Ep. 284 – Making a Good Script Great with Linda Seger

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Stuck in Act two, not sure if that twist actually works,
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or maybe your characters are just fine. That's where Virtual
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Jeffrey comes in. He's a screenwriting assistant we've trained to
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help you workshop scenes, fixed pacing, punch up dialogue, or
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just get on stuck. If you're a member of the
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Successful screen Edder, you've already got access. If not, it
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might be time to level up. All right, welcome to
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the podcast. We have on screenwriting guru and legend Linda Seeger. Linda,
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thanks for being with us.
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Sure lovely to be here.
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Well, before we get started, before we really roll into this,
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I wanted to first thank you for being a trailblazer
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for script consultants. You had done this for over twenty years.
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And if it wasn't for you, people like me wouldn't exist.
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Yes, and it's been actually it was thirty nine years. Wow,
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started in nineteen eighty one.
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Well, absolutely amazing. You've done thousands of consulting. You've consulted
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on some of my favorite films. You've worked with amazing
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directors like Ron Howard.
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No, I didn't work with Ron Howard on a script,
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but he's endorsed my books and he said he has
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used my books on every film starting with Apollo thirteen. Well,
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there you go, so we did have lunch together.
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That's great, or even Ron Howard loves your books. So
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we're going to discuss We're going to discuss the book
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today making a good script great, because this is really
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in the pantheon of screenwriting books that's up there with
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story save the Cat screenplay up there. This book really
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should be in every screenwriter's collection. Before we really kind
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of dive into the book, I always like to get
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people's origin story real quick. So do you think you
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could kind of guide me into like how everything started
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for you?
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Sir well, I came out of theater and I got
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a master's degree. I directed about twenty five plays and
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went to graduate school. And in graduate school I did
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a dissertation for my doctorate on what are the elements
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that make a great script? And when I entered the
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film industry, I saw scripts that weren't great, and so
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I flipped my dissertation into what is missing from one
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the scripts? And then decided when I discovered that Hollywood
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tended to be anti education and the only way I
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could get a job was to sell myself and my
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typing ability. I was a really good typist, and then eventually,
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after a few years, said I wonder if I could
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create a business on this. So I went to a
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career consultant and got it started in nineteen eighty one,
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and then it went full time in nineteen eighty three.
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Absolutely amazing. So you wrote the book, and I was
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going over it the other day again, and you talk
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about the five components of us stories and those of
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these storylines, characters, theme, idea are all wonderful. And then
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you land on something I don't think anybody really talks
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about as much as they should, and that is images, Yes,
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and how a scene builds an image. And I love
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the way you describe it because you really don't find
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it anywhere. I wonder if you could just kind of
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walk us through that a little bit more.
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Well, film is a visual medium, and sometimes people think
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it's a word medium, and so they overwrite dialogue and
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they get very much on the nose. They have a
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message that they hammer away. And in film you can
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do an image very very quickly, so you know, in
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one second you get an image. Yeah, I mean, look
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what's behind me? Is Christmas time?
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Yeah? The book and also the book is right there, and.
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So you immediately get some sense of who I am,
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who character is by both the story and by you know,
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little things around the character that immediately give you a clue.
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So you learn to be a visual thinker, and that
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is something you can learn. I spent two years in
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graduate school doing visual thinking exercises to learn to think
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in images.
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Oh, that's absolutely a brilliant technique for any screenwrinter to
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do is to teach themselves to think visually. And one
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thing you wrote in the book that's always kind of
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sat with me is that the visual mind, that the
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mind can interpret the vision visual way faster than it
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can through dialogue, so it takes longer for the mind
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to understand what the dialogue is going on. And as well,
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especially if there is a voice over in the beginning
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of a film to kind of explain a world. You
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mentioned how well you should just be showing the world
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with minimum dialogue, and I think that is just great advice.
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Yeah, many times the idea is to start your movie
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with an image that immediately brings us into it. Now,
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these can become the cloche you know, Paris Eiffel Tower, right,
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and you might decide to try something a little different,
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but you want that immediate sense of now I know
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where I am, I'm oriented, and you don't have to
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talk about it, right. Voiceovers tend to do that a lot. Generally,
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don't like them. I think they're a crutch, but there
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are times that they are very effective. And so that's
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one of the things you learn is when do I
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use that and when do I just really think through
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my images more directly.
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I love this idea. One thing I always think about
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when it comes to voiceover, and you actually mentioned this
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in the book. I thought it is great. Was you
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know you're establishing that world and if you have to
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use voiceover, and you use the example of Lord of
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the Rings, and I thought that was brilliant because in
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Lord of the Rings they introduce you through a foreign language,
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and you go so right away you already know you're
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in a whole different world, in a whole different land
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with the new language. And I'm like, I didn't even
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interpret that watching the film, but now see you analyze
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it that way, it makes total sense. So one thing
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I have an issue with when I deal with my
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own clients is rewriting. And you're obviously a master of rewrites.
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When I have to work with a client who's rewriting
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a script, one of the biggest things I find is
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that the script kind of goes nowhere in what I've
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ended up calling a series of scenes because I couldn't
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come up with a new I couldn't find a term
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for it. But basically it's the scenes are nonsensical. There
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are just a bunch of random scenes put together and
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then there's an ending. And I wonder if that is
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something you've ever had to deal with.
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That's why in making a good script grade I talk
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about scene sequences, and I think I might be the
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only person who's really talking about this. That you think
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of scenes is action reaction, action reaction, and so you
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get to get the scenes put together, and they often
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are put together with the beginning and end. Particularly these
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scene sequence is like a car chase. You can create
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that car chase in three acts. You know, they turn
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a corner and now the police are there after them,
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whereas they were on their own and act one of
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the scene sequences. And actually Ron Howard said that is
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one of the things that he got out of making
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a good script that he has used in so many
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of his films. As you think of the sequence of scenes,
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not the episodes, because it's really easy to fall into
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arbitrary episodes. Pretty soon everything is in there and you're
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looking at the cohesive hole sort of what's the magnet
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that holds the scenes together? Why is that scene there?
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Why is it important? If you could take it out
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and you don't need it, then you may as well
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take it out.
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Right, just cut it. So you're looking at doing a
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scene and giving a scene a beginning, a middle, and
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an end, basically like a three X structure within the
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scene itself.
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Yeah, you're often not all you know, not always. I
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mean some scenes that are just there to transition or
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to the story. But the sequence of scenes, say it's
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a series of scenes in different locations that are all
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connected and have a beginning, middle, and end leading to
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a climax.
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Yeah, that's next level. It's brilliant. So one thing I
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have found working with with these scripts that kind of
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kind of aren't going anywhere is what I found as
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a lack of theme and that the writer has a
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great concept, They have a great idea of what they
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want it to be about, but they don't know what
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the theme is, so they don't know what they're trying
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to say with it, and I know theme is exceptionally
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important in your model. I was wondering what you have
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to what your thoughts are on that.
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Well. I got very interested in theme because when I
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was in college, I got interested in value systems, and
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I said, what are we trying to communicate in drama?
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Whe are we saying about the human condition, about what's
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important in life? What's the meaning of life? And how
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do we say it without giving a sermon or a lecture.
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So I began to think about what are the important
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themes and ideas that we see over and over again.
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One of the most important in film is the theme
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of identity. Just who am I? Who am I becoming?
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Who am I transforming into? Am I becoming a more
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committed person, a more truthful person, a person of integrity?
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Am I standing up for my integrity? And I began
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to see about ninety percent of all movies have something
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to say about identity. So if you start there, you say, well,
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what is this movie saying or what's my script saying
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about identity? And then you can get much more specific
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about what it is. But I went to part of
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my graduate school was seminary. So my doctorate is actually
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in drama and theology at a seminary which is one
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of the few in the world world that has a
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religion amazing in Berkeley in the seventies, and I went
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to seminary because I couldn't find what I was trying
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to find about exploring this idea by continuing a Mayan
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dramas from Northwestern and I thought, well, I'm interested in theology,
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Let's see if seminary would help. And I found a
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brilliant my major professor was brilliant and how he approached this.
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I didn't want to approach it through religious drama. I
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wanted to approach it through drama, secular drama that communicated
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values without hammering. I was not interested in converting people.
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I was interested in exploring and expressing the human condition.
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I've been just blown away by that because it makes
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total sense to me. The I've interviewed a lot of people,
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and I found that the great screenwriters, they are fascinated
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in the human experience. So the fact that you went
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to theology or mastered in theology, it makes total sense
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to me. I find screen ardors that go the next level.
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They are deep into psychology. They want to know how
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people work. They want to know why people do the
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things they do, and I think they express it through
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their work partly because they're trying to figure it out themselves.
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Well. And it's I will say, masters and doctorate and
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drama and theology is the least marketable degree you could
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ever get. No one is going to hire you with that.
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So the only way I could get a job was
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I had to take all my degrees except my BA
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in English off my resume. Really yes, and no college
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or university would hire me. One of the problems was
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there are stereotypes about both of these, so religious people
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thought I must be outrageous because of that drama party.
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Drama people thought I must be rigid because of the
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religious part. No one even wanted to interview me. And
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in a way, by following that path that I got
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so interested in, I was following a path where clearly
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my career was going to have to follow a path
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that was really unusual. I was going to have to
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create myself because it didn't fit any place. You know,
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it's hard to create something new that people say I
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don't need it. I'd never come to you anyway, And
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That's why I found this terrific career consultant and I said,
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how do we do this? She said, okay, it's we
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have a five month plan and it worked.
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That's amazing. Well, I mean, great screenwriters are seekers. I
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really believe this, and you're living proof of that. And
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then you were able to take all this knowledge you've
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learned and put an into a brilliant book and make
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that available for everybody, which is something that screenwriters that
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are able to reach that level need to be doing
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to really help the community. I think it's absolutely wonderful.
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One thing I have found with scripts that are struggling
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is that there's a lack of a central question, as
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you call it, And I love the way you put that,
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Like what is the what are we trying to say?
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And that's such a question is different than the theme.
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Would you say that the central question is influenced by
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the theme.
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Yes, but it's probably more related by story. And I
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learned this idea I took a film directing class many
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many years ago, and not because I wanted to be
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a director, but because I was trying to really understand
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how film is put together. To make me a better
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script consultant. And this person who I don't remember his
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name because it was forty years ago, talked about the
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center question. He said, it's the question you ask at
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the beginning of a story, and the story answers it.
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So will the detective get the criminal who committed this crime?
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Go ya?
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The end is yes, Well, now we're going to follow,
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and it helps you stay on track and you keep
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you know, you move down, you say, Okay, how is
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he going to do it? And the how is the
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second act? Or will the woman find the love of
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her life? Will they actually move Italy and decide to
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accept the mansion that they've inherited, whatever that story is,
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because it's so easy when you write to start going
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all over the place. So the center question as well
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as the theme they have a relationship, But the center
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question is more about the story beats and the plot.
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That makes sense, and so it's more implied. You don't
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actually have characters stating what their central question is, correct.
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But most of the time you don't. Sometimes you do
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have somebody saying, I'm I'm going to go for that
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boxing match and I'm going to win it, okay, And
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so sometimes they will, and so in your mind you're saying,
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will this character win the boxing match?
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Right?
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The answer is well, yes, or or at least he'll.
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Tie, right exactly, But it's not a hard fast rule
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that they need to state at all. Right, that's good.
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Let's talk about subplots because I'm a bit of a
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subplot guy myself actually wrote a book that has subplots,
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and I show where they intermingle with the main plot.
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And I love that you cover subplots as well, because
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no one else talks about it.
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That's true. I haven't seen very many people talk about subplots.
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No, they don't. And so I talk about three different subplots.
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You're supporting subplot, the heart plot, and the antagonist as
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a subplot. So I want to know when did you
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stumble on subplots because you don't really find it anywhere,
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and how did you kind of start realizing this is
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what scripts need.
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So, I mean, that's such an interesting question because I think, hmm,
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I don't really know now. Maybe because of all that
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background and theater, I might have thought of that, but
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I'm more conscious about having developed it early on. And
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I think maybe when I really began consulting and began
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breaking down because the method I used was actually was
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like a graph, and I color coded all the plot lines.
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Really. Yeah, that's a good idea.
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Yeah. I developed this method so you visually could see
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what that script looked like. You could, you know, lay
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out of the last posed script, and I had little
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marks for conflict points and momentum, and I had all
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these different color codes, which sometimes people would look and say,
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are you kidding, And then they looked more carefully, they said,
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that really helps me understand My green dropped out for
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fifty pages. Yeah, the green was your subplot story. And
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I think it was this method of color coding that
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made me aware of how these storylines intersect and were
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they were they they built, and how they were structured.
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So by the time I wrote Making a Good Script Great,
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which was about nineteen eighty seven I was writing it,
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I had really worked a.
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Lot with that developed it. Yeah. One thing I find
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when I get scripts from clients is they'll be really light,
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so they'll come in maybe seventy pages, maybe sixty pages.
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And that's when I started realizing, because it's all main plot,
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it's all a plots, and I started thinking, Okay, we
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need to start bringing in subplots. And then I started going, Okay,
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what are subplots? Yes, and start figuring it out. And
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I think that is one thing is that that writers
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can get lost on just trying to tell the main story,
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and they don't realize that you can use the subplots
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as ways to support the theme or even be like
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an antithesis to the theme, right.
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Because I see, the plot is the direction and the
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subplots are the dimension, but they also have to influence
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and relate to the plot line. I had a rather
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famous client many years ago, had written one of those
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films that everybody knows, and she came to me because
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she was so stuck, and I said, you're so overburdened
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with subplots. You don't have that directional story. She did
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not want to hear that. She said, most interested in subplots,
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and I said, yes, most writers are because they're more dimensional,
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but without that forward motion. And one of the movies
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I sometimes uses an example a stand by Me, Right,
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if they were not searching for the dead body, which
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is your directional story, all you'd have is boys wandering
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around in the woods. So even if that directional story
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is less screen time than the dimensional stories, you don't
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want to lose it, you just keep going. It's like
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the Titanic better crash, because if there's not something you otherwise,
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you're just done a cruise to New York. And yeah,
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is a no big thing. And if you notice, you
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know that this crash is actually happening in act to
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I think it's at the midpoint in that case. But
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you have a lot of things layered in about this
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ship is unsinkable and is this great? And of course
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we all know the Titanic story, and you know, we
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know when you see this. My cousin was one standing
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in line for a movie and she didn't realize that
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James Cameron, who did Titanic, was behind her, and they
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really talking and something came up about the Titanic, and
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Miriam said, Tom, I don't know, i'd want to go
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see that. I know the ending that I will can
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behind me.
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That's hysterical. That's great, all right. So with subplots, one
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one thing I found is it's a great way to
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develop inder character relationships, of course, but also a way
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to reveal more layers and depth of your central character.
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Yes, yes, and even you're sometimes your other more supporting
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characters who might be carrying the theme even more than
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your central character.
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Yeah, so there's there's just so much deputy to these
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supporting characters. Now, you had mentioned midpoint, and the really
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interesting thing in your book, because I had never seen
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this before, is that you're not sold that every script
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has a midpoint. Correct.
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I have looked for it and some of what I
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consider really great films and I don't always see it.
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This concept came from Sidfield, and the way he used
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it was he divided the whole script in half. What
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I The way I used it was I divided the
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second half in second act in half. So usually there's
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a different dynamic. The first half might be lots and
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lots of trouble then it gets from or lots of
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smooth and it gets trouble. And that's one easy way.
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To like an A in an act too B type
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of a thing.
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Yes, and I found it more helpful for writers to
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divide it that way because that second act is get
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so unweelly that using that midpoint. But I have felt
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like one of my favorite films is Witness, I can't
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tell you what the midpoint is, and I know that
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film really well. I knew Bill Kelly, who died some
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years ago, and I know Pamela Wallace and just can't
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find And sometimes people say to me, why do you
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love that film so much? Besides the fact it's exceptionally
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it's probably one of.
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The best witness Yes, but my husband.
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Proposed to me in the middle of the barn raising scene.
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Of course I love yeah, of Courbis.
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The middle of it. You know, it turns over well
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when we get married. It had ever been when it
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was always yeah, it was to win, so so oh good.
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It's very special. But I had gotten to know Bill
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a bit and then later Pamela and Bill was quite
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a character and a character in himself, and I really
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liked him. It's not like we're close friends, but we
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did occasionally have lunches together.
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So wow. Well, I mean it's it's an interesting take
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to split in and a half. I have to agree
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with you. I found most writers I've worked with that
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haven't really utilized subplots properly. They crash at like page
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forty five in a script. They get like midact two
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and then it just spirals because because I think act
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two is the make or break on whether or not
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you've developed your script or not. If you've developed it,
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enough you can get through it.
400
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Yeah, And that's the hardest thing for writers. You got
401
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.559
to keep going and say, I have to keep this
402
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act going twice as long as my Act one or
403
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act three. Often act three is the easiest because you're
404
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moving toward a culmination, and you know what that point
405
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is act two as you start to dally, I have
406
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:16.240
this thing, don't deally, definitely do not DEALI in act three,
407
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and that's where the midpoint can be very helpful because
408
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you have a half way mark. You're right, you know.
409
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It's like going from Los Angeles to Chicago and you
410
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hit Omaha.
411
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Yeah, over here in Detria, it's like trying to drive
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through It's like trying to drive through Ohio. It's just
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Ohio never ends. Yes, And I believe that anybody can
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write and act one, like act one is the easiest.
415
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It's the most fun because you're discovering the characters and
416
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establishing the world. But then after act one, that's when
417
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when being a screenwriter really hits you. I totally agree.
418
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Like act three, it almost writes itself. Sometimes, yes, yeah, you.
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Know where you're going.
420
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Yeah, you just have to get there.
421
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But sometimes people get there too fast, so you need
422
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about that eighteen or twenty pages for act three needs
423
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to you know, I mean, if you're there in two minutes,
424
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that's no fun, right, You've got to get them in
425
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the motel and the gun's coming, and then they please
426
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come from all directions, and then there's a problem.
427
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Yeah, you know, Well, let's talk about pacing then, because
428
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I think a lot of scripts suffer from a deficiency
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in pacing. They'll take too long setting it up. They
430
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won't have the characters being active. The characters will be
431
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reactive to the story, so the story's kind of happening
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around them.
433
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What do you think, Well, that's where structure really helps you. So,
434
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even though I don't believe in hard and fast rules,
435
00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:47.799
although it's not a bad idea for new writers to
436
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really learn the rules and some of what we call
437
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:56.240
the rules. You know, So, you generally have about fifteen
438
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pages to set up your story and to get to
439
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the catalyst. This is what I call it, that moment
440
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:04.960
that really moves you from the context of the story,
441
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and you want to get to your first turning point
442
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around thirty minutes. In thirty pages. You want your third
443
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act to be about twenty pages long, and you can
444
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start going in there and saying, oh, I see, I'm
445
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not developing this enough, or I'm just wandering. And that's
446
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where a script consult and helps so much because that objective,
447
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professional eye helps you see, oh, wait, this you can extend.
448
00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:35.799
Look at you imply a lot of interesting things. You're
449
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:39.920
just not playing them out or you're overplaying them. Now,
450
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:42.359
look what if we were to cut these three pages.
451
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:44.839
Look how that moves so much better.
452
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I love that. I always preached to because, especially in
453
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today's audience, attention spans have shrunk, have decreased. I can
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say it's safe to say so now I say keep
455
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it three pages or less. With a scene, I think, yeah, most.
456
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Of the time, I think that's a good it's a
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good kind of a guide. And sometimes a scene moves
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and you say, well, I have three pages when people
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enter the party, and then I have, you know, some
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pages when they're going around meeting people, and then I
461
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have the end of the party. So you might have
462
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more than that, but maybe you only have two or
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three pages in one location as people move from.
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Right, I think of that sequence of scenes.
465
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Yeah, and also what you're talking about, there's a lot
466
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to learn about screenwriting there's a tendency to think, oh,
467
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it just kind of rolls off.
468
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:42.319
You know, anybody can do it, all right, Yeah.
469
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Like ballet is to say you just get up there
470
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and fly through the air, Like, no, you don't. And
471
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every art form has preparation and learning and knowledge, and
472
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the more you know, the more you can pull from
473
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in order to solve the problems that are part of
474
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the artistic processes. What's my problem I have to fix
475
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or solve here, let me think about it. I got
476
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:09.960
lots of stuff. I can remember past movies, I can
477
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.440
remember what I learned in a book. Oh yeah, you know,
478
00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:17.680
you're pulling from various areas to solve this problem. And
479
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:21.000
I think we need to take that seriously. That's why
480
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:24.240
there's books and seminars and screenplays.
481
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Who yeah, in consultants. I mean, I mean, what we
482
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do we problem solve. And I think one of the
483
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:35.839
maybe issues of why anybody thinks they can do it
484
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:38.559
is I think screenwriting software, as much as it is
485
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.200
a blessing, can be a bit of a curse because
486
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.519
anybody can sit down right and write a screenplay. So
487
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.480
they think, okay, well, what do you know. Well, I mean,
488
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:52.759
you've got thirty plus years in the industry, right, Yeah,
489
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.359
you pay more for the experience.
490
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:57.920
And you learn a lot. I mean, even through the years,
491
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:01.680
I learned a lot by watching films that were doing
492
00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:05.599
something I hadn't seen before, and whether that was pulp
493
00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:10.640
fiction or Crash or some of these really unusual films
494
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.079
and what are they what are they doing and how
495
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:16.119
did they make that work? And I don't know if
496
00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:18.640
you know that I have. I now have what's called
497
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:22.279
Saga Notes. Remember the cliff notes, of the cliff notes
498
00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:25.079
that we all use in college and high school. Okay,
499
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:28.720
these are Saga Notes, And every month I take another
500
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:33.960
great film and there are four thousand to five thousand works,
501
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.559
so they're like an article you can do in one city.
502
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:42.000
So I just finished the seventh one for twenty twenty.
503
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.839
And if you just look up Saga Notes, they're published
504
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.519
by a company called twice five. I think at ten,
505
00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:52.599
but then say twice five Pomposters. And one of the
506
00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:56.799
people is John Houston's daughter, Allegra. Okay, you know, not Angela,
507
00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:01.119
but Allegra. And so we've just had a lovely relationship.
508
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.480
We started these in June, and I just finished the
509
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:06.200
last one for this.
510
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:08.720
Year the break in films.
511
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:13.880
Yeah, I've done I've done Jojo Rabbit and I loved Classics.
512
00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:16.880
I did African Queen and some like it hot. Then
513
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:19.480
I did Tutsi because I wanted to put those two
514
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:24.759
together and see their relationship cool. And I just finished Crash,
515
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:28.000
I did Green Book, and you know, and so I've
516
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:31.880
looked and each of them deals with something that is
517
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:35.640
helpful for the writer to learn. So some of them
518
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.279
deal more with themes, some of them do more structure.
519
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:41.720
Are these these are books that are there?
520
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:46.519
They're they're articles, very cheap five dollars each. There's going
521
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:48.960
to be certain discounts if you buy all seven or
522
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:53.759
all Oh that's whatever. But there really were this idea
523
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:58.480
I've had for many years of doing like the cliff notes,
524
00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:01.960
but doing them on film. And I'm hoping they're going
525
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:05.039
to be used in screenwriting classes but as well as
526
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:09.200
by screenwriters and people sometimes people just interested in the
527
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:12.480
film to say, yeah, that was my favorite film. So there.
528
00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:16.759
They've been been fun for me to do, and more,
529
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:21.559
you know, they're more handleable than doing a whole book.
530
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:23.839
So I think it's I think that's well one. I
531
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:25.599
can't wait to read them because I'm a geek about
532
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:29.119
this stuff. But you know, I preach to writers be
533
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.839
the forever student, because this is a lifelong craft in
534
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.880
an art. This is something that you dedicate your life to.
535
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.440
This isn't just something that you you know, write a
536
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:40.599
script real quick and then you're done. I mean, you've
537
00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.400
you've been doing this for a long time, and I
538
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:46.160
still see the passion that you have for it, and
539
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:48.519
I still see the fact that you, I mean, you're
540
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.880
a master at this, a legend. You've got over nine books.
541
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.359
Ten on screenwriting and then if you and then six
542
00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:59.160
on spirituality, and then additions, so it comes out to
543
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.359
twenty five a few count all the edition.
544
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:05.160
I'm behind the times, I apologize. And you're still passionate
545
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:08.079
about this. You're still putting out articles on screenwriting, books
546
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:11.799
on screenwriting, and that's what it needs in yourself to
547
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:13.920
be great at it. And I just like, you're such
548
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:16.519
an inspiration, Linda. Thank you so much, well.
549
00:31:16.359 --> 00:31:19.640
Thank you, and I'm so glad that there are people
550
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:22.920
like you out there who are continuing to consult because
551
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:25.720
it was a job I created and I said, I
552
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:29.720
hope this job keeps going. Script consulting it's a very
553
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.799
important job, and there was a lot of resistance when
554
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:38.359
I started the business and the career. Yeah, it's very
555
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.519
different now than it was in the nineteen eighties.
556
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:48.519
I try and really bring a mentorship capacity to the consulting. Well,
557
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.079
it's not for me. It's not just how do I
558
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:53.000
make the project better, because I always want to add
559
00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:54.920
value to a project, but how do I help you
560
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:58.200
as a writer as well? Because I find that's one
561
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.079
of the things I can really do, because there's consultants
562
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.839
out there that just you know, they're not qualified. It's
563
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:06.279
and they call themselves one. But I always want to
564
00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:09.200
try and honor what we do because it is so
565
00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:12.559
important because you hold influence on someone, and if you're
566
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:14.759
going to hold a kind of an influence, you want
567
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.200
to make sure you're doing it and at least from
568
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:19.599
my perspective, the most benevolent way possible.
569
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:24.000
Yeah, I say we nurture creativity and that we are
570
00:32:24.039 --> 00:32:29.920
there to be a professional objective. I do because writers
571
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:33.319
get too close. They're too is some affective, and also
572
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:37.000
because we have learned a lot that the first time,
573
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:41.599
even somebody who's written ten scripts might not know, like
574
00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:44.720
here's the concept that's going to help you through this problem.
575
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:48.680
You're encountering an act too, And they say, oh yeah,
576
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:54.279
And I started doing this. I volunteered to help somebody
577
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:56.640
I met who said, I've spent five years I don't
578
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.240
know what's wrong with my script. Oh, I said, let me.
579
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:05.680
Let me try taking my doctoral dissertation graphic analysis, you know,
580
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:09.759
way of analyzing your script, and let's see if I
581
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:13.599
could figure it out. And when we sat down together,
582
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:16.440
he says, I can't believe this. He said, in one hour,
583
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.559
I know exactly what to do with my script after
584
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:22.400
five years. And I mean that's when I started my business.
585
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:25.240
That's such a good feeling. And I kind of, you know,
586
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:29.200
have similar stories that were being able to help somebody
587
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:31.319
who's really stuck and you kind of get them to
588
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:34.359
that next level. It's amazing. I love that you mentioned
589
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:38.480
objective because I think that gets lost in a lot
590
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:40.559
of in the consulting business. I hate to say it
591
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:43.400
that way, but there aren't consultants out out there that
592
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.079
aren't as I can say, qualified, and they'll use what
593
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:51.920
I call that. I feel notes, well, yeah, I feel that.
594
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.079
And I always say I don't care how you feel,
595
00:33:55.880 --> 00:33:57.240
tell me not an opinion.
596
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:00.240
We're not here to trade emotions, and I'm not here
597
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:03.000
to say this is the greatest script. It's going to
598
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:05.759
it's going to just make loads of money. I'm sure
599
00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:09.039
it will sell. As I say, I'm here to help
600
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:13.480
you have a better script and to work a great
601
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:17.920
deal on the craft, as well as to encourage your.
602
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:21.480
Art I totally agree. I always kind of equate it
603
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:25.360
to like being a blacksmith. Blacksmiths were incredible craftsmen. They
604
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:28.239
worked on the project and they still had that artistic,
605
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:31.679
you know, motif about them. So all right, so let's
606
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.280
talk about because we had mentioned scenes earlier, and one
607
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:36.760
thing about making a good script great the book is
608
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:40.199
scenes and structuring scenes. There's a lot of weight on there.
609
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:43.760
And one thing I love is to kind of come
610
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.880
in late to a scene and to leave early is
611
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:49.719
a great way to kind of cut out that fat
612
00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:51.480
from a scene. And I was one like, what kind
613
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:52.679
of tips do you have for that?
614
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.679
Yeah, Well, one is to deal not to deli and
615
00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:59.679
to know where you are heading with the scene. There
616
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:02.920
are scenes you know that you're going to develop into
617
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:06.440
a three act structure, and I often use the example
618
00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:09.400
if you go back to witness the murder. Scene of
619
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.360
the boy witnessing the murder is a perfect three act structure.
620
00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:17.559
The music helps clarify which, of course, the director is doing,
621
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:22.119
but also the action is very very clear and very
622
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:26.199
well structured. Looking at great scenes is a good way
623
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:29.559
to learn. And then using a book, like if you
624
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.280
take making a good script rate and I talk about
625
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:35.480
certain movies, then go look at the movie and say, Okay,
626
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:39.760
here's the book and here's I see. Okay, I get it.
627
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:42.760
I'm learning this concept and you know how it works.
628
00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:47.480
So you're you're shaping. I mean a lot of what
629
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:50.159
you do as a writer is you shape. You shape
630
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.639
the whole thing. You shape the scenes, You shape the
631
00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:57.079
scenes sequences. I mean, that's what art as a whole
632
00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:58.400
is is shaping.
633
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:02.400
And that's just through multiple rewrites. And when I do
634
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:06.760
a rewrite, I will do a specific technique like this,
635
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.960
like I'll say this rewrite, I'm going to go through
636
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:11.039
the entire script and just make sure the theme is there.
637
00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:13.039
And then another rewrite I'm going to go through and
638
00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:16.000
make sure that there's subtext in the dialogue. Is there
639
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:19.519
kind of a system that you recommend for when you
640
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:21.159
get into the rewrite process.
641
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:24.239
I think that's a really good way of doing it.
642
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:27.119
And you mean you might go through the whole script
643
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:29.519
and if you've had a script consultant says, take out
644
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:32.000
this same take out this scene. As take them out,
645
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:35.840
I mean leave them in another leave them in another
646
00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:38.920
file so you can grab them again if you need to.
647
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.719
But just follow and say, okay, let's let's get some
648
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:45.920
of the cutting. I call it creating a vacuum so
649
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:50.239
your creative process can come in and fill in. And
650
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.880
so you might actually want to say, I'm going to
651
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:56.039
do a rewrite today where I'm just going to follow
652
00:36:56.440 --> 00:36:59.199
my main character. Now it might take you a few
653
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:02.960
days actually follow look at all of that, and now
654
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.039
I'm going to do a rewrite where I follow my
655
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.480
main supporting. Now I'm going to do a rewrite just
656
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:11.000
on the love story, and so you take it apart.
657
00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.519
I had a client, really very experienced, very good client
658
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:17.599
come one time and she had the script was optioned,
659
00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:20.920
and so we did that rewrite it and it took
660
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:25.039
about three days to follow all the strands and say
661
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:28.679
we need another line here that's going to relate to
662
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:32.199
that subplot here. I think we're hitting it too hard.
663
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:36.440
I think the image told us let's take that out.
664
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:40.320
So it's almost like it's almost like a technical rewrite,
665
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:44.880
meaning you don't have to be overly creative. You're evaluating
666
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:48.960
and assessing as opposed to making it up and letting
667
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:51.920
it flow, and so you're always going back and forth
668
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:53.159
between those.
669
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:57.639
That's all right, very good. I just know it's awesome,
670
00:37:57.639 --> 00:37:59.920
all right. Last thing, so because you had just said
671
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:05.079
and then I'm I'm gonna leave, I feel bad.
672
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:07.079
We're having much too much fun.
673
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.679
I do, Linda. I love this, the fact that that
674
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:14.039
I can get someone like yourself for like twenty minutes.
675
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:18.880
So emotional shifts in a scene is something that you
676
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.639
talk about, and I think that's really important. I've had
677
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.079
clients come in and they'll say to me, look how
678
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:27.079
much conflict is in the script. And then I'll read
679
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.159
the script and it's ninety pages of two people yelling
680
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:32.840
at each other the entire time, you know what I mean,
681
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:35.679
And I'm like, there's no this is like one note.
682
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:39.159
So could you just discuss like shifting emotion within a
683
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:41.400
scene and how that kind of keeps an audience.
684
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:43.840
Well, one thing is to make sure the scene has
685
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:48.559
emotion okay. And one of my actually my cousin, who
686
00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:54.119
had been to a therapist, said, there's the emotions of mad, mad, hair,
687
00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:56.400
and hurt.
688
00:38:56.840 --> 00:38:57.119
Okay.
689
00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:59.480
Those are the ones that she said. And I said,
690
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:02.079
of course, each one of those. You know, depending how
691
00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:06.719
mad are you are, you mildly irritated and rage, and
692
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:09.960
so the more you can be aware of the shades
693
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:12.760
of the emotion. And it's the same thing with an actor.
694
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:16.599
I mean, a great director often says to the actor,
695
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:20.800
just keep it, keep it closed, you know, just just
696
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.920
give us a little maybe a movement of the lips
697
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:27.719
or you know, Anthony Hopkins always he can just take
698
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.679
this little muscle here in the full the whole world
699
00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:35.480
of I'm a little scared right now, and so you
700
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:38.960
want and if you find you're hitting it too hard,
701
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.320
that's a rewrite. Say I'm going to look at all
702
00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:43.599
my angry scenes and I'm going to see if I
703
00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:46.480
can get different dimensions. You know, that might be what
704
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:51.519
you rewrite is about. And we all have strengths and weaknesses.
705
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:55.440
We want to write toward our strengths and keep working
706
00:39:55.480 --> 00:39:59.840
on our weaknesses and being aware of when we overduce
707
00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:03.760
thing and say, oh I have a tendency too. I mean,
708
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:08.159
I write nonfiction books, and one of my tendencies about
709
00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:12.039
six books ago, I started bringing in personal stories at
710
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:15.920
times to illustrate a point. Now what can happen? And
711
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:19.800
sam in seminars, I can overdo that, And so one
712
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:22.840
of the things I do after I've laid oulco whole
713
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.000
book is I look at them and say, did I
714
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:28.760
overdo it? And I always have readers giving me feedback,
715
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:32.360
and sometimes they'll say, don't you dare take up that
716
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:36.000
story about Atlanta and the woman who had seven bourbons
717
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:39.719
from Atlanta to Los Angeles, And so you will if
718
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.280
you read the new book. Now you're talking to me
719
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:45.679
write how to write great dialogue? And because I co
720
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:48.599
wrote that book, one of the things I told my
721
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:51.320
co writer John Winston Rati, I said, if I have
722
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:54.360
a personal story, I said, you have to do a
723
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:56.360
couple of them. And he says, I don't like doing
724
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.760
personal stories. And I said, John, you have to, and
725
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:02.360
he have great stories in there. I said, this is
726
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.519
a great story. Don't be afraid of being a little personal.
727
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:10.480
And people feel kind of warmer about your book, right.
728
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:14.239
You reveal a little bit about the writer behind the book.
729
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.840
But you've got to keep it balanced. And I mean
730
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:22.599
I got my own things. I either overdo or underdo something. Yeah,
731
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:28.599
and John loved to use big words, and I would say,
732
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.840
you cannot send the reader to the dictionary. And finally
733
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:34.719
I said, look, you can have one big word in
734
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:37.639
this whole book that they might not know, but which
735
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:39.559
is a great word. But I said no more than
736
00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:43.119
I says really, so we agree you would have one
737
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:44.320
really big.
738
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:46.079
That's a great note. That's a great note. It's a
739
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:48.119
great note for screenwriting as well. You don't need you
740
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:52.039
don't need five dollar words. As we've said. I mentioned
741
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:54.599
that with Alex Ferrari even when I was on his show.
742
00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:56.719
It's very true, all right, And I love the fact
743
00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:58.960
that you can talk about it doesn't just have to
744
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.800
be someone going from I had to sad to happiness scene.
745
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:06.079
It could be the acceleration of someone who's frustrated growing
746
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:08.960
into more angry, grain to an outburst, and then the
747
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:13.320
coming down from that could be a really fascinating emotional journey.
748
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.760
That's wonderful. So I know you have a new book
749
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.119
out right, Yes, all right, what is.
750
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:22.239
The talking to me? Which of course is a line
751
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:25.480
from taxi driver how to write great dialogue, and I
752
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:29.360
co wrote it with this very experienced screenwriter named Jossinini.
753
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:35.960
And because I had written a book called Writing subtax yeah,
754
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:39.119
I really want to write a book on dialogue. But
755
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:42.800
as a script consultant, it felt to me like I
756
00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:45.920
really needed to write it with a screenwriter. And I
757
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:49.920
spent about eight years keeping my ears open. I thought,
758
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.960
this is not something where I'm interviewing people for this job.
759
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:57.760
I just have to meet somebody or know somebody that
760
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.440
was the right person. And one of the things we
761
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.400
did this book that I think is such fun. At
762
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:06.719
the end of every chapter and there's chapters on you know,
763
00:43:06.760 --> 00:43:10.800
working with animals and aliens as chapters in dialogue like this,
764
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:14.960
chapters on theme. We took a you know, half a
765
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.199
page to page from a client screenplay with their permission,
766
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:23.239
without their name, that had the problem that was just
767
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:28.719
discussed in the book. Cool, and then I analyzed what
768
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:32.440
was going on in their script that needed to be addressed,
769
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:34.440
and then John rewrote it.
770
00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:36.559
That's date. So you see the process happen.
771
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:40.039
Yes, And one one of them that was really good
772
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:45.000
was was a little section from a medieval you know
773
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:50.679
movie and it was so flat and repetitive. John turned
774
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:54.519
it into a Monty Python kind of medieval and it
775
00:43:54.800 --> 00:44:00.719
is so funny. It's just hilarious. So there's there's great examples,
776
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:04.119
of course, then those examples from really great scripts, plus
777
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:08.679
talking about the concepts of writing dialogue, things last chapters
778
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:12.719
called red flags, things not oh yeah, like please don't
779
00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:17.639
say yes, I see yes one more time in a screen.
780
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:20.480
Flag, there is a filler dialogue is what I like
781
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:23.119
to call it, where it's just it's a wasted line.
782
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:27.360
I think that's that's great. I always find that dialogue
783
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:30.000
is one of the last things a screenwriter can really
784
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:33.639
start to master. So having a book dedicated on it
785
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:38.159
is absolutely fantastic, because every line in a script matters,
786
00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:41.519
no matter if it is a descriptive action or the dialogue.
787
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:45.000
Yes, yeah, it does. And I think we've covered There's
788
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:47.800
very few books on dialogue out there, there are, and
789
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:50.400
I think we covered a lot of things that no
790
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:53.280
other book talks about. And I think we did it
791
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:55.480
in a sort of a different way. Plus I think
792
00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:58.800
it's entertaining. There's some there's some good stories in there too.
793
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:00.800
I mean, I can't wait to read. I'm gonna definitely
794
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:03.800
check it out. Linda, thank you so much for being
795
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.199
on this show. You are a treasure.
796
00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:09.239
Thank you so much. It's been great, fun, good. Thanks.
797
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.559
Hey. If this episode helped you out, share it with
798
00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:14.960
a writer who needs it, and if you haven't yet,
799
00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:18.719
follow and leave a quick rating. It helps more screenwriters
800
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:21.880
like you find the show. Finally, you can also connect
801
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:26.079
with me on Instagram at screenwriter Pod. Thanks again for listening,
802
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:26.880
Keep writing,