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Hello and welcome to the Restless Politics with me, Rory Stewart.
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And me, Alistair Campbell.
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We're recording this on Tuesday afternoon, the day after our
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emergency Liz Truss victory pod. Today's episode, we'll talk a
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little bit more about the Prime Minister, cover some stories
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from abroad too. We're going to start though with obviously
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the thing that's on every listener's mind, which is Alistair,
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did you really go for a swim in the Lido
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instead of watching Boris Johnson's leaving speech this morning? Because
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that's not great preparation for today's podcast.
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I went to the Lido at seven. I was in
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the water at 7.01. I was out of the water
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at 7.25 and I listened to Boris Johnson on Radio
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5 Live as I walked home. Is that okay? And
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that was enough for me to realize that he left
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office exactly as he entered office, as a liar and
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a fantasist, talking about this amazing country that he transformed
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as he is there. And without a hint of humility
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or fortrition, in any sense that he was anything other
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than a wonderful figure who would go down in British
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history as one of our great leaders and then off
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he toddled to Balmoral to resign.
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And many people will sort of believe that, won't they?
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Had this line that, of course, troubles me a lot,
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which he says he's heading off like Cincinnatus to his plough.
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And the point about Cincinnatus is Cincinnatus is a Roman plough. Exactly.
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Roman politician who sets off his plan and gets summoned
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back to save the country.
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And became a dictator, didn't he?
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Oh, I think he was an emergency dictator. Yeah, that's good.
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That was classic, wasn't it? That was totally thrown out
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there to have people telling that story. And then if
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he's asked about it, he'll say, well, no, no, it
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was just a joke, just a joke, whatever.
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Yeah.
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No, if I was Liz Truss, I'd be worried about
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Johnson's intentions. And I think William Hague was right when
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we talked to him recently when he said Johnson's friends
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should tell him in no uncertain terms he should stay out.
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But he won't. He's incapable of being anything other than
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the centre of attention.
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Speaking of William Hague, good article in The Times today
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points out we've had six foreign secretaries in the last
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eight years compared to six foreign secretaries in the 24
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years before that. And imagine what that means for British
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foreign policy because Diplomacy, almost more than anything else, relies
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on these relationships. I'm here speaking to you from Uganda,
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where the president has been in, President Museveni has been
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in for decades now. And you only really begin to
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get anywhere with relationships, I think, on at least the
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second or third visit. And the problem that we've been
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facing with our foreign secretaries, indeed all our ministers, is
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that they rarely make it to the first visit, let
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alone beyond.
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No, but added to which, we're just not taking as
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seriously as we were, are we? I mean, the country
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is not taken as seriously. And look, Liz Truss, I
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don't know. I mean, has she really been effective as
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a foreign secretary? I mean, she's been effective in terms
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of persuading the Tory party members that she somehow single-handedly
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stood up to Vladimir Putin. I'm sure it's news to
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Vladimir Putin. But I don't know. I just worry the
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extent to which we're just not seen as a serious country.
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And our politics... You know, I mentioned this guy that
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I talked to from Singapore. We used to look at
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your politics with jealousy, and now we just sort of
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look at it and it's sad.
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I couldn't agree more. And it's been going on, unfortunately,
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a little bit longer than even the horrible Boris Johnson.
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I remember my friend John saying that he'd taken a
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friend of his from India into the House of Commons
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to watch a debate. And he used to do it
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in the 1980s with enormous pride. And he remembers sitting,
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this was in my early days under David Cameron, just
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sitting there and almost kind of weeping with shame at
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seeing MPs all on their phones, the very poor quality
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of the debate, very poorly attended chamber on a really big,
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serious foreign policy issue.
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That's horrible.
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One small thing that I noticed, she's, as Liz Truss
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has said, that she wants to create a much smaller,
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tighter office in Downing Street. And that is also what
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David Cameron said he was going to do in 2010.
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And it went wrong for him. because what happened is
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that he came in, Gordon Brown before him had been running,
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had inherited actually from Tony Blair, these delivery units, where
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number 10 was really quite a machine. It was running
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a lot of government. And David Cameron thought that he
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could just undo all that and have much smaller group
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of special advisors around him. And the truth was that
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it really didn't work. And in fact, the permanent secretaries
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who came in were very, very worried about the way
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things were being run, because you can't just remove that
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and hope that by removing it, you're going to return
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to some imagined dream of cabinet government. And I'm very,
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very worried that what you end up with is very inexperienced,
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young special advisors who really don't get most of these subjects,
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trying to bully and boss around other departments, other cabinet ministers.
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So I'm troubled by that beginning change in the institution
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of government.
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But she's made a big thing during the leadership election
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about cutting down the size of the state and I
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do think they've got to revisit this whole thing about
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the way they talk about the public sector and the
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way they talk about civil servants. It's almost like they are,
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you know, John Major made that speech a few months
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ago about the attitude now, we are the masters now.
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In other words, what we say goes. And if you've
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got somebody like Johnson and people say the same about
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this trust, that they have very fixed positions, they reach
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idiosyncratic ideas, and then they want them delivered. They can't
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do them on their own. Prime ministers can't make policy happen.
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They can devise policy. but you need civil servants to
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implement it.
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And add the problem, which is that the civil servants
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feel cowed and terrified. So many, many departments, they're not
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putting up proper advice to ministers because they're terrified about
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putting in writing things that are going to get them attacked.
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A very toxic culture has been created where if ministers
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don't like what they read, they jump up and down
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and they say, this is defeatist. This isn't echoing the
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messages we want. And the next thing you know, a
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few weeks later, they're saying, well, I don't like this
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briefing I've received. This is absolutely hopeless. You're not telling
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me anything. And the civil servant has to say, well,
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there's a reason why it's hopeless, because if I actually
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wrote down on this bit of paper for the meeting
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that you're going into, Minister, the truth of the situation,
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my whole civil service department would go into a panic,
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because the whole thing is terrified by these very erratic,
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extreme views from some of the senior ministers.
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Do you think you should tell our listeners about the
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message you got from a senior diplomat about the Foreign
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Office's handling of our podcast.
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To be absolutely clear, this was a message I got
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some time ago. So this is not something which... This
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is not a trust thing. But it might be because
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she was the Foreign Secretary at the time. It was
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Foreign Secretary at the time, that's true, Foreign Secretary at
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the time, but definitely something I received before the current trip.
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So this is somebody writing saying, like half the country,
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I'm a fan of the tonic that is the rest
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of politics, British diplomat. I thought I had to let
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you know, entirely unsourceable, of course, that FCDO has blocked
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the podcast download on official phones on account of explicit content.
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God forbid we offended the diplomats.
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Is that because of the rating? I think because I
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occasionally use the F word, we apparently are put down
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as not adult material, but it's kind of explicit, I
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think is the word. I didn't– you know, I read
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that message out on our Liz Trust podcast. Something stopped
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me from reading the name of the person who sent it.
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And I'm very glad that I did because it turned
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out that they were a civil servant as well. So
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there's a lot of angry people out there. And I'll
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tell you the other thing I've noticed. I noticed when
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I was at the Lido, this is not being seen
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as a new dawn, is it? I mean, people are
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just sort of– God.
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It's right.
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There's no great love for what's going on.
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But there are opportunities for a new dawn. I don't
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think this trust is going to take them. But let's
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just take a moment here, just in the fantasy world
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in which Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart have any influence
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over events at all. Here's one thought that I had.
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So I'm traveling through Africa at the moment. I'm on
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my way to Kenya. But I have the inauguration. The
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election's been upheld. So William Ruto is about to be
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inaugurated as president. I was at the last inauguration, which
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I think I told you about, where I got knocked
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a row back because a senior, well, actually not very
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senior Chinese official came in and was considered much more
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important than I was. But I do think the more
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that I travel around Africa, the more I realize that
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Britain has an opportunity to lead the world in changing
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the way it does development assistance, the way it does aid.
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African countries are completely fed up. with the fact that
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they think of aid as very, very patronizing. Most senior
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African politicians that I meet remember being lectured in the
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1960s and 70s, remember the way in which development aid
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was used to try to humiliate and patronize African nations.
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They're looking for a new model, what they call a
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modern partnership.
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Is that not what the Chinese are doing, though?
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Well, you're quite right to come to that, and this
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is where I think we come in. We are right here,
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Britain and Africa is right at the front line of
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taking on China and Russia. And the message I put
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to this trust is whatever you do, do not cut
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the development aid budget in places like Africa. Because we
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have a real opportunity to make a modern partnership, which
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is not the Chinese and Russian partnership, one that differentiates itself.
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And I, of course, would argue that one element of
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that is trusting China. citizens in Africa by doing cash programs,
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giving them choice, giving them freedom on how they... Not
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you and me turning up and telling people how to
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spend their money, but actually... being really radical, setting up
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the beginnings of a welfare state.
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If you're going to use a second successive main podcast
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to promote your new job, about which we're all very,
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very happy, I'm going to jump forward and ask you
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one of the questions that we got this week. And
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I'm also then going to give you a couple of
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comments from the showers in the Lido, you'll be pleased
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to know. Stephen Finlay, if we paid all residents of
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a village in cash and they all tried to buy
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a cow, how do we stop a cattle rancher with
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a few cows driving up prices? That's the first question.
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Jim Down, who's a doctor who swims in the Lido,
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he enjoyed hearing about your job and he enjoyed and
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he loved your passion and excitement about it. His question was,
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how do you sustain that? How do you give them
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a cash payment and then build sustainable prosperity? And Russell Hay,
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who is also a swimmer, and he's worried that you
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underestimate the broader economic impact. And he's also worried about
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how you assess this unless you have the middle people,
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the assessors that you actually say you want to get
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rid of by just giving them cash. So there you are.
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We talk about nothing but your new job.
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That's incredibly kind. So just for listeners who haven't been
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keeping up, I've just taken over as the as the president,
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the sort of CEO of a charity called GiveDirectly.
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Yeah, get your title right.
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Get it right.
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And so three challenges there. I'm not sure I can
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deal with all of them in a very short answer.
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But firstly, on inflation, very, very good research on this stuff.
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There have been over 200 academic papers on cash. And
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the truth is that if you do stuff in one village,
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it doesn't have a big inflation impact on the country.
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In fact, the model is that unless you put about
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20% of the gross domestic product to the country in
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as cash, you're unlikely to drive up prices. What will
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happen is that people will respond.
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You're right.
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Somebody from a neighboring village will bring some cows over
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so they can be bought. But we don't end up
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with huge inflation in prices. Next challenge.
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Sustainability.
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Yeah, sustainability. So there it's true that there will always
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be people in any country who are going to have
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to continue to receive social security payments. Be true in Britain,
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true in the United States, true in Africa. Africa is
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no different. There will be people who are disabled, elderly.
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And we have to set up, in the end, in
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countries as they develop something like a welfare state for
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people who can't look after themselves. But there are many,
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many people, the majority, in fact, of the people who
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are currently living in extreme poverty, who are young, who
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are entrepreneurial, very, very young populations in Africa, for whom
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a lump sum cash payment gives them that opportunity to
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set up a business, to start trading. And it's remarkable,
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the data, There have been fantastic studies on this from
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Bangladesh through to Africa, that pretty soon people end up
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with very significant savings, investments, incomes, because what's holding them
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back fundamentally?
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But there must be some who just go and blow it.
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There must be.
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Yeah, definitely. There are definitely people who go and blow it,
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as there are in our own country. But it's true
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that– and it's human beings. You're giving money to human beings.
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But generally speaking, if you're one of the very, very
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extreme poor, you're not that likely to blow it because–
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you really understand much more than you or I do
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the value of money because every single dollar means to
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them what $ 100 or $ 500 would mean to us.
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Well, Stephen Finley can let us know whether he thought
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you answered the first part. And I will report back
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from Jim and Russell in the showers where we have
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these very elevated conversations.
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I love these conversations in the showers. I also love
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this sort of vision of your morning. So you wake
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up in the morning at 6.30 in the morning, is
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that right? And then you go for a swim in
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an outdoor pool.
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Is it heated?
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With Fiona, no, it's not heated. In fact, it's too
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warm at the moment. It's too muggy and warm. We
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like it really, really cold.
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So do you go in the middle of winter? Are
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you like one of these kind of polar bear types?
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Yeah, through the winter. The colder, the better.
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And then to get your blood pressure going, you then
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listen to Boris Johnson's resignation speech on your way home?
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Not every day. I mean, thankfully, there's only been the
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one resignation speech. His brother, Joe, is actually an irregular
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swimmer at the Lido. So we occasionally... have polite conversations
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about politics. So what about this? We talked a little
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bit about Kwasi Kwarteng. What about James Cleverley? What do
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you know about James Cleverley?
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James Cleverley, he was one of Boris Johnson's, my memory
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of him, I hope I'm getting this right, not being
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unfair to James. I think he was one of Boris
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Johnson's lieutenants when Boris Johnson was mayor of London, served
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as deputy mayor for a bit. He, like me, did
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a a short course at Sandhurst, very short course at Sandhurst.
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And then I think was in the territorial army. He's interesting.
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I mean, so from a, I guess I think he,
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he talks a lot about his background. It's quite an
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interesting background. One black parent, one white parent. He very,
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very proud of his military service. I mean, I like
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James actually. I'm sort of skirting around the edges of this.
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I wanted to tempt him to be my running mate
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when I ran for the leadership in 2019. And he
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quite sensibly did. threw in his lot with boris johnson
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wouldn't have anything to do with me notwithstanding that slight
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grumble i have against him the reason i did it
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is that he's actually he he's good at being funny
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he talks normal better than most mps he's quite quick
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on twitter and he's a grown-up i mean he's somebody
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who you could take into a meeting with a a
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senior foreign official and he'll be polite he'll listen he'll
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be thoughtful is he clever No, I don't think he'd
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say that his big thing is that. I think what
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he is, is he's a sensible, thoughtful person. I think
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he's somebody who.
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Do you not think that foreign secretaries, particularly in the
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world that you define, do you not think they need
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to be really clever? I really like clever foreign secretaries.
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You like really clever foreign secretaries, do you? Who's your
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favourite foreign secretaries?
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I mean, I do think Robin Cook could be very,
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very tricky, but he was incredibly clever and smart, both
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politically and intellectually. I used to love Hans Dietrich Genscher.
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Do you remember with the yellow jumpers?
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Yeah.
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And then there was this tradition of very grand conservative
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foreign societies, wasn't there, going from Lord Carrington through to
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Douglas Hurd?
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Douglas Hurd.
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Yeah.
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I think Douglas Hurd was clever.
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Well, of course, he was head Boyd Eaton, top scholar.
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Oh, my God. Oh, listen, we've done the diplomat. Shall
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we tell our listeners about our other very distinguished listener
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who sent you a message?
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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And I will let you do the content of the
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said distinguished listener's message. And I will not say anything.
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I will let you present it at face value. And
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I actually thought he made quite a good case for himself.
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Well, I thought it was very, very brave. So the
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head pastor of Eaton's. Has written in. Anyone who's not
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been following this, obviously anyone who listens to this knows
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that all that Alistair does is grumble about Eton all
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the time.
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No, it's not all that I do. I do a
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lot of things.
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So he says, continuing, he's a very game, the headmaster,
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continuing to love the podcast. New role sounds fascinating. I
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heard your Q & A on Thursday, stuff about Eton,
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sending you a few bits and pieces to give you
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some more Eton partnership info and a copy of our
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recent inspection report.
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I think you should add the colour that he listened
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to the last episode of the podcast, driving to Middlesbrough.
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I thought that was quite interesting. He was driving to Middlesbrough.
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It's good.
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So they're supporting new sixth forms and they're bidding under
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the government's free school programme. They're going to add significant
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top-up funding, a million pounds per school per year in
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perpetuity to the government funding. School's yet to be approved.
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And then there was some quite nice articles. So Ian Austen,
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Labour MP, who I guess you know. You know Ian Austin, right?
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Ex-Labour MP, now a peer appointed by Johnson, I think.
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But there were some Labour Council leaders who were giving
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their very positive remarks.
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Simon Henderson, who's the headmaster of Eton, is levelling up
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education in the North by helping young people in deprived
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areas get into the best universities. And the headline was,
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Eton's woke headmaster deserves praise, not criticism. So and actually,
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I think it's a sort of maybe an attack on me.
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I don't know.
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He says rather than briefing against the headmaster's old Etonian
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detractors would do better to focus on all he's doing.
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Yes.
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I just think I should let that I will doubtless
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come back to say all sorts of things about Eton.
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But I think fair play to the headmaster of Eton
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for listening to the podcast as he drives to one
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of these schools in a working class area of the north.
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Fair play to the headmaster of Eton for challenging me
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for not being fair. And fair play for setting out
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what he's doing. I still think that Eton and Oxbridge
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are two of the reasons why this country is such
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a mess.
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But didn't you go to Oxbridge, Alistair?
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I did.
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I did. And that's why I can say as an
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insider that I'm not persuaded that it does all the
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good that it claims.
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That's all that amazing French and German we keep getting
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on the show. It's partly due to that Oxford education.
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Maybe time for a break. We are getting a statement
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from number 10. On that flight, with 350 passengers on board.
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The Great Gain. Strategic struggle between Britain and Russia. We
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assess Prime Minister with high confidence it was... Russian.
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Holding the Russians accountable is World War III.
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They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.
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00:19:28.660 --> 00:19:30.960
The man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex.
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You've got to ask yourself, do you want to play
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or not? You're the Prime Minister.
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You've done nothing!
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We would need to understand the policy context.
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All the relevant context will be structured as a framework
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today and disseminated into an operational... order, or frago. A
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frago that says to kill the president of Russia?
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Yes.
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00:20:00.029 --> 00:20:02.710
New from Goldhanger. Who is going to be able to
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00:20:02.789 --> 00:20:03.309
pull this off?
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00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:06.559
You're my soldier, are you?
413
00:20:06.579 --> 00:20:10.440
Sergeant Tom McDuff, Duffy. An audio drama journey like no other.
414
00:20:10.500 --> 00:20:14.859
Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons. Devised
415
00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:18.160
as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller. We have two
416
00:20:18.369 --> 00:20:21.190
times friendly key. Where Britain plays its strongest hand.
417
00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:21.890
He's the best.
418
00:20:21.990 --> 00:20:27.410
Against its strongest foe. Don't do it, Duffy! Bear Hunt.
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00:20:28.769 --> 00:20:31.390
Available now wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:50.140
And welcome back to The Rest Is Politics with me,
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Rory Stewart.
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And me, Alistair Campbell.
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Tell us a bit about Chile, Biden, Trump. Any thoughts
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on what's happening internationally?
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00:20:57.730 --> 00:21:00.009
Yeah, well, first of all, I just want to thank
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everybody who... I got a lot of very, very nice
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messages from our listeners last week about me talking about
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my depressive episode, which has sort of lingered all week
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and it's rumbled on and off. But I just wanted
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to say we got some... I know you did as well.
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We got some amazing... people sharing their stories, people giving
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hope and solidarity. So I really want to say thank
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you for that. Chile was extraordinary this week. Absolutely extraordinary.
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If you think about it, there was trouble in the streets.
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There was real violence going on because there were massive
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calls for constitutional change. And so Gabriel Boric, this young
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36-now politician, Guy comes along.
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Who we've all, we've spoken about, just to remind readers,
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but Gabriel Boric is this amazing.
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Listeners, the people listen to podcasts.
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Listeners, sorry.
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They read books and newspapers and magazines.
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He's kind of a classic kind of sort of out
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of central casting student revolutionary, kind of big beard, casual clothes, became,
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you know, leader of his country at the age of 36,
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one of the youngest leaders in the entire world. came
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in on the back of introducing a radical left-wing populist
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constitution and then over to Alistair for the denouement of
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the story.
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Well, it comes along and it was done through a
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155-member consultative assembly of non-traditional political people. They came up
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with these, were mainly political newcomers, they came up with
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these very, very, very wide-ranging and pretty radical proposals across
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social rights, environmental rights, gender equality, parity in government, access
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to abortion, gay rights, plurinationalism, recognizing the indigenous communities in Chile,
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access to education, health, clean water, animal rights. It was
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a huge thing. And I fear it's one of those
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things where they just got carried away and put too
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much in and they gave too much for their opponents
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to go at. And they ended up losing by 61.9
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to 38.1, which is pretty crushing. They're going to go back.
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They're going to ask them to redo it and have
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another go. Because if they don't, they've still got Pinochet's constitution.
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The whole thing is completely mad, isn't it? But it's
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also compulsory voting. So everybody, it's not like Brexit where
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people have a debate about what the majority of people thought.
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It's everybody voted and crushing 62% of people voted against.
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which is really confusing for the new president. So he's
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elected on a manifesto if we're going to bring change.
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It's also a real reminder of why one doesn't want
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to do referendums. Remember, we were talking about this in
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relation to Colombia, where again, celebrity, you know, great Nobel
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Peace Prize winning president comes in, does this peace deal,
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presents the referendum on the peace deal to the people
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and things are rejected.
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They had a referendum in 2020 on whether there should
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be a new constitution and it passed by 80%. So
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they won that one. Then he won an election and
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then he comes in and they'd be absolutely trance. But
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it was the other thing that was amazing. This is
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why I think that, you know, when people hear our
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interview with Mark Drakeford and we talk about the importance
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of some of these constitutional questions. To see those massive crowds,
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really huge crowds out on the streets of Chile, campaigning
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one way or the other on these big constitutional questions,
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I actually found it incredibly exciting. And I think they'll come,
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I think they will come back with something. No, I
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think Biden Trump's worth mentioning just because of, I think
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Biden's speech about, you know, they both basically made speeches
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last week saying that we're now fighting for the soul
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of America. And it sort of does feel like that.
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And I thought it was very interesting that Biden, I
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think for the first time went very, very directly for
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Donald Trump as the cause of this absolute polarisation. And,
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you know, they obviously fear the for the future of
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American democracy. It's a big moment.
497
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It's pretty, pretty serious stuff, pretty serious stuff. Well, thank
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you guys very, very much. A bit of a short
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episode today. because we've been doing an enormous number of
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different things.
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We can't leave without plugging Blackpool, Roy. And I've got
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an idea. I've got an idea.
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So just to remind people, Winter Gardens Blackpool, huge, biggest
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venue Alistair and I have ever played, Saturday, 8th of October.
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00:25:16.910 --> 00:25:18.369
Well, it might be the biggest you've ever played. I
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have actually played big in Roy.
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Actually, I've done the Albert Hall, actually.
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Oh, you've done that.
509
00:25:21.769 --> 00:25:22.369
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Saturday, 8th of October, 8pm. I think we've pretty much
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sold out the bottom bit, but we've now got to
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go up to the top bit. But what my idea was...
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Blackpool Illuminations. I mean, I know we've got an energy crisis,
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but apparently the Blackpool Illuminations are on and they're free.
515
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So people should go to Blackpool to see the illuminations
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for free and then come and pay to see us.
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What a great idea that is.
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Actually, Blackpool is a very, very great place to visit.
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If you've not visited Blackpool, you must visit Blackpool as
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well as coming to hear the two of us.
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At the Winter Gardens, which you can Google and get
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access to the tickets that we made because they're going very,
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very fast.
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All right.
525
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Well, thank you everybody very much. See some of you
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at Blackpool. And thank you, Alistair.
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Thank you. See you again soon.
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Hello and welcome to the Restless Politics with me, Rory Stewart.
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And me, Alistair Campbell.
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We're recording this on Tuesday afternoon, the day after our
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emergency Liz Truss victory pod. Today's episode, we'll talk a
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little bit more about the Prime Minister, cover some stories
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from abroad too. We're going to start though with obviously
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the thing that's on every listener's mind, which is Alistair,
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did you really go for a swim in the Lido
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instead of watching Boris Johnson's leaving speech this morning? Because
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that's not great preparation for today's podcast.
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I went to the Lido at seven. I was in
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the water at 7.01. I was out of the water
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at 7.25 and I listened to Boris Johnson on Radio
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5 Live as I walked home. Is that okay? And
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that was enough for me to realize that he left
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office exactly as he entered office, as a liar and
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a fantasist, talking about this amazing country that he transformed
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as he is there. And without a hint of humility
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or fortrition, in any sense that he was anything other
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than a wonderful figure who would go down in British
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history as one of our great leaders and then off
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he toddled to Balmoral to resign.
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And many people will sort of believe that, won't they?
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Had this line that, of course, troubles me a lot,
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which he says he's heading off like Cincinnatus to his plough.
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And the point about Cincinnatus is Cincinnatus is a Roman plough. Exactly.
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Roman politician who sets off his plan and gets summoned
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back to save the country.
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And became a dictator, didn't he?
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Oh, I think he was an emergency dictator. Yeah, that's good.
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That was classic, wasn't it? That was totally thrown out
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there to have people telling that story. And then if
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he's asked about it, he'll say, well, no, no, it
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was just a joke, just a joke, whatever.
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Yeah.
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No, if I was Liz Truss, I'd be worried about
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Johnson's intentions. And I think William Hague was right when
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we talked to him recently when he said Johnson's friends
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should tell him in no uncertain terms he should stay out.
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But he won't. He's incapable of being anything other than
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the centre of attention.
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Speaking of William Hague, good article in The Times today
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points out we've had six foreign secretaries in the last
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eight years compared to six foreign secretaries in the 24
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years before that. And imagine what that means for British
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foreign policy because Diplomacy, almost more than anything else, relies
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on these relationships. I'm here speaking to you from Uganda,
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where the president has been in, President Museveni has been
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in for decades now. And you only really begin to
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get anywhere with relationships, I think, on at least the
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second or third visit. And the problem that we've been
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facing with our foreign secretaries, indeed all our ministers, is
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that they rarely make it to the first visit, let
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alone beyond.
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No, but added to which, we're just not taking as
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seriously as we were, are we? I mean, the country
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is not taken as seriously. And look, Liz Truss, I
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don't know. I mean, has she really been effective as
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a foreign secretary? I mean, she's been effective in terms
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of persuading the Tory party members that she somehow single-handedly
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stood up to Vladimir Putin. I'm sure it's news to
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Vladimir Putin. But I don't know. I just worry the
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extent to which we're just not seen as a serious country.
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And our politics... You know, I mentioned this guy that
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I talked to from Singapore. We used to look at
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your politics with jealousy, and now we just sort of
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look at it and it's sad.
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I couldn't agree more. And it's been going on, unfortunately,
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a little bit longer than even the horrible Boris Johnson.
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I remember my friend John saying that he'd taken a
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friend of his from India into the House of Commons
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to watch a debate. And he used to do it
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in the 1980s with enormous pride. And he remembers sitting,
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this was in my early days under David Cameron, just
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sitting there and almost kind of weeping with shame at
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seeing MPs all on their phones, the very poor quality
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of the debate, very poorly attended chamber on a really big,
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serious foreign policy issue.
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That's horrible.
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One small thing that I noticed, she's, as Liz Truss
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has said, that she wants to create a much smaller,
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tighter office in Downing Street. And that is also what
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David Cameron said he was going to do in 2010.
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And it went wrong for him. because what happened is
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that he came in, Gordon Brown before him had been running,
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had inherited actually from Tony Blair, these delivery units, where
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number 10 was really quite a machine. It was running
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a lot of government. And David Cameron thought that he
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could just undo all that and have much smaller group
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of special advisors around him. And the truth was that
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it really didn't work. And in fact, the permanent secretaries
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who came in were very, very worried about the way
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things were being run, because you can't just remove that
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and hope that by removing it, you're going to return
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to some imagined dream of cabinet government. And I'm very,
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very worried that what you end up with is very inexperienced,
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young special advisors who really don't get most of these subjects,
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trying to bully and boss around other departments, other cabinet ministers.
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So I'm troubled by that beginning change in the institution
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of government.
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But she's made a big thing during the leadership election
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about cutting down the size of the state and I
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do think they've got to revisit this whole thing about
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the way they talk about the public sector and the
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way they talk about civil servants. It's almost like they are,
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you know, John Major made that speech a few months
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ago about the attitude now, we are the masters now.
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In other words, what we say goes. And if you've
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got somebody like Johnson and people say the same about
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this trust, that they have very fixed positions, they reach
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idiosyncratic ideas, and then they want them delivered. They can't
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do them on their own. Prime ministers can't make policy happen.
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They can devise policy. but you need civil servants to
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implement it.
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And add the problem, which is that the civil servants
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feel cowed and terrified. So many, many departments, they're not
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putting up proper advice to ministers because they're terrified about
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putting in writing things that are going to get them attacked.
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A very toxic culture has been created where if ministers
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don't like what they read, they jump up and down
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and they say, this is defeatist. This isn't echoing the
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messages we want. And the next thing you know, a
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few weeks later, they're saying, well, I don't like this
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briefing I've received. This is absolutely hopeless. You're not telling
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me anything. And the civil servant has to say, well,
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there's a reason why it's hopeless, because if I actually
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wrote down on this bit of paper for the meeting
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that you're going into, Minister, the truth of the situation,
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my whole civil service department would go into a panic,
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because the whole thing is terrified by these very erratic,
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extreme views from some of the senior ministers.
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Do you think you should tell our listeners about the
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message you got from a senior diplomat about the Foreign
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Office's handling of our podcast.
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To be absolutely clear, this was a message I got
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some time ago. So this is not something which... This
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is not a trust thing. But it might be because
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she was the Foreign Secretary at the time. It was
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Foreign Secretary at the time, that's true, Foreign Secretary at
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the time, but definitely something I received before the current trip.
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So this is somebody writing saying, like half the country,
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I'm a fan of the tonic that is the rest
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of politics, British diplomat. I thought I had to let
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you know, entirely unsourceable, of course, that FCDO has blocked
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the podcast download on official phones on account of explicit content.
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God forbid we offended the diplomats.
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Is that because of the rating? I think because I
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occasionally use the F word, we apparently are put down
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as not adult material, but it's kind of explicit, I
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think is the word. I didn't– you know, I read
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that message out on our Liz Trust podcast. Something stopped
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me from reading the name of the person who sent it.
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And I'm very glad that I did because it turned
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out that they were a civil servant as well. So
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there's a lot of angry people out there. And I'll
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tell you the other thing I've noticed. I noticed when
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I was at the Lido, this is not being seen
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as a new dawn, is it? I mean, people are
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just sort of– God.
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It's right.
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There's no great love for what's going on.
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But there are opportunities for a new dawn. I don't
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think this trust is going to take them. But let's
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just take a moment here, just in the fantasy world
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in which Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart have any influence
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over events at all. Here's one thought that I had.
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So I'm traveling through Africa at the moment. I'm on
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my way to Kenya. But I have the inauguration. The
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election's been upheld. So William Ruto is about to be
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inaugurated as president. I was at the last inauguration, which
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I think I told you about, where I got knocked
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a row back because a senior, well, actually not very
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senior Chinese official came in and was considered much more
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important than I was. But I do think the more
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that I travel around Africa, the more I realize that
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Britain has an opportunity to lead the world in changing
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the way it does development assistance, the way it does aid.
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African countries are completely fed up. with the fact that
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they think of aid as very, very patronizing. Most senior
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African politicians that I meet remember being lectured in the
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1960s and 70s, remember the way in which development aid
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was used to try to humiliate and patronize African nations.
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They're looking for a new model, what they call a
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modern partnership.
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Is that not what the Chinese are doing, though?
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Well, you're quite right to come to that, and this
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is where I think we come in. We are right here,
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Britain and Africa is right at the front line of
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taking on China and Russia. And the message I put
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to this trust is whatever you do, do not cut
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the development aid budget in places like Africa. Because we
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have a real opportunity to make a modern partnership, which
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is not the Chinese and Russian partnership, one that differentiates itself.
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And I, of course, would argue that one element of
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that is trusting China. citizens in Africa by doing cash programs,
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giving them choice, giving them freedom on how they... Not
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you and me turning up and telling people how to
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spend their money, but actually... being really radical, setting up
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the beginnings of a welfare state.
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If you're going to use a second successive main podcast
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to promote your new job, about which we're all very,
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very happy, I'm going to jump forward and ask you
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one of the questions that we got this week. And
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I'm also then going to give you a couple of
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comments from the showers in the Lido, you'll be pleased
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to know. Stephen Finlay, if we paid all residents of
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a village in cash and they all tried to buy
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a cow, how do we stop a cattle rancher with
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a few cows driving up prices? That's the first question.
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Jim Down, who's a doctor who swims in the Lido,
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he enjoyed hearing about your job and he enjoyed and
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he loved your passion and excitement about it. His question was,
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how do you sustain that? How do you give them
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a cash payment and then build sustainable prosperity? And Russell Hay,
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who is also a swimmer, and he's worried that you
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underestimate the broader economic impact. And he's also worried about
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how you assess this unless you have the middle people,
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the assessors that you actually say you want to get
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rid of by just giving them cash. So there you are.
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We talk about nothing but your new job.
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That's incredibly kind. So just for listeners who haven't been
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keeping up, I've just taken over as the as the president,
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the sort of CEO of a charity called GiveDirectly.
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Yeah, get your title right.
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Get it right.
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And so three challenges there. I'm not sure I can
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deal with all of them in a very short answer.
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But firstly, on inflation, very, very good research on this stuff.
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There have been over 200 academic papers on cash. And
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the truth is that if you do stuff in one village,
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it doesn't have a big inflation impact on the country.
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In fact, the model is that unless you put about
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20% of the gross domestic product to the country in
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as cash, you're unlikely to drive up prices. What will
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happen is that people will respond.
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You're right.
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Somebody from a neighboring village will bring some cows over
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so they can be bought. But we don't end up
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with huge inflation in prices. Next challenge.
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Sustainability.
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Yeah, sustainability. So there it's true that there will always
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be people in any country who are going to have
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to continue to receive social security payments. Be true in Britain,
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true in the United States, true in Africa. Africa is
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no different. There will be people who are disabled, elderly.
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And we have to set up, in the end, in
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countries as they develop something like a welfare state for
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people who can't look after themselves. But there are many,
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many people, the majority, in fact, of the people who
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are currently living in extreme poverty, who are young, who
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are entrepreneurial, very, very young populations in Africa, for whom
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a lump sum cash payment gives them that opportunity to
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set up a business, to start trading. And it's remarkable,
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the data, There have been fantastic studies on this from
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Bangladesh through to Africa, that pretty soon people end up
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with very significant savings, investments, incomes, because what's holding them
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back fundamentally?
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But there must be some who just go and blow it.
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There must be.
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Yeah, definitely. There are definitely people who go and blow it,
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as there are in our own country. But it's true
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that– and it's human beings. You're giving money to human beings.
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But generally speaking, if you're one of the very, very
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extreme poor, you're not that likely to blow it because–
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you really understand much more than you or I do
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the value of money because every single dollar means to
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them what $ 100 or $ 500 would mean to us.
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Well, Stephen Finley can let us know whether he thought
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you answered the first part. And I will report back
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from Jim and Russell in the showers where we have
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these very elevated conversations.
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I love these conversations in the showers. I also love
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this sort of vision of your morning. So you wake
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up in the morning at 6.30 in the morning, is
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that right? And then you go for a swim in
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an outdoor pool.
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Is it heated?
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With Fiona, no, it's not heated. In fact, it's too
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warm at the moment. It's too muggy and warm. We
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like it really, really cold.
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So do you go in the middle of winter? Are
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you like one of these kind of polar bear types?
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Yeah, through the winter. The colder, the better.
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And then to get your blood pressure going, you then
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listen to Boris Johnson's resignation speech on your way home?
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Not every day. I mean, thankfully, there's only been the
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one resignation speech. His brother, Joe, is actually an irregular
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swimmer at the Lido. So we occasionally... have polite conversations
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about politics. So what about this? We talked a little
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bit about Kwasi Kwarteng. What about James Cleverley? What do
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you know about James Cleverley?
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James Cleverley, he was one of Boris Johnson's, my memory
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of him, I hope I'm getting this right, not being
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unfair to James. I think he was one of Boris
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Johnson's lieutenants when Boris Johnson was mayor of London, served
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as deputy mayor for a bit. He, like me, did
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a a short course at Sandhurst, very short course at Sandhurst.
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And then I think was in the territorial army. He's interesting.
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I mean, so from a, I guess I think he,
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he talks a lot about his background. It's quite an
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interesting background. One black parent, one white parent. He very,
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very proud of his military service. I mean, I like
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James actually. I'm sort of skirting around the edges of this.
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I wanted to tempt him to be my running mate
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when I ran for the leadership in 2019. And he
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quite sensibly did. threw in his lot with boris johnson
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wouldn't have anything to do with me notwithstanding that slight
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grumble i have against him the reason i did it
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is that he's actually he he's good at being funny
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he talks normal better than most mps he's quite quick
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on twitter and he's a grown-up i mean he's somebody
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who you could take into a meeting with a a
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senior foreign official and he'll be polite he'll listen he'll
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be thoughtful is he clever No, I don't think he'd
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say that his big thing is that. I think what
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he is, is he's a sensible, thoughtful person. I think
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he's somebody who.
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Do you not think that foreign secretaries, particularly in the
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world that you define, do you not think they need
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to be really clever? I really like clever foreign secretaries.
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You like really clever foreign secretaries, do you? Who's your
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favourite foreign secretaries?
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I mean, I do think Robin Cook could be very,
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very tricky, but he was incredibly clever and smart, both
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politically and intellectually. I used to love Hans Dietrich Genscher.
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Do you remember with the yellow jumpers?
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Yeah.
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And then there was this tradition of very grand conservative
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foreign societies, wasn't there, going from Lord Carrington through to
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Douglas Hurd?
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Douglas Hurd.
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Yeah.
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I think Douglas Hurd was clever.
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Well, of course, he was head Boyd Eaton, top scholar.
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Oh, my God. Oh, listen, we've done the diplomat. Shall
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we tell our listeners about our other very distinguished listener
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who sent you a message?
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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And I will let you do the content of the
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said distinguished listener's message. And I will not say anything.
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I will let you present it at face value. And
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I actually thought he made quite a good case for himself.
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Well, I thought it was very, very brave. So the
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head pastor of Eaton's. Has written in. Anyone who's not
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been following this, obviously anyone who listens to this knows
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that all that Alistair does is grumble about Eton all
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the time.
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No, it's not all that I do. I do a
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lot of things.
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So he says, continuing, he's a very game, the headmaster,
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continuing to love the podcast. New role sounds fascinating. I
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heard your Q & A on Thursday, stuff about Eton,
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sending you a few bits and pieces to give you
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some more Eton partnership info and a copy of our
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recent inspection report.
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I think you should add the colour that he listened
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to the last episode of the podcast, driving to Middlesbrough.
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I thought that was quite interesting. He was driving to Middlesbrough.
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It's good.
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So they're supporting new sixth forms and they're bidding under
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the government's free school programme. They're going to add significant
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top-up funding, a million pounds per school per year in
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perpetuity to the government funding. School's yet to be approved.
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And then there was some quite nice articles. So Ian Austen,
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Labour MP, who I guess you know. You know Ian Austin, right?
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Ex-Labour MP, now a peer appointed by Johnson, I think.
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But there were some Labour Council leaders who were giving
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their very positive remarks.
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Simon Henderson, who's the headmaster of Eton, is levelling up
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education in the North by helping young people in deprived
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areas get into the best universities. And the headline was,
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Eton's woke headmaster deserves praise, not criticism. So and actually,
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I think it's a sort of maybe an attack on me.
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I don't know.
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He says rather than briefing against the headmaster's old Etonian
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detractors would do better to focus on all he's doing.
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Yes.
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I just think I should let that I will doubtless
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come back to say all sorts of things about Eton.
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But I think fair play to the headmaster of Eton
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for listening to the podcast as he drives to one
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of these schools in a working class area of the north.
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Fair play to the headmaster of Eton for challenging me
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for not being fair. And fair play for setting out
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what he's doing. I still think that Eton and Oxbridge
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are two of the reasons why this country is such
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a mess.
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But didn't you go to Oxbridge, Alistair?
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I did.
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I did. And that's why I can say as an
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insider that I'm not persuaded that it does all the
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good that it claims.
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That's all that amazing French and German we keep getting
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on the show. It's partly due to that Oxford education.
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Maybe time for a break. We are getting a statement
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from number 10. On that flight, with 350 passengers on board.
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The Great Gain. Strategic struggle between Britain and Russia. We
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assess Prime Minister with high confidence it was... Russian.
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Holding the Russians accountable is World War III.
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They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.
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The man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex.
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You've got to ask yourself, do you want to play
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or not? You're the Prime Minister.
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You've done nothing!
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We would need to understand the policy context.
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All the relevant context will be structured as a framework
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today and disseminated into an operational... order, or frago. A
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frago that says to kill the president of Russia?
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Yes.
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New from Goldhanger. Who is going to be able to
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pull this off?
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You're my soldier, are you?
413
00:20:06.579 --> 00:20:10.440
Sergeant Tom McDuff, Duffy. An audio drama journey like no other.
414
00:20:10.500 --> 00:20:14.859
Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons. Devised
415
00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:18.160
as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller. We have two
416
00:20:18.369 --> 00:20:21.190
times friendly key. Where Britain plays its strongest hand.
417
00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:21.890
He's the best.
418
00:20:21.990 --> 00:20:27.410
Against its strongest foe. Don't do it, Duffy! Bear Hunt.
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00:20:28.769 --> 00:20:31.390
Available now wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:50.140
And welcome back to The Rest Is Politics with me,
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Rory Stewart.
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And me, Alistair Campbell.
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Tell us a bit about Chile, Biden, Trump. Any thoughts
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on what's happening internationally?
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Yeah, well, first of all, I just want to thank
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everybody who... I got a lot of very, very nice
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messages from our listeners last week about me talking about
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my depressive episode, which has sort of lingered all week
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and it's rumbled on and off. But I just wanted
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to say we got some... I know you did as well.
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We got some amazing... people sharing their stories, people giving
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hope and solidarity. So I really want to say thank
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you for that. Chile was extraordinary this week. Absolutely extraordinary.
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If you think about it, there was trouble in the streets.
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There was real violence going on because there were massive
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calls for constitutional change. And so Gabriel Boric, this young
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36-now politician, Guy comes along.
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Who we've all, we've spoken about, just to remind readers,
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but Gabriel Boric is this amazing.
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Listeners, the people listen to podcasts.
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Listeners, sorry.
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They read books and newspapers and magazines.
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He's kind of a classic kind of sort of out
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of central casting student revolutionary, kind of big beard, casual clothes, became,
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00:21:59.859 --> 00:22:02.470
you know, leader of his country at the age of 36,
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one of the youngest leaders in the entire world. came
447
00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:08.220
in on the back of introducing a radical left-wing populist
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00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.660
constitution and then over to Alistair for the denouement of
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00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:11.099
the story.
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00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:16.309
Well, it comes along and it was done through a
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00:22:16.329 --> 00:22:23.460
155-member consultative assembly of non-traditional political people. They came up
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00:22:23.500 --> 00:22:26.160
with these, were mainly political newcomers, they came up with
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00:22:26.180 --> 00:22:32.900
these very, very, very wide-ranging and pretty radical proposals across
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00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:36.859
social rights, environmental rights, gender equality, parity in government, access
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00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:42.869
to abortion, gay rights, plurinationalism, recognizing the indigenous communities in Chile,
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00:22:43.329 --> 00:22:47.390
access to education, health, clean water, animal rights. It was
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00:22:47.430 --> 00:22:50.809
a huge thing. And I fear it's one of those
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00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:54.240
things where they just got carried away and put too
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00:22:54.299 --> 00:22:56.420
much in and they gave too much for their opponents
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00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.200
to go at. And they ended up losing by 61.9
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00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:05.670
to 38.1, which is pretty crushing. They're going to go back.
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00:23:05.970 --> 00:23:08.690
They're going to ask them to redo it and have
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00:23:08.730 --> 00:23:12.470
another go. Because if they don't, they've still got Pinochet's constitution.
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00:23:12.690 --> 00:23:14.289
The whole thing is completely mad, isn't it? But it's
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also compulsory voting. So everybody, it's not like Brexit where
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00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:20.960
people have a debate about what the majority of people thought.
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00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:24.940
It's everybody voted and crushing 62% of people voted against.
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00:23:25.349 --> 00:23:27.970
which is really confusing for the new president. So he's
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00:23:28.150 --> 00:23:29.960
elected on a manifesto if we're going to bring change.
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00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:32.339
It's also a real reminder of why one doesn't want
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00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:34.279
to do referendums. Remember, we were talking about this in
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00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:39.309
relation to Colombia, where again, celebrity, you know, great Nobel
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00:23:39.369 --> 00:23:42.809
Peace Prize winning president comes in, does this peace deal,
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00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:45.369
presents the referendum on the peace deal to the people
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00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:46.130
and things are rejected.
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00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:50.430
They had a referendum in 2020 on whether there should
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00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:53.250
be a new constitution and it passed by 80%. So
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00:23:53.269 --> 00:23:57.849
they won that one. Then he won an election and
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00:23:57.869 --> 00:24:00.089
then he comes in and they'd be absolutely trance. But
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00:24:00.150 --> 00:24:02.089
it was the other thing that was amazing. This is
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00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:05.559
why I think that, you know, when people hear our
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00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:08.599
interview with Mark Drakeford and we talk about the importance
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00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.549
of some of these constitutional questions. To see those massive crowds,
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00:24:12.769 --> 00:24:16.589
really huge crowds out on the streets of Chile, campaigning
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00:24:16.710 --> 00:24:18.910
one way or the other on these big constitutional questions,
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00:24:18.930 --> 00:24:22.619
I actually found it incredibly exciting. And I think they'll come,
487
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:25.380
I think they will come back with something. No, I
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00:24:25.420 --> 00:24:28.039
think Biden Trump's worth mentioning just because of, I think
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00:24:28.099 --> 00:24:33.470
Biden's speech about, you know, they both basically made speeches
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00:24:33.509 --> 00:24:35.849
last week saying that we're now fighting for the soul
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00:24:35.869 --> 00:24:38.049
of America. And it sort of does feel like that.
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00:24:38.390 --> 00:24:40.809
And I thought it was very interesting that Biden, I
493
00:24:40.829 --> 00:24:43.750
think for the first time went very, very directly for
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00:24:43.769 --> 00:24:49.670
Donald Trump as the cause of this absolute polarisation. And,
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00:24:50.109 --> 00:24:53.089
you know, they obviously fear the for the future of
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00:24:53.130 --> 00:24:55.089
American democracy. It's a big moment.
497
00:24:55.210 --> 00:24:58.710
It's pretty, pretty serious stuff, pretty serious stuff. Well, thank
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00:24:58.750 --> 00:25:00.970
you guys very, very much. A bit of a short
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00:25:01.009 --> 00:25:04.980
episode today. because we've been doing an enormous number of
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00:25:05.299 --> 00:25:06.200
different things.
501
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.539
We can't leave without plugging Blackpool, Roy. And I've got
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00:25:09.559 --> 00:25:10.819
an idea. I've got an idea.
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00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:14.220
So just to remind people, Winter Gardens Blackpool, huge, biggest
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00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:16.890
venue Alistair and I have ever played, Saturday, 8th of October.
505
00:25:16.910 --> 00:25:18.369
Well, it might be the biggest you've ever played. I
506
00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:19.430
have actually played big in Roy.
507
00:25:19.470 --> 00:25:21.150
Actually, I've done the Albert Hall, actually.
508
00:25:21.230 --> 00:25:21.750
Oh, you've done that.
509
00:25:21.769 --> 00:25:22.369
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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00:25:22.990 --> 00:25:26.230
Saturday, 8th of October, 8pm. I think we've pretty much
511
00:25:26.289 --> 00:25:28.529
sold out the bottom bit, but we've now got to
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00:25:28.569 --> 00:25:31.220
go up to the top bit. But what my idea was...
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00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:34.319
Blackpool Illuminations. I mean, I know we've got an energy crisis,
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00:25:34.339 --> 00:25:37.720
but apparently the Blackpool Illuminations are on and they're free.
515
00:25:38.059 --> 00:25:40.299
So people should go to Blackpool to see the illuminations
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00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:42.579
for free and then come and pay to see us.
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00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:43.839
What a great idea that is.
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00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:46.640
Actually, Blackpool is a very, very great place to visit.
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00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:49.549
If you've not visited Blackpool, you must visit Blackpool as
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00:25:49.589 --> 00:25:50.740
well as coming to hear the two of us.
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00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:53.789
At the Winter Gardens, which you can Google and get
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00:25:53.849 --> 00:25:56.450
access to the tickets that we made because they're going very,
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00:25:56.470 --> 00:25:56.849
very fast.
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00:25:57.250 --> 00:25:57.450
All right.
525
00:25:57.470 --> 00:25:59.759
Well, thank you everybody very much. See some of you
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00:25:59.779 --> 00:26:01.460
at Blackpool. And thank you, Alistair.
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00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:03.180
Thank you. See you again soon.
