speaker-0: Welcome to The Table, a podcast where leaders pull up a chair and tell the real story. How they got there and how they stayed there. I'm your host, Jeanette Hernandez. So pull up a seat because this is The Table. Paul, thank you so much for joining us at the table today. I'm really excited to have you here. ⁓ We're not going to chat too much about your retirement because I'm a little jealous of it, but ⁓ I definitely think you have some great knowledge from your career that our listeners are going to be super excited to hear about. So thank you again for taking time.
speaker-1: know, Jeanette, it's really an honor to have the opportunity to spend the next few minutes with you. I'm really looking forward to the conversation.
speaker-0: Great. ⁓ So can you just share for those that may not know you, you have a distinguished long career in the PNC industry, but how did you get to the table that you're at today?
speaker-1: So I appreciate the question, Jeanette. So I'll start by saying that my journey into the insurance industry wasn't planned. But in many ways, I would say it was very intentional. When I was a senior at Morehouse College in Atlanta, I was weighing two very different paths. One was becoming an educator and teaching school in Des Moines, Iowa. And the other was going to law school. And so like many 19-year-olds, I genuinely wanted to, at that time, do something that would allow me to change the world and make a difference for others. And both of these ⁓ paths, I thought, provided me with a meaningful way to kind of achieve that. Ultimately, I chose law school. But after completing my first year, I came to a really hard realization. And that was, I couldn't figure out how to successfully be a full-time husband, a full-time father, a full-time employee, and a full-time student. So something had to give, and the thing that I let go of was law school. So I ended up returning home, and I found myself asking some very important questions. I was looking for work that would allow me to serve others, to solve problems, to continue learning ⁓ and growing, and ideally something that I could commit to for the long term. And around that time, ⁓ a really dear friend of mine introduced me to the ideal of insurance, not as a job, but as a profession where you can make a real impact in people's lives. That introduction... led to an interview and a job offer with Progressive Insurance Company. And that decision changed the trajectory of my life from being very transparent. And so over the past 37 years or so, I've had the privilege of leading a wide range of teams across multiple insurance organizations. I've served in roles, including Vice President and President of Claims. I've served as Chief Operating Officer. I've served as AVP, I've served as president and CEO of my own third party administrator, and ultimately as chief claims officer here at A.F. Along the way, I would say that what kept me engaged wasn't just the work itself, it was truly the people. And I know we talk a lot about people, and you'll find that people... has always been very central to my foundational leadership. I've had the opportunity to mentor so many people in our industry and even outside of our industry. I've had the opportunity to help individuals recognize their potential, to optimize outcomes for the organizations that I've served, and to collaborate with extraordinary leaders and individual contributors. that I've led, some who've led me and many who walked alongside me. So when I look back, ⁓ I would say that, you know, insurance became kind of that perfect intersection of everything I was looking for early on. Service, problem solving, ⁓ continuous learning, and the chance to make a meaningful difference, not just once, but over an entire career. So it may not have been the path I imagined at the age of 19, but it turned out to be exactly the path I needed to travel.
speaker-0: You have so many things in there for me to unpack that I'm going to start with the first one because I had a similar ⁓ experience. graduated from college. My first job was State Farm in the newspaper, right? Best paying job. was like, but I had to support myself going to law school. And after the first year, I had a very similar conversation with myself. Do I want to practice law or am I doing this because this is what I think will get me to my ultimate? position that I'm aspiring to be at. And it wasn't the path I was supposed to be on. So it's funny because we talk a lot on the podcast about did you get to where you are very intentionally or were you able to pivot when different opportunities came your way, which may not have been the path that you were on when you began. And so I think that is an amazing thing that you can share with the listeners that at such a young age. because we have to do this throughout our whole career. Are we at the right table? It isn't always aspiring to a position. Sometimes we're at a table where we don't fit. And that can be either in your position or in your own career path that you're designing for yourself. I think that's, thank you for sharing that, because there's a lot of young leaders in our industry that probably have a written roadmap and rarely does that ever come to fruition, right? There's always something, whether family. or you just change as a human being throughout your career and you have to look for other opportunities. ahead.
speaker-1: No, I was going to say, know, Jeanette, I mean, your points are so, you know, so well made. And one of the things that, you know, that I try to, ⁓ you know, encourage those whom I, you know, have, you know, mentoring relationships with and something that, you know, other thought leaders and I talk about when we, know, kind of examine our careers. And it's the importance of having the courage to change and pivot. And you kind of notice that. You know, I think it's important to have an idea about what you want to do and to have, you know, a plan of action for ⁓ achieving, you know, that end goal. But it's kind of like, you know, as you can see in the background here, ⁓ I have a chess set. I'm actually a nationally ranked chess player and I love, you know, the game of chess and in part because chess is, I think, two parts. It's about strategy and it's also... about psychology. And I think, know, what, you know, some of the valuable lessons I've learned from the game of chess is like understanding that, yes, you want to have a focus on what ultimately you want to accomplish, but to understand that life has a way, you know, of throwing, you know, things in your pathway that causes you or creates the need for you to have to pivot. And sometimes that takes courage. So I really appreciate what you just said about the importance of pivoting and changing that direction and sometimes changing that end goal as well.
speaker-0: And the other thing that you mentioned that I think is really critical is we are struggling attracting talent and it's not a job. I remember when I came in, I came in as an auto adjuster, right? Back in the day when you did field investigations, you owned it all. But this is truly a noble profession for whatever, you know, the public views us because we get lumped in with life insurance and health insurance, but really everything we do. we're there for our insureds at the time of need. And the more you're in the career, that sense of service that you're talking about, if that's in your DNA, insurance is the opportunity to do that. you can have the most intellectually stimulating job ⁓ somewhere in an organization, but it's that service that kept me almost, I've been at it 36 years now, because I felt like I was doing something good in the world. And there's not a whole lot of jobs that you can feel that way. So another amazing point for maybe some of our... our younger leaders that might be listening. ⁓ We were chatting a little bit before we got started and I was saying, I've seen the industry change more in the last five years than I have in the last 20. So are there anything, any things that you can say throughout your, let's just say leadership versus career, because I'm sure that's evolved over the years, maybe two or three things that. you have used consistently to build great teams and be a servant leader, which you clearly are, that you might want to impart on some of our people listening.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a really great question. know, Jeanette, I would say that there are probably three ⁓ leadership practices that I've relied on pretty consistently throughout my career, regardless of my role or the organization that I was a part of. First, ⁓ I've always strived to create a sense of clarity for my team members. And that translates into making sure that I'm providing clear expectations, clear priorities, and a clear definition of what success looks like. I think that we can probably all agree that lack of clarity or too much ambiguity can be exhausting for teams. And in this regard, I've also come to learn that high-performing teams don't necessarily struggle because the teams lack talent. they oftentimes struggle because expectations are unclear. And so I spent a lot of time, you know, making sure that people understand why the work matters and helping them to understand what success actually looks like and how their role connects to the broader mission. Because when clarity is missing, people fill the gaps themselves and that can lead to frustration and obviously misalignment. I invest heavily in leadership development. I treat it like a curriculum and not just a conversation. I make sure that I am providing insightful coaching, feedback, encouragement, and real opportunities for my team members to be stretched. And at the same time, I'm also looking to drive accountability. I want my team members to feel challenged and I want them to feel supported. I mean, I've always believed that when leaders invest in development consistently, people don't just perform better, they stay longer, they take ownership, and ultimately build confidence in themselves. And then the third practice of mine revolves around data. I would say that I am very deliberate about using data kind of as a flashlight as opposed to a hammer. I think that most of us know that data can help teams learn and improve, and it can help in understanding trends that require attention. And I think that when people see data as a tool instead of a threat, they tend to engage more openly, and this oftentimes lead to improved performances and even outcomes. And so by putting these three things together, ⁓ clarity, development with trust-based accountability, along with the purposeful mining of data. I've been able to create workplace environments with high-performing teams who want to do great work, not because they're forced to and not just because they're paid to, but because they feel invested in.
speaker-0: Yeah, that clarity I call connecting the dots, right? Whether you're showing them how as a team we hit the bottom line and how we can move that needle or just showing them, you know, your individual role as part of the team. This is why you matter. And I think that's part of that leadership muscle memory that, at least for me, it took me years to get because you think you're being clear. You think you're articulating goals and how we get there. And then you have a team going, we don't understand what you're talking about. So you really have to do some reflection on your communication skills when you say, I had a meeting. Why don't you understand it? But every team is different. So I think that's great advice for young leaders because that is critical to any successful leader. Not just to achieve the team goals, but like you're saying, to feel satisfied in their career and feel like they're seen and they're heard and that they're individual contributors to the goals. The other thing you say that's really interesting is around the data part. Because I think that sometimes, especially in our organizations where we were just starting to die, remember big data 15 years ago, but we had so much data, it was analysis paralysis, right? We had meetings about meetings, to have meetings, to analyze until the leaders got that muscle memory of how to use it. So I love the idea that you're saying it's a flashlight or a spotlight, not a hand. It's not the end all be all. It just shifts the direction, right, of what we need. Sometimes we think we're spot on and the data tells us otherwise. How do you maneuver that with teams? Because when you have, let's just say you were on a, you had a goal for your team and you were working on it for three months and then all of a sudden, after you got started with your team, the data told you something else and you had to do that pivot as the leader. How did you handle those types of scenarios where you had to shift your team and make sure they were all rowing in the same direction instead of somebody saying, no, I'm staying here. I don't care what the data says.
speaker-1: Yeah, you know what, so I'm actually sitting here kind of, know, chuckling, you know, inwardly because there was, and I'll tell you a story in a moment, but there was certainly a time in my career where I became minutely focused on all things data. You know, I like to think that, you know, that I've had a career where I've led, you know, with, you know, from a strategic... ⁓ lens and one that obviously incorporates the power of people and one that certainly helped to build purpose as well. But foundationally, I kind of went with data as being kind of the end all of all things. that was really early in my career. And ⁓ I came to understand that it was you know, important to, you know, to be balanced and to understand that, you know, data tells, you know, part of the story, but it doesn't tell, you know, the entire story. There was, ⁓ I'll share with you, ⁓ if I may, ⁓ this story. And it's really, you know, I would say it's one of those leadership lessons. ⁓ that was painful, but I learned something very, very valuable ⁓ from it. And this was again about me not having that balance. So I'm gonna start by saying that probably one of the ⁓ hardest lessons ⁓ that I learned is moving too fast without alignment. and doing so because I'm just strictly relying on data. And this was kind of earlier in my career. So it was about 20 years ago in my role as AVP of claims, I made a decision to pursue a new claims operating system that at the time felt incredibly cutting edge. It was built on what was at that time considered emerging technology. And it was all about cold fusion. And it had, the system had all of these, you know, bells and whistles, and it purported to be able to, you know, churn data in a way that ⁓ almost predicted, you know, what the future would be like. So this is my fascination, you know, with data. So from a strategic and, you know, technical standpoint, you know, from a data standpoint, this system, this operating system looked brilliant. And I was moving fast because at that time, speed felt like leadership. What I didn't fully appreciate, however, was user integration. I hadn't spent enough time with people who are actually going to live in the system every day, the adjusters, the frontline leaders, the end users. At that time, I believe that having clarity at the top, and having a strong vision would expedite things and carry the day, and it did not. And it was a failed decision that led to a delay of several months before full implementation occurred. What I learned somewhat painfully was that it's not just about data, it's not just about analytics. Those things play a role, obviously. within the canvas of leadership. But what I learned was that people, you know, matter ⁓ as much as those other components that I just named. You know, people can hear the same message and walk away with very different interpretations. And when that happens, execution fragments, resistance shows up quietly. and leaders end up spending more time fixing downstream issues than actually doing the work. I would tell you that that experience fundamentally changed how I came to lead. I became much more intentional on ensuring that I was connecting with my team members in both a meaningful and substantive way. ⁓ I became much more intentional in slowing down on the front end to ensure a shared vision and a consensus on action plans. I also started to, again, invest much more time aligning on purpose and outcomes and decision rights and trade-offs, and especially when it came to understanding how change might be experienced by the people closest to the work. So having that upfront alignment has helped to create, for me, psychological safety for my team, it's reduced frictions over the years. And ironically, it has helped to make the execution piece faster and even more durable and even sustainable. That experience also changed how I think about patients. Alignment should not be viewed as hesitation, for it is a leadership discipline that I think we don't give enough attention to. and I would say it's the difference between activity and real progress. So to your point, I'm a data fanatic, but I also understand its role, its place within our canvas of leadership. And you can never ever mitigate or diminish the importance of the people piece.
speaker-0: I think that is one of the best examples of culture beats strategy every day of week, right? And I think that's a challenge. I had a similar experience when I was an AVP, right? When you go from supervisor to manager to AVP to VP, then to C-suite, every level has its own lessons. that no one tells you about. It's like when you have children, everybody's like, come to the club, it's amazing. No one tells you how much work it is, right? But it's the people. So, and I think that a lot of young leaders don't realize because you have to manage up, down, sideways, know, every way, or form, but that managing up and learning, no one teaches you strategy. You have to learn that. I think that's one of the most challenging ⁓ muscle memories of a leader. But that, you you can have the best strategy, the best game plan, the best tools, but if the people don't buy in, it's gonna sit on a shelf or take forever, or you're just going to have to scrap it as a leader. I think that's tremendous advice. But you hit on something else that you said that was one of the pivotal ⁓ points for you as a leader and the leader that you are today. What do you think for leaders in the environment that we're in, because we're moving faster than we ever have to your point of being deliberate, And you do have to move fast, but you also have to make sure you create that time for your team to understand. What do you think is one of the most underestimated skills that leaders might take for granted that's critical?
speaker-1: You know, that's a really great question, Jeanette, and I have to tell you, a couple of months ago, I was speaking to a group of high schoolers, and it was really just a magical moment. We were talking about, you know, really careers that existed within the insurance industry. And one of the instructors who was sitting with the high schoolers, you know, basically asked me that question that you just posed to me. And so one of the things I said in that regard was that I think that the most, you know, underestimated leadership skill today is listening, real listening. Not listening to respond, not listening to defend a position, but listening to understand context and emotion and intent. One of the things that I learned during my PhD pursuit was that in complex organizations, leaders often feel pressure to move fast and to have answers, but speed without understanding usually creates rework, which can lead to such things like cost overruns or inefficiencies and certainly waste as well. When leaders truly listen, a few things happen. First, people tell you the truth sooner about things like risk and about culture and what's really broken. Second, trust increases, which actually accelerates execution. And third, you start solving the right problems instead of the most visible ones. so I've learned over time that most organizational issues aren't technical, they're human. You know, we sometimes live and operate in misalignment or fear or assumptions. And so when you have real or active listening embedded in your culture, opportunities to problem solve tend to surface before failure actually occurs. So for me, listening is a form of respect. It signals to people that they matter and that their perspective And once people feel heard, they're far more willing to commit, even when the work is hard or the change is somewhat uncomfortable. And so that's one of those skills, listening, real listening, that I think is underestimated and I think at times undervalued. And I'm not going to get political, but I will say that all we have to do is turn on any TV and... and listen to political pundits and wonder if anybody's listening to the other.
speaker-0: 100 % is a great example actually, yes. You know that you bring up something that I call it curiosity, right? Part of listening means all the things that you said, but you're also curious to learn and you're a great example because leaders never stop learning, whether it's reading books or listening to podcasts or your education, I still continue to grow as a leader and I learn new things every day that help me become a better leader. How do you coach that? Because listening is one thing, but what's behind the listening? It's so that you can learn from other people, different perspectives or something. I always hire people smarter than me, right? I learn from direct reports all the time. But how do you teach that?
speaker-1: So one of the things that ⁓ I take a lot of pride in and one of the things that I say to my team members, I say to people that I mentor, people that I coach up to as well, is that what really starts as being very foundational to developing great listening skills is starting with the understanding that connecting with people in a very meaningful and substantive way allows the best opportunity for you to understand the idiosyncrasies and the nuances of that or those individuals. And if you can come to understand the idiosyncrasies and the nuances of individuals, what it allows you to do in many instances is to understand how best to connect with them, how best to communicate with them. how best to help them to understand your point of view while also giving you insight on how to understand their point of view as well. But it has to start with a desire to make, I think, a meaningful and substantive connection with individuals. That doesn't mean that you have to become extremely personal with the individual. It doesn't mean that you even have to be best friends with the individual. It is about finding that best mechanism for being able to communicate. If, as a leader, you take the opportunity to connect in that meaningful, substantive way because you're listening to understand, it also creates the opportunity to help motivate people to achieve shared goals. It also helps... with getting individuals to understand more clearly what the pathway ⁓ is to ⁓ establish goals. And so from a leadership perspective, listening can make life so much easier with regards to understanding how best to create shared visions, how best to motivate people to achieve their dreams as well as a collective. dream or set of goals for your organization. So I don't know if I effectively answered that question or not.
speaker-0: You did. Because I do, I think it's this reciprocity, right? When you're having a conversation, especially in business, you're looking to glean information from that person. However, you have to make sure you're contributing something to the conversation, whether it's the listening or the guiding, so that the other person contributes the same amount, right?
speaker-1: Yes. Yeah.
speaker-0: So one thing that I think is interesting also is, at least I can say for me, mean, our industry, but the world in general has become ⁓ much more open to allowing people to become at these tables, to sit at the table. And I know I had challenges. Every level that I went in management, and I had always aspired to be at C-suite. That was just, I wanted to really be a leader that... was able to effectuate change because I got frustrated on the front line of saying, hey, I see this every day. I have a great idea. But there were a lot of leaders that said, you know, do as I say, not as I do. This is the way our organization has always done it. All of the things we kind of grew up on. But there is, to how we started the conversation, you have to be able to pivot and adapt. You may walk into a team where if you're very innovative and they are not, you've got political challenges while you're in management. And I think for some of the younger people, we don't talk about the honesty of that enough. It's hard. It's not easy. You've got company responsibilities. You've got people responsibilities. But have you ever had a role that either it was a challenge to sit at the table and be heard, or you sat at the table and you said, wow, this is not the place for me. And actually walked away and found another table that fit better for you.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a really great question, Jeanette. there's so many examples in my career that I think kind of speaks to the question that you ask. I would actually say that there isn't necessarily a single moment so much as a realization that kind of crystallized over time. And that really kind of helped to you know, kind of define, you know, my leadership style and who I am as a leader. But having noticed that, you know, there was an early incident in my leadership career that really, you know, kind of helped to define, you know, how I lead today and how I present myself at the proverbial table. was, some time ago, this was, you know, several years ago, I was given responsibility for a team that was technically cabled but underutilized. They were executing tasks very well, but they weren't fully engaged and they didn't yet see their own potential. Around that time, I realized that my greatest impact wasn't going to come from being the smartest person in the room or driving results myself. it was going to come from helping others see what they were capable of and creating the kind of conditions that would allow them and us to be successful. And that experience actually kind of shaped three things about my leadership style. First, I learned that the power of mentorship ⁓ is phenomenal. When you invest time in people, You really listen, you challenge them, you advocate for their growth. You don't just improve performance, you change trajectories. And watching people step into confidence and capabilities became one of the most meaningful parts of my career. I'm gonna relate this to the table in a moment. Secondly, it reinforced for me that results matter, but how you achieve them matter. just as much. So I've always enjoyed the opportunities to optimize outcomes for the organizations I've served. But I learned that sustainable results come from engaged, empowered teams and not just pressure along. And then third, it made me commit to continuous learning, something you and I talked about earlier. I realized that if I wanted to be a valuable asset to all stakeholders, employees, customers, executives, boards, I had to keep developing myself. That mindset eventually led me to some of the formal studies and ongoing self-reflections that reside with me today. ⁓ Later, when I came across two of my favorite leadership authors of all times, Kuhls and Puzner, and I came across the leadership challenge, which speaks to the five best practices of exemplary leadership, which would include modeling the way, ⁓ inspiring a shared vision, challenging the process, enabling others to act and encouraging the heart. That resonated with me in a very deep kind of way because I realized that I had been leaning into those practices without really having a language for them. And that framework kind of helped me become more intentional about how I lead. So that moment and the many experiences that followed, defined my leadership style as one kind of rooted in people, purpose, and performance. Helping others grow, delivering meaningful results, and never stopping. you know, my own learning became the foundations throughout, you know, throughout my career. And so when I found myself ⁓ either invited to these proverbial tables or promoted to a level that required me to be a part of these proverbial tables, I sometimes joined these tables with a little bit of ⁓ hesitancy. know, questioning whether or not I belonged at the table, and in one sense of whether or not, you know, I was capable of, you know, contributing in a way that truly mattered. And so, taking the opportunity to kind of, again, kind of reflect back on lessons that helped to crystallize my leadership, you know, style. allowed me to understand that connecting with those leaders who were sitting around that table, those other thought leaders, and looking to challenge and encourage them in a way that they look to challenge and encourage others so that we could find common pathways to solve problems that we were required to solve at our level ⁓ made all the difference in the world. Connecting, still looking to to collaborate and to have ⁓ discourses where we weren't necessarily all in agreement, but found ways to find common ground in order to move forward. those were, some of those lessons I talked about kind of helped prepared me, I think, for the many tables that I've been a part of. But I needed to go into those rooms. know, believing that I could contribute and add to the quality of the thought leaders who were in that room. And once I was able to kind of get over the, you know, the mystique of, you know, questioning whether or not I belong and could contribute, I just started trying to contribute. And encouraged and challenged and be encouraged and challenged back. And so I can't say honestly that
speaker-0: Right, right, exactly.
speaker-1: that I'd been in a room or at a table and walked away. Now, that may happen in the near future because I'm about to embark on another career as an educator. It's new to me and I might find myself like a fish out of water. But in those instances, I'll hopefully be able to kind of rely on some of the learnings that I've been a part of during my career in this industry.
speaker-0: As you have articulated in a way, honestly, I have not heard yet that I think especially young leaders, but I still read leadership books. have 50 of them sitting on my shelf because for me, it's a way to get different perspectives about leadership. it allows me to, the saying is if you can't manage yourself, you can't manage other people, right? And I've evolved as a person, but I think what you're saying is when you are going into a new position, You really have to know what your foundation is before you can even understand how you can contribute or collaborate. And if you don't have that, that would be a great starting point leaving this podcast. Make sure that you study enough to find out who you want to be as a leader, because otherwise you're not showing up with whatever your authentic self is. You're trying to adapt. And I've seen a lot of leaders do that. They come in and they have this amazing skillset that they were hired for. but because they want to fit in, they adapt, which essentially diminishes some of the things they could contribute. And you're saying the absolute opposite. I think it's terrific.
speaker-1: Yeah, I so appreciate that, Jeanette, and you used a word that really resonates with me, and that is, you know, authenticity. You know, whenever, you over the course of, you know, 37 years or so, having had the opportunity to, you know, to interview and to have had the opportunity to interview so many people as well, you know, one of the things that I've remained true to is my authenticity. because I never wanted an organization or the hiring manager to hire someone other than who I was and what I was presenting myself to be. So I've always preached the importance of being authentic and giving individuals the opportunity to make that decision as to whether or not that's the kind of authenticity. that they desire or not, but realness is important. Integrity and honesty are important leadership qualities ⁓ that any leader can benefit regardless of the industry that he or she might be a part of. So I really appreciate what you've had to say about the importance of authenticity. It gets lost far too often, I think, by the noise that we... found ourselves surrounded by at times.
speaker-0: what we think we should be, what others want us to be. there's a core to who we are that we just can't, especially when you're, some of the situations you're talking about when you're in a difficult part of your career where things aren't working. If you don't stay true to yourself, it's like taking somebody else's strategy. People are always like, ⁓ someone took your, I'm like, but they can't execute it. It's not their DNA. That was my DNA. Well, you talk about moving on to a new career, which I think is incredibly exciting, but you're still going to be in the industry with WRMC, which is a new organization, which is trying to attract new talent. Is, is there, I think that's again, a great leader because few people are leaders in one aspect. You're a leader in other areas of your life, whether it's coaching or continuing education or reach outs like you're doing to younger people. Why did you choose, since you're going into education, to still leave one foot in our industry?
speaker-1: Well, I so appreciate, you know, I appreciate the, you know, the question and I have to tell you that I really one feel very fortunate to have been presented with the opportunity to be one of the founding members of, know, WRMC. And this, I don't know that many people know the story, but it was maybe it was two years ago at the NIA convention in New Orleans that a group of us ⁓ got together after dinner. We found ourselves actually in the lobby of the hotel and it was right around midnight. And we were talking about just some of the events of the day at the conference and we were talking about just some of the wonderful takeaways from many of the the wonderful speakers who had presented that day. And we started kind of remarking on how incredibly wonderful this industry has been for each of us. And we started asking, what can we do to help, especially kids who come from... know, socially, economically, you know, distressed situations. What can we do to give them perhaps, you know, a bridge into, you know, our industry? And so we were sitting, we were sitting together, like it says around midnight, New Orleans, and we're talking about opening, you know, a pathway, you know, for, you know, high schoolers. And so there was... five or six of us, and we said that we were gonna stay committed to kind of building out this track work that would create the exposure and provide mentorship and create opportunities for ⁓ individuals to have a pathway into the industry. And so we are not yet fully a year into this effort, but already ⁓ we have, you know, we've, we've talked to literally hundreds of, you know, high schoolers in the Atlanta area and, and we presented the opportunity for many of them to, to apply for the opportunity to, to be, become, you know, students of WRMC and our inaugural class now totals right at 50, you know, kids. That's amazing. the excitement is palpable. There are joys about having the joys that come with being able to see yourself beyond the next day and actually being able to visualize a future where you're... earning a really, really good living, but doing something and doing something that really matters. And that can be, you know, transformative for them, for their families and for their communities. It has been really a beautiful thing to witness and a beautiful thing to be a part of. And so, yes, I'll be stepping away from or leaving, you know, our industry, you know, ⁓ in a manner that I've been a part of our industry for so long. But I'm not going to ever stop being a mentor to so many in the industry. And certainly I'm not going to stop trying to create opportunities for others. And one of the reasons I even decided to go back to school and to pursue my PhD, which I'm preparing to defend at the end of the year, that is my dissertation at the end of the year. is because of my desire to ⁓ help hopefully change the trajectory of young kids who again come particularly from socially, economically distressed environments. There was a Pew study done about 18, 19 years ago and it talked about how by the time most kids, regardless of economics, ⁓ regardless of their economic status, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of gender, by the time most kids reach the age of nine, their trajectory for life has pretty much been determined. And whether that's a trajectory for success or a trajectory for criminality or a trajectory for poverty or something in between, ⁓ you know, with that thought in mind, I've always thought, what if, you know, I had a platform or I had the opportunity to maybe connect with these kids long before they reached that age and potentially change the trajectory and maybe angle it towards a trajectory of success. And then for those kids who are way beyond the age of nine, is there an opportunity where a course correction might be necessary for me to apply some of the learnings from my career ⁓ to make a difference for them as well. So WRMC is so dear to my heart. It's so dear to the founding members. We now have an executive board. I know that all of those board members are so very much committed to making a difference for you know, you know, for kids and changing the dynamics of our industry. And I'll shut up after this, you know, cause you know, you had me talking about something just so really.
speaker-0: No, I love it. I love it. Yeah
speaker-1: But you talk about our industry and I don't have the points of data in front of me, but we do know that every year, because of retirement or because of people just simply changing a course of direction from a career perspective, but we're losing a lot of people from the insurance industry. And here's a perfect opportunity. ⁓ you know, to join others and trying to find a way to re-infuse, you know, our industry, you know, with great talent that's willing and ready to be developed and ready to make a difference, you know, in our insurance industry. And who are so open to the idea of having knowledge transferred into them at the same time. Because we have a lot of folks in the industry, people like... I was going to say people like you and I are much older than you, so let me say that. But we recognize the importance of transferring knowledge as a way of keeping our industry foundationally strong. I know I said a lot there, but...
speaker-0: That's amazing. No, no, that's, fabulous because that's one of the things that I think is missing is I rolled up my sleeves aside alongside many, many leaders who are in all types of positions in our industry, but we put in our blood, sweat and tears to actually make the industry better. And I've seen something, I don't know if it's the pandemic. I don't know if it's just. how technology has come into our lives, but the giving part, I see it smaller and smaller. So it's so exciting. I'm glad you shared it. Maybe it'll inspire some other people. know there are, like Naya, there's so many industry organizations that are getting together like-minded individuals who want to serve the industry. Not just, hey, what can I go to a conference and learn to make myself better? It's truly how are when we leave, whatever stage of the career that we are in, how are we going to leave it where it's sustainable? Because if we don't continue to have that participation like you're talking about and building for the next gen, there won't be one, or it's going to look very, very different. It's actually scary where we are right now. that's amazing and hats off to the board and everyone who had the idea. And I wish you guys all all the success. will definitely keep my eye on you. And perhaps we can get some other board members on to chat about it as it grows.
speaker-1: That would be so very wonderful and I so very much appreciate your words, Jeanette. Thank you.
speaker-0: Well, thank you for your time today. It's just been a great conversation. I know our listeners will glean a lot of lessons out of what you've shared. And I just wish you all the success in your next endeavor.
speaker-1: I so appreciate this, Jeanette. I have to tell you, I didn't know exactly what to expect. ⁓ I've certainly seen many of your podcasts, and ⁓ so I've certainly been engaged by all of them. Hopefully, ⁓ this will prove to be engaging for some as well. But this was really ⁓ a thrill for me. It was an honor to... and be asked to be a part of your podcast as well. And I cannot think of ⁓ a better way, I guess, to kind of exit our industry by being a part of your podcast. So thank you very much for having me, Jeanette.
speaker-0: I love it. We have something that will remain here long after you. It's part of your legacy that you're leaving.
speaker-1: Well, you're very kind. Thank you, Jeanette, and obviously all the best to you as well.
speaker-0: Thank you. ⁓
speaker-1: know, Jeanette, it's really an honor to have the opportunity to spend the next few minutes with you. I'm really looking forward to the conversation.
speaker-0: Great. ⁓ So can you just share for those that may not know you, you have a distinguished long career in the PNC industry, but how did you get to the table that you're at today?
speaker-1: So I appreciate the question, Jeanette. So I'll start by saying that my journey into the insurance industry wasn't planned. But in many ways, I would say it was very intentional. When I was a senior at Morehouse College in Atlanta, I was weighing two very different paths. One was becoming an educator and teaching school in Des Moines, Iowa. And the other was going to law school. And so like many 19-year-olds, I genuinely wanted to, at that time, do something that would allow me to change the world and make a difference for others. And both of these ⁓ paths, I thought, provided me with a meaningful way to kind of achieve that. Ultimately, I chose law school. But after completing my first year, I came to a really hard realization. And that was, I couldn't figure out how to successfully be a full-time husband, a full-time father, a full-time employee, and a full-time student. So something had to give, and the thing that I let go of was law school. So I ended up returning home, and I found myself asking some very important questions. I was looking for work that would allow me to serve others, to solve problems, to continue learning ⁓ and growing, and ideally something that I could commit to for the long term. And around that time, ⁓ a really dear friend of mine introduced me to the ideal of insurance, not as a job, but as a profession where you can make a real impact in people's lives. That introduction... led to an interview and a job offer with Progressive Insurance Company. And that decision changed the trajectory of my life from being very transparent. And so over the past 37 years or so, I've had the privilege of leading a wide range of teams across multiple insurance organizations. I've served in roles, including Vice President and President of Claims. I've served as Chief Operating Officer. I've served as AVP, I've served as president and CEO of my own third party administrator, and ultimately as chief claims officer here at A.F. Along the way, I would say that what kept me engaged wasn't just the work itself, it was truly the people. And I know we talk a lot about people, and you'll find that people... has always been very central to my foundational leadership. I've had the opportunity to mentor so many people in our industry and even outside of our industry. I've had the opportunity to help individuals recognize their potential, to optimize outcomes for the organizations that I've served, and to collaborate with extraordinary leaders and individual contributors. that I've led, some who've led me and many who walked alongside me. So when I look back, ⁓ I would say that, you know, insurance became kind of that perfect intersection of everything I was looking for early on. Service, problem solving, ⁓ continuous learning, and the chance to make a meaningful difference, not just once, but over an entire career. So it may not have been the path I imagined at the age of 19, but it turned out to be exactly the path I needed to travel.
speaker-0: You have so many things in there for me to unpack that I'm going to start with the first one because I had a similar ⁓ experience. graduated from college. My first job was State Farm in the newspaper, right? Best paying job. was like, but I had to support myself going to law school. And after the first year, I had a very similar conversation with myself. Do I want to practice law or am I doing this because this is what I think will get me to my ultimate? position that I'm aspiring to be at. And it wasn't the path I was supposed to be on. So it's funny because we talk a lot on the podcast about did you get to where you are very intentionally or were you able to pivot when different opportunities came your way, which may not have been the path that you were on when you began. And so I think that is an amazing thing that you can share with the listeners that at such a young age. because we have to do this throughout our whole career. Are we at the right table? It isn't always aspiring to a position. Sometimes we're at a table where we don't fit. And that can be either in your position or in your own career path that you're designing for yourself. I think that's, thank you for sharing that, because there's a lot of young leaders in our industry that probably have a written roadmap and rarely does that ever come to fruition, right? There's always something, whether family. or you just change as a human being throughout your career and you have to look for other opportunities. ahead.
speaker-1: No, I was going to say, know, Jeanette, I mean, your points are so, you know, so well made. And one of the things that, you know, that I try to, ⁓ you know, encourage those whom I, you know, have, you know, mentoring relationships with and something that, you know, other thought leaders and I talk about when we, know, kind of examine our careers. And it's the importance of having the courage to change and pivot. And you kind of notice that. You know, I think it's important to have an idea about what you want to do and to have, you know, a plan of action for ⁓ achieving, you know, that end goal. But it's kind of like, you know, as you can see in the background here, ⁓ I have a chess set. I'm actually a nationally ranked chess player and I love, you know, the game of chess and in part because chess is, I think, two parts. It's about strategy and it's also... about psychology. And I think, know, what, you know, some of the valuable lessons I've learned from the game of chess is like understanding that, yes, you want to have a focus on what ultimately you want to accomplish, but to understand that life has a way, you know, of throwing, you know, things in your pathway that causes you or creates the need for you to have to pivot. And sometimes that takes courage. So I really appreciate what you just said about the importance of pivoting and changing that direction and sometimes changing that end goal as well.
speaker-0: And the other thing that you mentioned that I think is really critical is we are struggling attracting talent and it's not a job. I remember when I came in, I came in as an auto adjuster, right? Back in the day when you did field investigations, you owned it all. But this is truly a noble profession for whatever, you know, the public views us because we get lumped in with life insurance and health insurance, but really everything we do. we're there for our insureds at the time of need. And the more you're in the career, that sense of service that you're talking about, if that's in your DNA, insurance is the opportunity to do that. you can have the most intellectually stimulating job ⁓ somewhere in an organization, but it's that service that kept me almost, I've been at it 36 years now, because I felt like I was doing something good in the world. And there's not a whole lot of jobs that you can feel that way. So another amazing point for maybe some of our... our younger leaders that might be listening. ⁓ We were chatting a little bit before we got started and I was saying, I've seen the industry change more in the last five years than I have in the last 20. So are there anything, any things that you can say throughout your, let's just say leadership versus career, because I'm sure that's evolved over the years, maybe two or three things that. you have used consistently to build great teams and be a servant leader, which you clearly are, that you might want to impart on some of our people listening.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a really great question. know, Jeanette, I would say that there are probably three ⁓ leadership practices that I've relied on pretty consistently throughout my career, regardless of my role or the organization that I was a part of. First, ⁓ I've always strived to create a sense of clarity for my team members. And that translates into making sure that I'm providing clear expectations, clear priorities, and a clear definition of what success looks like. I think that we can probably all agree that lack of clarity or too much ambiguity can be exhausting for teams. And in this regard, I've also come to learn that high-performing teams don't necessarily struggle because the teams lack talent. they oftentimes struggle because expectations are unclear. And so I spent a lot of time, you know, making sure that people understand why the work matters and helping them to understand what success actually looks like and how their role connects to the broader mission. Because when clarity is missing, people fill the gaps themselves and that can lead to frustration and obviously misalignment. I invest heavily in leadership development. I treat it like a curriculum and not just a conversation. I make sure that I am providing insightful coaching, feedback, encouragement, and real opportunities for my team members to be stretched. And at the same time, I'm also looking to drive accountability. I want my team members to feel challenged and I want them to feel supported. I mean, I've always believed that when leaders invest in development consistently, people don't just perform better, they stay longer, they take ownership, and ultimately build confidence in themselves. And then the third practice of mine revolves around data. I would say that I am very deliberate about using data kind of as a flashlight as opposed to a hammer. I think that most of us know that data can help teams learn and improve, and it can help in understanding trends that require attention. And I think that when people see data as a tool instead of a threat, they tend to engage more openly, and this oftentimes lead to improved performances and even outcomes. And so by putting these three things together, ⁓ clarity, development with trust-based accountability, along with the purposeful mining of data. I've been able to create workplace environments with high-performing teams who want to do great work, not because they're forced to and not just because they're paid to, but because they feel invested in.
speaker-0: Yeah, that clarity I call connecting the dots, right? Whether you're showing them how as a team we hit the bottom line and how we can move that needle or just showing them, you know, your individual role as part of the team. This is why you matter. And I think that's part of that leadership muscle memory that, at least for me, it took me years to get because you think you're being clear. You think you're articulating goals and how we get there. And then you have a team going, we don't understand what you're talking about. So you really have to do some reflection on your communication skills when you say, I had a meeting. Why don't you understand it? But every team is different. So I think that's great advice for young leaders because that is critical to any successful leader. Not just to achieve the team goals, but like you're saying, to feel satisfied in their career and feel like they're seen and they're heard and that they're individual contributors to the goals. The other thing you say that's really interesting is around the data part. Because I think that sometimes, especially in our organizations where we were just starting to die, remember big data 15 years ago, but we had so much data, it was analysis paralysis, right? We had meetings about meetings, to have meetings, to analyze until the leaders got that muscle memory of how to use it. So I love the idea that you're saying it's a flashlight or a spotlight, not a hand. It's not the end all be all. It just shifts the direction, right, of what we need. Sometimes we think we're spot on and the data tells us otherwise. How do you maneuver that with teams? Because when you have, let's just say you were on a, you had a goal for your team and you were working on it for three months and then all of a sudden, after you got started with your team, the data told you something else and you had to do that pivot as the leader. How did you handle those types of scenarios where you had to shift your team and make sure they were all rowing in the same direction instead of somebody saying, no, I'm staying here. I don't care what the data says.
speaker-1: Yeah, you know what, so I'm actually sitting here kind of, know, chuckling, you know, inwardly because there was, and I'll tell you a story in a moment, but there was certainly a time in my career where I became minutely focused on all things data. You know, I like to think that, you know, that I've had a career where I've led, you know, with, you know, from a strategic... ⁓ lens and one that obviously incorporates the power of people and one that certainly helped to build purpose as well. But foundationally, I kind of went with data as being kind of the end all of all things. that was really early in my career. And ⁓ I came to understand that it was you know, important to, you know, to be balanced and to understand that, you know, data tells, you know, part of the story, but it doesn't tell, you know, the entire story. There was, ⁓ I'll share with you, ⁓ if I may, ⁓ this story. And it's really, you know, I would say it's one of those leadership lessons. ⁓ that was painful, but I learned something very, very valuable ⁓ from it. And this was again about me not having that balance. So I'm gonna start by saying that probably one of the ⁓ hardest lessons ⁓ that I learned is moving too fast without alignment. and doing so because I'm just strictly relying on data. And this was kind of earlier in my career. So it was about 20 years ago in my role as AVP of claims, I made a decision to pursue a new claims operating system that at the time felt incredibly cutting edge. It was built on what was at that time considered emerging technology. And it was all about cold fusion. And it had, the system had all of these, you know, bells and whistles, and it purported to be able to, you know, churn data in a way that ⁓ almost predicted, you know, what the future would be like. So this is my fascination, you know, with data. So from a strategic and, you know, technical standpoint, you know, from a data standpoint, this system, this operating system looked brilliant. And I was moving fast because at that time, speed felt like leadership. What I didn't fully appreciate, however, was user integration. I hadn't spent enough time with people who are actually going to live in the system every day, the adjusters, the frontline leaders, the end users. At that time, I believe that having clarity at the top, and having a strong vision would expedite things and carry the day, and it did not. And it was a failed decision that led to a delay of several months before full implementation occurred. What I learned somewhat painfully was that it's not just about data, it's not just about analytics. Those things play a role, obviously. within the canvas of leadership. But what I learned was that people, you know, matter ⁓ as much as those other components that I just named. You know, people can hear the same message and walk away with very different interpretations. And when that happens, execution fragments, resistance shows up quietly. and leaders end up spending more time fixing downstream issues than actually doing the work. I would tell you that that experience fundamentally changed how I came to lead. I became much more intentional on ensuring that I was connecting with my team members in both a meaningful and substantive way. ⁓ I became much more intentional in slowing down on the front end to ensure a shared vision and a consensus on action plans. I also started to, again, invest much more time aligning on purpose and outcomes and decision rights and trade-offs, and especially when it came to understanding how change might be experienced by the people closest to the work. So having that upfront alignment has helped to create, for me, psychological safety for my team, it's reduced frictions over the years. And ironically, it has helped to make the execution piece faster and even more durable and even sustainable. That experience also changed how I think about patients. Alignment should not be viewed as hesitation, for it is a leadership discipline that I think we don't give enough attention to. and I would say it's the difference between activity and real progress. So to your point, I'm a data fanatic, but I also understand its role, its place within our canvas of leadership. And you can never ever mitigate or diminish the importance of the people piece.
speaker-0: I think that is one of the best examples of culture beats strategy every day of week, right? And I think that's a challenge. I had a similar experience when I was an AVP, right? When you go from supervisor to manager to AVP to VP, then to C-suite, every level has its own lessons. that no one tells you about. It's like when you have children, everybody's like, come to the club, it's amazing. No one tells you how much work it is, right? But it's the people. So, and I think that a lot of young leaders don't realize because you have to manage up, down, sideways, know, every way, or form, but that managing up and learning, no one teaches you strategy. You have to learn that. I think that's one of the most challenging ⁓ muscle memories of a leader. But that, you you can have the best strategy, the best game plan, the best tools, but if the people don't buy in, it's gonna sit on a shelf or take forever, or you're just going to have to scrap it as a leader. I think that's tremendous advice. But you hit on something else that you said that was one of the pivotal ⁓ points for you as a leader and the leader that you are today. What do you think for leaders in the environment that we're in, because we're moving faster than we ever have to your point of being deliberate, And you do have to move fast, but you also have to make sure you create that time for your team to understand. What do you think is one of the most underestimated skills that leaders might take for granted that's critical?
speaker-1: You know, that's a really great question, Jeanette, and I have to tell you, a couple of months ago, I was speaking to a group of high schoolers, and it was really just a magical moment. We were talking about, you know, really careers that existed within the insurance industry. And one of the instructors who was sitting with the high schoolers, you know, basically asked me that question that you just posed to me. And so one of the things I said in that regard was that I think that the most, you know, underestimated leadership skill today is listening, real listening. Not listening to respond, not listening to defend a position, but listening to understand context and emotion and intent. One of the things that I learned during my PhD pursuit was that in complex organizations, leaders often feel pressure to move fast and to have answers, but speed without understanding usually creates rework, which can lead to such things like cost overruns or inefficiencies and certainly waste as well. When leaders truly listen, a few things happen. First, people tell you the truth sooner about things like risk and about culture and what's really broken. Second, trust increases, which actually accelerates execution. And third, you start solving the right problems instead of the most visible ones. so I've learned over time that most organizational issues aren't technical, they're human. You know, we sometimes live and operate in misalignment or fear or assumptions. And so when you have real or active listening embedded in your culture, opportunities to problem solve tend to surface before failure actually occurs. So for me, listening is a form of respect. It signals to people that they matter and that their perspective And once people feel heard, they're far more willing to commit, even when the work is hard or the change is somewhat uncomfortable. And so that's one of those skills, listening, real listening, that I think is underestimated and I think at times undervalued. And I'm not going to get political, but I will say that all we have to do is turn on any TV and... and listen to political pundits and wonder if anybody's listening to the other.
speaker-0: 100 % is a great example actually, yes. You know that you bring up something that I call it curiosity, right? Part of listening means all the things that you said, but you're also curious to learn and you're a great example because leaders never stop learning, whether it's reading books or listening to podcasts or your education, I still continue to grow as a leader and I learn new things every day that help me become a better leader. How do you coach that? Because listening is one thing, but what's behind the listening? It's so that you can learn from other people, different perspectives or something. I always hire people smarter than me, right? I learn from direct reports all the time. But how do you teach that?
speaker-1: So one of the things that ⁓ I take a lot of pride in and one of the things that I say to my team members, I say to people that I mentor, people that I coach up to as well, is that what really starts as being very foundational to developing great listening skills is starting with the understanding that connecting with people in a very meaningful and substantive way allows the best opportunity for you to understand the idiosyncrasies and the nuances of that or those individuals. And if you can come to understand the idiosyncrasies and the nuances of individuals, what it allows you to do in many instances is to understand how best to connect with them, how best to communicate with them. how best to help them to understand your point of view while also giving you insight on how to understand their point of view as well. But it has to start with a desire to make, I think, a meaningful and substantive connection with individuals. That doesn't mean that you have to become extremely personal with the individual. It doesn't mean that you even have to be best friends with the individual. It is about finding that best mechanism for being able to communicate. If, as a leader, you take the opportunity to connect in that meaningful, substantive way because you're listening to understand, it also creates the opportunity to help motivate people to achieve shared goals. It also helps... with getting individuals to understand more clearly what the pathway ⁓ is to ⁓ establish goals. And so from a leadership perspective, listening can make life so much easier with regards to understanding how best to create shared visions, how best to motivate people to achieve their dreams as well as a collective. dream or set of goals for your organization. So I don't know if I effectively answered that question or not.
speaker-0: You did. Because I do, I think it's this reciprocity, right? When you're having a conversation, especially in business, you're looking to glean information from that person. However, you have to make sure you're contributing something to the conversation, whether it's the listening or the guiding, so that the other person contributes the same amount, right?
speaker-1: Yes. Yeah.
speaker-0: So one thing that I think is interesting also is, at least I can say for me, mean, our industry, but the world in general has become ⁓ much more open to allowing people to become at these tables, to sit at the table. And I know I had challenges. Every level that I went in management, and I had always aspired to be at C-suite. That was just, I wanted to really be a leader that... was able to effectuate change because I got frustrated on the front line of saying, hey, I see this every day. I have a great idea. But there were a lot of leaders that said, you know, do as I say, not as I do. This is the way our organization has always done it. All of the things we kind of grew up on. But there is, to how we started the conversation, you have to be able to pivot and adapt. You may walk into a team where if you're very innovative and they are not, you've got political challenges while you're in management. And I think for some of the younger people, we don't talk about the honesty of that enough. It's hard. It's not easy. You've got company responsibilities. You've got people responsibilities. But have you ever had a role that either it was a challenge to sit at the table and be heard, or you sat at the table and you said, wow, this is not the place for me. And actually walked away and found another table that fit better for you.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a really great question, Jeanette. there's so many examples in my career that I think kind of speaks to the question that you ask. I would actually say that there isn't necessarily a single moment so much as a realization that kind of crystallized over time. And that really kind of helped to you know, kind of define, you know, my leadership style and who I am as a leader. But having noticed that, you know, there was an early incident in my leadership career that really, you know, kind of helped to define, you know, how I lead today and how I present myself at the proverbial table. was, some time ago, this was, you know, several years ago, I was given responsibility for a team that was technically cabled but underutilized. They were executing tasks very well, but they weren't fully engaged and they didn't yet see their own potential. Around that time, I realized that my greatest impact wasn't going to come from being the smartest person in the room or driving results myself. it was going to come from helping others see what they were capable of and creating the kind of conditions that would allow them and us to be successful. And that experience actually kind of shaped three things about my leadership style. First, I learned that the power of mentorship ⁓ is phenomenal. When you invest time in people, You really listen, you challenge them, you advocate for their growth. You don't just improve performance, you change trajectories. And watching people step into confidence and capabilities became one of the most meaningful parts of my career. I'm gonna relate this to the table in a moment. Secondly, it reinforced for me that results matter, but how you achieve them matter. just as much. So I've always enjoyed the opportunities to optimize outcomes for the organizations I've served. But I learned that sustainable results come from engaged, empowered teams and not just pressure along. And then third, it made me commit to continuous learning, something you and I talked about earlier. I realized that if I wanted to be a valuable asset to all stakeholders, employees, customers, executives, boards, I had to keep developing myself. That mindset eventually led me to some of the formal studies and ongoing self-reflections that reside with me today. ⁓ Later, when I came across two of my favorite leadership authors of all times, Kuhls and Puzner, and I came across the leadership challenge, which speaks to the five best practices of exemplary leadership, which would include modeling the way, ⁓ inspiring a shared vision, challenging the process, enabling others to act and encouraging the heart. That resonated with me in a very deep kind of way because I realized that I had been leaning into those practices without really having a language for them. And that framework kind of helped me become more intentional about how I lead. So that moment and the many experiences that followed, defined my leadership style as one kind of rooted in people, purpose, and performance. Helping others grow, delivering meaningful results, and never stopping. you know, my own learning became the foundations throughout, you know, throughout my career. And so when I found myself ⁓ either invited to these proverbial tables or promoted to a level that required me to be a part of these proverbial tables, I sometimes joined these tables with a little bit of ⁓ hesitancy. know, questioning whether or not I belonged at the table, and in one sense of whether or not, you know, I was capable of, you know, contributing in a way that truly mattered. And so, taking the opportunity to kind of, again, kind of reflect back on lessons that helped to crystallize my leadership, you know, style. allowed me to understand that connecting with those leaders who were sitting around that table, those other thought leaders, and looking to challenge and encourage them in a way that they look to challenge and encourage others so that we could find common pathways to solve problems that we were required to solve at our level ⁓ made all the difference in the world. Connecting, still looking to to collaborate and to have ⁓ discourses where we weren't necessarily all in agreement, but found ways to find common ground in order to move forward. those were, some of those lessons I talked about kind of helped prepared me, I think, for the many tables that I've been a part of. But I needed to go into those rooms. know, believing that I could contribute and add to the quality of the thought leaders who were in that room. And once I was able to kind of get over the, you know, the mystique of, you know, questioning whether or not I belong and could contribute, I just started trying to contribute. And encouraged and challenged and be encouraged and challenged back. And so I can't say honestly that
speaker-0: Right, right, exactly.
speaker-1: that I'd been in a room or at a table and walked away. Now, that may happen in the near future because I'm about to embark on another career as an educator. It's new to me and I might find myself like a fish out of water. But in those instances, I'll hopefully be able to kind of rely on some of the learnings that I've been a part of during my career in this industry.
speaker-0: As you have articulated in a way, honestly, I have not heard yet that I think especially young leaders, but I still read leadership books. have 50 of them sitting on my shelf because for me, it's a way to get different perspectives about leadership. it allows me to, the saying is if you can't manage yourself, you can't manage other people, right? And I've evolved as a person, but I think what you're saying is when you are going into a new position, You really have to know what your foundation is before you can even understand how you can contribute or collaborate. And if you don't have that, that would be a great starting point leaving this podcast. Make sure that you study enough to find out who you want to be as a leader, because otherwise you're not showing up with whatever your authentic self is. You're trying to adapt. And I've seen a lot of leaders do that. They come in and they have this amazing skillset that they were hired for. but because they want to fit in, they adapt, which essentially diminishes some of the things they could contribute. And you're saying the absolute opposite. I think it's terrific.
speaker-1: Yeah, I so appreciate that, Jeanette, and you used a word that really resonates with me, and that is, you know, authenticity. You know, whenever, you over the course of, you know, 37 years or so, having had the opportunity to, you know, to interview and to have had the opportunity to interview so many people as well, you know, one of the things that I've remained true to is my authenticity. because I never wanted an organization or the hiring manager to hire someone other than who I was and what I was presenting myself to be. So I've always preached the importance of being authentic and giving individuals the opportunity to make that decision as to whether or not that's the kind of authenticity. that they desire or not, but realness is important. Integrity and honesty are important leadership qualities ⁓ that any leader can benefit regardless of the industry that he or she might be a part of. So I really appreciate what you've had to say about the importance of authenticity. It gets lost far too often, I think, by the noise that we... found ourselves surrounded by at times.
speaker-0: what we think we should be, what others want us to be. there's a core to who we are that we just can't, especially when you're, some of the situations you're talking about when you're in a difficult part of your career where things aren't working. If you don't stay true to yourself, it's like taking somebody else's strategy. People are always like, ⁓ someone took your, I'm like, but they can't execute it. It's not their DNA. That was my DNA. Well, you talk about moving on to a new career, which I think is incredibly exciting, but you're still going to be in the industry with WRMC, which is a new organization, which is trying to attract new talent. Is, is there, I think that's again, a great leader because few people are leaders in one aspect. You're a leader in other areas of your life, whether it's coaching or continuing education or reach outs like you're doing to younger people. Why did you choose, since you're going into education, to still leave one foot in our industry?
speaker-1: Well, I so appreciate, you know, I appreciate the, you know, the question and I have to tell you that I really one feel very fortunate to have been presented with the opportunity to be one of the founding members of, know, WRMC. And this, I don't know that many people know the story, but it was maybe it was two years ago at the NIA convention in New Orleans that a group of us ⁓ got together after dinner. We found ourselves actually in the lobby of the hotel and it was right around midnight. And we were talking about just some of the events of the day at the conference and we were talking about just some of the wonderful takeaways from many of the the wonderful speakers who had presented that day. And we started kind of remarking on how incredibly wonderful this industry has been for each of us. And we started asking, what can we do to help, especially kids who come from... know, socially, economically, you know, distressed situations. What can we do to give them perhaps, you know, a bridge into, you know, our industry? And so we were sitting, we were sitting together, like it says around midnight, New Orleans, and we're talking about opening, you know, a pathway, you know, for, you know, high schoolers. And so there was... five or six of us, and we said that we were gonna stay committed to kind of building out this track work that would create the exposure and provide mentorship and create opportunities for ⁓ individuals to have a pathway into the industry. And so we are not yet fully a year into this effort, but already ⁓ we have, you know, we've, we've talked to literally hundreds of, you know, high schoolers in the Atlanta area and, and we presented the opportunity for many of them to, to apply for the opportunity to, to be, become, you know, students of WRMC and our inaugural class now totals right at 50, you know, kids. That's amazing. the excitement is palpable. There are joys about having the joys that come with being able to see yourself beyond the next day and actually being able to visualize a future where you're... earning a really, really good living, but doing something and doing something that really matters. And that can be, you know, transformative for them, for their families and for their communities. It has been really a beautiful thing to witness and a beautiful thing to be a part of. And so, yes, I'll be stepping away from or leaving, you know, our industry, you know, ⁓ in a manner that I've been a part of our industry for so long. But I'm not going to ever stop being a mentor to so many in the industry. And certainly I'm not going to stop trying to create opportunities for others. And one of the reasons I even decided to go back to school and to pursue my PhD, which I'm preparing to defend at the end of the year, that is my dissertation at the end of the year. is because of my desire to ⁓ help hopefully change the trajectory of young kids who again come particularly from socially, economically distressed environments. There was a Pew study done about 18, 19 years ago and it talked about how by the time most kids, regardless of economics, ⁓ regardless of their economic status, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of gender, by the time most kids reach the age of nine, their trajectory for life has pretty much been determined. And whether that's a trajectory for success or a trajectory for criminality or a trajectory for poverty or something in between, ⁓ you know, with that thought in mind, I've always thought, what if, you know, I had a platform or I had the opportunity to maybe connect with these kids long before they reached that age and potentially change the trajectory and maybe angle it towards a trajectory of success. And then for those kids who are way beyond the age of nine, is there an opportunity where a course correction might be necessary for me to apply some of the learnings from my career ⁓ to make a difference for them as well. So WRMC is so dear to my heart. It's so dear to the founding members. We now have an executive board. I know that all of those board members are so very much committed to making a difference for you know, you know, for kids and changing the dynamics of our industry. And I'll shut up after this, you know, cause you know, you had me talking about something just so really.
speaker-0: No, I love it. I love it. Yeah
speaker-1: But you talk about our industry and I don't have the points of data in front of me, but we do know that every year, because of retirement or because of people just simply changing a course of direction from a career perspective, but we're losing a lot of people from the insurance industry. And here's a perfect opportunity. ⁓ you know, to join others and trying to find a way to re-infuse, you know, our industry, you know, with great talent that's willing and ready to be developed and ready to make a difference, you know, in our insurance industry. And who are so open to the idea of having knowledge transferred into them at the same time. Because we have a lot of folks in the industry, people like... I was going to say people like you and I are much older than you, so let me say that. But we recognize the importance of transferring knowledge as a way of keeping our industry foundationally strong. I know I said a lot there, but...
speaker-0: That's amazing. No, no, that's, fabulous because that's one of the things that I think is missing is I rolled up my sleeves aside alongside many, many leaders who are in all types of positions in our industry, but we put in our blood, sweat and tears to actually make the industry better. And I've seen something, I don't know if it's the pandemic. I don't know if it's just. how technology has come into our lives, but the giving part, I see it smaller and smaller. So it's so exciting. I'm glad you shared it. Maybe it'll inspire some other people. know there are, like Naya, there's so many industry organizations that are getting together like-minded individuals who want to serve the industry. Not just, hey, what can I go to a conference and learn to make myself better? It's truly how are when we leave, whatever stage of the career that we are in, how are we going to leave it where it's sustainable? Because if we don't continue to have that participation like you're talking about and building for the next gen, there won't be one, or it's going to look very, very different. It's actually scary where we are right now. that's amazing and hats off to the board and everyone who had the idea. And I wish you guys all all the success. will definitely keep my eye on you. And perhaps we can get some other board members on to chat about it as it grows.
speaker-1: That would be so very wonderful and I so very much appreciate your words, Jeanette. Thank you.
speaker-0: Well, thank you for your time today. It's just been a great conversation. I know our listeners will glean a lot of lessons out of what you've shared. And I just wish you all the success in your next endeavor.
speaker-1: I so appreciate this, Jeanette. I have to tell you, I didn't know exactly what to expect. ⁓ I've certainly seen many of your podcasts, and ⁓ so I've certainly been engaged by all of them. Hopefully, ⁓ this will prove to be engaging for some as well. But this was really ⁓ a thrill for me. It was an honor to... and be asked to be a part of your podcast as well. And I cannot think of ⁓ a better way, I guess, to kind of exit our industry by being a part of your podcast. So thank you very much for having me, Jeanette.
speaker-0: I love it. We have something that will remain here long after you. It's part of your legacy that you're leaving.
speaker-1: Well, you're very kind. Thank you, Jeanette, and obviously all the best to you as well.
speaker-0: Thank you. ⁓
