WEBVTT
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:11.799 --> 00:00:11.949
All right.
00:00:11.949 --> 00:00:15.319
Welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal podcast.
00:00:15.319 --> 00:00:23.399
This is Mike Caldwell, your host once again, and joining me is Joe Lane from Tos- Tulsa, Oklahoma.
00:00:23.409 --> 00:00:24.019
Thank you.
00:00:24.159 --> 00:00:24.899
Joe, welcome.
00:00:26.489 --> 00:00:28.067
Well, I mean, Tulsa- How you doing so far?
00:00:28.067 --> 00:00:28.319
How are we doing?
00:00:28.319 --> 00:00:28.829
Close enough.
00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:31.989
Uh, you know, w- when I, when I first- I stumbled on Tulsa
00:00:31.989 --> 00:00:35.579
moved to Tulsa, I thought it was in Arizona, so, uh, you know, we're doing all right
00:00:39.015 --> 00:00:40.325
Okay, that makes me feel better.
00:00:40.495 --> 00:00:40.785
Yeah.
00:00:41.255 --> 00:00:44.155
So Jo, you are in education.
00:00:44.165 --> 00:00:48.365
You're currently a, a coach, I'm s- I'm assuming instructional coach.
00:00:48.395 --> 00:00:50.035
Why don't you give us a little bit of your background?
00:00:50.045 --> 00:00:51.095
This isn't an interview.
00:00:51.105 --> 00:00:51.135
Sure.
00:00:51.135 --> 00:00:51.605
You don't have to be perfect, but just give us a little bit of a feel.
00:00:51.605 --> 00:00:51.675
Yeah, so uh- Where, where are
00:00:54.625 --> 00:00:54.895
you coming from?
00:00:54.955 --> 00:00:55.645
I'm Jo.
00:00:55.645 --> 00:01:00.305
I identify as a coach, and I, I think that's important framing.
00:01:00.845 --> 00:01:06.245
Uh, as, uh, the… Right now I'm in a, a bit of transition.
00:01:06.255 --> 00:01:17.185
I have been in the, the field of educator support, adult learning, um, for, uh, 16 years now.
00:01:17.255 --> 00:01:31.345
Um, started most of my work at the teacher level, namely working in classrooms that were challenging and, uh, classrooms with a lot of emergency or alternatively certified teachers.
00:01:31.345 --> 00:01:55.155
And so, um, had the privilege of developing a lot of pattern recognition around how we support educators, specifically novice educators, and was able to kind of translate some of
that coaching practice, you know, now at the leader level, and that's what I do now, is I'm a principal coach, at least until, um, June when my contract is done 'cause of budget cuts.
00:01:55.155 --> 00:01:58.965
But, um, I'm s- always will forever be a coach
00:02:02.381 --> 00:02:02.721
Love it.
00:02:03.151 --> 00:02:05.471
Did you, were you ever an athletic coach?
00:02:05.471 --> 00:02:06.251
Uh, no, and I'm a terrible athlete.
00:02:06.341 --> 00:02:11.141
And, um, but I find myself, um, you know, picking up random hobbies.
00:02:11.171 --> 00:02:13.701
Are you into certain hobbies, right, Mike?
00:02:13.761 --> 00:02:15.301
Do you have any- I have more hobbies than I have time.
00:02:15.321 --> 00:02:17.691
Oh, I have more hobbies than I have time.
00:02:17.981 --> 00:02:19.001
Yeah, don't get me started.
00:02:19.001 --> 00:02:20.311
We could just sort of do a whole episode on hobbies.
00:02:20.311 --> 00:02:21.611
Uh, 'cause I love being bad at stuff.
00:02:21.611 --> 00:02:21.726
That'd be fun.
00:02:21.726 --> 00:02:21.802
I'm down.
00:02:21.802 --> 00:02:25.931
Like, I love being really bad at stuff because then you can get good at stuff.
00:02:26.431 --> 00:02:29.709
Uh- That's true … so I just started on a curling team- That is true.
00:02:29.709 --> 00:02:31.041
It's been fun … so that's really exciting.
00:02:31.071 --> 00:02:32.911
Um, but I'm, I'm not an athlete.
00:02:33.041 --> 00:02:34.031
Was never a coach.
00:02:36.401 --> 00:02:38.371
Curling in Oklahoma, that seems- Right?
00:02:38.371 --> 00:02:38.431
Curling in Oklahoma, that seems- Right.
00:02:38.431 --> 00:02:39.661
I know … like it doesn't fit.
00:02:39.691 --> 00:02:40.511
But- Yeah.
00:02:41.991 --> 00:02:48.531
But it's really, I mean, you, you need a real flat surface for curling and so there's- I suppose, yeah … where Oklahoma fits, I guess.
00:02:48.621 --> 00:02:48.881
Maybe.
00:02:51.251 --> 00:02:53.131
So Jo, you're working on a book.
00:02:53.141 --> 00:02:54.551
It is, uh- Or do you have it published yet?
00:02:54.561 --> 00:02:55.131
Yes.
00:02:55.181 --> 00:02:56.971
It, it is out on May 19th.
00:02:56.971 --> 00:02:57.199
Newly released.
00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:57.541
Newly released, right.
00:02:57.541 --> 00:03:02.831
Uh, it's called Burn the Script: How Great Coaches Disrupt Thinking and Transform Practice.
00:03:06.103 --> 00:03:06.473
Love it.
00:03:06.643 --> 00:03:07.953
I like the title.
00:03:08.273 --> 00:03:12.493
I read a little bit about, about the book, but let's, let's jump into that.
00:03:12.503 --> 00:03:14.963
You talk about mental fossils and things like that.
00:03:15.013 --> 00:03:17.763
I don't know what all that means, but talk about Burn the Script.
00:03:17.763 --> 00:03:18.213
What does that mean?
00:03:18.353 --> 00:03:21.173
What are you-- where are you going with, with that title?
00:03:21.173 --> 00:03:21.183
Yeah.
00:03:21.183 --> 00:03:37.183
So I think there's, uh, and, and we know this actually from just, like, understanding human behavior is there, there are certain be- uh,
actions that we take in our everyday life that we, uh, may or may not be entirely conscious of as far as the choices that we are making.
00:03:37.183 --> 00:03:44.833
We are a con- conglomeration of our previous experiences that formulate into a set of beliefs that we therefore act on.
00:03:45.353 --> 00:03:51.453
And, you know, over time, especially in the field of education, we experience a lot of, I would call, professional trauma.
00:03:52.143 --> 00:04:08.113
Um, and, uh, you know, even from the teacher who works under a, a principal that micromanages, um, to the, the teacher who had the, the student blow up in their face when they tried to give them a consequence, right?
00:04:08.113 --> 00:04:16.403
We have all these experiences that formulate into these sets of beliefs that drive our behavior.
00:04:16.853 --> 00:04:30.663
Uh, and so we might give feedback to a teacher and say, "Hey, you gotta give con- consequences consistently to students," and they won't do it, and we wonder why that happens, and it's because we're acting on a set of scripts.
00:04:30.663 --> 00:04:41.223
We're acting on a set of beliefs that need to be examined in order to change the behaviors in which may or may not be serving us at that point in time
00:04:44.709 --> 00:04:45.059
Yeah.
00:04:45.849 --> 00:04:46.299
I love it.
00:04:46.299 --> 00:05:19.985
I, I'm curious on… So I was in a one-on-one coaching call today with a school leader, a vice principal in a school, and, and our focus for, for this coaching call was, um, handling conflict or stepping into
conflict, which I've found more and more The, you know, there's so many people in school leadership positions that still have this block and avoid or delay the difficult conversations for, for a variety of reasons.
00:05:20.565 --> 00:05:28.865
And I'm curious, like, from your perspective, one, do you see the same from your, from your experience as a, as a leadership coach?
00:05:29.275 --> 00:05:33.215
And have you traced that back?
00:05:33.215 --> 00:05:54.455
Is there, is, is there some mental fossils that are kind of i- in the, I guess maybe from trauma or experiences or, or is it just do you just
chalk it up to like human nature is avoidance, avoid, and often just avoids conflict because of fear of w- possible consequences or- Yeah
00:05:54.455 --> 00:05:54.821
or outcomes from that?
00:05:54.821 --> 00:05:58.535
I think you, like, you basically just summarized the book beautifully, right?
00:05:58.585 --> 00:06:01.655
Uh, because, uh, you talked about… Yeah.
00:06:01.935 --> 00:06:02.515
Writing a book is not that hard.
00:06:02.515 --> 00:06:04.395
Yeah, I told you writing a book is not that hard.
00:06:04.395 --> 00:06:05.142
I just did it.
00:06:05.142 --> 00:06:09.405
I mean, uh, the avoid- The word avoidance is- Just kidding … the right one here, right?
00:06:09.435 --> 00:06:14.045
Is… And, and avoidance though can sometimes, um, be a little deceiving.
00:06:14.055 --> 00:06:25.535
Sometimes avoidance look like, looks like detaching or surrendering, but sometimes it also looks like overworking and overexerting in certain areas, mostly as a distraction, right?
00:06:25.535 --> 00:06:27.785
So there's like sort of these protective behaviors.
00:06:28.235 --> 00:06:32.225
Um, but you said like, what, c- what can we trace that back to, this conflict avoidance?
00:06:32.255 --> 00:06:43.665
And, um, there's a couple of kind of, uh, things that I kinda break down in the book around, uh, the things that anchor our beliefs.
00:06:43.735 --> 00:06:48.175
So, um, uh, it's skill, identity, and value.
00:06:48.175 --> 00:06:50.315
So skill, identity, and value anchor our beliefs.
00:06:50.315 --> 00:06:57.455
So I might, um, get really trained up in something like conf- having conflicting conversations.
00:06:57.485 --> 00:07:11.905
Maybe I go to a, you know, crucial conversations training, I get some practice, I get some skill in this area, and therefore I start to believe that I can engage in conflict because I now have the skill, right?
00:07:12.645 --> 00:07:18.725
Um, but then there's identity, which is the second part, which is like maybe there's an identity level block.
00:07:18.725 --> 00:07:29.265
Like, I'm not a person who engages in conflict or I'm, I'm a, um, like I'm a pacifist, so therefore blah, blah, blah, right?
00:07:29.265 --> 00:07:35.015
So some sort of identity block or, or anchor that's making it difficult to engage in conflict.
00:07:35.375 --> 00:07:36.495
And the last is value.
00:07:36.515 --> 00:07:38.575
So like this isn't important to me.
00:07:38.575 --> 00:07:40.935
There's other things that are more important than this.
00:07:40.975 --> 00:07:49.625
Maybe I've decided that, uh, this is not the most important fish to fry, or I've gotta be over here not doing this thing, right?
00:07:49.625 --> 00:07:52.085
So there could be a sort of a values difference.
00:07:52.485 --> 00:08:02.521
And so with that lens, it's, it can sometimes be easier to identify the, the entry point for coaching Is it, what's, what's the block here?
00:08:02.521 --> 00:08:04.821
Skill is the easiest thing to tackle, right?
00:08:04.821 --> 00:08:07.431
You just teach it and practice it, right?
00:08:07.431 --> 00:08:10.331
But those other things, a little harder
00:08:13.701 --> 00:08:14.091
Yeah.
00:08:14.691 --> 00:08:16.611
Well, let's jump to the second one though.
00:08:16.651 --> 00:08:23.661
How do you… What's your approach to help with the identity part of it?
00:08:23.661 --> 00:08:38.681
Yeah, skill is the easier one to tackle, but you could have all the skills, the framework for those conversations in the world, but if you still don't allow yourself to do it because of what you believe in your, in your mind- Yeah
00:08:38.881 --> 00:08:39.821
it doesn't matter, right?
00:08:39.941 --> 00:08:42.481
Or it does matter, but it doesn't matter to a certain extent.
00:08:42.751 --> 00:08:48.961
So, um, okay, Coach Joe, I'm, I'm struggling with, with engaging in conflict.
00:08:49.011 --> 00:08:53.371
I know the s- I know the, I know the steps, I know the, you know, I've gone to the training.
00:08:54.241 --> 00:08:55.581
What do you- Well- How are you gonna help me?
00:08:55.591 --> 00:08:59.401
So, so let's take it like, I have enough evidence.
00:08:59.481 --> 00:09:01.471
So everything is driven by evidence, right?
00:09:01.471 --> 00:09:09.951
So, um, even things like identity-based resistance shows up in the ways in which people engage.
00:09:10.091 --> 00:09:14.671
Um, so, uh, a- and there's patterns that emerge.
00:09:14.671 --> 00:09:21.841
So like maybe you're actually really okay in engaging in conflict when it's your peer, but it's actually your boss that's the problem.
00:09:22.211 --> 00:09:28.611
Um, or, uh, you can do it fine if it's one-on-one, but you can't do it in a group setting, right?
00:09:28.611 --> 00:09:45.581
So like we gotta understand the patterns first because that pattern, that pattern analysis kind of be- not kind of, it becomes your evidence that you kinda put on the table to help us understand and parse out like what's actually true here.
00:09:45.591 --> 00:09:51.571
When we say that you're not good at conflict, is that actually true?
00:09:52.971 --> 00:10:01.071
Because we have X evidence, Y evidence, Z evidence in which, ah, you actually are pretty good at conflict.
00:10:02.131 --> 00:10:06.112
Let me tell, let me… Do you remember that interaction that you had with that kid in that hallway?
00:10:06.112 --> 00:10:06.561
Oh yeah.
00:10:06.561 --> 00:10:08.801
You know how co- how conflict works, right?
00:10:08.801 --> 00:10:23.321
So you can use the evidence that you've collected to ex- either, whatever, it's an identity block or a value block, expand identity or connect the action to the particular values that you know are important to that person.
00:10:23.991 --> 00:10:29.181
Uh, and I break down a bunch of that stuff in the book, like real technical pieces, like almost like a decision tree.
00:10:29.191 --> 00:10:30.801
Like if this, then this, you know?
00:10:31.041 --> 00:10:33.011
Kind of nerdy stuff.
00:10:33.111 --> 00:10:33.301
Yeah.
00:10:34.471 --> 00:10:35.151
Very cool.
00:10:35.271 --> 00:10:35.551
Yeah
00:10:38.713 --> 00:10:53.603
Wha- at what point did you realize that, you know, 'cause s- seems like so much of your book is, is really around kind of the, the belief in oneself or belief in their, in their, um, what they can do versus what they are doing.
00:10:53.603 --> 00:11:03.233
So what, what point did you realize the real barrier in coaching wasn't so much skill but belief, and, and how did that kinda get flushed out in your own coaching?
00:11:03.243 --> 00:11:15.913
Yeah, I mean, I can pinpoint it back to many, many teachers in many, many situations, but I'll, I'll give an example of a teacher that we worked on directions for I don't even know how long.
00:11:16.903 --> 00:11:19.363
So many weeks we were working on directions.
00:11:19.433 --> 00:11:21.663
MVP, mo- movement, verbal participation.
00:11:21.673 --> 00:11:22.403
Let's script it.
00:11:22.403 --> 00:11:23.463
Let's rehearse it, you know.
00:11:24.103 --> 00:11:29.243
Week after week, and every week it was like no progress was made.
00:11:30.273 --> 00:11:35.193
And finally, there was one day that we were practicing, and I was like, "I don't believe you.
00:11:35.663 --> 00:11:37.983
Like, I don't believe in anything you're saying right now.
00:11:38.313 --> 00:11:48.123
None of the directions you are giving me, I believe in anything you're saying." And I was like, "Well, you know, 'cause actually belief is the thing that, like, kind of is the driver behind even presence."
00:11:48.603 --> 00:11:52.473
Uh, and so I broke down directions by belief.
00:11:52.523 --> 00:12:01.863
And I said, "Let's think about these beliefs as we're practicing." Uh, and I said, "You have to belief in, you have to believe in kids.
00:12:02.113 --> 00:12:03.053
All kids can do it.
00:12:03.093 --> 00:12:04.973
You have to belief in s- believe in self.
00:12:05.343 --> 00:12:08.783
I am the leader to get them to do it, and you have to believe in the content.
00:12:08.853 --> 00:12:10.343
This is the only thing that matters right now.
00:12:10.373 --> 00:12:11.273
Nothing else matters.
00:12:11.523 --> 00:12:13.843
Not your bathroom break, not your pencil issue.
00:12:13.883 --> 00:12:14.673
Nothing else matters.
00:12:14.683 --> 00:12:21.963
Content matters." So kid, self, content. I said, "I need you to believe all three of those things when you give that direction now.
00:12:22.343 --> 00:12:29.033
Practice again." And she did, and it was way different.
00:12:29.433 --> 00:12:35.423
Like, the way in which she just showed up, like, the shoulders, the way she, like, commanded the room.
00:12:35.433 --> 00:12:42.133
I was like, "Girl, I believe you now. Now do that in front of your children." And it, it, you know, it was slow.
00:12:42.133 --> 00:12:46.283
It wasn't perfect, but it was a hu- it was a huge eye-opener for me.
00:12:46.563 --> 00:12:52.103
Belief is the thing that was driving the practice and whether it could even work at all.
00:12:56.037 --> 00:12:57.267
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
00:12:57.407 --> 00:13:03.917
I mean, really, it's like, you know, I, I don't know, I'm picturing myself back in front of a faculty meeting, you know?
00:13:03.917 --> 00:13:30.547
If I'm, if I'm up there just trying to rehearse a script and, and, you know, sharing either information or, or trying to, you know, teach or, or whatever, that's
very different than if it's coming from, like, this, like, internal, you know, belief that what I'm saying or what we're doing right now is, is really important.
00:13:30.597 --> 00:13:35.577
Like, the way I'm, I'm gonna approach that is gonna be very different.
00:13:35.607 --> 00:13:43.057
And so that's a, that's an interesting… The way you kind of captured that, um, totally makes sense to me.
00:13:43.057 --> 00:13:53.747
And if, if they don't, if they're just kind of going through the motions- Not gonna have the impact or even- That's not gonna have the impact or even- Even stick- Even stick to, to really- Make an impact for what they're trying to do
00:13:54.167 --> 00:13:55.697
make an impact for what they're trying to do.
00:13:55.947 --> 00:13:56.367
So I love that.
00:13:57.877 --> 00:13:58.387
Apparently I'm getting a little bit of feedback.
00:13:58.387 --> 00:13:58.467
Yeah, I'm getting a little bit of feedback.
00:13:58.467 --> 00:13:58.807
Yeah, I'm sorry.
00:13:59.097 --> 00:14:03.437
I think my, my headphones kinda died on me.
00:14:04.187 --> 00:14:05.077
Can you hear me still?
00:14:06.327 --> 00:14:06.747
Yeah, I just
00:14:08.897 --> 00:14:10.897
need to turn off ech- echo cancellation.
00:14:10.907 --> 00:14:11.017
Yeah, I just need to turn off ech- echo cancellation.
00:14:11.017 --> 00:14:11.047
Sorry about that.
00:14:11.087 --> 00:14:11.577
That's no worries.
00:14:11.577 --> 00:14:12.047
No worries.
00:14:12.817 --> 00:14:13.527
That's no worries.
00:14:13.527 --> 00:14:14.007
No worries.
00:14:14.207 --> 00:14:14.637
Um.
00:14:16.137 --> 00:14:16.687
Um.
00:14:16.707 --> 00:14:19.497
So in your current work, you're working with school leaders.
00:14:19.497 --> 00:14:21.277
So in your current work, you're working with school leaders.
00:14:21.377 --> 00:14:21.407
Yep.
00:14:21.407 --> 00:14:23.217
How many leaders do you, do you, do you coach in a week?
00:14:23.227 --> 00:14:24.447
How many leaders do you, do you coach in a week?
00:14:24.447 --> 00:14:26.437
I, right now I have 12 leaders that I work with
00:14:28.781 --> 00:14:30.461
And you on a regular routine with them?
00:14:30.461 --> 00:14:30.821
Yeah.
00:14:31.101 --> 00:14:31.281
Yeah.
00:14:31.281 --> 00:14:32.511
And you on a regular routine with them?
00:14:32.511 --> 00:14:33.711
And, uh, it's typically about weekly.
00:14:33.751 --> 00:14:38.201
Um, you know, this time of year they're, they're wrapping up the school year.
00:14:38.201 --> 00:14:39.881
We're doing school planning work.
00:14:39.881 --> 00:14:45.671
And so it just looks, the cadence looks a little different for each person because every context is so different.
00:14:45.731 --> 00:14:51.321
That's what I love about coaching is that, um, you get to see a lot of stuff.
00:14:51.351 --> 00:15:03.181
There, there's a lot of opportunities for pattern recognition and that's what I love about, you know, this type of work that I think coaches… Co- coaches get kind of a little bit of a bad rap.
00:15:03.221 --> 00:15:05.651
You know, like are you even doing anything?
00:15:06.021 --> 00:15:07.601
Like I get, I get that.
00:15:07.921 --> 00:15:13.891
Um, but one of the things that like I think coaches need to do is, is package their wisdom.
00:15:13.931 --> 00:15:16.531
Like make, because we see a lot.
00:15:16.571 --> 00:15:38.951
We s- we are able to sort of pick up on patterns that other people don't have nor, and since we have that kind of privilege of, of learning be the pr- being the primary
driver, um, I think coaches need to do a better job of, of spreading their wisdom which is, you know, part of my mission with the Substack and Instagram and TikTok, right?
00:15:38.951 --> 00:15:42.751
Is s- just spread s- we gotta be learning faster.
00:15:43.181 --> 00:15:45.111
Our kids need us to be learning faster.
00:15:45.601 --> 00:15:47.391
Um- Yeah … and yeah.
00:15:47.941 --> 00:15:48.131
Yeah.
00:15:48.541 --> 00:15:51.691
I would imagine, gosh, I would get so much feedback.
00:15:51.871 --> 00:16:13.271
So a question I have is as you're, you know, based on, you know, what you've learned both as a coach but also kind of taking out key things from your, from your book, how, you know, we
have these listeners that are, you know, current school leaders and maybe they don't have a coach that it's gonna help them identify kinda what their, their mental f- mental fossils are.
00:16:13.601 --> 00:16:24.141
What tips or strategies do you have, suggestions, um, on how principals, um, can begin spotting their own mental fossils?
00:16:24.231 --> 00:16:34.951
Um, so if they didn't have the coach, like what are, what are kind of reflection exercises might they be able to do or do they just really need an instruc- a, a coach to kinda help, help flush that out?
00:16:34.951 --> 00:16:36.631
Um, the answer is no, you don't need a coach.
00:16:36.701 --> 00:16:39.721
Um, but y- you need good people around you.
00:16:39.781 --> 00:16:45.631
Uh, I think of mental fossils as very much like, um, you know, sometimes you get stuff stuck in your teeth, right?
00:16:45.671 --> 00:16:50.661
Like so sometimes you gotta be like, "Hey man, you got, you got, you got some stuff stuck in your teeth." Right?
00:16:52.579 --> 00:16:54.979
Wait, are you talking, are you talking right now to me?
00:16:54.979 --> 00:16:58.885
Do I, you know So you like, you need- I'm okay Like you need, you need some good people- Carry on.
00:16:58.885 --> 00:16:59.129
Yeah, I love that.
00:16:59.129 --> 00:17:00.489
Like we all get stuck.
00:17:00.499 --> 00:17:17.999
Like we all get stuck in weird places, and this is one of the like most horrific thing about writing this book and marketing this book is that I had to model a lot, which is a very vulnerable position to be in, to be honest.
00:17:18.109 --> 00:17:35.719
Um, but, uh, but it, it actually, the, that practice both in writing and publicizing and practicing the, the concepts of in, in the book, um, it, it really taught me that this work is personal.
00:17:35.729 --> 00:17:43.869
Like you can actually do a lot of work yourself, um, that doesn't require someone to call out the stuff in your teeth.
00:17:43.869 --> 00:17:47.949
Like you can actually just look in the mirror and be like, "Oh wow, there's that thing in my tooth," right?
00:17:48.409 --> 00:18:07.939
Um, so, so there's three like core behaviors that you can really spot in yourself that'll be like, "Ooh, there's something up with me right now." Um, even if you're
not like consciously aware of it, it's just kind of like a, "Oh, there's a pattern, there's a behavior here that I need to pay attention to," and that's detaching.
00:18:08.199 --> 00:18:16.749
So if you start to like disconnect from people, um, you don't go to lunch anymore, you, you know, skip the meeting early, whatever, right?
00:18:16.999 --> 00:18:18.419
Um, you start surrendering.
00:18:18.419 --> 00:18:21.659
You start being like, "Whatever." Like, "I don't, it's not my problem.
00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.359
It's someone else's problem." Um, or you start overcompensating.
00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:26.839
You start like overworking.
00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:28.009
You rebuild systems.
00:18:28.009 --> 00:18:34.023
You, you know- Start to m-m create problems that never existed, right?
00:18:34.403 --> 00:18:40.933
Um, those, those patterns are s- behavior signals that you're protecting something.
00:18:41.503 --> 00:19:00.323
Uh, and you're either protecting, um… You have some sort of distorted belief and, and you can root that back to three kind of core things, which is distorted beliefs about change, um, uh, about people or connection, relationships, or about power hierarchy.
00:19:00.343 --> 00:19:07.133
So those are like, kind of often the core root cause of like, all right, I'm, I'm being funky here.
00:19:07.143 --> 00:19:09.213
Like, you'll see me in certain meetings.
00:19:09.523 --> 00:19:10.683
I'll be a ghost.
00:19:10.853 --> 00:19:12.053
No one will see me.
00:19:12.763 --> 00:19:17.553
Um, like I am engaging perfectly w- fine with you, like you won't see me.
00:19:17.923 --> 00:19:22.373
Uh, and it is often because of my distorted beliefs about power and change.
00:19:23.243 --> 00:19:32.483
Because if I say something, these people in power, I can't control it anyways, so I'm just gonna sit here and be silent, right?
00:19:32.613 --> 00:19:44.573
Even though I, like can academically tell myself that, but I have enough evidence in front of me that cr- has created this belief that is now driving my behavior.
00:19:45.103 --> 00:19:47.703
And like, I'm a leadership coach.
00:19:48.303 --> 00:19:54.063
Like a leadership-- A person that's a leadership coach doesn't disappear in meetings, right?
00:19:54.163 --> 00:19:56.753
That's s- that's a signal, right?
00:19:56.783 --> 00:19:58.223
That, that we need to pay attention.
00:20:03.123 --> 00:20:13.273
Are you-- So if you're self-aware and reflective enough, and you pick up on these behaviors that are these signals, then what?
00:20:13.473 --> 00:20:15.963
Okay, so, so I'm seeing that.
00:20:15.963 --> 00:20:17.403
W-what can I do now?
00:20:17.433 --> 00:20:20.953
What, what-- How do I- Uh, micro practice.
00:20:21.033 --> 00:20:22.563
Uh, practice is everything.
00:20:22.563 --> 00:20:23.603
Practice is everything.
00:20:24.003 --> 00:20:36.003
Um, 'cause I have these distorted beliefs, right, about change in power, and so I have an opportunity to, to gather new evidence as to whether that belief is true or not.
00:20:36.473 --> 00:20:40.783
And so I can do that in, like, small, subtle ways.
00:20:40.783 --> 00:20:57.833
I can do little practice and say, "I'm gonna try this thing and see if my conclusion is true or not," whether I'm acting off a, a mental fossil, some sort of false belief, whether that was rooted in a previous environment or my current environment, right?
00:20:57.863 --> 00:21:13.413
That is, that is holding me back from being the type of leader or person rooted in my values and, you know, connected to the goals that I have for both myself and my team and my outcomes that I'm striving towards, right?
00:21:13.903 --> 00:21:16.113
So yeah, I mean, practice.
00:21:16.123 --> 00:21:17.453
You h- just have to practice.
00:21:17.463 --> 00:21:18.363
You just have to do it
00:21:20.453 --> 00:21:22.103
It's, it sounds simple, but it's not.
00:21:26.613 --> 00:21:33.483
But you're, but you're right, and that's kind of true in just about everything that we do is, is it, it just doesn't happen.
00:21:33.483 --> 00:21:40.063
You have to make s- moves forward to practice and, and hopefully get some success, and it doesn't, you know.
00:21:40.363 --> 00:21:47.593
And that practice leads into kind of more confidence and, and, uh, yeah, and behavior change o- overall.
00:21:47.603 --> 00:21:50.243
So, um, I totally hear what you're saying.
00:21:50.643 --> 00:21:57.793
Um Question I have, like g- give me some practical, like, coaching moves.
00:21:57.793 --> 00:22:08.233
So what are some practical coaching moves school leaders could try tomorrow that create more of a, I guess, that deeper reflection instead of just kinda surface level?
00:22:08.243 --> 00:22:23.633
Because I think sometimes you just get into this mode of leading and doing and, and, and maybe we're not as reflective as we should be on a regular basis, especially when things get really busy like this, this time of year is.
00:22:23.963 --> 00:22:35.327
So what kind of practical coaching moves can school leaders try today, tomorrow, um, to get to create deeper reflection, um, on their- Yeah … behaviors and what they do?
00:22:35.327 --> 00:22:43.993
I think if you're, if you're talking about at, at, like, the personal level, um, I, I think the very first thing is just, like, commit to studying yourself.
00:22:44.353 --> 00:22:48.873
Like, commit to understanding the patterns in which you are existing in various spaces.
00:22:49.313 --> 00:22:53.393
Um, and so at… That's, like, a personal thing.
00:22:53.893 --> 00:23:03.243
But if we're thinking about kind of leading others, and especially it's, you know, I'm not sure when this is gonna come out, but it's Teacher Appreciation Week, um, this week.
00:23:03.313 --> 00:23:06.233
Teachers are amazing, and I'm, like, a super fan.
00:23:06.683 --> 00:23:16.703
And, and there's an Ed, Ed Week study about what teachers actually want for Teacher Appreciation Week, and they actually want really specific praise from their leader.
00:23:17.393 --> 00:23:28.653
Um, and so, like, my, my push, uh, in honor of Teacher Appreciation Week is for people, uh, for leaders to praise thinking.
00:23:29.603 --> 00:23:32.523
Um, praise good judgment.
00:23:33.153 --> 00:23:53.753
Um, because, uh, we, uh, are in the business of thinking, and then the more that we are recognizing the, the, uh, thinking that is driving our behavior, the more that we can call it out when it's not productive.
00:23:54.833 --> 00:23:59.373
Um, we are working in incredibly inequitable systems.
00:23:59.893 --> 00:24:10.633
Our systems are built on shitty beliefs about our kids, about our families, about our teachers, about our principals, and we have to be able to disrupt them.
00:24:10.913 --> 00:24:30.893
But we also need to be able to see when there are bright spots in the ways in which people are showing up and thinking and being thoughtful
leaders and being part of the solutions, and we can do that every moment of every day, praising people that are doing good thinking
00:24:34.287 --> 00:24:34.917
I love that.
00:24:35.147 --> 00:24:35.547
Yeah.
00:24:36.057 --> 00:24:44.007
We just sent out a newsletter from, from Link Leaders and one last week around teacher appreciation, and that's exactly what we focused on.
00:24:44.007 --> 00:24:59.067
Not necessarily on the thinking part, but just the authenticity and specificity of, um, you know, both expressing gratitude and also appreciation, but, but being really specific and, and genuine on giving those things.
00:24:59.077 --> 00:24:59.097
Mm-hmm.
00:24:59.107 --> 00:25:01.017
And we all hunger for that, right?
00:25:01.037 --> 00:25:02.497
And it makes such a difference.
00:25:02.887 --> 00:25:07.757
Um, way mu- more d- of a difference than, you know, cookies in the faculty lounge or whatever else.
00:25:07.757 --> 00:25:08.397
Those are nice too.
00:25:08.397 --> 00:25:09.377
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:09.377 --> 00:25:09.427
Those things are nice too.
00:25:09.427 --> 00:25:09.467
Don't take those away.
00:25:09.467 --> 00:25:10.462
Don't get me wrong.
00:25:10.462 --> 00:25:11.052
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:11.052 --> 00:25:12.227
Yeah, we've gotta have the cookies.
00:25:14.277 --> 00:25:28.587
But yeah, that one, you know, authentic, um, specific, you know, praise or recognition that you receive, um, from, from someone else, it doesn't even have to be your boss, but it's great when it is.
00:25:28.907 --> 00:25:32.317
Um, that can carry you for months if not years.
00:25:32.317 --> 00:25:39.547
Like, that's… I mean, I have cards that I still hold onto from years back that's like, I, I ne- I never go back and read them, but I know where they're at.
00:25:39.557 --> 00:25:45.427
But like, those things you don't throw away, you don't, you don't forget, and they're really important, so I'm glad you brought that up.
00:25:45.687 --> 00:25:46.047
Yeah.
00:25:46.717 --> 00:25:49.317
Um, well, we're coming to an end here.
00:25:49.327 --> 00:25:56.497
What are, what else maybe that I haven't asked about your book or about your work that you'd like to share, um, with our audience today?
00:25:56.497 --> 00:26:01.037
Uh, well, okay, so I started, uh, the Substack, uh, The EduCoach Substack, then the subsequent Instagram,
00:26:03.967 --> 00:26:11.397
TikTok, like, with ha- with no plan, and I still don't have a plan.
00:26:11.937 --> 00:26:24.647
Uh, I am, I am a coach figuring it out, uh, an educator trying to make a difference in the world and, um, and- I love both of those things, by the way
00:26:24.647 --> 00:26:24.662
yeah.
00:26:24.662 --> 00:26:24.797
I love both of those things, by the way.
00:26:24.797 --> 00:26:26.387
The fact that you're just trying to figure it out.
00:26:26.387 --> 00:26:36.397
Y- y- yes, that's… Good things will happen because you're trying to- Yeah, I mean, and I, and I- Okay, sorry to interrupt … and I did it- I love, I love … I started all this in, like, probably the most desperate time of my life.
00:26:36.927 --> 00:26:43.257
Um, and i- and it's evolving and so, like, you haven't seen nothing yet.
00:26:43.847 --> 00:26:54.357
Um, this is just the beginning because, um, the human mind and a little bit of tenacity can go a whole hell of a long way.
00:26:54.887 --> 00:26:57.817
Uh, and if we're committed to practicing, yeah.
00:26:57.817 --> 00:27:03.907
Like, if we're committed to just- Preach, sister … practicing and like, just, just keep practicing, like, we can, we can do a whole lot.
00:27:04.487 --> 00:27:11.147
Um, so I'm, I'm just excited to continue to, like, just build a community of people who just wanna practice and be better for kids.
00:27:11.147 --> 00:27:17.417
Like, I… And, and I don't know if I've, if I'm ever gonna figure it all of it out, um, but you know what?
00:27:17.437 --> 00:27:23.787
In my lifetime, I think it's pretty worth it considering this is a, this is our generation's civil rights issue.
00:27:24.247 --> 00:27:29.907
Uh, and we need to build an army of people who care about our g- next generation of children.
00:27:30.257 --> 00:27:39.047
Um, and I hope that we can get as many people coming to the building as possible, that burning building as possible, because we need everyone right now.
00:27:42.655 --> 00:27:43.605
Absolutely.
00:27:43.605 --> 00:27:46.635
And maybe that's your, your final message, but I do have- Yeah, please.
00:27:46.635 --> 00:27:47.025
Yeah
00:27:50.925 --> 00:27:51.045
you know, maybe a couple more questions.
00:27:51.045 --> 00:27:56.685
Um, w- from your book, what core messages did you want y- school leaders and coaches to take away from the book?
00:27:56.685 --> 00:28:06.745
Like, what are the key things that, like, if you read this book, you're gonna walk away with this, this core message or this understanding or even new skills from your book?
00:28:06.745 --> 00:28:08.425
Um, belief- new beliefs must be practiced.
00:28:09.155 --> 00:28:13.155
Um, e- everything must be driven by practice.
00:28:13.395 --> 00:28:18.145
And, um, you cannot talk someone out of a belief.
00:28:18.685 --> 00:28:20.035
They must experience it
00:28:22.895 --> 00:28:23.185
Hmm.
00:28:23.295 --> 00:28:24.735
Yes, indeed.
00:28:24.745 --> 00:28:25.645
Mm-hmm.
00:28:25.985 --> 00:28:34.575
Last question, and you work with a lot of leaders, and you're a leader yourself, what does it mean to be a transformative leader or a transformative principal?
00:28:35.075 --> 00:28:35.235
You can choose.
00:28:35.245 --> 00:28:37.395
Uh, I think it all comes back to belief.
00:28:37.975 --> 00:28:44.805
Um, it- you cannot coach or lead or teach someone that you don't believe in.
00:28:45.625 --> 00:28:54.195
Um, and so, uh, you know, to simplify it, it starts first with believing in the person in front of you
00:28:59.493 --> 00:29:00.163
Indeed.
00:29:00.253 --> 00:29:00.773
Love it.
00:29:01.333 --> 00:29:06.963
Going back to that teacher or that you were coaching also just, you know, the believe in what you're, you're saying as well.
00:29:06.963 --> 00:29:08.603
So love it.
00:29:08.663 --> 00:29:10.613
Joe, thanks for this and, uh, where can people find the book?
00:29:10.613 --> 00:29:13.263
Uh, it's available on Amazon on May 19th.
00:29:13.273 --> 00:29:16.263
It's actually on pre-sale Kindle, um, right now.
00:29:16.363 --> 00:29:23.353
Uh, and it'll be out in, on various platforms at various points also, but Amazon May 19th
00:29:26.541 --> 00:29:26.861
Okay.
00:29:26.931 --> 00:29:27.131
Thank you.
00:29:27.131 --> 00:29:27.571
Very cool.
00:29:27.601 --> 00:29:28.691
Congratulations on that.
00:29:28.941 --> 00:29:40.851
We'll put, uh, whatever links that you wanna provide us, your LinkedIn, Substack, everything else on the show notes for the podcast so people can- Great … reach out to you directly and get information about your book.
00:29:41.201 --> 00:29:44.791
Um, I definitely plan to get a copy myself.
00:29:44.791 --> 00:29:44.811
Yay.
00:29:44.811 --> 00:29:44.821
Yay.
00:29:44.821 --> 00:29:51.151
As I work with school leaders, I need all the tools I get, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, yeah, definitely- Right on.
00:29:51.191 --> 00:29:52.781
Okay, yeah … so ping me once that's available, but I'll, I'll, uh- That's awesome.
00:29:52.801 --> 00:29:53.325
Yeah … I'll check that out.
00:29:53.325 --> 00:30:04.851
And I will… Yeah, I, there's a section, just to be clear, there's a section in the book that clarifies this, but this, it, this is a very specific coaching model for a very specific type of gap.
00:30:05.561 --> 00:30:10.981
Like, it, you know, co- skill-ga-based co- coaching is different than belief-based coaching.
00:30:10.991 --> 00:30:12.691
So anyways, you'll see it.
00:30:12.951 --> 00:30:13.161
Yeah.
00:30:14.431 --> 00:30:14.591
Awesome.
00:30:14.621 --> 00:30:15.131
All right.
00:30:15.841 --> 00:30:16.581
Looking forward to it.
00:30:17.091 --> 00:30:20.271
Jo, thank- thanks so mu- so much for being part of the podcast today.
00:30:20.331 --> 00:30:33.131
Um, for those listening, thanks for joining us, and be sure to check out Jo Lane's book, Burn the Script: How Great Coaches Disrupt Mindsets and Transform Practice, and/or reach out to her and get some coaching.
00:30:33.291 --> 00:30:35.011
Sounds like a great opportunity.
00:30:35.051 --> 00:30:36.201
So Jo, thanks again.
00:30:36.621 --> 00:30:36.981
All right.
00:30:36.981 --> 00:30:37.123
Thanks.
00:30:37.123 --> 00:30:38.301
Appreciate having, having you on the show.
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:11.799 --> 00:00:11.949
All right.
00:00:11.949 --> 00:00:15.319
Welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal podcast.
00:00:15.319 --> 00:00:23.399
This is Mike Caldwell, your host once again, and joining me is Joe Lane from Tos- Tulsa, Oklahoma.
00:00:23.409 --> 00:00:24.019
Thank you.
00:00:24.159 --> 00:00:24.899
Joe, welcome.
00:00:26.489 --> 00:00:28.067
Well, I mean, Tulsa- How you doing so far?
00:00:28.067 --> 00:00:28.319
How are we doing?
00:00:28.319 --> 00:00:28.829
Close enough.
00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:31.989
Uh, you know, w- when I, when I first- I stumbled on Tulsa
00:00:31.989 --> 00:00:35.579
moved to Tulsa, I thought it was in Arizona, so, uh, you know, we're doing all right
00:00:39.015 --> 00:00:40.325
Okay, that makes me feel better.
00:00:40.495 --> 00:00:40.785
Yeah.
00:00:41.255 --> 00:00:44.155
So Jo, you are in education.
00:00:44.165 --> 00:00:48.365
You're currently a, a coach, I'm s- I'm assuming instructional coach.
00:00:48.395 --> 00:00:50.035
Why don't you give us a little bit of your background?
00:00:50.045 --> 00:00:51.095
This isn't an interview.
00:00:51.105 --> 00:00:51.135
Sure.
00:00:51.135 --> 00:00:51.605
You don't have to be perfect, but just give us a little bit of a feel.
00:00:51.605 --> 00:00:51.675
Yeah, so uh- Where, where are
00:00:54.625 --> 00:00:54.895
you coming from?
00:00:54.955 --> 00:00:55.645
I'm Jo.
00:00:55.645 --> 00:01:00.305
I identify as a coach, and I, I think that's important framing.
00:01:00.845 --> 00:01:06.245
Uh, as, uh, the… Right now I'm in a, a bit of transition.
00:01:06.255 --> 00:01:17.185
I have been in the, the field of educator support, adult learning, um, for, uh, 16 years now.
00:01:17.255 --> 00:01:31.345
Um, started most of my work at the teacher level, namely working in classrooms that were challenging and, uh, classrooms with a lot of emergency or alternatively certified teachers.
00:01:31.345 --> 00:01:55.155
And so, um, had the privilege of developing a lot of pattern recognition around how we support educators, specifically novice educators, and was able to kind of translate some of
that coaching practice, you know, now at the leader level, and that's what I do now, is I'm a principal coach, at least until, um, June when my contract is done 'cause of budget cuts.
00:01:55.155 --> 00:01:58.965
But, um, I'm s- always will forever be a coach
00:02:02.381 --> 00:02:02.721
Love it.
00:02:03.151 --> 00:02:05.471
Did you, were you ever an athletic coach?
00:02:05.471 --> 00:02:06.251
Uh, no, and I'm a terrible athlete.
00:02:06.341 --> 00:02:11.141
And, um, but I find myself, um, you know, picking up random hobbies.
00:02:11.171 --> 00:02:13.701
Are you into certain hobbies, right, Mike?
00:02:13.761 --> 00:02:15.301
Do you have any- I have more hobbies than I have time.
00:02:15.321 --> 00:02:17.691
Oh, I have more hobbies than I have time.
00:02:17.981 --> 00:02:19.001
Yeah, don't get me started.
00:02:19.001 --> 00:02:20.311
We could just sort of do a whole episode on hobbies.
00:02:20.311 --> 00:02:21.611
Uh, 'cause I love being bad at stuff.
00:02:21.611 --> 00:02:21.726
That'd be fun.
00:02:21.726 --> 00:02:21.802
I'm down.
00:02:21.802 --> 00:02:25.931
Like, I love being really bad at stuff because then you can get good at stuff.
00:02:26.431 --> 00:02:29.709
Uh- That's true … so I just started on a curling team- That is true.
00:02:29.709 --> 00:02:31.041
It's been fun … so that's really exciting.
00:02:31.071 --> 00:02:32.911
Um, but I'm, I'm not an athlete.
00:02:33.041 --> 00:02:34.031
Was never a coach.
00:02:36.401 --> 00:02:38.371
Curling in Oklahoma, that seems- Right?
00:02:38.371 --> 00:02:38.431
Curling in Oklahoma, that seems- Right.
00:02:38.431 --> 00:02:39.661
I know … like it doesn't fit.
00:02:39.691 --> 00:02:40.511
But- Yeah.
00:02:41.991 --> 00:02:48.531
But it's really, I mean, you, you need a real flat surface for curling and so there's- I suppose, yeah … where Oklahoma fits, I guess.
00:02:48.621 --> 00:02:48.881
Maybe.
00:02:51.251 --> 00:02:53.131
So Jo, you're working on a book.
00:02:53.141 --> 00:02:54.551
It is, uh- Or do you have it published yet?
00:02:54.561 --> 00:02:55.131
Yes.
00:02:55.181 --> 00:02:56.971
It, it is out on May 19th.
00:02:56.971 --> 00:02:57.199
Newly released.
00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:57.541
Newly released, right.
00:02:57.541 --> 00:03:02.831
Uh, it's called Burn the Script: How Great Coaches Disrupt Thinking and Transform Practice.
00:03:06.103 --> 00:03:06.473
Love it.
00:03:06.643 --> 00:03:07.953
I like the title.
00:03:08.273 --> 00:03:12.493
I read a little bit about, about the book, but let's, let's jump into that.
00:03:12.503 --> 00:03:14.963
You talk about mental fossils and things like that.
00:03:15.013 --> 00:03:17.763
I don't know what all that means, but talk about Burn the Script.
00:03:17.763 --> 00:03:18.213
What does that mean?
00:03:18.353 --> 00:03:21.173
What are you-- where are you going with, with that title?
00:03:21.173 --> 00:03:21.183
Yeah.
00:03:21.183 --> 00:03:37.183
So I think there's, uh, and, and we know this actually from just, like, understanding human behavior is there, there are certain be- uh,
actions that we take in our everyday life that we, uh, may or may not be entirely conscious of as far as the choices that we are making.
00:03:37.183 --> 00:03:44.833
We are a con- conglomeration of our previous experiences that formulate into a set of beliefs that we therefore act on.
00:03:45.353 --> 00:03:51.453
And, you know, over time, especially in the field of education, we experience a lot of, I would call, professional trauma.
00:03:52.143 --> 00:04:08.113
Um, and, uh, you know, even from the teacher who works under a, a principal that micromanages, um, to the, the teacher who had the, the student blow up in their face when they tried to give them a consequence, right?
00:04:08.113 --> 00:04:16.403
We have all these experiences that formulate into these sets of beliefs that drive our behavior.
00:04:16.853 --> 00:04:30.663
Uh, and so we might give feedback to a teacher and say, "Hey, you gotta give con- consequences consistently to students," and they won't do it, and we wonder why that happens, and it's because we're acting on a set of scripts.
00:04:30.663 --> 00:04:41.223
We're acting on a set of beliefs that need to be examined in order to change the behaviors in which may or may not be serving us at that point in time
00:04:44.709 --> 00:04:45.059
Yeah.
00:04:45.849 --> 00:04:46.299
I love it.
00:04:46.299 --> 00:05:19.985
I, I'm curious on… So I was in a one-on-one coaching call today with a school leader, a vice principal in a school, and, and our focus for, for this coaching call was, um, handling conflict or stepping into
conflict, which I've found more and more The, you know, there's so many people in school leadership positions that still have this block and avoid or delay the difficult conversations for, for a variety of reasons.
00:05:20.565 --> 00:05:28.865
And I'm curious, like, from your perspective, one, do you see the same from your, from your experience as a, as a leadership coach?
00:05:29.275 --> 00:05:33.215
And have you traced that back?
00:05:33.215 --> 00:05:54.455
Is there, is, is there some mental fossils that are kind of i- in the, I guess maybe from trauma or experiences or, or is it just do you just
chalk it up to like human nature is avoidance, avoid, and often just avoids conflict because of fear of w- possible consequences or- Yeah
00:05:54.455 --> 00:05:54.821
or outcomes from that?
00:05:54.821 --> 00:05:58.535
I think you, like, you basically just summarized the book beautifully, right?
00:05:58.585 --> 00:06:01.655
Uh, because, uh, you talked about… Yeah.
00:06:01.935 --> 00:06:02.515
Writing a book is not that hard.
00:06:02.515 --> 00:06:04.395
Yeah, I told you writing a book is not that hard.
00:06:04.395 --> 00:06:05.142
I just did it.
00:06:05.142 --> 00:06:09.405
I mean, uh, the avoid- The word avoidance is- Just kidding … the right one here, right?
00:06:09.435 --> 00:06:14.045
Is… And, and avoidance though can sometimes, um, be a little deceiving.
00:06:14.055 --> 00:06:25.535
Sometimes avoidance look like, looks like detaching or surrendering, but sometimes it also looks like overworking and overexerting in certain areas, mostly as a distraction, right?
00:06:25.535 --> 00:06:27.785
So there's like sort of these protective behaviors.
00:06:28.235 --> 00:06:32.225
Um, but you said like, what, c- what can we trace that back to, this conflict avoidance?
00:06:32.255 --> 00:06:43.665
And, um, there's a couple of kind of, uh, things that I kinda break down in the book around, uh, the things that anchor our beliefs.
00:06:43.735 --> 00:06:48.175
So, um, uh, it's skill, identity, and value.
00:06:48.175 --> 00:06:50.315
So skill, identity, and value anchor our beliefs.
00:06:50.315 --> 00:06:57.455
So I might, um, get really trained up in something like conf- having conflicting conversations.
00:06:57.485 --> 00:07:11.905
Maybe I go to a, you know, crucial conversations training, I get some practice, I get some skill in this area, and therefore I start to believe that I can engage in conflict because I now have the skill, right?
00:07:12.645 --> 00:07:18.725
Um, but then there's identity, which is the second part, which is like maybe there's an identity level block.
00:07:18.725 --> 00:07:29.265
Like, I'm not a person who engages in conflict or I'm, I'm a, um, like I'm a pacifist, so therefore blah, blah, blah, right?
00:07:29.265 --> 00:07:35.015
So some sort of identity block or, or anchor that's making it difficult to engage in conflict.
00:07:35.375 --> 00:07:36.495
And the last is value.
00:07:36.515 --> 00:07:38.575
So like this isn't important to me.
00:07:38.575 --> 00:07:40.935
There's other things that are more important than this.
00:07:40.975 --> 00:07:49.625
Maybe I've decided that, uh, this is not the most important fish to fry, or I've gotta be over here not doing this thing, right?
00:07:49.625 --> 00:07:52.085
So there could be a sort of a values difference.
00:07:52.485 --> 00:08:02.521
And so with that lens, it's, it can sometimes be easier to identify the, the entry point for coaching Is it, what's, what's the block here?
00:08:02.521 --> 00:08:04.821
Skill is the easiest thing to tackle, right?
00:08:04.821 --> 00:08:07.431
You just teach it and practice it, right?
00:08:07.431 --> 00:08:10.331
But those other things, a little harder
00:08:13.701 --> 00:08:14.091
Yeah.
00:08:14.691 --> 00:08:16.611
Well, let's jump to the second one though.
00:08:16.651 --> 00:08:23.661
How do you… What's your approach to help with the identity part of it?
00:08:23.661 --> 00:08:38.681
Yeah, skill is the easier one to tackle, but you could have all the skills, the framework for those conversations in the world, but if you still don't allow yourself to do it because of what you believe in your, in your mind- Yeah
00:08:38.881 --> 00:08:39.821
it doesn't matter, right?
00:08:39.941 --> 00:08:42.481
Or it does matter, but it doesn't matter to a certain extent.
00:08:42.751 --> 00:08:48.961
So, um, okay, Coach Joe, I'm, I'm struggling with, with engaging in conflict.
00:08:49.011 --> 00:08:53.371
I know the s- I know the, I know the steps, I know the, you know, I've gone to the training.
00:08:54.241 --> 00:08:55.581
What do you- Well- How are you gonna help me?
00:08:55.591 --> 00:08:59.401
So, so let's take it like, I have enough evidence.
00:08:59.481 --> 00:09:01.471
So everything is driven by evidence, right?
00:09:01.471 --> 00:09:09.951
So, um, even things like identity-based resistance shows up in the ways in which people engage.
00:09:10.091 --> 00:09:14.671
Um, so, uh, a- and there's patterns that emerge.
00:09:14.671 --> 00:09:21.841
So like maybe you're actually really okay in engaging in conflict when it's your peer, but it's actually your boss that's the problem.
00:09:22.211 --> 00:09:28.611
Um, or, uh, you can do it fine if it's one-on-one, but you can't do it in a group setting, right?
00:09:28.611 --> 00:09:45.581
So like we gotta understand the patterns first because that pattern, that pattern analysis kind of be- not kind of, it becomes your evidence that you kinda put on the table to help us understand and parse out like what's actually true here.
00:09:45.591 --> 00:09:51.571
When we say that you're not good at conflict, is that actually true?
00:09:52.971 --> 00:10:01.071
Because we have X evidence, Y evidence, Z evidence in which, ah, you actually are pretty good at conflict.
00:10:02.131 --> 00:10:06.112
Let me tell, let me… Do you remember that interaction that you had with that kid in that hallway?
00:10:06.112 --> 00:10:06.561
Oh yeah.
00:10:06.561 --> 00:10:08.801
You know how co- how conflict works, right?
00:10:08.801 --> 00:10:23.321
So you can use the evidence that you've collected to ex- either, whatever, it's an identity block or a value block, expand identity or connect the action to the particular values that you know are important to that person.
00:10:23.991 --> 00:10:29.181
Uh, and I break down a bunch of that stuff in the book, like real technical pieces, like almost like a decision tree.
00:10:29.191 --> 00:10:30.801
Like if this, then this, you know?
00:10:31.041 --> 00:10:33.011
Kind of nerdy stuff.
00:10:33.111 --> 00:10:33.301
Yeah.
00:10:34.471 --> 00:10:35.151
Very cool.
00:10:35.271 --> 00:10:35.551
Yeah
00:10:38.713 --> 00:10:53.603
Wha- at what point did you realize that, you know, 'cause s- seems like so much of your book is, is really around kind of the, the belief in oneself or belief in their, in their, um, what they can do versus what they are doing.
00:10:53.603 --> 00:11:03.233
So what, what point did you realize the real barrier in coaching wasn't so much skill but belief, and, and how did that kinda get flushed out in your own coaching?
00:11:03.243 --> 00:11:15.913
Yeah, I mean, I can pinpoint it back to many, many teachers in many, many situations, but I'll, I'll give an example of a teacher that we worked on directions for I don't even know how long.
00:11:16.903 --> 00:11:19.363
So many weeks we were working on directions.
00:11:19.433 --> 00:11:21.663
MVP, mo- movement, verbal participation.
00:11:21.673 --> 00:11:22.403
Let's script it.
00:11:22.403 --> 00:11:23.463
Let's rehearse it, you know.
00:11:24.103 --> 00:11:29.243
Week after week, and every week it was like no progress was made.
00:11:30.273 --> 00:11:35.193
And finally, there was one day that we were practicing, and I was like, "I don't believe you.
00:11:35.663 --> 00:11:37.983
Like, I don't believe in anything you're saying right now.
00:11:38.313 --> 00:11:48.123
None of the directions you are giving me, I believe in anything you're saying." And I was like, "Well, you know, 'cause actually belief is the thing that, like, kind of is the driver behind even presence."
00:11:48.603 --> 00:11:52.473
Uh, and so I broke down directions by belief.
00:11:52.523 --> 00:12:01.863
And I said, "Let's think about these beliefs as we're practicing." Uh, and I said, "You have to belief in, you have to believe in kids.
00:12:02.113 --> 00:12:03.053
All kids can do it.
00:12:03.093 --> 00:12:04.973
You have to belief in s- believe in self.
00:12:05.343 --> 00:12:08.783
I am the leader to get them to do it, and you have to believe in the content.
00:12:08.853 --> 00:12:10.343
This is the only thing that matters right now.
00:12:10.373 --> 00:12:11.273
Nothing else matters.
00:12:11.523 --> 00:12:13.843
Not your bathroom break, not your pencil issue.
00:12:13.883 --> 00:12:14.673
Nothing else matters.
00:12:14.683 --> 00:12:21.963
Content matters." So kid, self, content. I said, "I need you to believe all three of those things when you give that direction now.
00:12:22.343 --> 00:12:29.033
Practice again." And she did, and it was way different.
00:12:29.433 --> 00:12:35.423
Like, the way in which she just showed up, like, the shoulders, the way she, like, commanded the room.
00:12:35.433 --> 00:12:42.133
I was like, "Girl, I believe you now. Now do that in front of your children." And it, it, you know, it was slow.
00:12:42.133 --> 00:12:46.283
It wasn't perfect, but it was a hu- it was a huge eye-opener for me.
00:12:46.563 --> 00:12:52.103
Belief is the thing that was driving the practice and whether it could even work at all.
00:12:56.037 --> 00:12:57.267
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
00:12:57.407 --> 00:13:03.917
I mean, really, it's like, you know, I, I don't know, I'm picturing myself back in front of a faculty meeting, you know?
00:13:03.917 --> 00:13:30.547
If I'm, if I'm up there just trying to rehearse a script and, and, you know, sharing either information or, or trying to, you know, teach or, or whatever, that's
very different than if it's coming from, like, this, like, internal, you know, belief that what I'm saying or what we're doing right now is, is really important.
00:13:30.597 --> 00:13:35.577
Like, the way I'm, I'm gonna approach that is gonna be very different.
00:13:35.607 --> 00:13:43.057
And so that's a, that's an interesting… The way you kind of captured that, um, totally makes sense to me.
00:13:43.057 --> 00:13:53.747
And if, if they don't, if they're just kind of going through the motions- Not gonna have the impact or even- That's not gonna have the impact or even- Even stick- Even stick to, to really- Make an impact for what they're trying to do
00:13:54.167 --> 00:13:55.697
make an impact for what they're trying to do.
00:13:55.947 --> 00:13:56.367
So I love that.
00:13:57.877 --> 00:13:58.387
Apparently I'm getting a little bit of feedback.
00:13:58.387 --> 00:13:58.467
Yeah, I'm getting a little bit of feedback.
00:13:58.467 --> 00:13:58.807
Yeah, I'm sorry.
00:13:59.097 --> 00:14:03.437
I think my, my headphones kinda died on me.
00:14:04.187 --> 00:14:05.077
Can you hear me still?
00:14:06.327 --> 00:14:06.747
Yeah, I just
00:14:08.897 --> 00:14:10.897
need to turn off ech- echo cancellation.
00:14:10.907 --> 00:14:11.017
Yeah, I just need to turn off ech- echo cancellation.
00:14:11.017 --> 00:14:11.047
Sorry about that.
00:14:11.087 --> 00:14:11.577
That's no worries.
00:14:11.577 --> 00:14:12.047
No worries.
00:14:12.817 --> 00:14:13.527
That's no worries.
00:14:13.527 --> 00:14:14.007
No worries.
00:14:14.207 --> 00:14:14.637
Um.
00:14:16.137 --> 00:14:16.687
Um.
00:14:16.707 --> 00:14:19.497
So in your current work, you're working with school leaders.
00:14:19.497 --> 00:14:21.277
So in your current work, you're working with school leaders.
00:14:21.377 --> 00:14:21.407
Yep.
00:14:21.407 --> 00:14:23.217
How many leaders do you, do you, do you coach in a week?
00:14:23.227 --> 00:14:24.447
How many leaders do you, do you coach in a week?
00:14:24.447 --> 00:14:26.437
I, right now I have 12 leaders that I work with
00:14:28.781 --> 00:14:30.461
And you on a regular routine with them?
00:14:30.461 --> 00:14:30.821
Yeah.
00:14:31.101 --> 00:14:31.281
Yeah.
00:14:31.281 --> 00:14:32.511
And you on a regular routine with them?
00:14:32.511 --> 00:14:33.711
And, uh, it's typically about weekly.
00:14:33.751 --> 00:14:38.201
Um, you know, this time of year they're, they're wrapping up the school year.
00:14:38.201 --> 00:14:39.881
We're doing school planning work.
00:14:39.881 --> 00:14:45.671
And so it just looks, the cadence looks a little different for each person because every context is so different.
00:14:45.731 --> 00:14:51.321
That's what I love about coaching is that, um, you get to see a lot of stuff.
00:14:51.351 --> 00:15:03.181
There, there's a lot of opportunities for pattern recognition and that's what I love about, you know, this type of work that I think coaches… Co- coaches get kind of a little bit of a bad rap.
00:15:03.221 --> 00:15:05.651
You know, like are you even doing anything?
00:15:06.021 --> 00:15:07.601
Like I get, I get that.
00:15:07.921 --> 00:15:13.891
Um, but one of the things that like I think coaches need to do is, is package their wisdom.
00:15:13.931 --> 00:15:16.531
Like make, because we see a lot.
00:15:16.571 --> 00:15:38.951
We s- we are able to sort of pick up on patterns that other people don't have nor, and since we have that kind of privilege of, of learning be the pr- being the primary
driver, um, I think coaches need to do a better job of, of spreading their wisdom which is, you know, part of my mission with the Substack and Instagram and TikTok, right?
00:15:38.951 --> 00:15:42.751
Is s- just spread s- we gotta be learning faster.
00:15:43.181 --> 00:15:45.111
Our kids need us to be learning faster.
00:15:45.601 --> 00:15:47.391
Um- Yeah … and yeah.
00:15:47.941 --> 00:15:48.131
Yeah.
00:15:48.541 --> 00:15:51.691
I would imagine, gosh, I would get so much feedback.
00:15:51.871 --> 00:16:13.271
So a question I have is as you're, you know, based on, you know, what you've learned both as a coach but also kind of taking out key things from your, from your book, how, you know, we
have these listeners that are, you know, current school leaders and maybe they don't have a coach that it's gonna help them identify kinda what their, their mental f- mental fossils are.
00:16:13.601 --> 00:16:24.141
What tips or strategies do you have, suggestions, um, on how principals, um, can begin spotting their own mental fossils?
00:16:24.231 --> 00:16:34.951
Um, so if they didn't have the coach, like what are, what are kind of reflection exercises might they be able to do or do they just really need an instruc- a, a coach to kinda help, help flush that out?
00:16:34.951 --> 00:16:36.631
Um, the answer is no, you don't need a coach.
00:16:36.701 --> 00:16:39.721
Um, but y- you need good people around you.
00:16:39.781 --> 00:16:45.631
Uh, I think of mental fossils as very much like, um, you know, sometimes you get stuff stuck in your teeth, right?
00:16:45.671 --> 00:16:50.661
Like so sometimes you gotta be like, "Hey man, you got, you got, you got some stuff stuck in your teeth." Right?
00:16:52.579 --> 00:16:54.979
Wait, are you talking, are you talking right now to me?
00:16:54.979 --> 00:16:58.885
Do I, you know So you like, you need- I'm okay Like you need, you need some good people- Carry on.
00:16:58.885 --> 00:16:59.129
Yeah, I love that.
00:16:59.129 --> 00:17:00.489
Like we all get stuck.
00:17:00.499 --> 00:17:17.999
Like we all get stuck in weird places, and this is one of the like most horrific thing about writing this book and marketing this book is that I had to model a lot, which is a very vulnerable position to be in, to be honest.
00:17:18.109 --> 00:17:35.719
Um, but, uh, but it, it actually, the, that practice both in writing and publicizing and practicing the, the concepts of in, in the book, um, it, it really taught me that this work is personal.
00:17:35.729 --> 00:17:43.869
Like you can actually do a lot of work yourself, um, that doesn't require someone to call out the stuff in your teeth.
00:17:43.869 --> 00:17:47.949
Like you can actually just look in the mirror and be like, "Oh wow, there's that thing in my tooth," right?
00:17:48.409 --> 00:18:07.939
Um, so, so there's three like core behaviors that you can really spot in yourself that'll be like, "Ooh, there's something up with me right now." Um, even if you're
not like consciously aware of it, it's just kind of like a, "Oh, there's a pattern, there's a behavior here that I need to pay attention to," and that's detaching.
00:18:08.199 --> 00:18:16.749
So if you start to like disconnect from people, um, you don't go to lunch anymore, you, you know, skip the meeting early, whatever, right?
00:18:16.999 --> 00:18:18.419
Um, you start surrendering.
00:18:18.419 --> 00:18:21.659
You start being like, "Whatever." Like, "I don't, it's not my problem.
00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.359
It's someone else's problem." Um, or you start overcompensating.
00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:26.839
You start like overworking.
00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:28.009
You rebuild systems.
00:18:28.009 --> 00:18:34.023
You, you know- Start to m-m create problems that never existed, right?
00:18:34.403 --> 00:18:40.933
Um, those, those patterns are s- behavior signals that you're protecting something.
00:18:41.503 --> 00:19:00.323
Uh, and you're either protecting, um… You have some sort of distorted belief and, and you can root that back to three kind of core things, which is distorted beliefs about change, um, uh, about people or connection, relationships, or about power hierarchy.
00:19:00.343 --> 00:19:07.133
So those are like, kind of often the core root cause of like, all right, I'm, I'm being funky here.
00:19:07.143 --> 00:19:09.213
Like, you'll see me in certain meetings.
00:19:09.523 --> 00:19:10.683
I'll be a ghost.
00:19:10.853 --> 00:19:12.053
No one will see me.
00:19:12.763 --> 00:19:17.553
Um, like I am engaging perfectly w- fine with you, like you won't see me.
00:19:17.923 --> 00:19:22.373
Uh, and it is often because of my distorted beliefs about power and change.
00:19:23.243 --> 00:19:32.483
Because if I say something, these people in power, I can't control it anyways, so I'm just gonna sit here and be silent, right?
00:19:32.613 --> 00:19:44.573
Even though I, like can academically tell myself that, but I have enough evidence in front of me that cr- has created this belief that is now driving my behavior.
00:19:45.103 --> 00:19:47.703
And like, I'm a leadership coach.
00:19:48.303 --> 00:19:54.063
Like a leadership-- A person that's a leadership coach doesn't disappear in meetings, right?
00:19:54.163 --> 00:19:56.753
That's s- that's a signal, right?
00:19:56.783 --> 00:19:58.223
That, that we need to pay attention.
00:20:03.123 --> 00:20:13.273
Are you-- So if you're self-aware and reflective enough, and you pick up on these behaviors that are these signals, then what?
00:20:13.473 --> 00:20:15.963
Okay, so, so I'm seeing that.
00:20:15.963 --> 00:20:17.403
W-what can I do now?
00:20:17.433 --> 00:20:20.953
What, what-- How do I- Uh, micro practice.
00:20:21.033 --> 00:20:22.563
Uh, practice is everything.
00:20:22.563 --> 00:20:23.603
Practice is everything.
00:20:24.003 --> 00:20:36.003
Um, 'cause I have these distorted beliefs, right, about change in power, and so I have an opportunity to, to gather new evidence as to whether that belief is true or not.
00:20:36.473 --> 00:20:40.783
And so I can do that in, like, small, subtle ways.
00:20:40.783 --> 00:20:57.833
I can do little practice and say, "I'm gonna try this thing and see if my conclusion is true or not," whether I'm acting off a, a mental fossil, some sort of false belief, whether that was rooted in a previous environment or my current environment, right?
00:20:57.863 --> 00:21:13.413
That is, that is holding me back from being the type of leader or person rooted in my values and, you know, connected to the goals that I have for both myself and my team and my outcomes that I'm striving towards, right?
00:21:13.903 --> 00:21:16.113
So yeah, I mean, practice.
00:21:16.123 --> 00:21:17.453
You h- just have to practice.
00:21:17.463 --> 00:21:18.363
You just have to do it
00:21:20.453 --> 00:21:22.103
It's, it sounds simple, but it's not.
00:21:26.613 --> 00:21:33.483
But you're, but you're right, and that's kind of true in just about everything that we do is, is it, it just doesn't happen.
00:21:33.483 --> 00:21:40.063
You have to make s- moves forward to practice and, and hopefully get some success, and it doesn't, you know.
00:21:40.363 --> 00:21:47.593
And that practice leads into kind of more confidence and, and, uh, yeah, and behavior change o- overall.
00:21:47.603 --> 00:21:50.243
So, um, I totally hear what you're saying.
00:21:50.643 --> 00:21:57.793
Um Question I have, like g- give me some practical, like, coaching moves.
00:21:57.793 --> 00:22:08.233
So what are some practical coaching moves school leaders could try tomorrow that create more of a, I guess, that deeper reflection instead of just kinda surface level?
00:22:08.243 --> 00:22:23.633
Because I think sometimes you just get into this mode of leading and doing and, and, and maybe we're not as reflective as we should be on a regular basis, especially when things get really busy like this, this time of year is.
00:22:23.963 --> 00:22:35.327
So what kind of practical coaching moves can school leaders try today, tomorrow, um, to get to create deeper reflection, um, on their- Yeah … behaviors and what they do?
00:22:35.327 --> 00:22:43.993
I think if you're, if you're talking about at, at, like, the personal level, um, I, I think the very first thing is just, like, commit to studying yourself.
00:22:44.353 --> 00:22:48.873
Like, commit to understanding the patterns in which you are existing in various spaces.
00:22:49.313 --> 00:22:53.393
Um, and so at… That's, like, a personal thing.
00:22:53.893 --> 00:23:03.243
But if we're thinking about kind of leading others, and especially it's, you know, I'm not sure when this is gonna come out, but it's Teacher Appreciation Week, um, this week.
00:23:03.313 --> 00:23:06.233
Teachers are amazing, and I'm, like, a super fan.
00:23:06.683 --> 00:23:16.703
And, and there's an Ed, Ed Week study about what teachers actually want for Teacher Appreciation Week, and they actually want really specific praise from their leader.
00:23:17.393 --> 00:23:28.653
Um, and so, like, my, my push, uh, in honor of Teacher Appreciation Week is for people, uh, for leaders to praise thinking.
00:23:29.603 --> 00:23:32.523
Um, praise good judgment.
00:23:33.153 --> 00:23:53.753
Um, because, uh, we, uh, are in the business of thinking, and then the more that we are recognizing the, the, uh, thinking that is driving our behavior, the more that we can call it out when it's not productive.
00:23:54.833 --> 00:23:59.373
Um, we are working in incredibly inequitable systems.
00:23:59.893 --> 00:24:10.633
Our systems are built on shitty beliefs about our kids, about our families, about our teachers, about our principals, and we have to be able to disrupt them.
00:24:10.913 --> 00:24:30.893
But we also need to be able to see when there are bright spots in the ways in which people are showing up and thinking and being thoughtful
leaders and being part of the solutions, and we can do that every moment of every day, praising people that are doing good thinking
00:24:34.287 --> 00:24:34.917
I love that.
00:24:35.147 --> 00:24:35.547
Yeah.
00:24:36.057 --> 00:24:44.007
We just sent out a newsletter from, from Link Leaders and one last week around teacher appreciation, and that's exactly what we focused on.
00:24:44.007 --> 00:24:59.067
Not necessarily on the thinking part, but just the authenticity and specificity of, um, you know, both expressing gratitude and also appreciation, but, but being really specific and, and genuine on giving those things.
00:24:59.077 --> 00:24:59.097
Mm-hmm.
00:24:59.107 --> 00:25:01.017
And we all hunger for that, right?
00:25:01.037 --> 00:25:02.497
And it makes such a difference.
00:25:02.887 --> 00:25:07.757
Um, way mu- more d- of a difference than, you know, cookies in the faculty lounge or whatever else.
00:25:07.757 --> 00:25:08.397
Those are nice too.
00:25:08.397 --> 00:25:09.377
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:09.377 --> 00:25:09.427
Those things are nice too.
00:25:09.427 --> 00:25:09.467
Don't take those away.
00:25:09.467 --> 00:25:10.462
Don't get me wrong.
00:25:10.462 --> 00:25:11.052
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:11.052 --> 00:25:12.227
Yeah, we've gotta have the cookies.
00:25:14.277 --> 00:25:28.587
But yeah, that one, you know, authentic, um, specific, you know, praise or recognition that you receive, um, from, from someone else, it doesn't even have to be your boss, but it's great when it is.
00:25:28.907 --> 00:25:32.317
Um, that can carry you for months if not years.
00:25:32.317 --> 00:25:39.547
Like, that's… I mean, I have cards that I still hold onto from years back that's like, I, I ne- I never go back and read them, but I know where they're at.
00:25:39.557 --> 00:25:45.427
But like, those things you don't throw away, you don't, you don't forget, and they're really important, so I'm glad you brought that up.
00:25:45.687 --> 00:25:46.047
Yeah.
00:25:46.717 --> 00:25:49.317
Um, well, we're coming to an end here.
00:25:49.327 --> 00:25:56.497
What are, what else maybe that I haven't asked about your book or about your work that you'd like to share, um, with our audience today?
00:25:56.497 --> 00:26:01.037
Uh, well, okay, so I started, uh, the Substack, uh, The EduCoach Substack, then the subsequent Instagram,
00:26:03.967 --> 00:26:11.397
TikTok, like, with ha- with no plan, and I still don't have a plan.
00:26:11.937 --> 00:26:24.647
Uh, I am, I am a coach figuring it out, uh, an educator trying to make a difference in the world and, um, and- I love both of those things, by the way
00:26:24.647 --> 00:26:24.662
yeah.
00:26:24.662 --> 00:26:24.797
I love both of those things, by the way.
00:26:24.797 --> 00:26:26.387
The fact that you're just trying to figure it out.
00:26:26.387 --> 00:26:36.397
Y- y- yes, that's… Good things will happen because you're trying to- Yeah, I mean, and I, and I- Okay, sorry to interrupt … and I did it- I love, I love … I started all this in, like, probably the most desperate time of my life.
00:26:36.927 --> 00:26:43.257
Um, and i- and it's evolving and so, like, you haven't seen nothing yet.
00:26:43.847 --> 00:26:54.357
Um, this is just the beginning because, um, the human mind and a little bit of tenacity can go a whole hell of a long way.
00:26:54.887 --> 00:26:57.817
Uh, and if we're committed to practicing, yeah.
00:26:57.817 --> 00:27:03.907
Like, if we're committed to just- Preach, sister … practicing and like, just, just keep practicing, like, we can, we can do a whole lot.
00:27:04.487 --> 00:27:11.147
Um, so I'm, I'm just excited to continue to, like, just build a community of people who just wanna practice and be better for kids.
00:27:11.147 --> 00:27:17.417
Like, I… And, and I don't know if I've, if I'm ever gonna figure it all of it out, um, but you know what?
00:27:17.437 --> 00:27:23.787
In my lifetime, I think it's pretty worth it considering this is a, this is our generation's civil rights issue.
00:27:24.247 --> 00:27:29.907
Uh, and we need to build an army of people who care about our g- next generation of children.
00:27:30.257 --> 00:27:39.047
Um, and I hope that we can get as many people coming to the building as possible, that burning building as possible, because we need everyone right now.
00:27:42.655 --> 00:27:43.605
Absolutely.
00:27:43.605 --> 00:27:46.635
And maybe that's your, your final message, but I do have- Yeah, please.
00:27:46.635 --> 00:27:47.025
Yeah
00:27:50.925 --> 00:27:51.045
you know, maybe a couple more questions.
00:27:51.045 --> 00:27:56.685
Um, w- from your book, what core messages did you want y- school leaders and coaches to take away from the book?
00:27:56.685 --> 00:28:06.745
Like, what are the key things that, like, if you read this book, you're gonna walk away with this, this core message or this understanding or even new skills from your book?
00:28:06.745 --> 00:28:08.425
Um, belief- new beliefs must be practiced.
00:28:09.155 --> 00:28:13.155
Um, e- everything must be driven by practice.
00:28:13.395 --> 00:28:18.145
And, um, you cannot talk someone out of a belief.
00:28:18.685 --> 00:28:20.035
They must experience it
00:28:22.895 --> 00:28:23.185
Hmm.
00:28:23.295 --> 00:28:24.735
Yes, indeed.
00:28:24.745 --> 00:28:25.645
Mm-hmm.
00:28:25.985 --> 00:28:34.575
Last question, and you work with a lot of leaders, and you're a leader yourself, what does it mean to be a transformative leader or a transformative principal?
00:28:35.075 --> 00:28:35.235
You can choose.
00:28:35.245 --> 00:28:37.395
Uh, I think it all comes back to belief.
00:28:37.975 --> 00:28:44.805
Um, it- you cannot coach or lead or teach someone that you don't believe in.
00:28:45.625 --> 00:28:54.195
Um, and so, uh, you know, to simplify it, it starts first with believing in the person in front of you
00:28:59.493 --> 00:29:00.163
Indeed.
00:29:00.253 --> 00:29:00.773
Love it.
00:29:01.333 --> 00:29:06.963
Going back to that teacher or that you were coaching also just, you know, the believe in what you're, you're saying as well.
00:29:06.963 --> 00:29:08.603
So love it.
00:29:08.663 --> 00:29:10.613
Joe, thanks for this and, uh, where can people find the book?
00:29:10.613 --> 00:29:13.263
Uh, it's available on Amazon on May 19th.
00:29:13.273 --> 00:29:16.263
It's actually on pre-sale Kindle, um, right now.
00:29:16.363 --> 00:29:23.353
Uh, and it'll be out in, on various platforms at various points also, but Amazon May 19th
00:29:26.541 --> 00:29:26.861
Okay.
00:29:26.931 --> 00:29:27.131
Thank you.
00:29:27.131 --> 00:29:27.571
Very cool.
00:29:27.601 --> 00:29:28.691
Congratulations on that.
00:29:28.941 --> 00:29:40.851
We'll put, uh, whatever links that you wanna provide us, your LinkedIn, Substack, everything else on the show notes for the podcast so people can- Great … reach out to you directly and get information about your book.
00:29:41.201 --> 00:29:44.791
Um, I definitely plan to get a copy myself.
00:29:44.791 --> 00:29:44.811
Yay.
00:29:44.811 --> 00:29:44.821
Yay.
00:29:44.821 --> 00:29:51.151
As I work with school leaders, I need all the tools I get, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, yeah, definitely- Right on.
00:29:51.191 --> 00:29:52.781
Okay, yeah … so ping me once that's available, but I'll, I'll, uh- That's awesome.
00:29:52.801 --> 00:29:53.325
Yeah … I'll check that out.
00:29:53.325 --> 00:30:04.851
And I will… Yeah, I, there's a section, just to be clear, there's a section in the book that clarifies this, but this, it, this is a very specific coaching model for a very specific type of gap.
00:30:05.561 --> 00:30:10.981
Like, it, you know, co- skill-ga-based co- coaching is different than belief-based coaching.
00:30:10.991 --> 00:30:12.691
So anyways, you'll see it.
00:30:12.951 --> 00:30:13.161
Yeah.
00:30:14.431 --> 00:30:14.591
Awesome.
00:30:14.621 --> 00:30:15.131
All right.
00:30:15.841 --> 00:30:16.581
Looking forward to it.
00:30:17.091 --> 00:30:20.271
Jo, thank- thanks so mu- so much for being part of the podcast today.
00:30:20.331 --> 00:30:33.131
Um, for those listening, thanks for joining us, and be sure to check out Jo Lane's book, Burn the Script: How Great Coaches Disrupt Mindsets and Transform Practice, and/or reach out to her and get some coaching.
00:30:33.291 --> 00:30:35.011
Sounds like a great opportunity.
00:30:35.051 --> 00:30:36.201
So Jo, thanks again.
00:30:36.621 --> 00:30:36.981
All right.
00:30:36.981 --> 00:30:37.123
Thanks.
00:30:37.123 --> 00:30:38.301
Appreciate having, having you on the show.
