00:00:00
Speaker 1: Well.
00:00:00
Speaker 2: Despite the fact we were able to get off the gray list of the Financial Action Task Force last year, some suggestions we might in fact be vulnerable to being put back on this year because the goal posts to stay off the gray list are getting tighter and title all closer and closer together if you prefer. There's also new focus on outcomes rather than just on laws. Stephen Powell is the head of the forensics practice at yann Stephen Good Evening, How is the Financial Action Task Force? I suppose changing the rules of the game. What are they doing?
00:00:30
Speaker 1: They are not changing the rules. The game has changed.
00:00:32
Speaker 2: You know.
00:00:33
Speaker 1: The current fight of process is more demanding because we now have to demonstrate effectiveness. It's not whether we've passed the laws and whether the institutional reforms are actually producing results. We have to show that we've got the right aml CFT laws on the books, but we've got to see sustained investigations, prosecutions, convictions as well as ascid recovery in serious financial crime matters.
00:00:57
Speaker 2: Stephen, how do you prove that? I mean, it's quite easy to say there are the laws we've done. It's tech quite harder to say, these are the outcomes that you wanted, and we've done that.
00:01:10
Speaker 1: It is a lot harder and we've got to demonstrate this through getting convictions in criminal courts. We need to put perpetrators behind bars. But I think there are just indications of some positive actions that are taking place. You know, with the Midlonger Commission, we've heard revelations of large scale corruption and even sabotage of the criminal justice system. But what we saw just in the last couple of days with the asset forfeiture unit forfeiture order that was granted by the court against the Mammela syndicate implicated in that Tembisa hospital looting scandal. Those are the types of success stories that we've got to demonstrate to the fight if and this is phenomenal because we've seen six luxury properties, three Lamborghinis, are Bentley Continental and a life boat or forfeited to the state. And as long as we can continue to do this, we'll be able to demonstrate a good case to the fight if not to put us back on the greatest So.
00:02:11
Speaker 2: I mean, it gets complicated. You could easily say so many of the people implicated by the Zondo Commission are not actually in prison, havn't been held accountable, even though some of them are being prosecuted and the cases are taking forever. Some are in Parliament. Of course, the same could might happen with people at the Madelunga Commission too, but real outcomes would actually mean proper accountability. And yet I can see the argument against it now, and in fact I think the argument against it would have some merit, which would be to say, you cannot say people have to be convicted to please the Financial Action Task FORS.
00:02:48
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not. People need to be convicted because we've got to demonstrate to the public at large, apart from the fight if that the criminal justice system is working, that crime does not pay, that if you're going to commit fraud or get involved in dodgy tenders, we will take away the proceeds of crime and you will go to jail. You know. So we need the convictions to restore confidence in our criminal justice system. But at the same time, you know, we really don't want to get back onto the gray list, and we need to demonstrate that all of these new laws that we introduced post twenty two to twenty three. We've introduced beneficial ownership, We've changed the Companies Act, the Nonprofit Organizations Act, the Trust Needs Act. We've introduced a whole lot of anti corruption reforms and it's great. FARTEF is now saying well done, South Africa. You now have the laws. Do these laws bite? And that's what we've got to be able to demonstrate. But I think it goes far beyond far if Stephen, I think we've got to restore confidence in the criminal justice system. And I am cautiously optimistic that, you know, we've seen some changes in terms of the leadership of that unit. And I am also optimistic that Andy matb has done good work at the SIU, and I think he's going to rejig and rejuvenate b NPA in South Africa. I certainly hope.
00:04:12
Speaker 2: So yeah, me too. I mean, there's so much work, clearly that still needs to be done there. The way in which the Financial Action Task Forces are basically trying to they're basically making it harder for criminals to access the global financial system. Now, if you get too tight and too many countries are put on the gray list, the thing loses its power. And in fact, if some big countries get put on the gray list, think of I mean, it seems amazing to think of it now, but I suppose it be possible the US it loses its power then too. I mean, the Financial Action Task Force needs to be quite careful here. They obviously need to do what they're supposed to do, but you can't put you know, half the country is on the wrong side of it.
00:04:56
Speaker 1: You're quite right, and I think the fight if FT me me in their response. But there are minimum criteria that every country needs to adhere to, and we've passed a whole spate of new laws as I mentioned earlier. And you know what we've done is we've made sure that the deficiencies that were identified in our twenty one review have now been addressed. And now we've just got to demonstrate that these changes, that the legal reforms that have been introduced, are actually effective and are producing results. And I must tell you a lot of businesses have been complaining about the extent of detail they have to do to register companies and providing details of beneficial ownership. It's a lot of extra admin, but it was necessary admin and I hope it's going to yield results.
00:05:46
Speaker 2: Stephen, Stephen Powell, thanks so much. Ahead of the forensic practice at NS
Speaker 1: Well.
00:00:00
Speaker 2: Despite the fact we were able to get off the gray list of the Financial Action Task Force last year, some suggestions we might in fact be vulnerable to being put back on this year because the goal posts to stay off the gray list are getting tighter and title all closer and closer together if you prefer. There's also new focus on outcomes rather than just on laws. Stephen Powell is the head of the forensics practice at yann Stephen Good Evening, How is the Financial Action Task Force? I suppose changing the rules of the game. What are they doing?
00:00:30
Speaker 1: They are not changing the rules. The game has changed.
00:00:32
Speaker 2: You know.
00:00:33
Speaker 1: The current fight of process is more demanding because we now have to demonstrate effectiveness. It's not whether we've passed the laws and whether the institutional reforms are actually producing results. We have to show that we've got the right aml CFT laws on the books, but we've got to see sustained investigations, prosecutions, convictions as well as ascid recovery in serious financial crime matters.
00:00:57
Speaker 2: Stephen, how do you prove that? I mean, it's quite easy to say there are the laws we've done. It's tech quite harder to say, these are the outcomes that you wanted, and we've done that.
00:01:10
Speaker 1: It is a lot harder and we've got to demonstrate this through getting convictions in criminal courts. We need to put perpetrators behind bars. But I think there are just indications of some positive actions that are taking place. You know, with the Midlonger Commission, we've heard revelations of large scale corruption and even sabotage of the criminal justice system. But what we saw just in the last couple of days with the asset forfeiture unit forfeiture order that was granted by the court against the Mammela syndicate implicated in that Tembisa hospital looting scandal. Those are the types of success stories that we've got to demonstrate to the fight if and this is phenomenal because we've seen six luxury properties, three Lamborghinis, are Bentley Continental and a life boat or forfeited to the state. And as long as we can continue to do this, we'll be able to demonstrate a good case to the fight if not to put us back on the greatest So.
00:02:11
Speaker 2: I mean, it gets complicated. You could easily say so many of the people implicated by the Zondo Commission are not actually in prison, havn't been held accountable, even though some of them are being prosecuted and the cases are taking forever. Some are in Parliament. Of course, the same could might happen with people at the Madelunga Commission too, but real outcomes would actually mean proper accountability. And yet I can see the argument against it now, and in fact I think the argument against it would have some merit, which would be to say, you cannot say people have to be convicted to please the Financial Action Task FORS.
00:02:48
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not. People need to be convicted because we've got to demonstrate to the public at large, apart from the fight if that the criminal justice system is working, that crime does not pay, that if you're going to commit fraud or get involved in dodgy tenders, we will take away the proceeds of crime and you will go to jail. You know. So we need the convictions to restore confidence in our criminal justice system. But at the same time, you know, we really don't want to get back onto the gray list, and we need to demonstrate that all of these new laws that we introduced post twenty two to twenty three. We've introduced beneficial ownership, We've changed the Companies Act, the Nonprofit Organizations Act, the Trust Needs Act. We've introduced a whole lot of anti corruption reforms and it's great. FARTEF is now saying well done, South Africa. You now have the laws. Do these laws bite? And that's what we've got to be able to demonstrate. But I think it goes far beyond far if Stephen, I think we've got to restore confidence in the criminal justice system. And I am cautiously optimistic that, you know, we've seen some changes in terms of the leadership of that unit. And I am also optimistic that Andy matb has done good work at the SIU, and I think he's going to rejig and rejuvenate b NPA in South Africa. I certainly hope.
00:04:12
Speaker 2: So yeah, me too. I mean, there's so much work, clearly that still needs to be done there. The way in which the Financial Action Task Forces are basically trying to they're basically making it harder for criminals to access the global financial system. Now, if you get too tight and too many countries are put on the gray list, the thing loses its power. And in fact, if some big countries get put on the gray list, think of I mean, it seems amazing to think of it now, but I suppose it be possible the US it loses its power then too. I mean, the Financial Action Task Force needs to be quite careful here. They obviously need to do what they're supposed to do, but you can't put you know, half the country is on the wrong side of it.
00:04:56
Speaker 1: You're quite right, and I think the fight if FT me me in their response. But there are minimum criteria that every country needs to adhere to, and we've passed a whole spate of new laws as I mentioned earlier. And you know what we've done is we've made sure that the deficiencies that were identified in our twenty one review have now been addressed. And now we've just got to demonstrate that these changes, that the legal reforms that have been introduced, are actually effective and are producing results. And I must tell you a lot of businesses have been complaining about the extent of detail they have to do to register companies and providing details of beneficial ownership. It's a lot of extra admin, but it was necessary admin and I hope it's going to yield results.
00:05:46
Speaker 2: Stephen, Stephen Powell, thanks so much. Ahead of the forensic practice at NS
