[00:00:00] Guest 1: When you couple that with tone of voice and body language, it's really hard to mistake that message and the message that you're [00:00:10] trying to get across. Um, and you know, social sciences that only 7% of, of the, the total message is actually the words that we [00:00:20] speak at 38%. Tone of voice and 55% is body language.
What I look like when I'm speaking those words,[00:00:30] [00:00:40]
[00:00:41] Matt: strengths. Drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, a show where we discuss complex [00:00:50] issues related to work. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at Vento, hr.com, wherever you find your favorite podcasts [00:01:00] by searching, thinking inside the box.
And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time in Altspace VR. [00:01:10] In today's episode, I chat with Josh Liddell, founder and CEO of volley, a Utah based video messaging app for teams and professionals alike. [00:01:20] Josh has an interesting guy, a former school teacher, and now a serial entrepreneur.
Who's launched four tech companies since 2006. And like a lot of us Josh [00:01:30] saw the opportunity presented by the global pandemic and the inevitable shift of how we do work. So together we cover a range of topics, [00:01:40] particularly relevant. We talked about organizations in the post pandemic context and their shift to digital or hybrid interfaces.
We discussed remote team [00:01:50] communication and the importance of using video and voice to compliment text-based or email-based communications that drive true. [00:02:00] And we got real about the changing nature of social interactions within organizations. The fact is things have materially move from where they once [00:02:10] were.
And the days of meeting around the proverbial water cooler are, if nothing else reduced, they may go away altogether [00:02:20] and apps like volley. Give us an alternative that is compelling, engaging, and ultimately. Accelerates knowledge [00:02:30] transfer and communication, which ultimately is where all of us as leadership moving towards, we had a great conversation and I hope you enjoy it.
So without further ado, Joshlyn. [00:02:40] I don't like that zoom entry, Josh, but I know it's the world we live in nowadays and we are now recording. What is going to be, I know a great conversation, Josh,
[00:02:49] Guest 1: [00:02:50] so good. How are you met?
[00:02:51] Matt: I'm doing really well. Um, I'm excited to talk about all things volley, but before we get into that, maybe for those who don't know, Josh little, [00:03:00] walk us up to where we are today.
And what's your background, your experiences. What brought you to, to today's current?
[00:03:04] Guest 1: Oh, sure. Well, I'm a teacher by training. I got a degree in secondary education and taught in [00:03:10] public school for a year and realized that was not my thing. Um, and then tried to figure out what can someone with these skills do and figured out that sales is actually [00:03:20] something.
If you can motivate 11th graders, not to burn down the school, you can motivate someone to buy a thing. So I, I did well in sales, uh, kind of skipped around three fortune [00:03:30] 500 companies. Um, successful salesperson that came in had. Did sales training at a couple of those. And that was really the [00:03:40] springboard that launched me into starting my first company Maestro.
I was trying to solve a problem, scratch my own itch. I was trying to build e-learning back before there were all of the great tools that exist today, [00:03:50] and it was just really hard. And I thought there should be a company that did that, and I left to start my own company and. Pretty much every other training manager in medical and pharma, [00:04:00] which is the space we were in at the time.
Agreed. And, you know, today Maestro builds content for Facebook and Netflix and all kinds of cool companies. Um, but my [00:04:10] store was my first of four tech companies collectively, you know, uh, A couple of hundred million users across the four raised venture money. [00:04:20] I've bootstrapped, I've had two exits, a third, one anticipated, and I took a few years off before trying to figure out what it was.
I really wanted [00:04:30] to build. Um, you know, I'm not getting any younger and, um, you know, I wanted to give something big to the world. So, uh, it took about four years to [00:04:40] find the, the concept that is volley. And that was kind of the nexus of having thought about the problem, how to get the right information to the right people at the right time at work very much with [00:04:50] Bloomfire my love of asynchronous communication on tools like Snapchat or Marco polo, and then the pandemic hits.
And it's like, ah, I know what the world needs [00:05:00] a better way to commute. When they're remote. And, um, that's when we started building volley
[00:05:04] Matt: and the world. Thanks you for it. Because before that, the available infrastructure in the market was [00:05:10] needlessly saying woefully
[00:05:11] Guest 1: inappropriate. No doubt. Yeah. Well, you, you, you really only have two options to communicate with your coworkers.
You can either type, or you can talk. And [00:05:20] today we have digital versions of those options, but they're, they're really not evolved. The technology hasn't taken us to a new place other than let us do [00:05:30] that, uh, at home versus at work right. Or in an office. Um, so that's very much what we're. Trying to dig into a valise to create a new creature [00:05:40] that gives you the best of both worlds.
So if you don't know what a volley is, it's a video messaging app that allows you to share easy video messages back and forth with your team. It's the best of [00:05:50] talking with the flexibility of typing or asynchronous? Um, this is kind of the best of both worlds there. And by breaking up the turns [00:06:00] in a conversation.
A lot of magic happens. So in volley we take turns just like this conversation, Matt, like we've taken a few turns so far, except you record your turn [00:06:10] with video. And that's the big idea, which
[00:06:13] Matt: makes sense, because it's been Josh with this HR leaders business leaders can, the days [00:06:20] just from the pandemic really was becoming, taking shape.
And this is probably. March or April of 2020. And one of the big concerns was, okay, [00:06:30] this is gonna be a giant lift of course, to get thousands of employees in some cases, from a physical office into working, you know, in the home in a [00:06:40] different location, et cetera. But after that, after that, that gargantuan, you know, hardware lift, if you will, there was this question about how do we keep [00:06:50] momentum?
How do we keep culture? How do we keep connection and collaboration when we've leaned so heavily on that? On the informal, the, you know, the, the water [00:07:00] cooler chat, the meeting before and after the meeting, bumping into somebody in the hallway on the way to get a coffee, um, you know, those various elements don't exist in a [00:07:10] linear, um, digital communication, medium, you know, that a zoom that is email, that is text messages.
So I'm just, you know, I heard these problems over and over [00:07:20] and over again, and I'm guessing Josh, you did as well. And I'm, I'm curious how you, you know, why. Vali in particular bridges, the gap between those two things. [00:07:30] Yeah,
[00:07:30] Guest 1: I think, I think this is a huge insight. Simon Sinek actually just launched a video a couple of months ago that he basically saying we're we're, we're, [00:07:40] we're living on borrowed time here because we're, we're really taking advantage of.
The existing relationships that we already had, that we once built, like [00:07:50] anyone that's new is just getting plugged into those things. And we're taking advantage of that. We don't realize how important it was, those conversations. Like you mentioned, the water [00:08:00] cooler, the ad hoc conversations, the, the meeting up in the parking lot after work or seeing each other at lunch, we didn't realize how big those were until they were taken away.
And I still [00:08:10] don't think. We completely realize it because we're kind of holding our breath because of the afterglow of what we once had. Right. And so volley is focused on [00:08:20] helping make conversation flow more easily being face-to-face without being calendar calendar. So when we went, when we all went through.[00:08:30]
The need for talking, didn't go away. We still need to talk to move work forward. Um, there's only so much you can write in a slack message. There's only so much you want to write in an email [00:08:40] and then context and, and a humanity of is out the window with each of those. So you, you still need to talk to move work forward.
And what does that look like in a remote world? Well, [00:08:50] that looks like back to. Zoom's all day and this is where zoom fatigue sets in. And it's, it's kind of like, you have to pick your poison. Uh, you, [00:09:00] you can talk, uh, which is great, but it's time-bound we have to stop what we're doing. We have to get in the same place.
We have to deal with technical difficulties. So on and so forth, we all know that the [00:09:10] downsides of synchronicity, not to mention it interrupts deep work and flow and all of those things, but then the opposite is typing. And when we choose [00:09:20] to type like, and when I say type, I mean like a slack message or an email, we're doing something that we're seven times slower at naturally.
Like we are all. [00:09:30] Athletes at this thing called communication. We totally take it for granted. Even the least of us is an elite athlete at this thing that is just so dynamic and [00:09:40] rich. And for that reason, whenever we're we're in an asynchronous format, that really means typing and typing is limited in richness.
Therefore there is [00:09:50] some threshold, some sense we all have where it's like, ah, we just need to get together. We just need to get live. So with volley, we just create a way to allow you to do that. That is [00:10:00] outside of time or place you record a video message. You say what you need to say, you move on with your day.
Your coworkers can respond on their time with a video message. And these are threaded [00:10:10] and in a timeline. So it's not sharing a piece of content. It's using video as a vehicle for communication. And there's just a lot of power in the [00:10:20] asynchronous nature of this. Um, because even 10 seconds can make all of the world of difference.
If I'm writing the last line of the manifesto or [00:10:30] this last piece of code, if you tapped me on the shoulder in a virtual or a, um, uh, an office environment, you may have. Interrupted this last [00:10:40] perfect moment that I, I needed, but with a synchronous, um, we don't have that problem. You can, you can pick it up and educational research shows, even when you [00:10:50] give someone three seconds to think about the response before they have to give it, we w the, the response is fundamentally better, uh, than what is [00:11:00] currently expected in a.
In a synchronous conversation, which is 200 milliseconds. If, if you wait more than 200 milliseconds to ask your question after I stopped talking, but you don't know [00:11:10] when I'm going to stop talking, that's considered an awkwardly logging pause, and that's existence across all cultures in all languages. So lots of cool things we can [00:11:20] do with a single.
Video communication being kind of the best of both worlds. Well, fortunately
[00:11:25] Matt: for both of us, I talk really fast, Josh, so it won't be any gaps [00:11:30] of longer than the time you've listed. Um, but I think what, you're, what you're describing really, to me, it speaks to a core of. A challenge that we're facing, which is you've [00:11:40] listed that you talked about the, if you will, the learning science, the educational science, and there's an element here of communication.
If you strip away all of the, you know, the pageantry [00:11:50] around it, communication is conveying an idea from one person or from many to one person or two, many we're transferring knowledge, transferring [00:12:00] information, transferring awareness, back and forth, and. Necessary in, in any, um, organization and the tools that we talk about, whether they be social [00:12:10] media or email or telephone or video conferencing, whatever it looks like.
They're all just mechanisms to achieve the same outcome, which is we're trying to communicate and give any information back and forth. And [00:12:20] there's a science behind that that says. If we want to have information, be, be best received, be most retained. If there's a [00:12:30] key message in that information, if you want someone to retain information from that, there's a series of steps you should go through.
There's a series of sequences, some emotional triggers you [00:12:40] appreciate probably poke at like there's, there's a science behind influence and persuasion. And you know, I'm thinking of my friend, you know, prince Doman the neuro marketer who talks about the blend between marketing and neuroscience. So there's [00:12:50] absolutely messaging around.
That the only other hand jobs, you also mentioned there's social norms and there are social psychology, which in some cases actually is [00:13:00] in conflict with the learning science insofar as some of the things that you mentioned, we know that if you give people opportunity to reflect upon ideas, they generally come to.
With a more rich and [00:13:10] wholesome answer, but socially we are uncomfortable with long posits. That's one very small minute example of, of a larger issue. And I'm curious, you know, how, when you [00:13:20] think about volley, have you considered those two elements in tandem? And if so, how have you thought through how to solve for some of those challenges?
[00:13:27] Guest 1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you, you, you [00:13:30] mentioned retention retention of visual information is, is like no contest between visual and written information. And, and, and I think [00:13:40] what we're really aiming at here is does it matter what you sound like? And when you look, is it really just the words that you speak that matter?
Or is it how [00:13:50] you speak them? That really matters. And we all know the classic example there is. We need to talk. You know, if, if you were to write that in a text message, there's a lot of ways you could take [00:14:00] that. Some really good, some really terrible and everything in between. But when you couple that with tone of voice and body language, it's really hard [00:14:10] to mistake that message and the message that you're trying to get across.
Um, and you know, social sciences. The only 7% of the [00:14:20] total message is actually the words that we speak at 38% is tone of voice. And 55% is body language. What I look like when I'm speaking [00:14:30] those words. So that's, that's very much, um, part of what we're trying to solve for is yeah. Maybe you don't need to know context.
Hey [00:14:40] lunches here. That message like that's, that's a pretty thin message. Yeah. That could totally be a text for that reason. Just write a text mail. You can write text volleys or record your voice on a bad hair day [00:14:50] or share your screen or share files and docs and all of those things, of course, but what's crazy is 75% of volley sent our video volleys and people [00:15:00] come to volley for that feature.
And that's why people stay in retain is because of the value of that. And the cost of it is. Is no more than the cost of writing a [00:15:10] slack message. And in fact, I would argue it's even less because you can speak seven times faster. So you can, you can convey a lot more. You can get the essence of your idea.
You can show someone with your camera, [00:15:20] exactly what you're talking about. And if you were trying to put all of that into a text thread, like that's a lot of thinking. That's a lot of editing. That's a lot of [00:15:30] that's 10 minutes versus. You know, one minute and Bali. Well,
[00:15:34] Matt: and that's, that's the key piece here is we're talking about to your point, playing to our strengths as [00:15:40] human beings, our gifts of communication, our ability to convey complex topics and subjects and sequences and do so in an intelligent way.
That's, that's a gift [00:15:50] we have, and it's, it's easier to do that. Generally speaking by way of conversation. That's a video fantastic than it is to convey with writing and other methods as well. So it's, I'm not [00:16:00] surprised to hear. You've had some success. I mean, Josh, what are some of the challenges that companies are coming to you trying to solve for?
I mean, we've talked about remote work. We've talked about [00:16:10] the ability for people to convey messages back and forth. What are some of the, if you will use cases or some of the problems that are popping up as you talk to organizations around.
[00:16:17] Guest 1: Well, th the two top ones would, [00:16:20] would totally line up with a buffer state of remote work study cited last year, the top two problems with remote work being lack of communication and [00:16:30] loneliness or lack of connection.
And those are kind of the top two that, that we're solving for. And that's why they're looking around for something else. We'll hear things like. [00:16:40] You know, I just started a few weeks ago. I'm already finding it hard to like communicate or catch up with my boss on slack. And so we thought this could be a good solution or, [00:16:50] or from like, uh, folks who identify as introvert.
They, they, like, I have an engineer, who's a user who says, you know what, my friends on Snapchat [00:17:00] or, uh, what's. They think I'm funny. They think I'm courageous. They have this total different point of view of who I am, then the people at work it's [00:17:10] in it's because I sit in these synchronous meetings and I just don't know what to say.
I trip over my words. I'm not good thinking on the fly. I'm not good at like putting those ideas into words. I [00:17:20] need a minute to process these things. So, you know, these, these are some of the things that allow the not only the, the communication. Playing field [00:17:30] to be flattened. Uh, but it also to be increased in quality and, and, you know, the, the, the fidelity or the humanity of those messages to be [00:17:40] received in a way that is just impossible with, with a text.
So we've, um, we've been kind of diving at the heart of those problems with the [00:17:50] product, trying to figure out how to. Make connection happen a lot more easily with, within a workspace. And one of the ways that you connect with others is through human.[00:18:00]
[00:18:01] Matt: Hey everyone. It's Matt here, and I hope you're enjoying today's discussion before we continue. I want to make you aware of our latest creative [00:18:10] project, HR in VR, every Thursday at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time. All connect with technology pioneers, business executives from [00:18:20] the world's most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual retail.
And their impact on future workplace. [00:18:30] In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience in Altspace. [00:18:40] Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time for the [00:18:50] LinkedIn lives.
Or for a truly immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download Altspace on your Mac, [00:19:00] PC or VR headset, and join us live in our studio audience. There you'll have a chance to ask questions, meet me and our incredible [00:19:10] guests and connect with others from the comfort of your own home. This is the future folks.
And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the details for [00:19:20] HR and VR, along with all other relevant information in the show notes of this podcast. And now back to our discussion.[00:19:30]
[00:19:31] Guest 1: And I, you know, when you think about. Slack a joke because that's, that's not [00:19:40] gonna, that's not going to get what I want to cross and I'm not going to schedule a meeting to tell the joke. So what do I do? Well, I guess I'm just not going to tell the joke, um, or I'm going to use a gift that will [00:19:50] sort of get me there or use an emoji reaction that will sort of get me there.
Right. So there's all of those little things in between, um, that, Hey, I noticed how are you? That's [00:20:00] probably that probably shouldn't be a slack message that sort of reach out and people are going to freak out if you schedule a meeting to do one of those, maybe, but [00:20:10] just all of these little ad hoc interactions and touchpoints that can happen throughout the day, that can both increase connection as well as improve communication and in the [00:20:20] wake, because.
You know, a team using volley is constantly in the flow of work. We're constantly sinking up unblocking checking in throughout the day. For that reason, [00:20:30] we don't really have one-on-ones at volley. We really need them because we've already talked about everything that's important. And we've talked about it in high fidelity, and we've talked about it multiple [00:20:40] times a day and we rehashed it and the need, the traditional need for one-on-one isn't there.
Therefore, a lot of the things that we, that you would traditionally do synchronously in [00:20:50] a company like brainstorming or one-on-ones or stand up meetings or those sorts of things, those can actually be a single. As well, because now you have a way to do them. That [00:21:00] has the richness that you need without the synchronicity, that the putting something on a calendar sort of thing.
There's still a lot of good reasons to meet synchronously. And I [00:21:10] don't want to be misunderstood in that way. Like accountability conversations. Those should be. Those should happen singer you should not terminate someone on slack, anything that's [00:21:20] time-bound or requires a tight feedback loop. And you need a lot of iteration of different ideas.
Those things are going to be terrible asynchronous, but for everything else [00:21:30] there's volley. And we can make that. And it mirrors
[00:21:33] Matt: a lot of the thinking we've been doing at Bentall HR and Josh. We had this discussion a little bit offline before we hit the record button. I think both of our [00:21:40] organizations have found ourselves in unique positions of having to dip into our backgrounds and our histories of things you've worked on in the past, but also overlay [00:21:50] them with a modern day lens because problems today are a little bit different than they once were.
And, you know, Vali is solving a problem that had predated. Dar [00:22:00] pandemic. And there have been issues in communication and organizations for as long as I've been in the corporate world and certainly love for more of that. And there has been challenges, um, you know, in [00:22:10] organizational culture long before COVID-19 and certainly, you know, endure after.
And you have a solution that has come to the market that solves some of those challenges. And [00:22:20] at the same time, what strikes me. The, the shift of work in general, moving from more traditional [00:22:30] hierarchical top-down type, you know, waterfall, if you will, project management styles of leadership is there's this slow moving iceberg, um, [00:22:40] to agile, where organizations are learning to operate to your point more asynchronously.
To be much more focused in, on things like scrum meetings and [00:22:50] daily huddles and more, you know, fast, agile, quick communications versus the traditional here's the, you know, the weekly report that comes down, that somebody spends a full day building. Like [00:23:00] it's, it's, it's much more real time, quick and dirty.
Maybe not as fancy and as produced, but certainly high, high, high accuracy. I'm curious, like [00:23:10] for, I think about, you know, I think Josh, we're probably about the same age, but I remember my first few years in the corporate world, we didn't have blackberries. Like we had to like [00:23:20] work was done, work was done.
And we went home and like what a wonderful world that was living. I'm not going to lie. Uh, then all of a sudden someone gave you a Blackberry and said, Hey, you can do your. [00:23:30] Anywhere you want in the world. And you're like, oh my God, this is so amazing. I can't believe it until like the third day. And you're like, oh God, I have a lack of electric leash.
Now I'm always available. And always reachable. [00:23:40] And like communication has evolved along with that to now where work in life have kind of blended, they're integrated in some ways you're answering work emails on the weekend. You're, you know, at two o'clock on the, on a [00:23:50] Friday, you're going for a dentist appointment.
Like it's, everything's kinda kind of became blended. And along with that styles and comfort levels around types of communications have also shifted. [00:24:00] And I know when speaking with people in my past, you know, organizations that even just the idea of sending text messages, not too long ago, was seen as intrusive.
And I'm curious, [00:24:10] are you guys butting up against any social norms around sending videos, um, around that being, um, you know, seen as maybe not the most ideal method, [00:24:20] I understand the science behind it. I'm a hundred percent bought into the value of, of sending messages. How does you, how do you advise clients that may butt up against the.
Discomfort, if you [00:24:30] will, of sending videos and thinking about the company's Josh, that like they have a culture of not turning on their zoom videos when they're having team meetings, like places like that, where maybe they're a bit more introverted, a bit more [00:24:40] shy or video, maybe as a part of the normal culture.
How do you butt up against that? Knowing that it's ultimately a more effective method of communication? Wow.
[00:24:47] Guest 1: What a great question. And I think you [00:24:50] and I are both doing similar work right now. The world is trying to figure out. What work looks like, and we have some opportunities that were thrust upon [00:25:00] us and, and we're doing the best we can to scramble, make work, still move forward.
And, and yet we're still talking about this thing called the future of work. And what does that even look [00:25:10] like? And what could that be? And I think we all kind of collectively. Want work to be more flexible. We want it to be more bound. We expect the future of [00:25:20] work. It's not going to be more rigid. It's not going back in the box, right?
The future of work somehow. Um, well, oh wait. The, the, the name of this is thinking outside the box. So, [00:25:30] um, you know, the, the future of work is, is only going to be more flexible, more dynamic. Right? I think we all agree with that. And I can't imagine that future of work in [00:25:40] that future of work, that we're less comforted.
With video, we're less comfortable with our authentic selves and where we happen to be where we're, while we're moving work [00:25:50] forward, whether it's walking the dog or dropping off the kids or at home or in a coffee shop or in an office, the future of work is flexible. We're, we're, we're at different modalities [00:26:00] throughout the day.
And therefore in each of those modalities, you need a different way to communicate a different communication to you. Slack while walking the dog, you can't zoom in a coffee [00:26:10] shop or you shouldn't. Um, and so the, the, the communication tool for that future of work needs to be a shaped or shapeshifter, it needs to be video when you need it to be [00:26:20] video, it needs to be texting.
You need it to be, and that's all very much what we're, we're trying to do at volley. However, to your question, Yes, about 5% and that's a totally made up [00:26:30] stat, but it's just anecdotally about 5% of our users have had an issue with volley. At first, they don't quite get it. They don't feel comfortable with video.[00:26:40]
They feel. Talking to themselves, they feel like they're just recording a video of themselves and it just feels awkward. And, uh, yeah. So, [00:26:50] so as, especially for, you know, a different generation, like 20 year olds, they've been, they grew up with Snapchat. They like, this is a natural way to communicate. Of course, you're going to send a video [00:27:00] message to your friend.
Of course, you're not going to call your friend. Of course, you're not going to schedule a meeting with your friend. All right. Here's going to snap them. Um, and, uh, you know, [00:27:10] so volley for them feels very natural, but for someone yeah, our age, um, maybe it's, it does feel unnatural at first. However, we found it takes about two [00:27:20] weeks, um, for, for the aha moment to set in.
And that's not a magic number by any means, but it takes a couple of weeks to realize the power of doing [00:27:30] that and that. Vali, isn't a buttoned up communication format and it's okay that you're walking through your kitchen while you're volleying, uh, while you're [00:27:40] making lunch. And that's, that's cool because that's work that you would have had to do when you're going back to sit down at your desk after and why wouldn't you get that work done and off the plate so that you can have some [00:27:50] time for deep work or focus afterward.
It's totally cool that you're walking the dog. Can move work forward while walking the dog, or when you're waiting in line [00:28:00] to pick up your kid from school or, or something like that. So it takes a few volleys and interactions to realize that we're not only communicating [00:28:10] better and we're communicating.
Flexibly. Um, and that's worth the trade-off of feeling awkward Neff actually, after a couple of weeks, that just [00:28:20] kind of goes away and I tell them, you know, don't, don't worry about what you look like. Don't look at yourself, look at the camera. Um, and don't stare at the camera because you wouldn't do that in a [00:28:30] face-to-face conversation.
No one really has like. I's riveted on each other eyeball to eyeball contact. That's weird. So, you know, you gaze off in the [00:28:40] distance. You're going to think, look, look off camera, you know, come back to camera. It starts to become natural. Um, but it, it does, there is a learning curve and it's, it's funny, [00:28:50] you mentioned it.
That's, that's what we see here from some users, but I don't know. If I've heard from user that wasn't able to get past that, well, maybe I just wouldn't hear from user that [00:29:00] wasn't able to get past that they just stopped using it.
[00:29:02] Matt: I don't think, I think, you know what I've taken away Josh in the last year.
I mean, I'll be honest. When I was in the corporate world, I was so deeply [00:29:10] embedded in looking internally that I wasn't spending a lot of time looking outside of the four walls of the organization. A lot of corporate employees can identify with that sentiment. You're just so focused on moving the rock forward in the [00:29:20] context in which you're operating.
And the, one of the benefits of becoming an entrepreneur is that I can allow my mind to float the things that I wouldn't otherwise allow that to because sometimes allowing [00:29:30] my mind to float means that we unearth new insights or new potentials or new, um, opportunities that we wouldn't have otherwise found.
If we just focused in, on doing the same tired [00:29:40] things over and over again. And. And one thing, that's kind of a come to me over the last little while I had this for those who follow my content for a while. You know, I had this article about probably two [00:29:50] years ago. Now Josh was talking about, we need to mercifully merge marketing and HR because in my opinion, that the same skill sets the same purposes, but one's directed externally.
One's directed [00:30:00] internally, but we treat them. Treat them because one's that revenue generating functions and ones of cost center. And the reality is they both can be viewed in both lenses if you're thoughtful about it. So, but, [00:30:10] but the premise of that argument was largely communication based. My premise was, Hey, marketing and HR folks need to segment audiences.
I need to craft and [00:30:20] curate specific messages to those audiences and find a way for that those messages to resonate in such a manner that would convey an action, a decision, uh, you know, w a memory, something would have some [00:30:30] sort of output call it, impressions, call it engagement, call what you want. But there's a level of, um, you know, we're trying to communicate with human beings and, and get some residents.
And. Yeah. I [00:30:40] thought that the time that HR professionals would benefit a lot from leaning on their marketing colleagues to do things like implement brand name more effectively, or to more effectively address [00:30:50] internal communications. And one of the, the, the analogies that I use a lot. If I was in a marketing consultant and I came to your office and said, Hey, I had the perfect strategy for [00:31:00] volume.
Here's my plan. I'm going to go down to your local like copy center. I'm going to print off a thousand posters and then I'm going to print them up and staple them all over the telephone poles in your neighborhood. [00:31:10] You're guaranteed to get sick. Well, you would just say, Hey, that's a terrible idea. Thank you for leaving my office.
And by the way, I hope you're going to recycle those papers on the way back. Um, [00:31:20] but the, how many organizations stop the communications at a company-wide email and some posters up in the hallway on some cork boards. So the same premise you wouldn't offer that same [00:31:30] treatment to an external customer. You shouldn't offer it internally.
I share that long ramp because as over the course of last year, thinking about that, but also thinking about the future, it became [00:31:40] clear that we weren't taking a nuanced enough look at communication that we weren't really thoughtful about pairing the type of message with the [00:31:50] type of tool to convey the message and how we arrived at that.
Josh, which you alluded to earlier was we found ourselves into virtual world. Where we said, Hey, virtual reality, [00:32:00] doesn't solve all the world's problems. It's not the same as being in the same room. I would way rather be in the same room as my co-founder, but he's in Seattle. I'm in Vancouver until the border reopens.
That's not going to happen, [00:32:10] but anytime we want to, we can pop on virtual reality headsets and we can have through spatial awareness, a feeling of co-location and intimacy and convey messaging and have a [00:32:20] shared experience in a way. We would not be able to have an, any other contacts unless we were in the same room.
And there's significant value for that level of progression towards [00:32:30] more intimate and more immersive type environments for communication, for learning, for hiring for, for coaching. But it's not going to replace. [00:32:40] Being front row at your favorite artists concert, when they start their tour, it's not going to be the same as standing on the 50 yard line and watching your favorite football team win the super bowl.
It's [00:32:50] just not the same as being in person, but it closes, it solves for a problem. And the more that you speak about volley, the more I'm thinking. This solves for a very specific type of problem [00:33:00] that many of us just work around to your point. I probably send way more voice texts now to my team that did before the pandemic, but even voice tech can sometimes leave me lacking [00:33:10] in terms of the ability to convey emotion behind what I'm saying, for example, or things of that nature.
So, you know, I'm curious as you guys. Think about [00:33:20] these types of challenges going forward. Are there any other problems that you're thinking about trying to solve for where you think volley would be a really, really good fit?
[00:33:29] Guest 1: [00:33:30] Uh, we can go here. It may be overused or a concept that's beaten down too much, but culture is, is one that we hear a lot from [00:33:40] our users actually.
And it's, it's interesting because what, what is culture, um, Uh, I believe communication is culture. [00:33:50] W what did it use to me when we had offices? Well, was it, was it the values that were on the wall? Is that our culture? And when we don't have walls anymore, was it, [00:34:00] uh, the way our lobby looked? Was it, the soda machine that we had that was, that made our culture, and these were some things that people pointed to, but [00:34:10] if you think about it, take communication away.
What's your culture. We have no culture. There's, there's nothing there. Right? So some form of [00:34:20] communication is your culture in the way you communicate the way that you show up and help, and that the traditions and the expectations around that and the quality and the [00:34:30] fidelity, all of it equals culture, which equals trust, which equals relationships.
So I don't know, it seems maybe a little too in the [00:34:40] clouds to, to think about. You know, something like volley or VR to your point, like all of these things are right. Tool for the right job to, uh, you know, [00:34:50] as you're saying. Um, but we can now with. Constraints of the office taken away. Um, and that we're in, in this virtual environment, we [00:35:00] can now redefine what is culture and what matters to us.
And what we're finding is for it's mostly smaller teams, honestly, that are using volume right now. It's, [00:35:10] it's people, it's a team trying to do big things where stakes are high communication matters, every interaction counts. So they're looking for a way [00:35:20] to do that better. Um, and they're picking up volume instead of tools.
Slack or an Lune and using that totally instead of those, and also [00:35:30] replacing some of their zooms because they prefer that video first approach to communication because it helps them do what they're doing. Um, and, and, and make every [00:35:40] interaction count, at least as much as it possibly can in a, in a virtual world.
Right. So yeah, all of that, just say, you know, I think culture is, is maybe something we're [00:35:50] making a little bit of a dent in, and at least our corner of the world.
[00:35:53] Matt: Oh, I totally agree with you and having run engagement programs and organizations for the better part of 15 years. I can tell you that [00:36:00] there's absolutely a degree of art and science.
And if I strip away the art and put the science on the table for a second, a good engagement strategy is predicated on a couple of key principles. [00:36:10] One, you need to go and talk to your employees and ask them the right questions to need to collect that information. Three, you need to decide what you're going to do with that information, if [00:36:20] anything, and then four, you need to be able to communicate back to your employees, what you've done with the information, if anything, and thank them for their feedback.
And you repeat that over and over and over and over again. And [00:36:30] all of those steps involve communication. So culture is communication. Communication is culture they're interchangeable. And I agree with you. I think as you got. Address and solve [00:36:40] for communication challenges. You're going to surface cultural challenges that come up as a result.
Um, whether that's the manager that doesn't share information within their team, because they're afraid of the fact that their team [00:36:50] might know more than them and that they feel insecure about that. Whether it's, um, you know, confidentiality concerns raised from one department to another where they. Cross functionally [00:37:00] collaborate, even though the both parties would benefit from the information, like all those weird, odd things that pop up in corporate cultures, we call them politics.
Those things start to become those walls. Start to come [00:37:10] down. When we find a more seamless, integrated, thoughtful method of communications. And I'm really excited, Josh, he took a chance to connect today. Um, as you go forward, what's next on [00:37:20] your plate. What's the next 12 months look like for Josh?
[00:37:23] Guest 1: Oh, it's just working with our users, learning from them and just trying to build the ultimate product to help, you know, [00:37:30] teams improve communication, increased connection, and reduce meetings.
We're pretty maniacally focused on, on that goal. And so we've got a lot of fun features that [00:37:40] we're playing. We're working on like a pretty amazing transcription tool set right now. So that, because what we've heard is, well, videos are. Very rich and [00:37:50] communicate, you know, a ton and are very valuable.
They're also hard to parse and they feel intimidating. Um, and when you get behind in volley, it feels like a job to catch up. [00:38:00] So we're just solving for those things. That's, that's kind of the short term, but, um, yeah, it's really just, um, focusing on users and finding that user led group. Josh.
[00:38:09] Matt: [00:38:10] Thank you so much for taking the time today to connect.
I was eager to chat with you for a few reasons, and I'm glad we had a chance to do that. It's just, this is a topic that is going to increasingly become on everyone's agenda. [00:38:20] As leaders, as individual contributors, as organizations, we need to find better ways to communicate, to connect, to collaborate. And I'm glad [00:38:30] that individuals like yourself are trying to think through better ways for us.
Well,
[00:38:33] Guest 1: I could say the same right back to you, Matt. So likewise, I'm glad the kinship is there and we were able to connect [00:38:40] today. Pretty good. We'll talk real soon. All right, man, take care.[00:38:50]
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What I look like when I'm speaking those words,[00:00:30] [00:00:40]
[00:00:41] Matt: strengths. Drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, a show where we discuss complex [00:00:50] issues related to work. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at Vento, hr.com, wherever you find your favorite podcasts [00:01:00] by searching, thinking inside the box.
And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time in Altspace VR. [00:01:10] In today's episode, I chat with Josh Liddell, founder and CEO of volley, a Utah based video messaging app for teams and professionals alike. [00:01:20] Josh has an interesting guy, a former school teacher, and now a serial entrepreneur.
Who's launched four tech companies since 2006. And like a lot of us Josh [00:01:30] saw the opportunity presented by the global pandemic and the inevitable shift of how we do work. So together we cover a range of topics, [00:01:40] particularly relevant. We talked about organizations in the post pandemic context and their shift to digital or hybrid interfaces.
We discussed remote team [00:01:50] communication and the importance of using video and voice to compliment text-based or email-based communications that drive true. [00:02:00] And we got real about the changing nature of social interactions within organizations. The fact is things have materially move from where they once [00:02:10] were.
And the days of meeting around the proverbial water cooler are, if nothing else reduced, they may go away altogether [00:02:20] and apps like volley. Give us an alternative that is compelling, engaging, and ultimately. Accelerates knowledge [00:02:30] transfer and communication, which ultimately is where all of us as leadership moving towards, we had a great conversation and I hope you enjoy it.
So without further ado, Joshlyn. [00:02:40] I don't like that zoom entry, Josh, but I know it's the world we live in nowadays and we are now recording. What is going to be, I know a great conversation, Josh,
[00:02:49] Guest 1: [00:02:50] so good. How are you met?
[00:02:51] Matt: I'm doing really well. Um, I'm excited to talk about all things volley, but before we get into that, maybe for those who don't know, Josh little, [00:03:00] walk us up to where we are today.
And what's your background, your experiences. What brought you to, to today's current?
[00:03:04] Guest 1: Oh, sure. Well, I'm a teacher by training. I got a degree in secondary education and taught in [00:03:10] public school for a year and realized that was not my thing. Um, and then tried to figure out what can someone with these skills do and figured out that sales is actually [00:03:20] something.
If you can motivate 11th graders, not to burn down the school, you can motivate someone to buy a thing. So I, I did well in sales, uh, kind of skipped around three fortune [00:03:30] 500 companies. Um, successful salesperson that came in had. Did sales training at a couple of those. And that was really the [00:03:40] springboard that launched me into starting my first company Maestro.
I was trying to solve a problem, scratch my own itch. I was trying to build e-learning back before there were all of the great tools that exist today, [00:03:50] and it was just really hard. And I thought there should be a company that did that, and I left to start my own company and. Pretty much every other training manager in medical and pharma, [00:04:00] which is the space we were in at the time.
Agreed. And, you know, today Maestro builds content for Facebook and Netflix and all kinds of cool companies. Um, but my [00:04:10] store was my first of four tech companies collectively, you know, uh, A couple of hundred million users across the four raised venture money. [00:04:20] I've bootstrapped, I've had two exits, a third, one anticipated, and I took a few years off before trying to figure out what it was.
I really wanted [00:04:30] to build. Um, you know, I'm not getting any younger and, um, you know, I wanted to give something big to the world. So, uh, it took about four years to [00:04:40] find the, the concept that is volley. And that was kind of the nexus of having thought about the problem, how to get the right information to the right people at the right time at work very much with [00:04:50] Bloomfire my love of asynchronous communication on tools like Snapchat or Marco polo, and then the pandemic hits.
And it's like, ah, I know what the world needs [00:05:00] a better way to commute. When they're remote. And, um, that's when we started building volley
[00:05:04] Matt: and the world. Thanks you for it. Because before that, the available infrastructure in the market was [00:05:10] needlessly saying woefully
[00:05:11] Guest 1: inappropriate. No doubt. Yeah. Well, you, you, you really only have two options to communicate with your coworkers.
You can either type, or you can talk. And [00:05:20] today we have digital versions of those options, but they're, they're really not evolved. The technology hasn't taken us to a new place other than let us do [00:05:30] that, uh, at home versus at work right. Or in an office. Um, so that's very much what we're. Trying to dig into a valise to create a new creature [00:05:40] that gives you the best of both worlds.
So if you don't know what a volley is, it's a video messaging app that allows you to share easy video messages back and forth with your team. It's the best of [00:05:50] talking with the flexibility of typing or asynchronous? Um, this is kind of the best of both worlds there. And by breaking up the turns [00:06:00] in a conversation.
A lot of magic happens. So in volley we take turns just like this conversation, Matt, like we've taken a few turns so far, except you record your turn [00:06:10] with video. And that's the big idea, which
[00:06:13] Matt: makes sense, because it's been Josh with this HR leaders business leaders can, the days [00:06:20] just from the pandemic really was becoming, taking shape.
And this is probably. March or April of 2020. And one of the big concerns was, okay, [00:06:30] this is gonna be a giant lift of course, to get thousands of employees in some cases, from a physical office into working, you know, in the home in a [00:06:40] different location, et cetera. But after that, after that, that gargantuan, you know, hardware lift, if you will, there was this question about how do we keep [00:06:50] momentum?
How do we keep culture? How do we keep connection and collaboration when we've leaned so heavily on that? On the informal, the, you know, the, the water [00:07:00] cooler chat, the meeting before and after the meeting, bumping into somebody in the hallway on the way to get a coffee, um, you know, those various elements don't exist in a [00:07:10] linear, um, digital communication, medium, you know, that a zoom that is email, that is text messages.
So I'm just, you know, I heard these problems over and over [00:07:20] and over again, and I'm guessing Josh, you did as well. And I'm, I'm curious how you, you know, why. Vali in particular bridges, the gap between those two things. [00:07:30] Yeah,
[00:07:30] Guest 1: I think, I think this is a huge insight. Simon Sinek actually just launched a video a couple of months ago that he basically saying we're we're, we're, [00:07:40] we're living on borrowed time here because we're, we're really taking advantage of.
The existing relationships that we already had, that we once built, like [00:07:50] anyone that's new is just getting plugged into those things. And we're taking advantage of that. We don't realize how important it was, those conversations. Like you mentioned, the water [00:08:00] cooler, the ad hoc conversations, the, the meeting up in the parking lot after work or seeing each other at lunch, we didn't realize how big those were until they were taken away.
And I still [00:08:10] don't think. We completely realize it because we're kind of holding our breath because of the afterglow of what we once had. Right. And so volley is focused on [00:08:20] helping make conversation flow more easily being face-to-face without being calendar calendar. So when we went, when we all went through.[00:08:30]
The need for talking, didn't go away. We still need to talk to move work forward. Um, there's only so much you can write in a slack message. There's only so much you want to write in an email [00:08:40] and then context and, and a humanity of is out the window with each of those. So you, you still need to talk to move work forward.
And what does that look like in a remote world? Well, [00:08:50] that looks like back to. Zoom's all day and this is where zoom fatigue sets in. And it's, it's kind of like, you have to pick your poison. Uh, you, [00:09:00] you can talk, uh, which is great, but it's time-bound we have to stop what we're doing. We have to get in the same place.
We have to deal with technical difficulties. So on and so forth, we all know that the [00:09:10] downsides of synchronicity, not to mention it interrupts deep work and flow and all of those things, but then the opposite is typing. And when we choose [00:09:20] to type like, and when I say type, I mean like a slack message or an email, we're doing something that we're seven times slower at naturally.
Like we are all. [00:09:30] Athletes at this thing called communication. We totally take it for granted. Even the least of us is an elite athlete at this thing that is just so dynamic and [00:09:40] rich. And for that reason, whenever we're we're in an asynchronous format, that really means typing and typing is limited in richness.
Therefore there is [00:09:50] some threshold, some sense we all have where it's like, ah, we just need to get together. We just need to get live. So with volley, we just create a way to allow you to do that. That is [00:10:00] outside of time or place you record a video message. You say what you need to say, you move on with your day.
Your coworkers can respond on their time with a video message. And these are threaded [00:10:10] and in a timeline. So it's not sharing a piece of content. It's using video as a vehicle for communication. And there's just a lot of power in the [00:10:20] asynchronous nature of this. Um, because even 10 seconds can make all of the world of difference.
If I'm writing the last line of the manifesto or [00:10:30] this last piece of code, if you tapped me on the shoulder in a virtual or a, um, uh, an office environment, you may have. Interrupted this last [00:10:40] perfect moment that I, I needed, but with a synchronous, um, we don't have that problem. You can, you can pick it up and educational research shows, even when you [00:10:50] give someone three seconds to think about the response before they have to give it, we w the, the response is fundamentally better, uh, than what is [00:11:00] currently expected in a.
In a synchronous conversation, which is 200 milliseconds. If, if you wait more than 200 milliseconds to ask your question after I stopped talking, but you don't know [00:11:10] when I'm going to stop talking, that's considered an awkwardly logging pause, and that's existence across all cultures in all languages. So lots of cool things we can [00:11:20] do with a single.
Video communication being kind of the best of both worlds. Well, fortunately
[00:11:25] Matt: for both of us, I talk really fast, Josh, so it won't be any gaps [00:11:30] of longer than the time you've listed. Um, but I think what, you're, what you're describing really, to me, it speaks to a core of. A challenge that we're facing, which is you've [00:11:40] listed that you talked about the, if you will, the learning science, the educational science, and there's an element here of communication.
If you strip away all of the, you know, the pageantry [00:11:50] around it, communication is conveying an idea from one person or from many to one person or two, many we're transferring knowledge, transferring [00:12:00] information, transferring awareness, back and forth, and. Necessary in, in any, um, organization and the tools that we talk about, whether they be social [00:12:10] media or email or telephone or video conferencing, whatever it looks like.
They're all just mechanisms to achieve the same outcome, which is we're trying to communicate and give any information back and forth. And [00:12:20] there's a science behind that that says. If we want to have information, be, be best received, be most retained. If there's a [00:12:30] key message in that information, if you want someone to retain information from that, there's a series of steps you should go through.
There's a series of sequences, some emotional triggers you [00:12:40] appreciate probably poke at like there's, there's a science behind influence and persuasion. And you know, I'm thinking of my friend, you know, prince Doman the neuro marketer who talks about the blend between marketing and neuroscience. So there's [00:12:50] absolutely messaging around.
That the only other hand jobs, you also mentioned there's social norms and there are social psychology, which in some cases actually is [00:13:00] in conflict with the learning science insofar as some of the things that you mentioned, we know that if you give people opportunity to reflect upon ideas, they generally come to.
With a more rich and [00:13:10] wholesome answer, but socially we are uncomfortable with long posits. That's one very small minute example of, of a larger issue. And I'm curious, you know, how, when you [00:13:20] think about volley, have you considered those two elements in tandem? And if so, how have you thought through how to solve for some of those challenges?
[00:13:27] Guest 1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you, you, you [00:13:30] mentioned retention retention of visual information is, is like no contest between visual and written information. And, and, and I think [00:13:40] what we're really aiming at here is does it matter what you sound like? And when you look, is it really just the words that you speak that matter?
Or is it how [00:13:50] you speak them? That really matters. And we all know the classic example there is. We need to talk. You know, if, if you were to write that in a text message, there's a lot of ways you could take [00:14:00] that. Some really good, some really terrible and everything in between. But when you couple that with tone of voice and body language, it's really hard [00:14:10] to mistake that message and the message that you're trying to get across.
Um, and you know, social sciences. The only 7% of the [00:14:20] total message is actually the words that we speak at 38% is tone of voice. And 55% is body language. What I look like when I'm speaking [00:14:30] those words. So that's, that's very much, um, part of what we're trying to solve for is yeah. Maybe you don't need to know context.
Hey [00:14:40] lunches here. That message like that's, that's a pretty thin message. Yeah. That could totally be a text for that reason. Just write a text mail. You can write text volleys or record your voice on a bad hair day [00:14:50] or share your screen or share files and docs and all of those things, of course, but what's crazy is 75% of volley sent our video volleys and people [00:15:00] come to volley for that feature.
And that's why people stay in retain is because of the value of that. And the cost of it is. Is no more than the cost of writing a [00:15:10] slack message. And in fact, I would argue it's even less because you can speak seven times faster. So you can, you can convey a lot more. You can get the essence of your idea.
You can show someone with your camera, [00:15:20] exactly what you're talking about. And if you were trying to put all of that into a text thread, like that's a lot of thinking. That's a lot of editing. That's a lot of [00:15:30] that's 10 minutes versus. You know, one minute and Bali. Well,
[00:15:34] Matt: and that's, that's the key piece here is we're talking about to your point, playing to our strengths as [00:15:40] human beings, our gifts of communication, our ability to convey complex topics and subjects and sequences and do so in an intelligent way.
That's, that's a gift [00:15:50] we have, and it's, it's easier to do that. Generally speaking by way of conversation. That's a video fantastic than it is to convey with writing and other methods as well. So it's, I'm not [00:16:00] surprised to hear. You've had some success. I mean, Josh, what are some of the challenges that companies are coming to you trying to solve for?
I mean, we've talked about remote work. We've talked about [00:16:10] the ability for people to convey messages back and forth. What are some of the, if you will use cases or some of the problems that are popping up as you talk to organizations around.
[00:16:17] Guest 1: Well, th the two top ones would, [00:16:20] would totally line up with a buffer state of remote work study cited last year, the top two problems with remote work being lack of communication and [00:16:30] loneliness or lack of connection.
And those are kind of the top two that, that we're solving for. And that's why they're looking around for something else. We'll hear things like. [00:16:40] You know, I just started a few weeks ago. I'm already finding it hard to like communicate or catch up with my boss on slack. And so we thought this could be a good solution or, [00:16:50] or from like, uh, folks who identify as introvert.
They, they, like, I have an engineer, who's a user who says, you know what, my friends on Snapchat [00:17:00] or, uh, what's. They think I'm funny. They think I'm courageous. They have this total different point of view of who I am, then the people at work it's [00:17:10] in it's because I sit in these synchronous meetings and I just don't know what to say.
I trip over my words. I'm not good thinking on the fly. I'm not good at like putting those ideas into words. I [00:17:20] need a minute to process these things. So, you know, these, these are some of the things that allow the not only the, the communication. Playing field [00:17:30] to be flattened. Uh, but it also to be increased in quality and, and, you know, the, the, the fidelity or the humanity of those messages to be [00:17:40] received in a way that is just impossible with, with a text.
So we've, um, we've been kind of diving at the heart of those problems with the [00:17:50] product, trying to figure out how to. Make connection happen a lot more easily with, within a workspace. And one of the ways that you connect with others is through human.[00:18:00]
[00:18:01] Matt: Hey everyone. It's Matt here, and I hope you're enjoying today's discussion before we continue. I want to make you aware of our latest creative [00:18:10] project, HR in VR, every Thursday at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time. All connect with technology pioneers, business executives from [00:18:20] the world's most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual retail.
And their impact on future workplace. [00:18:30] In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience in Altspace. [00:18:40] Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time for the [00:18:50] LinkedIn lives.
Or for a truly immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download Altspace on your Mac, [00:19:00] PC or VR headset, and join us live in our studio audience. There you'll have a chance to ask questions, meet me and our incredible [00:19:10] guests and connect with others from the comfort of your own home. This is the future folks.
And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the details for [00:19:20] HR and VR, along with all other relevant information in the show notes of this podcast. And now back to our discussion.[00:19:30]
[00:19:31] Guest 1: And I, you know, when you think about. Slack a joke because that's, that's not [00:19:40] gonna, that's not going to get what I want to cross and I'm not going to schedule a meeting to tell the joke. So what do I do? Well, I guess I'm just not going to tell the joke, um, or I'm going to use a gift that will [00:19:50] sort of get me there or use an emoji reaction that will sort of get me there.
Right. So there's all of those little things in between, um, that, Hey, I noticed how are you? That's [00:20:00] probably that probably shouldn't be a slack message that sort of reach out and people are going to freak out if you schedule a meeting to do one of those, maybe, but [00:20:10] just all of these little ad hoc interactions and touchpoints that can happen throughout the day, that can both increase connection as well as improve communication and in the [00:20:20] wake, because.
You know, a team using volley is constantly in the flow of work. We're constantly sinking up unblocking checking in throughout the day. For that reason, [00:20:30] we don't really have one-on-ones at volley. We really need them because we've already talked about everything that's important. And we've talked about it in high fidelity, and we've talked about it multiple [00:20:40] times a day and we rehashed it and the need, the traditional need for one-on-one isn't there.
Therefore, a lot of the things that we, that you would traditionally do synchronously in [00:20:50] a company like brainstorming or one-on-ones or stand up meetings or those sorts of things, those can actually be a single. As well, because now you have a way to do them. That [00:21:00] has the richness that you need without the synchronicity, that the putting something on a calendar sort of thing.
There's still a lot of good reasons to meet synchronously. And I [00:21:10] don't want to be misunderstood in that way. Like accountability conversations. Those should be. Those should happen singer you should not terminate someone on slack, anything that's [00:21:20] time-bound or requires a tight feedback loop. And you need a lot of iteration of different ideas.
Those things are going to be terrible asynchronous, but for everything else [00:21:30] there's volley. And we can make that. And it mirrors
[00:21:33] Matt: a lot of the thinking we've been doing at Bentall HR and Josh. We had this discussion a little bit offline before we hit the record button. I think both of our [00:21:40] organizations have found ourselves in unique positions of having to dip into our backgrounds and our histories of things you've worked on in the past, but also overlay [00:21:50] them with a modern day lens because problems today are a little bit different than they once were.
And, you know, Vali is solving a problem that had predated. Dar [00:22:00] pandemic. And there have been issues in communication and organizations for as long as I've been in the corporate world and certainly love for more of that. And there has been challenges, um, you know, in [00:22:10] organizational culture long before COVID-19 and certainly, you know, endure after.
And you have a solution that has come to the market that solves some of those challenges. And [00:22:20] at the same time, what strikes me. The, the shift of work in general, moving from more traditional [00:22:30] hierarchical top-down type, you know, waterfall, if you will, project management styles of leadership is there's this slow moving iceberg, um, [00:22:40] to agile, where organizations are learning to operate to your point more asynchronously.
To be much more focused in, on things like scrum meetings and [00:22:50] daily huddles and more, you know, fast, agile, quick communications versus the traditional here's the, you know, the weekly report that comes down, that somebody spends a full day building. Like [00:23:00] it's, it's, it's much more real time, quick and dirty.
Maybe not as fancy and as produced, but certainly high, high, high accuracy. I'm curious, like [00:23:10] for, I think about, you know, I think Josh, we're probably about the same age, but I remember my first few years in the corporate world, we didn't have blackberries. Like we had to like [00:23:20] work was done, work was done.
And we went home and like what a wonderful world that was living. I'm not going to lie. Uh, then all of a sudden someone gave you a Blackberry and said, Hey, you can do your. [00:23:30] Anywhere you want in the world. And you're like, oh my God, this is so amazing. I can't believe it until like the third day. And you're like, oh God, I have a lack of electric leash.
Now I'm always available. And always reachable. [00:23:40] And like communication has evolved along with that to now where work in life have kind of blended, they're integrated in some ways you're answering work emails on the weekend. You're, you know, at two o'clock on the, on a [00:23:50] Friday, you're going for a dentist appointment.
Like it's, everything's kinda kind of became blended. And along with that styles and comfort levels around types of communications have also shifted. [00:24:00] And I know when speaking with people in my past, you know, organizations that even just the idea of sending text messages, not too long ago, was seen as intrusive.
And I'm curious, [00:24:10] are you guys butting up against any social norms around sending videos, um, around that being, um, you know, seen as maybe not the most ideal method, [00:24:20] I understand the science behind it. I'm a hundred percent bought into the value of, of sending messages. How does you, how do you advise clients that may butt up against the.
Discomfort, if you [00:24:30] will, of sending videos and thinking about the company's Josh, that like they have a culture of not turning on their zoom videos when they're having team meetings, like places like that, where maybe they're a bit more introverted, a bit more [00:24:40] shy or video, maybe as a part of the normal culture.
How do you butt up against that? Knowing that it's ultimately a more effective method of communication? Wow.
[00:24:47] Guest 1: What a great question. And I think you [00:24:50] and I are both doing similar work right now. The world is trying to figure out. What work looks like, and we have some opportunities that were thrust upon [00:25:00] us and, and we're doing the best we can to scramble, make work, still move forward.
And, and yet we're still talking about this thing called the future of work. And what does that even look [00:25:10] like? And what could that be? And I think we all kind of collectively. Want work to be more flexible. We want it to be more bound. We expect the future of [00:25:20] work. It's not going to be more rigid. It's not going back in the box, right?
The future of work somehow. Um, well, oh wait. The, the, the name of this is thinking outside the box. So, [00:25:30] um, you know, the, the future of work is, is only going to be more flexible, more dynamic. Right? I think we all agree with that. And I can't imagine that future of work in [00:25:40] that future of work, that we're less comforted.
With video, we're less comfortable with our authentic selves and where we happen to be where we're, while we're moving work [00:25:50] forward, whether it's walking the dog or dropping off the kids or at home or in a coffee shop or in an office, the future of work is flexible. We're, we're, we're at different modalities [00:26:00] throughout the day.
And therefore in each of those modalities, you need a different way to communicate a different communication to you. Slack while walking the dog, you can't zoom in a coffee [00:26:10] shop or you shouldn't. Um, and so the, the, the communication tool for that future of work needs to be a shaped or shapeshifter, it needs to be video when you need it to be [00:26:20] video, it needs to be texting.
You need it to be, and that's all very much what we're, we're trying to do at volley. However, to your question, Yes, about 5% and that's a totally made up [00:26:30] stat, but it's just anecdotally about 5% of our users have had an issue with volley. At first, they don't quite get it. They don't feel comfortable with video.[00:26:40]
They feel. Talking to themselves, they feel like they're just recording a video of themselves and it just feels awkward. And, uh, yeah. So, [00:26:50] so as, especially for, you know, a different generation, like 20 year olds, they've been, they grew up with Snapchat. They like, this is a natural way to communicate. Of course, you're going to send a video [00:27:00] message to your friend.
Of course, you're not going to call your friend. Of course, you're not going to schedule a meeting with your friend. All right. Here's going to snap them. Um, and, uh, you know, [00:27:10] so volley for them feels very natural, but for someone yeah, our age, um, maybe it's, it does feel unnatural at first. However, we found it takes about two [00:27:20] weeks, um, for, for the aha moment to set in.
And that's not a magic number by any means, but it takes a couple of weeks to realize the power of doing [00:27:30] that and that. Vali, isn't a buttoned up communication format and it's okay that you're walking through your kitchen while you're volleying, uh, while you're [00:27:40] making lunch. And that's, that's cool because that's work that you would have had to do when you're going back to sit down at your desk after and why wouldn't you get that work done and off the plate so that you can have some [00:27:50] time for deep work or focus afterward.
It's totally cool that you're walking the dog. Can move work forward while walking the dog, or when you're waiting in line [00:28:00] to pick up your kid from school or, or something like that. So it takes a few volleys and interactions to realize that we're not only communicating [00:28:10] better and we're communicating.
Flexibly. Um, and that's worth the trade-off of feeling awkward Neff actually, after a couple of weeks, that just [00:28:20] kind of goes away and I tell them, you know, don't, don't worry about what you look like. Don't look at yourself, look at the camera. Um, and don't stare at the camera because you wouldn't do that in a [00:28:30] face-to-face conversation.
No one really has like. I's riveted on each other eyeball to eyeball contact. That's weird. So, you know, you gaze off in the [00:28:40] distance. You're going to think, look, look off camera, you know, come back to camera. It starts to become natural. Um, but it, it does, there is a learning curve and it's, it's funny, [00:28:50] you mentioned it.
That's, that's what we see here from some users, but I don't know. If I've heard from user that wasn't able to get past that, well, maybe I just wouldn't hear from user that [00:29:00] wasn't able to get past that they just stopped using it.
[00:29:02] Matt: I don't think, I think, you know what I've taken away Josh in the last year.
I mean, I'll be honest. When I was in the corporate world, I was so deeply [00:29:10] embedded in looking internally that I wasn't spending a lot of time looking outside of the four walls of the organization. A lot of corporate employees can identify with that sentiment. You're just so focused on moving the rock forward in the [00:29:20] context in which you're operating.
And the, one of the benefits of becoming an entrepreneur is that I can allow my mind to float the things that I wouldn't otherwise allow that to because sometimes allowing [00:29:30] my mind to float means that we unearth new insights or new potentials or new, um, opportunities that we wouldn't have otherwise found.
If we just focused in, on doing the same tired [00:29:40] things over and over again. And. And one thing, that's kind of a come to me over the last little while I had this for those who follow my content for a while. You know, I had this article about probably two [00:29:50] years ago. Now Josh was talking about, we need to mercifully merge marketing and HR because in my opinion, that the same skill sets the same purposes, but one's directed externally.
One's directed [00:30:00] internally, but we treat them. Treat them because one's that revenue generating functions and ones of cost center. And the reality is they both can be viewed in both lenses if you're thoughtful about it. So, but, [00:30:10] but the premise of that argument was largely communication based. My premise was, Hey, marketing and HR folks need to segment audiences.
I need to craft and [00:30:20] curate specific messages to those audiences and find a way for that those messages to resonate in such a manner that would convey an action, a decision, uh, you know, w a memory, something would have some [00:30:30] sort of output call it, impressions, call it engagement, call what you want. But there's a level of, um, you know, we're trying to communicate with human beings and, and get some residents.
And. Yeah. I [00:30:40] thought that the time that HR professionals would benefit a lot from leaning on their marketing colleagues to do things like implement brand name more effectively, or to more effectively address [00:30:50] internal communications. And one of the, the, the analogies that I use a lot. If I was in a marketing consultant and I came to your office and said, Hey, I had the perfect strategy for [00:31:00] volume.
Here's my plan. I'm going to go down to your local like copy center. I'm going to print off a thousand posters and then I'm going to print them up and staple them all over the telephone poles in your neighborhood. [00:31:10] You're guaranteed to get sick. Well, you would just say, Hey, that's a terrible idea. Thank you for leaving my office.
And by the way, I hope you're going to recycle those papers on the way back. Um, [00:31:20] but the, how many organizations stop the communications at a company-wide email and some posters up in the hallway on some cork boards. So the same premise you wouldn't offer that same [00:31:30] treatment to an external customer. You shouldn't offer it internally.
I share that long ramp because as over the course of last year, thinking about that, but also thinking about the future, it became [00:31:40] clear that we weren't taking a nuanced enough look at communication that we weren't really thoughtful about pairing the type of message with the [00:31:50] type of tool to convey the message and how we arrived at that.
Josh, which you alluded to earlier was we found ourselves into virtual world. Where we said, Hey, virtual reality, [00:32:00] doesn't solve all the world's problems. It's not the same as being in the same room. I would way rather be in the same room as my co-founder, but he's in Seattle. I'm in Vancouver until the border reopens.
That's not going to happen, [00:32:10] but anytime we want to, we can pop on virtual reality headsets and we can have through spatial awareness, a feeling of co-location and intimacy and convey messaging and have a [00:32:20] shared experience in a way. We would not be able to have an, any other contacts unless we were in the same room.
And there's significant value for that level of progression towards [00:32:30] more intimate and more immersive type environments for communication, for learning, for hiring for, for coaching. But it's not going to replace. [00:32:40] Being front row at your favorite artists concert, when they start their tour, it's not going to be the same as standing on the 50 yard line and watching your favorite football team win the super bowl.
It's [00:32:50] just not the same as being in person, but it closes, it solves for a problem. And the more that you speak about volley, the more I'm thinking. This solves for a very specific type of problem [00:33:00] that many of us just work around to your point. I probably send way more voice texts now to my team that did before the pandemic, but even voice tech can sometimes leave me lacking [00:33:10] in terms of the ability to convey emotion behind what I'm saying, for example, or things of that nature.
So, you know, I'm curious as you guys. Think about [00:33:20] these types of challenges going forward. Are there any other problems that you're thinking about trying to solve for where you think volley would be a really, really good fit?
[00:33:29] Guest 1: [00:33:30] Uh, we can go here. It may be overused or a concept that's beaten down too much, but culture is, is one that we hear a lot from [00:33:40] our users actually.
And it's, it's interesting because what, what is culture, um, Uh, I believe communication is culture. [00:33:50] W what did it use to me when we had offices? Well, was it, was it the values that were on the wall? Is that our culture? And when we don't have walls anymore, was it, [00:34:00] uh, the way our lobby looked? Was it, the soda machine that we had that was, that made our culture, and these were some things that people pointed to, but [00:34:10] if you think about it, take communication away.
What's your culture. We have no culture. There's, there's nothing there. Right? So some form of [00:34:20] communication is your culture in the way you communicate the way that you show up and help, and that the traditions and the expectations around that and the quality and the [00:34:30] fidelity, all of it equals culture, which equals trust, which equals relationships.
So I don't know, it seems maybe a little too in the [00:34:40] clouds to, to think about. You know, something like volley or VR to your point, like all of these things are right. Tool for the right job to, uh, you know, [00:34:50] as you're saying. Um, but we can now with. Constraints of the office taken away. Um, and that we're in, in this virtual environment, we [00:35:00] can now redefine what is culture and what matters to us.
And what we're finding is for it's mostly smaller teams, honestly, that are using volume right now. It's, [00:35:10] it's people, it's a team trying to do big things where stakes are high communication matters, every interaction counts. So they're looking for a way [00:35:20] to do that better. Um, and they're picking up volume instead of tools.
Slack or an Lune and using that totally instead of those, and also [00:35:30] replacing some of their zooms because they prefer that video first approach to communication because it helps them do what they're doing. Um, and, and, and make every [00:35:40] interaction count, at least as much as it possibly can in a, in a virtual world.
Right. So yeah, all of that, just say, you know, I think culture is, is maybe something we're [00:35:50] making a little bit of a dent in, and at least our corner of the world.
[00:35:53] Matt: Oh, I totally agree with you and having run engagement programs and organizations for the better part of 15 years. I can tell you that [00:36:00] there's absolutely a degree of art and science.
And if I strip away the art and put the science on the table for a second, a good engagement strategy is predicated on a couple of key principles. [00:36:10] One, you need to go and talk to your employees and ask them the right questions to need to collect that information. Three, you need to decide what you're going to do with that information, if [00:36:20] anything, and then four, you need to be able to communicate back to your employees, what you've done with the information, if anything, and thank them for their feedback.
And you repeat that over and over and over and over again. And [00:36:30] all of those steps involve communication. So culture is communication. Communication is culture they're interchangeable. And I agree with you. I think as you got. Address and solve [00:36:40] for communication challenges. You're going to surface cultural challenges that come up as a result.
Um, whether that's the manager that doesn't share information within their team, because they're afraid of the fact that their team [00:36:50] might know more than them and that they feel insecure about that. Whether it's, um, you know, confidentiality concerns raised from one department to another where they. Cross functionally [00:37:00] collaborate, even though the both parties would benefit from the information, like all those weird, odd things that pop up in corporate cultures, we call them politics.
Those things start to become those walls. Start to come [00:37:10] down. When we find a more seamless, integrated, thoughtful method of communications. And I'm really excited, Josh, he took a chance to connect today. Um, as you go forward, what's next on [00:37:20] your plate. What's the next 12 months look like for Josh?
[00:37:23] Guest 1: Oh, it's just working with our users, learning from them and just trying to build the ultimate product to help, you know, [00:37:30] teams improve communication, increased connection, and reduce meetings.
We're pretty maniacally focused on, on that goal. And so we've got a lot of fun features that [00:37:40] we're playing. We're working on like a pretty amazing transcription tool set right now. So that, because what we've heard is, well, videos are. Very rich and [00:37:50] communicate, you know, a ton and are very valuable.
They're also hard to parse and they feel intimidating. Um, and when you get behind in volley, it feels like a job to catch up. [00:38:00] So we're just solving for those things. That's, that's kind of the short term, but, um, yeah, it's really just, um, focusing on users and finding that user led group. Josh.
[00:38:09] Matt: [00:38:10] Thank you so much for taking the time today to connect.
I was eager to chat with you for a few reasons, and I'm glad we had a chance to do that. It's just, this is a topic that is going to increasingly become on everyone's agenda. [00:38:20] As leaders, as individual contributors, as organizations, we need to find better ways to communicate, to connect, to collaborate. And I'm glad [00:38:30] that individuals like yourself are trying to think through better ways for us.
Well,
[00:38:33] Guest 1: I could say the same right back to you, Matt. So likewise, I'm glad the kinship is there and we were able to connect [00:38:40] today. Pretty good. We'll talk real soon. All right, man, take care.[00:38:50]
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