Transcript
Elaine
Welcome, everybody. Today I am excited to introduce you to my friend and colleague, Jake Brown. Now, has made it his mission to help people survive and thrive even under some of the biggest life challenges such as bad bosses and ADHD. Jake is the author of Leadership, and that yes. That�s leader with s h I t on the end
Jake Brown
of
Elaine
it. It�s tales and tools to survive a bad boss and have fun at work. And I found this book to be super funny. It�s practical, and it�s very, very real. He�s been known to lead conference sessions using Legos and doodles, and it all makes me think that Jake�s real superpower is making work fun again.
His insights on ADHD workplace dynamics and how to navigate a toxic environment are truly life changing. And whether you�re managing your own energy or trying to understand the people you lead, this will be a conversation that will be worth every minute. So welcome, Jake.
Jake Brown
Thanks, Elaine.
Elaine
So let�s start by diving into, let�s say, dinosaurs and robots. Now, I was in a session you led at Grow, and it was the conference last February. And I think that you do a better job of showing up and making things fun than anybody else I know. And I want to know why is that? How do you do that?
Jake Brown
Honestly, I�m not exactly sure. It is I heard somebody years ago, I don�t even remember who it was, that said, your gift to the world is what people used to tell you was too much. And it was one those things I was like, as a kid, I was told, sit in the back of the room, draw, stop talking to other people. Like, what I was doing, it was like, now as I�ve studied and learned about my neurodivergence and, you know, the people around me, I�ve realized that where there�s dopamine, like, that is incredibly powerful. So it�s this idea that�s like, that is what I thrive on, and my biggest dopamine drive is watching other people smile and laugh.
So it�s this idea of, like, I needed people to smile so that I could survive work, so I could survive school, so I could do all these things. And just finding the ways that it�s like, if it�s not fun, I can�t engage it. Like, I struggle to force myself to work. And then as I got into a manager role and, like, leading other people, it�s just like it�s just this natural thing that it�s like, there�s a fun way to do everything. Like, I�ve even found a way that, you know, when I did my own taxes, like, it was fun.
Like, there was it was like, it�s this weird, like, mega sudoku puzzle thing, you know, where it�s like, I gotta figure this out. It�s this, like, national treasure thing that I�m figuring out.
Elaine
Well, I love that you�re really looking at the science behind it. I mean, you�re not just trying all these things willy nilly. You you have dug into the science behind it. So if you don�t mind, kind of describe what you did at the GROW conference, and then I�ll I�ll tell you what I took away from that too.
Jake Brown
Yeah. So the idea is when you go to a conference, a lot of times you�re thinking about everything. Your mind�s overwhelmed. Even, like, on the last day of the conference, you�re carrying everything. You you even start to feel like the real world�s starting to connect, and it�s hard to be present on that last day.
And one of my favorite things to do is just have this weird session. It only takes a few minutes, and I teach people to doodle. But the idea is I�m showing them how I�m taking them through the lens of neurodivergence, ADHD, autism. Like, we�re stepping into that and going, what if the psychology you break that down and you�re not judged anymore. Whatever output you have is judged.
And then the other one is neurology. Everything goes in or out of your brain, input or output. And I just teach people to go to that place where you make something that will never be judged. And the way they do is doodling. I learned it from my grandpa, and it�s changed the way I approach a lot of things.
I�ve taught it to my kids. I�ve done it at I mean, you know, now tens of thousands of people I�ve done this thing for. And it�s just this a couple minutes, I teach people how to doodle like they were a kid again, and it is amazing. I�ve done it up to 400 people in the room, and the room gets silent. I don�t think they�re, like, grown up professional, like, c suite people are in this room, and they�re doodling, it gets quiet, and they do it.
We throw it away so they can�t judge it. And what happens is it just your brain goes to a safe space where all of the distractions, all things clinging to you are just gone. They just let go. And it is almost eerie how present you are and everybody is in the room. And then, you know, eventually, people smile.
They reengage with the person right there in front of the task that�s in front of them, but they forget about their laundry. They forget about the, you know, their travel. They forget about TSA. They forget about, you know, their groceries or if their kid�s gonna get it to lacrosse practice on time. Like, there�s just a moment that everybody�s there.
Elaine
Yeah. And I can tell you that�s exactly what was happening on my side as a conference attendee because I�m sitting in this chair. So you walk in, you know, everybody�s running around, talking to each other, grabbing coffee, thinking that they have to check out later that morning. What are their travel plans? Who are they riding with to the airport?
So there�s all of this chaos in their heads like you�re talking about. And for this first speaker of the morning, it�s really important that everybody focus and listen. Kind of like you were describing, it�s the last day of the conference and you�re thinking, How in the heck are you going to get all these people to settle down and pay attention? But that was exactly what you did. We drew a robot, which as we established, I didn�t really care about So the robot so I didn�t mind drawing the robot, but it�s also and I�ve seen people ask you this question a lot, and they�re going, I can�t draw.
I can�t do all. I can�t draw. I can�t do what you do. But you walked us through it kind of step by step, and just the focus on making the shapes on the page. Suddenly, like you said, everything got quiet and people started to do it and there was no judgment and people were ready for Katherine Brown to take the stage that morning.
So I just found that exceptionally and very surprisingly powerful for getting this room full of people to pay attention.
Jake Brown
Thank you so much for that encouragement. It it is wild, and people are always skeptical. And what�s funny is, like, they they�re like, okay. Whatever. But when they do it, I mean, it�s like the response I get afterward is always amazing.
Like, I spend more time talking to people about what just happened afterward than I do doodling. Like, I would say if we do a ten minute doodle, I might talk to people for thirty, forty minutes afterwards about their ten minute doodle. And I�m like, like, just go doodle again. Like, get to work. Like, this is
Elaine
I love it. And you use your doodle as kind of a tool in your coaching as well with ADHD clients. Correct?
Jake Brown
Yes.
Elaine
Because you said that it kind of makes a space either between your calls or between tasks where you can leave one task behind, do, you know, do some doodling, settle down, and then be ready for the next task.
Jake Brown
Right. Yeah. With ADHD, two of the things that really affect us are, you know, inattentive, like, can can we choose to focus on something? That�s very difficult. But once we get focused on something, hyperfocus is amazing, Like, getting into that and knocking stuff out.
It�s kinda like neurotypical people think of the flow state. People will talk about the flow state, but then imagine that your brain only has one track and you�re not just, like, a train, but you�re I mean, you�re like, you know, formula one race car driving on the same like, that is what happens is all that overlaps for ADHD. And what I found is if I can get into hyper focus, I can actually get ten hours of work done in about three hours. So getting into that space is amazing and I found that doodling the practice of doodling, I can trigger hyperfocus for myself. And at the same time, task switching.
I�ve heard it, you know, with there�s lots of statistics out there, but for neurotypical, they�ll say, if you task switch, it could take twenty minutes. Like, if you get interrupted, it can take twenty minutes to get back into that task. Well, I saw I was watching a webinar of a psychiatrist in England. He said, if you have ADHD and you get interrupted, it may take two weeks to get back into that task. And I was like first of all, I felt validated.
I�m like, yes. That�s exactly how it is. Like, brain cannot find out where I was. I have to back up to the beginning and work all the way back But with doodling, if you�re task switching or if you get interrupted or whatever, what happens is the doodling lets all that junk let go of you. And then the first thing that our mind sees, we are present with that task only.
And it�s not that there are four things and some of them are, you know, newer or shiny object. Like, our brain will attach to the thing that�s, like, the the best option in front of us. Well, by doodling, we can set it up to where there�s only one thing in front of us. And your brain will see that that that�s novel, that that�s new, that that not necessarily important, but it�s exciting. It�s the fun thing.
It�s the next new thing in front of you. Even if it�s an old thing, it�s just newer than the doodle.
Elaine
Yeah. Okay. And you were talking about people being skeptical. Yeah. And so you�ve run into this either with leaders, managers, maybe even HR people who you�re talking about the challenges, the unique challenges of ADHD and neurotypical versus neurodivergent and how there are some different techniques they can try and use.
It seems like you do hit some skepticism periodically because they just don�t get how this thing that you�re recommending would work. Can you think of an instance, any stories you can share about when you suggested something that people found that they were super skeptical about?
Jake Brown
A lot. A lot of Yeah. A lot of stuff. I mean, because I am neurodivergent, so my brain processes. I see things from a different perspective.
So then when I�m talking to other people, specifically that have ADHD, like, I can make sense to them really well. But if there�s a neurotypical person who�s the decision maker, for instance, an HR director or somebody like that or the CEO, like, they I have to remember, they can�t understand just like I I have trouble understanding their way or their employees are having trouble following their vision because they don�t understand it. Well, the CEO or the HR director, they think their way. Like, their brain is wired and they process information, and I have to approach it differently. And there are several things.
I mean, the doodling is one. Like you mentioned, the Lego workshops. Like, nobody thinks that we�re gonna play with Legos for an hour, and at the end of it, our team�s gonna be completely unified about the vision and where we�re headed over the next five years. Like, that�s not a thing that seems like it should work, but it always has. That�s one man, all kinds of stuff.
Just I�m trying to think of, like, specific examples. One of my favorite things right now is, like, having companies when they�re having trouble with, say, community or as they�ve gone remote or they�re working in different places is these coworking calls. In neurodivergence, like, in our world, it�s called body doubling, and it�s what it actually is is most people like accountability. But for ADHD, accountability is actually a judgment, and it�s predetermined failure. That�s how our mind processes it.
But if we are working and somebody�s just walking beside us, I call it nudging, it�s this idea that we get a lot of stuff done. And then especially, like, if I go to a coffee shop even and I�m working on something and then I get distracted and I look up and I see somebody else that�s reading a book or, like, they�re working, I just drift back into work mode. Like, I just immediately it�s kinda like the bumpers at the bowling alley. I just bump straight back into work. Well, that�s what these calls do for a lot of people.
And it�s like some people I have one client. They have, I mean, some of them have, like, nine. Some of them have two people. One of them has about 35 people. And every Friday morning, they do this coworking call.
It�s two hours long right before lunch, and then they all get on. They sit in quiet. They do their work. They have their cameras on on Zoom, you know, they pipe music in like they�re all sitting in the same coffee shop or they�re in the same room working. And it just they�ve told me, they�re like, we get so much work done.
They�re like, our team gets, like, three days worth of work done in that two hours just collectively, and they�re not talking to each other. They�re just all head down moving their stuff forward. And it�s worked so well now that through the summer, they have that call. It ends at it actually ends at 11AM. And then at that point, they�ll stay on and eat lunch together, but they�re done.
Like, at 11AM, they�re done for the week because all of their work is done. They get the time off, but they said a lot of times they�ll just sit there and eat their lunch and hang out together, kinda have like a a Zoom, you know,
Elaine
break room. Room.
Jake Brown
Yeah. Zoom lunch room. And one of the guys was like, and it�s amazing because you can�t smell their fish. Like, you can�t smell what the other person warmed up. So they do that.
And the the lady that was in charge, so it�s a husband and wife that own this company, and the lady is in charge of the HR and, you know, the operations, stuff like that, and she was very, very skeptical. But they got to the point where their turnover and they were having a lot of trouble specifically with they have they draw in you know, their industry draws in more excited, you know, people. They had a high, group of ADHD. And they�re like, how do we just keep people engaged? How do we do this?
How do we not have a revolving door? And it�s like, well, you�ve got a culture problem because you�ve built something that they don�t wanna be a part of. Well, how do we get them together? Well, these Zoom calls, because they�re around you know, they�re all over the country. And by having these calls, like I said, it was skeptical.
And I was like, what are you gonna lose? Like, you you do a weird call. If it doesn�t work, you blame me. Like, I�m the weird outsider that tried this thing, and then you tell the team, yeah. Sorry, guys.
That guy was weird. And it worked. And, like, I�ve been working with them for, you know that company I�ve been working with for, you know, over a year. So when I threw that one in there, they were a little bit more responsive, but, you know, or more receiving, but not I mean, it was definitely like you know, they were, like, riding the gas and the brakes at the same time. They�re like, I don�t know about this, Jake.
Elaine
Well, I want to talk about your book for a second. All right. That�s something that I think a lot of people that do have ADHD are hesitant to even tackle a task like that. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. By the way, I wanted to tell everybody, when I was trying to search for the book on Amazon and I was typing in leadership, the Amazon search bar would not let me keep putting it in there.
So I just want everybody to know we�ll have links in the show notes. It kept trying to say LeaderShift Yes. With an Feet, which is like, that�s not even
Jake Brown
John Maxwell�s team pays a lot of money in ads and stuff, and I just I can�t find it. Like, seriously, they have they�re running ads to my book title to go to their book. So they�re, like, they�re paying to have it. Bored. Yeah.
Marketing money. That�s aggravating. Yeah.
Elaine
But, you know I�ll be aggravated on your behalf.
Jake Brown
At the same time, though, I�m like, Man, I showed up on John Maxwell�s radar. Like, how cool is that?
Elaine
Well, I ended up putting the quotes on either side of it. So I was like, quote, leadership, and, you know, close quote, by Jake Brown.
Jake Brown
Yeah. So if you put my name, it shows up.
Elaine
And then it came up. But we�ll have the link in the show notes so you don�t have to search and get directed to the wrong place. All right. Said that. Now, talk to me about your book.
You took a really bad situation, made it better, and then wrote about it. How did you get started on the book? How did you keep going? Because so many people have it in their head that they want to write a book, but they don�t follow through and get her done. So how did you make it happen?
Jake Brown
Alright. So to start with, how did I write the book? It was a perfect time. I was having a bunch of conversations with people, and it seemed like every conversation, people were talking about how much they hated work, how much they hated their boss. And I realized I was telling the same stories.
Like, I was talking to people, was telling stories, I was engaging with them, you know, I was listening to them. The same issues were coming up over and over again and I just thought, hey. I should record the like, I should I should document these stories that I keep telling over and over again. And that was the idea of the book. It was kinda like this idea that it was a leadership book, but not from the almost, you know, the like, I didn�t think of it at the time, but, like, wicked.
It�s like, what if it was told from the other person�s perspective? And that�s what I wanted to do is, like, let me tell about a bad leader from the person watching or stuck in the middle middle management leadership. Yeah. You know? So that�s that�s the idea of the book.
And it was this idea where it�s like, I�m gonna do it, but I�m not gonna do it the normal way because that�s not my thing. That�s not who you are. Yeah. That that would be totally off brand to follow rules. So I just started thinking about it.
I was telling the stories. I started documenting some of them. And then at the same time, there was this really amazing lady who was following my emails and replied one day. It�s still flagged in mine, and it said, never stop writing. That was you, Elaine.
It was just just this complete encouragement that comes up all the time where it was like so ADHD, dyslexic, that was my background. Don�t eat like, reading in public is one of my biggest fears. But got into reading my emails. People were following them, liking them, replying to them. I still if I send an email, I get at this point, I send out just a marketing just a regular email, and I get 25, 30 people will hit reply and just respond to me.
And I�m like, I�m not a great writer, but I think just it�s engaging. Like, it�s working the way my stories were going. Yeah. And then people were kinda like, oh, is this gonna be a book? Like, what�s gonna happen?
And I was like, I don�t know. I decided I was gonna make it a book. And every time I got into it, the first things I actually did was I recorded myself telling the stories. Mhmm. And then I listened to them and thought, okay.
Yeah. This is how the story sounds. Like, this is what we�re liking about the story. So then I use that as raw material to then go and write. Some of them I transcribed so they could look at it and move it, but some of them it was just, you know, I listened to the story, then I like, okay.
I�m gonna write this how I tell the story, and then I�m gonna go back and edit it. So there�s actually kinda two voices. My wife calls it Jake and Head Jake. And it�s this idea that it�s like, you get to hear me living through this, like, through each story, but you also get to hear my internal, like, commentary. You know, like, the old guys on the Muppets that are like, Yeah.
You know, like, there�s that version of me in there too, like, talking like, what are you doing? Like, just kind of the inside thought. So that�s kinda as I started writing the book. And what I did is I documented the stories, and then I went through and I said, but what do I actually want them to know? Like, who is it?
I didn�t know exactly who it was for at the time. I just know I was getting the stories out. And I thought, okay. Well, who is it for? And for their conversations with, you know, you, several other people, like, that were writing books and what they did.
And I had people that I look up to read parts of it and stuff and get back to me, and they�re like, this is so weird. And then one person I sent, you know, an early manuscript to texted me at, like, 4AM and said I I sent it to him, like, after dinner. And they texted me at, like, 4AM. And they�re like, I just finished your book. Like, I stayed up to and I was just like, this hasn�t even been proofread and edited yet.
Like, oh my goodness. So it was and then another person jokingly one of the comments, a review that somebody posted, they said it�s a two poop book. And I was like, is that good? And what they were saying is, like, like, they read it in the bathroom and it moves quickly. You know, it�s kinda like, oh, it only takes two sittings to read the book.
And I was like, that is the strangest rating I have ever heard in my life. But they liked it. So going through the whole experience of launching the book, I just did it goofy, tongue in cheek, you know. Like, my my cover reveal was sitting on top of a urinal, like, on the pipes of a urinal. Was just, like, everything.
I wanted it to be junior high poop jokes. Like, I just I wanted to have that humor as I move forward. And like you said, when I slowed down, when it got hard, there because were definitely places where it got hard and I wanted to quit Yeah. Part of what I did is I let a group of people know that I was doing it, and they would check on it. And it was like, okay.
I�m gonna let them down if I don�t do this. And one of the biggest urges was somebody close to me, like like, extended married family, expressed very heavy doubt out loud in a like, with a small group of people that they thought I would actually be able to complete this. And as my wife says, the number one way to make me do something is to tell me I can�t. Yeah. And, you know, so that was there was a motor in me from that.
And then there were people around me that were checking on it. And then there were the people that were just constantly encouraging me. And then there were people that I could just text. And it was like, even if I�m down, I�m like, man, I�m just having a rough day. Like, I�m not getting words out or whatever.
And there were people that just made it a safe place to struggle with words, to struggle with all of it. And when I had doubt, you know, there were people that were kinda like there was one day that I was gonna give up on the book. Like, I had gotten to the point where I was like, this is hard. I�m staying up at night. I don�t I say I was giving up on the book.
It only took me a couple months to write it and get it done when I finally started because I already had the stories collected and I think organizing Yeah. And stuff like that. But as I was like, it was just hard, and I was like, nobody cares about this. Like, this is weird. It�s, you know, it�s just gonna be a flash in the pan.
No you know, it�s too weird. And I was gonna give up on it. And I talked to I just ended up talking to a lady, and she had heard about my book. So we we like, just through networking new people, we hopped on a Zoom call, talked about it. And she was like, I need this for my son because he�s been trapped in a really bad job, and he just needs I just need him to have hope.
And that�s like, she said that. I was like, okay. For the rest of the duration of it, it was kinda like I was writing like, she even told me his name. And I wrote on a Post it note, it was like, this book has to be done for him. Because he needs it.
Right.
Elaine
Yeah.
Jake Brown
Like so it�s like, I�m gonna serve him. Like, this needs to be there. And I realized, like, I needed this book, you know, five years ago. Whatever. Like, I needed this.
Yeah. He needs it. Like so that was it was kind of that mix of how do you keep going. The other thing was breaking it down into really little achievable bits. Like, I call them laps.
I didn�t know anything better. And I was like, writing a book is incredibly hard. And if I knew everything that it was going to be, there�s no way I would have started But I got into it and, like I said, like, having conversations with you and several other people just kept me moving and kinda kinda kept that stuff clear in front of me. It was kinda like, I did some things differently. Like, the first thing for the book, the working title was leadership.
That is still the title. Because Yeah. When you read the intro, it�s a typo that changed the way that I manage. It changed my view of work, and then it changed the way I talk to people, and then it it became the book. So it�s like the typo that changed my life.
Like, I actually went out and started my own business because of this typo eventually. So I was like, that has to be the title. Think everybody you you say the title of the book, and everybody�s like, oh, let me tell you about my boss. Like, everybody has a boss somewhere. And that�s like, guys, it was these stories, and nobody wanted a lecture.
So it�s the stories with, like, a nugget. Like, by the way, here�s this and here�s the tool to move forward. Yeah. So I�m kinda rambling now. But No.
I a hard process. But Yeah. Breaking it to those small things, it became sprints. And it was like, I just started listing the stories, and I went back and said, how do they fit? Which ones include which ones move the person from day one and realizing this is a bad situation, bad boss, all the way to day last?
Like, when they have hope, when they�re healthy. And I already had the framework I had taught people along the way. So then it was like, okay. How do I now put that into the book? How do I give people that tool where they can use it and kind of assess and know how to move forward?
Because originally, that tool wasn�t in there. Mhmm. I was gonna make it something outside that people could get. And one of my mentors, actually a pastor, was looking at it. And two things, I said, okay.
Now I gotta find a title. And he because I was, you know, worried about the title or whatever. And he told me he was like, here�s the thing. He goes, are you trying to get on the shelves at a church bookstore or help people that are stuck in darkness? So a pastor told me to keep the title, and he also told me that he told me put that tool.
Like, let�s just stick it on the back. I�m like, but that sounds weird to have, like, a memoir and tool combo thing. And he was like, since when do you care? Like, is this gonna help people? And I was like, alright.
So that�s kinda how the book came together. It was talking to a lot of other people, hearing what they were saying, sharing the stories, and just going, like, doing a little bit of hard work. And I did not necessarily think long term as the project ended. Like, I I said, this is what I want the project to be. How can I launch it at this time?
But then I I I got very shortsighted on the lapse. And then at one point, I remember looking at it and going, like, I�m almost done. And then I just, like, stayed up that night and, like, just crushed what was left because I was like, like, why would I why would I take another week on this? Like, I can be done when I wake up tomorrow.
Elaine
So That�s awesome. Well, I want to recap a couple of the things you said because they�re so important. So number one, you�re a storyteller, and that�s why I told you you should never stop writing. Even if the writing part is hard, you were living through things and sharing stories that we could all relate to. Just like you said, every single person you say that to can go, Oh, I had a boss.
Let me tell you. I mean, it�s so relatable. We�re going to come back to your tool, the framework here in just a second. The other things I want to point out about what you said is that everybody�s process is a little different, but there�s so much good about your process because you are more naturally verbal. Like my brain is wired to my fingers.
I type. I find it very difficult to speak a story first. I write first. So my way isn�t the way for everybody. So everybody needs to kind of find their own structure for their writing process, That�s one of the things that I included when I put together the course on writing a book.
So I have a course on writing the book, but the other thing I found was, just like you found this group of people to support you and stay with it, is that people who were joining the course weren�t necessarily finishing because they didn�t have this ongoing support. I added office hours to my course so that people can still come in and have somebody to bounce things off of. And accountability. Yeah. That doesn�t mean failure, just accountability to to keep going.
The
Jake Brown
the difference between I would say the accountability is, is it somebody that�s judging you or somebody that�s hoping for you? And that�s the biggest difference is, like, with you, there are a lot of people that hope for me, but they�re not judging the, you know, gap and gain. Like, they�re not they�re hoping. They�re hoping ahead of me. They�re kinda in that future and hoping as opposed to judging me in the past.
In most accountability, it feels like it�s the past. But when you have people that are excited and it�s kinda like, oh, man. I read this chapter. Like, when does that resolve? Or I I saw this.
Like, you told this other story. Like, is this story gonna be in there? Like, when people were curious and leaning in and they were kinda hoping and it�s kinda like it wasn�t so much that I was letting them down as I was trying to keep pace with their excitement of what I was doing.
Elaine
Yeah. That�s gold. So tell me, so let�s go back to your framework and the guy who said it was the to poop read. That was a good lead in to what is called the wipe framework. So you do have a tool and you�re doing coaching, so how are you guiding people through this process?
It occurred to me, I�m going to add this, it occurred to me that even though a lot of people are reading this book and thinking, What do I have to do to deal with this situation? Do I stay? Do I go? How do I manage this? So they�re thinking that, but you and I know so many people who are entrepreneurs and they�re out there working on their own, and they may have built something that they no longer like or align with, and it�s time to make a change or refine what they do, but they stay with what they know, and so they�ve become their own boss that�s kind of perhaps setting the wrong expectations and leading them in the wrong direction.
So I would argue that this framework can be used for individuals who are their own boss, solopreneurs, or if you�re working for a giant corporation.
Jake Brown
I I definitely did this. I launched my own company, and at the end of the first quarter, I went through the framework for myself, and I realized I was by far the worst, most abusive boss I had ever had. I was like, if anybody treated me the way that I was treating me, they would go to jail. Like, it was so bad. But I mean, that�s how we do when we launch out because it is you know, it�s it�s our work, it�s our family�s livelihood, it is our hobby, it is it is our hope, it is our passion.
Like, everything�s built into that one. And then you kind of step back and go, okay. Made it through that. Now I need to adjust before this becomes horrible. Well,
Elaine
so so tell me you�ll have to tell us the whole framework, but just give us an idea. What advice are you giving people when they find themselves in one of these situations?
Jake Brown
Yeah. Basically, you answer two questions and you�re in one of four quads. It�s like, what this is the role that you�re playing. And the acronym of those four is white. There�s the winner, the intern, the prisoner, and the expert.
And this can change very quickly. Like, you can be if you get a promotion, if somebody else on staff changes, if projects, you know, you can slide into one of the other squares and you kinda like look at and go, okay. Where am I right now? And after you know where you are, then you have to choose. Basically, are you gonna stay there?
Are you just gonna sit still and hope it gets better? Or are you going to do the work? Because one of the things I found through the process was I was expecting a boss to make me better and mentor me. That was not the boss�s expectation of our relationship. And I realized that it was my job to actually grow me.
Like, I had to be responsible for that. Nobody else was going to. So then it�s like, okay. If I need to grow myself, but then the team and the people I was leading, well, how do I teach them to do that and make space for them to grow? Well, I had to get to the winner square to realize that for other people.
You know? And one of the main things I say about the winner is, your job, if you�re in the winner square like, first of all, I don�t know why you�re reading my book. But if you�re there, your job is to teach other people to wipe themselves. Because, you know, like, it�s sim I�m a parent. I have four kids.
And a big part of parenting, like, there�s this big milestone when your kids can go to the bathroom and wipe themselves. Like, when they can take care of their whole bathroom experience on their own, like, that�s a major milestone in development. And I realized when you�re managing people, when they own their own self awareness and growth, like, that is a huge milestone for future leaders and for middle manager and for any employee. Now you wanna be there and encourage them. So the idea there is it goes, okay.
Well, say you are I don�t know. So you take the assessment and you realize that you�re the expert. That actually means that you are able, capable, and allowed. You�re great at your job, but you�re not aligned with the owner, the company, the team, the mission. Like so your options are go find somewhere else that you�re aligned or sit still and hope the company shifts into, you know, to become aligned with you, which honestly is just bad advice.
And then the third option is to actually change your alignment. Find something. Find a way to reengage to become aligned. And if you do that, then you can slide into that winner square. But it�s, you know, pretty simple things where I give advice in the book where it�s like, depending on where you are, figure out the position you�re in, which part is or isn�t.
Are you aligned and able? Like, what is missing? And then you pick one. Like, okay. This is where it is.
I need to be intentional about working on alignment with the team, or I need to be intentional about gaining skills. Like, there are a lot of times where I�ll say the hardest one to overcome is there�s, like, are you able to do your job? There�s two parts of that. Do you have the skills? Are you capable of doing your and are you allowed?
Like, that�s the one. Like, does your boss actually allow you to do your job? Does the team like, are do you have ownership? Can you like, are you allowed to do it? And I found that I was there several times, but when I got stuck in that point, I actually found ways to work on that because it�s a it�s trust.
And a lot of times, the boss doesn�t actually trust themselves to delegate. It has nothing to do with us. But it feels like it�s our fault, it�s our problem, it�s crushing because we�re babysat, micromanaging, all this kind of stuff. But the fact is most bosses are bad at delegating because they know that they�re going to fail you, so they stay involved too long because they don�t know what to do. Well, you can build trust there because the way I define trust is somebody like, you know that somebody does what they say they�ll do.
So you have to go, okay. So do so say you�re gonna do something, then do it, then make sure the boss knows. It seems kinda counterintuitive, but reminding the boss because the boss a lot of people are always looking for fires. Teammates, they�re putting out the fires of squeaky wheels. Sometimes we have to stop them and be like, hey.
Remember those last seven projects that went great? Like, this is what I did. I�m doing this all the time. Can I just do it without, like instead of talking every day, can I maybe do this and then check-in at the end of, you know, at the end of the week? Like, actually teaching the boss to trust you means that you are more allowed.
And that I I learned that over years of pain. And then one day, it just dawned on me, you know, watching my kids, interacting with my kids, and realizing that I have to allow them to trip and fail. I have to make space for that. Well, then how do you get that? Well, you ask for it.
You you have to be intentional about your own growth. So that�s kind of some quick examples of how it works.
Elaine
Yeah. That�s great. So what books are you reading right now?
Jake Brown
Oh, so I actually just started two books. They�re very, very different. So one of them is Escape from Tarikiak, a guy named Ben that book. Yeah. So Yes.
A friend, wrote this and launched it. He actually sat down with his kids, and they just, like, brainstormed and came up with all these crazy ideas telling stories back and forth. And then they spent years, like, massaging it into, this book. So I just, been diving into that, and it is I would say, it�s kind of the idea of, like, family adventure, kid led family adventure stuff. It is ridiculously fun, the crazy things.
Like, there�s, like, this there�s this walrus pirate guy that�s, like, addicted to coffee. Like, it it�s it�s crazy. So it is good stuff. And then the other one I just started is called they�ll fight over it when you�re dead by Dave Munson. So it is if you�ve heard of Saddleback Leather, like the the bags, the satchels, and stuff.
So I had I�ve had one of their satchels for years, but it is his story about so this here�s the I heard that he was doing like, my wife saw it, I was like, yes. I want that book. Preorder it. And it came in. And here�s the subtitle.
The true the true story of how I survived terrorists, morons, and an assassin to build one of the coolest leather companies in the world. And I�m like, who doesn�t wanna read that?
Elaine
Wanna read that. Now I have to put it on my list.
Jake Brown
I�m like, in the intro, like, that�s how far I got into it. I was like, I have to stop because I have dad duties. Like like, I was sitting there reading it, and I got to this point where I, like my alarm went off to, like, go start dinner yesterday. And I�m like, I bet they�re not that hung like, in my mind, I�m justifying, like, they can eat dinner an hour late. I can keep I can stick with this book a little bit longer.
But, know, I I did the mature thing. I fed my children.
Elaine
Adulting can be so
Jake Brown
difficult. Well,
Elaine
I�m glad you don�t adult all the time. You let your inner kid come out, and we all benefit. Thank you. You and I could talk forever and I would love to. Maybe we�ll have to do part two of this conversation another time.
But this time, tell us how we can find you. I think you�ve got a couple of things that might help make people�s lives a little better.
Jake Brown
So if if you�re interested about the weird stories and things, I�ll they are ridiculous stories in the book. You can actually go to leadership.co and download either PDF or audio, kind of the first chapter to get kind of the sample. I promise you, you will laugh. So if you�re interested in that and kind of that approach to work and surviving bad work, you can go there and download. And then the other thing, if you�re interested in some of the ADHD stuff that I�m doing, which is building like, we�re building your business and your life so it works the way that you think instead of the rules that other people, like the house rules that somebody else gave you that just don�t work.
If you�re interested in something, you go to jakebrown.co, there are free resources there. They�re all pretty self explanatory if you think like I do. If you�re neurotypical, you might look at it and be like, what is going on here? That�s fine.
Elaine
But everybody has a lovable ADHD human in their life. And, you know, let�s all learn. Let�s dig into the science and figure out how to make this go a little more smoothly.
Jake Brown
A little more fun too.
Elaine
Yeah. Absolutely. Everybody needs more fun. Jake, thank you so much for being here with me.
Jake Brown
Oh, you bet. It�s been a pleasure.
Elaine
We�ll do it again soon.
Elaine
Welcome, everybody. Today I am excited to introduce you to my friend and colleague, Jake Brown. Now, has made it his mission to help people survive and thrive even under some of the biggest life challenges such as bad bosses and ADHD. Jake is the author of Leadership, and that yes. That�s leader with s h I t on the end
Jake Brown
of
Elaine
it. It�s tales and tools to survive a bad boss and have fun at work. And I found this book to be super funny. It�s practical, and it�s very, very real. He�s been known to lead conference sessions using Legos and doodles, and it all makes me think that Jake�s real superpower is making work fun again.
His insights on ADHD workplace dynamics and how to navigate a toxic environment are truly life changing. And whether you�re managing your own energy or trying to understand the people you lead, this will be a conversation that will be worth every minute. So welcome, Jake.
Jake Brown
Thanks, Elaine.
Elaine
So let�s start by diving into, let�s say, dinosaurs and robots. Now, I was in a session you led at Grow, and it was the conference last February. And I think that you do a better job of showing up and making things fun than anybody else I know. And I want to know why is that? How do you do that?
Jake Brown
Honestly, I�m not exactly sure. It is I heard somebody years ago, I don�t even remember who it was, that said, your gift to the world is what people used to tell you was too much. And it was one those things I was like, as a kid, I was told, sit in the back of the room, draw, stop talking to other people. Like, what I was doing, it was like, now as I�ve studied and learned about my neurodivergence and, you know, the people around me, I�ve realized that where there�s dopamine, like, that is incredibly powerful. So it�s this idea that�s like, that is what I thrive on, and my biggest dopamine drive is watching other people smile and laugh.
So it�s this idea of, like, I needed people to smile so that I could survive work, so I could survive school, so I could do all these things. And just finding the ways that it�s like, if it�s not fun, I can�t engage it. Like, I struggle to force myself to work. And then as I got into a manager role and, like, leading other people, it�s just like it�s just this natural thing that it�s like, there�s a fun way to do everything. Like, I�ve even found a way that, you know, when I did my own taxes, like, it was fun.
Like, there was it was like, it�s this weird, like, mega sudoku puzzle thing, you know, where it�s like, I gotta figure this out. It�s this, like, national treasure thing that I�m figuring out.
Elaine
Well, I love that you�re really looking at the science behind it. I mean, you�re not just trying all these things willy nilly. You you have dug into the science behind it. So if you don�t mind, kind of describe what you did at the GROW conference, and then I�ll I�ll tell you what I took away from that too.
Jake Brown
Yeah. So the idea is when you go to a conference, a lot of times you�re thinking about everything. Your mind�s overwhelmed. Even, like, on the last day of the conference, you�re carrying everything. You you even start to feel like the real world�s starting to connect, and it�s hard to be present on that last day.
And one of my favorite things to do is just have this weird session. It only takes a few minutes, and I teach people to doodle. But the idea is I�m showing them how I�m taking them through the lens of neurodivergence, ADHD, autism. Like, we�re stepping into that and going, what if the psychology you break that down and you�re not judged anymore. Whatever output you have is judged.
And then the other one is neurology. Everything goes in or out of your brain, input or output. And I just teach people to go to that place where you make something that will never be judged. And the way they do is doodling. I learned it from my grandpa, and it�s changed the way I approach a lot of things.
I�ve taught it to my kids. I�ve done it at I mean, you know, now tens of thousands of people I�ve done this thing for. And it�s just this a couple minutes, I teach people how to doodle like they were a kid again, and it is amazing. I�ve done it up to 400 people in the room, and the room gets silent. I don�t think they�re, like, grown up professional, like, c suite people are in this room, and they�re doodling, it gets quiet, and they do it.
We throw it away so they can�t judge it. And what happens is it just your brain goes to a safe space where all of the distractions, all things clinging to you are just gone. They just let go. And it is almost eerie how present you are and everybody is in the room. And then, you know, eventually, people smile.
They reengage with the person right there in front of the task that�s in front of them, but they forget about their laundry. They forget about the, you know, their travel. They forget about TSA. They forget about, you know, their groceries or if their kid�s gonna get it to lacrosse practice on time. Like, there�s just a moment that everybody�s there.
Elaine
Yeah. And I can tell you that�s exactly what was happening on my side as a conference attendee because I�m sitting in this chair. So you walk in, you know, everybody�s running around, talking to each other, grabbing coffee, thinking that they have to check out later that morning. What are their travel plans? Who are they riding with to the airport?
So there�s all of this chaos in their heads like you�re talking about. And for this first speaker of the morning, it�s really important that everybody focus and listen. Kind of like you were describing, it�s the last day of the conference and you�re thinking, How in the heck are you going to get all these people to settle down and pay attention? But that was exactly what you did. We drew a robot, which as we established, I didn�t really care about So the robot so I didn�t mind drawing the robot, but it�s also and I�ve seen people ask you this question a lot, and they�re going, I can�t draw.
I can�t do all. I can�t draw. I can�t do what you do. But you walked us through it kind of step by step, and just the focus on making the shapes on the page. Suddenly, like you said, everything got quiet and people started to do it and there was no judgment and people were ready for Katherine Brown to take the stage that morning.
So I just found that exceptionally and very surprisingly powerful for getting this room full of people to pay attention.
Jake Brown
Thank you so much for that encouragement. It it is wild, and people are always skeptical. And what�s funny is, like, they they�re like, okay. Whatever. But when they do it, I mean, it�s like the response I get afterward is always amazing.
Like, I spend more time talking to people about what just happened afterward than I do doodling. Like, I would say if we do a ten minute doodle, I might talk to people for thirty, forty minutes afterwards about their ten minute doodle. And I�m like, like, just go doodle again. Like, get to work. Like, this is
Elaine
I love it. And you use your doodle as kind of a tool in your coaching as well with ADHD clients. Correct?
Jake Brown
Yes.
Elaine
Because you said that it kind of makes a space either between your calls or between tasks where you can leave one task behind, do, you know, do some doodling, settle down, and then be ready for the next task.
Jake Brown
Right. Yeah. With ADHD, two of the things that really affect us are, you know, inattentive, like, can can we choose to focus on something? That�s very difficult. But once we get focused on something, hyperfocus is amazing, Like, getting into that and knocking stuff out.
It�s kinda like neurotypical people think of the flow state. People will talk about the flow state, but then imagine that your brain only has one track and you�re not just, like, a train, but you�re I mean, you�re like, you know, formula one race car driving on the same like, that is what happens is all that overlaps for ADHD. And what I found is if I can get into hyper focus, I can actually get ten hours of work done in about three hours. So getting into that space is amazing and I found that doodling the practice of doodling, I can trigger hyperfocus for myself. And at the same time, task switching.
I�ve heard it, you know, with there�s lots of statistics out there, but for neurotypical, they�ll say, if you task switch, it could take twenty minutes. Like, if you get interrupted, it can take twenty minutes to get back into that task. Well, I saw I was watching a webinar of a psychiatrist in England. He said, if you have ADHD and you get interrupted, it may take two weeks to get back into that task. And I was like first of all, I felt validated.
I�m like, yes. That�s exactly how it is. Like, brain cannot find out where I was. I have to back up to the beginning and work all the way back But with doodling, if you�re task switching or if you get interrupted or whatever, what happens is the doodling lets all that junk let go of you. And then the first thing that our mind sees, we are present with that task only.
And it�s not that there are four things and some of them are, you know, newer or shiny object. Like, our brain will attach to the thing that�s, like, the the best option in front of us. Well, by doodling, we can set it up to where there�s only one thing in front of us. And your brain will see that that that�s novel, that that�s new, that that not necessarily important, but it�s exciting. It�s the fun thing.
It�s the next new thing in front of you. Even if it�s an old thing, it�s just newer than the doodle.
Elaine
Yeah. Okay. And you were talking about people being skeptical. Yeah. And so you�ve run into this either with leaders, managers, maybe even HR people who you�re talking about the challenges, the unique challenges of ADHD and neurotypical versus neurodivergent and how there are some different techniques they can try and use.
It seems like you do hit some skepticism periodically because they just don�t get how this thing that you�re recommending would work. Can you think of an instance, any stories you can share about when you suggested something that people found that they were super skeptical about?
Jake Brown
A lot. A lot of Yeah. A lot of stuff. I mean, because I am neurodivergent, so my brain processes. I see things from a different perspective.
So then when I�m talking to other people, specifically that have ADHD, like, I can make sense to them really well. But if there�s a neurotypical person who�s the decision maker, for instance, an HR director or somebody like that or the CEO, like, they I have to remember, they can�t understand just like I I have trouble understanding their way or their employees are having trouble following their vision because they don�t understand it. Well, the CEO or the HR director, they think their way. Like, their brain is wired and they process information, and I have to approach it differently. And there are several things.
I mean, the doodling is one. Like you mentioned, the Lego workshops. Like, nobody thinks that we�re gonna play with Legos for an hour, and at the end of it, our team�s gonna be completely unified about the vision and where we�re headed over the next five years. Like, that�s not a thing that seems like it should work, but it always has. That�s one man, all kinds of stuff.
Just I�m trying to think of, like, specific examples. One of my favorite things right now is, like, having companies when they�re having trouble with, say, community or as they�ve gone remote or they�re working in different places is these coworking calls. In neurodivergence, like, in our world, it�s called body doubling, and it�s what it actually is is most people like accountability. But for ADHD, accountability is actually a judgment, and it�s predetermined failure. That�s how our mind processes it.
But if we are working and somebody�s just walking beside us, I call it nudging, it�s this idea that we get a lot of stuff done. And then especially, like, if I go to a coffee shop even and I�m working on something and then I get distracted and I look up and I see somebody else that�s reading a book or, like, they�re working, I just drift back into work mode. Like, I just immediately it�s kinda like the bumpers at the bowling alley. I just bump straight back into work. Well, that�s what these calls do for a lot of people.
And it�s like some people I have one client. They have, I mean, some of them have, like, nine. Some of them have two people. One of them has about 35 people. And every Friday morning, they do this coworking call.
It�s two hours long right before lunch, and then they all get on. They sit in quiet. They do their work. They have their cameras on on Zoom, you know, they pipe music in like they�re all sitting in the same coffee shop or they�re in the same room working. And it just they�ve told me, they�re like, we get so much work done.
They�re like, our team gets, like, three days worth of work done in that two hours just collectively, and they�re not talking to each other. They�re just all head down moving their stuff forward. And it�s worked so well now that through the summer, they have that call. It ends at it actually ends at 11AM. And then at that point, they�ll stay on and eat lunch together, but they�re done.
Like, at 11AM, they�re done for the week because all of their work is done. They get the time off, but they said a lot of times they�ll just sit there and eat their lunch and hang out together, kinda have like a a Zoom, you know,
Elaine
break room. Room.
Jake Brown
Yeah. Zoom lunch room. And one of the guys was like, and it�s amazing because you can�t smell their fish. Like, you can�t smell what the other person warmed up. So they do that.
And the the lady that was in charge, so it�s a husband and wife that own this company, and the lady is in charge of the HR and, you know, the operations, stuff like that, and she was very, very skeptical. But they got to the point where their turnover and they were having a lot of trouble specifically with they have they draw in you know, their industry draws in more excited, you know, people. They had a high, group of ADHD. And they�re like, how do we just keep people engaged? How do we do this?
How do we not have a revolving door? And it�s like, well, you�ve got a culture problem because you�ve built something that they don�t wanna be a part of. Well, how do we get them together? Well, these Zoom calls, because they�re around you know, they�re all over the country. And by having these calls, like I said, it was skeptical.
And I was like, what are you gonna lose? Like, you you do a weird call. If it doesn�t work, you blame me. Like, I�m the weird outsider that tried this thing, and then you tell the team, yeah. Sorry, guys.
That guy was weird. And it worked. And, like, I�ve been working with them for, you know that company I�ve been working with for, you know, over a year. So when I threw that one in there, they were a little bit more responsive, but, you know, or more receiving, but not I mean, it was definitely like you know, they were, like, riding the gas and the brakes at the same time. They�re like, I don�t know about this, Jake.
Elaine
Well, I want to talk about your book for a second. All right. That�s something that I think a lot of people that do have ADHD are hesitant to even tackle a task like that. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. By the way, I wanted to tell everybody, when I was trying to search for the book on Amazon and I was typing in leadership, the Amazon search bar would not let me keep putting it in there.
So I just want everybody to know we�ll have links in the show notes. It kept trying to say LeaderShift Yes. With an Feet, which is like, that�s not even
Jake Brown
John Maxwell�s team pays a lot of money in ads and stuff, and I just I can�t find it. Like, seriously, they have they�re running ads to my book title to go to their book. So they�re, like, they�re paying to have it. Bored. Yeah.
Marketing money. That�s aggravating. Yeah.
Elaine
But, you know I�ll be aggravated on your behalf.
Jake Brown
At the same time, though, I�m like, Man, I showed up on John Maxwell�s radar. Like, how cool is that?
Elaine
Well, I ended up putting the quotes on either side of it. So I was like, quote, leadership, and, you know, close quote, by Jake Brown.
Jake Brown
Yeah. So if you put my name, it shows up.
Elaine
And then it came up. But we�ll have the link in the show notes so you don�t have to search and get directed to the wrong place. All right. Said that. Now, talk to me about your book.
You took a really bad situation, made it better, and then wrote about it. How did you get started on the book? How did you keep going? Because so many people have it in their head that they want to write a book, but they don�t follow through and get her done. So how did you make it happen?
Jake Brown
Alright. So to start with, how did I write the book? It was a perfect time. I was having a bunch of conversations with people, and it seemed like every conversation, people were talking about how much they hated work, how much they hated their boss. And I realized I was telling the same stories.
Like, I was talking to people, was telling stories, I was engaging with them, you know, I was listening to them. The same issues were coming up over and over again and I just thought, hey. I should record the like, I should I should document these stories that I keep telling over and over again. And that was the idea of the book. It was kinda like this idea that it was a leadership book, but not from the almost, you know, the like, I didn�t think of it at the time, but, like, wicked.
It�s like, what if it was told from the other person�s perspective? And that�s what I wanted to do is, like, let me tell about a bad leader from the person watching or stuck in the middle middle management leadership. Yeah. You know? So that�s that�s the idea of the book.
And it was this idea where it�s like, I�m gonna do it, but I�m not gonna do it the normal way because that�s not my thing. That�s not who you are. Yeah. That that would be totally off brand to follow rules. So I just started thinking about it.
I was telling the stories. I started documenting some of them. And then at the same time, there was this really amazing lady who was following my emails and replied one day. It�s still flagged in mine, and it said, never stop writing. That was you, Elaine.
It was just just this complete encouragement that comes up all the time where it was like so ADHD, dyslexic, that was my background. Don�t eat like, reading in public is one of my biggest fears. But got into reading my emails. People were following them, liking them, replying to them. I still if I send an email, I get at this point, I send out just a marketing just a regular email, and I get 25, 30 people will hit reply and just respond to me.
And I�m like, I�m not a great writer, but I think just it�s engaging. Like, it�s working the way my stories were going. Yeah. And then people were kinda like, oh, is this gonna be a book? Like, what�s gonna happen?
And I was like, I don�t know. I decided I was gonna make it a book. And every time I got into it, the first things I actually did was I recorded myself telling the stories. Mhmm. And then I listened to them and thought, okay.
Yeah. This is how the story sounds. Like, this is what we�re liking about the story. So then I use that as raw material to then go and write. Some of them I transcribed so they could look at it and move it, but some of them it was just, you know, I listened to the story, then I like, okay.
I�m gonna write this how I tell the story, and then I�m gonna go back and edit it. So there�s actually kinda two voices. My wife calls it Jake and Head Jake. And it�s this idea that it�s like, you get to hear me living through this, like, through each story, but you also get to hear my internal, like, commentary. You know, like, the old guys on the Muppets that are like, Yeah.
You know, like, there�s that version of me in there too, like, talking like, what are you doing? Like, just kind of the inside thought. So that�s kinda as I started writing the book. And what I did is I documented the stories, and then I went through and I said, but what do I actually want them to know? Like, who is it?
I didn�t know exactly who it was for at the time. I just know I was getting the stories out. And I thought, okay. Well, who is it for? And for their conversations with, you know, you, several other people, like, that were writing books and what they did.
And I had people that I look up to read parts of it and stuff and get back to me, and they�re like, this is so weird. And then one person I sent, you know, an early manuscript to texted me at, like, 4AM and said I I sent it to him, like, after dinner. And they texted me at, like, 4AM. And they�re like, I just finished your book. Like, I stayed up to and I was just like, this hasn�t even been proofread and edited yet.
Like, oh my goodness. So it was and then another person jokingly one of the comments, a review that somebody posted, they said it�s a two poop book. And I was like, is that good? And what they were saying is, like, like, they read it in the bathroom and it moves quickly. You know, it�s kinda like, oh, it only takes two sittings to read the book.
And I was like, that is the strangest rating I have ever heard in my life. But they liked it. So going through the whole experience of launching the book, I just did it goofy, tongue in cheek, you know. Like, my my cover reveal was sitting on top of a urinal, like, on the pipes of a urinal. Was just, like, everything.
I wanted it to be junior high poop jokes. Like, I just I wanted to have that humor as I move forward. And like you said, when I slowed down, when it got hard, there because were definitely places where it got hard and I wanted to quit Yeah. Part of what I did is I let a group of people know that I was doing it, and they would check on it. And it was like, okay.
I�m gonna let them down if I don�t do this. And one of the biggest urges was somebody close to me, like like, extended married family, expressed very heavy doubt out loud in a like, with a small group of people that they thought I would actually be able to complete this. And as my wife says, the number one way to make me do something is to tell me I can�t. Yeah. And, you know, so that was there was a motor in me from that.
And then there were people around me that were checking on it. And then there were the people that were just constantly encouraging me. And then there were people that I could just text. And it was like, even if I�m down, I�m like, man, I�m just having a rough day. Like, I�m not getting words out or whatever.
And there were people that just made it a safe place to struggle with words, to struggle with all of it. And when I had doubt, you know, there were people that were kinda like there was one day that I was gonna give up on the book. Like, I had gotten to the point where I was like, this is hard. I�m staying up at night. I don�t I say I was giving up on the book.
It only took me a couple months to write it and get it done when I finally started because I already had the stories collected and I think organizing Yeah. And stuff like that. But as I was like, it was just hard, and I was like, nobody cares about this. Like, this is weird. It�s, you know, it�s just gonna be a flash in the pan.
No you know, it�s too weird. And I was gonna give up on it. And I talked to I just ended up talking to a lady, and she had heard about my book. So we we like, just through networking new people, we hopped on a Zoom call, talked about it. And she was like, I need this for my son because he�s been trapped in a really bad job, and he just needs I just need him to have hope.
And that�s like, she said that. I was like, okay. For the rest of the duration of it, it was kinda like I was writing like, she even told me his name. And I wrote on a Post it note, it was like, this book has to be done for him. Because he needs it.
Right.
Elaine
Yeah.
Jake Brown
Like so it�s like, I�m gonna serve him. Like, this needs to be there. And I realized, like, I needed this book, you know, five years ago. Whatever. Like, I needed this.
Yeah. He needs it. Like so that was it was kind of that mix of how do you keep going. The other thing was breaking it down into really little achievable bits. Like, I call them laps.
I didn�t know anything better. And I was like, writing a book is incredibly hard. And if I knew everything that it was going to be, there�s no way I would have started But I got into it and, like I said, like, having conversations with you and several other people just kept me moving and kinda kinda kept that stuff clear in front of me. It was kinda like, I did some things differently. Like, the first thing for the book, the working title was leadership.
That is still the title. Because Yeah. When you read the intro, it�s a typo that changed the way that I manage. It changed my view of work, and then it changed the way I talk to people, and then it it became the book. So it�s like the typo that changed my life.
Like, I actually went out and started my own business because of this typo eventually. So I was like, that has to be the title. Think everybody you you say the title of the book, and everybody�s like, oh, let me tell you about my boss. Like, everybody has a boss somewhere. And that�s like, guys, it was these stories, and nobody wanted a lecture.
So it�s the stories with, like, a nugget. Like, by the way, here�s this and here�s the tool to move forward. Yeah. So I�m kinda rambling now. But No.
I a hard process. But Yeah. Breaking it to those small things, it became sprints. And it was like, I just started listing the stories, and I went back and said, how do they fit? Which ones include which ones move the person from day one and realizing this is a bad situation, bad boss, all the way to day last?
Like, when they have hope, when they�re healthy. And I already had the framework I had taught people along the way. So then it was like, okay. How do I now put that into the book? How do I give people that tool where they can use it and kind of assess and know how to move forward?
Because originally, that tool wasn�t in there. Mhmm. I was gonna make it something outside that people could get. And one of my mentors, actually a pastor, was looking at it. And two things, I said, okay.
Now I gotta find a title. And he because I was, you know, worried about the title or whatever. And he told me he was like, here�s the thing. He goes, are you trying to get on the shelves at a church bookstore or help people that are stuck in darkness? So a pastor told me to keep the title, and he also told me that he told me put that tool.
Like, let�s just stick it on the back. I�m like, but that sounds weird to have, like, a memoir and tool combo thing. And he was like, since when do you care? Like, is this gonna help people? And I was like, alright.
So that�s kinda how the book came together. It was talking to a lot of other people, hearing what they were saying, sharing the stories, and just going, like, doing a little bit of hard work. And I did not necessarily think long term as the project ended. Like, I I said, this is what I want the project to be. How can I launch it at this time?
But then I I I got very shortsighted on the lapse. And then at one point, I remember looking at it and going, like, I�m almost done. And then I just, like, stayed up that night and, like, just crushed what was left because I was like, like, why would I why would I take another week on this? Like, I can be done when I wake up tomorrow.
Elaine
So That�s awesome. Well, I want to recap a couple of the things you said because they�re so important. So number one, you�re a storyteller, and that�s why I told you you should never stop writing. Even if the writing part is hard, you were living through things and sharing stories that we could all relate to. Just like you said, every single person you say that to can go, Oh, I had a boss.
Let me tell you. I mean, it�s so relatable. We�re going to come back to your tool, the framework here in just a second. The other things I want to point out about what you said is that everybody�s process is a little different, but there�s so much good about your process because you are more naturally verbal. Like my brain is wired to my fingers.
I type. I find it very difficult to speak a story first. I write first. So my way isn�t the way for everybody. So everybody needs to kind of find their own structure for their writing process, That�s one of the things that I included when I put together the course on writing a book.
So I have a course on writing the book, but the other thing I found was, just like you found this group of people to support you and stay with it, is that people who were joining the course weren�t necessarily finishing because they didn�t have this ongoing support. I added office hours to my course so that people can still come in and have somebody to bounce things off of. And accountability. Yeah. That doesn�t mean failure, just accountability to to keep going.
The
Jake Brown
the difference between I would say the accountability is, is it somebody that�s judging you or somebody that�s hoping for you? And that�s the biggest difference is, like, with you, there are a lot of people that hope for me, but they�re not judging the, you know, gap and gain. Like, they�re not they�re hoping. They�re hoping ahead of me. They�re kinda in that future and hoping as opposed to judging me in the past.
In most accountability, it feels like it�s the past. But when you have people that are excited and it�s kinda like, oh, man. I read this chapter. Like, when does that resolve? Or I I saw this.
Like, you told this other story. Like, is this story gonna be in there? Like, when people were curious and leaning in and they were kinda hoping and it�s kinda like it wasn�t so much that I was letting them down as I was trying to keep pace with their excitement of what I was doing.
Elaine
Yeah. That�s gold. So tell me, so let�s go back to your framework and the guy who said it was the to poop read. That was a good lead in to what is called the wipe framework. So you do have a tool and you�re doing coaching, so how are you guiding people through this process?
It occurred to me, I�m going to add this, it occurred to me that even though a lot of people are reading this book and thinking, What do I have to do to deal with this situation? Do I stay? Do I go? How do I manage this? So they�re thinking that, but you and I know so many people who are entrepreneurs and they�re out there working on their own, and they may have built something that they no longer like or align with, and it�s time to make a change or refine what they do, but they stay with what they know, and so they�ve become their own boss that�s kind of perhaps setting the wrong expectations and leading them in the wrong direction.
So I would argue that this framework can be used for individuals who are their own boss, solopreneurs, or if you�re working for a giant corporation.
Jake Brown
I I definitely did this. I launched my own company, and at the end of the first quarter, I went through the framework for myself, and I realized I was by far the worst, most abusive boss I had ever had. I was like, if anybody treated me the way that I was treating me, they would go to jail. Like, it was so bad. But I mean, that�s how we do when we launch out because it is you know, it�s it�s our work, it�s our family�s livelihood, it is our hobby, it is it is our hope, it is our passion.
Like, everything�s built into that one. And then you kind of step back and go, okay. Made it through that. Now I need to adjust before this becomes horrible. Well,
Elaine
so so tell me you�ll have to tell us the whole framework, but just give us an idea. What advice are you giving people when they find themselves in one of these situations?
Jake Brown
Yeah. Basically, you answer two questions and you�re in one of four quads. It�s like, what this is the role that you�re playing. And the acronym of those four is white. There�s the winner, the intern, the prisoner, and the expert.
And this can change very quickly. Like, you can be if you get a promotion, if somebody else on staff changes, if projects, you know, you can slide into one of the other squares and you kinda like look at and go, okay. Where am I right now? And after you know where you are, then you have to choose. Basically, are you gonna stay there?
Are you just gonna sit still and hope it gets better? Or are you going to do the work? Because one of the things I found through the process was I was expecting a boss to make me better and mentor me. That was not the boss�s expectation of our relationship. And I realized that it was my job to actually grow me.
Like, I had to be responsible for that. Nobody else was going to. So then it�s like, okay. If I need to grow myself, but then the team and the people I was leading, well, how do I teach them to do that and make space for them to grow? Well, I had to get to the winner square to realize that for other people.
You know? And one of the main things I say about the winner is, your job, if you�re in the winner square like, first of all, I don�t know why you�re reading my book. But if you�re there, your job is to teach other people to wipe themselves. Because, you know, like, it�s sim I�m a parent. I have four kids.
And a big part of parenting, like, there�s this big milestone when your kids can go to the bathroom and wipe themselves. Like, when they can take care of their whole bathroom experience on their own, like, that�s a major milestone in development. And I realized when you�re managing people, when they own their own self awareness and growth, like, that is a huge milestone for future leaders and for middle manager and for any employee. Now you wanna be there and encourage them. So the idea there is it goes, okay.
Well, say you are I don�t know. So you take the assessment and you realize that you�re the expert. That actually means that you are able, capable, and allowed. You�re great at your job, but you�re not aligned with the owner, the company, the team, the mission. Like so your options are go find somewhere else that you�re aligned or sit still and hope the company shifts into, you know, to become aligned with you, which honestly is just bad advice.
And then the third option is to actually change your alignment. Find something. Find a way to reengage to become aligned. And if you do that, then you can slide into that winner square. But it�s, you know, pretty simple things where I give advice in the book where it�s like, depending on where you are, figure out the position you�re in, which part is or isn�t.
Are you aligned and able? Like, what is missing? And then you pick one. Like, okay. This is where it is.
I need to be intentional about working on alignment with the team, or I need to be intentional about gaining skills. Like, there are a lot of times where I�ll say the hardest one to overcome is there�s, like, are you able to do your job? There�s two parts of that. Do you have the skills? Are you capable of doing your and are you allowed?
Like, that�s the one. Like, does your boss actually allow you to do your job? Does the team like, are do you have ownership? Can you like, are you allowed to do it? And I found that I was there several times, but when I got stuck in that point, I actually found ways to work on that because it�s a it�s trust.
And a lot of times, the boss doesn�t actually trust themselves to delegate. It has nothing to do with us. But it feels like it�s our fault, it�s our problem, it�s crushing because we�re babysat, micromanaging, all this kind of stuff. But the fact is most bosses are bad at delegating because they know that they�re going to fail you, so they stay involved too long because they don�t know what to do. Well, you can build trust there because the way I define trust is somebody like, you know that somebody does what they say they�ll do.
So you have to go, okay. So do so say you�re gonna do something, then do it, then make sure the boss knows. It seems kinda counterintuitive, but reminding the boss because the boss a lot of people are always looking for fires. Teammates, they�re putting out the fires of squeaky wheels. Sometimes we have to stop them and be like, hey.
Remember those last seven projects that went great? Like, this is what I did. I�m doing this all the time. Can I just do it without, like instead of talking every day, can I maybe do this and then check-in at the end of, you know, at the end of the week? Like, actually teaching the boss to trust you means that you are more allowed.
And that I I learned that over years of pain. And then one day, it just dawned on me, you know, watching my kids, interacting with my kids, and realizing that I have to allow them to trip and fail. I have to make space for that. Well, then how do you get that? Well, you ask for it.
You you have to be intentional about your own growth. So that�s kind of some quick examples of how it works.
Elaine
Yeah. That�s great. So what books are you reading right now?
Jake Brown
Oh, so I actually just started two books. They�re very, very different. So one of them is Escape from Tarikiak, a guy named Ben that book. Yeah. So Yes.
A friend, wrote this and launched it. He actually sat down with his kids, and they just, like, brainstormed and came up with all these crazy ideas telling stories back and forth. And then they spent years, like, massaging it into, this book. So I just, been diving into that, and it is I would say, it�s kind of the idea of, like, family adventure, kid led family adventure stuff. It is ridiculously fun, the crazy things.
Like, there�s, like, this there�s this walrus pirate guy that�s, like, addicted to coffee. Like, it it�s it�s crazy. So it is good stuff. And then the other one I just started is called they�ll fight over it when you�re dead by Dave Munson. So it is if you�ve heard of Saddleback Leather, like the the bags, the satchels, and stuff.
So I had I�ve had one of their satchels for years, but it is his story about so this here�s the I heard that he was doing like, my wife saw it, I was like, yes. I want that book. Preorder it. And it came in. And here�s the subtitle.
The true the true story of how I survived terrorists, morons, and an assassin to build one of the coolest leather companies in the world. And I�m like, who doesn�t wanna read that?
Elaine
Wanna read that. Now I have to put it on my list.
Jake Brown
I�m like, in the intro, like, that�s how far I got into it. I was like, I have to stop because I have dad duties. Like like, I was sitting there reading it, and I got to this point where I, like my alarm went off to, like, go start dinner yesterday. And I�m like, I bet they�re not that hung like, in my mind, I�m justifying, like, they can eat dinner an hour late. I can keep I can stick with this book a little bit longer.
But, know, I I did the mature thing. I fed my children.
Elaine
Adulting can be so
Jake Brown
difficult. Well,
Elaine
I�m glad you don�t adult all the time. You let your inner kid come out, and we all benefit. Thank you. You and I could talk forever and I would love to. Maybe we�ll have to do part two of this conversation another time.
But this time, tell us how we can find you. I think you�ve got a couple of things that might help make people�s lives a little better.
Jake Brown
So if if you�re interested about the weird stories and things, I�ll they are ridiculous stories in the book. You can actually go to leadership.co and download either PDF or audio, kind of the first chapter to get kind of the sample. I promise you, you will laugh. So if you�re interested in that and kind of that approach to work and surviving bad work, you can go there and download. And then the other thing, if you�re interested in some of the ADHD stuff that I�m doing, which is building like, we�re building your business and your life so it works the way that you think instead of the rules that other people, like the house rules that somebody else gave you that just don�t work.
If you�re interested in something, you go to jakebrown.co, there are free resources there. They�re all pretty self explanatory if you think like I do. If you�re neurotypical, you might look at it and be like, what is going on here? That�s fine.
Elaine
But everybody has a lovable ADHD human in their life. And, you know, let�s all learn. Let�s dig into the science and figure out how to make this go a little more smoothly.
Jake Brown
A little more fun too.
Elaine
Yeah. Absolutely. Everybody needs more fun. Jake, thank you so much for being here with me.
Jake Brown
Oh, you bet. It�s been a pleasure.
Elaine
We�ll do it again soon.
