Abby Kramer: Welcome back, everyone. Welcome back to The Fringe. I'm Dr. Abby Kramer, the medical director at Fringe, and I'm so excited to have my good friends Carly and Rachel, or you might know them as Kale Blossom, on social media on the podcast today. Thanks for coming, guys.
carly & rachel: Thanks for having us. Yeah, happy to be here. Thank you.
Abby Kramer: Of course. So what I want to chat with you guys about today is how we've basically engineered the dirt out of childhood. And it turns out that like that's actually a really important thing for our kiddos. I mean, of course, adults too, right? But for us to like get dirty and we've kind of gotten super into like hygiene and sanitization in this day and age. Yep.
carly & rachel: We certainly have. Yes. Make dirt great again.
Abby Kramer: So I Yeah, we need that on a shirt. Absolutely. Make kids dirty again. So I'd love to hear from you guys, like, what is kind of the hygiene hypothesis? So, like, I mean, I don't even know how far back this goes. Certainly in 2020 it took a turn for the extreme, but really for a long time, I feel like we've been so focused on I remember in school it's like Wash your hands a thousand times a day, like stay away from germs, like wipe everything down. And like, how do you guys see that play out with like your communities, your people online, like the moms you're talking to?
carly & rachel: Yeah, it's funny. The first thing I think of is if you walk around these days and someone starts coughing, do you not get like everybody turns and looks at the person coughing and they're like, right? And I can
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: remember going to middle school and high school, completely stuffed up with a cold, coughing,
Abby Kramer: yeah.
carly & rachel: sneezing, and everybody did it. And it has changed so so much. And I think you're right, you know, with 2020 and the COVID, I think people have become even more germs and germs
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: are not necessarily our enemies, they're also our friends. It's
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: how our immune system learns and evolves. So they're a really important part of our Community, right? As individuals in our greater communities. I think for us, or speaking for myself, I think it takes on a whole new meaning when you finally become a mom and you have kiddos and you're letting them kind of free range and get dirty. My twins who are two and a half right now love mud. They just love
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: it. I mean like head to toe, slatter on the forehead.
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: And you know, it may be too that I'm a more relaxed mom in my 40s after, you know, six
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: kiddos, my first kiddo, maybe I wouldn't have been so. But the same thing at schools, we notice that too. It's like Lysol wipes and sanitizer and
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: the shh that's so, so rough on the respiratory system, the skin, the microbiome, and the gut. And I think so backstory for me, I worked for Metametrics before it was bought out by Genova. When I was first starting my practice. And literally I was a clinical educator, so doctors around the world would call in and I would help them go through their tests and come up with a treatment plan for their patients. And
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: most of the those tests were the stool analyses. So
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: it's so cool. So I got to look at microbiomes from around the world and I would ask things like, is this a mom of a kiddo that's like hand sanitizer all day long?
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: They would have the
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: most sterile guts. Or this is also why I don't eat sushi anymore, because sushi creates some really yucky bucks. Or like homemade kombucha. So we can go the other way
Abby Kramer: Wah wah. Yeah.
carly & rachel: too. I think even we're not talking about today, but like raw milk and kombucha and sushi versus like Lysol. It's like the sweet spot is probably more in the middle, but bacteria
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: germs are important.
Abby Kramer: Yeah. And I think so much of this is like just the modern world. Like every convenience we have, then there's a price to pay, right? So it's like our generations ago, you had no choice but to basically be around or on a farm. You know, you're around different animals, like dirt, you're not like hypersanitizing everything. And then you have the downside, more prone to like crazy diseases, right? But then the other side now, most of us live in like a very suburban, modern, like everything sanitized, you know, even like playgrounds. Some of these playgrounds, they like spray them down with crazy chemicals. I don't know. It's wild.
carly & rachel: It is. Yeah, and it's not good for our kids and we see it in practice too, you know, with the increase in things like skin issues and respiratory issues and then just recurrent infections. because again they're depleted. Depleted, and that's your body's largest immune defense. I remember one of my patients that sticks out, mom came in and she was one of those really hyper-vigilant moms. Not to, she's a great person, nothing against her. She was worried about her family, had her own health struggles. I saw her daughter and then her husband, and they had a bad mold issue in their home, which is you know a part of our environment, sometimes out
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: of our control. But she was using hand sanitizer like crazy. And her daughter had awful eczema. And I was like, we have got to stop the hand sanitizer. First and foremost, like let's baby step. And I think her her mind was so overwhelmed with toxins and kind of contamination in general. She thought it was like one way that she could control. So I think there's a control factor with moms, especially nowadays, because we want our kids to be healthy and then the vaccine debates and you know all the things.
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yeah.
carly & rachel: was very interesting because it was a natural she was making it at home with just like a plain essential oil so she's crunchy and making her own and I'm like okay
Abby Kramer: wow. Yeah. Yeah.
carly & rachel: let's start here and let's get a little bit dirty again
Abby Kramer: Yeah, yeah. Yep. Totally. So let's go into that. Like, do you guys give your patients like a literal prescription of you need to run around outside without shoes on or get in your garden? You know, what are you telling moms especially?
carly & rachel: Yeah, I mean it's super important for the whole family to get outside,
Abby Kramer: Mm.
carly & rachel: go play in the dirt, don't be afraid to get dirty, spend time outside. Now, we certainly aren't big proponents of maybe walking around the grocery store and going in public bathrooms with shoes on and then walking around house necessarily. We draw the line too. But yes,
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Yeah.
carly & rachel: you know, and there's studies that show kids who are exposed to, you know, farm life and pets, they're healthier. They have more immune systems than those who are not. So there's some great research, published research in that as well.
Abby Kramer: Yeah, I love that. I think there's a marker on I really love the tiny health test. Similar gut test, right?
carly & rachel: Yeah.
Abby Kramer: I'm sure you guys are familiar. They have a marker on there. I forget which one it is, but that also like if this is showing up positive on the test, like they're a hand sanitizer person. Like that's what that imbalance
carly & rachel: Yes, yeah.
Abby Kramer: is from. And it's so helpful, I think, for patients to see. Like, okay, you can't overdo it. in that way. And even though it's just on your hands, like it's affecting literally your gut. It's pretty wild.
carly & rachel: Mm-hmm. I I think sorry, nope, yep, go ahead. I think sometimes too we forget that it's okay to get sick once in a while. You know, we're
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm. Yep.
carly & rachel: so afraid to get our for ourselves to get sick. Our kids, of course, we don't like to see our children miserable. We don't like to be miserable, but it's okay to get sick once in a while. It's inconvenient, it's not fun, it disrupts your day and your work schedule, of course. But we need to get sick. Of course, it's an issue if you're not recovering. taking a while to recover and it's happening often, but getting sick is actually good for our body. So I think there's kind
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: of a mind shift that needs to happen as well, just as a as a society. And again,
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: I think the last handful of years kind of spun that around a bit, but we need to come back to that thought. We always say your immune system is like a piano, a musical instrument, or like when you're going to the gym and you're trying to strengthen
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: one muscle group, you have to give it some stress. You have to
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: work out the immune system. And it's good to get sick a couple times a year, but like you're saying, it's the ones that come in and say, I never get sick. Those are the ones we really worry about because then we know immune system resilience is not
Abby Kramer: Yeah. It's like most concerning. Yeah. Yep.
carly & rachel: Yes, yes, it's it's much more concerning. But something else that is such a kind of hypocrisy in the kind of medical world is here we are, like the the CDC and their hand washing guides and like the sterilization. You go into a hospital, it's like sterile, cold, steel, artificial lights, you know, as clean as possible. And then we look at vaccines and we're we're injecting little kiddos, especially with excipients. So we're we're basically making a sterile environment for the immune system. So it doesn't have any kind of exercise, and then we're injecting it with these artificial incipients that make the immune system go wild. So it's just we're totally missing the mark when you get down to the common sense of both of those in and of itself as well. And what's happening with big food and agriculture and you know post-World War II and the Industrial Revolution, we learned a lot of things, but we took it way too far. We created
Abby Kramer: Mm.
carly & rachel: way too many pesticides and chemicals and all these things that can do really cool things, but in the long run, it took us too far in the wrong direction.
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Correct. Because then even I mean, that's another kind of sterilization conversation. Our in a perfect world, our like produce comes with good healthy bacteria and like spores on it from the earth. But now we like freaking bleach everything, coat it in wax or whatever. So it never goes bad and then eat it. So we should be getting even through our food inoculated with like good positive bacteria and microbes. So yeah, it's a real issue.
carly & rachel: The reinoculation of of microbiome bacteria, especially, I did a paper on C-section born versus vaginal
Abby Kramer: Uh-huh.
carly & rachel: babies and talked about the vaginal swabbing.
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: I actually did my own twins because that was my only C-section method. Yeah, isn't it awesome? And
Abby Kramer: I did it too Yes.
carly & rachel: people like cringe in today's world. They're like, You did what? You're like, Yeah.
Abby Kramer: They think you're insane. I'm like, no, no. We're swabbing this. I don't care.
carly & rachel: Yeah, yeah. And I remember my midwife had to help us do it. My husband, you know, it was kind of like a secret op. Like we couldn't we didn't want the hospital to know because it they would not approve of it. So it's like they're doing this in secret. And
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
carly & rachel: you know what though? Like I have C-section twins and we don't have
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: any of the signific we don't have asthma, we don't have chronic
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: allergies, we don't have gut issues, we you know, it's like because
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep.
carly & rachel: we've re-inoculated the good vaginal microbiome
Abby Kramer: Correct.
carly & rachel: from mom that so many kids are missing by being born. C-section, which we know can be necessary, and then also not being breastfed. So that's a whole nother
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm. Yep.
carly & rachel: you know round of our our microbiome as babe missing out
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: when we the first thing that we give a newborn is artificial synthetic formula.
Abby Kramer: Right. When yeah, you should be getting like all that immune benefit, all the positive bacteria from mom. So then it's like from literally day one, some of these kids are just set off on like a different trajectory. And with really simple changes like that can be turned around. So wild.
carly & rachel: Yeah, absolutely.
Abby Kramer: Okay, so I'd love to talk about we talked a lot about like microbiome, all of this stuff. And a lot of this is due to like we live inside too much, right? We avoid sickness at all costs, like everyone's afraid to go anywhere. But then there's the conversation of all the other stuff we are missing out on from being indoors too much. Like I know you guys talk about this a lot too: circadian rhythm, vitamin D, being in the sun. That's also super important for like immune strength. And I mean, even back to the eczema conversation, like vitamin D is a huge issue with that. So I'd love to just hear you guys' opinions. opinion on that and what like simple things families can start incorporating in their routine to just prioritize this. Like we need to get outside more and get some sunshine.
carly & rachel: Yeah, isn't it interesting? One issue leads to the another, right? You know, I think really simple things like getting up in the morning and as a family, whether you eat breakfast outside or just step outside as a family and hang out for a few minutes, even even five or ten minutes can help. But just making it a point to get outside, going on family walk, going on a bike ride, playing outside, just spending as much time as you can in that fresh air because that's so important. And when we're outside, our kids want to be outside, right? So we're not like the
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep.
carly & rachel: now I would love to get outside first thing in the morning. It doesn't happen on school days. Usually. Certainly. Certainly. But definitely
Abby Kramer: Yep, yep.
carly & rachel: on the weekends. We're out there all the time. We rarely come in.
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: One thing we always tell our patients do is to burp your house regularly, open the front door, open the back door, open the windows, weather permitting, and at least get some fresh air, especially the newer homes that are so efficient. You know, we're just trapping
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: in all the building materials, the artificial light, everything. Definitely getting outside. We sit near the window. Sit near the window, go lay on the earth, just lay flat. You know, there was a cool study that showed people that laid on the earth versus didn't had lower blood pressure, lower pulse ox rates that are higher, better pulse ox. So it's like turning back to
Abby Kramer: So cool.
carly & rachel: nature. The the chemicals, the good chemicals that trees give off that can literally,
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: you know, boost the immune system. There was a cool study that just came out three days camping, not going back inside, it boosted your natural killer cells, T cells. It was like like exponential was wild from three days camping. No, we're not big campers, okay? Yeah. So we could like glamp, you know, and be outside, but we don't really want to breathe it. But the idea is yes,
Abby Kramer: Amazing. From three days. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm like actually I'm out, but I'll be outside all day and then go like sleep in my bed. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
carly & rachel: like we we are two indoors. That's a huge so we always check in on those kind of inventory details for those basic pillars of health. that we're missing out on in our go go go
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: fast-paced indoor artificial Lysol worlds.
Abby Kramer: Yep. I'd love to hear from you guys. This is kind of putting you on the spot a little bit. What is like one specific thing you feel like in childhood you grew up with that now you're trying to bring back to like your own children and their routine?
carly & rachel: That's a great question. My mom always cooked family dinners, and we always sat down most nights of the week the four of us. and she had the most beautiful. I wish we had pictures, you know, it wasn't like your cell phone, you know, snap me pictures.
Abby Kramer: Yeah, yeah.
carly & rachel: I don't know that we do, but the most beautiful herb garden. And each herb had its own, not very big, but rounded with stones that her and my dad found. took them like a year from we would go to different places and parks and and it was the most beautiful herb garden and she would dry them on racks and I remember seeing her use the herbs that she grew and then we'd sit down to eat the dinner. So
Abby Kramer: So cool.
carly & rachel: yeah, I really that's definitely something that I want to incorporate more and do it with my kiddos and let them see how we live off the land we eat the food that we grow. I mean we do the basics
Abby Kramer: Right. Right.
carly & rachel: like blueberry bushes and cherry tomatoes. Haven't gotten to the herb drying packs yet, but it's on my
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome.
carly & rachel: well and isn't it funny, you know, you can drive around a lot of neighborhoods right now and you know there's a lot of kids that live there and you don't see anybody outside. I
Abby Kramer: Correct.
carly & rachel: as a child, I was outside as soon as I could be and when it started
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: getting dark outside, I heard somebody yell or you kind of knew
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep.
carly & rachel: And you know, I guess maybe with technology and video games or whatever it might be, kids just don't go outside anymore. So that's been a big and again, I think it's by, you know, by leading and being outside ourselves and being active and just showing them that side of health without maybe explaining it that way. And it's so important. But we all need to get inside.
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep. Totally. I think part of the problem is like the screens and all that. Like I remember growing up it was like, go outside. I don't want you back in this house until it gets dark. Like, go find your friends, go to the woods,
carly & rachel: We didn't have a choice, right? They were like, get out. Yeah.
Abby Kramer: whatever you gotta do, but like come back for dinner and unless someone's bleeding, you know? Like we could use a little more of that. Yeah.
carly & rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, more creativity, nature, all those things. Kickball. We had a kickball get together at my house this weekend for my daughter's ninth birthday. So adults
Abby Kramer: So fun.
carly & rachel: and kids, we all played. It was so fun. It's just like good, clean fun, you know, and we're outside or messy dirty. Exactly. Yes. Ghosts in the graveyard, capture the flag.
Abby Kramer: That's the best. Yeah. That's the stuff we used to do. Or like night games. You guys play night games? The best. Yes. We need to bring back like night game Fridays or something. It'd be so fun. All right. Now I want to talk about some more ramifications of kind of this like modern issues we find ourselves in. Like the huge spikes in childhood illness. Right, like autoimmune through the roof, like namely like type one diabetes, celiac disease, eczema, asthma, ear infecta I mean, i we could go on and on, right? What do you guys mainly attribute this to? And I know there's many factors.
carly & rachel: That's a really hard one. You know, I think toxic our toxic buckets are rather full these days. and a lot of it we can't control, just kind of our surroundings. But, you know, being diligent about what we can do in our homes, what's it within reach, that makes sense for us. But I think just toxic burden is a big, big, big one. From in utero, which we're not blaming moms, but through, you know, through an age, it's There's just a lot of toxins out there. I think it we we can't have this discussion with talking about the childhood vaccine schedule and even if you are for some of them, wherever you land, we always try to be supportive, but it is overly aggressive compared to us eighties babies what we had. And those diseases were not increasing. So we have to look at that definitely square one. Certainly toxins, over 80,000 chemicals in everyday products like Windex to countercleaner, to toothpaste, to shampoo conditioner. that's a huge one. I think moms are more depleted and that goes back to soil and foods and processed, you know, junk food being easier, eas more easily accessible and cheaper. We just got to go down to a farm here in Georgia, White Oak Pastures. It was incredible six generation.
Abby Kramer: amazing. You guys went?
carly & rachel: It was and Will Harris, he's the main farmer, a legend. I mean it was we were in awe. It was one of the coolest experiences of our lives. But at one point he showed us two samples because his land butts up to his cousin's land, who actually just passed away and he's gonna try to buy it. But his soil was this beautiful dark, like fulvic acid. You could tell it was just very rich black. And his cousin's land was like a Georgia red clay, like barren of nutrients. Like that that 15 feet away. Fifteen feet away.
Abby Kramer: Wow Yeah. Next to each other.
carly & rachel: Yes. And that's how he has taken care of his land versus his cousin. You know, he's a regenerative
Abby Kramer: Crazy. Yeah.
carly & rachel: organic farmer who uses everything nose to tell and even processes the waste and puts it back in. But I think those are, you know, there's so many of those details that have changed in our, you know, convenient lifestyle over the decades and a couple of generations now that have really poised the human body to be less resilient.
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Yep.
carly & rachel: One thing that's really sad and breaks our heart that we were seeing a lot in the last couple years is little girls with hypothyroidism and Hashimoto's, you know, at like 10 and 12, and like.
Abby Kramer: Right. Like that shouldn't be happening. Yeah. Five year olds with diabetes.
carly & rachel: It should not be happening. But you know that I Yes, yeah. And especially for girls and women, which of course is important to us. We both have sons, but we also have daughters and the thyroid gland, as you know, preaching to the choir, you know, being one of the closest organs, it doesn't have much protection, our thin neck skin. So what are we doing? Lotions and potions and makeup and now it's like Sephora Ulta Halls and like these six-year-old, eight-year-old girls and they want it all 'cause their friends are doing it, and it's like we're just loading up the endocrine system and it's
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: starting with the thyroid. With a ton of toxins, so it's a wild time to be alive, isn't it?
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep. Totally. You're on the front lines doing the work. Well, and then
carly & rachel: For better for worse.
Abby Kramer: it brings the conversation of like how is mom's talkin toxin bucket when she's pregnant? Right? Like I think that plays a whole huge role
carly & rachel: Yeah.
Abby Kramer: as well. So it's like it's just like you guys were saying, really minimizing what we can, cleaning stuff. Obviously, there are some things that are out of our control. Absolutely, right? But like doing our best to have those foundational lifestyle, you know, things we're implementing, getting outside, clean food where you can, making your own like food where you can, clean products, like swapping out for lower tox options, like all of those things that are just like kind of like boring and not sexy and hard, like are really what move the needle the most.
carly & rachel: Yeah. You know, we put so much time planning a wedding and then into our registry and then it's like, okay, well what about For pregnancy, both mom and dad. And I get it,
Abby Kramer: Mm. Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: 50% I think is the statistic of pregnancies that are unplanned. But when I was actually at Metametrics that became Genova, I was pushing really hard. Granted, it was an all-dude, you know, managerial executive staff over
Abby Kramer: Yeah, of course, yeah.
carly & rachel: me. But I was pushing so hard to have a pre-conception panel that would look at the stool
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: analysis of mom and dad, look at toxins, and then cellular function. Imagine that triad. Like
Abby Kramer: So amazing.
carly & rachel: If if we could even get a portion of it would just it absolutely would and
Abby Kramer: Yeah. The fertility crisis would disappear, is what would happen. Yeah.
carly & rachel: we could start turning back the dial on those generations of us getting unhealthier and healthier and healthier, our
Abby Kramer: Mm. Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: kiddos, and trying to make the body more resilient again. I I I would like to be hopeful that it could happen but
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Well, it's all about getting the awareness out there, right? I I do actually think in the fertility space we're starting to see that start to steamroll a bit. Like so many
carly & rachel: Yeah.
Abby Kramer: people are like, Kate, we have to ask ourselves why this is such a problem and why aren't Western medical doctors asking more questions and actually looking for things like endometriosis and you know, instead of it's just like IVF is your only option, you know, there's so many lifestyle factors as you ladies know. That you can change to turn things around.
carly & rachel: Yes, absolutely.
Abby Kramer: Okay, so I'd love to know from you guys what is like your top two to three things you would recommend to anyone listening? Because we talked about like such a wide spectrum of things. So now I can just
carly & rachel: Ha ha ha.
Abby Kramer: tell the moms they're like, I have to throw away every product and live outside. And like, what am I gonna do? Go camping for three
carly & rachel: No.
Abby Kramer: days. So what are like Your top two to three things super tangible they could walk away from today's conversation and start doing to start putting their kids in a better position and like them in a better position.
carly & rachel: Great question. Get out in the dirt. Yeah. Immediately. Mine weren't towards
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Immediately.
carly & rachel: products in the home. I would start going through and eliminating anything with fragrance. You know, fragrance is the new secondhand smoke, right? That's been kind of the new tagline, and we know how impactful that is on health, so especially with kids. but that's I that's where I would start. Little by little, not everything.
Abby Kramer: And even natural fragrance, natural fragrance, same thing. It's like natural flavors.
carly & rachel: Right. Sneaky. Right. I'm gonna one up her because we actually she and I invented an app called Nook for this very purpose for moms that were overwhelmed because we kept hearing so many toxins in
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: the world, where do I start? So we literally have a tech friend named Peter in San Francisco. We built an app, we loaded anything and everything in your house possible into the app. So no food, it's no food at all.
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: It's textiles, it's cleaning products, it's toothpaste, shampoo, conditioner, baby gears, cribs, mattress, all that. So that if you
Abby Kramer: Nice.
carly & rachel: are one of those overwhelmed moms, because for me swapping out things are different than what she thinks are important, than what you think are important, you know? So
Abby Kramer: Yeah, yeah.
carly & rachel: it's like starting where you are doing what you can where you can when you can within your budget I think that that will be my one go-to.
Abby Kramer: Nice. And wash your hands with good old-fashioned soap. None of the sanit hand sanitizer garbage. Okay, so we will definitely
carly & rachel: Yeah, there you go. yeah. Yeah. Soap and water.
Abby Kramer: link to your app. That's awesome.
carly & rachel: Thanks.
Abby Kramer: Yeah, of course. Now tell our people where can they find you? Because you guys, if you're not following these ladies online, you need to because you guys are just a wealth of free information for years for people to consume about living a healthier lifestyle.
carly & rachel: Thanks. Yeah, we have our Instagram page, which I think we're probably the most active on. So it's kale dot blossom. We have our website, which is kaleblossom.com. We dabble on Pinterest. We're getting into Substack. Birds. We are not on TikTok. We got kicked off of that. So don't go there looking for us. We are not there. We have a newsletter, so we try to pump out a few newsletters a week. We try to include information that maybe is a little more difficult to talk about online. If you know what I mean. Yes, yes. So we're t
Abby Kramer: Mm. Yep. Subsex good for that too. Yep.
carly & rachel: we're trying to figure it out, but start on Instagram and you'll find us.
Abby Kramer: Nice. Well, awesome. Thank you so much, ladies. You guys check the show notes. We will link to Kale Blossom and all their wonderful resources. And thanks for coming on the fridge.
carly & rachel: Thanks for having us. We love you guys.
carly & rachel: Thanks for having us. Yeah, happy to be here. Thank you.
Abby Kramer: Of course. So what I want to chat with you guys about today is how we've basically engineered the dirt out of childhood. And it turns out that like that's actually a really important thing for our kiddos. I mean, of course, adults too, right? But for us to like get dirty and we've kind of gotten super into like hygiene and sanitization in this day and age. Yep.
carly & rachel: We certainly have. Yes. Make dirt great again.
Abby Kramer: So I Yeah, we need that on a shirt. Absolutely. Make kids dirty again. So I'd love to hear from you guys, like, what is kind of the hygiene hypothesis? So, like, I mean, I don't even know how far back this goes. Certainly in 2020 it took a turn for the extreme, but really for a long time, I feel like we've been so focused on I remember in school it's like Wash your hands a thousand times a day, like stay away from germs, like wipe everything down. And like, how do you guys see that play out with like your communities, your people online, like the moms you're talking to?
carly & rachel: Yeah, it's funny. The first thing I think of is if you walk around these days and someone starts coughing, do you not get like everybody turns and looks at the person coughing and they're like, right? And I can
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: remember going to middle school and high school, completely stuffed up with a cold, coughing,
Abby Kramer: yeah.
carly & rachel: sneezing, and everybody did it. And it has changed so so much. And I think you're right, you know, with 2020 and the COVID, I think people have become even more germs and germs
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: are not necessarily our enemies, they're also our friends. It's
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: how our immune system learns and evolves. So they're a really important part of our Community, right? As individuals in our greater communities. I think for us, or speaking for myself, I think it takes on a whole new meaning when you finally become a mom and you have kiddos and you're letting them kind of free range and get dirty. My twins who are two and a half right now love mud. They just love
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: it. I mean like head to toe, slatter on the forehead.
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: And you know, it may be too that I'm a more relaxed mom in my 40s after, you know, six
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: kiddos, my first kiddo, maybe I wouldn't have been so. But the same thing at schools, we notice that too. It's like Lysol wipes and sanitizer and
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: the shh that's so, so rough on the respiratory system, the skin, the microbiome, and the gut. And I think so backstory for me, I worked for Metametrics before it was bought out by Genova. When I was first starting my practice. And literally I was a clinical educator, so doctors around the world would call in and I would help them go through their tests and come up with a treatment plan for their patients. And
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: most of the those tests were the stool analyses. So
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: it's so cool. So I got to look at microbiomes from around the world and I would ask things like, is this a mom of a kiddo that's like hand sanitizer all day long?
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: They would have the
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: most sterile guts. Or this is also why I don't eat sushi anymore, because sushi creates some really yucky bucks. Or like homemade kombucha. So we can go the other way
Abby Kramer: Wah wah. Yeah.
carly & rachel: too. I think even we're not talking about today, but like raw milk and kombucha and sushi versus like Lysol. It's like the sweet spot is probably more in the middle, but bacteria
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: germs are important.
Abby Kramer: Yeah. And I think so much of this is like just the modern world. Like every convenience we have, then there's a price to pay, right? So it's like our generations ago, you had no choice but to basically be around or on a farm. You know, you're around different animals, like dirt, you're not like hypersanitizing everything. And then you have the downside, more prone to like crazy diseases, right? But then the other side now, most of us live in like a very suburban, modern, like everything sanitized, you know, even like playgrounds. Some of these playgrounds, they like spray them down with crazy chemicals. I don't know. It's wild.
carly & rachel: It is. Yeah, and it's not good for our kids and we see it in practice too, you know, with the increase in things like skin issues and respiratory issues and then just recurrent infections. because again they're depleted. Depleted, and that's your body's largest immune defense. I remember one of my patients that sticks out, mom came in and she was one of those really hyper-vigilant moms. Not to, she's a great person, nothing against her. She was worried about her family, had her own health struggles. I saw her daughter and then her husband, and they had a bad mold issue in their home, which is you know a part of our environment, sometimes out
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: of our control. But she was using hand sanitizer like crazy. And her daughter had awful eczema. And I was like, we have got to stop the hand sanitizer. First and foremost, like let's baby step. And I think her her mind was so overwhelmed with toxins and kind of contamination in general. She thought it was like one way that she could control. So I think there's a control factor with moms, especially nowadays, because we want our kids to be healthy and then the vaccine debates and you know all the things.
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yeah.
carly & rachel: was very interesting because it was a natural she was making it at home with just like a plain essential oil so she's crunchy and making her own and I'm like okay
Abby Kramer: wow. Yeah. Yeah.
carly & rachel: let's start here and let's get a little bit dirty again
Abby Kramer: Yeah, yeah. Yep. Totally. So let's go into that. Like, do you guys give your patients like a literal prescription of you need to run around outside without shoes on or get in your garden? You know, what are you telling moms especially?
carly & rachel: Yeah, I mean it's super important for the whole family to get outside,
Abby Kramer: Mm.
carly & rachel: go play in the dirt, don't be afraid to get dirty, spend time outside. Now, we certainly aren't big proponents of maybe walking around the grocery store and going in public bathrooms with shoes on and then walking around house necessarily. We draw the line too. But yes,
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Yeah.
carly & rachel: you know, and there's studies that show kids who are exposed to, you know, farm life and pets, they're healthier. They have more immune systems than those who are not. So there's some great research, published research in that as well.
Abby Kramer: Yeah, I love that. I think there's a marker on I really love the tiny health test. Similar gut test, right?
carly & rachel: Yeah.
Abby Kramer: I'm sure you guys are familiar. They have a marker on there. I forget which one it is, but that also like if this is showing up positive on the test, like they're a hand sanitizer person. Like that's what that imbalance
carly & rachel: Yes, yeah.
Abby Kramer: is from. And it's so helpful, I think, for patients to see. Like, okay, you can't overdo it. in that way. And even though it's just on your hands, like it's affecting literally your gut. It's pretty wild.
carly & rachel: Mm-hmm. I I think sorry, nope, yep, go ahead. I think sometimes too we forget that it's okay to get sick once in a while. You know, we're
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm. Yep.
carly & rachel: so afraid to get our for ourselves to get sick. Our kids, of course, we don't like to see our children miserable. We don't like to be miserable, but it's okay to get sick once in a while. It's inconvenient, it's not fun, it disrupts your day and your work schedule, of course. But we need to get sick. Of course, it's an issue if you're not recovering. taking a while to recover and it's happening often, but getting sick is actually good for our body. So I think there's kind
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: of a mind shift that needs to happen as well, just as a as a society. And again,
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: I think the last handful of years kind of spun that around a bit, but we need to come back to that thought. We always say your immune system is like a piano, a musical instrument, or like when you're going to the gym and you're trying to strengthen
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: one muscle group, you have to give it some stress. You have to
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: work out the immune system. And it's good to get sick a couple times a year, but like you're saying, it's the ones that come in and say, I never get sick. Those are the ones we really worry about because then we know immune system resilience is not
Abby Kramer: Yeah. It's like most concerning. Yeah. Yep.
carly & rachel: Yes, yes, it's it's much more concerning. But something else that is such a kind of hypocrisy in the kind of medical world is here we are, like the the CDC and their hand washing guides and like the sterilization. You go into a hospital, it's like sterile, cold, steel, artificial lights, you know, as clean as possible. And then we look at vaccines and we're we're injecting little kiddos, especially with excipients. So we're we're basically making a sterile environment for the immune system. So it doesn't have any kind of exercise, and then we're injecting it with these artificial incipients that make the immune system go wild. So it's just we're totally missing the mark when you get down to the common sense of both of those in and of itself as well. And what's happening with big food and agriculture and you know post-World War II and the Industrial Revolution, we learned a lot of things, but we took it way too far. We created
Abby Kramer: Mm.
carly & rachel: way too many pesticides and chemicals and all these things that can do really cool things, but in the long run, it took us too far in the wrong direction.
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Correct. Because then even I mean, that's another kind of sterilization conversation. Our in a perfect world, our like produce comes with good healthy bacteria and like spores on it from the earth. But now we like freaking bleach everything, coat it in wax or whatever. So it never goes bad and then eat it. So we should be getting even through our food inoculated with like good positive bacteria and microbes. So yeah, it's a real issue.
carly & rachel: The reinoculation of of microbiome bacteria, especially, I did a paper on C-section born versus vaginal
Abby Kramer: Uh-huh.
carly & rachel: babies and talked about the vaginal swabbing.
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: I actually did my own twins because that was my only C-section method. Yeah, isn't it awesome? And
Abby Kramer: I did it too Yes.
carly & rachel: people like cringe in today's world. They're like, You did what? You're like, Yeah.
Abby Kramer: They think you're insane. I'm like, no, no. We're swabbing this. I don't care.
carly & rachel: Yeah, yeah. And I remember my midwife had to help us do it. My husband, you know, it was kind of like a secret op. Like we couldn't we didn't want the hospital to know because it they would not approve of it. So it's like they're doing this in secret. And
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
carly & rachel: you know what though? Like I have C-section twins and we don't have
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: any of the signific we don't have asthma, we don't have chronic
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: allergies, we don't have gut issues, we you know, it's like because
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep.
carly & rachel: we've re-inoculated the good vaginal microbiome
Abby Kramer: Correct.
carly & rachel: from mom that so many kids are missing by being born. C-section, which we know can be necessary, and then also not being breastfed. So that's a whole nother
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm. Yep.
carly & rachel: you know round of our our microbiome as babe missing out
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: when we the first thing that we give a newborn is artificial synthetic formula.
Abby Kramer: Right. When yeah, you should be getting like all that immune benefit, all the positive bacteria from mom. So then it's like from literally day one, some of these kids are just set off on like a different trajectory. And with really simple changes like that can be turned around. So wild.
carly & rachel: Yeah, absolutely.
Abby Kramer: Okay, so I'd love to talk about we talked a lot about like microbiome, all of this stuff. And a lot of this is due to like we live inside too much, right? We avoid sickness at all costs, like everyone's afraid to go anywhere. But then there's the conversation of all the other stuff we are missing out on from being indoors too much. Like I know you guys talk about this a lot too: circadian rhythm, vitamin D, being in the sun. That's also super important for like immune strength. And I mean, even back to the eczema conversation, like vitamin D is a huge issue with that. So I'd love to just hear you guys' opinions. opinion on that and what like simple things families can start incorporating in their routine to just prioritize this. Like we need to get outside more and get some sunshine.
carly & rachel: Yeah, isn't it interesting? One issue leads to the another, right? You know, I think really simple things like getting up in the morning and as a family, whether you eat breakfast outside or just step outside as a family and hang out for a few minutes, even even five or ten minutes can help. But just making it a point to get outside, going on family walk, going on a bike ride, playing outside, just spending as much time as you can in that fresh air because that's so important. And when we're outside, our kids want to be outside, right? So we're not like the
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep.
carly & rachel: now I would love to get outside first thing in the morning. It doesn't happen on school days. Usually. Certainly. Certainly. But definitely
Abby Kramer: Yep, yep.
carly & rachel: on the weekends. We're out there all the time. We rarely come in.
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: One thing we always tell our patients do is to burp your house regularly, open the front door, open the back door, open the windows, weather permitting, and at least get some fresh air, especially the newer homes that are so efficient. You know, we're just trapping
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: in all the building materials, the artificial light, everything. Definitely getting outside. We sit near the window. Sit near the window, go lay on the earth, just lay flat. You know, there was a cool study that showed people that laid on the earth versus didn't had lower blood pressure, lower pulse ox rates that are higher, better pulse ox. So it's like turning back to
Abby Kramer: So cool.
carly & rachel: nature. The the chemicals, the good chemicals that trees give off that can literally,
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: you know, boost the immune system. There was a cool study that just came out three days camping, not going back inside, it boosted your natural killer cells, T cells. It was like like exponential was wild from three days camping. No, we're not big campers, okay? Yeah. So we could like glamp, you know, and be outside, but we don't really want to breathe it. But the idea is yes,
Abby Kramer: Amazing. From three days. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm like actually I'm out, but I'll be outside all day and then go like sleep in my bed. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
carly & rachel: like we we are two indoors. That's a huge so we always check in on those kind of inventory details for those basic pillars of health. that we're missing out on in our go go go
Abby Kramer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: fast-paced indoor artificial Lysol worlds.
Abby Kramer: Yep. I'd love to hear from you guys. This is kind of putting you on the spot a little bit. What is like one specific thing you feel like in childhood you grew up with that now you're trying to bring back to like your own children and their routine?
carly & rachel: That's a great question. My mom always cooked family dinners, and we always sat down most nights of the week the four of us. and she had the most beautiful. I wish we had pictures, you know, it wasn't like your cell phone, you know, snap me pictures.
Abby Kramer: Yeah, yeah.
carly & rachel: I don't know that we do, but the most beautiful herb garden. And each herb had its own, not very big, but rounded with stones that her and my dad found. took them like a year from we would go to different places and parks and and it was the most beautiful herb garden and she would dry them on racks and I remember seeing her use the herbs that she grew and then we'd sit down to eat the dinner. So
Abby Kramer: So cool.
carly & rachel: yeah, I really that's definitely something that I want to incorporate more and do it with my kiddos and let them see how we live off the land we eat the food that we grow. I mean we do the basics
Abby Kramer: Right. Right.
carly & rachel: like blueberry bushes and cherry tomatoes. Haven't gotten to the herb drying packs yet, but it's on my
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome.
carly & rachel: well and isn't it funny, you know, you can drive around a lot of neighborhoods right now and you know there's a lot of kids that live there and you don't see anybody outside. I
Abby Kramer: Correct.
carly & rachel: as a child, I was outside as soon as I could be and when it started
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: getting dark outside, I heard somebody yell or you kind of knew
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep.
carly & rachel: And you know, I guess maybe with technology and video games or whatever it might be, kids just don't go outside anymore. So that's been a big and again, I think it's by, you know, by leading and being outside ourselves and being active and just showing them that side of health without maybe explaining it that way. And it's so important. But we all need to get inside.
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep. Totally. I think part of the problem is like the screens and all that. Like I remember growing up it was like, go outside. I don't want you back in this house until it gets dark. Like, go find your friends, go to the woods,
carly & rachel: We didn't have a choice, right? They were like, get out. Yeah.
Abby Kramer: whatever you gotta do, but like come back for dinner and unless someone's bleeding, you know? Like we could use a little more of that. Yeah.
carly & rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, more creativity, nature, all those things. Kickball. We had a kickball get together at my house this weekend for my daughter's ninth birthday. So adults
Abby Kramer: So fun.
carly & rachel: and kids, we all played. It was so fun. It's just like good, clean fun, you know, and we're outside or messy dirty. Exactly. Yes. Ghosts in the graveyard, capture the flag.
Abby Kramer: That's the best. Yeah. That's the stuff we used to do. Or like night games. You guys play night games? The best. Yes. We need to bring back like night game Fridays or something. It'd be so fun. All right. Now I want to talk about some more ramifications of kind of this like modern issues we find ourselves in. Like the huge spikes in childhood illness. Right, like autoimmune through the roof, like namely like type one diabetes, celiac disease, eczema, asthma, ear infecta I mean, i we could go on and on, right? What do you guys mainly attribute this to? And I know there's many factors.
carly & rachel: That's a really hard one. You know, I think toxic our toxic buckets are rather full these days. and a lot of it we can't control, just kind of our surroundings. But, you know, being diligent about what we can do in our homes, what's it within reach, that makes sense for us. But I think just toxic burden is a big, big, big one. From in utero, which we're not blaming moms, but through, you know, through an age, it's There's just a lot of toxins out there. I think it we we can't have this discussion with talking about the childhood vaccine schedule and even if you are for some of them, wherever you land, we always try to be supportive, but it is overly aggressive compared to us eighties babies what we had. And those diseases were not increasing. So we have to look at that definitely square one. Certainly toxins, over 80,000 chemicals in everyday products like Windex to countercleaner, to toothpaste, to shampoo conditioner. that's a huge one. I think moms are more depleted and that goes back to soil and foods and processed, you know, junk food being easier, eas more easily accessible and cheaper. We just got to go down to a farm here in Georgia, White Oak Pastures. It was incredible six generation.
Abby Kramer: amazing. You guys went?
carly & rachel: It was and Will Harris, he's the main farmer, a legend. I mean it was we were in awe. It was one of the coolest experiences of our lives. But at one point he showed us two samples because his land butts up to his cousin's land, who actually just passed away and he's gonna try to buy it. But his soil was this beautiful dark, like fulvic acid. You could tell it was just very rich black. And his cousin's land was like a Georgia red clay, like barren of nutrients. Like that that 15 feet away. Fifteen feet away.
Abby Kramer: Wow Yeah. Next to each other.
carly & rachel: Yes. And that's how he has taken care of his land versus his cousin. You know, he's a regenerative
Abby Kramer: Crazy. Yeah.
carly & rachel: organic farmer who uses everything nose to tell and even processes the waste and puts it back in. But I think those are, you know, there's so many of those details that have changed in our, you know, convenient lifestyle over the decades and a couple of generations now that have really poised the human body to be less resilient.
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Yep.
carly & rachel: One thing that's really sad and breaks our heart that we were seeing a lot in the last couple years is little girls with hypothyroidism and Hashimoto's, you know, at like 10 and 12, and like.
Abby Kramer: Right. Like that shouldn't be happening. Yeah. Five year olds with diabetes.
carly & rachel: It should not be happening. But you know that I Yes, yeah. And especially for girls and women, which of course is important to us. We both have sons, but we also have daughters and the thyroid gland, as you know, preaching to the choir, you know, being one of the closest organs, it doesn't have much protection, our thin neck skin. So what are we doing? Lotions and potions and makeup and now it's like Sephora Ulta Halls and like these six-year-old, eight-year-old girls and they want it all 'cause their friends are doing it, and it's like we're just loading up the endocrine system and it's
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: starting with the thyroid. With a ton of toxins, so it's a wild time to be alive, isn't it?
Abby Kramer: Yep. Yep. Totally. You're on the front lines doing the work. Well, and then
carly & rachel: For better for worse.
Abby Kramer: it brings the conversation of like how is mom's talkin toxin bucket when she's pregnant? Right? Like I think that plays a whole huge role
carly & rachel: Yeah.
Abby Kramer: as well. So it's like it's just like you guys were saying, really minimizing what we can, cleaning stuff. Obviously, there are some things that are out of our control. Absolutely, right? But like doing our best to have those foundational lifestyle, you know, things we're implementing, getting outside, clean food where you can, making your own like food where you can, clean products, like swapping out for lower tox options, like all of those things that are just like kind of like boring and not sexy and hard, like are really what move the needle the most.
carly & rachel: Yeah. You know, we put so much time planning a wedding and then into our registry and then it's like, okay, well what about For pregnancy, both mom and dad. And I get it,
Abby Kramer: Mm. Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: 50% I think is the statistic of pregnancies that are unplanned. But when I was actually at Metametrics that became Genova, I was pushing really hard. Granted, it was an all-dude, you know, managerial executive staff over
Abby Kramer: Yeah, of course, yeah.
carly & rachel: me. But I was pushing so hard to have a pre-conception panel that would look at the stool
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: analysis of mom and dad, look at toxins, and then cellular function. Imagine that triad. Like
Abby Kramer: So amazing.
carly & rachel: If if we could even get a portion of it would just it absolutely would and
Abby Kramer: Yeah. The fertility crisis would disappear, is what would happen. Yeah.
carly & rachel: we could start turning back the dial on those generations of us getting unhealthier and healthier and healthier, our
Abby Kramer: Mm. Mm-hmm.
carly & rachel: kiddos, and trying to make the body more resilient again. I I I would like to be hopeful that it could happen but
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Well, it's all about getting the awareness out there, right? I I do actually think in the fertility space we're starting to see that start to steamroll a bit. Like so many
carly & rachel: Yeah.
Abby Kramer: people are like, Kate, we have to ask ourselves why this is such a problem and why aren't Western medical doctors asking more questions and actually looking for things like endometriosis and you know, instead of it's just like IVF is your only option, you know, there's so many lifestyle factors as you ladies know. That you can change to turn things around.
carly & rachel: Yes, absolutely.
Abby Kramer: Okay, so I'd love to know from you guys what is like your top two to three things you would recommend to anyone listening? Because we talked about like such a wide spectrum of things. So now I can just
carly & rachel: Ha ha ha.
Abby Kramer: tell the moms they're like, I have to throw away every product and live outside. And like, what am I gonna do? Go camping for three
carly & rachel: No.
Abby Kramer: days. So what are like Your top two to three things super tangible they could walk away from today's conversation and start doing to start putting their kids in a better position and like them in a better position.
carly & rachel: Great question. Get out in the dirt. Yeah. Immediately. Mine weren't towards
Abby Kramer: Yeah. Immediately.
carly & rachel: products in the home. I would start going through and eliminating anything with fragrance. You know, fragrance is the new secondhand smoke, right? That's been kind of the new tagline, and we know how impactful that is on health, so especially with kids. but that's I that's where I would start. Little by little, not everything.
Abby Kramer: And even natural fragrance, natural fragrance, same thing. It's like natural flavors.
carly & rachel: Right. Sneaky. Right. I'm gonna one up her because we actually she and I invented an app called Nook for this very purpose for moms that were overwhelmed because we kept hearing so many toxins in
Abby Kramer: Yes.
carly & rachel: the world, where do I start? So we literally have a tech friend named Peter in San Francisco. We built an app, we loaded anything and everything in your house possible into the app. So no food, it's no food at all.
Abby Kramer: Yeah.
carly & rachel: It's textiles, it's cleaning products, it's toothpaste, shampoo, conditioner, baby gears, cribs, mattress, all that. So that if you
Abby Kramer: Nice.
carly & rachel: are one of those overwhelmed moms, because for me swapping out things are different than what she thinks are important, than what you think are important, you know? So
Abby Kramer: Yeah, yeah.
carly & rachel: it's like starting where you are doing what you can where you can when you can within your budget I think that that will be my one go-to.
Abby Kramer: Nice. And wash your hands with good old-fashioned soap. None of the sanit hand sanitizer garbage. Okay, so we will definitely
carly & rachel: Yeah, there you go. yeah. Yeah. Soap and water.
Abby Kramer: link to your app. That's awesome.
carly & rachel: Thanks.
Abby Kramer: Yeah, of course. Now tell our people where can they find you? Because you guys, if you're not following these ladies online, you need to because you guys are just a wealth of free information for years for people to consume about living a healthier lifestyle.
carly & rachel: Thanks. Yeah, we have our Instagram page, which I think we're probably the most active on. So it's kale dot blossom. We have our website, which is kaleblossom.com. We dabble on Pinterest. We're getting into Substack. Birds. We are not on TikTok. We got kicked off of that. So don't go there looking for us. We are not there. We have a newsletter, so we try to pump out a few newsletters a week. We try to include information that maybe is a little more difficult to talk about online. If you know what I mean. Yes, yes. So we're t
Abby Kramer: Mm. Yep. Subsex good for that too. Yep.
carly & rachel: we're trying to figure it out, but start on Instagram and you'll find us.
Abby Kramer: Nice. Well, awesome. Thank you so much, ladies. You guys check the show notes. We will link to Kale Blossom and all their wonderful resources. And thanks for coming on the fridge.
carly & rachel: Thanks for having us. We love you guys.
