the software or even not sell it, like bloody give it away. Like I was gonna make an image. Yeah. Selling clanker boxes. Yeah, clanker rings would be fucking cool.
Wilhelm (53:05.612)
this is what you mean by getting into hardware. Selling clanker boxes. Clanker rings.
Wilhelm (53:17.474)
There's so much to talk about with this. Did you see the M5 stack?
Matt Carey (53:19.312)
Dude, I don't wanna see you. Sorry, what'd you say?
Wilhelm (53:24.236)
No, I just said, did you see the M5 stack? Some anthropic people were tweeting about this. It's like a very cheap, it's a very cheap, wait, let me just send you the Amazon link. I'll send you.
Matt Carey (53:31.115)
M5
Matt Carey (53:41.552)
I love a conversation that starts, let me send you the Amazon link.
Wilhelm (53:46.318)
So it's like a very cheap hardware device with a screen that costs $30 and Claude can control it.
Matt Carey (54:00.206)
Wait, wait, can you send me the link?
Wilhelm (54:03.21)
Yeah, wait, I sent it in the chat here in the Riverside chat.
Wilhelm (54:10.508)
I can make a copy to WhatsApp.
Matt Carey (54:13.016)
No, no, no, can maybe find it. there we go.
Matt Carey (54:18.096)
I have a look.
Wilhelm (54:18.434)
and while you're looking this up, the thing I was looking at earlier, which is the curl that gets around Cloudfair is called curl cffi, which I think.
Matt Carey (54:26.0)
Yeah, oh, okay. So this is an ESP32 Pico. Okay, cool. Yeah, these are cool. So we used to play with, I think I have one of these. I have one of these chips hanging around.
Wilhelm (54:40.213)
yeah, I didn't notice the I used to have one of these chips as well actually, but I never built anything with it.
Matt Carey (54:44.09)
My, my, well, one of my brother's flatmates at university used to play a lot with, he still does, with these chips. Yeah, it's an, yeah, it's literally an ESP.
Wilhelm (54:54.498)
Because they're super cheap, right? And they have Wi-Fi and, you know.
Matt Carey (54:57.968)
They're like a Fiverr or something. You normally have to have a Wi-Fi, some of them have Wi-Fi, some of them you need a Wi-Fi module. But this one seems like it's got loads of stuff to it. This one's got, obviously it's got that little screen on the top of it, it's got a microphone, it's got all of the extras. It's pretty cool, man.
Wilhelm (55:13.784)
So maybe we could make our own Johnny Ive I.O. with one of these boys for $30 and just, we call it a thin hardware, fat model. That's the new paradigm.
Matt Carey (55:20.026)
we could make our own Flanker Bot.
Matt Carey (55:26.938)
Dude, honestly, this is sick. Stopwares getting thinner. Everything collapses into the model. You should write a blog post that goes viral,
Wilhelm (55:37.358)
Okay, we haven't even talked about all of your stuff. No, sorry, go on, go on.
Matt Carey (55:40.752)
What would you do with
What would you even do with this? The screen is too small to do anything.
Wilhelm (55:49.806)
just gotta let your creativity run loose.
Matt Carey (55:50.896)
Maybe the screen is just like the dog, like my little doggy, like just dancing. Maybe that's the only thing that we've shown.
Wilhelm (55:57.482)
Exactly. Just take it to a festival. I think one of the anthropic people was saying that they have it whenever Claude has a permission prompt, it shows up on the screen.
Matt Carey (56:03.716)
Ha ha ha!
Matt Carey (56:10.49)
Yeah, that's amazing. Wait, they don't, yeah, they can't do dangerously skipped permissions. I haven't been asked for permissions in like a good, I wanna say like seven months, eight months.
Wilhelm (56:23.734)
Okay. That's interesting because I started getting asked for permissions recently for, with a really annoying cloud code bug, which is that they made a security thing like in mid March, which where it can't edit its own skill files or its own settings. And that needs to be manually approved. And there's no way around it as far as I know.
Matt Carey (56:33.476)
Hmm.
Matt Carey (56:42.458)
That's annoying. that's not that's so it can't like give itself more permissions, isn't it? I had that dude. So, know, I have this, you know, I this like get rapper and we can get on to talking about the fun stuff, but like have this, yeah, it's Aggie, right? The whole point is Aggie is you can put like agent is true basically in your ZSH file or in your, in your, in your shell and your shell config and
Wilhelm (56:47.938)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes sense, but I just don't want it.
Wilhelm (56:56.184)
Zaggy.
Wilhelm (57:04.494)
Mm.
Matt Carey (57:10.032)
If you do that, it will add some more permission sets to your Git so that if you try and balk your repo and destroy all the history or lose any changes that you have locally, it will... It just basically won't let you make destructive changes. And I was like, this is a great idea. And it worked pretty well for code code. I started using it with Pi. Immediately, Pi was like, dude, why have you got this turned on? Ah, ZSH RC file.
Remove, source, let's go. And it's because like it can edit, it can edit whatever and there are no permissions there. And so for the last few weeks, I haven't been, I've been using Pi and so this doesn't work with Pi. And I need to think of another method. I think this is as YOLO mode as I've ever gone.
Wilhelm (57:43.778)
Damn.
Wilhelm (57:48.791)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (58:01.622)
Yeah, yeah, I really need to figure out a good way to integrate Pi into my workflow. I started using it a little bit, but then it's just a whole new thing to learn.
Matt Carey (58:09.2)
pie's great, man. Yeah, did you see all of the beef? Do you see more beef?
Wilhelm (58:17.186)
Wait, I thought it was fake beef. It's hard to keep track these days. Wait, who was the beef?
Matt Carey (58:19.312)
It was kind of fake. Mario got me so hard. Because you know we hung out with him a bunch at AI engineering. It was really fun. And then he absolutely pranked me. Because we posted, like my session API that I posted for, that I built for the Cloudflare Agents SDK had a tree-like structure, which is pretty similar to, it's based on Pi, right? There's a bunch of stuff that
Wilhelm (58:29.967)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (58:41.426)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (58:47.469)
Yep, yep, yep.
Matt Carey (58:48.176)
based on different people's work. I used context blocks from Leto, which are super, super cool. And I think even all the formatting of them was based on the designs from Noose, Hermes' agent. And there was a bunch of other stuff that was based from other people as well. Those were the big ones, the big ones that I lifted. And he started absolutely spouting off online, being like, looks familiar, mildly offended. And I was just like, no. And I got a little bit worried, so I actually wrote like.
Wilhelm (59:00.738)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (59:17.946)
acknowledgements in the bottom of my session API, where I got all of the ideas from, which I probably should have done anyway, but it just like made me laugh. and then he, then he, he called it off as a joke afterwards. I just find it. Yeah. I love this influx of Yeah. I love this influx of European sensibilities into what is otherwise quite an American dominated industry. Like they, they, him and Armin was such good crack at AI engineer. They were so fun.
Wilhelm (59:19.758)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (59:33.196)
He has a good sense of humor.
Wilhelm (59:45.538)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (59:47.248)
They're like, yeah. I know they just weren't trying to sell anything and that's quite fun. I like that. I like that. mean.
Wilhelm (59:49.942)
I can really see that, yeah.
Wilhelm (59:56.3)
Yeah, yeah, totally. Wait, can you walk me through all this crazy stuff that you shipped in the past week? Like, what is this sessions thing you just mentioned?
Matt Carey (01:00:02.35)
Yeah.
Okay, so we shipped Think, or at least like an initial version of Think, which is our own harness built on Cloudflare for Cloudflare primitives. So it's like our own take on how we should build a harness on Cloudflare. Basically, like there's a few things that came up to this, like Ramp built like a really cool agent on Cloudflare, and they came up with a bunch of issues.
And a few other people have built really cool agents on Cloudflare. durable objects are a great place to build agents. And we just didn't have a reference architecture. So we started building, and all of these customers were building stuff. And we had the agents SDK, which is mostly there. It's all the building blocks, but it's not assembled. It's like Lego.
And you have to look at them, you have to work out how the pieces were, you have to work out what color they are, and then you put them all together and you get your racing car. But we were like, why don't we just build the racing car? And then people can adapt it, they can change it to how they want it to be, but like, it is a very fast car from the start, rather than just being bits of Lego. And so that was the plan, and it's been going pretty well. Building a harness.
Wilhelm (01:00:59.617)
Right.
Wilhelm (01:01:06.316)
Yep, yep, yep.
Matt Carey (01:01:28.432)
to run locally in the CLI is really, really easy. Building it to run, building anything in a distributed system is really, really hard. And so it hasn't been the easiest thing in the world, but we're really, we're getting there. And all of the session management stuff is basically memory for this new agent harness.
Wilhelm (01:01:36.961)
Yeah, yeah,
Wilhelm (01:01:46.401)
Interesting.
Wilhelm (01:01:52.108)
OK, fascinating. So wait, I? So is this something, like say I wanted to deploy something on Cloudflare. Would I point my agent at this? Or it's more like if I wanted to build an agent that runs on Cloudflare.
Matt Carey (01:02:09.572)
Yeah, like.
If you want to build an agent, point your agent at think and be like, how do I use think to build an agent? it's part, it's like the battery is included thing for the agent's SDK. It's like the next big relief. Yeah. So you can imagine, you can imagine like the agent's SDK looking a bit like Hono. It's a router, it's got these pieces.
Wilhelm (01:02:26.062)
Oh, I see, I see,
Wilhelm (01:02:36.002)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:02:38.544)
It's got some validation library. It's got all of this stuff and you can build a really like fast high performing back end. Think is more like a Django rails type of affair. Like we're taking a lot of inspiration from rails actually because it's something that's like very batteries included. You've got your admin dash. You've got all of your bits. Everything's everything connects. There's a little bit more magic but
Wilhelm (01:02:51.31)
I I see, I see.
Wilhelm (01:02:56.663)
Nice.
Matt Carey (01:03:08.802)
it works and it should work out.
Wilhelm (01:03:10.286)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, OK, nice. So think that's the first week to kick off agent week. Or.
Matt Carey (01:03:16.888)
No, so the first thing to kill off agent we released was facets, which are, they're a Kenton number. They're durable objects, but you can spawn them.
Wilhelm (01:03:21.622)
Yeah
Wilhelm (01:03:32.366)
Can you not spawn durable objects?
Matt Carey (01:03:32.44)
So there's a durable object, have to deploy it, and then you can get new copies of it. they're globally addressable. Basically, the same code is running on all durable objects.
Wilhelm (01:03:38.323)
I see.
Wilhelm (01:03:41.815)
I
Wilhelm (01:03:50.028)
Yep, yep, yep.
Matt Carey (01:03:50.724)
But this is like what workers are to dynamic workers. This is what durable objects are to facets.
Wilhelm (01:03:58.35)
Got it. Yeah, okay. It makes sense in the abstract.
Matt Carey (01:04:01.296)
But what does this mean in like reality? It means you can do sub agents because you can have an agent running in a durable object that spawns some arbitrary running agent with arbitrary code in it as a sub agent. That code that it spawns has access to a SQLite, has its access to its own SQLite database, which is what makes durable objects cool. Has access to like out the box networking.
Wilhelm (01:04:13.208)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelm (01:04:18.156)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (01:04:30.724)
has access to it. Yeah, the facets are wild. And I think, like, it's taken what? Like, five, when was durable objects released? Like, five years ago? For people to, kind of understand them, it might take another three for people to understand facets. Facets are wild, and they enable all of these, like, AI apps on Cloudflare. Like, without facets, stuff, you start hitting the walls of what you can do.
Wilhelm (01:04:30.732)
You'll look crazy.
Wilhelm (01:04:46.585)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:04:57.456)
Because you generate code and then you have to run that code with dynamic workers if you run that code you only get Like it's a request response cycle. You don't get any persistence You have to your own persistence So facets enable all that stuff. So facets are really cool. Okay, so what are the big ones? Another one that I didn't so I didn't work on facets, but something that I've been a bit close to Another one that I didn't work on at all and haven't been close to but I think it's super cool is you can send emails now from cloud
Wilhelm (01:05:07.244)
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
Wilhelm (01:05:25.516)
my God, I saw that. Which obviously you could send them to yourself before or to like a white listed group of people, but now you can send them to everyone like a proper transactional email service like a Resend or Postmark or AWS SES. Yeah, that's cool. I looked at, yeah, actually I asked my client to do a little price comparison and feature comparison between different services. yeah, Cloudflare is looking pretty attractive.
Matt Carey (01:05:37.498)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:05:41.198)
All of those. Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:05:54.852)
Yeah, I think it's cool. like all Cloudflare stuff, it will start able to cope with big scale and it will just get faster and faster and faster over time.
Wilhelm (01:06:08.107)
Yeah, faster, cheaper.
Matt Carey (01:06:08.592)
start with the scale and it will get the speed and it'll get cheaper over time. But you will have the scale out of the box which I think is the really cool thing.
Wilhelm (01:06:19.19)
Yeah, and obviously makes a lot of sense if you're already on the Cloudflare stack, right? Like if you just want to send an email from inside your work or now you don't have to wire up an API. Let's talk about the ones, yeah, the ones you did.
Matt Carey (01:06:22.928)
Yeah.
And how many, how many people talk about, think the real fun one for me. Yeah. Okay. So the fun, so I did a bit of work on think the memory stuff. And then the other things that I did was we released code mode for MCP portals and a whole blog post about how we're using MCP internally. how enterprise MCP can be secured on cloudflare, how it can be like regulated and monitored and observed and all of that sort of stuff. And how we can, you can make it really efficient with code mode.
So that was a cool blog post. And then the best one, I think, well, the one that I'm most excited about of the whole week, not definitely not the best. There was so much cool stuff. There's like a whole feature flag service that got released today. we've got Cloudflow. Yeah, Cloudflow has got to the point where we're releasing whole startups in one blog post. It's kind of, it's kind of wild. It's actually insane.
Wilhelm (01:07:10.786)
damn.
Matt Carey (01:07:21.296)
Yeah, a whole feature flag and service got released today. There's loads of other cool stuff. Like we released a mesh network as well so that you don't have to like via tunnels. So you can like mesh to different stuff rather than doing like wide-angle communication with tunnels. You can have like a full mesh where your tunnel can communicate to other tunnels. as well, but I'm just burying the lead a little bit. It's artifacts, man. It's GIT or agents.
Wilhelm (01:07:33.197)
Mmm.
Wilhelm (01:07:39.808)
Yeah, yeah.
Go on.
Wilhelm (01:07:46.904)
artifacts. my god. Yeah, wait. I was so when I saw that I was like, wait, we were just talking about this the other day. This is crazy. And you were like, you were like this, because it's also a zig powered as well. I'm like, how's he managed to get a zig thing into production and Cloudflare? What? Yeah, wait, tell me about this. so what it's like, okay, wait, you have Cloudflare does GitHub now.
Matt Carey (01:07:56.91)
Yeah, I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you, sorry.
Matt Carey (01:08:11.044)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (01:08:16.608)
I'm so confused.
Matt Carey (01:08:17.136)
Yeah, so the problem we're trying to solve is agents need version control and the access pattern of this version control system is different to any version control we've had before. like GitHub for instance, it's a developer-focused platform where developers write code, developers commit code, developers view code, developers do that. It's constrained by the number of developers.
This new paradigm that we're falling into is agents are writing code and as developers, we're reviewing the output of that code. might be, some people are still like, people are still reviewing the code sometimes if it's like a production system. But in this world we were talking about earlier, which is like local first, basically, like everyone making their own little things without even knowing that they're making it because the agent's doing it in the background.
Wilhelm (01:09:09.005)
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Carey (01:09:15.246)
In that world, think people won't review the code. I just don't think they'll be code review. So what do you need? You need a platform where you can store and version little artifacts, and you can do it at real massive scale, like scale that we've never ever seen before. I think GitHub said that the whole of last year, they did a billion commits, and the on track...
Wilhelm (01:09:18.326)
Yeah, yeah,
Wilhelm (01:09:40.098)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Carey (01:09:42.01)
current trajectory if we flatline from now to do 14 billion this year.
Wilhelm (01:09:47.062)
Yeah, is, I mean, it tracks with my own usage for sure. But yeah, it's still an absolutely wild and explains their downtime and stuff.
Matt Carey (01:09:56.942)
Yeah, problems. like, they're doing the best they can. But we just thought, how can we reimagine code storage? And reimagining code storage like that, looks like, yeah, it looks a little bit different. we're building our own. We didn't ship GitHub, we shipped a Git API.
Wilhelm (01:10:04.087)
Yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (01:10:11.224)
Bro just chipped GitHub on a random Thursday.
Matt Carey (01:10:20.868)
Yeah,
Wilhelm (01:10:21.506)
Wait, but it's a Git server. It stores the code. Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:10:24.912)
Yeah, it's a server. you have access to the control plane, so you can create new repos. You can basically provision repos and stuff. It's GitHub for agents. And there will be a UI in the future. We will have something. will. Yeah, probably won't be as collaborative as GitHub is.
Wilhelm (01:10:33.006)
So it's GitHub for agents.
Wilhelm (01:10:42.178)
Why don't we all make our own UI?
Matt Carey (01:10:52.526)
I think it's going to be more around like metrics and more around like platform level. So this is how many repos you have. You might have millions or billions of repos because you might have a repo for every chat. You might have a repo for every, for every agent. You might have a repo for like every, virtual employee might have a repo, you know, like all of this stuff, like it maps quite well to repos.
Wilhelm (01:11:17.1)
Yeah, yeah,
Matt Carey (01:11:21.808)
Or at least it maps quite well to folders of important markdown files.
Wilhelm (01:11:21.847)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelm (01:11:27.384)
This reminds me of something else I was gonna mention. I mean, it makes so much sense and it's kind of wild. mean, it's just, yeah, all the things you just mentioned, it's kind of insane how, it feels like, I mean, this whole past 10 minutes has been a massive Cloudflare ad, but it feels like well-deserved and also just, feels like the world has no idea how far ahead Cloudflare is, which obviously is why I put so much money in Cloudflare stock. Anyway.
Random thing I was going to mention is, I feel like I've actually, I feel like Cloud Code got a real Git work tree upgrade like a few weeks ago. And I actually really enjoy using it now. Like I never enjoyed managing work trees myself, like manually, but having the agents manage them.
actually works really well. assuming that your repo is set up in such a way, like I think it gets messy when you want to have like a loop where you need to spin up a server and or even accept inbound connections, which SimplePool needs to do. But if you really have a good local setup, then work trees that are managed by agents is quite nice, which is just a random thing I wanted to mention.
Okay, I have to run in like two minutes. I need to run through a couple of quick things with you. First of all, a...
friend and listener of the pod, Patrick, total legend, has so much taste and is like a machine of an engineer as well, rare combo. He asked me about stateless MCP, which we talked about last time briefly, and he asked, isn't stateless MCP basically just CLI? Like why use stateless MCP instead of CLI? And he wanted me to ask you that.
Matt Carey (01:13:10.692)
Yeah, because a CLI is not a protocol. So every person who ships a new CLI is going to ship it differently. MCB standardizes the auth for services that want agents to use them. It standardizes the auth. It standardizes the method of interaction via tools. And all of this stuff sounds silly, but...
Wilhelm (01:13:16.558)
Mm.
Matt Carey (01:13:40.772)
Like try and build an agent that interacts with all of this stuff without MCP and they'll get real tough. So the statelessness is just about how the transport works under the hood. Most people won't even notice the difference. Ideally you should never.
Wilhelm (01:13:55.214)
types as well, right? Like you get kind of types and schemas with MCP that might be harder with CLI.
Matt Carey (01:14:02.382)
Yeah, it's MCP. far as I'm, yeah, as far as I am going to think about in the future is MCP is like an opinionated version of open API spec plus a method of accessing that spec.
Wilhelm (01:14:17.142)
Right. Interesting. Yep.
Matt Carey (01:14:18.296)
Like, that's all it is. It's a way of accessing capabilities from an external service and then authenticating with that external service. Like, it's just a spec for that. And that was necessary. And the fact it's stateless or stateful has actually nothing to do with it. It's an implementation detail of the spec.
Wilhelm (01:14:41.506)
Makes sense.
Damn, we really don't have enough time. I saw a thing somewhere. Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:14:48.398)
Actually, weirdly, CLIs are way more stateful because CLIs normally store JSON files on your machine.
Wilhelm (01:14:58.69)
You heard it here first. Completely different thing. I saw a thing somewhere that a lot of people make like long form content, right? Like streaming podcasts. This is long form content. We make a podcast. But then when they cut it up into short form clips, it gets like hundreds of times more views. And like, those are the things that, so I think we need to be making rage bait short form clips and post them.
Matt Carey (01:15:18.127)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (01:15:29.218)
wherever. Of course, that's a bit sad. So we should, I think, end them with stop watching short form clips and listen to the whole podcast. What do think?
Matt Carey (01:15:41.07)
Yes.
Wilhelm (01:15:42.83)
Okay, quick thoughts from you on Mythos and Opus 4.7.
Wilhelm (01:15:53.122)
because we haven't really talked about either much.
Matt Carey (01:15:53.456)
think it's cool that there's more pre-training going on. And there are new base models. So as far as I understand, with 4.7, they changed the tokenizer. And that is a thing that, least traditionally, can only be done with a new base model.
Wilhelm (01:16:05.122)
Hmm.
Matt Carey (01:16:23.044)
because it's kind of intrinsic to the model. So if Mythos, sorry, if 4.7 is a completely new base model, first of all, it's weird naming, but it would make me think that it's probably the smaller version of Mythos.
Wilhelm (01:16:44.91)
Interesting.
Matt Carey (01:16:46.256)
Like it's like the one that didn't cook fully. But I don't know, it's all like conjecture because we don't know.
Wilhelm (01:16:55.712)
It's true, yeah, it's hard to tell when stuff. mean, Mythos, sorry, Opus 117 has been getting very mixed reviews at the moment from everyone using it, but maybe it's like really, really jagged, or maybe it requires like more steering. Maybe it can do really cool stuff, but like we haven't figured out how yet.
Matt Carey (01:17:10.254)
Yeah, definitely, definitely. Like Anthropic are known for having massive prompts. and I guess, I guess they've just optimized more on that, but like the more detailed you can be with your specs, the more detailed the model can be, the more it can like just carry on going. yeah, like if they can get longer trajectories because they have longer specs, then I think that's, that's positive all around. I think the benchmarks at this point are kind of broken. Like we've always.
Wilhelm (01:17:38.199)
Yeah.
Matt Carey (01:17:38.928)
in this, like at the moment it's like really clapped. Like when you see, you know, what was it like the last, like humanities last exam and like ArcGi two or three or whatever we're on now, like I'd say they're some of the best benchmarks and they're completely annihilated. Not completely, but like more than, more than they should be, you know, for where we are right now.
Wilhelm (01:17:43.18)
Hahaha.
Wilhelm (01:18:00.898)
Yeah.
Wilhelm (01:18:06.572)
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot more to talk about, but I think we've got to wrap it. Big week, man. Big couple of weeks.
Matt Carey (01:18:14.5)
Yeah, boss, it was fun. Absolutely huge week. Yeah, I really would like, I've never really done plugs on this, but if you are still listening, just go and have a look at the CloudFlare blog. Like it's just kind of insane the amount of stuff that people have shipped this week. Yeah, there is not that many people in CloudFlare for how much was shipped this week. If you look at the names of the authors and see how many people are on multiple projects, it's kind of wild.
Wilhelm (01:18:19.81)
Let's.
Wilhelm (01:18:38.146)
Yeah, nice work Cloudflare team.
Wilhelm (01:18:44.918)
And after my next meeting, I'll figure out if I can get Opus 4.7 to cut all this into the most rage baity clips that we can pepper onto TikTok. Might as well.
Matt Carey (01:18:58.318)
whatever, as long as I never have to visit any of the platforms that it goes on.
Wilhelm (01:19:03.436)
it'll go on Twitter as well.
Matt Carey (01:19:05.104)
wonderful. Right. Bye bye.
Wilhelm (01:19:07.342)
All right, peace, see ya.
