324 - Facilitating Reflections: Beyond Tools and Into Ourselves with Thomas Lahnthaler

WEBVTT
00:00:02.479 --> 00:00:04.400
What does it take to make workshops work?
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:08.560
And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results?
00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:15.679
My name is Miriam Happen, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:26.879
Today with me on the show is the one and only Thomas Landhaler, who has just published his second book, Facilitating Reflections.
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:42.399
And for me it's a never done before in the podcast format because I have prepared it, I've read his book, and we've done together what he is inviting the reader of the book.
00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:55.679
We are looking in the mirror, and I hold the mirror for Thomas to dig a little bit deeper into some of the concepts that he describes in the book and leaves open to interpretation and self-reflection.
00:00:56.320 --> 00:01:00.719
So put everything aside to stay really focused on this conversation.
00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:10.079
I hope that it also motivates you to think and reflect on some of the facilitation buzzwords and concepts in a new light.
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:16.959
So scroll down to the show notes to find the links to the book if you haven't bought it already.
00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:19.519
Um and to subscribe to the show if you enjoyed.
00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:20.959
Thank you for listening.
00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:25.200
Thomas Landhaler, the one and only.
00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:36.239
It's been a long time, and um I just finished reading your book.
00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:38.640
The first read, I have to say.
00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:52.239
And um, so this is uh a never done before moment for me, because usually I'm very proud of not preparing my podcast recordings and conversations.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:55.280
And for today's conversation I did prepare.
00:01:55.760 --> 00:02:01.760
So I read your book and I'm very curious to just go through a conversation.
00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:07.120
I picked out a few sentences that kind of stood out to me.
00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:13.840
And then hoping that I hear your perspective and have a little bit of a conversation before jumping to the next one.
00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:18.560
Um there are ways too many to cover them all.
00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:24.879
And before we uh getting there, maybe you want to share what was your initial intention with the book.
00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:27.759
So when you started writing, what did you want to write about?
00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:29.919
And as you finished, what came out?
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:32.000
So first and foremost, thank you for reading it.
00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:42.080
You're the first person that actually read it or heard about it outside my book coach and the person who did uh wonderful illustrations.
00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:43.759
I don't really know.
00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:48.159
I actually didn't even think I want or wasn't even sure I wanted to write a book.
00:02:48.319 --> 00:03:08.240
It was in a way the first I have to go back a bit in time because when I sh when I started sharing a bit more about my thoughts on facilitation and what I back then called facilitation hacks, I saw that there was a resonance, which surprised me, but which of course is always nice to know that that it can spark conversations that people were interested in engaging.
00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:16.800
And it's it's I think it's really those the comments that for me were more interested, even though people kept writing here and there, when are you collecting them in a book?
00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:18.479
And then I almost felt like that.
00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:21.439
I think that was the first um incentive in a way.
00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:23.919
Okay, people ask me to do this, so I might just want to do this.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:30.240
But you know me, and I know myself as well, enough intent, unfortunately, even though I appreciate it.
00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:36.000
But for me, I start when I started writing and I wrote a lot first, it was almost like I have written this already.
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:40.159
So it's a bit like the the i i there was no inspiration.
00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:50.639
It was almost like nah, I've I've shared that kind of uh it doesn't didn't seem like I wanted to put that in a book because it's already in a inbox somehow my blog, anyway, on on LinkedIn.
00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:52.960
But then there was still something else going on.
00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.840
I I felt that there was there was something going on, something sitting there.
00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:03.520
I personally went through a transition that we have spoken a lot in our repeated conversations in terms of where does my facilitation journey lead me?
00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:04.800
So what's next for me?
00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:09.360
And it felt somehow good to kind of take a look in the mirror and also these facilitation hacks.
00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.400
It was interesting because then after a year I went back to the first ones I wrote.
00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:14.400
I'm like, I'm not even sure I think this still.
00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:15.840
So this is when it when it started.
00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:26.639
And I had, of course, the privilege to work with with a fantastic book coach who will also be recognized in uh in a few days when the book's out, but uh Jane Hajono, um whom you also whom you also know.
00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:31.360
And she really she she was very patient with me, but she helped me to find exactly what you asked me.
00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:43.839
So to come to the other end of it, what eventually, I think it was pretty much last fall when I had this epiphany in the sense of that I what I want to write is actually I don't want to have explanations in the book.
00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:46.399
So I don't want to kind of explain myself to people.
00:04:46.480 --> 00:05:05.040
I just want to share what I think because the book shouldn't be about me, the book should be about people and should be about the topic that has become more and more important for me in my facilitation practice, but also for when when I work with with others is is the self-clarification, self-awareness, self-consciousness of who we are as facilitators.
00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.879
And I think, and I've observed, and I think we're not discussing this enough.
00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.399
People might be doing it to different degrees, but we're not talking about it enough.
00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:17.600
So that's that became ultimately my my driver, and I went through the same process writing the book.
00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:30.079
This is also what's somehow is in there with some of these sentences that you mentioned before and other things, but but they should just really be stimuli for a conversation and not the ultimate truth or the only truth or the way to go.
00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:36.000
Uh this is just a glimpse behind the curtain of what what I think currently, which might change again in the future.
00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:36.800
Beautiful.
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:37.519
Thank you.
00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:51.439
Yeah, and what um really came through for me was the bottom line that facilitation is more of an art of self-exploration than the craft that we can learn.
00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:54.000
I think fun one follows the other for me, right?
00:05:54.160 --> 00:06:09.360
So I believe that when we just talk about the craft, we're we're not doing ourselves justice in a way, because we're showing up as who we are, and with our wonderful stories, difficult stories, values, experience, beliefs, views.
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:19.439
And somehow I feel we so desperately try to put that all into the box of a facilitator mandate that it becomes a bit limited almost, right?
00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:41.759
And that we and because it's so uh the narrative goes more and more into like, you know, we're just basically we're just the guests and we're just guiding and just following and all those things, that we we forget that we come with way more complex background stories, uh, and they all feed into what we do, and they all feed into how we show up, and they all feed into what we decide to do and how to how we guide the group.
00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:47.120
So leaving that out is almost a bit like you you you make it very technical.
00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:55.519
Uh you you focus on, yeah, you're sure you talk about the people in the room, but it's almost like there's this big blind spot that this you who is also a person in the room.
00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.959
So for me, they they kind of uh they they belong together in a way.
00:06:59.199 --> 00:06:59.839
Yeah.
00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:05.199
So there's so many ways we could approach this.
00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:08.800
And I will just pick sentences.
00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:17.360
So I have uh your book I highlighted sentences, and we're like, okay, they would could be interesting to explore, just to put them there.
00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.319
We see how far we get in the time we have.
00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:24.319
Frameworks are wonderful structures to hide behind.
00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.040
I mean it's difficult now to not bias people, right?
00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:32.160
Because of course the book is intended to create reactions in people without without explaining too much.
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:47.439
So I was a huge fan of frameworks like my whole career, pretty much, because I find fascinating how people manage to put things together in very effective ways that always lead to something that makes sense in the sequence that kind of seem to trigger things in in people.
00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:59.839
The older I got, the more I started to play with with frameworks in the sense that I I took them rather as inspiration uh than as really as how-to guides, because framework consists of different elements.
00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:06.079
I mean, it's like it's comparable with a car or with a bike or anything else, so you can take it apart and you can uh switch other things in and so on.
00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:13.040
And that that's that's what I find exciting too, because you're not necessarily changing the the whole idea of the framework, but you're almost like like a cover song.
00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:14.959
And that's what I would describe it as.
00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.480
Cover song is also an appreciation of of the original song.
00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:24.079
But what I also learned, and and this is a bit where this sentence comes from, is that it can be very easy.
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.319
It can be a very easy way for me to uh to meet a group.
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:32.159
I'm very comfortable with one framework, I use it all the time, I feel safe.
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:36.480
So that that means back to what I've said earlier, I don't necessarily have to show up as myself.
00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:39.120
It's almost like I can use it as a safeguard because I know the method.
00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:40.399
The method always works.
00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:44.799
It's like everybody has their favorite, favorite tools and favorite exercises and stuff.
00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:46.720
Uh and the same goes for frameworks.
00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:54.159
And for me, I've learned that I use frameworks more often when I'm not feeling safe in a group, when I feel safe in a group.
00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.000
Because when I feel not safe in a group, this is in a way it gives me structure.
00:08:58.159 --> 00:08:59.840
It gives me kind of the path that I can go.
00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:02.159
It gives me something that I know how works.
00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:07.919
But when I leave the, when I leave it away or when I dissect it, that's when I start to move into the unknown.
00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.480
That's also when I might make myself vulnerable, right?
00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:20.480
When I use the a technique that is from A to C, there are so many techniques out there, I'm not going to mention any of them now, because that might be heard as a criticism, which is not, which is not what is meant at.
00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.879
But the point is when I use the method as it's as it's outlined, I know.
00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:26.879
I know what they get, I know what I get.
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:34.399
And for me, there's a part of connection missing, not necessarily connecting, because I I'm focused on that path, and I am very well safeguarded.
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:35.759
That's how I felt anyway.
00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:36.559
So yeah.
00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:39.200
How how did it feel for you reading this sentence?
00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:48.559
There's a part of me that agrees that yes, a framework is a structure, and then we can go and autopilot.
00:09:48.720 --> 00:10:01.279
There's another part of me that sees the framework as a scaffolding that helps me to focus on what's really relevant because I don't have to take care of the structure.
00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:05.279
And then I think it's um it can be a trap to over-rely on it.
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:08.080
So if it crashes, then everything falls apart.
00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:13.519
So it the way I picture it is is almost that I hold it up in front of me, right?
00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:21.919
And then I can, of course, when it's needed in situations, I glimpse out and I can I can basically handle whatever comes up, but then I go back, oh let's go back to the framework, right?
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:25.200
Or let's go back to the next step where we have to move on to this step now.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:32.960
And I had a very interesting conversation with uh a good friend of both of ours, um Yuan, uh a while back.
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:41.600
And we talked, and I told him how I use the one, two, for all method, which is completely the opposite of how it's intended by liberating structures.
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:49.840
And he was he was he was curious about it, but I could also see he was a bit confused because that was originally not the idea of it, right?
00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:57.279
And I think that's that's a way where I think what what what helped me to say, like, okay, this is this is a tool, but how can I show up in the tool?
00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:06.799
And we've had these conversations about signatures so many times where where I found like if I just use somebody else's method without finding my own space in it, that's when I feel I'm hiding behind it.
00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:11.600
I when I make it in a way my own, however I do that, right?
00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:14.879
I feel I'm not hiding anymore because I'm then I'm in it.
00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:21.039
Then I'm also like I'm I this is part of me and I'm part of the method, and then it becomes more natural for me to include it in my framework.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.720
It's interesting because it these are the three things, right?
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:31.519
Um, there's the me as the facilitator, there is the method or the framework, and there is the group.
00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:37.039
And it almost feels like the moment and you speak in the book also a lot about agendas.
00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:45.840
Agendas and framework, and I it feels as if you have a similar understanding of their limitations or the misleading concepts.
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:53.759
When we use a framework or an agenda, it's about our preconceptions on what the group needs.
00:11:53.919 --> 00:12:03.519
So everything that we have prepared beforehand, what you call in the book, all our biases, prejudices, insecurities.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:13.679
And once we step into the in the room and we are confronted with the group, where it has to be about the group and no longer about our previous assumptions.
00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:19.200
Two days ago I had a workshop and I as the clients always want, I made an agenda.
00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:28.240
Um I think what's very important maybe at this point to say so in the a lot of the things in in the book can probably be interpreted as this is how I do it.
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.279
But that's not that's not what the book is about.
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:45.679
The book is about these are discoveries that I've made when I looked at why I have reactions to certain things, why I struggle to do certain things or let go of certain things, and it's really the the foundation why what my work builds on.
00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:51.679
So when I when I'm very I'm very critical of agendas in the book, as you as you mentioned, but that doesn't mean I don't do agendas.
00:12:52.080 --> 00:13:00.320
And because I understand that it's not but but I I wanted to find out what's my issue with agendas, and that's also why it gets a lot of space, because I clearly have lots of issues with agendas.
00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:01.600
But back to that workshop.
00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:11.440
I made an agenda and I had a had a plan, and then the the and that of course we get always this information from the clients beforehand, and as much as I try to keep that limited, as you know, uh the it always comes.
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:19.919
And there was a lot of uh concern that the you know very introvert group and and uh people have very bad experiences with previous team days and stuff like that.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:28.000
So of course I let and and that influences us as much as we want to and as much experience experience as we have, we've heard this many times, still gets through somehow.
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:32.240
Also depends on which form and shape you're in, and it got a bit through to me this time.
00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:35.440
So I'm like, okay, got a bit insecure about the original idea.
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:44.240
Although I know this was really a safe and exciting setup, uh, which I don't think there were too many risks, but somehow their words got through.
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.879
And then the day before I I talked to a colleague about it and uh was asked, so are you ready?
00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.320
And I'm like, well, honestly, I can't really say when I'm ready when I meet the group.
00:13:52.879 --> 00:14:05.039
And when I went there and I went back and forth if I should switch around some exercises and drop some or not, and then I came in and I introduced myself to the group, as I always do, and that's when I knew like I know how to go, right?
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:07.279
So the agenda wasn't so important anyway anymore.
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:13.279
But I met the group, I met the dynamics, I met their like their the how they met me, and that's when I knew how to go.
00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:21.759
But yeah, as you say, we have all these opinions and and worries and insecurities beforehand, and they only kind of dissolve or get worse when we meet the group.
00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:34.399
And what I hear in your um response is that you felt safe with the group, because you just mentioned that you need or you it's easy to hide behind a framework and agenda if we don't feel safe.
00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:54.639
What is it for you personally that makes you feel safe as a facilitator as you walk into a Yeah, but what makes me feel safe, and this is one of the crucial questions that I also pose to the readers in the book, is connection and connection in the form because for me there was a huge realization why I struggled so much with online facilitation for a long time, because I do not get the same sense of connection.
00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:58.240
So I'm I'm and we've worked together, so you've experienced this firsthand.
00:14:58.320 --> 00:14:59.840
I'm I'm an over-observer.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.919
So I I I just observe, right?
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:08.080
This is just how I approach groups, and I I in the minute details is where where I'm at home.
00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:12.080
And when I can do that and when I'm in a space, that's when I feel safe.
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:15.039
So I feel very safe in most spaces.
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:24.799
But what makes me really feel safe, and that's actually the kind of maybe the core element to all of the elements that make me feel safe, is that I have a a clear mandate.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:31.279
Because I I over I was not when I was younger, I was I was quite extrovert, extrovert when I went into groups.
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:41.440
This has really changed over the years, and now when I go to conferences and stuff, I'm always the one like wandering around and like not really engaged in any conversations, but of but of course observing and listening in and stuff.
00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:46.799
But when I facilitate, you could easily get the impression that I'm very extrovert.
00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:49.200
And in that role, I'm probably I probably am.
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.639
But that's because I I realize that's because I have a clear mandate.
00:15:52.799 --> 00:16:01.679
The relationship with me in the group is is somehow still evolving, but in some somehow it's also clarified in the sense that okay, I'm I'm part of this now, but temporary.
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:07.200
There's expectations that I will never find out, but they will they're still thrown at me, and I have a task to do here.
00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:09.679
So it's almost like I have permission to be here.
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.559
And that makes it easy and that makes me feel safe.
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:14.080
Sure, you're always challenged, right?
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:22.879
There's always someone in the group that challenges you, but but that's not so worrying because the moment I can observe, I have I have the tools and I have the means to handle that.
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.120
Yeah, this resonates a lot.
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.120
I am scrolling to the part on psychological safety.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:37.279
I think we could record an entire two hours episode on just your 26 items on psychological safety.
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.320
Facilitation is a temporary disruption.
00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.679
By default, it is a threat to psychological safety.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:44.879
Yeah, I believe that.
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:51.440
Going again to Monday now, since it's so fresh, the group got a lot closer together because I was there.
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:58.320
Because I was the the foreign element to that group, which automatically brought it a lot closer together.
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:11.039
Now I had a I had a specific role with this group, so I had also kind of the, you know, the I was introduced as the one leading through the team, and even when that word is already thrown out, you kind of got get the power dynamic in and on on all of that.
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:18.000
But people don't know what's happening because I didn't share an agenda, I shared a very cryptic one, but yeah, that's a threat.
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:18.559
Right?
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.400
And of course, psychological safety, and we've had these exchanges also over the years.
00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:28.000
I I think psychological safety is often reduced to a feeling in a situation or a feeling in an interaction.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:32.160
I think that that for me, having worked in crisis and conflict zones is bigger than that.
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:37.519
It's simply a sensation of how you are also in a space, how close you physically are to someone else.
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:48.480
And I believe that we as facilitators are often very foreign elements because we have agendas, because we have games planned, because we have tools, we have frameworks, and not everybody feels comfortable with that.
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:54.400
And already, if you go back to the concept and all if one person doesn't feel safe per default, you already have an issue, right?
00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:59.359
Also, that I think we can discuss a lot about, but but looking at the concept.
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.000
So for me, it's always important to remember that.
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:03.680
That that's that's why this is so important.
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:05.920
Why I also have this as a thesis in the book.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:12.799
It's it's I believe that, so I'm very aware when I go into a group that that might be the case.
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.000
It might actually not be the case, but I have to be aware of it.
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:22.240
And I often also make that explicit, saying I understand that that you know you don't know me, and I hope we get to know each other.
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:33.279
So I'm I'm I'm also someone that's very explicit about those things and that that I've really evolved over the years, but but we disrupt because it's not every day that there have facilitated events or facilitated sessions, unfortunately.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.079
Of course, many of us want that, but that's not the case.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.960
So it's it's it's out of the ordinary.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:42.160
And we're all if we take an out of the ordinary, we're all disrupted, right?
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.799
So and that does something with us in terms of uncertainty.
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:51.839
Yeah, because by um I think for many the way we communicate in workshops is alien.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:58.799
Yes, not not interrupting, waiting until it's our turn, writing down, being in small groups.
00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:05.200
So another concept that uh you speak a lot about in the book is authority and power.
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:28.160
And the way you described your approach to psychological safety in relation to facilitation reminded me of authority and power because you're walking in as a facilitator with the agenda and a plan, even though you might disregard the plan, but it means you have more power because you have less uncertainty.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:30.480
So you're way more confident, right?
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.319
Because for you the uncertainty is not as high as for the people that are there.
00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:39.039
And I very quickly always make that flip that switch a bit.
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:43.359
So, for example, what I did in this workshop now, I made an assumption quiz, right?
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:50.799
So I have this thing where at the beginning I draw myself and and then I wrote a f write a few facts about myself, and then I have like five things that are not revealed.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:52.000
What did I have this time?
00:19:52.160 --> 00:20:02.880
Political, where do I stand on a political spectrum, what are my ber religious beliefs, my guilty pleasure, my age, and can't remember what the fifth or fifth one was, music or something like that.
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:04.960
And then they do a quiz about it, right?
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:06.960
And that can be very vulnerable.
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:13.359
I've had other categories as well, but I what I want to show them then is I'm not I'm not the one, I'm not the game master here.
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:22.799
I'm I'm also in this, and I'm equally vulnerable here, and I'm equally willing to take also the step into that because they said, you know, are you not gonna be offended?
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.079
I'm like, no, because you carry that assumption anyway, so how can I be offended?
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:28.480
That's just about making it explicit, right?
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:45.519
So it's uh so for me that there are a lot of these um power and authority, of course, is for someone who looks like me and comes from a place like me is very important because though I worked the majority of my career in places where I was the white guy from the rich country, right?
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:47.200
And man on top of it.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:21:04.880
So I had to deal a lot and spend a lot of time reflecting on my not on how I'm being perceived, on on my behavior, um, because there's also the danger to overcompensate certain certain stereotypes or assumptions that you have that others have about you.
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:14.559
So there's also because there's one one element in the book where I where which was very interesting when I did it, is this whole, how do I perceive myself and how do I think others perceive me?
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:17.039
And that was an exercise that I did often.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:22.799
I repeated it often throughout my career and often after workshops because it it's just it's revealing, right?
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:28.960
And it can be triggered by so many things like behavior, uh speech, simply the words we we're using, right?
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:32.880
I mean, we can sound very intellectual or we can sound very vulgar in the same moment.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:38.799
So it doesn't and and that's all the power we have, but we're often not aware that that all of that is power.
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:46.240
There was one part in the book, and I um I will not try to find the sentence right now because every minute is too uh precious.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:55.519
It was something along the lines of one of the biggest threats of uh or dangers of a facilitator is the desire to be liked by the group.
00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:10.319
And from what you just shared, it sounds like the The moment we assume or acknowledge that they have all these judgments implicitly that they don't articulate.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:17.279
If we just learn to live with that as a default, they don't like us, then we cannot feel offended, whatever happens.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.559
Because as you say, it's only the matter of making what's there already explicit.
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:34.559
Yeah, if if somebody thinks I'm on the far right political spectrum, I am uh ultra-conservative Catholic because I come from Austria naturally, and I'm 50 years old, all of which are wrong.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.599
I can't change that because that person carries that belief anyway.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.640
I can only change it when I know and when we talk about it.
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:50.480
But what is also interesting with the being liked, because I I also read a book in this book, first I thought the centerpiece of my thinking is going to be around psychological safety, but it wasn't.
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:54.240
It turned actually out to be belonging.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:58.160
The need, the I think it's our most fundamental need that we have.
00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:01.839
Sure, you can always say survival, but at the same time, I think we can survive without belonging.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:06.720
So it's it's a bit, I think belonging is something that really drives us way more than we we acknowledge.
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:10.240
And the problem is that we mistake belonging for being liked.
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.359
And those are not necessary for me, those are not necessarily linked.
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:16.640
I can still be part of a group and not be liked by everybody.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.319
But I can still identify and they can accept me as part of the group, but we don't have to be best friends.
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:30.559
So once you let go of the idea that everybody has to like me, you also create warm way more space for you to take them or guide them outside their comfort zone.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:42.880
It's way more difficult to be confrontational and to be to be honest and to be to maybe push them a little bit when you have a very likable and close and almost like a friendship-like relationship with participants.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.319
We all know that it's difficult to tell our friends the truth sometimes, right?
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:54.319
And so the closer you get, the more difficult you sometimes might be ending up in a situation where you can't do the things that that might be necessary in a situation.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:09.359
So I think it's just important again to reflect like how important is it for me to be liked, or do I supplement being liked with things like belonging, connection, and and where does it really like where are the differences for me and how how does that show up in my work?
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:14.160
Yeah, and I think that's such a confronting one.
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:32.880
I think that me included, so when I started reflecting on it, how important is it for me to be liked and how far am I willing to push the group, challenge the group, even if it would mean that they didn't like me anymore?
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:46.079
I really had to pause and to be really honest towards myself, and I think I'm there's something to explore because it seems to be still important to me, and I can see the danger.
00:24:46.559 --> 00:25:07.920
And what I just while listening to you, I came up with is that there's um I'm thinking of a manager, a parent, and a clown, where all three have authority, have respect, and must not necessarily are not must not necessarily try to be liked.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:17.759
Yes, I mean I think those are great those are great examples because also we want to be liked, but then we also take ourselves the liberty to take sometimes decisions that are not popular.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:20.640
And that doesn't work together.
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:25.759
So we can always do that with a smile, but it will not be popular, at least not for everyone, anyway.
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:34.319
And I think what's interesting is, and there's this episode that I also share in the book, well, my episodes all stop at kind of the moment where I want the people to think what they would have done.
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:38.000
There's one episode where I lost lose it at the group, right?
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.279
At the at the end of it, and I really like I I completely lose it.
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:43.519
And that that group didn't like me anymore.
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:52.400
There was this, I wouldn't say the connection was completely broken, but the connection was purely reduced to a functional relationship.
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.400
So we still have this half day, and we're gonna just do that.
00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:03.039
And in many ways, this was great because that last two-thirds of a day or whatever we had, that's when the work got done.
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.039
That's when the conversations were honest.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.759
I stepped way over the line, there's no question about this.
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:10.880
But I was also, I felt I was pushed by the leadership into that.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:12.799
I was I was abandoned by the leadership, right?
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:13.599
And and all of that.
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.559
So, but I spoke, I said what nobody else said.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:21.920
And of course I made myself popular, but again, it brought the group closer together and the topics were on the table.
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:26.720
So I took one for the team in that sense, even though I wasn't even part of the team as such.
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.920
But what happened afterwards was they that the respect was still there.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:41.680
So they respected me in the sense of that they listened to what what I asked them to do, and there was no like obvious rebellion or anything, but there was no like warm goodbyes, or uh I was not even called, I wasn't called back or anything.
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:51.920
I mean, that that was clear, but but they the work got done, and I think they made a lot more progress in that last half day, a bit more than that, than they did in the one and a half days before that.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:56.000
I um on this story in the book, and I love these stories.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:59.680
Um no, I love and I hate them because they are such cliffhangers.
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.279
I'm like, no, you cannot keep don't let me hang in there.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:05.519
I want to know what happened next.
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:09.119
Which is pretty much how you facilitate as well.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:12.319
So I I just love the consistency of your book.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:23.599
So one note that I wrote under this uh story to ask you in this podcast is uh what would you do differently with the knowledge you have today in that same situation?
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:40.319
I did really did a very honest reflection and that in a way I wouldn't say this story followed me until when I wrote it in the book, but it followed me a few years after that because I couldn't make up my mind whether this was I would still stand by what I did in that sense, because in that moment that's what I felt.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:43.920
But of course, it wasn't necessarily what I would say professional or anything.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:45.200
Might look different now.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:47.200
A few years ago, I would have said like it's not professional.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.799
Would you like to summarize it for those who haven't read your book yet?
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:53.920
So um so what happened was there was a two-day workshop.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:28:01.440
Uh we were called in the uh was the whole organization, not a very big one, about 50, not even 40, 40, 50 people, something like that.
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:12.559
I was doing it with a with a junior colleague, and we were asked to facilitate basically uh conversations around the topics that came out as key topics in that that that organizational survey that they did.
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:21.039
The problem was that there was one topic that came really, really high on on all or low in all the ratings, which was the appreciation.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.480
And people just didn't feel appreciated by the leadership.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.599
Now we explained the way I explained the way I we work.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:28.799
You know how I work, right?
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:36.000
I I said, like, I mean, we can do we can take this, but I want to have the buy-in of the team that these are the topics that we want to work with.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.640
And so we started off that day that the leadership was on board with with the plan that we had made.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.480
Uh, we started off with that's for example how I use the one, two, for all, right?
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:52.319
I use it for collecting topics, and then kind of at the end we had like I think five topics that the people wanted to work with over these one and a half days.
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:54.160
None of them was appreciation.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:29:00.319
And I made it very clear at the beginning of the day, like, you know, whenever there's something you're not happy with, like please let us know.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:01.440
Write us a note, you know.
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.359
I could feel there was no very little psychological safety in that in that team to begin with.
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:06.240
But we followed, right?
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:10.160
Yeah, they they kept saying like everything is fine, and I mean I trusted, I didn't trust my God enough.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:13.039
That's one thing I would do different because it wasn't fine.
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:14.240
And I saw that.
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.839
But I also, and this is of course something I would do very differently.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.960
I just before this workshop, not long before that, I had worked with a new method that I had learned.
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:27.680
Uh speaking of frameworks and methods, and I thought that was a great method to use for this team.
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:35.759
I learned that that that method requires way more psychological safety, it requires cultural aspects, that culture where I was there when present.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.799
So, in short, that first day didn't go particularly well.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:41.440
But at the end of the day, everybody said it was a great day.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:52.160
People were happy, the leader was happy, and they were having like uh drinks at the end of the day, and I was with my colleague, we were we were having dinner, and I said to her, like, I I I I don't I there's something off.
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:53.200
Don't trust this.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.319
But we've given them five times the chance, you know how you justify it for yourself.
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.559
But I said to the leader, to to the CEO, and I said, like, please ask around.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.400
Okay, and then the call came at quarter to 10 in the evening.
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:05.759
It's a catastrophe.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:06.640
People hate it.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:09.039
We're not even discussing anything we should be discussing.
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:14.640
So it was a completely different feedback than they gave me to my face, right?
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:20.079
And they were basically saying, like, it's a horrible hire and it's like what a what a failed investment and all those things.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:26.160
So and and the leadership kind of went on their side, even though she told me like an hour before how great how happy she was.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:34.720
And the next day I opened up again, and then this feedback came directly to me, and I had from the group and and also very harsh.
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:47.119
And then I told them, I'm gonna step out of my facilitator mandate for a while, and I wanted to actually really just calm share observations, but I was getting very emotional, and I I my my colleague called it a thunder speech.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:54.799
Don't know how long I spoke, but I spoke basically and said, like, you know, you you I I take everything that's related to the process, we take back seriously.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:58.000
Whatever is the content, that's yours, yours to fix.
00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:04.079
So and I said that of course a lot harsher, more direct, and with a couple of square words maybe mixed in.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:06.960
So, what would you do differently?
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:12.640
What I would do differently is first of all, I was very this would this was almost like a was too arrogant.
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:37.359
I was way more concerned about my methods than really like, okay, just you know, um, maybe this is not your playing field, maybe just do do it simple and and make it easier for the group to actually cut forward, knowing that they have also a little psychological safety, a couple of misjudgments along the way, and trusting my God, like uh, which was very clearly already screaming after half a day, like this isn't going anywhere.
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:48.240
So finding and also connecting not only to leadership but more to the people during the session, because I was very colored by the leaders who who basically behaved exactly like the people criticized.
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.519
They were were not honest in that sense.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:53.599
So these are the things I would do differently.
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:58.400
Funda speech, that's I think the story is also called just human or only human or whatever.
00:31:58.559 --> 00:31:59.839
I think that I stand by that.
00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:01.279
It happened, taught me a lot.
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:09.039
People got stuff done afterwards, so maybe it was maybe good for something, but of course, maybe it finds a spot in your book because it was probably not very professional.
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:12.319
Thank you for sharing that.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:34.160
What somehow came to my mind because so what we talked before, this anecdote, is the importance to be liked by group um and how difficult it is to step into the space where to acknowledge that okay, the group doesn't like us, they might still respect us or see an authority in us, and we have to fulfill this role.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:36.880
And I was thinking, okay, how can I combine that?
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:44.799
How can I link this with what I like to believe is that as a facilitator I have to fall in love with the group.
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:48.960
And then actually then I realized that it makes perfect sense.
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:51.359
And it's a very unconditional love.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:01.680
Okay, you don't you don't have to like like me back or love me back, but I'm still there in service to the group, and we'll speak about that.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:06.160
And it also came up with what many say about their families.
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.799
I love them, although I don't like them very much.
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:09.359
Yeah.
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:17.599
What is also an interesting part here, and and that is, I think comes out also uh in my book here and there, is that I have a issue with the concept of group.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:25.119
I think it's an overused umbrella term because it takes away the nuances that I think are so essential for our work.
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:33.680
Because when you say like you want to fall in love with the group, I think we could we could do a dissection, what what you actually fall in love with when you fall in love with the individuals.
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:42.720
And and and the interplay or that the you know, so it's it's kind of the the secret lies in the nuances there, and and and I I think this is also what makes our profession so beautiful.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:49.519
Thank you for pointing that out, because I actually realized that I do not want to fall in love with a group.
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:52.640
I do want to fall in love with every individual of the group.
00:33:52.960 --> 00:34:04.319
Because I think when I fall in love with a group, then there's a sort of expectation and for almost harmony, and there's an expectation of how the group is supposed to function together.
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:22.719
When I fall in love with every individual, then I'm curious about there, and even if they are air quotes, the difficult people, I love them because they play a crucial role and they're contributing and revealing something about the group that I would not see otherwise.
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:24.320
I think that that distinction, right?
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:40.239
So this is also something where very at the beginning, when I started writing this book, this was one of the first triggers that I kept in increasingly feeling when I read contributions on LinkedIn and and and when I heard like these general advices, like uh, you know, it's all in the group or the wisdom is in the group.
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:49.760
And yeah, I I I see what people are trying to say, but I also think it's it takes away the beauty of why we do this, which is the individualism, which is the interplay.
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:56.000
Because I know that people try to describe it with that term, but at the same time, there I think there are a lot of fallacies because of that term.
00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:04.000
I think we we we making things seem too easy while they are actually more way more complicated, like the example that you just brought, right?
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:10.000
It's the every individual contributes, and every individual contributes to the dynamics that are happening.
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:16.159
The difficult one, verdict commas, the introvert who doesn't say much, the extrovert who says something all the time, right?
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:20.960
So they're all contributing, but what the interplay is what makes this interesting for us.
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:25.920
Because if they were all in need, just sitting there alone by themselves, we wouldn't be able to do much.
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:31.360
But because we see them reacting to each other, we see them taking the roles, we see them switching roles and so on.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:33.280
This is where where the beauty lies.
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:41.119
And this is also why I think why I try to always refer to the participants rather and avoid the the group as a term.
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:49.280
Without striving for active resistance from the participants, you won't design the most memorable experience.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:36:08.800
I I think at another stage in the book it says that I believe that when the moment we have no resistance, or if we don't have any resistance, or anybody just and r by resistance I don't necessarily mean that they're pushing back, but like that can be just reactions, or it can be like a sense of discomfort or any any other reaction that is a bit against like that, yay, let's do this, right?
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:12.079
I believe we're not moving in a zone that is uncomfortable.
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:28.559
And I believe that facilitation for it to have an impact, and I'm not even speaking about transformation at this stage, for but for it to have an impact, be memorable, and for people to kind of take something with it afterwards, they need to remember it, they need to have an emotional engagement and positively can that can happen.
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:31.039
But also, I speak about balance a lot.
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:37.760
If it's only positive, it would be nice, goes in the memory books, and fine, we refer to that with so much fun, and that's it.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:54.800
But if we want to take something with it, if we want to really say what we or do what we we claim we do, like we're gonna kind of push transformation or guide transformation or stimulate it or invite to, or whatever your word we use, I think we need that resistance for us is an indicator where the boundaries are.
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:58.559
So my boundaries are very, very different from yours, right?
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:03.760
So I might feel like I feel super comfortable with one of super uncomfortable with one-on-one check-ins.
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:05.199
I hate one-on-one check-ins.
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:06.800
This is also why I don't do them, right?
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.920
Because they for me, they're very they're exposing me.
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:11.199
I cannot hide anywhere, right?
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:14.400
And as an introvert, I'm like, okay, now I'm confronted and yeah, whatever.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.159
Others love them, right?
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:18.079
But that's for example a boundary.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:25.679
And if I can get that out of a participant in a way that they show me this boundary, then I can design things around it.
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:30.079
I can say, like, okay, now now the group needs again being back inside those boundaries.
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:33.360
So we're guiding them back inside, calming a bit down.
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:35.199
Now it's time to push them a bit out again.
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:40.480
So for me, this is information that I need to be able to design the most memory experience for them.
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:42.079
Thank you.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:43.039
It's interesting.
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.199
I hear it a lot, the 101s.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:48.960
So they're it's as you say, some hate hate them, some love them.
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:51.679
In my workshop, I always start with a turn to your neighbor.
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:52.400
I said, sorry.
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:53.679
Apologies.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:00.960
So if a participant then has the courage to say, oh, 101, can you put me in the group of three?
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:02.400
Can we do it differently?
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:04.239
How do you react to these kind of things?
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:05.039
I do it.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:14.880
But because I also at the beginning of every workshop I do, I create a reference point, and that reference point is that in my workshops, everything is is uh is optional.
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:17.360
I don't believe in in forced participation.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:26.559
I I don't believe in putting people on the spot, I don't believe in in calling on people because what I aim for is that people find their own ways of contributing.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:28.880
Yes, I can facilitate, that's also the job, right?
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:34.000
I can give them different avenues for for how to go about it, but they have to cross cross the bridge.
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:38.079
And in that you that reference point, when it comes relevant, I also say this.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:44.400
When I know when I know I do something that can be very challenging or that I feel is very challenging, sometimes it's just me, right?
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:47.360
Sometimes it's just my own assumptions, I add it on.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:48.800
Remember, you know, this is optional.
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:55.119
But what I also observe, simply saying that makes people safer because they know they have a choice, right?
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:58.880
And what um this is also again from from my other book where where I wrote about this.
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:02.880
What we don't what we don't like is not having a choice or the feeling we don't have a choice.
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:05.119
And by that I give them a choice.
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:07.519
And there's very few times.
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:19.679
I still I think I can still count them on one hand where participants said they opt out of things that that they did, because sometimes they even said afterwards, like simply the fact that I could it could be optional made me already feel better.
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:25.760
Yeah, because then it makes it safer to try if we know that we can still say, Oh, I tried it, no need more.
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:29.679
And it also it also shows I'm not imposing something on them, right?
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:33.840
And it's like, yeah, sure, you can I mean this is there's also communication things, right?
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:41.440
You can communicate it in a way that that it sounds like you're imposing it, but but that's there's a lot of our own assumption flying around in that as well.
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:46.159
Yeah, in the end, it um shows almost the highest level of respect.
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:50.239
Respect on the on the ownership and responsibility for them.
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:58.320
So we respect them enough to trust that they can take their own decisions, even if they're opposed to our instructions.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:39:59.599
Yeah.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:03.280
There are no good or bad facilitators.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:07.199
They are facilitators whose approach we like and those we do not.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:19.679
I I think I I have a very strong aversion against good and bad, and right and wrong as concepts, because for me they're highly subjective.
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:31.119
And I think when it comes to such an individual craft art uh practice as facilitation, is because we're showing up as individuals, which are very different.
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:32.960
We have very different approaches, right?
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:37.119
You do check-ins or return to your neighbors, I do the absolute opposite.
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:40.880
Whether this is good or bad, it's not for us to judge, right?
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:46.159
I can only anyway judge it when I'm a participant, not when I'm another facilitator, but it's a completely different topic.
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:50.880
But it's also then, it can turn out in retrospect that that didn't work for the group.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:52.880
Did it make it bad facilitation?
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:55.840
Well, because the question is what did you what did you do afterwards?
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.599
Um, how did you handle the situation?
00:40:57.760 --> 00:40:59.119
How did you move forward?
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:09.840
And bad facilitation in that sense can be a bad day, but it cannot be a general, I don't think it's a general judgment that's fair, because we're not we're not the ones facilitating, right?
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:13.440
And I see that very often, like our bad facilitators do this and this and this.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:15.039
That's your opinion.
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:19.679
My opinion is not that the bad facilitator does this and this and this, right?
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:25.039
Because maybe in one workshop, what that bad facilitator does is actually exactly what's needed.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:36.159
So there are these generalizations that I'm trying to work against here, and and and I think it's what I'm underlining is that it's subjective and good and bad are really not general categories as they're often put out there.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:58.239
Although I agree with the binary judgment of good and bad, and how careful we have to be with it, I still see the danger or a risk in creating a space that is not intentionally held, where there is a lack of care, connection, curiosity.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.440
And then I wonder maybe it is exactly what the group needs.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:03.920
This can be pure coincidence.
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:21.280
And there is a difference between walking into the space without an agenda, without a framework, being ready for emergence, and walking into a space with total judgment, overconfidence that we don't need to prepare.
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:24.960
And again, I I would just move away from the categories good and bad.
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.239
I would just, as I said, like you don't like these things.
00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:31.119
As a participant, they might even go so far, yeah, this was bad for me.
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:33.039
I didn't like that, I was a bad facilitator.
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:38.320
But then again, we don't know the backstory of the facilitators very often, we don't know what they're briefed with.
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:45.360
So there's there's so many factors that come into this, which I find where I find that when we use these terms, it's almost too limiting.
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:50.239
I have I've been a bad facilitator for my own like many times in my career.
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.119
Others didn't agree, some did agree, right?
00:42:53.199 --> 00:43:05.840
So it's it's this, it's again, it's so colored by our individual, because at the same time, turn it around and say like being categorized as a good facilitator, which you have been often, uh which I have also had the privilege to be categorized at.
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:11.199
I find that very tricky because I I don't know if I'm gonna be a good facilitator in my next facilitation, right?
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:22.239
So it's almost like uh you you you you create an expectation that this is this is such a great facilitator, and then like okay, I'm coming into this group and it really doesn't work.
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:24.239
Does that make me a worse facilitator or not?
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:35.519
So you know the these elements, so that's why I think it's it's just a bit more of dissecting people, so like we are doing right now into what what is it that I put into this these uh categories, yeah.
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:49.920
And what comes up for me is uh one very one very painful memory that will I will share in a second, where I've clearly been a bad facilitator for the group, and maybe myself.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:54.480
And that there's so many nuances to what facilitation is.
00:43:55.119 --> 00:44:06.400
I think in one of your I don't know whether it was a LinkedIn post or or in the book that uh Um everyone has facilitated at some point in their life or has been a facilitator at some point in their life.
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:10.960
And not every facilitation happens in a workshop or meeting.
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:19.039
So then the good or bad depends on the group, the context, the mandate.
00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:36.639
Adding one thing to that, which is always an interesting discussion, and I had a lot of resistance when I when I wrote about that a while back on LinkedIn, that I believe when we don't achieve the results or or or whatever we set out to do in a workshop doesn't make it bad, bad facilitation, right?
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:49.679
Because something could have happened in that room that needed to be handled, that we needed to take care of in terms of dynamics, which made that goal or the goals anyway, irrelevant, not only irrelevant, but also not achievable anymore.
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.719
But we as facilitators had to handle the situation in the room.
00:44:52.880 --> 00:45:03.039
And and I see a lot of our peers who who make their success dependent on how the session and there I'm fundamentally different.
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:08.559
Uh, because I my view goes on the success lies in how I handled the group dynamic.
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:11.440
Sure, this is always the if this comes out, it's great.
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:18.000
But if I understand as a facilitator, there's another priority here because I can also guide a group to that result without them having any safety.
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:20.320
This is the up the downside to it.
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:26.800
So for me, there's this is my priority lies with the dynamics that happen in the group rather than the result.
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.159
And I'm I'm ready to justify that also to then the people who paid me.
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:33.599
But I I know that the there's a lot of people who who do suit differently.
00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:39.440
So I'm I'm curious if if they pick up my book, how they will reflect on mental models that lie underneath this.
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.639
I think listening to you, what came up for me is there are Wookiee mistakes.
00:45:44.880 --> 00:46:01.039
That okay, a group is in a conversation, there's something that emerges, and an experienced facilitator would immediately catch that and dig deeper, while a beginner facilitator might overlook that and continue with the process.
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:05.840
That's why I think it's good for beginning facilitators to have this process and framework.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:10.000
Because worst case, they just achieve whatever needs to be achieved.
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:23.519
But for me, what makes and I will use the word bad facilitation is if we put if the facilitator puts their own interest and agenda before the one of the group.
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:26.079
Going back to the example I shared earlier, right?
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:32.639
I do I I realized that this was part of the issue, that that that two-day thing that went wrong chat about earlier.
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:38.880
That I had my own hidden agenda that I wasn't aware of, and that interfered with me really paying enough attention to the group.
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:40.239
Now I wasn't alone, right?
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:51.519
I had a peer, but but she was she was a junior and she did not challenge me exactly on that because it wasn't her specialty to be a facilitator, so she didn't kind of really push me on that either.
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:56.639
Now I still tried to handle what happened in the room, but I wasn't aware.
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:07.360
And this is, I think, the the difference between maybe deliberately bad uh or deliberately something that we're not liking, or the blind spots because I wasn't aware of having my own agenda.
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:09.519
For me, this was like, no, but this, you know, this should work.
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.920
And I really I did this with the good intent of be doing the best for the group and not and so on.
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:24.880
No, if I'm really honest, I just wanted to test that model that I was so in love with and uh that that method, and I was so in love with it, and it's great, and we're just gonna push it because it's new and they certainly haven't done it, and and all those things, right?
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:28.480
So I just wanted to put on a show part of me anyway.
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:31.599
And I wasn't aware of it, I was only aware of it in retrospect.
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:42.719
And this is also why I was so hurt when I got that negative feedback, because my the part I was aware of was like, but you know, we worked in your interest and and you know, we gave you all the chances and and blah blah blah.
00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:48.079
And while the other part was saying, like, they didn't like it, how they could that could they not like it?
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:49.760
This was something they had never done before, right?
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:51.840
So so the ego part in it.
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:54.960
So they would definitely say this was bad facilitation, sure.
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:56.400
Was it bad facilitation?
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:58.159
Would I charge it as bad facilitation?
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:01.840
No, I still had to handle that that thing when I woke up the next day, right?
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:05.440
But but was it a focused facilitation?
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:10.400
Was I in it for really the group, or was I more in it for me, like you said, your own agenda?
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:19.119
That becomes a bit tricky to answer, and I think the honest answer would be that it was at least 50-50 with a bit of a tip to to me on the first day anyway.
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:20.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:25.679
And I think that's another argument against the frameworks, against air quotes.
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:28.000
So to be treated with care.
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:56.800
If we fall in love and I I've been there, I fell in love with my frameworks and with my activities and the workshop that I referred to earlier, where clearly there was a misalignment between my understanding of what facilitation is and the groups, and I came with a beautiful idea of what I will do with the group and misread and and I always thought I'll just this one activity and then they will get it.
00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:14.320
So I was in the I had the mindset, they will get it at some point, instead of oh, meeting them where they are, cliche, cliche, and saying, okay, so how do I have to change or how do I have to adjust to give them really what they what they need in this moment?
00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:21.679
It's an experience thing, as you said before, but but it's also it for me it had a lot to do with with getting to know myself.
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:27.280
And when you said earlier about the rookie mistake, there's another I've I've also seen non-rookies do that a lot.
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:29.679
And they have different reasons for it.
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:48.639
Rookies might be like they might overlook it, or they might not be, might not really know what to do in the situation, a little bit more experienced to do it, they try to steer away from whatever uh comes up because of either that's a trigger for them, or they've met bad experiences, maybe as a rookie in a similar situation.
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:59.360
So there's a lot of things that that our own history that plays into why we steer around it, or we why we try to, for example, when arguments get heated, we cut them off, right?
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:05.679
And this is something that that is is not easy to not cut it off or to know when to cut it off.
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:07.440
Maybe that I should say it like that.
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:14.000
But that's that can be because of our own relationships to arguments or even childhood traumas, right?
00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:22.480
So, I mean, everything plays into how we show up, which is also why it's so important to take that look in the mirror and say, like, okay, this is how this is my relationship to heated arguments.
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:29.199
I don't like when any anybody swears because of this and this and this, because there's lots, lots to discover.
00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:46.880
And I discovered a lot of things that are not in the book about my own, about my own journey and and how what I have experienced from when I was very little till uh till now, how how that actually really affects how I show up and how that can impact me on any day when I work with a group.
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:48.079
Yeah.
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:56.480
There was one thing that really I had to put your book aside for a moment to reflect on it.
00:50:57.039 --> 00:50:57.920
Let me find it.
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:02.719
And it's something that you also come back to quite a few times.
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:05.840
The most vulnerable person in the room.
00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:10.079
And so you have these prompts in the book for self-reflection.
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:12.880
And one of it is here we go.
00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:19.840
Note down how you determine who is the most vulnerable in the group and where you learn to do it that way.
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:23.599
And I've never th I've never thought about that.
00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:34.159
And suddenly it was as if there was a kind of what you call these huge lighters in a in a stadium that was on my blind spot.
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:44.880
Because I always somehow it's one of those things where I believe everyone must have the same assumption about who a vulnerable person is as I do.
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:55.840
And so I I went back to my family experiences, thinking that the most vulnerable person is um the quiet one.
00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:02.320
And then suddenly I asked myself, what if the most vulnerable person was actually the most outspoken one?
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:11.280
And it made me change how I look at my family suddenly, and also questioned how I would what would be the impact on how I treat groups.
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:12.320
Thank you for sharing that.
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:25.360
I mean, the the there is for me, this was a lot of realization because I had also here very strong reactions to when I read about we're doing this for the most vulnerable, and again, it becomes almost like this this umbrella term.
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:26.719
Like, what does it mean?
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:29.119
Like uh we are vulnerable as facilitators.
00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:34.639
Everybody's um everybody's vulnerable in their own sense, but we try to kind of look for the most vulnerable.
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:38.159
First of all, I find that categorization very difficult, right?
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:44.559
Because we are it, I think we're we're we're claiming power that is not necessarily part of our mandate.
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:45.920
That's at least what I think.
00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:51.679
But it's also at the same time, we cannot, as much as we try, we cannot get rid of our biases.
00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:57.760
Because what's the what's the consequence if we if we don't look at our bias, we have to look the other way.
00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:05.920
So it doesn't become more right or just if we let go of our biases, because for us, these people are the most vulnerable, whoever, whoever it is, right?
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:08.480
Whatever categories we apply to that or criteria.
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.840
And if we let go of them, how can we then determine who is the most vulnerable?
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:16.639
So we kind of we we we lose a little bit our our anchor because we also need that, maybe.
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:21.360
But also here, again, it's very, very important, I think, to be aware of it.
00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:24.239
What does it mean for us to be the most vulnerable?
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:34.559
I lead a lot, I le I read a lot of posts around that that topic, and uh and for me from the outset, there's often a lot of connections to the people who write it with the group that they describe as the most vulnerable.
00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:37.360
Some of them I also know about personally, so I know the backstories, right?
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:38.960
So I can see these connections.
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:42.960
And it becomes very difficult because I also don't want to challenge people on that, right?
00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:44.320
Are they the most vulnerable or not?
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:45.920
Maybe they are, maybe they're not.
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:54.719
But if you let go of finding the most vulnerable and just have a starting point in saying, like, everybody's vulnerable, I just need to find out how it completely changes.
00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:59.840
It changes something because you all of a sudden you see everybody, you don't see like this against that.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:05.840
You see everybody contributes here, and where is their vulnerability and how are they showing it?
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:10.639
Because extroverts, as you say, can easily say, Oh, but they're not they're not vulnerable.
00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:17.199
I know very well from my work how vulnerable I can make extroverts in just 10 seconds.
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:19.119
So Yeah, yeah.
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:29.360
I um I love that what what came to my mind uh is the distinction between two questions, how vulnerable are you, as opposed to how are you vulnerable?
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:30.960
Like that.
00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:32.400
Two thoughts crossed my mind.
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:47.840
One is maybe you need a warning for your book that it's not for beginner facilitator, because it can be very destabilizing, questioning too early all the scaffolding and not knowing what to remove and what to replace it by.
00:54:48.320 --> 00:55:04.960
And the vulnerability one I think is a tough one because to what extent is the outspokenness, the aggressiveness just another form of vulnerability of masking of the herd tiger or the dog that barks but might not bite.
00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:16.960
And then on the opposite side, and I think that's my family story, kind of seeing it suddenly, is the most quiet person being actually the most stoic, not vulnerable at all.
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:18.480
You do your shit.
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:20.559
I cannot be bothered.
00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:36.000
Which has nothing to do with vulnerability, but rather the opposite with strength that we often overlook because we're projecting our interpretation, our biases on this person who might look air quotes vulnerable for whatever measures we have.
00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:46.559
The irony with that topic is to build on what you've just said is that by empowering or trying to empower people or making people less vulnerable, maybe that I should or help them to get less vulnerable.
00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:48.000
This is probably how I put it.
00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:49.840
We have to make others more vulnerable.
00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:51.760
So it's it's by default.
00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:57.440
It doesn't, it doesn't mean that we can all empower everybody because that then does this the situation keeps stable, right?
00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:11.440
So you have to, and often as facilitators, we subconsciously, or basically because of our assumptions, try to flip what makes them safe or maybe less vulnerable or feel less vulnerable into something way more vulnerable.
00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:18.639
If we shut an extrovert up, maybe they're all of a sudden way more vulnerable than they were when they could speak, and vice versa with introverts, right?
00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:23.199
So this is also why I said earlier like people need to find their own ways out.
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:28.400
I lay the gateways in my work, and if they cross the bridge, then they cross the bridge.
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:31.360
If they want to be vulnerable, they will be vulnerable, right?
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:36.400
But there's also these two different categories, maybe to as a as a final thought to this.
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:42.719
One is the assigned vulnerability, which we like, okay, we, you know, this person is a vulnerable category.
00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:46.880
Yeah, that can also be self-assigned, and that's often the labels that come in, right?
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:55.039
Now, again, I I know that I make myself now, of course, easily attacked because I'm categorized as a not so vulnerable person just simply by the way who I am.
00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:56.800
But nobody knows my backstory.
00:56:56.960 --> 00:57:00.480
You know my backstory, and my backstory is a highly vulnerable wall.
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:06.000
And and I grew up like deep working class, and I was trained to not be vulnerable.
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:08.719
We don't do this, we just put our heads down and then we move on.
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:17.360
We don't celebrate successes, we don't we we take all the failures on us, but we don't celebrate successes, and we never stick our head up because we're not worth it.
00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:22.559
So, and and that though that's a backpack that follows me still, right?
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:26.159
So it's we must never assume nobody's ever ever vulnerable.
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:29.199
And the second category is then the felt vulnerability.
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:30.800
Like what would what do I really feel?
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:34.559
And how does actually vulnerability translate into maybe something else?
00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:38.159
Bravery, daring, growth, right?
00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:44.159
So not to get stuck in like, okay, I feel highly vulnerable now, like I feel very vulnerable now when this book coming out.
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:51.039
But at the same time, I also feel an incredible sense of achievement because of the process it I I took me through.
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:51.679
Yeah.
00:57:52.159 --> 00:57:53.119
Thank you for sharing that.
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:55.760
And I hope that you can celebrate the success of this book.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:56.960
Certainly try.
00:57:57.199 --> 00:57:57.599
Yes.
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:08.800
It just reminds me how again of a bias of ours that by biologic programming, we feel more compassion to people who are like us.
00:58:09.039 --> 00:58:16.480
So the more we can project onto another person that they're like us, we see all of our vulnerabilities in them.
00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:26.079
And then obviously, one depending then on our personality type or facilitator type, want to save them, empower them, support them, ignore them.
00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:26.559
Yeah.
00:58:27.519 --> 00:58:30.400
It's almost like a proxy representation sometimes, right?
00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:41.599
Because we have had histories with people that remind us of someone we had to deal with in the past, and then become become we become proxies for the people that we say we want to support, right?
00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:43.760
But at the same time we fight our battle through them.
00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:44.480
So yeah.
00:58:44.960 --> 00:58:45.119
Yeah.
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:49.519
Humble curiosity requires you sharing your own perspectives.
00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:54.880
I believe that when that curiosity is about sharing and not just exploring.
00:58:55.039 --> 00:59:04.800
Because and this is of course heavily influenced by my indigenous uh connections, because when I write in the beginning of the book that I invite to a yarn, which is what we're doing now, right?
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:08.159
It's really a conversation where where we where we are just curious.
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:17.360
So I'm I'm I'm sitting here and I'm very curious how you read my book, not not what you think about it, but what you discovered in your journey about my book.
00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:26.159
But I also I can do that, and I can I can do that without sharing anything that I did or I ex-I explored and just listened to you, but that creates an imbalance between us.
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:32.079
And I think it's not humble anymore because I'm not putting myself also out there and share my things.
00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:36.159
And that's what the so the sharing of my story is, the humility part.
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:44.639
And I think sharing stories makes also curious because you want to hear more about the story, but it also is now I've shared my stories, I would love to hear yours.
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:48.559
So I think there's a lot of these dynamics to come through this conversation.
00:59:48.719 --> 00:59:56.559
And I think as facilitators, we sadly, I know I know many who do it, but I also know many who who keep it strictly split.
00:59:56.639 --> 01:00:03.119
Like I'm a facilitator here now for this time that I'm with you, and then I'm a private person somewhere else.
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:06.079
And for me, that's not I don't make that distinction.
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:12.239
I need them to see me as a also as me, because I expect to know a lot about them and to go deep with them.
01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:17.920
So if I don't role model it in some way, I can't just be curious because then it becomes invasive.
01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:32.239
And it's a fine line of sharing your own story and making the group curious about you without hijacking the process or the attention from the group on you.
01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:41.599
And also in the book you write that um there is no there cannot be any certification to facilitation.
01:00:41.840 --> 01:00:43.679
So where do you learn this balance?
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:47.440
I think you can just learn it by by experiencing it.
01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:53.360
What I hope to achieve with this book, and I know with that sentence I make a lot of enemies, I know that, but I've been outspoken about it before.
01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:58.639
I believe that the key quality of being able to know yourself is a start.
01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:06.400
Because once you know yourself, you know what you need, you know what you what makes you feel safe, you know your blind spots, you know, and and you will never be done with that, right?
01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:09.519
But but just the skill that also needs practice.
01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:11.920
Self-awareness is for me a skill that needs practice.
01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:17.280
And after every workshop, after every preparation for every workshop, this is what we should be doing.
01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:18.320
Just a short check-in.
01:01:18.559 --> 01:01:19.920
We can do that with somebody else, right?
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:22.639
But then again, there is a bit of a projection issue there as well.
01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:30.000
And I think with that's where it starts, because we will notice after a while, we will get better at noticing we're out of balance.
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:34.639
And then we will be easier, uh, we will be quicker to find out what put us out of balance.
01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:48.320
And the skill of like, when is it too much, when is it too little, that's something where you really you will have to learn how you feel comfortable because some people are great storytellers and you could you could listen to them 20 minutes without having the feeling that they hijack anything.
01:01:48.559 --> 01:01:52.320
Others you listen to two minutes and you feel like okay, this is not gonna go anywhere.
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:55.199
I don't want to hear anything about this anymore because it's just about them, right?
01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:57.519
So so everybody's unique here as well.
01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:11.360
And some people don't like to tell their stories, they just like to tell jokes or facts or make references, or so it's it's not really all about like exposing myself here completely, but it's showing up as more than just the head of the facilitator and as a person.
01:02:11.840 --> 01:02:16.000
Yeah, which they have many things to discuss about that.
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:21.280
The first association I had when I heard you speaking was of riding a bicycle.
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:30.000
You cannot explain or teach someone how to ride a bicycle, it's you have to sense the balance, and you fall down a few times.
01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:37.360
I can't teach it to you, you have to learn it.
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:37.599
Yeah.
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:40.960
And I think what you explained is exactly that.
01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:49.679
It's you have to sense it, and for everyone the balance is a little bit different, which then brings me to another word I wrote down.
01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:57.599
The words that um that kind of take more space in your book, I have the impression.
01:02:57.840 --> 01:02:59.280
Um authenticity.
01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:08.719
That depending on the personality of the facilitator, this 20 minutes talk will feel authentic and inspiring.
01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:13.440
And someone else, like you're hijacking the group.
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:15.760
What's your understanding of authenticity?
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:18.079
I wish I could find a simply explain.
01:03:18.159 --> 01:03:21.199
I think authenticity is not something that we decide individually.
01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:27.599
So I can always be authentic, but whether you see me authentic or not, I have very little influence over, right?
01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:29.039
And that's two dimensions.
01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:40.079
And I in the beginning I thought like these are the two dimensions that I think are important with place, but then I I thought I thought that wasn't it wasn't quite complete because there's always the context dimension.
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:47.760
So how we behave in a context, how we show up in a context, how we relate to certain unwritten rules that are in a context.
01:03:47.840 --> 01:04:02.079
Like when I reflect on on the facilitation experiences that I've had in all the different cultures where I was, if I was authentic, 100% authentic, I would have not gotten anywhere because because or like as it's often defined, right?
01:04:02.239 --> 01:04:14.400
Because I would have had very different beliefs, I wouldn't have been able to accept certain ways of doing that were standard practices and traditions in these cultures because it was going against my beliefs and what I really think.
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:24.639
I could also, for example, not have facilitated a couple of days after my mother died, which I had to do, uh, or father last year, where I had to run a workshop just a day after he died, right?
01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:32.639
And and I can show up as not at my best, and I was very explicit about it too, but I can still do my job and be authentic.
01:04:32.719 --> 01:04:34.320
So for me, it's not a fixed thing.
01:04:34.400 --> 01:04:37.599
So authentic authenticity is not something I'm authentic or I'm not.
01:04:38.239 --> 01:04:41.599
We have a we have a space in which we can move.
01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:50.000
And I think that's also something we will learn and we will we have to explore, like how far can I stretch so that I still feel I'm not giving up myself here.
01:04:50.079 --> 01:05:04.800
I'm true to kind of the emotions that I feel to the degree that's possible, I'm true to the context where I am, and I accept that maybe different opinions that people have about me without kind of giving up, like adapting too much to what they want to see.
01:05:05.039 --> 01:05:10.079
So this is the this is how I define it's just it's a space, it's kind of a spectrum almost like uh yeah.
01:05:10.400 --> 01:05:11.840
Yeah, what I hear is integrity.
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:16.719
So, how can we stay true to ourselves given the boundaries defined by the context?
01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:19.840
Also, integrity, I've heard so many different interpretations, right?
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:26.559
Because the laser I know a lot of people who put it really in uh integrity, very much connected to the professional sphere, right?
01:05:26.719 --> 01:05:31.039
Others say like it's it's a holistic concept about who you are and how you show up as a person.
01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:39.679
And and I think it doesn't really matter so much how we define it as long as we know what we what we mean and where it comes from and why we think the way we think about it.
01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:41.119
Yeah, what we stand for.
01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:49.840
And somehow the concept of um of authenticity often showed up with the word of transparency.
01:05:50.159 --> 01:05:51.840
What is the relation for you?
01:05:52.239 --> 01:05:59.760
I think we there's a there's a there's often a conception that I perceive that we feel that when we are authentic, we kind of show everything.
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:01.199
Everything of ourselves.
01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:03.119
But I don't think that's necessary.
01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:13.519
I think that whatever we whatever we show, if it's true to what we believe, true to kind of the extent that we can adapt to the context, we're still authentic, we're still authentic.
01:06:13.679 --> 01:06:18.559
And then there's the third category, which we have little to no influence over, which is anyway how we perceived.
01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:25.280
But I had a conversation, and I think I shared that at another I'm not sure we talked about it, but um I shared it at one point.
01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:34.000
I had a conversation in Afghanistan, which is a very difficult one about their admiration for Hitler as a warlord and how proud I must be.
01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:37.840
I was asked how proud I must be to be uh to be an Austrian.
01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:42.559
And and that was, for example, a very difficult, I mean, as an understatement.
01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:47.119
I was really I was warned about it that that could happen because others had have experienced it before.
01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:50.800
And I was just like, okay, so I'm not sure how to handle that situation.
01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:57.519
So I I what I did is I just withdrew for a little bit because they got very engaged in the conversation and I wasn't really the main actor anyway.
01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:01.039
And they shared all their beliefs, and that's kind of when I got to know where this came from.
01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:08.079
Because the first statement wasn't was just simply one, you must be brow, because you know you're coming from the country of Hitler, and I'm like, what do I do with that?
01:07:08.400 --> 01:07:18.079
And then in the conversation, it came, all the all the values came out that I understood and had learned by the time are important values in the Afghan culture.
01:07:18.239 --> 01:07:38.400
So for them, they they were so far away from the second world war in that sense that they they didn't go into the details of of the mindset, but what they what they appreciated was, you know, a man who, a strong man, which was kind of culturally uh very important there, who had a clear direction, who managed people to to became a leader for people, and he followed his dream.
01:07:38.639 --> 01:07:41.760
Now, this was the four things that they they looked at, right?
01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:48.239
And this gave me an option to find a connection in the sense like I hear the I hear what you put into this, but here's another story, right?
01:07:48.320 --> 01:07:50.159
Here's the story, how it's told where I'm coming from.
01:07:50.320 --> 01:08:02.400
If I had immediately gone into a defense and said, like, you know, no, but you know, the worst man ever, and and this is you can't say this and so on, I would have never understood what is actually there.
01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:04.239
How does this even connect to them?
01:08:04.400 --> 01:08:06.639
Why do why do you even think about this, right?
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:13.199
And through the conversation, it came out that they yeah, there was no condoning of all of all the the horrific atrocities.
01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:17.279
So they got stuck on this score values that are so important.
01:08:17.600 --> 01:08:18.319
Culture.
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:22.079
But again, first instinct was like, I can't be authentic on this, right?
01:08:22.239 --> 01:08:24.720
And I can also, you know, what do I do with this?
01:08:24.800 --> 01:08:26.720
But then back to the transparency.
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:32.640
I didn't go into all the details, like how horrible this is, because I didn't also want to make them feel bad.
01:08:32.720 --> 01:08:44.159
I just told them like there's a very big different picture that we have, and he's no war hero, and there's just uh yeah, the the history is just different about this and still appreciating where they came from.
01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:45.680
Yeah.
01:08:46.079 --> 01:08:47.279
Thank you for sharing that.
01:08:47.520 --> 01:08:57.199
And it's I think one of those moments where falling back to clear values, you have what you stand for as a facilitator.
01:08:57.279 --> 01:08:59.199
What I hear is connection.
01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:04.159
So, how can you disagree with a group while remaining in connection?
01:09:04.560 --> 01:09:11.279
And this ownership on the group and your role as a facilitator as opposed to, oh, let me teach you something.
01:09:11.439 --> 01:09:14.000
Here's something that you don't know about history.
01:09:14.239 --> 01:09:20.880
Luckily, I'm here to clu to clarify because you didn't have the mandate to be there as a history teacher.
01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:23.039
Maybe two or three more words on the context.
01:09:23.119 --> 01:09:26.720
I was also like seconded into that organization to work with them.
01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:31.760
So this was basically like per default, like my line manager who asked this to me.
01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:35.600
So I would also have been completely stepped out of context, right?
01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:39.840
Because I cannot kind of in front of everybody else contradict my line manager that way, right?
01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:41.600
So that was, for example, the context part.
01:09:41.680 --> 01:09:48.479
And they understood they were surprised that I wasn't uh that I wasn't very proud, right, uh, of this part of my history.
01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:52.239
But because of the conversation, they understood they were very surprised.
01:09:52.399 --> 01:09:56.079
And so their perception was also that I was authentic in it, right?
01:09:56.399 --> 01:10:01.600
And and that was all because I didn't kind of jump on the immediate urge to to defend myself.
01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:20.159
Because one thing I've learned, and I uh this is also something that I really pass on to a lot of people, is adapting to a context and not sharing all the the core values that I have openly, and maybe kind of being silent about values that I do not agree with because the context requires it, doesn't mean I give up my values.
01:10:20.800 --> 01:10:23.760
And and I think this was my first fear in that particular situation.
01:10:23.920 --> 01:10:27.840
If I don't speak against this now, I'm with them, right?
01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:28.960
But it's not.
01:10:29.199 --> 01:10:43.439
And sometimes, and we all want we often want work want to work for change, and sometimes it requires us to continue working what's there with what's there to be able to change it afterwards, because otherwise we don't even find the access to do it, right?
01:10:44.159 --> 01:10:48.640
I love that because at the end that's that's our story.
01:10:48.880 --> 01:10:53.920
The if we don't object, if we don't contradict, then we are part of them.
01:10:54.319 --> 01:10:56.399
That's our story, it's not theirs.
01:10:57.199 --> 01:11:04.159
And the way we react to such a confrontation is or any confront this is the problem with triggers, right?
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:12.720
As long as we still have an open wound, we will become defensive, judgmental, aggressive when it's a scar.
01:11:13.119 --> 01:11:14.399
We can take a step back.
01:11:14.479 --> 01:11:18.000
I'm like, oh, that's an interesting perspective you have that's different from my own.
01:11:18.319 --> 01:11:18.880
Tell me more.
01:11:19.039 --> 01:11:19.199
Yeah.
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:21.199
And this is going back to the yarns, right?
01:11:21.279 --> 01:11:25.359
Because I can take from that conversation whatever I choose to take from it.
01:11:26.079 --> 01:11:27.680
I can take nothing if I don't want to.
01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:30.640
Now I know they okay, they have an admiration for Hitler.
01:11:30.800 --> 01:11:31.039
Fine.
01:11:31.119 --> 01:11:32.399
I also know why that's the case.
01:11:32.640 --> 01:11:33.119
Fine.
01:11:33.279 --> 01:11:38.479
I can take that with me and say, like, oh, I add that to my reality, whatever they said, or not.
01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:39.760
It was just a conversation.
01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:43.760
And this is the this is in a way taking back ownership over your story.
01:11:44.000 --> 01:11:50.159
Because I shape my reality with whatever I pick and choose from others, plus from what I bring.
01:11:50.319 --> 01:12:02.720
And that we can only, and I think that only, or that works best, I think, if we share the stories, if we're not trying to convince each other, because then we very quickly go into defense, but if we share, just like, okay, you have a story, I have a story.
01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:04.880
It's like like we've been doing for the past one and a half hours.
01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:10.479
So we we we share our perspectives, but it's not about I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and you're not trying to convince me of anything.
01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:19.359
And there you there's so many things that you've said from like, oh yeah, that's a beautiful nuance to to the thought that I had, which already expanded my reality, which I take with me, right?
01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:24.479
And other thoughts they they stay with you because I'm like, yeah, I see them, I can I can see where you're coming from.
01:12:24.720 --> 01:12:28.319
From where I'm coming from, they do not necessarily fit into that picture.
01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:34.000
But that doesn't make them wrong, or it doesn't make them bad, or it doesn't make them worse than anything I think.
01:12:34.159 --> 01:12:38.319
It's just a different part of the same same picture we're looking at.
01:12:38.640 --> 01:12:47.039
Yeah, and I think that's something that in d many indigen indigenous societies or cultures have are much better at.
01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:54.319
The concept of it's not about on whose side we are or what's right or what's wrong.
01:12:54.560 --> 01:13:02.000
It's accepting we all have our own realities anyway, and then being curious about the reality of the others.
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:09.760
And I think especially in I have the impression that we are confronted with so many realities, um, so many harsh opinions.
01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:13.199
Very closely, we carry them in our pockets.
01:13:13.520 --> 01:13:20.319
That it's um a very important skill to to hone as a facilitator and maybe to spread.
01:13:20.479 --> 01:13:22.960
That's a little contribution we can make to the world.
01:13:23.359 --> 01:13:28.560
This is also the space that at least I'm trying to create where these where these realities can coexist.
01:13:28.880 --> 01:13:34.880
Because one thing is like, let's merge all realities into one reality and then we walk out of the room.
01:13:35.199 --> 01:13:35.840
Right.
01:13:36.159 --> 01:13:43.920
My guess is not everybody will be happy with that, because it's also why should my reality merged be merged into another one?
01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:46.800
That's giving up autonomy and ownership over my reality.
01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:48.640
I can still keep my reality, right?
01:13:48.800 --> 01:14:01.199
And I think that's the beauty, is that you you don't you don't create parallel, but you create like a big picture that has space for all the realities, where you accept like I don't that that part of the picture is not necessarily mine here.
01:14:01.359 --> 01:14:09.279
This is what I believe, but I see that you see it that way because that helps me to engage with you, because I know where you're coming from, like back to the off guns.
01:14:09.520 --> 01:14:19.680
I I understand the value hierarchy that they have, which is fundamentally different to the value hierarchy that I or we have in that sense, and but I understand it.
01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:34.560
It makes so much more sense also for later activities, for cooperation, for interactions, because I know where their values lie, and I know what will be important for them if we wanted to do change, if we wanted to transform anything, if we wanted to do anything new, you name it.
01:14:34.800 --> 01:14:38.720
But had I not found out about that, then things wouldn't have been possible.
01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:50.960
The image that comes to my mind, and I'm missing the word, I'm sure you have that, the thing you look through that looks almost like binoculars, but then you turn it and you have all these little pieces of glass.
01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:54.159
Kaleidoscope, yes.
01:14:54.479 --> 01:15:03.520
Where we have all these different realities, all these different pieces, and depending on how we turn it, we see a different image and they fit together differently.
01:15:04.159 --> 01:15:09.199
And there's not the one image that we are trying to create, or that is the correct one.
01:15:09.920 --> 01:15:10.399
Like that.
01:15:10.479 --> 01:15:12.239
That's a beautiful metaphor, yeah.
01:15:12.720 --> 01:15:16.079
Looking at the time, I think I have time maybe for one more sentence.
01:15:16.640 --> 01:15:20.880
Oh explanations are distractions from the essential message.
01:15:21.199 --> 01:15:21.520
Yeah.
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:26.960
This is I I've noticed this a lot on my LinkedIn conversations.
01:15:27.279 --> 01:15:34.720
This actually is rooted over the for the this is this is a result of the past two and a half years intensively posting on LinkedIn.
01:15:35.039 --> 01:15:43.760
Because ultimately it was usually about a sentence that either was written on my whiteboard or was kind of heading my my post, and you might know that, might have experienced that yourself.
01:15:43.840 --> 01:15:52.399
But what happened sometimes or uh fairly frequently at one point in the convers in the comments was that people dissected my explanation of it.
01:15:52.479 --> 01:15:56.479
And then we became completely sidetracked because uh this is not what I wanted to say.
01:15:56.640 --> 01:15:58.880
What I wanted to say is that first sentence.
01:15:59.119 --> 01:16:09.039
This was the key message, and then I explained it the way it works in my head, and then people went in like uh agreeing, disagreeing with however I'd explained it.
01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:15.279
And then it was very difficult to get back to the core to the core message.
01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:37.359
And also when I when I facilitate, for example, I let people usually or invite people usually to kind of to say one or two sentences what they want to say, but don't explain how they got to this, because that's when I got to get a pure reaction on the other side, and that's why we're not where where the risk of like diving off into oh, but what you how you explained this isn't correct or whatever, you reduce that.
01:16:37.520 --> 01:16:47.359
Plus, you get actually the what you really want to say across, and you have you help the people, or you kind of almost like you push the people to to focus on what they really want to say.
01:16:47.439 --> 01:16:48.479
Because this is the other thing, right?
01:16:48.640 --> 01:16:51.039
For us, it also becomes for us becomes a distraction.
01:16:51.119 --> 01:17:04.239
Like if I have lots of space to explain, like like if I had explained in the book, and I I still have those first texts, because what you what you read in the book now, the dissections of texts and texts and texts were explained it.
01:17:04.399 --> 01:17:13.199
But then I at one point I wrote this and then I I I said also to Chain in a conversation is like, I have the feeling I'm justifying myself, and I don't want to.
01:17:13.520 --> 01:17:15.920
This is just like I I don't need to, right?
01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:18.079
We can do this in a conversation afterwards.
01:17:18.319 --> 01:17:23.520
But when I write this long explanation, people were going, oh, but you write here, nah, that's not true, right?
01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:26.000
So he's the first sentence, not anything else.
01:17:26.479 --> 01:17:27.439
I love that.
01:17:27.680 --> 01:17:35.760
And um, I must say that I found lots of inspiration from your from the way you you're writing now your LinkedIn posts for my own.
01:17:36.079 --> 01:17:43.199
So I used to I always had the ambition to explain where I'm coming from and maybe where the ideas are coming from.
01:17:43.359 --> 01:17:46.399
And and then I realized becoming so complex.
01:17:46.560 --> 01:17:51.920
And also what I realized is the less I explain, the more interaction there is.
01:17:52.079 --> 01:18:01.199
And I think that's something that I definitely learned from you, how to facilitate a conversation on LinkedIn by choosing the right prompt.
01:18:01.600 --> 01:18:04.399
I'm glad and I'm happy to hear that that's the effect.
01:18:04.560 --> 01:18:13.119
I mean, I I said this initially, I think that that this book is a lot of the results of the conversations, because I found the conversations really enriching.
01:18:13.199 --> 01:18:18.399
I had uh I had to overlook the I agree or disagree because it's not so important for me.
01:18:18.479 --> 01:18:26.399
But but the thing is like people really opened up and went really into this, like why and and and and share their own stories.
01:18:26.479 --> 01:18:42.159
And that of course is a that that I take as a huge compliment, giving that it's a pl it's a public platform, and you know it's not and there were really, I remember there were there were comments that were deeply personal in and they would they were not direct messages, but that's just beautiful to see.
01:18:42.239 --> 01:18:51.520
And I I see now also in your posts are very different, and they they leave so much space to explore because not they're not answers.
01:18:51.680 --> 01:18:57.279
They're you you work a lot with questions you always have, but now now it's you you also have these cliffhangers, right?
01:18:57.359 --> 01:19:02.399
Because you said that initially, but you you have them way more camouflaged, but they're also there.
01:19:02.479 --> 01:19:11.760
Uh and this is what makes people engage, and this is what makes people share, and and and out of that conversation, new things grow and new ideas and thoughts come.
01:19:12.640 --> 01:19:28.479
And again, it is a very fine line between creating a cliffhanger and hence stimulating autonomy, ownership, curiosity, as opposed to creating confusion.
01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:33.680
And then participants discussing, okay, so oh, there was no explanation.
01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:34.399
What did he mean?
01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:36.000
What are we supposed to do?
01:19:36.239 --> 01:19:37.600
What is right, what is wrong?
01:19:37.920 --> 01:19:39.680
And and I I think I write that at one point.
01:19:39.760 --> 01:19:46.880
For me, there's for me a helpful distinction for that is it's important to tell the participants what they need to do.
01:19:47.039 --> 01:19:48.399
They need to be clear on what they need to do.
01:19:48.560 --> 01:19:54.880
They need they don't need to be clear on why they need to do it, because that's something that is for them to explore, right?
01:19:55.359 --> 01:19:59.119
Because also I've learned that when especially the way I work, right?
01:19:59.279 --> 01:20:03.520
If I tell them already beforehand why we're doing this, their mind goes that direction.
01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:05.760
And that's the only direction they will explore.
01:20:06.000 --> 01:20:09.920
But I've learned that when I leave it, when I leave it out and just say, like, we're doing this now.
01:20:10.079 --> 01:20:12.720
So please, you know, I invite you to that and that.
01:20:12.960 --> 01:20:14.880
They will always ask why we're doing this.
01:20:15.039 --> 01:20:18.880
And it's like, and then my famous sentence comes, like the instructions are fall through and complete.
01:20:18.960 --> 01:20:20.560
But but what happens afterwards, right?
01:20:20.640 --> 01:20:23.039
I can always say afterwards my intention if I want to.
01:20:23.199 --> 01:20:28.720
But I also noticed that that's for me always so surprising where their minds go.
01:20:28.960 --> 01:20:38.560
Because I had my idea where this is going to go and why we're doing this, but they often have very different connections because of their stories, because of the working relationships they have, the experiences that they come with.
01:20:38.720 --> 01:20:42.720
Um, and I think that that can be a loss if we prime it.
01:20:43.279 --> 01:20:50.960
Yeah, and I I can see a huge trap because for me it's closely related to authority and trust.
01:20:51.199 --> 01:20:59.600
So a group will follow your instructions without understanding the why, trusting that you have thought it through and it will make sense.
01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:07.920
If there's the slightest doubt, there can be a huge resistance and not the kind of resistance that you described in the book that is actually helpful.
01:21:08.319 --> 01:21:08.560
No.
01:21:09.359 --> 01:21:11.039
There are participants are like children.
01:21:11.199 --> 01:21:14.640
They they they smell when you're not convinced about what you're doing.
01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:16.800
And so you have to be convinced.
01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:21.279
And and again, my style of facilitation is not everyone's style.
01:21:21.520 --> 01:21:27.920
And I know that that some people like to work with with more instructions than less, rather, right?
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:32.079
Other people like to be more visual, right?
01:21:32.479 --> 01:21:33.680
All of that helps.
01:21:34.079 --> 01:21:40.399
So yeah, not pushing anybody in my direction, but um finding their own way is the key.
01:21:40.720 --> 01:21:41.039
Yeah.
01:21:41.279 --> 01:21:48.079
And at some point you wrote sometimes the purpose of a workshop is to find out what the purpose is.
01:21:48.399 --> 01:22:03.600
No, I I yeah, that's I wrote that um because I I feel, and I don't think it was her intention, but I think Pia Parker's amazing book on gatherings has created a purpose fever among facilitators.
01:22:03.840 --> 01:22:06.560
So it's all about purpose, and we have to find a purpose.
01:22:06.640 --> 01:22:09.119
And if there's no purpose, the gathering doesn't mean anything.
01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:10.960
I do not think that was her intention.
01:22:11.039 --> 01:22:17.840
I think it was the same as as that that many authors have any way to kind of create the awareness to have a conversation about it.
01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:22.079
But what I notice is that we often mix intent with purpose.
01:22:22.239 --> 01:22:24.159
For me, those are not the same concepts.
01:22:24.399 --> 01:22:33.359
And sometimes, because I'm such an emergent facilitator, I've I also feel that sometimes we actually need to find out what this was about by going through it.
01:22:33.680 --> 01:22:37.199
And sure, you can before say, like I like on Monday, right?
01:22:37.279 --> 01:22:39.760
We want to have a team day, we want to grow as a team, and so on.
01:22:39.840 --> 01:22:42.640
Yeah, that that's for me all that's that's all intentions.
01:22:43.359 --> 01:22:47.199
And the purpose at the end of the day, I asked them, so you know what was today about?
01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:50.720
And then they said today is just about having actually a good time together.
01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:51.920
Uh, and that's great.
01:22:52.079 --> 01:22:56.000
Yeah, but we didn't really discuss beforehand, like we have to have a good time, right?
01:22:56.159 --> 01:22:57.520
Because that puts pressure on people.
01:22:57.600 --> 01:23:00.479
So I think purpose is great to have in the back of our minds.
01:23:00.640 --> 01:23:02.880
I don't think we should make ourselves dependent on it.
01:23:03.039 --> 01:23:05.600
I also think we should not all, it's not all purpose.
01:23:05.680 --> 01:23:09.359
I think there's many other things we can look at when we talk about facilitation.
01:23:09.520 --> 01:23:16.159
Um and I I sometimes we only find the purpose out in retrospect, or most of the times, I believe, anyway.
01:23:16.239 --> 01:23:16.880
But yeah.
01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:19.520
What remains your facilitation challenge?
01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:22.640
My facilitation challenge remains the neurodivergent space.
01:23:22.800 --> 01:23:26.720
And on Monday I had a first glimpse of that because there were neurodivergent participants.
01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:48.000
Uh I I know that there is uh there's a lot of learning, also from my private life, uh, like uh having having someone close to me who who is neurodivergent, I see that that is a completely different type of facilitation in many ways, also because of the uniqueness of the neurodivert base.
01:23:48.479 --> 01:23:50.880
And nobody is like the other person, right?
01:23:50.960 --> 01:24:03.439
And that is something that I really want to explore more because I believe we uh like with the undiagnosed neurodivergent situations, I be I believe we almost always facilitate a group where there are neuro neurodivergent people in it.
01:24:03.520 --> 01:24:10.479
And we might have sometimes we might have categorized them as extrovert or introvert while that while this was something completely different, right?
01:24:10.560 --> 01:24:17.039
But I also know that, for example, there will be a lot of challenges the way I've facilitated for most of my career does not work that way.
01:24:17.199 --> 01:24:25.680
So there I have to really I have to find myself in a way working in a neurodivergent space, and this is the challenge that remains for me.
01:24:26.239 --> 01:24:26.560
Thank you.
01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:27.439
Last question.
01:24:27.600 --> 01:24:30.720
What would be your advice to your younger self?
01:24:31.039 --> 01:24:34.640
Um what would be advice to my younger self?
01:24:35.039 --> 01:24:36.399
Do this earlier.
01:24:36.640 --> 01:24:45.520
It's not it's it's it hurts a bit to look in the mirror, but there is no way that you don't come out stronger at the end of it.
01:24:46.000 --> 01:24:52.000
And I regret, I don't regret, but I I wish I had done this sooner.
01:24:52.159 --> 01:25:00.159
Um that I probably wasn't wasn't right, but I I learned a lot by doing, and uh, this is also what I advise other facilitators to do.
01:25:00.239 --> 01:25:01.920
Just do throw yourselves out there.
01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:04.239
Uh don't try to imitate other people.
01:25:04.560 --> 01:25:09.920
Become yourselves and look in the mirror more than look you look at the participants.
01:25:10.079 --> 01:25:11.840
Because ultimately they are anyway mirrors.
01:25:11.920 --> 01:25:12.239
But yeah.
01:25:12.479 --> 01:25:13.920
Thank you so so much, Thomas.
01:25:14.159 --> 01:25:14.800
Thank you.
01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:19.680
Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end.
01:25:19.840 --> 01:25:24.640
I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for.
01:25:24.800 --> 01:25:35.199
And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world.
01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:45.920
I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve.
01:25:46.319 --> 01:26:01.760
And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us visit workshops.org slash support to make a small donation to keep the podcast free.
01:26:02.319 --> 01:26:03.199
Thank you so much.
01:26:03.760 --> 01:26:06.880
I hope to be in your ears next week.