“No push over”

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You're listening to When Humanitarians Kill, which is a podcast investigation into one of Australia's deadliest medical scandals, HIV and hepatitis C, tainted blood transfusions and tainted blood treatments.
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And can you believe there are tens of thousands of Australians that have been impacted by this nightmare?
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And many decades-long criminal coverer.
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Well, here I am on Friday, the 31st of October.
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It's uh just gone midday, and I'm with Lynn Hatch, who's the mother of uh Martin Hatch.
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Uh, Martin, of course, I've spoken about him in my statement, the statement of Charles Mackenzie, uh, who was I was chosen as the Australian witness uh to the United Kingdom's largest ever legal inquiry called the Infective Blood Inquiry.
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And Martin Hatch was central to my statement on behalf of Australia because I had gone to school with him uh in the same school as him in the 1980s, St.
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Andrew's Cathedral School here in Sydney.
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And it was during that time in the mid-1980s that uh, as I've explained in various interviews and in my statement to the UK, that Martin, even though he had a mild version of a bleeding disorder called hemophilia, uh, was provided with uh tainted blood treatments for his hemophilia.
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He ended up initially being infected with what was called non-A, non-B hepatitis.
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Uh it had a name change in the late 80s to hepatitis C.
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It's a deadly virus and considered to be uh well it is one of the leading causes for liver transplantation in Australia today.
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And of course, he was also infected with HIV and developed AIDS.
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Well, here I am, uh and here we are in 2025 uh with Martin's uh mother, Lynn.
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Now, of course, uh Martin very sadly passed away in late 1989.
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And Lynn, uh well, first of all, it's so good to see you again.
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Thank you.
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And Lynn, they actually uh you had a court case for Martin in the late 80s uh to try and get some sort of recompense for uh the fact that he'd been infected with these viruses and HIV, and they actually gave the verdict.
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Uh the fact the case failed, and that the the verdict came the same day that was it as Martin's funeral?
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Is that correct?
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6th of January uh 6th of January 1990.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Well, I've just got to say this, it's been a uh a privilege of a lifetime uh for me to eventually get to know you as I have in recent times, because as I've explained to you, in the 1980s I came down with uh Bone Marrow failure.
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Uh it was called the disease was called severe aplastonemia, which is was made famous by John Travolta, you know, the American actor.
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He appeared in a TV movie, I think, made in the mid-1970s, about a the boy in the bubble.
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And uh there was a a famous uh uh couple of kids who had the disease before me, and they lived their entire lives in isolation in a bubble.
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And in fact, the Sydney Morning Herald put out a story about me a few years ago saying how I'd experienced isolation before COVID, because I had to be put in a kind of proverbial bubble.
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You know, I was kept away from people and all of that kind of thing.
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And I'd gone to Martin's school and I'd had an adverse reaction to a medication that was given to me for acne, which led to my bone marrow failing, right?
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And I was told that I couldn't produce blood.
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So the only way that I would ever survive, even though my prospects are very bad, I was told that I had an 80% chance of passing away within three months of my diagnosis, unless I achieved the only cure, which was a bone marrow transplant.
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And back in the 1980s, they were quite complex, you know, so they weren't like uh a a golden ticket necessarily.
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Uh I couldn't get one of those, so I really did think I was terminal and I was extending my life by receiving blood.
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But of course, I knew that the blood I was receiving would more than likely be tainted because I knew that Martin, your son, and had acquired uh HIV from a tainted blood treatment, and I knew that because your family had had to sacrifice your rights to privacy to go public on this issue in order to try and get answers for Martin and everybody else.
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So I read those newspaper articles, and and you were, you were on the front page of Australia's News, weren't you, in the 80s, late 80s?
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Yes.
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Martin actually wrote a story about himself con contracting the AIDS virus, and it was on the front page of every major newspaper in Australia.
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And you and Martin actually filed and and your family filed a case over this hemophilia HIV matter.
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And and when did you file that?
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That was the late 80s?
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Um, it's been towards the end of 1988, 89.
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And and it was the first case of its kind, wasn't it, in Australia?
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Yes.
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And I remember because you see, I was in hospital at the time, and I I this I was living vicariously through Martin because I I thought I was a a goner, and so I was really uh hoping that there could be uh a a good victory for in terms of justice and uh that he could uh overcome this.
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But that case, I mean, it w it was just so high profile, being the first case of its kind.
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Of course, HIV and AIDS was uh i in the world at that time was a very scary thing.
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There were, of course, some regrettable things with some discrimination and some some horrible aspects, but there are also cover-ups.
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And that's what most of the people don't know.
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When we think about HIV, we often think about, you know, the the the sad case of of gay men uh passing away or becoming very ill, or perhaps people uh who've uh used drugs or you know, celebrities like Rock Hudson and all the rest of it.
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And we sort of think that the whole of HIV was a cover-up.
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And I just want to say that, you know, there was a health minister in the 1980s at federal level called Neil Blewett.
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Yes.
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And for me, he infamously there's a video that we can show people in the future, and I'm gonna talk about uh an exciting podcast that we've got coming up.
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But uh Neil Bluett, uh who was the original health minister to cover up the infected blood scandal and to cover up the full uh ramifications of HIV and our blood supply and hepatitis C in our blood supply, he said that HIV just fell out of the clear blue sky, which gives you the idea that there was nothing that they could have done to limit the damage that this thing could have done.
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And we know that the evidence totally disagrees with them.
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The UK's infected blood inquiry totally disagrees with them.
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The evidence is out that they knew even before the scourge of HIV affecting Australia's blood supply and affecting things like hemophilia treatments that Martin was given, this factor VIII blood treatment, which was a mass pull treatment, wasn't it, Lynn?
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Yes, yes.
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Do you know how those put treatments are made up?
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Well, when Martin was infected, they take the blood from a lot of different people.
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Blood plasma.
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Yeah, and and and make it concentrate.
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So there can be as many as hundreds or perhaps even thousands of different donors.
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And this is the point.
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With a blood transfusion, you're just getting one unit of blood, and that is just from one blood donor.
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But when you're getting a treatment like Martin got, you're getting potentially hundreds and scores of thousands, hundreds of different donors, potentially, right?
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So the risk of one of those donors having something is is multiplying.
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Yes, of course.
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Okay.
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If you were at a casino, you probably wouldn't want to take that bet, particularly in the 1980s.
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And what we now know is that health authorities from 1980 onwards knew that these uh blood treatments were 100% of the time contaminated by hepatitis.
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And that one of those hepatitis, non-A, non-B, was in fact deadly.
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They knew that.
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They knew that at that time in 1980, for example, they they knew that they had done biopsies on children as young as five, and they had liver fibrosis and liver psyrosis, which is uh normally indic indicative of someone who's an alcoholic.
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Well, these doctors knew there's no way these little children are alcoholics.
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So how could they get this liver damage?
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And they determined it was from their treatments, these haemophilia treatments.
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This is in the 1970s, because these hemophilia treatments were contaminated by hepatitis.
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A hundred percent of hemophilia treatments used in Europe, used in America, used in Canada, used in Australia in 1980 were contaminated with hepatitis.
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So before they knew this.
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And we have documents that where Australian health authorities, including the laboratory that made the products for Martin, in 1980, they had people uh telling them, look, in Germany, they're making these hemophilia treatments for their hemophilia patients and their patients with bleeding disorders, and they're using what's called viral inactivation techniques.
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They're using a thing called heat sterilization.
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HIV and hepatitis can't survive heated blood plasma.
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Now you can't do that for blood transfusions.
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The only way that you can make blood transfusions safe is to screen them for viruses, okay?
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But for blood plasma and for mass-pooled hemophilia treatments like Martin had, you can manufacture them and make them safe.
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But Australia refused in 1980.
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They said, no, we don't believe we've got the same problem here in Australia.
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Well, that was rubbish.
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They knew that they did.
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They just didn't want to spend the increased costs, okay?
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Now, had they done that, and had they done what we now know, uh, that Australia, and particularly hemophilia special specialists, and particularly in the UK, where we got so much of her advice from, they said that when you have a new hemophilia child that's diagnosed, a new child with mild hemophilia, they are not to receive mass-pooled hemophilia treatments.
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They are not to receive factor VIII.
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Now, the reason for that was because of the well-known risks of hepatitis.
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Okay?
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So they were to receive another form of treatment until these hemophilia treatments could be seen to be safer from the inevitability of hepatitis.
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So a young child whose life was not at risk from their bleeding disorder should not then be infected with a deadly form of hepatitis.
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That was the logic.
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However, if you'd had someone who has severe hemophilia and they'd been treated with blood products, say from the 60s, 70s, and 80s, then they didn't have that same policy.
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They continued them on the factory because of the thinking was, well, they are severe hemophilia, they're adults and they might bleed to death, and we've already exposed them to hepatitis anyway, so we should go on.
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But what they said was we shouldn't do this to what they called virgin hemophiliacs.
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These are children who've never received or never been exposed to mass-donated pulled products.
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Okay?
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So had they followed Lynn, their own safety guidelines, Martin would never have been infected with HIV.
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That is the position that our lawyers are taking.
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That is the position, when I say our lawyers, I'm talking about the lawyers for infected blood Australia, which you're finding out about.
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Now, Lynn, so we've just talked about the fact that I grew up, uh well, I'll tell you this now, I grew up idolizing you for the fact that you were no pushover and that you were forthright, and you wanted to get answers for little boys like Martin and other children in Australia.
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You and your family ran the first case, it was high profile, it it would have been very uh demanding.
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Okay.
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So recently you were contacted by the ABC by a reporter claiming to work for the 730 report.
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Now, this reporter, y what what was the gist of her initial email to you?
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Well, she wanted to talk to me about Martin uh and what we had experienced.
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But I had never heard from the ABC ever in like thirty odd years or more.
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Um I thought it was quite unusual.
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And also given that Ita Butrose had had a huge article in the Herald on the previous Saturday, and then she was on television again, and I had written to the journalist who uh who wrote that article and expressed my.
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This is Greg Callahan of the Good Weekend, the associate editor of the Good Week Committee.
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He put a a front page article out uh last week, didn't he, or a a week or so ago.
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And it was Arta Buttrose on the front page of the Good Week Meekend magazine who, if you don't know everybody, whoever's listening, in the mid-1980s, Arta Buttrose was appointed the chair of a national AIDS committee and has been lauded as a hero of HIV.
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And they claim that Australia had a world-renowned response to HIV, which we contest.
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But there she was on the front cover of this Good Weekend magazine with no apologies, right?
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So you wrote to that journalist.
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Well, I was appalled.
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I've got to say, I read it on the Saturday, the Herald on the Saturday, uh late Saturday, and so so I could get my thoughts together, I wrote to Greg Callahan, I sent him an email, on Sunday.
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I was absolutely shocked, appalled, distressed, angry.
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I mean, in the article, it lawed I mean, they were painting Aita Batros to be a saint.
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We did not find her to be a saint.
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She never reached out to us ever, ever, ever.
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Uh, it's all very well, and I'll say this now, I don't have a problem with the gay community.
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I have a friend who's gay.
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Um, but it's all very well to say in those days, you know, in the 80s, that, you know, she went to Africa, she went here, she did this.
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I don't know why she had to go to Africa, but anyway.
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Oh, they put the photo of Shelby Arian, go on.
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Anyway, she went to Africa, she held the hands of Trevor Burrus.
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They're recreating Lady Diana.
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This was the Australian bureaucracy using Art of Bunchers to recreate a kind of Lady Diana.
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Well, anyway, uh when I read that article, I was extremely upset, very, very upset.
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Um, you know, it's all very well to say that she held the hand of men dying with AIDS, and I mean you know that's all very well.
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But not once did she ever, ever reach out to us, ever, ever, ever.
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Now, this Greg Callahan, uh he replied to your email, didn't he?
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Yes, it was a ridiculous reply.
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Absolutely.
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What were the sort of things he said in his reply?
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He said to you, like uh let me just sorry to interrupt here, Lynn, but it's my understanding that uh if we could actually get you to answer this, you told Greg that you'd actually been to meet Ita with Martin.
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That was Martin's decision.
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Yes.
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Um and he was how old at the time?
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He would have been about let me just think, probably about fourteen.
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And as you've made clear, he was a very bright boy, he wanted to be a QC.
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And for anyone, you know, Lynn was just talking about how he'd written a piece about what it was like to live with AIDS, and you could tell from what he wrote that he was a very intelligent young man, you know, he he wanted to be a QC.
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And and he wanted to go and meet um uh Ida Buttrose because you told me that the specialist at Ramwick Hospital had said that Ida Buttrose was coming.
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Yes.
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And she'd already been quite public about wanting to do things about HIV.
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Yes.
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So he would have assumed, and as I said, the bureaucracy made her out to be Australia's version of Lady Diana.
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So perhaps he would have assumed that she might have given him some of her time, seeing as he was a little boy with earths.
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He did assume that, and I assumed that as well.
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Um I've got to say, you know, many, many, many years ago, when my children were young, and Ida Butchos was an up-and-coming well-known journalist, you know, the editor of the Women's Weekly and so forth, I th had quite a bit of time for her.
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I thought, yes, this is a woman who we all need to to look at.
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But um when she when we went this day to the hospital, she walked in with a sort of half smile on her face.
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I'll I can never I'll always remember it.
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And I think from my memory, the doctor, who I you know, remain nameless here, uh said, Oh Martin's come down from Bathurst today.
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And I had driven down from Bathurst, which is a long way from Bathurst to Randwick, um, with a sick child in the car, and she did not so much as say, Oh, Martin, very nice to meet you, or Martin, that was a long drive.
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Nothing, nothing.
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Incredible.
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And it it is such a contrast to the image that's painted by Greg Callahan because he wrote back to you and he said things like, Why didn't you go and ask the doctor about why he hadn't spoken to Ida?
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And then then you also, you know, why didn't you do this?
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Why didn't you do that?
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And it just seems odd because Ida i is the the queen of HIV.
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I mean, she's Lady Diana.
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Wouldn't she have the good sense to to reach out to a keep of those?
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She didn't.
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There were other kids there as well, uh whom who now I don't really remember remember who was there, but there were other children as well.
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Um but no, it was a pointless exercise.
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And Martin was really upset that we had driven all the way from Bathurst and she didn't so much as acknowledge us.
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Well, and of course, Martin, you know, I remember growing up reading that during the court case, it's my understanding that is it is it am I right in in remembering that the judge actually visited him at his hospital or his bedside?
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The the and and the barristers and the And that was at the time that was a you c kind of unique thing because very unique.
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They knew that they'd have to take his evidence by his bedside.
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They do.
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So that gives you an indication, ladies and gentlemen, of just how ill young Martin was.
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And you'd think that Ita Butrose would have better, I don't know, uh a better understanding of of of of her role, and that her role isn't just about PR, it's not just about, you know, saying that she's held hands of people, it is actually about delivering what she says she's delivered, which is this uh apparent world-renowned response to HIV and compassion, especially for little children dying of AIDS.
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But we also mentioned um that we found evidence that in the 1980s, Ida Buttrose, now I've sent you that evidence, Lynn, she was part of a uh uh not only was she on the the chair of the National Advisory Council on AIDS, she was appointed by the 1980s uh health minister, Labour Health Minister Neil Blewart.
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Okay.
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So she's on this committee.
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And what amazes me is that even though she's on that committee, she was doing commercials for the Australian Red Cross Lifeblood, Australia's blood banks, and she said that the reason they need more blood donors in 1985 is because they're purifying the hemophilia treatments.
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Now now you had two sons.
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Martin wasn't your only child with hemophilia.
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You had another son.
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And tell me something.
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When was it confirmed that he had acquired this non-A, non-B or this Hep C virus?
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What yeah?
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Well, it's identified by this, it was Hep Cep Cran uh when Aaron was doing the HSC, he became quite unwell.
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You know, he was anyway, he saw a GP and her take on it was, oh, they're all drinking too much.
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And I said to Aaron, Well, Aaron, what you know, what are you doing?
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She, you know, you had a liver, there was a liver issue.
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He said, We're not you know, he wasn't.
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Anyway, so he did the HSC, and in about 1990 or 1991, he had to have some wisdom teeth out.
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:52.000
And he went to Randweek, Prince of Wales, to have them out, and they discovered that he had Hep C.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:58.160
Now he was infected with Hep C after Ida Buttrose had said that the blood that was being purified.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:19:59.519
She said that in 1985.
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:12.720
And he was in he and in 1985, the doctors uh from Camperdown had told us, and I can remember it as clear as it was yesterday, I was on the phone to them, I was in Baths, they were in Sydney.
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:19.759
They came, they said that Martin had tested positive for non-A non-B hepatitis.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:20.799
There you go.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:27.599
And I said, because I'm not a medical person, I said, well, what does non-A non-B hepatitis mean?
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:34.400
Oh, well, it's either it's hepatitis A or hepatitis They never mentioned the word hep C ever, ever.
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:41.119
But, but but they also said at that time that Aaron was uh negative.
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:48.559
So the other boy that you had with hemophilia, in so Martin is found to have this hep C or non-A and non-B in 1985.
00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:51.519
It's a deadly virus, it's leading cause of liver transplantation.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:55.680
But the other boy with hemophilia, your other son, he's not found to have that.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.920
He's found to be clear, but he's found to have it in 1991.
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:06.799
So what that tells us is that in between 1985 and 1991, he is exposed.
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:14.160
Well, after the so after ITA says that the hemophilia treatments have been purified, he is exposed.
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.079
Now I need to tell you something as well.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:20.799
I get contacts, we have been contacted, and I'm delighted, Lynn, that you're now on board with us.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:27.680
We've known each other for some time now, but we're going to work together on on getting securing the finale to all of this.
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:31.359
Of 40 years of cover-up, we want justice, we want an inquiry.
00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:33.440
We're going to be talking about that in a moment.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:47.519
But you know, I have not seen over since I ITA made that sweeping statement about blood safety in 1985, which is 40 years ago, I've not seen her correct that statement, not even once.
00:21:47.920 --> 00:22:03.519
Actually, it's interesting you should say that because Greg Callahan uh when he replied to my email, he said that um, you know, he did agree that if that if she'd made that statement and he said, and I mean he's saying if she made it, well she did make it, not if she did.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:04.240
She did, yeah.
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:08.319
But if she had made it, it would have been on the advice of the medical profession.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:08.880
Right.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.559
You see, here's my problem.
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:12.000
Why has she not corrected that?
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:20.960
Because she's been accepting a lot of prose as Australia's hero of HIV for her role on this National AIDS committee in the 80s.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.880
But you see, the problem I've got is we've I get a lot of contact from the public, right?
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:32.160
I've got people with HIV who got it from hemophilia treatments who get no access to any uh financial assistance today in 2025.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:33.039
I know all about that.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:33.440
Right.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:33.680
Okay.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:37.839
Now I have one lady's case where she's forced to visit food banks.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:38.559
Oh dear.
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:39.039
Okay.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:40.799
And she has HIV.
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:44.960
ITA has been in an expenses scandal.
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:51.200
Um she left the ABC 18 months ago, and we know that she used to chastise staff.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:58.240
She used to send emails and aggressive uh messages to staff of who's been parking in my car parking space?
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:03.599
And we now know that after she left, that she went above and beyond her own expense accounts.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:06.640
So she spent over the top, a bit like Zali Stegl.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:19.039
Uh, I'm not saying she goes over the top or that she's doing anything corrupt or is overspending, but I'm just saying she certainly got more of a presence in the North Shore than the previously uh Tony Abbott, her previous the previous member had.
00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:21.920
They certainly like to have a bigger presence.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:27.279
And ITRA, I think, enjoys uh the chauffeur-driven uh jet set lifestyle, right?
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:45.920
Now, I find that sickening when we've still got Australians who acquired HIV from the blood supply, who are still not getting answers and still not getting, in some cases, the health care that they think they need, and also are forced to visit food banks while Ida and her friends are quaffing champagne.
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.440
But Greg, uh I forget the journalist's name.
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:50.240
Greg Callahan.
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:55.119
Greg Callahan, he said that, well, you know, the health department should do all the correction.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:56.079
But I disagree.
00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:09.200
I think Ida Buttrose should correct her statement and come clean with the public and let people know that there was an outbreak of hepatitis C in our blood supply after she made that statement in 1985.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:13.519
And this gets back to uh Justice Michael Kirby.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:19.359
Now, Justice Michael Kirby is one of Australia's most esteemed former High Court judges.
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.519
He's presided over some famous uh uh human rights matters.
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:28.079
In 1986, uh uh uh the Kirby Institute was established.
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.599
It had a different name then, but today it is the Kirby Institute.
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:43.599
And it was established uh and has been funded to the tune of tens of millions of dollars to collect infectious disease data, okay, to to give us alerts about things like outbreaks and what have you.
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:50.480
Well, they had that data about the hepatitis, the outbreak that happened after Ida buttros had assured Australians, right?
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:57.039
So they know that hundreds of perhaps thousands of Australians were infected after their establishment in 1986.
00:24:57.039 --> 00:24:59.839
And yet, and Justice Michael Kirby is their patron.
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:10.480
And yet, even though they've received tens of millions, they've never once issued an alert or a recommendation that there should be an inquiry into hepatitis C in the blood supply.
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:20.160
I find that remarkable that Justice Michael Kirby is a high court former High Court judge, and he and his organization, even though they've had public funding, have never called for an inquiry.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.440
It seems to fit a pattern.
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:32.400
And the other pattern that seems to fit here is you mentioned that your other son, who found out he had hep C in 1991, you mentioned he found out by going to the dentist.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:35.680
Well, he was at the hospital in the hospital actually having wisdom teeth out.
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:35.920
Right.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:41.599
And because he was a hemophiliac, um, he couldn't just sit in the chair at the dentist and have three wisdom teeth out.
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:42.799
He had to be in hospital.
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:44.240
That's where that's where he found out.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.599
Okay, so he his specialist though didn't directly tell him, did he?
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:52.720
Kind of i i it it wasn't his hect treating hematologist that that communicated with him about his status, was it?
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:53.599
No, no.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:54.960
Okay, um tell me something.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:00.400
But but excuse me interrupting, but this stage Aaron was no longer a child, so he was over 18.
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:02.799
But no, he's he's certainly didn't.
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:03.359
Okay.
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:05.359
But he would have been infected.
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.279
We we we presume that he was infected between 1985 and 1991.
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:09.759
Oh, yes.
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:11.519
So he would have been a minor at that time, correct?
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:12.799
Oh, when he was infected, he was.
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.440
Right, so you you're telling me No, no, no.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.720
How old was he in 1986?
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:25.599
Uh 1986, he would have been about um he was in um let me just think.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:26.799
He would have been 14.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:28.079
So he was a minor in law.
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:29.359
So he was so okay.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:30.880
So he was a minor.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:36.400
So his specialist, his hematologist did not com tell him about his his status.
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.079
No, because they said he didn't have it.
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:38.880
Okay, okay.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.039
Now let's talk about your other son, Martin.
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:41.599
Yes.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:44.240
Did his treating specialist.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.400
He told you that Martin had non-A, non-hepat non-A, non-B hepatitis.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:48.880
Yes, yes.
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:51.039
But they didn't tell you about the HIV, did they?
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:51.839
No, most definitely.
00:26:52.400 --> 00:27:01.200
So you went outside of your Martin's own treating doctors and you had his HIV status confirmed privately with a a another doctor, didn't you?
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:02.480
Well, not quite.
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:03.839
That's not quite right.
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:08.559
Um I wasn't happy with what was happening at with with Martin's specialist.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:09.519
At which hospital?
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:11.519
At um Camperdown, Children's Hospital.
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:13.279
There were two specialists there.
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:17.759
There was a senior hematologist, what they call a senior hematologist, and he's offsider.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:25.440
Anyway, I went to Julian Gold at the AIDS clinic only because I'd read about Julian Gold, Dr.
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:26.000
Julian Gold.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:33.759
But the key point I'm making here is I I I'm and I I want the audience to hear this, is it wasn't your specialist that told you to go to Julian Gold, was it?
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:34.319
Oh no, no.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:35.599
So what happened with Julian Gold?
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:35.920
Continue.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.319
Well, Julian Gold um was uh really fantastic, marvellous.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.880
He was very he is a very nice man.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:48.720
Um and he said to me, I suggest you go and see, am I allowed to say the name?
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:49.440
Yes, of course.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:51.279
Um I suggest you go and see Dr.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:28:07.359
Ziegler at uh at um Prince of Wales, and uh which I did, and I think from my memory, I I I initially saw him by myself and explained the situation, and then he said, bring Martin in.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:12.079
Uh and so I took Martin and they did lots of tests.
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:20.400
And actually, by this stage, I've got to just add this Martin was so fed up with hospitals and doctors and needles and all sorts of things.
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:21.839
When we went to see Dr.
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:23.839
Ziegler, he actually sort of ran away.
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:24.319
I wasn't saying.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:26.799
Yes, he ran away in the hospital.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:27.680
I did similar.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:27.920
Yeah.
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:41.039
Um but anyway, he eventually had the tests, and within a very short space of time, probably I'd say 24 hours, maybe 48 hours, but fairly quickly, Dr.
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:48.960
Ziegler told me, and Robert, my husband, wasn't there, uh he was up in Batis.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:51.119
Uh he told me Martin had HIV.
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:52.079
Wow.
00:28:52.240 --> 00:29:11.119
Wow, and at and that time that was uh that would have been a um Well it was it was and of course we didn't we as the parents we didn't know enough about HIV to think is Martin going to survive this?
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:18.799
But you know, having read the papers and the press and so forth, we knew that people with HIV were dying.
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:19.839
Wow.
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:21.599
How how how do you feel?
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:23.200
Like how how did you feel at that time?
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:24.000
Like were you terrible?
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:32.319
We just we were just couldn't you know, I mean, uh two boys are out even now I get upset about it.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:33.839
I mean they were our life.
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:35.440
Um it was dreadful.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:44.400
And the the suffering that Martin had as a teenager with HIV, I I can't describe it.
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:46.000
And to have I mean, and Dr.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:52.559
Ziegler, he was absolutely wonderful, marvellous, and to this day we are still on very good terms.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:53.519
Um, Dr.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:58.799
Ziegler, we went for a couple of years not telling Martin that he had HIV.
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:06.480
Um But Doctor Ziegler said you need to tell Martin because Martin was intelligent, he wasn't silly.
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:20.160
Uh so we did eventually tell him, but to have to tell a then about fourteen year old boy that he had AIDS was not not not the best thing you ever have to do in your life.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:30.400
And of course Aaron, our other son, I mean it even while he didn't have HIV there for the grace of God, he he could have had it as well.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:43.839
But it was very it was very t taxing for Aaron because his brother, who he was very close to, and and apart from the fact that they were close, they're only eight, twelve months apart in age, you know, it was terrible.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:55.599
And then the the thing is, is that Martin died of AIDS in that 1989, and it was only after that that that um that your other son got sick with hepatitis.
00:30:55.599 --> 00:31:02.160
So he's he's coping with the grief of losing Martin, but at the same time he's sick with hep C this deadly virus, right?
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:10.880
Well he had Aaron when you know they he was sick with hepatitis C, and he had Aaron is cured of hep C, I've got to say.
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:12.640
What year was he cured?
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:14.880
Um mmm.
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:23.039
I've lived here for ten years, is probably ten or so years ago.
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:28.559
So but so for for pretty much 30 years or 20 years, he he had that virus, didn't he?
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:35.279
And that's because just for anyone who doesn't know, uh hepatitis C uh in the 1990s was very difficult to treat.
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:39.519
That they had some treatments, there was one called interferon, and people had a terrible time.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:43.039
And if the person had scarring on their liver, interferon wouldn't work.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:47.759
Um it was six months of what patients described as chemotherapy-like side effects.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:48.880
Aaron had a terrible time.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:49.839
A terrible time.
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:54.000
But he had so he was given the original interferon treatments didn't work.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:54.559
It didn't work.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:56.000
So how long was he on it for?
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:58.559
Oh, Charles, a fair length of time.
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:04.000
So it wasn't so they had these, to anyone interested, they came up, they they had these terrible treatments.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:06.400
And and for anyone, I I've just got to tell you this.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:08.640
I lived my life, okay, for decades.
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:16.880
I didn't have those treatments, and the reason I didn't have them was because I saw what they did to people and I just felt that I'd rather die than go through that, okay?
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:33.279
Um, but they have these new generation of hepatitis C treatments, antiviral treatments that have come about in recent years in the last 10 years, and fortunately, um your other son was cured via those, as have many other people in our group, Infected Bot Australia.
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:38.000
Um I have I'm still got I've still got hep C and I haven't taken the treatments.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:43.839
I recommend everybody who thinks they might have hep C or be at risk go to see their GP.
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:46.559
I recommend everybody take the treatments, I really do.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:54.480
The reason I haven't had them is because I have bone marrow failure and and some major medical problems, and I think they're gonna kill me before the hep C does.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:22.480
Um and so, okay, now so uh through all of that, we've we've now got this situation where you'll we go Martin dies in 1989, uh, your other boy uh uh uh goes through the problem of hep C and a parliamentary inquiry into medically acquired HIV commences uh via the uh New South Wales Parliament.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:28.640
You were invited to be one of the participants along with your husband.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:29.279
Yes.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:56.079
And you also had the you became acquainted to the late and very famous uh and much loved Aussie author Bryce Courtney, who he had a son called Damon, who, like Martin, was infected with HIV and developed AIDS from as a result of receiving a tainted mass-pooled hemophilic mass-pool donated blood donation pool treatment called factor A.
00:33:56.079 --> 00:34:01.839
And you attended this uh uh uh hearing for a number of days.
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:02.720
For a number of days.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:10.559
Could you just give us a a breakdown of of what that what that felt like, what that was about, and anything that came up for for you and Bryce Courtney at that time?
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:21.840
Well, uh looking back, um it was this as if we were we the parents of these kids and we were the problem, like we were the problem.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:24.400
The government wasn't the problem.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:27.599
And the people on the is it the panel, is that what you call it?
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.159
The panel the committee the committee is a better word, yes.
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:35.760
The people on the committee, and I can remember some of them, they were not on our side.
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.039
But there was no way they were on the side.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:37.840
I know the feeling.
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:38.800
It's like a kangaroo court.
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:41.440
They were there's no way they were on our side.
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:47.519
But anyway, towards the end of the inquiry, they changed the terms of reference.
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:52.559
Off the top of my head, I can't remember exactly how they changed them, but they did.
00:34:52.559 --> 00:35:10.639
Robert, my husband, and Bryce Courtney, both you sort of were, you know, on a witness stand, so to speak, both said to them, um, you know, what right do you have to change the terms of reference at this point of time towards the end of the inquiry?
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:16.559
And they said, and I remember the the woman who said it, they said, Mr.
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:17.679
Hatch and Mr.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:21.360
Court uh Courtney, we're here to ask the questions, not you.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.440
So they just ignored that.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:24.400
They ignored that.
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:28.480
But then the next thing that they did, they brought Michael Kirby in.
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:30.559
Now just go stop there for a second, Lynn.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:32.639
Uh when you say Michael Kirby, who's Michael Kirby?
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:33.840
Oh, Justice Michael Kirby.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:36.800
Okay, this is this very famous esteem judge, okay?
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:37.679
Yes.
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:39.679
Uh they brought him in at the last minute.
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:42.800
So do okay, so just sorry to let you in, just for the audience.
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:46.239
So the inquiry was going for some weeks, was it?
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:46.639
Yes.
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:54.719
And then towards the end, and in or around the same time that Justice Kirby is brought in as a witness, yes, the terms of reference change at that time.
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:55.280
Yes, yes.
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:56.159
Continue, please.
00:35:56.480 --> 00:36:12.400
Anyway, so they brought uh Justice Michael Kirby in, and I've got to say I didn't really know who he was initially, but he did have um a voice on the human rights he was uh uh commissioned at that time.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:27.440
Anyway, they brought him in to um uh to give his opinion on whether people who medically acquired AIDS and people who got AIDS through other means, whether they there should be a difference.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.679
Because we were seeking compensation.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.320
Not not just us, but a lot of people.
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:41.119
Anyway, his opinion was, and this is in Hansard, so I'm not making it up, his opinion was no, they should be shouldn't be treated differently.
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:48.400
Uh people who medically acquired AIDS and people who got it from various other means uh should be all be treated the same.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:37:01.119
And so when um when Robert and Bryce Courtney, because Robert and Bryce Courtney were sort of the main spokespeople, um anyway, when they asked the question, well, you know, what's Michael Kirby got to do with the price of eggs?
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:04.559
Well, really, they sort of said, What's he got to do with the price of eggs?
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:06.239
Why has he been brought in?
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:10.719
And once again they said, uh, we're here to ask the questions, not you.
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:14.400
Anyway, you know, Michael Kirby's a gay man.
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.679
Uh I mean whether so can I just interrupt there?
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:34.719
Did you so you you just mentioned before when when you were at this inquiry, okay, that had been going for some weeks before, just at the tail end, just at the the the you know the death of Disney towards the end, they ch they changed the goalposts and and they changed the terms of reference, and they bring in a judge to a political inquiry.
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:38.159
I've never heard a thing like it, but I don't know whether he was a judge of the time.
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:41.760
Okay, and okay, so we don't know if he's judged time, but he was very senior in law.
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:42.800
Wasn't he a senior figure?
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:44.159
So tell me something.
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:48.800
Did you know that he was a a pronounced homosexual or did you did like he was a very prominent gay?
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:49.840
Oh, yes, I knew.
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:50.239
I knew.
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:53.039
So was that had that been because I I was quite young at that time.
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:55.679
Oh no, we we knew, and so did Bryce Courtney know.
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:59.199
Because because at that time, you see, I'm watching on all of this, right, as this happening.
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.920
I didn't know much about Kirby at that time.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.239
I didn't know that he had been a prominent gay man.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:05.199
But you did know that.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:06.079
Oh, we knew that.
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:24.639
And Bryce Courtney, actually I remember Bryce Courtney and Robert and myself standing in Parliament House in the we weren't actually, we were in a room up somewhere not exactly in it wasn't actually in the cha in Parliament House, it was a room attached to Parliament House.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:36.719
I can remember Bryce Courtney and Robert and I standing there, and Bryce Courtney saying, This is absolutely not not not not tolerable.
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:38.079
It it shouldn't be happening.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:39.519
And we couldn't do anything about it.
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.360
They wouldn't stop, they wouldn't change.
00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:42.960
The the inquiry wouldn't.
00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:48.639
Now, I've just got to say to you, I find this to be some of the most remarkable evidence I've ever heard in my life.
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:53.039
I've been an investigator of this scandal and other medical scandals for many decades.
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:54.960
I just want to say this.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:04.000
Anyone senior in law, you know, the the legal fraternity, I don't think they particularly um I don't think they encourage what's called as self-representation.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:04.400
Okay.
00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:07.199
So in recent years there've been no, they hated it.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:12.400
Right, yeah, because you know, perhaps, look, let's be fair to the courts here for a moment.
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:17.039
Um the courts have a a lot on their plate, there are a lot of cases to be heard.
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:23.519
So if any Tom Dick and Harry thinks that they can do a job, yeah, represent people and they can waste the court's time, okay?
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:26.480
So it's frowned upon for good reason at times, okay.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.280
Um but I've got to tell you something.
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:40.239
Lawyers doing other lawyers out of work is quite rare, and this is why the inclusion of a judge or a senior legal figure to a parliamentary inquiry, to me, makes no sense.
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:50.079
Because Justice Kirby would know that the point of an inquiry, or particularly a legal inquiry, is to probe, to get to the bottom of things, right?
00:39:50.079 --> 00:40:02.559
A parliamentary inquiry with no coercive powers, um, you know, and and it just does not have anything like the ability to get to the bottom of things like a legal inquiry would.
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:10.719
And yet here you have a late entry to this political inquiry, a lawyer slash judge, and you have the terms of reference.
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:13.039
I mean, imagine if that happened in a courtroom.
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:30.880
Imagine if Justice Kirby uh presided over a case where the prosecution or the defence wanted to change uh, you know, the the terms around the case, change what uh evidence could be admitted, what is admissible and what's not admissible, and do so without the court's approval.
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:32.559
It's it's beyond belief.
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:38.719
And when he says that it's intolerable, I actually find it intolerable what's happened with that parliamentary inquiry.
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:39.920
Now tell me something.
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:42.239
I think it I think we need to investigate.
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:58.159
At no time am I casting any aspersions onto the character of Justice Kirby, but I do think we need to investigate why on earth someone so senior in law would think that a political inquiry was was was the right outcome for something like medically acquired HIV.
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:08.639
We know that, for example, um another High Court judge or a former High Court judge in the UK, Sir Brian Langstaff, was the chair of the United Kingdom's Infected Body Inquiry.
00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:18.239
He said in his findings that there was enough evidence, particularly with hemophilia, from 1986 onwards to call for a legal inquiry.
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:29.280
And he condemned uh these publicly funded bodies like the Hemophilia Society UK and other groups that, despite their multi-million dollar funding, had never called for the obvious inquiry.
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:44.320
But here we have a judge who ended up, after saying, you know, that there should be no difference between the way that hemophiliacs or people who ended up with medically acquired HIV should be treated from people who acquired it from other means like uh misadventure through sex, etc.
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:57.920
It's remarkable that he then gets to open up a publicly funded organization, an institute, that receives tens of millions of dollars ostensibly to collect infectious disease data.
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.559
I mean, it's like having your cake and getting to eat it too.
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:09.599
And you and uh excuse me interrupting, Charles, at the time, um, you know, Martin had just not long passed away.
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:14.400
We were trying to pull ourselves together, you know, so to speak.
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:23.199
But we really did not understand why Michael Kirby was called in.
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:24.400
We we just did not get it.
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:26.480
And Bryce Courtney, he didn't understand it either.
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:27.599
He was a very intelligent man.
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:30.960
I'm gonna I'm gonna just chump in jump in here if I can.
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:35.280
As an investigator of this for many decades, I think I do understand why he was brought in.
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:43.760
You see, they knew what I just said, that they knew that by all rights there should be a legal inquiry, and there was no one better qualified than Kirby uh to make that view.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:51.599
We've just heard that his c we've just heard his counterpart in the UK, uh Brian Langstaff, said there should have been a call for an inquiry from 86.
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:52.960
So really it falls on him.
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:59.440
But uh the the inquiry that we had in 1990 or 1991.
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.079
Yes, that wasn't illegal.
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:05.440
You can't really call that inquiry when there's no lawyers or judges involved, right?
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:14.480
And that's so Michael Kirby, I think he was a late entry, and I think they changed the terms of reference because they didn't like the way that this parliamentary inquiry was going.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:20.480
And I think they brought him in because they brought him in because they knew that by rights we should actually have a Royal Commission.
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:31.360
But by bringing him in as a witness, it kind of g gives the inquiry because they're going to do the dirty, they're going to make the decision that there won't be the rightful outcomes that they need to happen that have happened overseas.
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:42.719
So that's why they include him to give it the kind of veneer that even though this is a parliamentary inquiry, we don't need to now have the necessary legal inquiry because Justice Kirby was a witness to a parliamentary inquiry.
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:45.440
It's immediately problematic on the on the face of it.
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:58.960
Um and my m from my memory, and I mean I'm trying to think back, you know, it was a long time ago, 35 years ago, one of the people on the committee who was a male was gay.
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:04.719
Um I mean I if I we pull the paperwork, I mean we'll be able to do that.
00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:06.079
Um I'll I'll know who I can.
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:24.800
It's quite quite interesting because we know that that Neil Blewett, when he was health minister in 1983 and started the cover-up of the hemophilia genocide and of the infected blood scandal and of Tata blood transfusions, he hadn't told his wife at that time that he'd been having a gay affair for the entirety of their marriage, 20-something years.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:31.519
She then's found dead in 1988, and he then says 20 years later that that she'd committed suicide.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:32.880
He changed the story.
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:54.159
Um, he moved in with his gay lover months after her death, and he changed the story and said initially he'd said she'd been found dead, uh, been an accident, but then 20 years later in the Sydney Morning Herald, I think it was the Good Weekend magazine, another Good Weekend, he he said, Oh no, it's because she found out that he'd been having a lifelong affair and was in fact a homosexual or bisexual.
00:44:54.159 --> 00:45:03.440
Um now we know that so Michael Kirby was homosexual, um, and you're saying one of the committee is a homosexual.
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:07.920
Michael Kirby, um one of the people on the committee, the Parliamentary Inquiry was homosexual.
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:16.719
Now, there's no suggestion that because someone's gay, they don't want to get to the bottom of things, because I know many brilliant gay people who are great investigators, actually.
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:27.840
But it seems that this group of homosexuals who were there in the 80s and 90s, uh prominent uh homosexuals in authority, they wanted to avoid a legal inquiry.
00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:28.880
Would you say that's fair?
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:29.760
Yes.
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:44.320
And and in that recent Good Weekend article that came out featuring Ida No Apologies, written by Greg Callahan, it features quotes from Justice Michael Kirby where he says, at that time in the 1980s, they were very concerned about AIDS funding, weren't they?
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:45.119
Yes.
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:53.360
So do you think that some of the reactions of these prominent gay people was their concerns over the funding, about controlling the funding?
00:45:53.840 --> 00:46:07.599
Yes, that that that that, but with the gay community, and not all not all not everybody from the gay community, but they they have as far as they're concerned, they have rights.
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:08.880
And they do.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:15.440
And as far as heterosexuals, they appear to have more rights than we have.
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:24.159
Uh because we don't behave the same way, and not you know, some people do, but mostly we don't behave just but they have their rights.
00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:33.360
And I remember I can't mm something at Parliament House where the gays all marched on Parliament House, and it might have been to do with this inquiry.
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:48.320
Look, it's thirty-five years ago, so you know my memory is fairly good, but but the gay community have rights, and there was no way that they were going to see people who had medically acquired HIV get any benefits that they didn't get.
00:46:48.719 --> 00:47:06.400
Yeah, but but you know, I'm gonna jump in here and I'm actually gonna point the finger at Justice Michael Kirby and I'm gonna point it at uh one of his close friends, uh Bill Botel, who's a professor of the Kirby Institute, who has a Bachelor of Arts degree from Tasmania in the 1970s, somehow is called a professor today.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:07.440
I don't quite understand.
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:21.599
But anyway, um I think that uh because they hadn't disseminated what they knew, that the gay community were behind the eight ball or were disadvantaged to some extent.
00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:22.800
I'm gonna tell you what that was.
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:24.079
Okay, here we go.
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:34.559
Let's just for a moment imagine that you your community is afflicted with a deadly virus.
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:39.840
The only information you're getting is from health authorities or from prominent people.
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.960
When did Michael Kirby tell them what he knew?
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:51.599
When did these health officials tell them what they knew that in the case of hemophilia, like what would happen with Martin, that this was no accident?
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:54.079
Now, I want to make something clear.
00:47:54.079 --> 00:48:00.559
Any gay man or anybody who ends up with HIV, it's it's a tragedy.
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:08.480
But what Michael Kirby would know, and these prominent homosexuals would know, is that in legal terms it's class of misadventure.
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:11.840
Tragic, but there's no culpable party.
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:38.639
But in terms of hemophilia, they knew, and we can prove now with our lawyers, we can prove that the Kirby Institute knew, and that Michael Kirby knew, and that Bill Botol knew, and that Neil Blewitt knew, and all these senior people in authority knew, that these hemophilia treatments were provided tainted, that they knew that these things were unsafe, and that they knew that there were other alternatives, but they didn't give those other alternatives.
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:41.599
So hemophiliacs were knowingly infected.
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:54.239
Because you just told me in this interview, you told me that in 1985 that Martin Hatch was diagnosed with non-A and non-B hepatitis, and that you were told by his specialist that he got it from his treatments.
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:54.880
Is that correct?
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:55.360
Yeah.
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:59.280
Well, yes, yes, yes.
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:00.320
You told me earlier.
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:01.360
Yes, yes, yes.
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:06.960
So a specialist told you in 1985 that Martin had acquired non-A and non-B hepatitis.
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:10.400
So they knew in 1985 that these products were tainted.
00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:15.280
Well, why has why that was in 1985.
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:39.440
So why when that parliamentary inquiry was happening in 1990, hadn't Kirby, hadn't Botel, hadn't Blewett and all these people disseminated the information that actually this wasn't misadventure, this was negligence, that there'd been a manufacturing fault, that someone had made the decision to send this stuff out because he got infected with AIDS after that 1985 infection when it was diagnosed, presumably, right?
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:40.960
Hep C right.
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:41.679
Right.
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:43.840
So so the point is they knew all of this.
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:59.519
So I think had the gay community been told that actually, look, AIDS is terrible, and you do have rights and you deserve rights, but these children, these hemophiliacs, they're not infected as a in their infections has nothing to do with you.
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.440
It has nothing to do with your rights.
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:05.760
Their infection comes from legal negligence, and it's been shown.
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:10.960
We now have a legal opinion from lawyers who forced the UK's infected blood inquiry.
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:20.400
We now have the UK making a manslaughter finding, and I have a legal opinion, and my statement, which is based around Martin Hatch, has been appraised as manslaughter.
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:21.119
Okay.
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:34.800
So, Lynn, given how prominent, you know, you were, Martin was, your uh legal case that doctors lied in, that failed.
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:40.480
I mean, how taxes were spent, millions were spent defending a little boy with AIDS.
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:43.280
How that was in the public interest, I'll never know.
00:50:43.280 --> 00:51:01.599
And when I was giving evidence to the UK's Infective Blood Inquiry, and we'll we'll show this to our audience too too, I was provided with a document where Australian health authorities were writing to British blood bankers asking them for help in defeating and defending Martin's case of a little boy with AIDS here in Australia.
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:04.079
I just find it remarkable, right?
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:05.679
Tell me this.
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:07.679
Were you heckled?
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:12.719
Do you remember you were ever heckled at that parliamentary inquiry, you, Bryce, or your husband?
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:15.840
Well, as I was saying earlier, I was trying to recall.
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:18.000
Yes, I do think the gay community did.
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:19.519
I think that's And you know what?
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:28.320
I don't think they would have heckled you had Justice Kirby, the Kirby Institute, Bill Botel, Neil Blewitt, Ida Buttrose, and everyone involved had told the truth.
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:31.039
Because I have, and I will defend them.
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:39.519
I have gay friends, and in there is uh someone gay in in my life who has been one of the greatest teachers I've ever had.
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:49.280
And and I stand here, and I I really do not believe that the gay community would have had that same reaction had they known that this was a case of negligence.
00:51:49.679 --> 00:52:12.079
I think Charles, but one of the issues was that we, um, our family, and I can think of about at least three other families that I got to know, and one family in particular, uh uh the mother died with HIV through she had a blood transfusion and she passed it on to her daughter.
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:19.920
Um and the father was trying to look after, he looked after the sick wife, then he has to look after the sick child.
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:21.679
He couldn't really work.
00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:30.559
And the grandmother, who was an amazing woman, she was sort of had taken them in and was looking after them, but they had no financial support.
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:32.320
None, none.
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:36.159
And nor did we, and nor did everybody else.
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:45.679
But I think that the gay, some of the gay community, let us say some, they didn't like the idea that we were seeking financial assistance.
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:47.599
Uh they they didn't like that.
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:54.559
And they couldn't see, and I'm saying some, they couldn't see that we were entitled to financial.
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:55.840
So that was a problem.
00:52:56.239 --> 00:53:00.960
Because because they hadn't been told that this was knowingly done.
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:10.800
Had they had they been told that these children had knowingly been provided that this was a case of criminal negligence, I do not believe that they would have had those same attitudes.
00:53:11.360 --> 00:53:17.519
Some of them, Charles, I think some of them, I mean, as as we all know in society, some people are more radical than others.
00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:19.280
You know, we we all know that.
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:19.599
Yeah.
00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:40.880
Uh but I don't think that you know, some of them would have reacted in a certain way, some but it was the whole at the time in America, I mean, I know a doctor uh who remained nameless, who was working in Canada uh in the late 70s, early 80s.
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:46.239
He knew about HIV being uh happening through the gay community.
00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:47.360
He knew about it.
00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:51.119
Uh and when and then he came back to Australia in the early 80s that he knew about it.
00:53:51.440 --> 00:53:58.960
Well, I mean, they were advertising for blood donors in sexually explicit gay publications during the AIDS crisis here in Sydney in 1982.
00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:06.719
I mean, they they they were the world was talking about this strange affliction that was affecting the gay community and hemophiliacs in 1981.
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:20.239
They'd gone global with stories about grids, gay-related immune deficiency syndrome, and the Australian Red Cross Lifeblood then chose to advertise in a sexually explicit gay publication for blood donors, something is terribly wrong.
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:27.440
Now, Lynn, from this interview, from this chat that we've had, it's quite clear that you were pioneers.
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:29.760
I mean, it's not the right word because it's very painful.
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:36.320
It's not like you chose this, it's not like you wanted this, but Martin was a pioneer in this fight.
00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:40.239
And in fact, it was his spirit that started my fight, okay?
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:52.960
Given how prominent you are, given that Martin's uh legal case, the fact that it failed, the fact that he was so pioneering this fight, the fact that it's central to my evidence that was published by the UK inquiry.
00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:54.800
So I was made an Australian witness.
00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:56.000
I didn't do that lightly.
00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:03.119
I did it because I knew that ourselves, our families, so many families around Australia had been denied the truth for 40 years.
00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:05.119
Given that, how did you feel?
00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:08.800
And it's back to that ABC reporter that contacted you in recent times.
00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:18.400
This ABC reporter contacts you and says that she's her specialty is in investigations and that she's been investigating the infective blood scandal for many months.
00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:20.000
You then replied to her.
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:23.360
Can you tell us a little bit about what happened with that reply?
00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:39.519
Uh well, she came back to me, included you in it as well, uh, that she hadn't really been investigating it for many months, and she also had another role apart from this particular investigation.
00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:48.000
Um But I when I got the initial email, I was very um Suspicious, I suppose.
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:52.079
Suspicious because nobody Why now?
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:55.440
Yeah, I I hadn't spoken to anybody from the ABC in 30 odd.
00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:56.480
How did you get your email?
00:55:56.480 --> 00:55:58.639
How did you I don't know where she got my email from.
00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:00.960
I have no idea where she I mean, how do you get emails?
00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:01.840
Something's up.
00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:04.639
And so I just thought this is a bit odd.
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:12.480
And and especially when it was just after I had sent the email to Greg Callahan.
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:13.920
Wow.
00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:15.519
Um I I thought that was a bit odd.
00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:17.760
Isn't that that that okay, how interesting.
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:20.000
So And she he had my email address.
00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:21.119
Oh, well, there you go.
00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:21.440
Aha.
00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:22.320
So get this.
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:22.639
Okay.
00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:25.199
So then she says in this email that she's an investigator.
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:30.800
Now, you told me about this, and I confronted her via email, and I said, Well, you're on taxpayer money.
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:36.480
With every day that goes by, we've been here for decades, we've got people who've got no access to any financial assistance.
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:42.960
We've had people commit suicide because of poverty, we've got people with HIV who are forced to visit food banks to survive.
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:44.079
Where is the story?
00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:46.880
Where is the news piece so we can get the help we need now?
00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:48.400
You've been on this for three months.
00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:51.119
She turns around and says, Oh, I haven't really been investigating.
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:54.400
I've I'm on the daily news cycle, and it was nothing but excuses.
00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:57.360
Now, you then, Lynn, told me something important.
00:56:57.360 --> 00:56:59.199
Now I'm meeting you face to face today.
00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:17.039
We've met a number of times face to face, but you said, because I said to her at you, I said, look, even though the ABC have done a terrible thing, even though they've refused this four corners and seven thirty reports, and they've refused to investigate what they know that this is Australia's or one of Australia's deadliest medical scandals, and that they have failed to report on this.
00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:23.679
I said, listen, let's still give this, let's have, let's not be cynical, let's give this reporter a chance.
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:26.559
So you said you always believe it's good to meet people.
00:57:26.559 --> 00:57:28.880
You then invited her, didn't you, to meet with you?
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:29.760
Yes, I did.
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:41.199
I I said to you, I do not like giving such pertinent information about such a serious subject over the phone or via email.
00:57:41.199 --> 00:57:47.920
Even in my working life, if I was going to interview someone, I didn't want to do it over the phone.
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:49.199
I wanted to meet them.
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:51.280
I wanted to meet them face to face.
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.199
And I said this about Hannah.
00:57:53.199 --> 00:58:01.679
So I sent Hannah an in well, I say an invitation, I sent her an email and said, Look, I'm going to be meeting with Charles on Wednesday, but this Wednesday gone.
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:05.039
What about you come and meet with us and we can have a coffee and a sandwich?
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:11.760
And uh anyway, she came back immediately and said, Oh, we're going in a different direction with this.
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:22.639
Uh and we've got our we want to we want to stay with the she didn't use the word witnesses, we want to stay with the what did she say there was a families that they've been talking to.
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:28.320
But the point I also want to make, and I've said this to her as well, um, in an email.
00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:32.800
Our case was the first case to run in Australia.
00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:36.960
We didn't run many, I think it was probably only three cases in the whole of Australia.
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:46.239
Martin Martin and our family, but Martin, we were the first case, and I've got a lot of knowledge about what went on.
00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:49.360
Wouldn't you think I said to her, wouldn't you think you'd like to speak to me?
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:55.920
But but but but she did want to speak to you because that's why, but that's why she you she contacted you, not the other way around.
00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:57.519
I mean, you'd never heard from this person before.
00:58:57.920 --> 00:58:59.679
But then she changed her mind about speaking to me.
00:58:59.920 --> 00:59:11.599
Right, but here but okay, but do you recall that I said to her, look, when we meet Lynn, we'll show you, provided you can keep privacy, we're not going to show you people's names, we'll show you over 6,000 contacts we've had from the public.
00:59:11.599 --> 00:59:15.519
We've had our petition supporting a Royal Commission into the Infected Blood Scandal.
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:22.559
And Lynn, today we've got volunteers here, everybody, with us, and they've just been showing Lynn, these are volunteers for Infected Blood Australia.
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:24.559
We thank them, we're deeply appreciative.
00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:29.599
Uh Australians care about this issue, we're not letting it go, we're we're going to get to the end of this.
00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:38.719
But you saw today the petition forms that we have, and you saw how strangers, people in the public, are commenting on these petition forms, saying, Listen, I'm affected.
00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:42.960
I mean, just today we had a form that came in and we never mentioned people's names.
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:43.280
Okay.
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:48.159
But you saw it, Lynn, because you're entitled to see it because you're involved with Infected Blood Australia.
00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:50.559
Only people involved with this can see the forms, right?
00:59:50.559 --> 01:00:04.159
But you saw today that a lady found out that she had the deadly virus hep C when she was eight months pregnant, gives birth, and then she She realized that she'd had a blood transfusion 12 years before her pregnancy.
01:00:04.159 --> 01:00:11.360
She then finds out 12 years later she's got hep C has two children, and they end up with hep C.
01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:16.960
Now that's rare that the mother inadvertently affects their children, but it has happened in our group.
01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:18.079
How tragic is that?
01:00:18.079 --> 01:00:20.480
So this is a major scandal.
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:26.880
And we offered to show this uh Hannah Meager, I will tell you her name, we're not doing it saying anything.
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:28.559
I wish her the best in her career.
01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:36.239
Uh, we're not saying anything uh wrong, but we're just saying, you know, I find it bizarre that we offered to show her 6,000 pieces of evidence from the public.
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:44.239
We offered to meet her in person, and the fact that she contacted a mother that had lost her son to AIDS, she got your email, she's tapping you up for information.
01:00:44.239 --> 01:00:51.360
And weirdly, in her email to you, her first email, which made me ring alarm bells, she said, Oh, and I'm not in touch with Charles Mackenzie.
01:00:51.360 --> 01:01:08.960
So I think what's happening here is uh she, however unwittingly, I think her bosses at the ABC are upset with the fact that in my statement, my study published statement to the UK, you can see it on our website, infectedbloodastralia.com, you can see it on the Infected Blood Inquiry's website.
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:16.320
The last five pages of my huge statement features my appeal to the inquiry chair, Sir Brian Langstaff.
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:27.199
And in my appeal, I say to him, the reason no one knows about this is because of failures, like the failure of our nation's public broadcaster to investigate our nation's deadliest medical scandal.
01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:36.400
And I think that Hannah, however unwittingly, may have been collecting any other evidence, any evidence she could that might have painted our group in a bad light.
01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:39.519
Because they don't want to take the rat for what they're guilty of.
01:01:39.519 --> 01:01:44.239
And what they're guilty of is not leading, listening to the pleas of dying Australians.
01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:48.960
We had a dying man go to 730 report just four years ago.
01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:50.239
They knocked him back.
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:53.199
Now they're all interested in all of a sudden contacting you.
01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:57.760
But then when you say, I want to meet you, I want to show you all this evidence, we were the first to sue.
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:07.360
Suddenly I think, oh, or that could mean that she might say, or someone might say something negative about the ABC or about IFA or potentially about Justice Kirby, and so they take it in a different direction.
01:02:07.360 --> 01:02:09.519
This isn't journalism, in my opinion.
01:02:09.519 --> 01:02:12.320
This is uh defensive moves by the ABC.
01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:18.320
They're using the the name of the ABC to get people to open up, but there is a fishing expedition, in my opinion.
01:02:18.320 --> 01:02:18.639
Yes.
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:18.960
Okay.
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:30.079
Well, I I just think it was very odd after my writing to Greg Callahan, that very shortly thereafter she gets in touch with me.
01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:31.119
I thought that was very odd.
01:02:31.440 --> 01:02:35.920
Well, I I did some videos recently about how I made a complaint to the ABC in 2017.
01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:39.599
I then made a complaint to the ABC's review of their complaint handling process.
01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:40.800
None of them got back to me.
01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:44.400
I'm going to be relying on that in our inquiry that we're looking to force.
01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:48.960
Now, Lynn, and everybody listening, thank you so much for listening to this.
01:02:48.960 --> 01:03:06.960
It's uh the biggest interview of my life and the most important interview of my life because I'm with, and this is why I find the ABC decision to dump Lynn and her stories and all other evidence so outrageous, because I'm with the most important person, apart from Boris Courtney and apart from Martin Hatch, in this whole scandal.
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:13.440
And we have decided, Lynn and I, we're very happy to report that Infected Blood Australia now has lawyers.
01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:31.599
For many years, uh, the Australian victims and their affective family members, we're talking about people who got tainted blood transfusions or children who or adults who've got tainted blood treatments, we're talking about mothers who had to give up their work to look after their children, we're talking about husbands that had to look after their their sick wives and vice versa.
01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:34.079
We're talking about parents that bury children.
01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:41.599
We're talking about something truly terrible that is our nation's worst public health failure.
01:03:41.599 --> 01:03:43.599
We're going to get to the bottom of this.
01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:52.320
And Lynn, some weeks ago you were part of uh helping me and our lawyers make an application for an inquiry.
01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:57.679
And our lawyers submitted an application to the Australian Human Rights Commission for that inquiry.
01:03:57.679 --> 01:04:01.280
And we've just heard back in recent times from our lawyers, haven't we?
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:04.000
That we're considered to be a priority for that inquiry.
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:04.639
Is that correct?
01:04:04.960 --> 01:04:05.599
Yes, that's correct.
01:04:05.920 --> 01:04:11.599
So I think on that basis, then, this is a wonderful thing because uh when we do get the inquiry, it's pretty obvious it's needed.
01:04:11.599 --> 01:04:15.199
We know that people in authority agree, and they know that we're a priority for it.
01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:26.000
We know that our lawyers agree, we know we've got the same lawyers that force the UK's inquiry, and we know that this inquiry could potentially lead to a reopening of people's rights for compensation and the affective families.
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:31.199
They do in the UK there are people getting millions and millions of dollars, parents, children.
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:36.800
You know, uh everyone affected is getting access to rightful compensation that's very significant.
01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:38.400
Like I say, it's in the millions.
01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:44.960
And in fact, the British have made an 11.8 billion pound compensation package available for their affected victims.
01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:46.719
But there's nothing here in Australia.
01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:50.559
So we are hope hopeful that we're going to get an inquiry.
01:04:50.559 --> 01:05:10.000
We're hopeful that the Australian victims of this global scandal will, because of the efforts of volunteers who are with us today, because of the wonderful people that have filled out these petitions, because of the wonderful testimony and the life experience of of the Hatch family, and because of, you know, all of these people that have helped us get to this place that we are now.
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:11.519
We're very, very close.
01:05:11.519 --> 01:05:14.800
And Lynn and I, even though we're not very tech savvy.
01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:15.599
No, I'm not.
01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:17.519
What we're going to do is we're going to do something.
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:22.400
I again I'm going to say this this is the most important thing I want to do with the with my life.
01:05:22.400 --> 01:05:27.119
I would like to do an audio-only podcast with Lynn and I.
01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:30.000
It's uh going to be called When Humanitarians Kill.
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:31.679
We'd launched it previously.
01:05:31.679 --> 01:05:41.840
We will in future, perhaps Lynn and I will do lots of interviews with professional podcasters and we will make a very professional, in-depth investigation into this scandal.
01:05:41.840 --> 01:05:47.840
But what we're going to do now is we're going to re-issue this podcast soon, When Humanitarians Kill.
01:05:47.840 --> 01:06:08.079
And you're listening to the first reissued episode, the new season, because we're going to give people uh frequent updates via this podcast of what's happening with the quest for an inquiry, what's happening with our lawyers, what's happening with our petitions, and what's happening with just all of the people involved who are trying to correct this injustice.
01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:12.320
So, Lynn, are you looking forward to your first ever podcast that you'll be co-hosting?
01:06:12.639 --> 01:06:15.360
Well, I don't know whether I'm looking forward to it, but I w I want to do it.
01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:16.559
I do want to do it.
01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:28.400
And just very quickly, one of the things I'd like to say is in all of this, what I strongly object to is the fact that we were lied to by by the government.
01:06:28.400 --> 01:06:31.519
And I just find that and then what else do they lie about?
01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:33.039
Well, I mean, they're on our money.
01:06:33.039 --> 01:06:36.800
And and the way I see it is it let's just say you've got a mansion, right?
01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:39.519
Let's pretend Australians are wealthy, okay?
01:06:39.519 --> 01:06:51.360
The Commonwealth, and every Australian has access to a big mansion, and we find out that the butler and the cleaners and everyone are lying and stealing our family or our Commonwealth silver.
01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:53.440
That's what I feel about it.
01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:57.679
I don't want people on my taxes lying or stealing or doing of this.
01:06:57.679 --> 01:07:03.039
And I know that most Australians agree, particularly now, and in fact, I've got these caps here.
01:07:03.039 --> 01:07:06.400
Make accountability happen again caps, ladies and gentlemen.
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:18.639
They're available for sale at our website, joinhighadventure.com.au, with the money going, the proceeds from these high-quality caps going towards paying uh our legal fees.
01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:23.920
Well, everybody, I will be uh issuing a meme and a poster.
01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:27.360
If you'd like to contribute to the show, are you a journalist?
01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:29.280
Are you a retired journalist?
01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:30.800
Are you an investigator?
01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:35.679
Would you like to be part of When Humanitarians Kill with Lynn Hatch and myself?
01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:36.559
We'd love that.
01:07:36.559 --> 01:07:40.000
We've been reaching out to a couple of journalists to see if they'd like to come on board.
01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:53.519
And and one of the things you could do as a journalist is we could tell you, we could say, this is what we suspect or this is our evidence, and you could then be the unbiased party if you want, for the benefit of the audience and say what you think of it or chase it up.
01:07:53.519 --> 01:07:55.519
Are Lynn and I right?
01:07:55.519 --> 01:07:58.639
Was this you know, was this no accident?
01:07:58.639 --> 01:08:00.320
You can test that claim.
01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:02.000
We're going to test that claim.
01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:10.320
So please contact me, Charles McKenzie, at my email address, cjm at infectedbloodastralia.com.
01:08:10.320 --> 01:08:21.439
I'd love to hear from you if you'd love if you'd like or you feel you can contribute to this podcast, which is going to get to the bottom of our nation's deadliest medical failing.
01:08:21.439 --> 01:08:24.720
I'll also be um telling you ways you can contribute.
01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:31.119
Um we have a bank account, a When Humanitarians Kill bank account that we've just opened, is never had any money going in, Lynn.
01:08:31.119 --> 01:08:38.960
The only thing we'd do if someone wanted to sponsor us, uh, if they wanted your name read out in the credits, I'm coming up with a system where you can mention that.
01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:42.319
If you make a donation, you can mention that in your bank.
01:08:42.319 --> 01:08:47.199
Uh when you do the transfer, okay, you might like to make a $50 donation, a hundred dollar donation.
01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:52.800
We're going to need to buy a little bit of equipment, Lynn, and some internet or podcast hosting bills.
01:08:52.800 --> 01:08:55.199
But I think you and I can do this on a shoestring.
01:08:55.439 --> 01:08:55.520
Yes.
01:08:55.840 --> 01:08:57.600
Because we don't need much money to do it.
01:08:57.600 --> 01:09:03.760
Uh what we need is our memories, okay, and our voices, okay, and the help of the public, I guess.
01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:09.600
Not just uh, we're not talking about uh financial help, we're talking your support in in helping us get answers.
01:09:09.600 --> 01:09:15.279
You know, write to politicians, listen to the evidence as we flush it out via this new podcast.
01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:20.880
Our website, by the way, for the podcast is when humanitarianskill.com.au.
01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:25.279
It'll be available on Apple, Spotlight, and major podcast platforms.
01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:30.159
Lynn, uh like you rightly said, you're not necessarily looking forward to making this.
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:34.079
I am looking forward to making it, but I'll tell you what I mean by that.
01:09:34.079 --> 01:09:40.880
I feel like I've got a thorn in my side, and I feel like making this series will help get the thorn out of my side.
01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:51.520
It will also help me to some degree speak up for Martin because um Martin is a former school pupil, not just your son, he went to iSchool as well.
01:09:51.520 --> 01:09:56.560
And I'm amazed to find, which I didn't know, that he wanted to be a QC.
01:09:56.560 --> 01:10:00.880
Because when I was a kid, I didn't want to be a QC, I didn't think I could be a QC.
01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:03.039
My grandfather told me I should be.
01:10:03.039 --> 01:10:06.319
But I loved the show Rumpole of the Bailey.
01:10:06.319 --> 01:10:07.359
Does anyone remember that?
01:10:07.359 --> 01:10:13.199
It was a BBC show, a legal drama with the Australian actor Leo McKern.
01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:18.880
People thought he was British, but I loved that show and I was a kid, and I couldn't I thought, why do I like this show?
01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:20.640
I don't know any other kids that like it.
01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:26.000
But we found out I didn't know that Martin, Martin Hatch or son, liked Rumpole of the Bailey.
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:27.359
He loved it, he used to, yeah, exactly.
01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:32.720
And I guess because he wanted to be a QC, and that was a bit of an insight into the life of a QC.
01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:33.520
Well, guess what?
01:10:33.520 --> 01:10:41.840
I'd like to breathe life into Martin's dream of being a QC, and I'd like to get some QCs to come onto the show.
01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:42.720
You can be.
01:10:42.720 --> 01:10:45.439
Could you be Martin's proxy, QC?
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:47.439
Because I can promise you something.
01:10:47.439 --> 01:10:58.319
Our lawyers are going to be working for Martin Hatch, and we're going to be looking, and this series will look at Martin Hatch's case, his legal case that failed, and we know that his doctors lied.
01:10:58.640 --> 01:10:59.119
Oh, they lied.
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:00.239
They definitely lied.
01:11:00.479 --> 01:11:00.880
They lied?
01:11:01.119 --> 01:11:01.600
They lied.
01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:02.880
And we will go through that.
01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:12.079
I've got to say, it's only of recent times that I've actually looked at or read the transcript from Martin's case.
01:11:12.079 --> 01:11:13.840
I'd never read it before.
01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:20.960
I could not believe the irregularities in that transcript of what actually happened.
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:22.720
And neither can our lawyers next scene.
01:11:22.720 --> 01:11:35.199
I mean, they tried to suggest that they told you in 1983 that HIV could be a consequence of a treatment that your son didn't even really need to survive.
01:11:37.119 --> 01:11:44.880
They also tried to say that Martin had contracted HIV because we were negligible, I was a negligent mother.
01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:46.239
So what would they mean by that?
01:11:46.239 --> 01:11:47.039
What are they inferring from?
01:11:47.359 --> 01:11:50.800
Well, I think they inferred that, you know, he might have got it from other means.
01:11:51.119 --> 01:11:51.600
Like what?
01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:53.359
Well, a sexual relationship.
01:11:53.840 --> 01:12:09.920
So a little boy, the Australian taxpayer, is spending millions of dollars to run a court case where children are basically being made out to be uh, you know, sexually promiscuous before they've even had any th any kind of consideration of anything like that.
01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:11.039
It's outrageous.
01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:12.640
And I invite the audience.
01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:13.039
Okay.
01:12:13.039 --> 01:12:16.239
The other thing is to join us on this podcast series.
01:12:21.359 --> 01:12:22.079
Full of lies.
01:12:22.079 --> 01:12:22.640
It wasn't right.
01:12:23.199 --> 01:12:27.119
They didn't want to pay the compensation because they knew that Martin was a pioneer.
01:12:27.119 --> 01:12:34.239
This is why the ABC, their decision not to run you when they do eventually get around to supposedly investigating this scandal.
01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:39.279
This is why it's so appalling that they wouldn't have you on or they wouldn't have Martin evidence on.
01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:41.920
I find it very unus I just find it very strange.
01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:43.600
Well, guess what, everyone?
01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:45.600
Our audience are invited to join us.
01:12:45.600 --> 01:12:48.159
We're going to go through these strange things with Lynn and I.
01:12:48.159 --> 01:12:49.840
We can't I can't wait to get started.
01:12:49.840 --> 01:12:52.960
Like I say, I feel like it's a thorn being pulled from my side.
01:12:52.960 --> 01:12:58.079
Lynn, perhaps, is apprehensive, understandably, given what her family have been through.
01:12:58.079 --> 01:12:59.199
But guess what, everybody?
01:12:59.199 --> 01:13:00.159
We're going ahead.
01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:04.000
Now, everyone, there are some show links available with this episode.
01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:05.680
Please go to the show links.
01:13:05.680 --> 01:13:08.479
Support our call for a royal commission, please.
01:13:08.479 --> 01:13:09.199
We really need it.
01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:13.920
And again, if you're affected, you can leave a message for us on that pot that petition form.
01:13:13.920 --> 01:13:15.359
So many Australians have.
01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:21.119
Please consider being a sponsor for this show and donating to our bank account.
01:13:21.119 --> 01:13:23.439
And we will mention your name or your business.
01:13:23.439 --> 01:13:24.479
We'd love to.
01:13:24.479 --> 01:13:32.560
And also, for your consideration, you will find the make accountability happen again, caps which Lynn has one of those, and we sign them.
01:13:32.560 --> 01:13:37.359
If you'd like to sign one, Lynn will sign you one for $100, and Lynn will make sure.
01:13:37.359 --> 01:13:39.840
And I tell you one thing about Lynn, she's no pushover.
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:42.319
Lynn will keep be keeping an eye over the accounts.
01:13:42.319 --> 01:13:45.920
If uh not that we're going to have much by way of accounts, we don't want much.
01:13:45.920 --> 01:13:51.600
This isn't about money, it's about justice, and it's about getting answers for little boys like Martin.
01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:53.840
And by goodness, that's what we're going to be doing.
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So please go to those show links, support us, and get ready, everybody, because this series has been relaunched with Lynn, and we're going to get started.
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Well, thank you so much, Lynn.
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Thank you, Charles.
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Yes.
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And thank you for our volunteers.
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Thank you very much, everyone.