It's Working: Flooding The Zone

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So I want to start this one somewhere we
don't usually start.
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I'm like tired. Not tired like I stayed up
too late or drank a little
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bit too much last night. Tired like I
opened three browser tabs this morning
trying
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to figure out like what we should cover
this week and I closed all of them
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and I sat there and I I didn't pick
anything because picking one of them felt
like
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agreeing to ignore the other nine million
things that could have been
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in that very same tab.
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And look, there were there were like
forty.
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And I know because we've been doing this
show for like a year and a half that
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the number is going up and not down.
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So let's just say what this episode is.
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This is not a news episode. There's no
docket number this week,
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there's no chart. This is the two of us
talking about the fact that
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we are exhausted. And that a lot of you
are also exhausted,
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and that the exhaustion is not like a side
effect of what's happening,
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it's kind of the point.
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of what's happening. So that's the thesis
today.
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If you take one thing out of the next,
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you know, episode minutes, take that one.
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The tiredness, the exhaustion is the
product.
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It's not evidence that you're weak or that
you don't care enough or that you've
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got some kind of moral stamina problem
that other people don't have.
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It's the intended output of a strategy
that has a name and an author
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and a documented.
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And I want to be careful here because I
know how this can sound.
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There's a version of this episode that's
just like two guys complaining into
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a microphone for 40 minutes, and then
everybody feels pissed off,
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and then you turn it off. And that's not
what this is gonna be.
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And that would actually be a small
contribution to the problem,
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is why we're not doing that. So here's
kind of the shape of it.
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For the first half, we're gonna be precise
about
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What's being done to us and how it works.
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Not because I think that being precise and
exact about it some sort of takes some
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of its power away. But the second half is
strategy,
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not vibes, not you got this. Actual
peer-reviewed research on
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why people in movements burn out and what
the ones who don't burn
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out do differently. And some of that
research is 40 years old and nobody talks
about
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it, which
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Annoys me personally.
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A noise may be an understatement.
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Yeah, it annoys me a lot. And we'll get
there.
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One more thing before we start,
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and I mean this. If you're listening to
this and you've already stopped following
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the news, if you've muted the words,
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if you've deleted the app, if you just
can't anymore,
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you're not the villain of this episode.
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So the phrase, flood the zone.
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Some people have heard of it. Most people
haven't.
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Steve Bannon talking to the author Michael
Lewis,
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believe he's the author of Moneyball,
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if not mistaken, or anyway, some of those
economic books,
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~ around twenty eighteen. ~ he's talking
to Steve Bannon,
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and Steve Bannon says, with the real the
real opposition to the agenda
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at the time he was working for for ~
Trump.
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The real opposition is the media,
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and the way to deal with the media is to
quote,
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flood the zone with shit.
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And that's like the whole doctrine.
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That's it. Just that's the sentence.
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Just that. Flood the zone with shit.
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I mean it's honest, I'll give him that.
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He's not being cagey, he's describing a
method.
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And so we're gonna break down what the
method actually assumes because this
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is the part that is kinda clever and
equally
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~ combustibly evil all at the same time.
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It doesn't assume you're stupid.
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It actually doesn't assume you believe the
shit.
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No.
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It it assumes that you have this finite
amount of attention.
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Like, that's it. That's the whole bet.
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The bet is that attention is somehow a
fixed resource.
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It doesn't scale. You can't buy more of
it.
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And if I just generate the shit faster
than you can process the shit,
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I win by default. Not by convincing you.
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Not by by winning the argument,
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but just by
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Exceeding you horizontally.
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like the debate kids who just keep talking
and talking and talking and talking.
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You never you can't even track what
they're saying much less get a word in.
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But
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Yeah, like a Jubilee post.
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yeah. But that's why the scholars who
write about this describe
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it as specifically anti-democratic rather
than just straight up dishonest.
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Because it's not targeting your beliefs.
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It's targeting your capacity to hold
anything steady long enough to act on it.
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And the ability to sustain public
attention on a thing.
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is sort of load bearing for the whole
democratic arrangement.
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Oversight requires attention.
Accountability requires attention.
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You can't actually hold somebody
accountable for something you've already
forgotten
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because four other things just happened.
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Or forty or four hundred, right.
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Right. Or renaming Lake Ontario to Lake
America.
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So here's why I want to bring in an actual
study because I I just I don't want
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to be just the two guys with a theory.
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There is a longitudinal piece by Julia
Meetag and Gwendolyn Gurr published
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in twenty twenty three and they they
tracked people over time through
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a referendum campaign. Not anything
exciting,
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but it was just a referendum campaign,
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and they found a very specific causal
change.
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Not a correlation, a causation.
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Walk us through it.
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So information overload comes first.
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That's the feeling of there's too much of
this and it's updating faster than
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I can possibly process it. And that
overload reduces what they call news
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efficacy, which is basically your sense
that consuming this gish
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gab actually does anything for you.
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So it's not an issue of can I understand
it?
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It's an issue of does understanding it
help me or how do I apply what I
understood?
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Right. And then that drop in efficacy is
what predicts news
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avoidance. So the sequence is basically
just overload,
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then loss of efficacy, then withdrawal
entirely in that order.
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And that matters enormously because the
story people tell about news avoiders
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is that they're lazy or apathetic or
checked out.
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That's exactly what we're seeing at the
polls right now with who is voting
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why and how often and whatever.
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But the truth is they're not lazy or
apathetic or checked out.
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They're responding rationally to a system
that stopped paying out.
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If you pull the lever a hundred times and
nothing comes out,
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not pulling the lever is not apathy.
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It's avoiding the definition of ex
insanity.
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It's it's learning
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The system where every time you pull the
lever,
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nothing happens.
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I'd say this might be closer to the
experiments where they shock you
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for pulling the lever. But that's where
the psychology term comes in,
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which we're going to use carefully here
because it gets thrown around loosely.
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The term is learned helplessness.
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The original work is about what happens
when a subject is exposed repeatedly
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to a stressor they cannot control.
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And the finding is that eventually they
stop attempting to change the situation,
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even when the situation changes and they
could.
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Even when they could, and that's the ugly
part of all of this.
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Right. The learning outlasts the
conditions that taught it.
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So basically if you wanted to design a
system that produced a population that
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had entirely given up and checked out,
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but then felt like it was their own
decision,
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you would build exactly this. You wouldn't
censor anything.
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Censorship is expensive and it creates
martyrs and it's pretty obvious.
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You'd just publish everything constantly,
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forever, and let people exhaust themselves
sorting through it.
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Feeling like I'm in a cage right now.
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~ the exhaustion feels like a personal
failing because of that rather than
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a policy outcome. Right? Nobody forced
them to turn off and drop out.
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They did it on their own.
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Which is
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exactly which is why it's so easy to spot.
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Like that's how you know it's working
exactly as they designed it to.
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When the harm gets experienced as a
character flaw by the person it's
happening to.
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I wanna add the piece from my side of
this,
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which is the institutional piece,
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because there's a second thing the flood
of information on the flooding
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of the zone does that gets less attention.
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It's not just wearing out individuals,
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it's overwhelming the whole machinery of
the system.
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Say more, King.
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Every institution that's supposed to check
power runs on a queue,
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right? Courts have dockets, newsrooms have
staff,
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congressional committees have hearing
calendars,
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inspectors general, when they are allowed
to carry out their inspections,
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~ have caseloads. Every one of those is a
system with a throughput limit,
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and none of those limits are secret.
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If you generate at four times the rate the
queue can clear,
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you don't have to beat the queue,
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you just have to fill it.
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And then all of those things passed
because nobody got to them.
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There just wasn't time. Not because they
were argued for successfully,
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but there just wasn't a lane open.
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Right. So look, I wanna do the thing we
always do,
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which is actually check whether the story
we're telling survives contact with
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numbers, because we've been saying it's
working,
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and I I wanna be honest about the fact
that it's not working evenly.
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Sounds good.
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So the courts by the middle of May twenty
twenty five,
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there have been thirty-nine injunctions
issued against this administration.
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They've blocked massive federal layoffs,
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they've blocked funding freezes,
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deportations, but ultimately it comes down
to thirty nine things,
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and that's just May. We're in September,
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right? May of twenty twenty five.
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So now we're in September of twenty twenty
six.
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Right, that's that's a lot of losing for
something that's supposed
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to be steamrolling everybody.
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No, it is. And and more recently,
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the the Congressional Research Service
looked
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at thirty-four predecision injunctions.
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And as of June twenty seventh of this
year,
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forty one point two percent of them were
still in effect.
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So like a meaningful chunk of the early
agenda
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is still right now legally blocked and
mostly in the immigration space.
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And the biggest one.
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Yeah, i i it is the biggest one.
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Basically it's Trump versus Barbara.
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June thirtieth, twenty twenty six,
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just a couple of months ago, the Supreme
Court struck down
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the birthright citizenship executive
order,
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six to three. Like it wasn't close.
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You know, it wasn't our nail biters that
we're usually having,
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like what overturned Roe versus Wade.
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So that's not a like a technicality,
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right? It's not a delay. That's like a
that's like a ha a loss,
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right? A landslide, as he said about the
election.
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And keep in mind six to three is this is
going the other way,
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right? Six to three is the ideological
breakdown,
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but the other way. There's supposed to be
six conservatives
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or roughly roughly conservatives,
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you know, right of the other three,
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and then three liberals left on the court.
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Right. And it went opposite. So sit with
that for a second because your entire
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information diet is the flood.
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And you've probably experienced that as
like a a headline for like ninety minutes
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and then it was gone.
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Now for the other column.
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Yeah, I'm going to because I I'm not
interested in doing sort
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of this like cheerleading episode.
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The the Fourth Circuit lifted the block on
the anti DEI orders.
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So key provisions of those are live and
enforceable.
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But the Supreme Court led the
administration ~ to keep denying accurate
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gender markers on passports for trans and
non binary Americans.
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And the mail voting order has been a
genuine shit show.
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It was lifted partly in August and then
blocked again just a couple of days ago,
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but it's still moving.
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So the honest summary is a split.
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Right. Which is not as easy of a headline
to really swallow,
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right? Because some of it's dead,
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some of it is currently law,
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and a lot of it is just still kind of
ethereal,
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like we haven't figured it out yet.
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We don't know.
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And I wanna name why I think that split is
actually the most important fact
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in this episode. It's not the one people
expect.
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Go for it.
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So both of the emotionally available
positions are wrong.
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Position one is they're unstoppable,
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it's over, nothing works. That's factually
false.
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Thirty-nine injunctions, a six to three
loss at the Supreme Court.
236
00:13:24,249 --> 00:13:27,161
The courts are standing up to the
administration to some degree,
237
00:13:27,161 --> 00:13:28,232
and those things worked.
238
00:13:28,732 --> 00:13:29,732
But
239
00:13:29,601 --> 00:13:31,694
Position two is that the system held,
240
00:13:31,694 --> 00:13:33,606
the guardrails worked, everybody relaxed.
241
00:13:33,606 --> 00:13:38,593
Also factually false. The DEI provisions
are enforcing right now.
242
00:13:38,593 --> 00:13:41,877
Real people lost real passport access
access.
243
00:13:42,873 --> 00:13:48,321
So both of these these comfortable stories
that we've been told,
244
00:13:48,321 --> 00:13:54,020
one that the position held and one that
the available positions
245
00:13:54,020 --> 00:13:56,153
are wrong are both lies.
246
00:13:56,653 --> 00:13:58,155
Right, and people want a clear cut answer,
247
00:13:58,155 --> 00:13:59,577
right? But both of the clear cut,
248
00:13:59,577 --> 00:14:03,502
comfortable stories are lies, and they're
comfortable for the same reason,
249
00:14:03,502 --> 00:14:05,274
which is that they let you stop paying
attention,
250
00:14:05,274 --> 00:14:07,127
right? One says it's hopeless,
251
00:14:07,127 --> 00:14:09,089
don't even bother, don't turn on the TV.
252
00:14:09,089 --> 00:14:11,372
The other says it's handled, so why
bother?
253
00:14:11,372 --> 00:14:13,755
Go watch something else. Different route,
254
00:14:13,755 --> 00:14:14,797
same destination.
255
00:14:15,297 --> 00:14:19,859
Yeah, and that that kind of lands directly
on the thing you said about tabs.
256
00:14:19,859 --> 00:14:25,663
The reason it's hard is that the actual
state of affairs is that some of
257
00:14:25,663 --> 00:14:28,884
it is is stoppable and some of it isn't.
258
00:14:28,884 --> 00:14:31,686
And you have to figure that out for
yourself.
259
00:14:31,686 --> 00:14:35,988
And figuring that part out, that that
cognitive load,
260
00:14:35,988 --> 00:14:41,111
is expensive, both calorically as well as
intelligently.
261
00:14:41,111 --> 00:14:43,132
Right? That is the work.
262
00:14:43,632 --> 00:14:46,851
And they're betting that you either won't
or can't do it.
263
00:14:47,351 --> 00:14:51,113
Right, which brings me to the thing I said
last week and and I'll put
264
00:14:51,113 --> 00:14:57,005
it on record here. A very large share of
what actually gets announced
265
00:14:57,645 --> 00:15:02,447
is not expected to survive. It's not
drafted to survive.
266
00:15:02,447 --> 00:15:04,338
It's just drafted to be loud.
267
00:15:04,838 --> 00:15:05,838
And how do we tell?
268
00:15:06,151 --> 00:15:10,432
I mean I go back and forth. ~ th there are
there are tells,
269
00:15:10,432 --> 00:15:14,553
right? Like I mean, you can kind of see
through it a little bit,
270
00:15:14,553 --> 00:15:16,954
but it's mostly opaque. But they're
boring.
271
00:15:16,954 --> 00:15:19,084
Which is exactly why they work.
272
00:15:19,084 --> 00:15:24,436
A thing a thing that's meant to actually
happen has like full text written
273
00:15:24,436 --> 00:15:29,077
by attorneys and it's ironclad and it was
already decided in Project 2025.
274
00:15:29,077 --> 00:15:33,878
Not some like concept announced from a
podium that they have ~
275
00:15:34,028 --> 00:15:37,960
Hastings of a thought process of a plan
that's gonna take place in two weeks.
276
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,333
And it it has a named agency that actually
puts it into effect and
277
00:15:42,333 --> 00:15:45,985
it has an effective date and there's money
and a budget attached
278
00:15:45,985 --> 00:15:50,908
and an appropriation or an existing line
item that they can tap into.
279
00:15:50,908 --> 00:15:53,429
It already has people hired to do it.
280
00:15:53,429 --> 00:15:56,991
And it usually moves very quietly,
281
00:15:56,991 --> 00:16:01,144
often on a Friday and a lot of the times
with no press coverage at all.
282
00:16:01,644 --> 00:16:05,538
And I'm guessing rubber stamped in a
committee if if at all sent to a
committee.
283
00:16:05,538 --> 00:16:07,440
But the things meant to be noise,
284
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:08,861
what do we what do we think about those?
285
00:16:09,793 --> 00:16:12,604
Yeah, they're they're just kind of
announced rather than filed,
286
00:16:12,604 --> 00:16:17,105
right? No no implementation mechanism
legally weak in ways that
287
00:16:17,105 --> 00:16:20,286
are obvious to actual attorneys who
drafted it.
288
00:16:20,286 --> 00:16:26,368
It gets a lot of press. But there's not a
lot of paperwork or,
289
00:16:26,368 --> 00:16:31,969
you know, adjudication put into figuring
out what the law actually says.
290
00:16:31,969 --> 00:16:37,431
It's just kind of a a weak argument that
is loud.
291
00:16:37,431 --> 00:16:38,431
It's
292
00:16:38,689 --> 00:16:41,932
Gross. It's supposed to make you go,
293
00:16:41,932 --> 00:16:44,724
there's no way they can do that and get
angry.
294
00:16:44,724 --> 00:16:49,488
But the biggest tell of all is that that's
usually the thing that they carry,
295
00:16:49,488 --> 00:16:53,271
right? That's the thing you see actually
see in the headlines because
296
00:16:54,012 --> 00:16:59,376
if passed would be awful. Because it's
something that's actually moving,
297
00:16:59,376 --> 00:17:02,499
that doesn't need to be announced twice,
298
00:17:02,499 --> 00:17:06,182
that's happening in the left hand versus
the right hand.
299
00:17:06,682 --> 00:17:11,308
Right. So I mean it's it's not even it's
not propaganda.
300
00:17:11,308 --> 00:17:12,940
It's more like what is it they call that?
301
00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:15,863
I don't know, there's all these words for
these things where like is it rage bait?
302
00:17:15,863 --> 00:17:16,863
Is that a thing?
303
00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:20,262
Yeah, I mean Trump Trump is been doing
this for quite a while.
304
00:17:20,262 --> 00:17:24,315
Is is he puts the loud thing out there in
front so you pay attention to that
305
00:17:24,315 --> 00:17:26,347
so you don't pay attention to what's
happening behind the curtain.
306
00:17:27,246 --> 00:17:29,674
Right. ~ thank you, Donald Copperfield.
307
00:17:29,674 --> 00:17:34,459
~ so we can we at least follow the
staffing and the money.
308
00:17:34,959 --> 00:17:38,560
I mean sure, but not the volume.
309
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,462
A quiet thing that hires and the
appropriation part of it that
310
00:17:43,462 --> 00:17:45,683
the Congress is actually backing him up
with,
311
00:17:45,683 --> 00:17:51,255
that's real. A loud thing with a podium
and no personnel is kind of theater,
312
00:17:51,255 --> 00:17:55,917
it's designed for that. And we've actually
done this on this show before,
313
00:17:55,917 --> 00:17:59,208
right? The controlling the checkbook
episode was a was a docket number
314
00:17:59,208 --> 00:18:01,959
and four hundred and twelve pages that
nobody was reading.
315
00:18:02,773 --> 00:18:07,734
That was the real one. It was silent and
nobody had heard of it and it
316
00:18:07,734 --> 00:18:12,607
was just kind of passing underneath the
radar because it was a full build
317
00:18:12,607 --> 00:18:16,689
and it was so big that nobody had even
bothered to take it apart because it's
also
318
00:18:16,689 --> 00:18:21,021
not gonna get CNN headlines or MS Now or
Fox News or or whatever.
319
00:18:21,521 --> 00:18:23,374
And you may be circle circling back to
this,
320
00:18:23,374 --> 00:18:26,999
but ~ I mean that sometimes they can be
mixed in,
321
00:18:26,999 --> 00:18:28,782
right? Like the big bullshit bill.
322
00:18:28,782 --> 00:18:30,404
~ that was like
323
00:18:29,806 --> 00:18:30,806
Right.
324
00:18:30,485 --> 00:18:32,247
some loud stuff and some quiet stuff,
325
00:18:32,247 --> 00:18:33,469
right? That actually mattered.
326
00:18:33,469 --> 00:18:34,731
~
327
00:18:34,083 --> 00:18:35,083
Yeah, like the Save
328
00:18:34,954 --> 00:18:40,869
Act. the I mean the the Senate just passed
or was bragging about ~ the fact that
329
00:18:40,869 --> 00:18:45,002
a hundred and twenty nine Democrats didn't
vote for this this thing that denounced
330
00:18:45,543 --> 00:18:49,125
what was it, d denounced socialism,
331
00:18:49,125 --> 00:18:52,668
right? Specifically denounced socialism
and look at all these things.
332
00:18:52,668 --> 00:18:56,912
But it was earmarked with this very
particular clause inside that would have
passed
333
00:18:56,972 --> 00:19:01,836
the SAVE Act, which means that anybody
who's ever changed their name or been
married
334
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,982
Has to bring like live birth certificates
and legal documents just to vote.
335
00:19:05,982 --> 00:19:11,544
It's super gross, but they're doing it out
there on purpose.
336
00:19:11,544 --> 00:19:13,565
And they know that it's gross.
337
00:19:13,565 --> 00:19:17,456
So instead of carrying the fact that
they're trying to pass the Save
338
00:19:17,456 --> 00:19:19,067
Act underneath our noses, they're like,
339
00:19:19,067 --> 00:19:22,088
~ look, Democrats won't denounce
socialism.
340
00:19:22,088 --> 00:19:23,958
They're all communists. I'm like,
341
00:19:23,958 --> 00:19:25,969
well, those those aren't even the same
thing.
342
00:19:26,717 --> 00:19:29,309
And don't listen to those pink o commies
because they're gonna tell
343
00:19:29,309 --> 00:19:31,521
you what to think. We would never do that.
344
00:19:31,521 --> 00:19:35,524
Right? As we tell you what to think.
345
00:19:34,256 --> 00:19:36,485
Exactly. Literally.
346
00:19:35,524 --> 00:19:36,524
~
347
00:19:37,046 --> 00:19:38,987
okay, so I'm gonna I'm gonna take this
next part,
348
00:19:38,987 --> 00:19:42,222
take a lead on this next part because I
think for reasons that'll become clear
349
00:19:42,222 --> 00:19:46,494
as along the way, I'm actually qualified
to talk about this a little bit.
350
00:19:46,751 --> 00:19:47,751
That's why you're here.
351
00:19:49,897 --> 00:19:51,158
Not for not just for my good looks.
352
00:19:51,506 --> 00:19:52,988
Among other things. Yeah,
353
00:19:52,988 --> 00:19:56,362
actually our our good looks actually
translate rather well over this podcast.
354
00:19:56,814 --> 00:19:58,695
Right. ~ there's
355
00:19:58,695 --> 00:20:00,185
there's a body of research on this,
356
00:20:00,185 --> 00:20:03,846
not on burnout generally, but on activist
burnout specifically.
357
00:20:03,846 --> 00:20:07,878
And the person who's done the most careful
work on it is a a man by the name
358
00:20:07,878 --> 00:20:13,539
of Paul Gorski. And the core study
interviewed twenty-two social justice
359
00:20:13,539 --> 00:20:17,231
and human rights activists across a range
of different movements.
360
00:20:17,231 --> 00:20:21,072
And what he found when he sorted out the
causes was four categories.
361
00:20:21,661 --> 00:20:24,519
Ooh, I like these. They're like ~
infographics.
362
00:20:24,519 --> 00:20:25,642
Four categories. Go.
363
00:20:25,104 --> 00:20:26,104
Yeah.
364
00:20:26,205 --> 00:20:29,306
Yeah, some fun new words to learn and
throw out at the dinner parties.
365
00:20:29,306 --> 00:20:32,647
emotional and dispositional causes,
366
00:20:32,647 --> 00:20:34,628
which is the stuff you bring in with you.
367
00:20:34,628 --> 00:20:38,130
Structural causes, which is the scale of
the problem itself,
368
00:20:38,130 --> 00:20:42,702
backlash causes, which is what gets done
to you for participating,
369
00:20:42,702 --> 00:20:43,702
and then there's a fourth one.
370
00:20:44,202 --> 00:20:45,202
Do I even want to know?
371
00:20:45,446 --> 00:20:47,237
It's kind of sad. It's it's in movement,
372
00:20:47,237 --> 00:20:48,378
which is causes
373
00:20:48,023 --> 00:20:49,023
Mm.
374
00:20:48,378 --> 00:20:50,039
that come from inside the thing you join.
375
00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:53,241
So again, these are the four categories of
things that can cause you
376
00:20:53,261 --> 00:20:55,783
as an activist or cause activists
specifically to burn out.
377
00:20:55,783 --> 00:20:58,155
So the emotional and dispositional stuff,
378
00:20:58,155 --> 00:21:00,366
this is what you're bringing, this is what
matters to you when you start
379
00:21:00,366 --> 00:21:02,848
as an activist. Structural causes.
380
00:21:01,888 --> 00:21:02,888
Well, I
381
00:21:03,365 --> 00:21:06,941
I'm sure I can guess the the most
important one 'cause you left it for last.
382
00:21:07,441 --> 00:21:11,153
Sure, it's the fourth one. and it's not
close,
383
00:21:11,153 --> 00:21:13,714
even in terms of how much the interview
material it accounts for.
384
00:21:13,714 --> 00:21:16,055
So people described infighting,
385
00:21:16,055 --> 00:21:18,416
backbiting, struggles over power,
386
00:21:18,416 --> 00:21:22,948
and they described movements reproducing
internally the exact things that they
387
00:21:22,948 --> 00:21:27,360
existed to fight, like sexism inside
anti-racist and anti ~
388
00:21:27,740 --> 00:21:31,302
or you know organizations seeking ~ gender
equality,
389
00:21:31,302 --> 00:21:33,923
racism inside progressive organizations.
390
00:21:34,423 --> 00:21:37,291
Yeah, that's ~ that's the dark side of a
lot of this stuff.
391
00:21:38,207 --> 00:21:41,301
Yeah, it's definitely bleak and it's
consistent.
392
00:21:41,301 --> 00:21:44,075
And then there's the finding that I think
about the most,
393
00:21:44,075 --> 00:21:46,409
which is Gorsky named the culture of
martyrdom.
394
00:21:47,356 --> 00:21:48,978
Mm. That sounds interesting. Tell me more.
395
00:21:49,478 --> 00:21:52,962
It's an implicit expectation inside
movement culture,
396
00:21:52,962 --> 00:21:56,297
which is an amazing thing that there's a
movement culture,
397
00:21:56,297 --> 00:21:58,019
but that if you haven't been burned out,
398
00:21:58,019 --> 00:22:01,704
you weren't really committed. So this is
like the for ~ for those
399
00:22:01,704 --> 00:22:06,219
not steeped in this literature or this
this ~ part of culture,
400
00:22:06,219 --> 00:22:08,212
it's like the the CEOs.
401
00:22:07,082 --> 00:22:08,334
This is the no true Scotsman
402
00:22:08,334 --> 00:22:12,790
argument that a lot of the leftist
organizations like to like to easily call
upon,
403
00:22:12,790 --> 00:22:13,790
right?
404
00:22:13,534 --> 00:22:17,676
Right, or I'm thinking like something for
more of like of our time is
405
00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:20,287
the CEOs who brag about getting up earlier
and earlier,
406
00:22:20,287 --> 00:22:22,958
right? Like there's the four AM crowd and
the three AM crowd,
407
00:22:22,958 --> 00:22:24,739
and then if you're not if you didn't stay
up all night,
408
00:22:24,739 --> 00:22:27,600
you weren't really working. It's it's that
kind of thing,
409
00:22:26,322 --> 00:22:28,550
Okay. Sure.
410
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:28,800
right? So you feel guilty,
411
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,382
they make you feel guilty for wanting to
rest and wanting to restore yourself.
412
00:22:32,382 --> 00:22:34,643
And then, you know
413
00:22:33,937 --> 00:22:35,484
Because you're not you're not in the
grind.
414
00:22:36,224 --> 00:22:39,985
Right, exactly. So if you if you raise an
issue about being exhausted,
415
00:22:39,985 --> 00:22:41,726
then you're marked as not serious.
416
00:22:42,226 --> 00:22:46,400
Well, I I mean so essentially what you're
saying is that basically
417
00:22:46,521 --> 00:22:49,904
the movement kind of generates its own
attrition.
418
00:22:50,404 --> 00:22:52,625
Right. It's it's ~ eating their young,
419
00:22:52,625 --> 00:22:54,166
right, in a sense, or eating their own,
420
00:22:54,166 --> 00:22:57,407
~ in the the race to get the problem
solved.
421
00:22:57,407 --> 00:23:01,188
And I wanna be really clear about the
implication here because it is
uncomfortable.
422
00:23:01,188 --> 00:23:05,320
If exhaustion is the opponent's strategy
and your own side treats exhaustion
423
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,392
as a badge of honor, then your culture is
doing their work for them for free.
424
00:23:09,892 --> 00:23:13,355
Yeah, and I think I think that's kind of
the the point of all of this
425
00:23:13,355 --> 00:23:15,907
is that we have th when they win,
426
00:23:15,907 --> 00:23:21,541
it's both by design, but also your own
independent badge of honor that makes
427
00:23:21,541 --> 00:23:23,743
it feel like you've done more than you
really have.
428
00:23:24,243 --> 00:23:28,076
Right. And there's a related finding I
want to talk about from Christina Masleck,
429
00:23:28,076 --> 00:23:32,880
a scientist who's essentially the person
who built the modern research on burnout,
430
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:38,885
working with Gomez. and their observation
about activists specifically
431
00:23:38,885 --> 00:23:42,949
is that activism cultivates awareness of
enormous problems that
432
00:23:42,949 --> 00:23:45,050
the surrounding society will not
acknowledge.
433
00:23:45,050 --> 00:23:48,663
And that gap between what you can see and
what everyone else around
434
00:23:48,663 --> 00:23:52,947
you is willing to see produces a very
particular kind of pressure and isolation.
435
00:23:53,447 --> 00:24:00,399
Which then just feeds back directly in a
loop to ignite or reignite the burnout.
436
00:24:01,129 --> 00:24:05,013
Exactly, which in this case is driven by
just sort of an ongoing despair,
437
00:24:05,013 --> 00:24:09,237
right? an isolation, just a l a sense of
deep loneliness,
438
00:24:09,237 --> 00:24:13,241
lasting loneliness. Plus a culture that
says you're not allowed to mention that
it's
439
00:24:13,241 --> 00:24:16,574
breaking you, right? So you just gotta
grin and bear it while you're dealing with
440
00:24:16,574 --> 00:24:17,574
all of this.
441
00:24:17,864 --> 00:24:22,808
Can I can I say kind of what this what
this seems to be the most obvious part of
it?
442
00:24:23,553 --> 00:24:24,553
Please, by all means.
443
00:24:25,032 --> 00:24:27,828
And look, you know more about this than
than the research does,
444
00:24:27,828 --> 00:24:32,360
at least personally. ~ I just I I I think
it matters for this one.
445
00:24:33,301 --> 00:24:35,842
Yeah, and I I I hate to pull this card,
446
00:24:35,842 --> 00:24:38,274
so to speak, or I don't wanna make this
about me,
447
00:24:38,274 --> 00:24:42,696
but for the benefit of those who may be
going through this and feeling that
they're
448
00:24:42,696 --> 00:24:46,038
struggling alone. So if you haven't been
with the podcast for very long,
449
00:24:46,038 --> 00:24:50,230
or if you've wondered where I am in a
about eighty percent of the last
450
00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:55,613
few months episodes, I have been diagnosed
with young onset Parkinson's.
451
00:24:55,613 --> 00:24:58,174
And there's a whole lot to that.
452
00:24:58,174 --> 00:24:59,465
I'm not gonna go into a lot of detail,
453
00:24:59,465 --> 00:25:01,356
but essentially took my career
454
00:25:01,724 --> 00:25:05,996
option from me practicing the law is just
not an option for me anymore which i've
455
00:25:05,996 --> 00:25:10,768
talked about a little bit ~ but it also
takes away a good chunk of every
456
00:25:10,768 --> 00:25:14,210
day which i haven't talked about the
everyday stuff but you know there's
457
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:18,011
a a persistent sort of constant pain ~
458
00:25:18,132 --> 00:25:24,555
and ~ just things that interfere with your
ability to do basic things like
459
00:25:24,895 --> 00:25:27,136
sit in a chair for an hour and talk
460
00:25:28,018 --> 00:25:31,091
~ some days and many days I just can't do
that.
461
00:25:31,091 --> 00:25:36,716
And ~ so the thing you learn when your
body is making the decision for
462
00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:39,838
you is that pacing is not a moral failure,
463
00:25:39,838 --> 00:25:43,702
right? Like it's not me. This is not me
saying I need a break,
464
00:25:43,702 --> 00:25:46,924
I need some time off, I I need ~ you know,
465
00:25:46,924 --> 00:25:51,728
whatever mental health days. This is me
saying I can't get out of bed or
466
00:25:51,729 --> 00:25:55,722
I can't sit up straight for more than five
minutes without being in agony.
467
00:25:56,381 --> 00:25:57,381
Mm-hmm.
468
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,873
And ~ you know, you come from a a country
that's that prides itself
469
00:26:00,873 --> 00:26:03,566
on its Puritan work ethic. And you think,
470
00:26:03,566 --> 00:26:05,748
wow, you know, I'm just if I'm not working
hard,
471
00:26:05,748 --> 00:26:08,820
then I'm not contributing to my society,
472
00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:10,552
I'm not taking care of my family,
473
00:26:10,552 --> 00:26:12,380
providing the way I'm supposed to.
474
00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:16,256
And when that instinct becomes associated
with something like that,
475
00:26:16,256 --> 00:26:20,270
when you're feeling guilty for having a
degenerative disease that
476
00:26:20,270 --> 00:26:22,622
is affecting you and it's it's an
objective,
477
00:26:22,622 --> 00:26:24,023
real thing, it's not in your head.
478
00:26:24,023 --> 00:26:25,144
~
479
00:26:25,686 --> 00:26:28,339
That instinct is wrong. And so for me,
480
00:26:28,339 --> 00:26:31,003
I've had to learn the lesson over and over
and over again.
481
00:26:31,003 --> 00:26:34,457
~ because my body is teaching it to me
every morning when I wake up in
482
00:26:34,457 --> 00:26:35,457
the middle of the night.
483
00:26:35,638 --> 00:26:39,426
So can you kind of lay out what the lesson
actually is?
484
00:26:39,926 --> 00:26:43,958
So the the lesson here, one lesson here is
that the goal isn't the most
485
00:26:43,958 --> 00:26:48,141
you can do today. The goal is the most you
can do across the whole span.
486
00:26:48,141 --> 00:26:51,304
~ you know, you've all heard the saying,
487
00:26:51,304 --> 00:26:54,576
you you overestimate what you can do in a
year when you underestimate what
488
00:26:54,576 --> 00:26:58,769
you can do in ten years. ~ that's that's
kind of the difference we're talking about
489
00:26:58,769 --> 00:27:02,302
here is just like keep in mind the big
picture because there are gonna
490
00:27:02,302 --> 00:27:04,113
be days where you just can't do it.
491
00:27:04,113 --> 00:27:06,495
And it's not an option, it's not
something,
492
00:27:06,495 --> 00:27:08,256
you know, pretending is not the answer.
493
00:27:08,756 --> 00:27:11,347
So when the research says culture of
martyrdom,
494
00:27:11,347 --> 00:27:13,127
I don't experience that as an abstraction.
495
00:27:13,127 --> 00:27:15,858
It's the thing that would have taken
everything from me faster if
496
00:27:15,858 --> 00:27:17,208
I'd been allowed to keep obeying it,
497
00:27:17,208 --> 00:27:22,020
right? If I just said, I know that my you
know toe is like curled in like
498
00:27:22,020 --> 00:27:25,020
a pretzel right now and it's agony to take
a step,
499
00:27:25,020 --> 00:27:27,198
but I should keep doing it because it's
the you know,
500
00:27:27,198 --> 00:27:31,272
it's the only way to do what matters and
and to be a contributing member of
society,
501
00:27:31,272 --> 00:27:36,584
~ then that would have you know caused my
pr disease to progress even faster.
502
00:27:37,388 --> 00:27:38,569
Yeah. And that's hard.
503
00:27:39,069 --> 00:27:42,782
Yeah, it it is. And ~ but we need to
understand that rest is not
504
00:27:42,782 --> 00:27:48,487
a withdrawal from the mission ~ or the
fight when the attrition is the fight,
505
00:27:48,487 --> 00:27:52,660
right? Like again, don't do the other
side's work for them.
506
00:27:52,660 --> 00:27:56,964
Don't put yourself in an early grave
trying to solve the problem that
507
00:27:56,964 --> 00:28:01,817
no one else can see. And that's not I'm
not saying that as like a ~ you know,
508
00:28:01,817 --> 00:28:07,722
a placebo pill to just say take this
little saying and and rest easy.
509
00:28:08,414 --> 00:28:11,165
It's actually a strategic claim and and
I'm happy to defend it.
510
00:28:11,665 --> 00:28:15,618
Yeah, I mean that's kind of the it
sometimes it can feel like a platitude,
511
00:28:15,618 --> 00:28:17,490
right? But I mean I I understand what
you're saying,
512
00:28:17,490 --> 00:28:21,114
like and I I I hear from your experience,
513
00:28:21,114 --> 00:28:24,537
personally. ~ Well,
514
00:28:24,537 --> 00:28:29,171
so I guess the next part is kind of what
I've been waiting for,
515
00:28:29,171 --> 00:28:32,504
and that's the the forty year old research
that annoys me.
516
00:28:33,004 --> 00:28:36,265
Is it the research that annoys you or the
people ignoring the research that annoys
517
00:28:36,265 --> 00:28:39,647
you? Yeah,
518
00:28:36,811 --> 00:28:38,682
~ you know, it depends on the day.
519
00:28:38,682 --> 00:28:39,983
~ depends
520
00:28:39,647 --> 00:28:40,647
right.
521
00:28:39,983 --> 00:28:43,346
on on my on how many spoons I've I woke up
with this morning.
522
00:28:43,346 --> 00:28:47,458
So yeah. ~ Yes,
523
00:28:43,904 --> 00:28:47,952
Fair enough. So Karl Vik. Tell us about
Carl Vik.
524
00:28:47,979 --> 00:28:50,811
Karl Vik is an American psychologist from
1984.
525
00:28:50,811 --> 00:28:56,745
~ he had a paper called Small Wins
Redefining the Scale of Social Problems.
526
00:28:56,745 --> 00:29:01,788
And that's the the sentence I want you to
kind of hear and how well
527
00:29:01,788 --> 00:29:04,670
it describes what we've spent twenty
minutes talking about,
528
00:29:04,670 --> 00:29:05,670
right? He wrote
529
00:29:05,961 --> 00:29:09,471
That the massive scale on which social
problems
530
00:29:09,552 --> 00:29:14,085
are conceived often precludes innovative
action.
531
00:29:14,585 --> 00:29:18,217
precludes, not just discourages and and
that's important because I think
532
00:29:18,217 --> 00:29:21,019
for you and I this hits right close to
home because depending on the day,
533
00:29:21,019 --> 00:29:23,181
one of us you're likely to hear one of us
telling the other one,
534
00:29:23,181 --> 00:29:24,492
Yeah, but what do we do about it?
535
00:29:24,492 --> 00:29:25,682
Like there's just nothing that can be
done.
536
00:29:25,682 --> 00:29:26,682
It's too big a problem.
537
00:29:27,298 --> 00:29:33,501
Right. But it it does he says precludes
means makes it impossible.
538
00:29:33,501 --> 00:29:37,883
But then he also then goes on to give them
a mechanism.
539
00:29:37,883 --> 00:29:41,114
And now I want you to remember this is
like nineteen eighty four,
540
00:29:41,114 --> 00:29:44,305
okay? This is the year I was born.
541
00:29:43,759 --> 00:29:45,001
Not Orwell's nineteen eighty four,
542
00:29:44,305 --> 00:29:46,338
You were you were two, right. Well
543
00:29:45,001 --> 00:29:46,242
but actually nineteen eighty four.
544
00:29:46,338 --> 00:29:48,567
I mean, you know, is there any difference
anymore?
545
00:29:48,567 --> 00:29:54,910
But he basically says it's because bounded
rationality is exceeded.
546
00:29:55,820 --> 00:30:00,216
And dysfunctional levels of arousal are
induced.
547
00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:02,017
Clear, right, Crystal?
548
00:30:02,114 --> 00:30:04,673
Sure, sure. Crystal mud.
549
00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:10,424
Right. Bounded rationality exceeded means
that the problem is basically bigger than
550
00:30:10,424 --> 00:30:14,168
the amount of thinking that a single human
can bring to it,
551
00:30:14,168 --> 00:30:17,310
right? So you can't reason your way to the
next step.
552
00:30:17,310 --> 00:30:23,956
And then dysfunctional arousal is a very ~
three dollar college
553
00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:27,419
explanation of saying that you get so
554
00:30:28,149 --> 00:30:31,442
triggered so activated that you
essentially become useless.
555
00:30:31,442 --> 00:30:36,215
Just frozen and spinning you know,
556
00:30:36,215 --> 00:30:39,839
you've got you've got forty tabs open in
your browser and y you have
557
00:30:39,839 --> 00:30:41,490
to close them all because you're just
done.
558
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:45,434
Sounds like hell on earth. ~ but it also
sounds like the Flood
559
00:30:45,434 --> 00:30:48,858
the Zone effect thirty four years before
Bannon named the the tactic.
560
00:30:49,433 --> 00:30:51,845
Yeah, I mean he described I wish it was
thirty-four.
561
00:30:51,845 --> 00:30:54,607
It's like
562
00:30:53,542 --> 00:30:54,542
'Cause well.
563
00:30:54,687 --> 00:30:56,529
it's it's getting to be a little bit more,
564
00:30:56,529 --> 00:30:59,851
but he he described that effect before
Bannon named it.
565
00:30:59,851 --> 00:31:04,365
And and the reason why that matters is
that he wasn't writing about propaganda
566
00:31:04,365 --> 00:31:09,139
at the time. He was writing about why well
intentioned people like you
567
00:31:09,139 --> 00:31:15,964
or me or anybody listening here who care a
shit ton about real problems consistently
568
00:31:15,964 --> 00:31:18,256
fail to do anything about them.
569
00:31:18,756 --> 00:31:23,993
Which means the flood has not ever been a
new invention.
570
00:31:23,993 --> 00:31:27,488
It's a deliberate manufacture,
571
00:31:27,488 --> 00:31:33,366
it's a deliberate product of a failure
state we already knew that people had.
572
00:31:33,866 --> 00:31:35,952
I'm gonna step out of my lane here for a
second,
573
00:31:35,952 --> 00:31:37,848
but it sounds like an exploit.
574
00:31:37,848 --> 00:31:38,922
Is that the right word for that?
575
00:31:39,422 --> 00:31:43,895
yes. I mean in a way, right? In a lot of
ways,
576
00:31:43,895 --> 00:31:48,908
in fact, they this is this has been the
Republican tactic for for a good number
577
00:31:48,908 --> 00:31:53,230
of years now. Essentially find the
loophole and then exploit it.
578
00:31:53,230 --> 00:31:55,522
I mean so exploit is I think is a perfect
word for that,
579
00:31:55,522 --> 00:32:01,255
right? They basically found a
vulnerability in the the machinery,
580
00:32:01,255 --> 00:32:06,288
and then they just scaled up and
industrialized that specific workaround.
581
00:32:07,198 --> 00:32:08,959
And and Vike, in the same paper,
582
00:32:08,959 --> 00:32:10,230
he actually gives the counter.
583
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:14,612
He calls it a small win. And he's specific
about the definition.
584
00:32:14,612 --> 00:32:17,614
A small win, he he says, is it's a
concrete,
585
00:32:17,614 --> 00:32:22,197
complete outcome of moderate importance.
586
00:32:22,197 --> 00:32:25,238
So not only was it concrete, it was
complete,
587
00:32:25,238 --> 00:32:26,599
but it was moderate.
588
00:32:27,099 --> 00:32:28,585
And each of those words matters,
589
00:32:28,585 --> 00:32:29,585
right?
590
00:32:29,782 --> 00:32:33,273
Yes, and each of those words in their own
fashion is kind of like
591
00:32:33,273 --> 00:32:35,634
a cornerstone of of of the wall.
592
00:32:35,634 --> 00:32:37,615
It's the it's the load bearing structure,
593
00:32:37,615 --> 00:32:39,976
it's the steel beam that runs up the brick
wall.
594
00:32:39,976 --> 00:32:45,709
Concrete he he ~ goes on to mention that
it's it's a real thing in the real world,
595
00:32:45,709 --> 00:32:47,720
right? It's not like a raised awareness,
596
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,951
it's not something we're just noticing
from from the periphery.
597
00:32:50,951 --> 00:32:52,482
And then he says
598
00:32:51,779 --> 00:32:52,779
Not vibes.
599
00:32:52,482 --> 00:32:54,622
that right. He says it's complete,
600
00:32:54,622 --> 00:32:55,823
meaning it's done.
601
00:32:56,135 --> 00:32:58,370
Right? It's not like phase one of nine,
602
00:32:58,370 --> 00:33:02,910
it's it's the whole thing. And then
moderate means that you have deliberately,
603
00:33:02,910 --> 00:33:06,499
on purpose, just not tried to solve the
whole thing.
604
00:33:06,999 --> 00:33:08,668
Which for some people sounds like giving
up.
605
00:33:09,168 --> 00:33:11,099
I think for most people it sounds like
giving up,
606
00:33:11,099 --> 00:33:13,589
right? Bec and it feels like giving up.
607
00:33:13,589 --> 00:33:16,310
But it the truth is it's kind of the
opposite.
608
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:20,712
And and Vik lists why. And this is the
part that you know,
609
00:33:20,712 --> 00:33:25,392
if you need to to make a cat poster about
it or or find your your platitude
610
00:33:25,392 --> 00:33:31,075
to live on, is that these properties are
exactly what you need
611
00:33:31,075 --> 00:33:34,046
in the specific situation we are in right
now.
612
00:33:34,546 --> 00:33:37,702
Think the right image for this
motivational poster is the dumpster fire,
613
00:33:37,702 --> 00:33:39,245
right? The the dumpster fire meme.
614
00:33:39,245 --> 00:33:43,073
But nice.
615
00:33:39,871 --> 00:33:41,712
I like I like cat with machine gun,
616
00:33:41,712 --> 00:33:43,893
kitten with machine gun. Yeah,
617
00:33:43,073 --> 00:33:46,160
I I I hear ya. Yeah.
618
00:33:43,893 --> 00:33:45,055
I think I think it's a better one.
619
00:33:45,055 --> 00:33:46,396
So
620
00:33:48,297 --> 00:33:52,600
one, small wins preserve your gains,
621
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,942
right? I mean they're they're they're
losing,
622
00:33:54,942 --> 00:33:56,673
you know, if you lose the war,
623
00:33:56,673 --> 00:33:59,305
that's a sad thing, but if you if you're
winning battles,
624
00:33:59,305 --> 00:34:01,797
you have to kind of close it, right?
625
00:34:01,797 --> 00:34:04,709
You say, I won, and then it's done,
626
00:34:04,709 --> 00:34:06,160
and it's behind you.
627
00:34:06,660 --> 00:34:07,912
Okay, what's number two?
628
00:34:08,412 --> 00:34:10,954
Basically you can't unravel them,
629
00:34:10,954 --> 00:34:14,597
right? So two, because they're finished,
630
00:34:14,597 --> 00:34:18,280
right? There's no half finished structure
that collapses once you stop pushing
631
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:19,631
on it. This isn't like, you know,
632
00:34:19,631 --> 00:34:22,284
I'm trying to keep the monster from
getting through the door.
633
00:34:22,284 --> 00:34:27,108
This is I can push the monster back long
enough to close the door,
634
00:34:27,108 --> 00:34:29,069
lock it, and then then we're just at the
next door.
635
00:34:29,069 --> 00:34:32,092
We don't have to worry about losing
ground.
636
00:34:32,092 --> 00:34:35,034
We just keep pushing forward. Right?
637
00:34:35,034 --> 00:34:36,175
So there you
638
00:34:36,777 --> 00:34:38,689
Basically when you stop pushing on it,
639
00:34:38,689 --> 00:34:44,366
it you still have the the the the small
wind to fall back in and
640
00:34:44,366 --> 00:34:47,069
and relax before you push on to the next
the next door.
641
00:34:47,997 --> 00:34:50,044
Right, 'cause it's done when you stop with
each one.
642
00:34:50,044 --> 00:34:52,191
So ~ what's three?
643
00:34:52,691 --> 00:34:56,413
So basically each one requires less
coordination to execute.
644
00:34:56,413 --> 00:34:57,824
It's this it's the ladder theory,
645
00:34:57,824 --> 00:35:02,646
right? If you tried to jump up ten feet in
one go,
646
00:35:02,646 --> 00:35:06,749
every time you jumped up, you would have
to fall back down to the first rung
647
00:35:07,069 --> 00:35:09,370
or the floor the floor. But with a ladder,
648
00:35:09,370 --> 00:35:14,393
you create individual steps. And each step
is its own win and feels small.
649
00:35:14,393 --> 00:35:18,415
But the next thing you do is you turn
around and you realize you're
650
00:35:18,415 --> 00:35:20,676
at the next floor because now you've
651
00:35:20,839 --> 00:35:22,270
Climbed each one of these things.
652
00:35:22,270 --> 00:35:27,856
So basically, once you understand what
it's like to take a small first step,
653
00:35:27,856 --> 00:35:29,417
the second step is the exact same.
654
00:35:29,417 --> 00:35:30,708
It's just from a higher distance,
655
00:35:30,708 --> 00:35:37,355
right? So each of these, you don't need a
a coalition of forty organizations.
656
00:35:37,355 --> 00:35:39,236
You might just need four people to get to
step two.
657
00:35:40,157 --> 00:35:43,343
Okay, and ~ number four is kind of the one
that gave me pause.
658
00:35:43,343 --> 00:35:44,605
Tell us about that one.
659
00:35:44,957 --> 00:35:47,269
Yeah, so four four is kind of the one.
660
00:35:47,269 --> 00:35:53,776
Small wins are are relatively unaffected
by inter interruptions like changes
661
00:35:53,996 --> 00:35:56,659
in political administrations, for example.
662
00:35:57,159 --> 00:35:58,914
So that one's a little hard for me to wrap
my head around.
663
00:35:58,914 --> 00:35:59,914
Can you say more?
664
00:36:00,069 --> 00:36:04,602
So relatively unaffected by changes in
political administration.
665
00:36:04,602 --> 00:36:08,365
A guy wrote that in nineteen eighty-four
in a psychology journal,
666
00:36:08,365 --> 00:36:11,687
and it's kind of the single most relevant
sentence to this episode,
667
00:36:11,687 --> 00:36:15,740
because the flood is designed to make
everything contingent on
668
00:36:15,740 --> 00:36:19,893
one enormous binary that's that's years
away.
669
00:36:19,893 --> 00:36:23,205
And that basically you personally cannot
move to.
670
00:36:23,705 --> 00:36:25,368
Which is the change of an administration.
671
00:36:25,368 --> 00:36:28,674
But the but the small win is not
contingent on that.
672
00:36:28,674 --> 00:36:29,674
So you're saying.
673
00:36:29,091 --> 00:36:30,091
A small
674
00:36:29,644 --> 00:36:31,773
yeah, a small win doesn't care who won,
675
00:36:31,773 --> 00:36:33,261
right? Like it's completed, it's done.
676
00:36:33,761 --> 00:36:35,126
Hm. And the fifth?
677
00:36:35,948 --> 00:36:38,190
Yeah, th basically the subparts,
678
00:36:38,190 --> 00:36:42,354
each individual step can be reassembled
into different configurations,
679
00:36:42,354 --> 00:36:46,768
meaning it's a bunch of finished small
things that become the
680
00:36:46,768 --> 00:36:49,180
raw materials for something bigger later,
681
00:36:49,180 --> 00:36:52,923
in a shape that you really might not have
or could not have designed
682
00:36:52,923 --> 00:36:55,025
in the beginning and then just executed.
683
00:36:55,025 --> 00:36:59,679
But then you use each of those individual
winds to piece together into
684
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:01,341
a bigger picture of what you accomplished.
685
00:37:01,841 --> 00:37:05,026
So let's talk about how this fixes the
psychological problems we were talking
about
686
00:37:05,026 --> 00:37:06,619
because it's not just tactical.
687
00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:08,119
Sure.
688
00:37:08,571 --> 00:37:09,571
So if we go back to
689
00:37:09,402 --> 00:37:11,453
the MedTech and and Gur chain,
690
00:37:11,453 --> 00:37:14,565
right? Overload, then loss of efficiency,
691
00:37:14,565 --> 00:37:18,177
then withdrawal, right? The point of
failure is efficacy.
692
00:37:18,177 --> 00:37:20,409
It's the middle link. That's where people
are lost.
693
00:37:21,209 --> 00:37:27,354
Right, and a completed small win is just a
direct injection of efficacy that can't
694
00:37:27,354 --> 00:37:28,354
be undone.
695
00:37:28,405 --> 00:37:29,616
And it's the only thing that is,
696
00:37:29,616 --> 00:37:32,698
right? Like you can't talk somebody out of
learned helplessness.
697
00:37:32,698 --> 00:37:35,360
You can't argue a person into believing
that their actions matter,
698
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,702
especially when they have evidence of the
contrary.
699
00:37:37,702 --> 00:37:42,055
The only thing that reliably restores it
is an action that visibly produces
700
00:37:42,055 --> 00:37:46,048
a result. Progress, right? Which means
finishing something small isn't
701
00:37:46,048 --> 00:37:50,211
a consolation prize ~ at all. It's it's
the whole mechanism,
702
00:37:50,211 --> 00:37:51,211
right?
703
00:37:51,029 --> 00:37:55,468
Right, it is the mechanism. It's basically
how you kind of stick to
704
00:37:55,468 --> 00:37:59,325
the game because ultimately it's just a
small step that we've taken together.
705
00:37:59,825 --> 00:38:03,179
So there's one more piece of research that
I want to handle carefully because it's
706
00:38:03,179 --> 00:38:06,683
the most quoted and most abused in this
entire space.
707
00:38:07,183 --> 00:38:09,401
Yeah, is it that three and a half percent
thing?
708
00:38:10,374 --> 00:38:12,475
The 3.5% thing, you called it.
709
00:38:12,475 --> 00:38:16,200
So ~ Erica Chenowith and Maria Stefan,
710
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:22,666
they built a data set of 323 major
campaigns from 1900
711
00:38:22,666 --> 00:38:26,390
to 2006 and compared violent and
nonviolent ones.
712
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:30,394
Nonviolent campaigns succeeded 53% of the
time,
713
00:38:30,394 --> 00:38:32,476
violent ones 26%.
714
00:38:33,487 --> 00:38:35,096
That's just over double.
715
00:38:35,596 --> 00:38:40,242
Right, roughly double. If then that
finding is robust and it's genuinely
important
716
00:38:40,403 --> 00:38:45,239
because here's the the headline version is
the no nonviolent cam movement they
717
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,382
got there was no non nonviolent movement,
718
00:38:47,382 --> 00:38:50,175
sorry, they got three point five percent
of the population to participate
719
00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:53,410
in its peak and then failed to achieve its
goals.
720
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:58,719
And that number is now I mean it's it's
used within within progressive movements.
721
00:38:59,436 --> 00:39:02,380
Right, it's in every group chat and
Chinnawith herself has spent years trying
722
00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:05,755
to put reins on this because she published
cautionary updates.
723
00:39:05,755 --> 00:39:08,108
She wrote a whole book to add the
qualifications.
724
00:39:08,972 --> 00:39:12,744
So what are w what was she trying to kind
of say after the fact?
725
00:39:13,244 --> 00:39:16,466
She's saying, first of all, the number is
descriptive,
726
00:39:16,466 --> 00:39:18,836
not prescriptive, right? It's not telling
you what to do,
727
00:39:18,836 --> 00:39:20,039
it's telling you what they found.
728
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:22,011
'Cause it's a historical sample,
729
00:39:22,011 --> 00:39:23,452
it's not a formula and
730
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:23,523
So it's sort of
731
00:39:23,865 --> 00:39:25,792
like hindsight rather than foresight.
732
00:39:26,734 --> 00:39:28,646
Exactly. And she's saying, look,
733
00:39:28,646 --> 00:39:32,829
nobody can see the future. So it's not a
cheat code.
734
00:39:32,829 --> 00:39:36,363
Second, she says that she's trying to hit
the threshold that trying
735
00:39:36,363 --> 00:39:39,525
to hit the threshold without building a
broad constituency underneath
736
00:39:39,525 --> 00:39:41,377
it doesn't guarantee anything.
737
00:39:41,377 --> 00:39:45,160
And third, and this is the one that
actually changes what you do on a Tuesday,
738
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,063
she says the other factors are probably
just as important as the head count.
739
00:39:49,063 --> 00:39:52,196
Momentum, organization, strategic
leadership,
740
00:39:52,196 --> 00:39:53,196
and sustainability.
741
00:39:53,807 --> 00:39:56,056
So s sustainability is in her list.
742
00:39:56,733 --> 00:39:59,748
Right, and it's equally as important as
headcount.
743
00:39:59,748 --> 00:40:03,723
sustainability is in her own list of what
determines whether a movement wins,
744
00:40:03,723 --> 00:40:06,949
which ties this section straight back to
what we were saying about martyrdom.
745
00:40:06,949 --> 00:40:09,743
Not burning out is not adjacent to the
strategy,
746
00:40:09,743 --> 00:40:10,775
it's in the strategy.
747
00:40:11,275 --> 00:40:15,784
So I guess what what is that number
actually measuring then if it's not like
748
00:40:15,845 --> 00:40:16,845
we need to hit this?
749
00:40:17,278 --> 00:40:19,240
So this is the part that reframed it for
me.
750
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,603
The 3.5% isn't the cause of the win,
751
00:40:22,603 --> 00:40:26,006
it's a symptom of a condition that was
already true.
752
00:40:26,006 --> 00:40:29,169
If 3.5% of a country is in the street,
753
00:40:29,169 --> 00:40:32,502
that indicates far deeper support
underneath and it creates
754
00:40:32,502 --> 00:40:37,286
a sense of inevitability. And what that
does mechanically is produce defections
from
755
00:40:37,286 --> 00:40:40,029
the pillars that hold the thing up
business,
756
00:40:40,029 --> 00:40:43,272
political, cultural, media, security
services.
757
00:40:44,098 --> 00:40:47,434
Those pillars are kind of s the support
system behind the mechanism.
758
00:40:48,158 --> 00:40:51,080
Right. And the the the part of the iceberg
that's beneath the surface,
759
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,363
but when you see the the smaller the the
ten percent above the water,
760
00:40:55,363 --> 00:40:57,704
you see enough of those and you start
thinking,
761
00:40:57,704 --> 00:40:59,816
wow, there's no way I'm making it through
here and you turn back.
762
00:40:59,816 --> 00:41:02,818
So that's what I think what she's kind of
saying is that the three
763
00:41:02,818 --> 00:41:03,899
and a half percent showing up,
764
00:41:03,899 --> 00:41:05,119
that's the tip of the iceberg,
765
00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:06,290
that once you become aware of it,
766
00:41:06,290 --> 00:41:08,191
you realize there's something actually
going on here.
767
00:41:08,191 --> 00:41:09,792
So the
768
00:41:09,454 --> 00:41:10,454
Right.
769
00:41:09,792 --> 00:41:11,974
the crowd is the signal that the pillars
are about to move.
770
00:41:12,474 --> 00:41:16,940
So that kind of changes what your job is
in the in the grander scheme.
771
00:41:17,916 --> 00:41:21,078
Exactly. Changes it enormously because if
you thought your job was to
772
00:41:21,078 --> 00:41:23,309
be number body number three point five
percent,
773
00:41:23,309 --> 00:41:25,580
right? To to get over that that threshold,
774
00:41:25,580 --> 00:41:27,881
that's a job you do once a year.
775
00:41:27,881 --> 00:41:30,323
And it doesn't feel like it does anything.
776
00:41:30,323 --> 00:41:34,714
Because if your job is to make defection
thinkable for one person inside
777
00:41:34,714 --> 00:41:37,056
of an institution, that's a job you can do
on a Wednesday.
778
00:41:37,056 --> 00:41:39,327
And there are a lot more of those jobs
than there are marches.
779
00:41:40,141 --> 00:41:42,540
Well, in effect that's kind of a small
win,
780
00:41:42,540 --> 00:41:44,287
right? Like it's a small step up the
ladder.
781
00:41:45,105 --> 00:41:47,081
Exactly right. Concrete, complete,
782
00:41:47,081 --> 00:41:48,081
and moderate.
783
00:41:48,153 --> 00:41:51,358
Okay, so let's see if we can we can land
this plane.
784
00:41:51,358 --> 00:41:57,951
the standard move here is kind of a list
of action items that everybody nods
785
00:41:57,951 --> 00:41:59,735
at and nobody actually does.
786
00:42:00,235 --> 00:42:01,480
And we have a rule about that.
787
00:42:01,992 --> 00:42:04,293
Right, so nobody's calling their senator
on this show.
788
00:42:04,293 --> 00:42:09,386
~ I checked. ~ nobody mentions the overlap
on any of the FOIA requests
789
00:42:09,386 --> 00:42:11,537
I placed to any senator that I could find.
790
00:42:11,537 --> 00:42:14,958
So here's what I've actually got,
791
00:42:14,958 --> 00:42:18,620
and and none of these actually comes out
to something we just cited.
792
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:20,120
Go for it.
793
00:42:20,254 --> 00:42:25,908
So one, pick a lane and let the rest go on
purpose.
794
00:42:25,908 --> 00:42:31,002
Not out of like laziness as a decision you
make once out loud,
795
00:42:31,002 --> 00:42:32,894
ideally with a witness present.
796
00:42:32,894 --> 00:42:38,198
Because the flood only works if you accept
the framing that everything
797
00:42:38,238 --> 00:42:41,460
is equally urgent and equally yours.
798
00:42:41,460 --> 00:42:46,504
It's not equally yours. You are the
marginal difference on most of it.
799
00:42:46,504 --> 00:42:49,447
And pretending that you're not is how you
end up being.
800
00:42:49,809 --> 00:42:51,481
The marginal difference on none of
801
00:42:51,981 --> 00:42:52,981
It was number two.
802
00:42:53,570 --> 00:42:57,741
Yeah, so triage by staffing and
appropriation,
803
00:42:57,741 --> 00:43:01,332
not by volume. We did kind of like the
tells earlier,
804
00:43:01,332 --> 00:43:03,341
what makes it look like, you know,
805
00:43:03,341 --> 00:43:05,193
i it's trying to flood the zone.
806
00:43:05,193 --> 00:43:09,754
And a a quiet thing with money and hires
behind it is real.
807
00:43:09,754 --> 00:43:14,276
We already said that. A loud thing with a
podium and nobody behind it
808
00:43:14,276 --> 00:43:18,977
is kind of theater. So if you only have
bandwidth for one thing a week,
809
00:43:18,977 --> 00:43:21,228
spend it on something with
810
00:43:21,558 --> 00:43:23,992
a docket number and not something with a
hashtag,
811
00:43:23,992 --> 00:43:27,467
right? Like don't don't repost somebody
else's post.
812
00:43:27,467 --> 00:43:29,510
Like choose to do a thing. Use,
813
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:34,237
you know, fivecalls dot org or something
and and just do that this week.
814
00:43:34,237 --> 00:43:37,802
That is enough because it's a small win.
815
00:43:38,302 --> 00:43:41,504
And number three is mine, because it goes
back to the martyrdom issue.
816
00:43:41,504 --> 00:43:43,866
Schedule the rest before you need it,
817
00:43:43,866 --> 00:43:46,388
and don't frame it as a reward for having
earned it.
818
00:43:46,388 --> 00:43:52,212
That framing is exactly the thing that
Kors Korski's participants describe being
819
00:43:52,212 --> 00:43:56,295
socialized into, and it's the one that
pushed people out of movements entirely.
820
00:43:56,295 --> 00:43:59,478
Rest that you have to earn is rest you
will never take.
821
00:43:59,978 --> 00:44:02,609
And I'll do four. Do it with other people.
822
00:44:02,609 --> 00:44:05,180
~ I mean, in a lot of things, right?
823
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:07,691
But ~ I'll be specific about why,
824
00:44:07,691 --> 00:44:10,762
because i it's not it's not a warm
sentiment,
825
00:44:10,762 --> 00:44:15,594
right? Isolation shows up as a documented
cause in this research.
826
00:44:15,594 --> 00:44:20,806
So Maslak and Gomez, ~ on the gap between
what you see and what
827
00:44:20,806 --> 00:44:23,016
the people around you actually
acknowledge,
828
00:44:23,016 --> 00:44:27,958
being the only person in your life who is
tracking a thing is not just lonely.
829
00:44:27,958 --> 00:44:29,519
It is a known
830
00:44:30,271 --> 00:44:32,855
Fire starter of burnout, right?
831
00:44:32,855 --> 00:44:35,691
So fixing that is not optional wellness,
832
00:44:35,691 --> 00:44:39,237
it's maintenance on the movement that
you're building.
833
00:44:39,737 --> 00:44:41,139
And take us out with number five.
834
00:44:41,742 --> 00:44:44,704
Yeah, so five is just finish something.
835
00:44:44,704 --> 00:44:47,615
Like actually finish it. Something small,
836
00:44:47,615 --> 00:44:50,497
something concrete, complete this month,
837
00:44:50,497 --> 00:44:52,808
this week, this day, whatever that is.
838
00:44:52,808 --> 00:44:57,541
Get one ordinance changed. Find one thing
that you really care about
839
00:44:57,541 --> 00:45:00,812
and just push it as far as you can with
reason,
840
00:45:00,812 --> 00:45:04,585
with other people. File one FOIA request,
841
00:45:04,585 --> 00:45:07,356
right? And read what actually gets back to
you.
842
00:45:07,356 --> 00:45:10,538
And then write something out to your
community that explains.
843
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,913
Why this is messed up and it and we need
to fix it.
844
00:45:13,913 --> 00:45:16,366
Get a thing fixed at your kids' school,
845
00:45:16,366 --> 00:45:21,021
right? Show up to one county commission
meeting where twelve people are
846
00:45:21,021 --> 00:45:25,386
in the room and your presence is a
measurable percentage of everyone there.
847
00:45:25,886 --> 00:45:27,863
And that last one is not a constellation
prize,
848
00:45:27,863 --> 00:45:29,759
which is the point of the whole Vike
section.
849
00:45:30,119 --> 00:45:34,654
Right. Efficacy is the link in the chain
where people are lost.
850
00:45:34,654 --> 00:45:41,401
And the only thing that restores that
efficacy is a completed action with a
real,
851
00:45:41,401 --> 00:45:46,386
tangible result. And you cannot get there
by like reading another article
852
00:45:46,386 --> 00:45:50,430
or reading another news c p cast or
listening to another podcast.
853
00:45:50,430 --> 00:45:52,963
Reading more is what broke this whole
thing.
854
00:45:53,463 --> 00:45:56,865
And that that brings me to one that I
wanna add that's not on your list.
855
00:45:57,162 --> 00:45:58,162
Sure, go ahead.
856
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:00,145
Write down what you think is going to
happen.
857
00:46:00,145 --> 00:46:03,234
Make a prediction. Actually write it down
with the date.
858
00:46:03,234 --> 00:46:04,699
And then go back and look.
859
00:46:05,199 --> 00:46:06,316
Well, okay, so what's the point in that?
860
00:46:06,816 --> 00:46:10,517
Two reasons. One, it's the only defense
against the flood's memory problem.
861
00:46:10,517 --> 00:46:14,099
Right. So if everything that you think
about or everything everything you're told
862
00:46:14,099 --> 00:46:18,181
is a a flaming mess right now is being
replaced every 90 minutes,
863
00:46:18,181 --> 00:46:21,402
you lose the ability to notice that
something that you were told
864
00:46:21,402 --> 00:46:23,283
was inevitable didn't happen, right?
865
00:46:23,283 --> 00:46:26,014
Remember all the the disasters that never
occurred.
866
00:46:26,014 --> 00:46:30,246
~ and two, it's how you find out you were
sometimes right,
867
00:46:30,246 --> 00:46:33,177
which you were. You will be. ~ you know,
868
00:46:33,177 --> 00:46:35,838
you're making educated guesses or
forecasts here.
869
00:46:36,618 --> 00:46:38,480
So when you're right, it's worth noticing
that you're right.
870
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,154
And you've been right about things and the
and the pace of things
871
00:46:41,154 --> 00:46:42,836
has just stolen your ability to notice.
872
00:46:42,836 --> 00:46:47,852
Right. You can't even log those wins
because you're so busy on the next thing
before
873
00:46:47,852 --> 00:46:49,705
you even have time to reflect on what you
did.
874
00:46:49,705 --> 00:46:52,188
And that theft is part of why you're
tired.
875
00:46:52,945 --> 00:46:55,879
Yeah, it's kinda like it's kinda like the
dory like goldfish thing,
876
00:46:55,879 --> 00:47:00,934
right? The goldfish memory where it just
keeps being refreshed every time that
877
00:47:00,934 --> 00:47:03,038
the the water moves by, right?
878
00:47:03,038 --> 00:47:07,003
I think I think that that that's a a good
example of of what we mean
879
00:47:07,244 --> 00:47:08,365
in order to write it down. Sort
880
00:47:08,010 --> 00:47:09,010
Right.
881
00:47:08,365 --> 00:47:11,249
of like journaling, right? It's so you
it's so you can count your wins.
882
00:47:11,749 --> 00:47:15,678
Right. The goldfish of course comes from
the same science with the the frog
883
00:47:15,678 --> 00:47:18,053
in the boiling pot, but but it it makes
the point.
884
00:47:18,053 --> 00:47:21,440
And so for that reason I think we should
take our own advice on this,
885
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:22,703
~ this one by the way.
886
00:47:23,490 --> 00:47:26,330
Yeah, I think we should we should and and
I think we're going to.
887
00:47:26,330 --> 00:47:29,151
we've talked about this and we'll get to
that in just a second.
888
00:47:29,151 --> 00:47:33,282
So here here's where where I've landed,
889
00:47:33,282 --> 00:47:36,473
and I'm and I'm not gonna tie a bow on it
because there isn't a bow to
890
00:47:36,473 --> 00:47:39,354
be had for this, but they are winning some
of it.
891
00:47:39,354 --> 00:47:42,635
Not all of it. The birthright order is
dead,
892
00:47:42,635 --> 00:47:46,436
six to three, the DI provisions are live
and they're enforcing them.
893
00:47:46,436 --> 00:47:49,056
Both of those are true this month,
894
00:47:49,056 --> 00:47:51,777
and and I can't change that. Right?
895
00:47:51,777 --> 00:47:52,777
So
896
00:47:52,617 --> 00:47:56,588
Half of that alone is just selling you
permission to stop paying attention,
897
00:47:56,588 --> 00:47:59,067
and that's the same thing in different
rap.
898
00:47:59,567 --> 00:48:02,511
And the exhaustion is real, and it is
manufactured,
899
00:48:02,511 --> 00:48:06,716
and those are not intention. It can be a
genuine feeling in your body
900
00:48:06,756 --> 00:48:09,900
and an intended output of someone's
strategy at the same time.
901
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:12,363
Most of the worst things are both.
902
00:48:12,875 --> 00:48:16,176
Yeah, I I don't want to steal the former
press secretary's words,
903
00:48:16,176 --> 00:48:19,478
but d she she often liked to say both can
be true,
904
00:48:19,478 --> 00:48:24,610
right? ~ so I I think the thing that I
want to leave people with is
905
00:48:24,610 --> 00:48:27,451
the reframe on tiredness, right?
906
00:48:27,451 --> 00:48:32,503
If if attrition getting you to leave so
that you can be replaced by somebody else
907
00:48:32,503 --> 00:48:39,100
is the mechanism, then your continued
existence in this fight in eighteen
months,
908
00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:41,697
in in three years, is itself
909
00:48:42,293 --> 00:48:47,997
The resource, right? You lasting is not
the precondition for the work.
910
00:48:47,997 --> 00:48:53,570
It is the work. There's no version of you
where burnout in March the
911
00:48:53,570 --> 00:48:56,801
and and and where basically you're just
done,
912
00:48:56,801 --> 00:48:59,603
right? And that was the strategically
correct call.
913
00:49:00,103 --> 00:49:03,025
Right, like an early flame out is not is
never optimal.
914
00:49:03,025 --> 00:49:06,767
~ and the thing I want to leave people
with is a little bit smaller,
915
00:49:06,767 --> 00:49:09,409
but you you're allowed to not know about
something.
916
00:49:09,409 --> 00:49:11,300
You're allowed to have missed it.
917
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:13,977
You know, when the when the group brings
up like the did you hear about this,
918
00:49:13,977 --> 00:49:16,733
did you hear about that? It's okay if you
didn't hear about that.
919
00:49:16,733 --> 00:49:19,175
You're not the answer to every problem.
920
00:49:19,175 --> 00:49:21,276
And there are a number of things happening
right now,
921
00:49:21,276 --> 00:49:24,478
and the number of things happening right
now exceeds what a human being,
922
00:49:24,478 --> 00:49:26,129
a single human being, can hold in their
head.
923
00:49:26,995 --> 00:49:29,833
And the fact that you cannot hold all of
it is not a referendum on whether you're
924
00:49:29,833 --> 00:49:33,212
a good person. It's just arithmetic and
biology.
925
00:49:33,212 --> 00:49:35,399
And somebody did the arithmetic on
purpose.
926
00:49:35,899 --> 00:49:39,836
So essentially we're saying just like pick
a thing and then finish it.
927
00:49:39,836 --> 00:49:44,195
And then tell somebody that you finished
it and take a nap.
928
00:49:44,695 --> 00:49:46,402
And come back next week if if you can.
929
00:49:47,247 --> 00:49:48,538
Right, and and come back next week.
930
00:49:48,538 --> 00:49:51,981
But before you go, we're gonna do the
thing Will said on the record so
931
00:49:51,981 --> 00:49:54,482
we can be held to it. Here's ours.
932
00:49:54,482 --> 00:49:59,637
By the end of this year, we think at least
one more piece of what's currently being
933
00:49:59,637 --> 00:50:02,848
described as inevitable will be dead in
court,
934
00:50:02,848 --> 00:50:05,351
the way birthright was. We don't know
which one.
935
00:50:05,351 --> 00:50:10,485
We think the the male voter order is the
likeliest candidate given where
936
00:50:10,485 --> 00:50:15,679
it was a couple days ago. So we're gonna
come back and we're gonna check on that.
937
00:50:16,011 --> 00:50:18,527
Out loud and tell you if we were wrong.
938
00:50:19,027 --> 00:50:20,027
Which we might be.
939
00:50:20,628 --> 00:50:22,431
Yeah, we we very well might be,
940
00:50:22,431 --> 00:50:24,024
but that's kind of the point, right?
941
00:50:24,024 --> 00:50:27,701
We're the overlap. Everything we cited is
in the show notes and it's
942
00:50:27,701 --> 00:50:29,956
all real and you can go and read it for
yourself.
943
00:50:29,956 --> 00:50:33,382
And and please do because you should not
take our word for this either.
944
00:50:33,882 --> 00:50:37,850
And take care of yourselves. That's not a
sign off this week.
945
00:50:37,850 --> 00:50:38,936
That's homework.
946
00:50:39,408 --> 00:50:42,219
Yes. Make sure to do all of the liking
things.
947
00:50:42,219 --> 00:50:44,699
Give us five stars on your podcast app of
choice,
948
00:50:44,699 --> 00:50:46,540
Apple Spotify. Leave us a review.
949
00:50:46,540 --> 00:50:50,541
Send us an email at admin at
fof.foundation.
950
00:50:50,541 --> 00:50:52,501
Leave us a message on Blue Sky.
951
00:50:52,501 --> 00:50:55,382
Tag us in something you think we should
cover.
952
00:50:55,382 --> 00:50:58,203
Check out the website at FOF dot
foundation.
953
00:50:58,203 --> 00:51:00,134
Thank you so much for being here.
954
00:51:00,134 --> 00:51:01,204
We hope to see you next week.
955
00:51:01,704 --> 00:51:02,704
I
956
00:51:02,537 --> 00:51:03,537
Bye.