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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, my name is David Lourimer, and I'm here on the Wise Scientist's podcast with my old friends, Ravi Ravindra, and Satish Kumar.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think I've known Ravi even longer than I've known Satish, but it's a long time in any event, and I want just to put into our conversation this quotation from E. F. Schumacher, but after whom obviously Schumacher College was,
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[SPEAKER_00]: named, which is humanity is now too clever to survive without wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a really sage remark, so I'm going to pass over to Rabia at this point to take it forward.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe I should really begin by first of all very much admiring this remark of Schumacher.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And because there is a bit of a real problem that the humanity is got too clever, largely based on scientific knowledge.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And these days, of course, AI, which is, of course, also using scientific knowledge and getting more and more information.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that unless we can totally reform something or change something, there is a real crisis.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I completely agree with this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Satish Kumar would agree with me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So let me first of all ask Satish something.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And one of his remarks that he makes is about that in the spiritual tradition.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Somehow the implication of your remark
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[SPEAKER_01]: I want to question that completely, both sides.
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[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, let me begin with the science being objective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: More than anybody else probably, Emmanuel Kant at the end of the 19th century wrote a very important book called The Critique of Pure Reason, in which he very specifically speaks about, that science can never be objective, scientific knowledge, simply because
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[SPEAKER_01]: And if some other creatures were looking at it or some other animals, they will have a very different science.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So science is not objective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the great value of science is that it is inter subjective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody at Oxford can say something and then somebody at Harvard can challenge it or question it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it is inter subjective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas the whole emphasis in the spiritual teachings is to be completely free of me, me, me, me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For example, a standard remark of Christ in the Gospel of Matthew, unless you leave yourself behind, you cannot be a follower of mine.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And anywhere else also, the whole call is, for example, in the yoga sutra, Padangli describes what is samadhi, and the actual expression is svarupasunya, when one is completely emptied of oneself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in the spiritual teachings, the connection is really completely objective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Sadly, it is not inter-subjective because every other human being has to be at the same level as the Buddha or Christ to be able to check this, so it's not inter-subjective in an ordinary sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Although, of course, even in the scientific world, it's inter-subjective only when a scientist at Harvard can have a similar equipment and a similar ability to be able to check what the guy at Oxford said.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, the inter-subjectivity is a problem everywhere, unless there is an equivalent quality, equivalent knowledge they cannot check it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But really the whole call in the spiritual teachings is totally free of me, me, me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, a completely objective knowledge, objective understanding.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So here, begin with this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's a very good, very profound comment, Ravi.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I could say that science is supposed to be objective.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so the reality is supposed to be subjective.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Rather than a complete list of objective and subjective.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now, by point, you are interpreting rightly, I agree with you, but this is not how the world
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[SPEAKER_02]: understand science as I know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: In the world they say that, for example, Rene Decker said that what cannot be measured does not exist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Only thing exists which can be measured.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's like I think therefore I have the thought and measurement.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so from that point of view, matter is an object.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, science and record is a kind of scientist for science and philosophy of the pure reason, and pure rationality, and pure science, and science basically means knowledge, science does not mean objective knowledge.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But the way science has been hijacked,
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[SPEAKER_02]: and are interpreted as if it is only objective knowledge, meaning something what can be measured, but can be quantified, what can be analyzed, which can be defined, then it's a science.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If it is something like love, compassion, kindness, generosity, courage, imagination, these are all right chemistry of the brain and they don't exist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so in our universities, in our schools, in our college, all the scientific education and science with knowledge, it completely deprived of poetry, music, art, culture, imagination, creativity, courage, compassion, kindness, all these subjective, which are not measurable, that not quantitative, but qualitative.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is why I say, it's supposed to be.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But you are absolutely right,
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[SPEAKER_02]: and true sense of spirituality, they both embrace each other and you can not have an object without some object and you can not have something without object because you can not separate them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I totally agree with you that this ego, me and mine and I, all these are very separational.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when we are all relationship, everything in kind of a world exists only
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[SPEAKER_02]: separately, and even not even a particle cannot exist by itself.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Things can exist only when they come together in relationship.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So basically, I agree with you, but this is why I say maybe it's supposed to be objective and supposed to be subjective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Can I just come in very quickly with a historical remark?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that is that the 17th century philosophers,
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[SPEAKER_00]: They made this distinction between primary and secondary qualities.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the primary quality was what you could weigh, measure, see, quantify, exactly as you've been talking about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the secondary quality was everything which we now call subjective, including consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And therefore, the direction of explanation, this is an important point.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and subsequently went from matter to consciousness, from mind, from brain to mind.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that the primacy of matter was established by this idea that that matter is subject to these, this approach of primary qualities.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And related with this also the remark that Satish just quoted,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Attributed to Descartes, but also quoted by Max Planck and many others, unless it can be measured, it cannot be real.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But just to remind to you, a remark of Shankara and Indian philosopher, whatever can be measured cannot possibly be real.
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[SPEAKER_02]: but can be participated in, can we say that Shankaracharya was also wrong, as Descartes was wrong, because that's a unrealistic thinking.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You separate mind and matter.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You separate consciousness and objective reality.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think the universe is made of these two elements together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: matter and spirit exist together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No spirit can manifest without matter.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My body can only exist when they just stole and spirit and consciousness there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And consciousness as spirit and soul cannot manifest without my body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So Sankracharya says that what cannot be measured, what can be measured, does not exist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is also wrong.
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[SPEAKER_02]: at that cartridge long.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think so, dualistic thinking, the metal and spirit up to separate things and either a metal exists or spirit exists.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think the birth exists together and subjective and old objective together, quality and quantity together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Without this kind of your holistic approach, I think Shankaracharya was also long at that cartridge long.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But they are not necessarily concerned only when one is measuring something or connecting them together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They are really referring to what is the fundamental reality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: From the perspective of Shankara, the fundamental reality is consciousness or spirit from which everything else emerges.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But if you want to measure something or look at something that has emerged, then of course you need the matter to enter into it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but you don't this idea this one is a fundamental reality and the other is a non-fandom and also superficial reality.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's also completely wrong because everything is fundamental.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Matter is as holy and sacred and the spirit is a holy and sacred.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You cannot deny matter.
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[SPEAKER_02]: matter is sacred mountains and trees and forests and birds and animals and oceans and a soil without that life cannot exist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the idea that matter is not a fundamental reality and all these previous fundamental reality is completely dualistic if you take from the Buddhist point
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[SPEAKER_02]: of you or a J-point of you, you will see that matter and spirit exist together and then they have to travel together like me and Yang, Chinese, Taoist, the same thing, they say Yin and Yang go together, they don't together, you cannot separate them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But given the fact that they go together, how is it that most of the scientific enterprise has not been very much interested in the spirit?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that is what I think, and I must take a view because scientists were rebelling against a very kind of very dogmatic religious kind of tradition particularly in the West when church dominated the thinking and a creative fear and a fear of the hell, a fear of desire for heaven.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and a God, a punishing God, and that punishing God will send you in a prodigatory and then and give you punishment to go to hell or go to heaven.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That kind of big dogmatic Christianity became so dominant and that was science, it was built against that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that was a kind of re, they were better, rightly, because I think this idea of punishment that God will punish you and they will say, hell, and you will hell and reward you to go to heaven.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That was also
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[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, science rebelled against that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But they went too far.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And they denied the spirituality, they denied the kind of the consciousness, the denied what it does not exist in objective and measurable and quantifiable ways.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so the Christian went on one extreme and denied matter and put God in the head.
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[SPEAKER_02]: as a judge of everything and then science where the other extreme and then denied consciousness and spirituality.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you and I have now the new task to bring these two together in a very balanced way so that metal and spirit can dance together, consciousness and a physicality can dance together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But how do we actually promote this notion in the society?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, first of all,
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[SPEAKER_02]: we have to communicate.
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[SPEAKER_02]: At this moment, the communication in our education is all one sided.
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[SPEAKER_02]: All our education is left, and we spend billions and billions of dollars and pounds and euros around the world.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Every school, every university, every college, they only teach you the left, the most other brain.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What can be quantified, what can be managed, what can be administered, and what we analyze,
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we have to start, how do we do it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: We start with education and we have to bring the education left, how we develop the blade, and the right hand is the brain together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We have to say science and spirituality, science and wisdom, and you have very rightly and beautifully put in your paper.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The science and wisdom have to dance together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can not have wisdom without science, as you cannot have science without wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So your paper is very good paper, and I think that paper should be circulated every school, every university, and all the professors and lectures should take that paper to the heart.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think this is the, as you, I'm sure, no, very ancient idea, ishwarkrishna of Sankhikarika, actually explicitly says, Spirit cannot act without the body, and the body cannot act without the Spirit.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's right, yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and this is ishwarkrishna's remark.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's coming back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He uses the word purshayan, prakritya, just translate it this into Spirit and body.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But now the question is, you know, Puru Shara Placuti is a kind of, to some extent, stankya, that's what you did.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the stankya means science in a way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it really means counting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's not counting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's not counting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think Purushana Prakati together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And Purushana is the kind of consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the Prakati is the matter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now the question really is, how do we promote this in the schools?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because everybody,
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[SPEAKER_01]: is occupied with how can I gain more if I can get better marks?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can go to a better college, got a scholarship, blah, blah, blah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is what right from grade one, I noticed this even with my own grand children.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's what they are taught in schools.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is a very good question, and I started Schumacher College in order to counter that kind of education and Christian Murthy started schools in India, in England, and also in California to counter that kind of education, which is very reductionist and very mechanistic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so the one way is to start new schools because it's better to light the candle than because the darkness,
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[SPEAKER_02]: better to start something good example, set a good example that in just criticize the old system.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that was a one way to do it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But still, these are very small experiments and they are based kind of, and they have a small influence at the grassroots level.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of people thinking and learning about these things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But the mainstream society, all over the world, 200 nations around the world, they are following one as a kind of,
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[SPEAKER_02]: authoritarian education.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They're only left brain, rational, scientific, materialistic education that being given every country, whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, communist, capitalists, whatever the country you are.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So only one
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[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of think in the consciousness, the reality, relationship, all these are out of the window.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so we are living in a very dark time, the Kaliyuga.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, I don't know what how we can change it, but we can do something small.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And since what I did, as starting Schumacher call it, as Christianity schools bring holistic education.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think Christian Marti would say, because you knew him very well?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what he would say, I think very much emphasizes really in a way deep down in every serious teaching, great emphasis on impartial self study.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because then one can begin to see what calls me, what stands in my way, and then also one would discover that although I may think that I have a divine element in me but I forgot that I also have the demonic element in me because in principle, the whole external universe is mirrored inside me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: even the greatest teachers like Christ is tested by Satan, Buddha is tested by Mara.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They cannot not be tested, similarly anybody else, whoever seriously undertakes any kind of spiritual inquiry or a spiritual study, which would fundamentally really require an impartial self-study, and then one would find the demon in one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I was rather struck by a fact, for example, both in Bali, the word Mara, and in Hebrew, the word Satan, the both mean obstacle.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I was very impressed to meet that in your paper.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's the obstacle, yes, yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what stands in my way?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in a way to encounter my Satan can be helpful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It can point out what stands in my way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then also, I feel increasingly that there is no reason against to be against Satan either.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Satan has a lot of helpful things he can do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He has a lot of activity,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Christ didn't ask the Satan to go to hell or to disappear.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He asked him to help from behind, get the behind me, Satan.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Similarly, the Buddha actually said before his enlightenment, Mara, you are a part and parcel of myself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To acknowledge that these elements are also in us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If the whole universe is in me, why imagine that Mara is not in me, or Satan is not in me?
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, that's wonderful, Ravi, because you know, this is the Yin Yang principles, the kind of darkness and the light exists together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You cannot have just light 24 hours.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You have to have a darkness as well.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a kind of universal principle.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what Jesus Christ and Buddha recognized and they embraced the both sides, the negative and positive Yin Yang.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's eternal truth.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I very much agree with you that this is how we have to embrace and know
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[SPEAKER_02]: say the obstacles are wrong and the Satan is wrong or something, we have to work with them and so I agree with you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Can I ask at this point?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean to become wiser is surely to become more aware.
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[SPEAKER_00]: because this is part of the result of your self-inquiry process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I was struck by a remark by Jung.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've been reading the background interviews to memories, dreams, reflections, which has just come out from Princeton University Press, Jung's life and work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, I have this extraordinary drive towards awareness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And he says that the, and that's the, they're dealing with the shadow side and, and shit, putting, that it's, it's through that, that the light emerges, but it's, and I think this is one of the great shortcomings of contemporary life, including, you know, on the international stage, is that we're, we're terribly unaware of the shadow, and we projected onto others.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And at the political stage, we projected on to our so-called enemies.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then you say, well, I'm the good person, you know, I'm the worthy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm on the good side, and this man over here, he's just evil.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, fight, we have to fight him, we have to get rid of him, we can't listen to him, we can't negotiate with him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We've just got to wipe him off the face of the earth.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:49.519 --> 21:50.140
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
21:50.160 --> 21:50.580
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
21:52.433 --> 21:56.335
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I would say it's very important to embrace the shadow side.
21:57.007 --> 22:10.106
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is that we are, I mean, for example, we every day have a bath, but then we get against sweaty next day as we have to bath again.
22:10.607 --> 22:12.630
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a kind of part of life.
22:12.730 --> 22:13.812
[SPEAKER_02]: So shadow side.
22:14.212 --> 22:19.440
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we are all very kind and compassionate and we try to be more kind and more compassionate.
22:19.720 --> 22:24.347
[SPEAKER_02]: But still, anger, fear, anxiety, these things exist in everybody.
22:24.327 --> 22:32.635
[SPEAKER_02]: No one person is completely free of fear or anger or anxiety or whatever.
22:32.975 --> 22:38.059
[SPEAKER_02]: So shadow side is an existential part of our being.
22:38.440 --> 22:45.626
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, like Ravi said, Jesus Christ and Buddha, they embraced the shadow side.
22:45.947 --> 22:48.249
[SPEAKER_02]: And we all need to embrace the shadow side.
22:48.929 --> 22:50.290
[SPEAKER_02]: And then deal with it.
22:50.751 --> 22:51.972
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course,
22:52.036 --> 23:10.887
[SPEAKER_02]: In our lives, we try to emphasize a little bit more of the positive side and more kind of constructive side, more spiritual side, but at the same time, we have to recognize that these marah, these obstacles of life exist in us and if these were it.
23:12.830 --> 23:13.892
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think, Rami?
23:14.615 --> 23:24.053
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I think it is important to recognize this, that's the reason I mentioned that both even Christ and the Buddha have to face this, why won't I have to face this?
23:24.193 --> 23:25.496
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
23:26.277 --> 23:29.383
[SPEAKER_01]: But since you mentioned Carl Jung here, a little bit
23:29.735 --> 23:42.831
[SPEAKER_01]: you probably know that his last book, which was actually just put out on the desk there, has many and many excerpts from the yoga sutras and from the Bhagavad-gita written on the side.
23:42.911 --> 23:44.673
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was obviously influenced by it.
23:45.274 --> 23:54.846
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was very surprised by the fact that when he visited India, he was asked by several people to visit Raman, who we regarded as a great sage.
23:54.906 --> 23:58.290
[SPEAKER_01]: We call him Raman Maharishi,
23:58.692 --> 24:03.537
[SPEAKER_01]: but he's refused to go to see him because he said he may be too much influenced by him.
24:03.637 --> 24:04.478
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you believe this?
24:05.159 --> 24:12.647
[SPEAKER_01]: He did not go to see him because he did not want to be so much influenced by him.
24:14.148 --> 24:16.851
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really interesting.
24:16.891 --> 24:28.463
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me tell you a story in here which I just read yesterday because Andrew Harvey's got a new book and in it he relates his story about his father
24:28.527 --> 24:41.351
[SPEAKER_00]: because he was brought up in India, his father who visited Ramana Mahashi often, and one time when he was there, there was a drunk making rather a nuisance of himself around the Ashram.
24:42.193 --> 24:49.827
[SPEAKER_00]: And the minder said, we've got to get him off the premises and said, Ramana Mahashi said, no, no, no, bring him here.
24:49.807 --> 25:10.819
[SPEAKER_00]: bring him here and so he sat down in front of Ramana and about after about 10 minutes he had tears streaming down his face and the point that he was making was the gaze was the the drishty the the emanation the compassion the the seeing
25:11.272 --> 25:19.713
[SPEAKER_00]: coming out of this sage, and he took him on as a disciple and he became a guardner, but I love that story.
25:19.733 --> 25:20.535
[SPEAKER_02]: That's wonderful.
25:20.615 --> 25:21.317
[SPEAKER_02]: That's wonderful.
25:21.357 --> 25:24.184
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's what I call radical love.
25:25.295 --> 25:34.863
[SPEAKER_02]: They love when you love someone who is good and stantly and wise, and you like and you agree, that's a moderate love.
25:35.504 --> 25:54.340
[SPEAKER_02]: But like Ramana Mahashi, embracing somebody who is not so good, who is not perfect, he has some shortcomings, and yet, I mean, that's what Jesus Christ did.
25:54.320 --> 26:23.128
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think radical love, it's a love, particularly love those who are kind of down to them or lost or bewildered or confused or sinners or whatever they are and loving them and helping them through love, you transform, through hate, you can kill, but through love, you can transform.
26:24.779 --> 26:28.504
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, there is a remark of Raman Maharishi, which has always struck me.
26:28.545 --> 26:32.771
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody asked him, how should we treat the others?
26:33.612 --> 26:34.774
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there are no others.
26:35.455 --> 26:51.478
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
26:52.437 --> 26:54.820
[SPEAKER_02]: wisdom is born of love.
26:55.782 --> 27:06.457
[SPEAKER_02]: When you're loving your heart, then with them emerges, could be doubt, love is the ground, the soil in which the flowers of wisdom grow.
27:07.158 --> 27:09.020
[SPEAKER_02]: Without love, they can be no wisdom.
27:11.343 --> 27:14.648
[SPEAKER_00]: So then you could ask the question, how does science become more loving?
27:15.134 --> 27:17.256
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good question, that's a good question.
27:17.496 --> 27:27.827
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to start loving, as Ravi said, there's no other science has to see that connectedness, the relationship, love is a kind of relationship.
27:28.367 --> 27:37.997
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when the science sees that it's not an object, it's not separate and I'm not in charge, I'm not in control, I'm not in dominating position.
27:38.437 --> 27:40.319
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in relationship with the natural world.
27:40.619 --> 27:42.441
[SPEAKER_02]: And the moment science is,
27:42.421 --> 27:50.869
[SPEAKER_02]: using nature as a kind of resource for making money or making experimental, making tools or technology or something.
27:51.370 --> 27:57.315
[SPEAKER_02]: But Ramana Mahashit, so nature is sacred and no other.
27:57.636 --> 28:03.501
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, we are nature, nature is not just mountains and forests and animals, we are nature.
28:03.822 --> 28:05.523
[SPEAKER_02]: That is unity of blood, there's no other.
28:05.844 --> 28:11.449
[SPEAKER_02]: When the unity of blood and the science has to embrace that,
28:11.429 --> 28:21.103
[SPEAKER_02]: they can cultivate with that love of nature and love of yourself and love of all living beings, that is a fundamental tool to cultivate wisdom.
28:23.747 --> 28:29.135
[SPEAKER_01]: But really wisdom is, in any case, a subtle combination of truth and love.
28:29.776 --> 28:31.679
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
28:31.699 --> 28:35.505
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not otherwise it's not in nothing to do with wisdom.
28:35.945 --> 28:37.708
[SPEAKER_01]: If either one of them is missing.
28:38.329 --> 28:40.332
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
28:40.432 --> 28:41.233
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
28:41.888 --> 29:00.474
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean in my view, if you have love, then you discover truth as well, because in our Jane tradition, and also maybe Hindu tradition, the five principles, the first principles in non-violence, which is a kind of love.
29:00.934 --> 29:02.457
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is true to a second.
29:02.677 --> 29:05.561
[SPEAKER_02]: Aimsa Satya, aimsa comes first.
29:06.022 --> 29:09.246
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have a love in your heart, then you discover truth.
29:09.226 --> 29:19.666
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, and kind of subject another, of course, that is first, and then this consciousness, and then another is a kind of joy and beauty.
29:20.367 --> 29:23.633
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that's a kind of combination.
29:24.454 --> 29:25.817
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a kind of,
29:25.797 --> 29:33.834
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree with you, the truth and love are kind of a companions, life companions, they cannot be separated.
29:33.874 --> 29:36.119
[SPEAKER_02]: If there is no truth, they cannot be not love.
29:36.340 --> 29:37.963
[SPEAKER_02]: If there is no love, they cannot be true.
29:38.003 --> 29:39.807
[SPEAKER_02]: They go together, don't you agree?
29:40.765 --> 29:48.293
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, no, well, I agree that they go together, but the question is, the whole scientific enterprise doesn't bring it together.
29:48.734 --> 30:10.097
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
30:10.432 --> 30:11.454
[SPEAKER_02]: non-pilation.
30:11.574 --> 30:11.915
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
30:12.155 --> 30:13.197
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good calculation.
30:13.337 --> 30:13.758
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
30:13.778 --> 30:14.419
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm interesting.
30:14.619 --> 30:32.170
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason I'm saying that because, in fact, in Canada, we had a very strange occasion that our Supreme Court of Canada, at one stage made a decision later on, they had to retrieve it, that if a woman feels assaulted, she is assaulted.
30:32.420 --> 30:42.147
[SPEAKER_01]: So even if no damage has been done to her, nobody has touched her, but the way somebody looks at her or even says to her, unless you marry me, I'm gonna kill myself or whatever.
30:42.709 --> 30:47.863
[SPEAKER_01]: So violation is a much stronger expression than violence.
30:47.843 --> 30:52.692
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I would agree that violation is good.
30:53.072 --> 30:56.018
[SPEAKER_02]: So, no, I am sorry, it's non-biolation.
30:56.559 --> 30:56.779
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
30:56.839 --> 31:02.109
[SPEAKER_02]: And a non-biolation is a kind of positive side of non-biolation is love.
31:02.690 --> 31:10.003
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I said, when you have a love in your heart, then you discover truth and you follow the truth.
31:10.996 --> 31:21.555
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, what's so interesting in this conversation is I would relate this back to the Peter Doonov, three fundamental principles, which happened to be love wisdom and truth.
31:22.176 --> 31:22.376
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:23.158 --> 31:28.227
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, love brings, love is from life, and it brings warmth into the heart.
31:29.329 --> 31:31.613
[SPEAKER_00]: Wisdom is associated with light in the mind.
31:32.094 --> 31:32.334
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:32.354 --> 31:35.620
[SPEAKER_00]: Truth brings freedom and strength to the will.
31:37.118 --> 31:48.410
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in addition, if there's a five or two extra principles, because I have a pentagram around my neck, and they are goodness and justice.
31:49.190 --> 31:49.691
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
31:49.711 --> 31:52.834
[SPEAKER_00]: So love wisdom, truth, goodness, justice.
31:53.395 --> 31:55.737
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a pretty good set of principles myself.
31:56.017 --> 31:57.218
[SPEAKER_02]: They're good.
31:57.299 --> 32:04.806
[SPEAKER_02]: David, I have a little bit of, kind of worry about the word justice.
32:04.826 --> 32:05.607
[SPEAKER_02]: Because
32:06.565 --> 32:07.514
[SPEAKER_02]: Love!
32:09.653 --> 32:12.096
[SPEAKER_02]: is a kind of higher than justice.
32:12.196 --> 32:16.321
[SPEAKER_02]: But justice is something I give justice, so to speak.
32:17.162 --> 32:20.566
[SPEAKER_02]: And I make justice, and I make it just society.
32:21.146 --> 32:24.530
[SPEAKER_02]: Justice is a kind of consequence of love.
32:24.850 --> 32:27.854
[SPEAKER_02]: If we love and be just, we cannot be unjust.
32:28.615 --> 32:29.996
[SPEAKER_02]: We cannot harm anyone.
32:30.677 --> 32:32.900
[SPEAKER_02]: But if we are harming, there's a lack of love.
32:32.920 --> 32:37.585
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would say the way justice is used
32:37.565 --> 32:46.353
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think it can also be used, the Bulgarian, I think it can also be translated as equity.
32:47.253 --> 32:53.819
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and the great thing about justice and the way that he understands it is its universal.
32:54.660 --> 32:56.221
[SPEAKER_00]: It applies equally to everybody.
32:56.702 --> 32:57.182
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
32:57.202 --> 33:00.785
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can't have the selective justice that has to be universal.
33:01.326 --> 33:07.251
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
33:07.737 --> 33:16.095
[SPEAKER_01]: from the old testament to the new testament, or really if the basic notion of in the Jewish tradition to Christian tradition.
33:16.836 --> 33:20.765
[SPEAKER_01]: At a depth, I don't mean super-fusually Christians have been ruling the world.
33:20.825 --> 33:22.148
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the kind of thing I mean.
33:22.929 --> 33:27.940
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the basic level, the shift really is from justice to love.
33:28.747 --> 33:45.144
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because just this, I mean in our modern world, every country has judges and courts and the justice, if you go break the law, then you are given punishment and send to prison.
33:45.505 --> 33:47.650
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a kind of how justice is,
33:47.917 --> 33:55.670
[SPEAKER_02]: seen to be a kind of judgmental in the Bible, Jesus said judge not so that you may not be judged.
33:55.691 --> 34:08.052
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think we have to find a slightly different word which, what I understand what you mean and I think we have to have a society make the thought exploit each other and the thought impose.
34:08.032 --> 34:10.997
[SPEAKER_02]: just order, also society.
34:11.097 --> 34:13.321
[SPEAKER_02]: I can sympathize with that totally.
34:13.581 --> 34:19.811
[SPEAKER_02]: But the way the word had been misused, I would say misused is what he made.
34:20.112 --> 34:23.958
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, and if you have a love, that justice will flow.
34:23.978 --> 34:25.981
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, that is true with every word.
34:26.021 --> 34:27.504
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, the word love.
34:27.924 --> 34:29.667
[SPEAKER_01]: They were in that whom making love.
34:29.847 --> 34:30.949
[SPEAKER_01]: What the hell does that mean?
34:31.009 --> 34:32.031
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:32.467 --> 34:47.187
[SPEAKER_01]: So, many different levels and, yeah, so one has to be clear that there are many different levels of each of these words, by the way, just changing the words is not going to help.
34:47.207 --> 34:51.072
[SPEAKER_01]: What is going to help is change in ourselves?
34:51.693 --> 34:52.374
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
34:52.394 --> 34:53.395
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
34:53.375 --> 35:06.533
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, a real honest inner transformation that is required and that first of all requires a serious self-study without approval or discipline just to see.
35:08.736 --> 35:13.442
[SPEAKER_02]: In Sanskrit we have a word for self-study Swadhya.
35:14.249 --> 35:15.070
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
35:15.650 --> 35:32.288
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, self-study is to self-awareness and a kind of self-knowledge, no diselt, whoever I am, I am not just a kind of name or whatever it is.
35:32.368 --> 35:33.650
[SPEAKER_02]: I am more than that.
35:34.170 --> 35:37.834
[SPEAKER_02]: And each and every being is a kind of divine being.
35:37.894 --> 35:43.260
[SPEAKER_02]: And without that self-understanding and self-awareness and self-knowledge,
35:43.240 --> 35:43.961
[SPEAKER_02]: who am I?
35:44.603 --> 35:45.224
[SPEAKER_02]: Who am I?
35:45.264 --> 35:48.270
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a kind of question that we don't ask.
35:49.052 --> 35:50.715
[SPEAKER_02]: And we don't answer that question.
35:50.755 --> 35:51.316
[SPEAKER_02]: Who am I?
35:51.777 --> 35:59.933
[SPEAKER_02]: I just think I'm the Indian, I'm a Jay, I'm a Satish, I'm a Jitter, I'm this, I'm that we put labels upon ourselves and we don't go beyond that.
35:59.913 --> 36:25.161
[SPEAKER_02]: So, when you go for self-study and self-awareness and self-knowledge, then you go beyond your labels and beyond your names and beyond your kind of words even as you said, but go to the deeper meaning and that I would say comes into all the, I mean, although I agree with you, the obstacles are there, did Mara and Satan's are there, but at the same time also the divine being there, at the same time.
36:25.495 --> 36:29.018
[SPEAKER_01]: But you see, this is how the degeneration takes place.
36:29.038 --> 36:36.224
[SPEAKER_01]: If you look at the contemporary Sanskrit English dictionaries, yes, under the word Swadhyay.
36:36.725 --> 36:40.208
[SPEAKER_01]: The first translation is studying sacred books.
36:41.009 --> 36:42.630
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll need to take my word for it.
36:43.491 --> 36:45.633
[SPEAKER_01]: Swadhyay literally means self-study.
36:45.653 --> 36:46.694
[SPEAKER_01]: There can be no object.
36:46.714 --> 36:48.495
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I understand self-study.
36:49.056 --> 36:50.597
[SPEAKER_01]: Self-awareness.
36:50.617 --> 36:54.000
[SPEAKER_01]: But you look at the contemporary dictionaries.
36:54.352 --> 37:01.347
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember on one occasion I mentioned this to Krishan Murthy and I have never heard him use this expression in public.
37:01.367 --> 37:07.581
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, damn it sir, what is the point of studying sacred books unless you study the book of yourself?
37:08.082 --> 37:08.563
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
37:10.130 --> 37:11.392
[SPEAKER_00]: They do.
37:11.872 --> 37:15.998
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what, I think that's actually quite a good question.
37:16.058 --> 37:19.402
[SPEAKER_00]: You are supposed to bring this conversation to a close.
37:20.063 --> 37:24.969
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there any other sort of final remarks you'd like to make?
37:25.130 --> 37:30.096
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we haven't solved the problem as to how to make science.
37:30.236 --> 37:30.737
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is that?
37:30.777 --> 37:33.100
[SPEAKER_00]: But we have shed some light on it.
37:33.080 --> 37:48.743
[SPEAKER_02]: I think and and and we've also emphasized the importance of education but what we have tried to explore not maybe find that answer but we have to explore is that science has to embrace wisdom
37:49.685 --> 37:51.888
[SPEAKER_02]: and the wise people have to embrace science.
37:52.368 --> 37:53.550
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I understand.
37:53.910 --> 37:59.037
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, when you have those two together, dancing together, that's a dance of Shiva.
37:59.657 --> 38:10.551
[SPEAKER_02]: And Shiva's dance is a dance of masculine feminine, opposites come together, dark and light, come together, Satan and divine come together.
38:10.951 --> 38:17.920
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the kind of wisdom to see the whole rather the part, this holistic, rather the partial.
38:17.900 --> 38:24.472
[SPEAKER_02]: understanding of the world, is a kind of wisdom, and that wisdom needs to come into science.
38:24.872 --> 38:34.710
[SPEAKER_02]: But also science is also good in a holistic sense, good at shaman recolids, we have step on hardening, teaching holistic science, what a wonderful!
38:34.690 --> 38:48.752
[SPEAKER_02]: and we had the first job company, we had James Lovelock, we had the Rupert Schall Lake, all these people are scientists and they still embrace consciousness and spirituality and compassion and love and kindness.
38:49.133 --> 38:56.344
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we have some great examples of scientists embracing wisdom and we have
38:56.324 --> 39:03.396
[SPEAKER_02]: like Stamutti and they wise and very spiritual person also, they scientific and they analytical person.
39:03.676 --> 39:16.358
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there are good examples of such being who had been able to bring those opposing factors, seemingly opposing factors together and make a holistic worldview.
39:17.587 --> 39:19.690
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Einstein will be one of those for you.
39:19.770 --> 39:21.493
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I would say Einstein.
39:21.513 --> 39:22.555
[SPEAKER_02]: Einstein was a musician.
39:22.955 --> 39:24.578
[SPEAKER_02]: He played beautiful piano.
39:24.858 --> 39:26.721
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a great admirer, Mahatma Gandhi.
39:27.081 --> 39:29.645
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a very religious, pretty cool man.
39:29.746 --> 39:30.727
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a wise man.
39:30.827 --> 39:33.031
[SPEAKER_02]: He was, he embraced with him.
39:33.051 --> 39:35.374
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
39:35.434 --> 39:36.576
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a fascinating.
39:36.736 --> 39:37.678
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a great pleasure.
39:37.698 --> 39:39.240
[SPEAKER_02]: I so love you to see Rabbi.
00:00.031 --> 00:09.147
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
00:16.315 --> 00:25.568
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, my name is David Lourimer, and I'm here on the Wise Scientist's podcast with my old friends, Ravi Ravindra, and Satish Kumar.
00:26.109 --> 00:41.310
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I've known Ravi even longer than I've known Satish, but it's a long time in any event, and I want just to put into our conversation this quotation from E. F. Schumacher, but after whom obviously Schumacher College was,
00:41.290 --> 00:46.601
[SPEAKER_00]: named, which is humanity is now too clever to survive without wisdom.
00:47.343 --> 00:53.275
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a really sage remark, so I'm going to pass over to Rabia at this point to take it forward.
01:03.160 --> 01:09.468
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe I should really begin by first of all very much admiring this remark of Schumacher.
01:11.351 --> 01:21.404
[SPEAKER_01]: And because there is a bit of a real problem that the humanity is got too clever, largely based on scientific knowledge.
01:22.125 --> 01:31.598
[SPEAKER_01]: And these days, of course, AI, which is, of course, also using scientific knowledge and getting more and more information.
01:31.848 --> 01:38.057
[SPEAKER_01]: that unless we can totally reform something or change something, there is a real crisis.
01:38.297 --> 01:39.980
[SPEAKER_01]: I completely agree with this.
01:40.661 --> 01:42.784
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Satish Kumar would agree with me.
01:42.804 --> 01:45.508
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me first of all ask Satish something.
01:46.629 --> 01:53.319
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of his remarks that he makes is about that in the spiritual tradition.
01:55.122 --> 02:01.551
[SPEAKER_01]: Somehow the implication of your remark
02:02.594 --> 02:06.119
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to question that completely, both sides.
02:06.199 --> 02:09.023
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, let me begin with the science being objective.
02:10.244 --> 02:31.453
[SPEAKER_01]: More than anybody else probably, Emmanuel Kant at the end of the 19th century wrote a very important book called The Critique of Pure Reason, in which he very specifically speaks about, that science can never be objective, scientific knowledge, simply because
02:31.822 --> 02:36.808
[SPEAKER_01]: And if some other creatures were looking at it or some other animals, they will have a very different science.
02:36.908 --> 02:38.690
[SPEAKER_01]: So science is not objective.
02:39.451 --> 02:43.415
[SPEAKER_01]: But the great value of science is that it is inter subjective.
02:44.276 --> 02:49.142
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody at Oxford can say something and then somebody at Harvard can challenge it or question it.
02:49.682 --> 02:51.004
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is inter subjective.
02:51.344 --> 02:58.993
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas the whole emphasis in the spiritual teachings is to be completely free of me, me, me, me.
03:00.037 --> 03:07.826
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, a standard remark of Christ in the Gospel of Matthew, unless you leave yourself behind, you cannot be a follower of mine.
03:08.607 --> 03:22.502
[SPEAKER_01]: And anywhere else also, the whole call is, for example, in the yoga sutra, Padangli describes what is samadhi, and the actual expression is svarupasunya, when one is completely emptied of oneself.
03:23.403 --> 03:29.250
[SPEAKER_01]: So in the spiritual teachings, the connection is really completely objective.
03:29.467 --> 03:40.825
[SPEAKER_01]: Sadly, it is not inter-subjective because every other human being has to be at the same level as the Buddha or Christ to be able to check this, so it's not inter-subjective in an ordinary sense.
03:41.386 --> 03:54.546
[SPEAKER_01]: Although, of course, even in the scientific world, it's inter-subjective only when a scientist at Harvard can have a similar equipment and a similar ability to be able to check what the guy at Oxford said.
03:54.526 --> 04:03.458
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the inter-subjectivity is a problem everywhere, unless there is an equivalent quality, equivalent knowledge they cannot check it.
04:03.939 --> 04:09.306
[SPEAKER_01]: But really the whole call in the spiritual teachings is totally free of me, me, me.
04:09.707 --> 04:14.453
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, a completely objective knowledge, objective understanding.
04:14.974 --> 04:16.416
[SPEAKER_01]: So here, begin with this.
04:17.662 --> 04:21.307
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a very good, very profound comment, Ravi.
04:22.769 --> 04:27.476
[SPEAKER_02]: I could say that science is supposed to be objective.
04:28.177 --> 04:32.163
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so the reality is supposed to be subjective.
04:33.265 --> 04:36.770
[SPEAKER_02]: Rather than a complete list of objective and subjective.
04:37.211 --> 04:44.361
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, by point, you are interpreting rightly, I agree with you, but this is not how the world
04:44.341 --> 04:46.986
[SPEAKER_02]: understand science as I know.
04:47.867 --> 04:56.061
[SPEAKER_02]: In the world they say that, for example, Rene Decker said that what cannot be measured does not exist.
04:56.902 --> 04:58.826
[SPEAKER_02]: Only thing exists which can be measured.
04:59.367 --> 05:03.554
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like I think therefore I have the thought and measurement.
05:03.574 --> 05:08.442
[SPEAKER_02]: And so from that point of view, matter is an object.
05:08.422 --> 05:24.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, science and record is a kind of scientist for science and philosophy of the pure reason, and pure rationality, and pure science, and science basically means knowledge, science does not mean objective knowledge.
05:25.056 --> 05:28.202
[SPEAKER_02]: But the way science has been hijacked,
05:28.182 --> 05:39.462
[SPEAKER_02]: and are interpreted as if it is only objective knowledge, meaning something what can be measured, but can be quantified, what can be analyzed, which can be defined, then it's a science.
05:39.762 --> 05:50.140
[SPEAKER_02]: If it is something like love, compassion, kindness, generosity, courage, imagination, these are all right chemistry of the brain and they don't exist.
05:50.120 --> 06:11.246
[SPEAKER_02]: And so in our universities, in our schools, in our college, all the scientific education and science with knowledge, it completely deprived of poetry, music, art, culture, imagination, creativity, courage, compassion, kindness, all these subjective, which are not measurable, that not quantitative, but qualitative.
06:11.686 --> 06:14.430
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is why I say, it's supposed to be.
06:14.790 --> 06:19.536
[SPEAKER_02]: But you are absolutely right,
06:19.516 --> 06:29.908
[SPEAKER_02]: and true sense of spirituality, they both embrace each other and you can not have an object without some object and you can not have something without object because you can not separate them.
06:30.389 --> 06:38.118
[SPEAKER_02]: And I totally agree with you that this ego, me and mine and I, all these are very separational.
06:38.459 --> 06:46.148
[SPEAKER_02]: And when we are all relationship, everything in kind of a world exists only
06:46.128 --> 06:49.911
[SPEAKER_02]: separately, and even not even a particle cannot exist by itself.
06:50.232 --> 06:53.935
[SPEAKER_02]: Things can exist only when they come together in relationship.
06:54.316 --> 07:00.441
[SPEAKER_02]: So basically, I agree with you, but this is why I say maybe it's supposed to be objective and supposed to be subjective.
07:01.242 --> 07:04.805
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I just come in very quickly with a historical remark?
07:05.486 --> 07:05.646
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
07:05.806 --> 07:15.375
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is that the 17th century philosophers,
07:15.727 --> 07:18.911
[SPEAKER_00]: They made this distinction between primary and secondary qualities.
07:19.492 --> 07:20.333
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
07:20.353 --> 07:26.220
[SPEAKER_00]: And the primary quality was what you could weigh, measure, see, quantify, exactly as you've been talking about.
07:26.761 --> 07:31.928
[SPEAKER_00]: And the secondary quality was everything which we now call subjective, including consciousness.
07:32.388 --> 07:32.989
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
07:33.009 --> 07:37.735
[SPEAKER_00]: And therefore, the direction of explanation, this is an important point.
07:37.715 --> 07:46.064
[SPEAKER_00]: and subsequently went from matter to consciousness, from mind, from brain to mind.
07:46.785 --> 07:56.796
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that the primacy of matter was established by this idea that that matter is subject to these, this approach of primary qualities.
07:57.897 --> 07:59.719
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
07:59.739 --> 08:04.684
[SPEAKER_01]: And related with this also the remark that Satish just quoted,
08:04.799 --> 08:13.427
[SPEAKER_01]: Attributed to Descartes, but also quoted by Max Planck and many others, unless it can be measured, it cannot be real.
08:14.148 --> 08:33.507
[SPEAKER_01]: But just to remind to you, a remark of Shankara and Indian philosopher, whatever can be measured cannot possibly be real.
08:34.482 --> 08:47.043
[SPEAKER_02]: but can be participated in, can we say that Shankaracharya was also wrong, as Descartes was wrong, because that's a unrealistic thinking.
08:47.103 --> 08:49.367
[SPEAKER_02]: You separate mind and matter.
08:49.427 --> 08:53.093
[SPEAKER_02]: You separate consciousness and objective reality.
08:53.814 --> 08:58.802
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the universe is made of these two elements together.
08:58.782 --> 09:00.985
[SPEAKER_02]: matter and spirit exist together.
09:01.505 --> 09:04.849
[SPEAKER_02]: No spirit can manifest without matter.
09:05.149 --> 09:11.557
[SPEAKER_02]: My body can only exist when they just stole and spirit and consciousness there.
09:12.018 --> 09:15.802
[SPEAKER_02]: And consciousness as spirit and soul cannot manifest without my body.
09:16.202 --> 09:21.609
[SPEAKER_02]: So Sankracharya says that what cannot be measured, what can be measured, does not exist.
09:21.629 --> 09:22.630
[SPEAKER_02]: It is also wrong.
09:22.610 --> 09:23.731
[SPEAKER_02]: at that cartridge long.
09:24.172 --> 09:31.341
[SPEAKER_02]: I think so, dualistic thinking, the metal and spirit up to separate things and either a metal exists or spirit exists.
09:31.661 --> 09:38.389
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the birth exists together and subjective and old objective together, quality and quantity together.
09:38.430 --> 09:44.517
[SPEAKER_02]: Without this kind of your holistic approach, I think Shankaracharya was also long at that cartridge long.
09:47.585 --> 09:55.853
[SPEAKER_01]: But they are not necessarily concerned only when one is measuring something or connecting them together.
09:55.914 --> 09:59.277
[SPEAKER_01]: They are really referring to what is the fundamental reality.
09:59.377 --> 10:07.445
[SPEAKER_01]: From the perspective of Shankara, the fundamental reality is consciousness or spirit from which everything else emerges.
10:07.565 --> 10:14.993
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you want to measure something or look at something that has emerged, then of course you need the matter to enter into it.
10:14.973 --> 10:22.303
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but you don't this idea this one is a fundamental reality and the other is a non-fandom and also superficial reality.
10:22.583 --> 10:26.729
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also completely wrong because everything is fundamental.
10:27.169 --> 10:31.415
[SPEAKER_02]: Matter is as holy and sacred and the spirit is a holy and sacred.
10:31.715 --> 10:33.758
[SPEAKER_02]: You cannot deny matter.
10:33.738 --> 10:42.693
[SPEAKER_02]: matter is sacred mountains and trees and forests and birds and animals and oceans and a soil without that life cannot exist.
10:42.713 --> 10:50.886
[SPEAKER_02]: So the idea that matter is not a fundamental reality and all these previous fundamental reality is completely dualistic if you take from the Buddhist point
10:50.866 --> 11:06.187
[SPEAKER_02]: of you or a J-point of you, you will see that matter and spirit exist together and then they have to travel together like me and Yang, Chinese, Taoist, the same thing, they say Yin and Yang go together, they don't together, you cannot separate them.
11:06.828 --> 11:17.903
[SPEAKER_01]: But given the fact that they go together, how is it that most of the scientific enterprise has not been very much interested in the spirit?
11:18.743 --> 11:41.140
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that is what I think, and I must take a view because scientists were rebelling against a very kind of very dogmatic religious kind of tradition particularly in the West when church dominated the thinking and a creative fear and a fear of the hell, a fear of desire for heaven.
11:41.120 --> 11:49.993
[SPEAKER_02]: and a God, a punishing God, and that punishing God will send you in a prodigatory and then and give you punishment to go to hell or go to heaven.
11:50.013 --> 11:56.822
[SPEAKER_02]: That kind of big dogmatic Christianity became so dominant and that was science, it was built against that.
11:56.842 --> 12:06.736
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was a kind of re, they were better, rightly, because I think this idea of punishment that God will punish you and they will say, hell, and you will hell and reward you to go to heaven.
12:06.977 --> 12:09.220
[SPEAKER_02]: That was also
12:09.200 --> 12:12.324
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, science rebelled against that.
12:12.644 --> 12:13.866
[SPEAKER_02]: But they went too far.
12:14.166 --> 12:23.798
[SPEAKER_02]: And they denied the spirituality, they denied the kind of the consciousness, the denied what it does not exist in objective and measurable and quantifiable ways.
12:24.178 --> 12:32.288
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the Christian went on one extreme and denied matter and put God in the head.
12:32.268 --> 12:38.315
[SPEAKER_02]: as a judge of everything and then science where the other extreme and then denied consciousness and spirituality.
12:38.656 --> 12:50.250
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you and I have now the new task to bring these two together in a very balanced way so that metal and spirit can dance together, consciousness and a physicality can dance together.
12:51.832 --> 12:56.517
[SPEAKER_01]: But how do we actually promote this notion in the society?
12:58.920 --> 13:00.402
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, first of all,
13:00.550 --> 13:02.112
[SPEAKER_02]: we have to communicate.
13:02.953 --> 13:07.518
[SPEAKER_02]: At this moment, the communication in our education is all one sided.
13:07.558 --> 13:17.450
[SPEAKER_02]: All our education is left, and we spend billions and billions of dollars and pounds and euros around the world.
13:17.791 --> 13:22.877
[SPEAKER_02]: Every school, every university, every college, they only teach you the left, the most other brain.
13:23.117 --> 13:29.545
[SPEAKER_02]: What can be quantified, what can be managed, what can be administered, and what we analyze,
13:29.525 --> 13:32.871
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we have to start, how do we do it?
13:32.932 --> 13:41.207
[SPEAKER_02]: We start with education and we have to bring the education left, how we develop the blade, and the right hand is the brain together.
13:41.488 --> 13:48.782
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to say science and spirituality, science and wisdom, and you have very rightly and beautifully put in your paper.
13:48.762 --> 13:51.306
[SPEAKER_02]: The science and wisdom have to dance together.
13:51.587 --> 13:55.092
[SPEAKER_02]: You can not have wisdom without science, as you cannot have science without wisdom.
13:55.413 --> 14:06.872
[SPEAKER_02]: So your paper is very good paper, and I think that paper should be circulated every school, every university, and all the professors and lectures should take that paper to the heart.
14:08.287 --> 14:23.248
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think this is the, as you, I'm sure, no, very ancient idea, ishwarkrishna of Sankhikarika, actually explicitly says, Spirit cannot act without the body, and the body cannot act without the Spirit.
14:23.589 --> 14:24.690
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right, yes.
14:25.431 --> 14:28.816
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and this is ishwarkrishna's remark.
14:28.836 --> 14:30.178
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's coming back.
14:30.719 --> 14:35.426
[SPEAKER_01]: He uses the word purshayan, prakritya, just translate it this into Spirit and body.
14:35.446 --> 14:37.028
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
14:37.733 --> 14:45.955
[SPEAKER_02]: But now the question is, you know, Puru Shara Placuti is a kind of, to some extent, stankya, that's what you did.
14:46.456 --> 14:50.747
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the stankya means science in a way.
14:50.913 --> 14:53.257
[SPEAKER_01]: And it really means counting.
14:54.058 --> 14:56.322
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's not counting.
14:56.342 --> 14:58.887
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not counting.
14:58.907 --> 15:02.473
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think Purushana Prakati together.
15:02.794 --> 15:06.340
[SPEAKER_02]: And Purushana is the kind of consciousness.
15:06.680 --> 15:08.223
[SPEAKER_02]: And the Prakati is the matter.
15:09.145 --> 15:10.246
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
15:10.267 --> 15:14.233
[SPEAKER_01]: Now the question really is, how do we promote this in the schools?
15:14.394 --> 15:15.756
[SPEAKER_01]: Because everybody,
15:16.698 --> 15:21.766
[SPEAKER_01]: is occupied with how can I gain more if I can get better marks?
15:21.846 --> 15:25.071
[SPEAKER_01]: I can go to a better college, got a scholarship, blah, blah, blah.
15:25.131 --> 15:30.919
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what right from grade one, I noticed this even with my own grand children.
15:31.140 --> 15:32.762
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what they are taught in schools.
15:33.523 --> 15:33.964
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:34.703 --> 15:52.202
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a very good question, and I started Schumacher College in order to counter that kind of education and Christian Murthy started schools in India, in England, and also in California to counter that kind of education, which is very reductionist and very mechanistic.
15:52.643 --> 16:00.171
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the one way is to start new schools because it's better to light the candle than because the darkness,
16:00.151 --> 16:05.297
[SPEAKER_02]: better to start something good example, set a good example that in just criticize the old system.
16:05.517 --> 16:07.079
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was a one way to do it.
16:07.480 --> 16:15.990
[SPEAKER_02]: But still, these are very small experiments and they are based kind of, and they have a small influence at the grassroots level.
16:16.290 --> 16:19.214
[SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of people thinking and learning about these things.
16:19.494 --> 16:28.605
[SPEAKER_02]: But the mainstream society, all over the world, 200 nations around the world, they are following one as a kind of,
16:28.585 --> 16:30.629
[SPEAKER_02]: authoritarian education.
16:30.689 --> 16:44.594
[SPEAKER_02]: They're only left brain, rational, scientific, materialistic education that being given every country, whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, communist, capitalists, whatever the country you are.
16:44.834 --> 16:45.936
[SPEAKER_02]: So only one
16:45.916 --> 16:51.664
[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of think in the consciousness, the reality, relationship, all these are out of the window.
16:52.004 --> 16:55.148
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we are living in a very dark time, the Kaliyuga.
16:55.549 --> 17:00.456
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, I don't know what how we can change it, but we can do something small.
17:00.576 --> 17:07.325
[SPEAKER_02]: And since what I did, as starting Schumacher call it, as Christianity schools bring holistic education.
17:08.807 --> 17:13.273
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think Christian Marti would say, because you knew him very well?
17:14.823 --> 17:29.600
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what he would say, I think very much emphasizes really in a way deep down in every serious teaching, great emphasis on impartial self study.
17:30.421 --> 17:40.493
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
17:41.671 --> 18:05.521
[SPEAKER_01]: Because then one can begin to see what calls me, what stands in my way, and then also one would discover that although I may think that I have a divine element in me but I forgot that I also have the demonic element in me because in principle, the whole external universe is mirrored inside me.
18:06.883 --> 18:10.648
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
18:12.299 --> 18:18.947
[SPEAKER_01]: even the greatest teachers like Christ is tested by Satan, Buddha is tested by Mara.
18:19.648 --> 18:39.353
[SPEAKER_01]: They cannot not be tested, similarly anybody else, whoever seriously undertakes any kind of spiritual inquiry or a spiritual study, which would fundamentally really require an impartial self-study, and then one would find the demon in one.
18:39.721 --> 18:50.524
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was rather struck by a fact, for example, both in Bali, the word Mara, and in Hebrew, the word Satan, the both mean obstacle.
18:50.690 --> 18:53.633
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I was very impressed to meet that in your paper.
18:54.013 --> 18:56.335
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the obstacle, yes, yes.
18:56.355 --> 18:58.057
[SPEAKER_01]: So what stands in my way?
18:58.697 --> 19:02.161
[SPEAKER_01]: So in a way to encounter my Satan can be helpful.
19:02.521 --> 19:05.123
[SPEAKER_01]: It can point out what stands in my way.
19:05.604 --> 19:06.064
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
19:06.084 --> 19:12.830
[SPEAKER_01]: Then also, I feel increasingly that there is no reason against to be against Satan either.
19:12.850 --> 19:15.353
[SPEAKER_01]: Satan has a lot of helpful things he can do.
19:16.774 --> 19:20.157
[SPEAKER_01]: He has a lot of activity,
19:21.841 --> 19:25.186
[SPEAKER_01]: Christ didn't ask the Satan to go to hell or to disappear.
19:25.246 --> 19:30.033
[SPEAKER_01]: He asked him to help from behind, get the behind me, Satan.
19:30.814 --> 19:36.682
[SPEAKER_01]: Similarly, the Buddha actually said before his enlightenment, Mara, you are a part and parcel of myself.
19:37.343 --> 19:38.144
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
19:38.164 --> 19:41.830
[SPEAKER_01]: To acknowledge that these elements are also in us.
19:42.270 --> 19:49.080
[SPEAKER_01]: If the whole universe is in me, why imagine that Mara is not in me, or Satan is not in me?
19:49.060 --> 19:56.929
[SPEAKER_02]: No, that's wonderful, Ravi, because you know, this is the Yin Yang principles, the kind of darkness and the light exists together.
19:56.969 --> 19:59.552
[SPEAKER_02]: You cannot have just light 24 hours.
19:59.872 --> 20:01.334
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to have a darkness as well.
20:01.414 --> 20:03.656
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a kind of universal principle.
20:03.756 --> 20:11.585
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what Jesus Christ and Buddha recognized and they embraced the both sides, the negative and positive Yin Yang.
20:11.845 --> 20:13.327
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's eternal truth.
20:13.447 --> 20:18.072
[SPEAKER_02]: And I very much agree with you that this is how we have to embrace and know
20:18.052 --> 20:25.991
[SPEAKER_02]: say the obstacles are wrong and the Satan is wrong or something, we have to work with them and so I agree with you.
20:27.174 --> 20:28.798
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I ask at this point?
20:29.399 --> 20:34.491
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean to become wiser is surely to become more aware.
20:35.247 --> 20:39.454
[SPEAKER_00]: because this is part of the result of your self-inquiry process.
20:39.975 --> 20:43.421
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was struck by a remark by Jung.
20:43.501 --> 20:51.115
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been reading the background interviews to memories, dreams, reflections, which has just come out from Princeton University Press, Jung's life and work.
20:52.036 --> 20:52.137
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:52.157 --> 20:56.985
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, I have this extraordinary drive towards awareness.
20:57.725 --> 21:24.458
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says that the, and that's the, they're dealing with the shadow side and, and shit, putting, that it's, it's through that, that the light emerges, but it's, and I think this is one of the great shortcomings of contemporary life, including, you know, on the international stage, is that we're, we're terribly unaware of the shadow, and we projected onto others.
21:24.590 --> 21:31.158
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the political stage, we projected on to our so-called enemies.
21:31.338 --> 21:35.723
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you say, well, I'm the good person, you know, I'm the worthy.
21:35.763 --> 21:39.487
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm on the good side, and this man over here, he's just evil.
21:40.368 --> 21:44.453
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, fight, we have to fight him, we have to get rid of him, we can't listen to him, we can't negotiate with him.
21:45.094 --> 21:47.176
[SPEAKER_00]: We've just got to wipe him off the face of the earth.
21:47.597 --> 21:47.797
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:49.519 --> 21:50.140
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
21:50.160 --> 21:50.580
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
21:52.433 --> 21:56.335
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I would say it's very important to embrace the shadow side.
21:57.007 --> 22:10.106
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is that we are, I mean, for example, we every day have a bath, but then we get against sweaty next day as we have to bath again.
22:10.607 --> 22:12.630
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a kind of part of life.
22:12.730 --> 22:13.812
[SPEAKER_02]: So shadow side.
22:14.212 --> 22:19.440
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we are all very kind and compassionate and we try to be more kind and more compassionate.
22:19.720 --> 22:24.347
[SPEAKER_02]: But still, anger, fear, anxiety, these things exist in everybody.
22:24.327 --> 22:32.635
[SPEAKER_02]: No one person is completely free of fear or anger or anxiety or whatever.
22:32.975 --> 22:38.059
[SPEAKER_02]: So shadow side is an existential part of our being.
22:38.440 --> 22:45.626
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, like Ravi said, Jesus Christ and Buddha, they embraced the shadow side.
22:45.947 --> 22:48.249
[SPEAKER_02]: And we all need to embrace the shadow side.
22:48.929 --> 22:50.290
[SPEAKER_02]: And then deal with it.
22:50.751 --> 22:51.972
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course,
22:52.036 --> 23:10.887
[SPEAKER_02]: In our lives, we try to emphasize a little bit more of the positive side and more kind of constructive side, more spiritual side, but at the same time, we have to recognize that these marah, these obstacles of life exist in us and if these were it.
23:12.830 --> 23:13.892
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think, Rami?
23:14.615 --> 23:24.053
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I think it is important to recognize this, that's the reason I mentioned that both even Christ and the Buddha have to face this, why won't I have to face this?
23:24.193 --> 23:25.496
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
23:26.277 --> 23:29.383
[SPEAKER_01]: But since you mentioned Carl Jung here, a little bit
23:29.735 --> 23:42.831
[SPEAKER_01]: you probably know that his last book, which was actually just put out on the desk there, has many and many excerpts from the yoga sutras and from the Bhagavad-gita written on the side.
23:42.911 --> 23:44.673
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was obviously influenced by it.
23:45.274 --> 23:54.846
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was very surprised by the fact that when he visited India, he was asked by several people to visit Raman, who we regarded as a great sage.
23:54.906 --> 23:58.290
[SPEAKER_01]: We call him Raman Maharishi,
23:58.692 --> 24:03.537
[SPEAKER_01]: but he's refused to go to see him because he said he may be too much influenced by him.
24:03.637 --> 24:04.478
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you believe this?
24:05.159 --> 24:12.647
[SPEAKER_01]: He did not go to see him because he did not want to be so much influenced by him.
24:14.148 --> 24:16.851
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really interesting.
24:16.891 --> 24:28.463
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me tell you a story in here which I just read yesterday because Andrew Harvey's got a new book and in it he relates his story about his father
24:28.527 --> 24:41.351
[SPEAKER_00]: because he was brought up in India, his father who visited Ramana Mahashi often, and one time when he was there, there was a drunk making rather a nuisance of himself around the Ashram.
24:42.193 --> 24:49.827
[SPEAKER_00]: And the minder said, we've got to get him off the premises and said, Ramana Mahashi said, no, no, no, bring him here.
24:49.807 --> 25:10.819
[SPEAKER_00]: bring him here and so he sat down in front of Ramana and about after about 10 minutes he had tears streaming down his face and the point that he was making was the gaze was the the drishty the the emanation the compassion the the seeing
25:11.272 --> 25:19.713
[SPEAKER_00]: coming out of this sage, and he took him on as a disciple and he became a guardner, but I love that story.
25:19.733 --> 25:20.535
[SPEAKER_02]: That's wonderful.
25:20.615 --> 25:21.317
[SPEAKER_02]: That's wonderful.
25:21.357 --> 25:24.184
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's what I call radical love.
25:25.295 --> 25:34.863
[SPEAKER_02]: They love when you love someone who is good and stantly and wise, and you like and you agree, that's a moderate love.
25:35.504 --> 25:54.340
[SPEAKER_02]: But like Ramana Mahashi, embracing somebody who is not so good, who is not perfect, he has some shortcomings, and yet, I mean, that's what Jesus Christ did.
25:54.320 --> 26:23.128
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think radical love, it's a love, particularly love those who are kind of down to them or lost or bewildered or confused or sinners or whatever they are and loving them and helping them through love, you transform, through hate, you can kill, but through love, you can transform.
26:24.779 --> 26:28.504
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, there is a remark of Raman Maharishi, which has always struck me.
26:28.545 --> 26:32.771
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody asked him, how should we treat the others?
26:33.612 --> 26:34.774
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there are no others.
26:35.455 --> 26:51.478
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
26:52.437 --> 26:54.820
[SPEAKER_02]: wisdom is born of love.
26:55.782 --> 27:06.457
[SPEAKER_02]: When you're loving your heart, then with them emerges, could be doubt, love is the ground, the soil in which the flowers of wisdom grow.
27:07.158 --> 27:09.020
[SPEAKER_02]: Without love, they can be no wisdom.
27:11.343 --> 27:14.648
[SPEAKER_00]: So then you could ask the question, how does science become more loving?
27:15.134 --> 27:17.256
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good question, that's a good question.
27:17.496 --> 27:27.827
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to start loving, as Ravi said, there's no other science has to see that connectedness, the relationship, love is a kind of relationship.
27:28.367 --> 27:37.997
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when the science sees that it's not an object, it's not separate and I'm not in charge, I'm not in control, I'm not in dominating position.
27:38.437 --> 27:40.319
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in relationship with the natural world.
27:40.619 --> 27:42.441
[SPEAKER_02]: And the moment science is,
27:42.421 --> 27:50.869
[SPEAKER_02]: using nature as a kind of resource for making money or making experimental, making tools or technology or something.
27:51.370 --> 27:57.315
[SPEAKER_02]: But Ramana Mahashit, so nature is sacred and no other.
27:57.636 --> 28:03.501
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, we are nature, nature is not just mountains and forests and animals, we are nature.
28:03.822 --> 28:05.523
[SPEAKER_02]: That is unity of blood, there's no other.
28:05.844 --> 28:11.449
[SPEAKER_02]: When the unity of blood and the science has to embrace that,
28:11.429 --> 28:21.103
[SPEAKER_02]: they can cultivate with that love of nature and love of yourself and love of all living beings, that is a fundamental tool to cultivate wisdom.
28:23.747 --> 28:29.135
[SPEAKER_01]: But really wisdom is, in any case, a subtle combination of truth and love.
28:29.776 --> 28:31.679
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
28:31.699 --> 28:35.505
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not otherwise it's not in nothing to do with wisdom.
28:35.945 --> 28:37.708
[SPEAKER_01]: If either one of them is missing.
28:38.329 --> 28:40.332
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
28:40.432 --> 28:41.233
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
28:41.888 --> 29:00.474
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean in my view, if you have love, then you discover truth as well, because in our Jane tradition, and also maybe Hindu tradition, the five principles, the first principles in non-violence, which is a kind of love.
29:00.934 --> 29:02.457
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is true to a second.
29:02.677 --> 29:05.561
[SPEAKER_02]: Aimsa Satya, aimsa comes first.
29:06.022 --> 29:09.246
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have a love in your heart, then you discover truth.
29:09.226 --> 29:19.666
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, and kind of subject another, of course, that is first, and then this consciousness, and then another is a kind of joy and beauty.
29:20.367 --> 29:23.633
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that's a kind of combination.
29:24.454 --> 29:25.817
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a kind of,
29:25.797 --> 29:33.834
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree with you, the truth and love are kind of a companions, life companions, they cannot be separated.
29:33.874 --> 29:36.119
[SPEAKER_02]: If there is no truth, they cannot be not love.
29:36.340 --> 29:37.963
[SPEAKER_02]: If there is no love, they cannot be true.
29:38.003 --> 29:39.807
[SPEAKER_02]: They go together, don't you agree?
29:40.765 --> 29:48.293
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, no, well, I agree that they go together, but the question is, the whole scientific enterprise doesn't bring it together.
29:48.734 --> 30:10.097
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
30:10.432 --> 30:11.454
[SPEAKER_02]: non-pilation.
30:11.574 --> 30:11.915
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
30:12.155 --> 30:13.197
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good calculation.
30:13.337 --> 30:13.758
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
30:13.778 --> 30:14.419
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm interesting.
30:14.619 --> 30:32.170
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason I'm saying that because, in fact, in Canada, we had a very strange occasion that our Supreme Court of Canada, at one stage made a decision later on, they had to retrieve it, that if a woman feels assaulted, she is assaulted.
30:32.420 --> 30:42.147
[SPEAKER_01]: So even if no damage has been done to her, nobody has touched her, but the way somebody looks at her or even says to her, unless you marry me, I'm gonna kill myself or whatever.
30:42.709 --> 30:47.863
[SPEAKER_01]: So violation is a much stronger expression than violence.
30:47.843 --> 30:52.692
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I would agree that violation is good.
30:53.072 --> 30:56.018
[SPEAKER_02]: So, no, I am sorry, it's non-biolation.
30:56.559 --> 30:56.779
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
30:56.839 --> 31:02.109
[SPEAKER_02]: And a non-biolation is a kind of positive side of non-biolation is love.
31:02.690 --> 31:10.003
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I said, when you have a love in your heart, then you discover truth and you follow the truth.
31:10.996 --> 31:21.555
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, what's so interesting in this conversation is I would relate this back to the Peter Doonov, three fundamental principles, which happened to be love wisdom and truth.
31:22.176 --> 31:22.376
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:23.158 --> 31:28.227
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, love brings, love is from life, and it brings warmth into the heart.
31:29.329 --> 31:31.613
[SPEAKER_00]: Wisdom is associated with light in the mind.
31:32.094 --> 31:32.334
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:32.354 --> 31:35.620
[SPEAKER_00]: Truth brings freedom and strength to the will.
31:37.118 --> 31:48.410
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in addition, if there's a five or two extra principles, because I have a pentagram around my neck, and they are goodness and justice.
31:49.190 --> 31:49.691
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
31:49.711 --> 31:52.834
[SPEAKER_00]: So love wisdom, truth, goodness, justice.
31:53.395 --> 31:55.737
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a pretty good set of principles myself.
31:56.017 --> 31:57.218
[SPEAKER_02]: They're good.
31:57.299 --> 32:04.806
[SPEAKER_02]: David, I have a little bit of, kind of worry about the word justice.
32:04.826 --> 32:05.607
[SPEAKER_02]: Because
32:06.565 --> 32:07.514
[SPEAKER_02]: Love!
32:09.653 --> 32:12.096
[SPEAKER_02]: is a kind of higher than justice.
32:12.196 --> 32:16.321
[SPEAKER_02]: But justice is something I give justice, so to speak.
32:17.162 --> 32:20.566
[SPEAKER_02]: And I make justice, and I make it just society.
32:21.146 --> 32:24.530
[SPEAKER_02]: Justice is a kind of consequence of love.
32:24.850 --> 32:27.854
[SPEAKER_02]: If we love and be just, we cannot be unjust.
32:28.615 --> 32:29.996
[SPEAKER_02]: We cannot harm anyone.
32:30.677 --> 32:32.900
[SPEAKER_02]: But if we are harming, there's a lack of love.
32:32.920 --> 32:37.585
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would say the way justice is used
32:37.565 --> 32:46.353
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think it can also be used, the Bulgarian, I think it can also be translated as equity.
32:47.253 --> 32:53.819
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and the great thing about justice and the way that he understands it is its universal.
32:54.660 --> 32:56.221
[SPEAKER_00]: It applies equally to everybody.
32:56.702 --> 32:57.182
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
32:57.202 --> 33:00.785
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can't have the selective justice that has to be universal.
33:01.326 --> 33:07.251
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
33:07.737 --> 33:16.095
[SPEAKER_01]: from the old testament to the new testament, or really if the basic notion of in the Jewish tradition to Christian tradition.
33:16.836 --> 33:20.765
[SPEAKER_01]: At a depth, I don't mean super-fusually Christians have been ruling the world.
33:20.825 --> 33:22.148
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the kind of thing I mean.
33:22.929 --> 33:27.940
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the basic level, the shift really is from justice to love.
33:28.747 --> 33:45.144
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because just this, I mean in our modern world, every country has judges and courts and the justice, if you go break the law, then you are given punishment and send to prison.
33:45.505 --> 33:47.650
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a kind of how justice is,
33:47.917 --> 33:55.670
[SPEAKER_02]: seen to be a kind of judgmental in the Bible, Jesus said judge not so that you may not be judged.
33:55.691 --> 34:08.052
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think we have to find a slightly different word which, what I understand what you mean and I think we have to have a society make the thought exploit each other and the thought impose.
34:08.032 --> 34:10.997
[SPEAKER_02]: just order, also society.
34:11.097 --> 34:13.321
[SPEAKER_02]: I can sympathize with that totally.
34:13.581 --> 34:19.811
[SPEAKER_02]: But the way the word had been misused, I would say misused is what he made.
34:20.112 --> 34:23.958
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, and if you have a love, that justice will flow.
34:23.978 --> 34:25.981
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, that is true with every word.
34:26.021 --> 34:27.504
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, the word love.
34:27.924 --> 34:29.667
[SPEAKER_01]: They were in that whom making love.
34:29.847 --> 34:30.949
[SPEAKER_01]: What the hell does that mean?
34:31.009 --> 34:32.031
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:32.467 --> 34:47.187
[SPEAKER_01]: So, many different levels and, yeah, so one has to be clear that there are many different levels of each of these words, by the way, just changing the words is not going to help.
34:47.207 --> 34:51.072
[SPEAKER_01]: What is going to help is change in ourselves?
34:51.693 --> 34:52.374
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
34:52.394 --> 34:53.395
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
34:53.375 --> 35:06.533
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, a real honest inner transformation that is required and that first of all requires a serious self-study without approval or discipline just to see.
35:08.736 --> 35:13.442
[SPEAKER_02]: In Sanskrit we have a word for self-study Swadhya.
35:14.249 --> 35:15.070
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
35:15.650 --> 35:32.288
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, self-study is to self-awareness and a kind of self-knowledge, no diselt, whoever I am, I am not just a kind of name or whatever it is.
35:32.368 --> 35:33.650
[SPEAKER_02]: I am more than that.
35:34.170 --> 35:37.834
[SPEAKER_02]: And each and every being is a kind of divine being.
35:37.894 --> 35:43.260
[SPEAKER_02]: And without that self-understanding and self-awareness and self-knowledge,
35:43.240 --> 35:43.961
[SPEAKER_02]: who am I?
35:44.603 --> 35:45.224
[SPEAKER_02]: Who am I?
35:45.264 --> 35:48.270
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a kind of question that we don't ask.
35:49.052 --> 35:50.715
[SPEAKER_02]: And we don't answer that question.
35:50.755 --> 35:51.316
[SPEAKER_02]: Who am I?
35:51.777 --> 35:59.933
[SPEAKER_02]: I just think I'm the Indian, I'm a Jay, I'm a Satish, I'm a Jitter, I'm this, I'm that we put labels upon ourselves and we don't go beyond that.
35:59.913 --> 36:25.161
[SPEAKER_02]: So, when you go for self-study and self-awareness and self-knowledge, then you go beyond your labels and beyond your names and beyond your kind of words even as you said, but go to the deeper meaning and that I would say comes into all the, I mean, although I agree with you, the obstacles are there, did Mara and Satan's are there, but at the same time also the divine being there, at the same time.
36:25.495 --> 36:29.018
[SPEAKER_01]: But you see, this is how the degeneration takes place.
36:29.038 --> 36:36.224
[SPEAKER_01]: If you look at the contemporary Sanskrit English dictionaries, yes, under the word Swadhyay.
36:36.725 --> 36:40.208
[SPEAKER_01]: The first translation is studying sacred books.
36:41.009 --> 36:42.630
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll need to take my word for it.
36:43.491 --> 36:45.633
[SPEAKER_01]: Swadhyay literally means self-study.
36:45.653 --> 36:46.694
[SPEAKER_01]: There can be no object.
36:46.714 --> 36:48.495
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I understand self-study.
36:49.056 --> 36:50.597
[SPEAKER_01]: Self-awareness.
36:50.617 --> 36:54.000
[SPEAKER_01]: But you look at the contemporary dictionaries.
36:54.352 --> 37:01.347
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember on one occasion I mentioned this to Krishan Murthy and I have never heard him use this expression in public.
37:01.367 --> 37:07.581
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, damn it sir, what is the point of studying sacred books unless you study the book of yourself?
37:08.082 --> 37:08.563
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
37:10.130 --> 37:11.392
[SPEAKER_00]: They do.
37:11.872 --> 37:15.998
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what, I think that's actually quite a good question.
37:16.058 --> 37:19.402
[SPEAKER_00]: You are supposed to bring this conversation to a close.
37:20.063 --> 37:24.969
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there any other sort of final remarks you'd like to make?
37:25.130 --> 37:30.096
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we haven't solved the problem as to how to make science.
37:30.236 --> 37:30.737
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is that?
37:30.777 --> 37:33.100
[SPEAKER_00]: But we have shed some light on it.
37:33.080 --> 37:48.743
[SPEAKER_02]: I think and and and we've also emphasized the importance of education but what we have tried to explore not maybe find that answer but we have to explore is that science has to embrace wisdom
37:49.685 --> 37:51.888
[SPEAKER_02]: and the wise people have to embrace science.
37:52.368 --> 37:53.550
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I understand.
37:53.910 --> 37:59.037
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, when you have those two together, dancing together, that's a dance of Shiva.
37:59.657 --> 38:10.551
[SPEAKER_02]: And Shiva's dance is a dance of masculine feminine, opposites come together, dark and light, come together, Satan and divine come together.
38:10.951 --> 38:17.920
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the kind of wisdom to see the whole rather the part, this holistic, rather the partial.
38:17.900 --> 38:24.472
[SPEAKER_02]: understanding of the world, is a kind of wisdom, and that wisdom needs to come into science.
38:24.872 --> 38:34.710
[SPEAKER_02]: But also science is also good in a holistic sense, good at shaman recolids, we have step on hardening, teaching holistic science, what a wonderful!
38:34.690 --> 38:48.752
[SPEAKER_02]: and we had the first job company, we had James Lovelock, we had the Rupert Schall Lake, all these people are scientists and they still embrace consciousness and spirituality and compassion and love and kindness.
38:49.133 --> 38:56.344
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we have some great examples of scientists embracing wisdom and we have
38:56.324 --> 39:03.396
[SPEAKER_02]: like Stamutti and they wise and very spiritual person also, they scientific and they analytical person.
39:03.676 --> 39:16.358
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there are good examples of such being who had been able to bring those opposing factors, seemingly opposing factors together and make a holistic worldview.
39:17.587 --> 39:19.690
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Einstein will be one of those for you.
39:19.770 --> 39:21.493
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I would say Einstein.
39:21.513 --> 39:22.555
[SPEAKER_02]: Einstein was a musician.
39:22.955 --> 39:24.578
[SPEAKER_02]: He played beautiful piano.
39:24.858 --> 39:26.721
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a great admirer, Mahatma Gandhi.
39:27.081 --> 39:29.645
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a very religious, pretty cool man.
39:29.746 --> 39:30.727
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a wise man.
39:30.827 --> 39:33.031
[SPEAKER_02]: He was, he embraced with him.
39:33.051 --> 39:35.374
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
39:35.434 --> 39:36.576
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a fascinating.
39:36.736 --> 39:37.678
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a great pleasure.
39:37.698 --> 39:39.240
[SPEAKER_02]: I so love you to see Rabbi.
