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Hello and welcome to Snyder's return a tabletop role playing podcast. My guest today has played a critical role in guiding new players into the hobby of Dungeons and Dragons. My encounter this week is with dm skilled, adept and prolific writer and content creator, Mr. James hake. Hello.
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Hey there, how are you?
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I'm very well thank you for asking
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that. It's great to be on the show. I'm happy to talk with you about all things d&d today.
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Well, we should Talk about all things d&d and anything else you would like to talk about. If you wouldn't mind, give us a brief insight into yourself and how you got into tabletop role playing games and Dungeons and Dragons in particular.
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Absolutely. My beginning and tabletop role playing games, I was introduced in high school to d&d third edition. I for a very long time, you know, I was introduced later in life and a lot of the people who I am familiar with in the RPG industry right now, there's so many people who are working in d&d started playing when they were, you know, nine or 10, or something like that. They were kids who found their parents RPG manuals in boxes in the attic, that sort of thing. But, you know, my my family is not a particularly geeky one. My parents loved Star Trek in Star Wars. That was kind of the extent of it. So There were no d&d manuals for me to find in the attic. I only had some video games, I was very much introduced to fantasy role playing through video games like Fire Emblem, The Legend of Zelda, that sort of thing not even any Western d&d inspired or who geez like boulders gate, or that sort of thing. And so I feel like because of that my design sensibilities have always had this kind of Nintendo ish, colourful toy attic sensibility to them, which is surprisingly rare, I think in in the field of tabletop RPGs. The shadow of d&d is a long one, and it kind of perpetuates its own style.
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That's fair. So that was yours or leading so how did you first get involved with the content creation and everything that you do now? Where did your relationship with that start?
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It's twisty path. And I want to start this story by paraphrasing something that Chris Perkins said at a PAX South talk, oh, probably about three or four years ago now, right around the time of storm kings thunders release. So 2015 I think he said something that I'll never forget. And it's that the path that he took into the industry, Chris Perkins was an editor for dragon magazine. He kind of kept plugging away at it. Until he was working on d&d itself with wizards as kind of a lead story guy. The path that he took into the industry does not exist anymore. Back in the 70s, and 80s. People who were writing for d&d got their start by submitting to dungeon or dragon magazine, doing little articles that got the attention of the people who were working on d&d, and they were like, well, this person can hit a deadline and they can write something that's quite interesting to us. Let's keep publishing them. Let's reach out to them. to work on something instead of kind of like accepting a cold call pitch to one of our magazines. And that career path, such as anything RPG is can be called a career path simply doesn't exist anymore. dungeon and dragon magazine are long gone, there's nothing even remotely like them anymore other than a couple of indie publications. And the exact same thing can be said kind of, of how I got into the industry just over five years ago, even that path that I took, does not exist for basically anyone. Everyone's path into creating content for role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons in that specific case is completely personal and completely unique to them. There may be some similarities, coincidental or intentional to one other person's path but but I'm about to tell you is just one way that I got in and if you Want to start making adventures or character archetypes or something like that you will have to find your own path. So how I got started, I got started in creating things for Dungeons and Dragons. Because I went to college out of state. I went from Washington state to the state of California. And I had no friends who I knew, and no one who I had to play Dungeons and Dragons with. And I was very into d&d at the time, the five e play test was happening. While I was in college, they desperately wanted to play with someone. But I had precious few opportunities to do so until I was a junior or a senior. What groups I was able to pull together fell apart rapidly, for one reason or another. So I just kind of started writing my own adventures, stories that I would tell if I had anyone to play him with. And this one adventure that I wrote called the temple Have shattered mines is a sort of eldritch mystery with a mind flayer villain. And you fool that I was sophomore in high school in the middle of the last decade was blissfully unaware that I it was actually against the law for me to publish anything online free or otherwise with a mind flayer in it because that's product identity Wizards of the Coast. It's so distinctly d&d that even under the open gaming licence, you can't publish anything like that. I i wised up to that fact. Fortunately, before I published anywhere and got myself in some hot water, but other bits of that adventure, I pass them around to indie RPG publishers or I should call them third party, RPG publishers, people who are not affiliated with wizards but published under the open gaming licence d&d content that kind of showed people like kobold prep And Ian world, the sort of thing that I was capable of. And it just so happened that I was in the right place at the right time. And back in 2015, Ian world was looking for an editor for their new Xen style Patreon publication called Insider. And I got the job as an editor there, and it was my job to make sure that we hired pitches from freelancers and that we published a new article or an adventure every single week. And that was just something I did throughout college just kind of plugging away. It was like a part time job, basically, but I was meeting people in the RPG industry. I met a good friend of mine and a previous interviewee on the show, James intercom. So through Insider, I gave him his first RPG job in one of my first RPG jobs, and we have basically been friends ever since. Which is wonderful. I love James very much and his work is always amazing.
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And through that, like I said, I'd moved to Southern California for college and kind of off the cuff, another lucky break, and you'll hear me talk about just kind of getting lucky and being in the right place at the right time a lot because it's the how this sort of thing works.
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I saw a call for interns while I was
ignoring my theatre history class and browsing Twitter.
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I saw Geek and Sundry located in Burbank, California calling for interns. And I was like, I can do that too. And this sounds interesting. I love tabletop with Wil Wheaton. And so I applied. And I put that work I did for insider on my resume. And they I know now with the benefit of hindsight, that that is the thing that absolutely got me that job because it showed I had editorial experience and most importantly, Geek and Sundry was brewing up. This show this thing that you might have heard of called critical role. They were about 30 hours. episodes in at the time. And they had no one on staff on their writing staff who knew anything about d&d more than the very broad strokes of it. And so they were ecstatic to get an intern who knew much more than the first thing about d&d and could like write about it to get their audience hooked into the idea of this role playing game kind of make that part of their brand. And through you can send a message Matt Mercer, who is one of the nicest human beings alive. And together, we worked on the tail direct campaign setting. And that book got in the hands of Wizards of the Coast and d&d beyond. And I ended up working on waterdeep Dragon heist with my pal James interCall. So for wizards, in part because of that Matt Mercer was a consultant on that particular adventure. And d&d beyond hired me to be their, their lead writer. And you know, just like how I started this industry, editing one hour Every week now I am plugging away every single day writing two to three articles every single week for d&d beyond. So I I do not lack for work. I lack a bit for free time. But it is great work being able to write d&d for a living. It's truly incredible.
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It sounds incredible. And as you say, your your story and your journey is is individual to say, say the least. And you mentioned him before, but James in Chicago spoke very highly of you when I interviewed him before. And you mentioned how much work you're doing. And at time of recording, you just released the newest encounter of the week with respect to the newly announced adventure. icewind Dale rhyme with the frost maiden. So yeah, you clearly clearly plugging away at that sort of stuff. What else you've been involved with you You said you We're involved with waterdeep Dragon heist of the things projects that you've been involved with in in tandem to to publish adventures
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in tandem to publish adventures, what do you mean by that?
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things for like the DMS guild I mentioned before you're gonna die Yes.
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So there's always a bunch of plates spinning in the air when it when it comes to me fewer these days now that I'm now that I'm employed with d&d beyond I have to, I have to hustle a little bit less, which is good, even though I'm working just about as hard. Yeah, most people enter the RPG industry as freelancers which truly does not pay very well at all, especially if you're living in the US because freelance tax is truly truly deeply painful. But if you're a freelancer entering the RPG industry, you better be prepared to be constantly on the hunt. projects and that's exactly what I did when I was getting started. That it first adventure that I told you about the one that got me a job at EA n world was Temple of shattered mines. And it turns out about a year after I wrote it, the DMS guild was announced and suddenly wizards product identity was open season for anyone who wanted to publish there. And so I dropped that on the DNS guild while I was working at Geek and Sundry. And I started that sort of started my self publishing career such as it was, and so it's always been branching out with different different third party publishers, different personal projects, whatever it takes to pay the bills and keep the the one man operation afloat, is stuff I did even working with wizards on dragon heist. Those were freelance operations. I published a bunch of stuff with COBOL press, part of their creature Codex monster book was my work, too. With shattered minds, the DMS Guild, I have worked with the DMS guild addicts, which are a group of people hand selected by the folks of wizards to create exceptional products to kind of tie in be in tandem with their official releases. So the most recent official d&d hardcover release was mythic Odysseys of heroes, sort of magic, the gathering Greek mythology inspired setting and the latest guild at UPS release his encounters in theros. We've released encounters in a vernis waterdeep City encounters all sort of tie ins to the main publish adventures, which are these products full of nearly 100 different standalone d&d encounters that are useful for DMS who lack prep time who have parties that always Zig when you expect them to zag right they go off here Expected path, you need that book there. Just you can like, Okay, hold on a second. I have nothing planned in this area. Let's see what could happen.
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And
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I'm very happy with encounters in there. Oh, so I think every one of these encounters books is better and more inventive than the last. My partner Hannah Rhodes worked on that book as well. She's one of the guild at UPS well deserved because of her hard work. And all the other guild edits. Did some incredible work on this creating encounters that are more than just you run into three centaurs on the open plains, you know, anyone can throw that encounter together in a matter of minutes. But if you have an encounter in the wreck of a crashed Trireme ship on the coasts of the Serpents sea and it's filled with tritons, who are seeking A lost idol of a Demon Lord, then it's like okay, you're bringing in all of these details and that is every single detail that you put into the encounter with work that a dungeon master no longer has to do. So I would say that those encounter products are always some of my favourite to create
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Yeah, I feel like I should have written that last sentence down but that that sort of comes on to my next question really with your articles on d&d beyond so your new player guide your encounters the week and spell spotlights with your work with the published materials and your work critical role in your encounters in and things like that. Where Where do you draw all this inspiration from? How do you just keep coming up with with these new ideas and twists on what could as you say could just be you know, you run into three bandits in an alleyway kind of situation.
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I draw inspiration from from everything in the world and It seems like a cop out answer. So let me delve a little bit deeper into it. The truth is for creative people, you can find inspiration anywhere. If you're looking for it, if you're looking for inspiration, you will find it. And it doesn't always happen, you know, on your own timeline doesn't always happen on your own terms. You can't force your brain into being inspired. But if you're, you know, I try and take take an hour to walk every day. And I live in Seattle, just a gorgeous city and I live near water and forests and within eyesight of mountains, and just sort of being out in the world feeling the sun on me, or the rain on me as the case often is here. And just being surrounded by the natural world, and then you know, walking out and seeing the city just on the other side of the block. There is there's just so much sensory input that my brain can't help but process it and turn it and turn it into some kind of creative output. Inspiration is a hard thing to talk about. Because just like getting into the RPG industry, like I talked about earlier, everyone's brain works just a little bit differently. But what I can talk about is discipline. And this is something that every writer ought to hear. And every writer hates to hear the first time they hear it. And it's that inspiration is a fickle moods. If you only wrote when you were inspired, you wouldn't write much. And if you want to write professionally, like literally writing as a profession, then you will be forced with deadlines, you will stare down the barrel of loaded deadlines. And you will have to write them even when you feel uninspired. Even when you feel depressed. When you feel anxious, and in the current state of the world, I know I am feeling all of those things all the time. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. So it takes a lot of hard work, a lot of mental training to discipline yourself to actually sit down and commit to writing, instead of doing scrolling through Twitter for three hours a day in the morning when your brain is freshest. You know, if you sit down with a blank page, or even a blank page with an outline on it, that you wrote the night before. And even if you just stare at that page for an hour, and you and you write five words, that's better than first thing in the morning. We're scrolling through your social media because that stuff is poison. You will you will, you're throwing water onto the fire. That is your creativity when you just kind of like scroll endlessly and feel the despair of The world encroaching upon you it'll make you mad and it will not make you productive. Yeah, it's it's hard to to find that constant get up every day, write a little bit write what you can doesn't matter if it's if it's good or not half the time. The fact that you wrote it is what's important you can always come back and edit later.
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Often that's that's fair and honest advice. And I agree with the view outside the window and into the world of social media media can be a spiral.
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Now, speaking of social media, I you know, I just made my little rant against Twitter, but I if someone wants to be in the RPG industry, there are worse things you could do then be on Twitter. It a lot of the friendships I've made in the professional connections that I've created as well have been partially or even completely created on Twitter just through social, social media interaction. And that is a very, very unfortunate reality of of the RPG Freelancer situation. It's a Twitter is the epicentre of it all it is simultaneously the best. And the worst thing you can do for yourself is spent a lot of time on Twitter, especially DND. fandom Twitter,
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as well, touching on social media and links, should we say where is it that people can find find yourself and your content? We've mentioned the DMS Guild, and I'll put a link in the bottom to some of your your published works, but where can they find you?
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Yes. So despite my screens, go to Twitter. It's absolutely my number one social platform. You'll find me on there more often than I ought to be. You'll find me at James J. hake. Right there on Twitter calm. I'm sure you will. Throw a link to that down below. But also on d&d beyond.com like I said earlier three articles a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday like clockwork they'll go up. There will be Encounters of the week on Monday. Just like those build out of products right there thoughtful encounters that will add something to your DMT experience. Right now I'm running a series called ice wind mail Special delivery in which your characters play as members of the lustre delivers which are kind of a mercenary company comm parcel delivery service you know through through rain through sleet, etc, etc, who take on the dangerous most dangerous deliveries in the Sword Coast north and so it's kind of this dark comedy lead up to the bleak, horrific icewind Dale rhyme of the frostbite and that's going to be coming out this September.
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That's that's, you know, you a lot of useful information you touched on the future release Wondering if we sort of scroll backwards a little bit and talk about discipline? When you write your encounters, how do you go about making sure they're balanced? And what advice would you give to dungeon masters when they're potentially creating their own encounters using d&d beyond or or other systems?
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balance is a very good topic. And I'm going to start by rambling because you know, I like to ramble, but I will wind my way over to balance eventually, I want to first touch on how I start writing an encounter. And I find that the best way for me to start an encounter any other writers may find this useful too, is by outlining. It took me a very long time to come around to outlining. When I was in school, I would always just kind of write and see where the words would take me and I still write like that when I'm writing fiction. Because I like the characters to kind of come alive and and guide me themselves. But when I'm writing a DND encounter, I truly do need to know where it begins, where it will go and how it will end. And I need to hammer out every single beat of the encounter in broad strokes before I before I fill in the details. So if you go to any one of my encounters, on d&d beyond comm, you will see that there are kind of like these headers that lead every single section. And those headers are the first thing I write not just because it creates something organisational for me, but because it breaks the curse of the blank page. every writer has this feeling at some point or another, they're looking at a blank page or a blank Word document. And they're like, I don't know what the hell I'm gonna write on this page. It's, you know, an acute form of analysis paralysis. There are so many options that you have Have no idea how to continue. And so just by putting down, you know, five headers, an introduction of beginning, a middle, and end and a resolute and like a next time on, you know, sort of a hook to the next one. That gives me enough of a framework so I can actually start writing this thing. So now I'm actually writing the thing. We're thinking about not just organisational design, but game design, balance, fun, all of those things that are important. And this might come as a bit of a surprise to people who think that game designers are very rigid and meticulous and calculated. But when I first started writing an encounter, balance factors into it almost not at all. The only way the balanced factors into my design initially is when I'm choosing a villain. For instance, you know if I'm if I'm choosing if I'm writing an encounter for a second level party, I am not going to choose a dragon turtle as the boss of the encounter. You know, that's a CR 17 or something monster, it just seems silly to put a party of second level characters up against that with, you know, with the caveat that it's like, it's going to be a straight fair fight, there's not going to be any sort of, you know, it's not going to be like an escape encounter. There are all sorts of funky little exceptions that if you want to stretch and play with the DND rule set, it becomes more forgiving in terms of any sort of balance. And, and that's, that's the rule I have to live by. Because fun. Not balance is the most important thing when creating an encounter. And balance can truly encourage fun in a lot of situations, but it can also be too restrictive. for players to let them find the fun on their own if an encounter is too prescribed if it feels too rote. If, if it doesn't surprise you in any way, if every choice is the one that you kind of expected would happen for the people That doesn't necessarily lead to a fun encounter, it can lead to a balanced one. But an overzealous game designer can balance all the funds straight out of their game. But not to say I design unbalanced encounters on purpose, let me just amend that little Akasha. There. You know, once an encounter is placed down, I do my best to make sure that it's not going to be a total a total party wipe, guaranteed it's not going to be an uphill battle that's a slog to play through right? balance is just another tool in my toolkit is what I mean to say by this.
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Fair enough. So you you've mentioned the fun and the balance. What else do you have in your toolkit then that allows you to create this ebb and flow these dynamic almost encounters that you you put out on a river Give a basis.
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I like this question a lot. There are all sorts of things that can inspire and encounter. every encounter I write kind of has a seed that it germinates from. Sometimes it's a concept. This encounter series, the ice wind male encounter series is just kind of birthed from the idea of like, what if there were, what would the life of postal workers look like in the Forgotten Realms? Because at the time I was concepting, this there was a lot of hubbub going around about the US Postal Service. It was being defunded, and you know, it's the kind of the Wild West for them. We're all doing our best to make sure that USPS survives. And so I was like, well, I want to think about postal workers. They they work so hard. What would it be like in a world where like, monsters exist? Would they be d&d adventures, they absolutely would be d&d adventures. So that's That was kind of the the high concept start of an encounter series and high concept can work. Especially in fantasy where high concepts are thrown around like they're candy. Lord of the Rings, you know is predicated entirely on high concept stuff. One Ring to bind nine human, three elven and five dwarf rings. Like there's there's no semblance of like relatability in any of that super, super high concept stuff. But it's fantasy. It works. It's meant to be a little bit expansive. Sometimes, an NPC will be the central hanging point of an encounter, the first encounter of this ice wind male series. loading up to the icebreaker is all about NPCs and interactions. A dm could do far worse than just coming up with three fun NPCs when they're doing their session prep, but that's all the prep they did come up with three find NPCs with one One distinctive character trait apiece. suddenly you've got three solid social encounters that you can just kind of drop into your d&d game and the players will have a lot of fun interacting with those people. That's great. Like, in the words of sly flourish, lazy Dungeon Master prep, no pejorative intended. Sometimes, a magic item is what makes a great encounter right you think of King Arthur and the Sword in the Stone. The centrepiece of that encounter is it's a special item. It's it's an enchantment, and it's all about well, okay, maybe the actual legend of King Arthur is a little bit anticlimactic right because it's just the right person who pulls the sword from the stone but imagine that put into a less sort of prophetic more d&d, like down and dirty fantasy setting like what what what what must one do in order to pull the sword from the stone must Defeat the giant who is guarding it must say, you know, recall the ancient incantation of razzmatazz or something like that. And so you can just kind of spiral out of one magic item or even one world myth. And this all comes back to like, What? What can inspire you to create DND stuff? Anything can inspire you to create DND stuff as long as you're willing to look at it. tweak the conventions a bit. Just cross through your own brain, I think. I think a lot of people are afraid to trust their own mind and their own perspective of the world. They people try to get clever about things. What's a clever twist, I could put on the myth of King Arthur or what's a clever twist. I could put on the concept of like, I don't know Harry Potter Magic School. People try to be too clever. A lot and it ends up making
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d&d encounters that are
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just a little difficult to parse for people who don't have the full context. for players who do not live inside the dungeon Master's mind, it's hard to follow the exact leaps of logic and cleverness that they took in order to get to where they wound up at the end. If you just kind of take an idea, let's talk about let's stick with Sword in the Stone. You think of something from folklore, you think of that Sword in the Stone? And just think about like, if I were Sir Arthur Mallory, you know, if I were writing Lamar Arthur, how would I write this story in the stone bits so that it would be exciting and fun? not clever. Not not tricky, not not surprising, not twisty, like your m Night Shyamalan writing a thriller. But what would be fun and as as a human person who's lived on the planet earth for however many years now, whether it's 15 or 20, or 25, or you know, eight Five up to up to the sky's the limit your experience as a human being on the planet earth will has shaped your mind into its own unique little labyrinth of influences, that when you put something into the input end of your mind, your subconscious will chew on it for you know, however long it takes an hour a day, a month, a year, and eventually something will come it will come out the other side, this fully formed idea or even just a nugget of an idea that you'll have to do some work on. That is a cool thing that your own brain has shaped and it's it's it may still be obvious that you were inspired by the sword in the stinking stone. Or it might be it might have come out totally different because your your your own maze of influences has worked at beyond recognizability. And to do that you didn't have to be clever. You just had to be you and you had to not be afraid of the things that your brain put out. In front of you. Wow.
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Well, I can say to that, I think so are being spied on I just feel inspired but
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that was me for a long time I was very afraid of not appearing cool. I think a lot of nerds can relate to this. They're they're worried about the stuff that they think of being uncool.
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And
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it's, it's like, you can't let that get you down. You know if that takes going to a therapist that takes just like me saying this. Don't worry about being uncool. I'll say it again. Don't worry about being uncool. You're writing for Dungeons and Dragons. If If you're worried about being cool, then go write for The Hollywood Reporter or something like that. Things you write are I guarantee you going to be deeply, deeply uncool to the world at large. But that means that the people who think the same way as you do Or think similar to you will find them incredibly cool. And you don't have to be for everyone. The work you create just has to be fun for you, and your audience will come and find you. It they might not come and find you immediately. You might be catering to a very, very tiny audience. But as long as you are having fun with what you're writing, as long as it's cool to you, that will be the reward for you the Twitter followers, the number of people who want to buy your product, that shouldn't be the reward that shouldn't be what you're aiming for. That can be a happy consequence though, too many Twitter followers can be a curse in disguise living tell you that can be a happy consequence but it it shouldn't be your end goal as a content creator.
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Yeah, I can only second that motion.
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Yeah, well, paying the bills is important. So maybe find a way to pay the bills while you're while you're languishing in obscurity. But
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until one replaces the other. Exactly.
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Yes, exactly. That's fair.
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You've mentioned some some NPCs and things may inspire, a an encounter in their own right or just a memorable moment of roleplay with your party. In your latest encounter. You mentioned an MPC that's popped up across a couple of different adventures artists Simba, what's what's the significance of using a more well known, say well known MPC such as that one for recurring adventures. That's an interesting idea
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of the recurring NPC and I'll talk about him first in that I'll talk about the idea of recurring NPC first in the context of my writing and then in the context of a diems home campaign. Artists simply In d&d lore as someone who was introduced in Forgotten Realms novels a way way long time back and although called the ring of winter, and artists ember and the eponymous ring of winter popped up twice in five adventures in first in storm kings thunder, and later in Tomb of annihilation, and I cannot say whether or not he will appear in icewind Dale rhymed approximate and I didn't work on that book. I have no real insight into what exactly goes on in that adventure. But I figured I might as well use this character because I have licenced to do so because of the type of partnership d&d beyond has with wizards. Just in this adventure as a character that people can look at and think, ah, I remember him. They have a connection, they have a connection to this character might. It might not even be a big connection. But it's a moment of recognition where it Suddenly there's a name they recognise. And they suddenly feel a little bit more attached to the story that's going on because it's struck one of their mental synapses. And the reason why that is good to do or it can be good to do in published writing is it's the Marvel effect to the cinematic universe effect. It's that a little bit of interconnectedness between your adventures they don't have to be you know, they don't have to all be sequels or whatever. Dozens of Marvel films are not sequels to one another Thor The Dark World is not a sequel to Iron Man, even though they take place in the same world and may share a character or two. But there's a sense of expansiveness that gives what you have written not just as a sort of feeling of verisimilitude a feeling of realistic pneus. But also because people will, their brains will light up a little bit subconsciously when they see Things or places or, or items or spills that they recognise from elsewhere. That's the reason why artists Ember shows up in my icewind Dale encounter series. It's why he showed up in two different d&d adventures, why they brought him back. But recurring NPCs can be a powerful thing for a home campaign to you can get that sort of Marvel Universe effect going on if you have like multiple campaigns, right, if you have a group that stuck with you for five years, which is quite rare, but my congratulations to you if you have had that. But you know, you finished one campaign and the characters had a favourite NPC and you start a new one and 10 sessions and they meet that NPC but 20 years have passed and they're a little older and wiser and they are kind of a mentor now, that's cool that gives your players is really awesome. Whoa, it's my favourite NPC moment I can't wait to like, I have my new character. I have a completely different type of relationship. With them compared to the first time that I knew them and the other campaign critical role did that recently with a character named Laura minor spoilers, I guess where she appeared in their first campaign and then has made a cameo appearance or two in the second. And you know, the players loved it. The audience of critical role loved it, it's a cool little moment. But you can have recurring NPCs even in just a single campaign. And that sort of, oh, hey, it's you thing can suddenly make a story feel more lived in more real. My current campaign takes place on a central Island, kind of that kind of exists in the middle of the fantasy Mediterranean Sea like region, where there are five different nations kind of surrounding this ocean and this hub world islands that they make their base. And because of the very centralised nature of their home base, there is a lot of opportunity for NPCs Just kind of wind up being relevant again, some, you know, 10 sessions after they were first introduced to the players feel like we're not just living in a video game world where we go out on missions and we come back and get XP now we live in a place where people who we met can be walking down the street one day and we'll bump into them just like if we were living in a real small fantasy city. It improves that sense of verisimilitude. Like I said, that sense of realistic pneus believability. It also saves you work as a DM you don't have to make up a new NPC every time you want to come up with someone cool. That's
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definitely helped me I know on occasion I have to be honest. You mentioned that your own sort of homebrew world is with excluding the future releases and anything beyond that which is available now both in the shops and on d&d beyond and potentially other role 20 fancy grand things of the Published source books campaign books ranging from all the way back to the starter set and vanderlin through to wild mountain others where where is your favourite published location the city town world to explore if you were to start a new campaign with your current group you pause the one you're on now and you thought I'm going to open up one of these published books. I'm going to put boots on the ground wherever they land.
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That's a really good question.
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I have always had a soft spot forever on I've never played in ever on before but I think the ideas of ever own are very cool. I love the cool ashtar and their psychic, spiritual bond with Corey spirits and the dowel corps the plane of dreams that that untold abomination To keep trying to burst through and take over the material world from I love the sort of post World War One magic fantasy aesthetic it's got going on. Everyone is a very realised setting, which makes it really attractive to me but also very intimidating. I, whenever I run a campaign, I almost always set it in a homebrew world. Not just because I have a lot of ideas in my head that I want to get down. But that is certainly true. But because of the amount of like freedom and collaborative ness it gives me with my players. And when I go to set boots on the ground in a public setting, I always feel a little bit constricted when it comes to making the sort of character connections, because I want my players to be able to world build with me. I wrote an article about that on d&d beyond a week or two ago about collaborative world building. That's a very great fun part of the end for me. So that's why everyone is always intimidated me not because I you know, not because I don't want to do the research. I do the research all the time. So I can write about these settings, but it intimidates me. Because I know that if I want to bring my players in, they will have to become semi experts about the setting as well if we want to get to the level of detail, and the level of involved witness that I really enjoy in d&d campaigns, whereas if it's a public setting, it's a blank slate and we could just kind of brainstorm and come up with whatever we want. Public settings, obviously, you know, the books tell you, you know, you're playing in your own version of the Forgotten Realms or have ever on or wild mount or wherever you're playing. So it's like, Don't Don't be intimidated that way. The the books and my own advice go against what I feel that intimidation, I feel all the time but Because I work on d&d in a somewhat professional capacity I I do feel intimidated to change the work of a designer, who is who are my colleagues? Because I'm like, Who am I to say that I know what's better for me than they do? And it's a stupid question. It's a stupid little anxiety because obviously, I know it's better for me to they made a setting that was fun for them, right, just like I was saying they needed something that was fun for them, and their audience would come to it. And if the audience, no audience is going to connect with a product 100% I mean, you're looking for a successful product, you want to find someone to connect to that, you know, 70 to 90% and the rest that 10 to 30% that they don't quite click with. They should be free to change it themselves. And in fact, because d&d is such an open game, they are free to change it themselves. So I Long story short, I would love to play an ever on, I'd love to run a campaign and never run. And it's it's my own worry and my own need to really tear the setting apart before I can run it. That keeps me from doing that. I think
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that's fair enough. I mean, the show on the city of towers is is a BAM off in its own and just understand the different different levels and the structures and the interplay of one subsection and crime family against this and that, yes, I can understand your view of it potentially being intimidating. And then you've got the wider world outside of just that one read it. Yeah, I get it. I do. But you spoke there about sort of the world building with your players and we've spoken about your fellow adepts and things like that. So who else is on your sort of design? List of maybe collaborate with a game or yet to collaborate with or even who would you like to dm for since you run your own games?
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Oh, there are there are so many people who I'd love to work with. And there are many. There are many people who I feel are like out of out of my reach because they are very high profile people who like to play RPGs I played a one on one d&d game with BJ Walters who's known for his work on La by night, a lot of Vampire the Masquerade stuff. And I you know, I would love to create something with him. I'd love to have a game with him. But it's always like when when will the opportunity arise? And am I am I going to like it's going to be difficult to make that partnership happen because we're both very busy professionals and Have a lot of stuff on our plate already. Let me just rattle off some names because these are people who I'd love to work with again. My Paul James injure caso always loved working with him. Matt Mercer. always a joy to work with him be Dave. He's super. He's super fun. He's got a great, great energy and his dming is beyond cool. Let me see here. I would love to work with Daniel Kwan who's part of the dungeons and Asians podcast. I think his his work on taking apart. Non Western d&d settings is frankly inspirational and should should set a standard for people who want to create non Western settings from here on out tales of a dia known by Alfa stream online. Very smart guy very, very fun to work with. His work on ashes of athis and The acquisitions incorporated DND book are beyond compare and find people off the top of my head. Those are people who I'd love to work with sounds
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each of them in their own right have contributed something unique and special and I'm sure
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Oh, I'm and I, I just worked with these two people on a project d&d beyond, but any opportunity that I would have to work with McKenzie to armus and Celeste Connor, which again would just like, mean the world to me, those two are designers that anyone who's working in d&d would would kill to have on their team. Just because they have not only the assumingly boundless supply of creative energy, but also an incredible attitude and a very collaborative nature. That's kind of the secret sauce when it comes to making RPG is is collaborative nature. If you look at it wizards book, any official d&d book that's come out in the past couple of years or so you will see a truly immense number of writers. And, you know, say nothing of artists and graphic designers and so on that work on it. And putting together a book like that, that's some 320 pages with full colour art that you know, matches the story they're telling. And with 13 different chapters that all tell a complete story, but they can be played individually on their own is a feat that defies believability. But because the people who work on these books have a collaborative spirit, and they don't have huge egos, they're able to work together and drop their own. You know, they're willing to kill their darlings so to speak easily and set aside their individual wants for the sake of a really damn good book, the end of the day. That is something that often goes underappreciated. In The creative work and making RPGs.
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Absolutely. Celeste is also a podcaster. So you should definitely go and check out her podcast as well.
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And mentor me. Excellent.
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Yeah, so I can't recommend them highly enough. So you spoke there about the amount of people that go together to put one of these published books together. What we mentioned some advice earlier, but is there any more advice you would like to give for potential future creators or writers or even editors as you've mentioned your your other half? Is there any more advice you would you would like to share with them?
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Yes, there there is a lot that I could say on the topic of being a good RPG creator being a good artistic person in general. And I think my advice to start with kind of track me back to That story I told at the very beginning of the show, how I got to where I am. And even though my story is is unique, and you may at best find some similarities, some ways that you can leverage similar opportunities in a way that suits you. There is some general advice that I can give that I think will be more useful than just kind of hearing how I did it. And the first bit of advice that I would give to any RPG creator is to be determined and find the joy that is intrinsic in your work. I feel like I said something similar to this earlier on, but you want to find intrinsic rewards when you're creating RPGs that would be like the joy of writing a really solid piece of prose brings you joy, the act of making a really slick encounter is something that just sets your brain on fire. And it's not about how many people started following me on Twitter because of this cool RPG post I made or how many people bought my first or second or third outing on the DM skilled because all of those extrinsic rewards will lead you to compare yourself with other people. You'll see people like empty black, the most successful guy in the DM skilled Look at his numbers, you'll think oh, no, we'll never get there. I don't do empty black numbers because I'm not empty black. I do not have you know, I do not publish 20 different RPG books a year on the DM skilled and and frankly, no one can do that. I don't know how mt does it. He has a certain system that he's created. for himself that that gives him the ability to do something like that. So comparing yourself to other people, the comparisons even comparisons that seem fair that seem like apples to apples are never the way they seem because you don't know what's been going on with those people. You don't know what their process is what their internal life is like what their home life. Life is, like. Is this person married? Do they have someone who is giving them health insurance as a freelancer? Do they have someone who makes their household financially stable all on their own? Do they have someone who you know always cooks dinner for them? Do they have someone who does any number of invisible things that gives them a leg up? Compared to you, you never know that you never know. So you can only judge yourself by your own standards. And you can only find the fun in RPG making by well, having fun writing art Jeez, don't do it if it's a chore. Similarly to that, I would say that the one extrinsic reward that I would say is always worth it is making friends in the RPG industry. And like I said at the very beginning of this, my first and best friend in RPGs is James intercom. So the guy who was one of my first people I worked with, on insider when I was entering the industry, I was the guy who gave him his first job. And that just naturally made a strong connection between the two of us.
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That
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can be the value of social platforms like Twitter is that it gets you socially connected with other people. The act of making a friend in a creative field is reward enough, but these friends can benefit you in many ways. Your friends will promote your work, your friends can be playtesters for you, your friends can give you advice, they can help you when you're feeling defeated. The goal of making friends in RPG is is not to give you some kind of material advantage, but it can often turn out that way. And people know when you're going to take advantage of them, right if you try and make friends and if you'll just because of what they can do for you, they'll be able to tell. So, seek, seek friends, seek people who will stand side by side with you who will who will support you, when the going invariably gets tough. But do it because you like them do it because you have a common connection. Don't just do it for what they can provide you. It's a third piece of advice that I can give people who want to get into RPGs Be patient. This is hard advice to hear, I think for anyone in creative field. I when I started working on DND I was going to school for theatre performance, which gives me the the lovely experience of leaving theatre for the only profession less stable RPG right. And from from there, both of my parents were were professional performers for a certain period in their life and they aren't anymore. They have, quote unquote, real jobs now. And when they were performing, I know my dad at least set a an ultimatum for himself. Essentially he told me this when I was still very into doing theatre performance as a profession. He was like, when I was 18. I set myself a goal and if I don't make it in 10 years, I'm going to give it up. And I did it for 10 years and when I was 28, I gave it up In that context, 10 years can sound like both an incredibly long amount of time to struggle with no success. But it also can seem like an incredibly short period of time, given the context of someone's full life.
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So I,
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I say to you this, if you want to make writing RPGs, your full time gig, if like that's what you want as a career as a profession, then set yourself an ultimatum. Give yourself, I don't know, five years, five or 10 years. And at the end of every year, if you've been busting your chops, trying to make it work, you're sinking money into this. You're thinking time and effort and emotional strain into creating things that make you happy. check in at the end of every year. Ask yourself, is this fun for me? Do I still can I still find the fun in creation If the answer's no, then you need to reconsider what you're doing. You need to find out why it's not fine. Is it not fun just because you aren't being successful? Is it not fun because you burned yourself out, you've hustled so hard, that you can no longer remember why you started in the first place. If like, if those things have happened, you need to take a break and figure some stuff out. Because that happens to a lot of people. It's happened to me before and like I've managed to work through it. I've managed to, you know, get myself into the other side of that burnout. But, I mean, burnout can can kill careers, and it's not fun. I mean, it's it's like it's like watching someone drink poison, and then just like suffer. It's creative poison, that burnout. But, you know, if at the end of the every every year you're like, yeah, I'm not making much money, but I'm having fun. It's great. You know, I'd like to actually make money so I can make this a career in the future. It's only been like one or two years. Great. Keep going. If you We're able to keep putting in that money in that effort in the time and you're still having fun, keep pushing it because right now, what you've got yourself is essentially a somewhat expensive hobby that might make you some money in the future. People who play RPGs are used to having expensive hobbies. Look at the price of Warhammer For God's sake. As long as you're having as much fun making RPGs as you would be playing Warhammer with your friends and like I say, That's still a good investment for you. But like once you get to the end of your five years, you've reached your ultimatum period. And you're like, I still haven't made any money. Or like you know, my income has not exceeded what I've invested into this, then you need to stop and consider and think okay, am I okay? With this potentially just being a hobby forever. And some people are some people are totally, I would be happy if I were just doing this as a hobby forever. Some of my most my greatest fun in RPGs is from just dm And doing hobbyist stuff, they're 100% days where I'm like, where I'm working, right? They say, find a job you love. You never work a day in your life, dead wrong. I've worked some days. But when it gets down to it, I still love what I'm doing. So I keep doing it. If you've come to the end of your five years, and you're like, I'm making some money, I'm making some money, then you might still be kind of in kind of being a hobbyist position, right? Can you support yourself on the money you're making? RPGs? Do you think you can like keep building your audience if you gave it another five years? Right? These are the things you have to ask yourself every single I'd say here, ask yourself every single year when you're working in RPGs is just like, start thinking of it as more than a hobby. Start thinking of it as something. Is this a potential job for me if you want to make it a job? I guess just to boil all that down, find out what's important for you in making RPGs. And if you can satisfy what's important to you, it's worth it. But if all of your hard work, it's making you unhappy, and it's not satisfying that important core desire that you want it. Then you need to find another option. Man, that piece of advice sounded so dire. I don't want to sound like a downer. It's a great place to be. But there are some pretty harsh realities that people don't like to talk about. And I like to be a fun and uplifting and you know, a happy guy but I feel disingenuous if I if I don't really try and tell you the truth. When I'm here talking to you like this,
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I would say it was not so dour. It was it was Franken and an honest and that amount of honesty put across the street. show people that there aren't going to be struggles and that you know, as stealing from a completely different industry when the fun stops consider stopping to paraphrase it i think is is valuable advice because some people might hit a wall some people might drive themselves into financial trouble was trying to chase a dream that they've fallen out of love with so there's there's the light at the end of the tunnel that's hope they don't meet it for the wrong reasons.
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Yeah, yes.
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So and when you you're in a position such as such as yourself where you've been able to cultivate a following and an income and still be able to support yourself to whatever level of comfort you you live at then then you can remember why you started and enjoy it and and keep working.
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I couldn't have said I better myself.
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So, unless you have anything more to add, I think that sort of rounds out our time together today.
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You know, I could I could talk and ramble about RPGs all day long.
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But then, maybe if you have the time in the future, I'd love to speak to you again.
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I'd love to chat with you again, man.
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But yeah, so if you have nothing further,
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yeah, if I've got nothing further than I will say, it's been a great pleasure being on the show. Like I just said, You know, I, I'd love to talk with you again. Love to dig even deeper into the weeds of what makes writing for RPG is so much fun.
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I look forward to doing that with you. We'll definitely get that sorted out.
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Fantastic. Yeah, if you want to find me on the internet, I spend more time than I care to admit on twitter at James J. hake. You can find my work on the DMS guild in the links below. And check out what I write on d&d beyond.com three days a week and countless the week. A new players guide Last one on one spell spotlight how to play monsters. It's all there. Got a deep archive for you to go diving in. So
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check it out. Absolutely today. As of recording today, the encounter of the week is evil on the ICC. So definitely check that one out. Very interesting encounter in support of the special delivery storyline. Thank you very much, James.
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Thank you very much, Adam.
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Thanks for listening. If you want to hear more of us or to get in contact with us, you can find us on Twitter at Return Snyder. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and also if you wish to support the channel on patreon@patreon.com slash nice return. music and sound effects provided for this episode. are from epidemic sounds calm
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Hello and welcome to Snyder's return a tabletop role playing podcast. My guest today has played a critical role in guiding new players into the hobby of Dungeons and Dragons. My encounter this week is with dm skilled, adept and prolific writer and content creator, Mr. James hake. Hello.
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Hey there, how are you?
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I'm very well thank you for asking
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that. It's great to be on the show. I'm happy to talk with you about all things d&d today.
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Well, we should Talk about all things d&d and anything else you would like to talk about. If you wouldn't mind, give us a brief insight into yourself and how you got into tabletop role playing games and Dungeons and Dragons in particular.
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Absolutely. My beginning and tabletop role playing games, I was introduced in high school to d&d third edition. I for a very long time, you know, I was introduced later in life and a lot of the people who I am familiar with in the RPG industry right now, there's so many people who are working in d&d started playing when they were, you know, nine or 10, or something like that. They were kids who found their parents RPG manuals in boxes in the attic, that sort of thing. But, you know, my my family is not a particularly geeky one. My parents loved Star Trek in Star Wars. That was kind of the extent of it. So There were no d&d manuals for me to find in the attic. I only had some video games, I was very much introduced to fantasy role playing through video games like Fire Emblem, The Legend of Zelda, that sort of thing not even any Western d&d inspired or who geez like boulders gate, or that sort of thing. And so I feel like because of that my design sensibilities have always had this kind of Nintendo ish, colourful toy attic sensibility to them, which is surprisingly rare, I think in in the field of tabletop RPGs. The shadow of d&d is a long one, and it kind of perpetuates its own style.
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That's fair. So that was yours or leading so how did you first get involved with the content creation and everything that you do now? Where did your relationship with that start?
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It's twisty path. And I want to start this story by paraphrasing something that Chris Perkins said at a PAX South talk, oh, probably about three or four years ago now, right around the time of storm kings thunders release. So 2015 I think he said something that I'll never forget. And it's that the path that he took into the industry, Chris Perkins was an editor for dragon magazine. He kind of kept plugging away at it. Until he was working on d&d itself with wizards as kind of a lead story guy. The path that he took into the industry does not exist anymore. Back in the 70s, and 80s. People who were writing for d&d got their start by submitting to dungeon or dragon magazine, doing little articles that got the attention of the people who were working on d&d, and they were like, well, this person can hit a deadline and they can write something that's quite interesting to us. Let's keep publishing them. Let's reach out to them. to work on something instead of kind of like accepting a cold call pitch to one of our magazines. And that career path, such as anything RPG is can be called a career path simply doesn't exist anymore. dungeon and dragon magazine are long gone, there's nothing even remotely like them anymore other than a couple of indie publications. And the exact same thing can be said kind of, of how I got into the industry just over five years ago, even that path that I took, does not exist for basically anyone. Everyone's path into creating content for role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons in that specific case is completely personal and completely unique to them. There may be some similarities, coincidental or intentional to one other person's path but but I'm about to tell you is just one way that I got in and if you Want to start making adventures or character archetypes or something like that you will have to find your own path. So how I got started, I got started in creating things for Dungeons and Dragons. Because I went to college out of state. I went from Washington state to the state of California. And I had no friends who I knew, and no one who I had to play Dungeons and Dragons with. And I was very into d&d at the time, the five e play test was happening. While I was in college, they desperately wanted to play with someone. But I had precious few opportunities to do so until I was a junior or a senior. What groups I was able to pull together fell apart rapidly, for one reason or another. So I just kind of started writing my own adventures, stories that I would tell if I had anyone to play him with. And this one adventure that I wrote called the temple Have shattered mines is a sort of eldritch mystery with a mind flayer villain. And you fool that I was sophomore in high school in the middle of the last decade was blissfully unaware that I it was actually against the law for me to publish anything online free or otherwise with a mind flayer in it because that's product identity Wizards of the Coast. It's so distinctly d&d that even under the open gaming licence, you can't publish anything like that. I i wised up to that fact. Fortunately, before I published anywhere and got myself in some hot water, but other bits of that adventure, I pass them around to indie RPG publishers or I should call them third party, RPG publishers, people who are not affiliated with wizards but published under the open gaming licence d&d content that kind of showed people like kobold prep And Ian world, the sort of thing that I was capable of. And it just so happened that I was in the right place at the right time. And back in 2015, Ian world was looking for an editor for their new Xen style Patreon publication called Insider. And I got the job as an editor there, and it was my job to make sure that we hired pitches from freelancers and that we published a new article or an adventure every single week. And that was just something I did throughout college just kind of plugging away. It was like a part time job, basically, but I was meeting people in the RPG industry. I met a good friend of mine and a previous interviewee on the show, James intercom. So through Insider, I gave him his first RPG job in one of my first RPG jobs, and we have basically been friends ever since. Which is wonderful. I love James very much and his work is always amazing.
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And through that, like I said, I'd moved to Southern California for college and kind of off the cuff, another lucky break, and you'll hear me talk about just kind of getting lucky and being in the right place at the right time a lot because it's the how this sort of thing works.
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I saw a call for interns while I was
ignoring my theatre history class and browsing Twitter.
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I saw Geek and Sundry located in Burbank, California calling for interns. And I was like, I can do that too. And this sounds interesting. I love tabletop with Wil Wheaton. And so I applied. And I put that work I did for insider on my resume. And they I know now with the benefit of hindsight, that that is the thing that absolutely got me that job because it showed I had editorial experience and most importantly, Geek and Sundry was brewing up. This show this thing that you might have heard of called critical role. They were about 30 hours. episodes in at the time. And they had no one on staff on their writing staff who knew anything about d&d more than the very broad strokes of it. And so they were ecstatic to get an intern who knew much more than the first thing about d&d and could like write about it to get their audience hooked into the idea of this role playing game kind of make that part of their brand. And through you can send a message Matt Mercer, who is one of the nicest human beings alive. And together, we worked on the tail direct campaign setting. And that book got in the hands of Wizards of the Coast and d&d beyond. And I ended up working on waterdeep Dragon heist with my pal James interCall. So for wizards, in part because of that Matt Mercer was a consultant on that particular adventure. And d&d beyond hired me to be their, their lead writer. And you know, just like how I started this industry, editing one hour Every week now I am plugging away every single day writing two to three articles every single week for d&d beyond. So I I do not lack for work. I lack a bit for free time. But it is great work being able to write d&d for a living. It's truly incredible.
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It sounds incredible. And as you say, your your story and your journey is is individual to say, say the least. And you mentioned him before, but James in Chicago spoke very highly of you when I interviewed him before. And you mentioned how much work you're doing. And at time of recording, you just released the newest encounter of the week with respect to the newly announced adventure. icewind Dale rhyme with the frost maiden. So yeah, you clearly clearly plugging away at that sort of stuff. What else you've been involved with you You said you We're involved with waterdeep Dragon heist of the things projects that you've been involved with in in tandem to to publish adventures
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in tandem to publish adventures, what do you mean by that?
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things for like the DMS guild I mentioned before you're gonna die Yes.
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So there's always a bunch of plates spinning in the air when it when it comes to me fewer these days now that I'm now that I'm employed with d&d beyond I have to, I have to hustle a little bit less, which is good, even though I'm working just about as hard. Yeah, most people enter the RPG industry as freelancers which truly does not pay very well at all, especially if you're living in the US because freelance tax is truly truly deeply painful. But if you're a freelancer entering the RPG industry, you better be prepared to be constantly on the hunt. projects and that's exactly what I did when I was getting started. That it first adventure that I told you about the one that got me a job at EA n world was Temple of shattered mines. And it turns out about a year after I wrote it, the DMS guild was announced and suddenly wizards product identity was open season for anyone who wanted to publish there. And so I dropped that on the DNS guild while I was working at Geek and Sundry. And I started that sort of started my self publishing career such as it was, and so it's always been branching out with different different third party publishers, different personal projects, whatever it takes to pay the bills and keep the the one man operation afloat, is stuff I did even working with wizards on dragon heist. Those were freelance operations. I published a bunch of stuff with COBOL press, part of their creature Codex monster book was my work, too. With shattered minds, the DMS Guild, I have worked with the DMS guild addicts, which are a group of people hand selected by the folks of wizards to create exceptional products to kind of tie in be in tandem with their official releases. So the most recent official d&d hardcover release was mythic Odysseys of heroes, sort of magic, the gathering Greek mythology inspired setting and the latest guild at UPS release his encounters in theros. We've released encounters in a vernis waterdeep City encounters all sort of tie ins to the main publish adventures, which are these products full of nearly 100 different standalone d&d encounters that are useful for DMS who lack prep time who have parties that always Zig when you expect them to zag right they go off here Expected path, you need that book there. Just you can like, Okay, hold on a second. I have nothing planned in this area. Let's see what could happen.
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And
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I'm very happy with encounters in there. Oh, so I think every one of these encounters books is better and more inventive than the last. My partner Hannah Rhodes worked on that book as well. She's one of the guild at UPS well deserved because of her hard work. And all the other guild edits. Did some incredible work on this creating encounters that are more than just you run into three centaurs on the open plains, you know, anyone can throw that encounter together in a matter of minutes. But if you have an encounter in the wreck of a crashed Trireme ship on the coasts of the Serpents sea and it's filled with tritons, who are seeking A lost idol of a Demon Lord, then it's like okay, you're bringing in all of these details and that is every single detail that you put into the encounter with work that a dungeon master no longer has to do. So I would say that those encounter products are always some of my favourite to create
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Yeah, I feel like I should have written that last sentence down but that that sort of comes on to my next question really with your articles on d&d beyond so your new player guide your encounters the week and spell spotlights with your work with the published materials and your work critical role in your encounters in and things like that. Where Where do you draw all this inspiration from? How do you just keep coming up with with these new ideas and twists on what could as you say could just be you know, you run into three bandits in an alleyway kind of situation.
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I draw inspiration from from everything in the world and It seems like a cop out answer. So let me delve a little bit deeper into it. The truth is for creative people, you can find inspiration anywhere. If you're looking for it, if you're looking for inspiration, you will find it. And it doesn't always happen, you know, on your own timeline doesn't always happen on your own terms. You can't force your brain into being inspired. But if you're, you know, I try and take take an hour to walk every day. And I live in Seattle, just a gorgeous city and I live near water and forests and within eyesight of mountains, and just sort of being out in the world feeling the sun on me, or the rain on me as the case often is here. And just being surrounded by the natural world, and then you know, walking out and seeing the city just on the other side of the block. There is there's just so much sensory input that my brain can't help but process it and turn it and turn it into some kind of creative output. Inspiration is a hard thing to talk about. Because just like getting into the RPG industry, like I talked about earlier, everyone's brain works just a little bit differently. But what I can talk about is discipline. And this is something that every writer ought to hear. And every writer hates to hear the first time they hear it. And it's that inspiration is a fickle moods. If you only wrote when you were inspired, you wouldn't write much. And if you want to write professionally, like literally writing as a profession, then you will be forced with deadlines, you will stare down the barrel of loaded deadlines. And you will have to write them even when you feel uninspired. Even when you feel depressed. When you feel anxious, and in the current state of the world, I know I am feeling all of those things all the time. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. So it takes a lot of hard work, a lot of mental training to discipline yourself to actually sit down and commit to writing, instead of doing scrolling through Twitter for three hours a day in the morning when your brain is freshest. You know, if you sit down with a blank page, or even a blank page with an outline on it, that you wrote the night before. And even if you just stare at that page for an hour, and you and you write five words, that's better than first thing in the morning. We're scrolling through your social media because that stuff is poison. You will you will, you're throwing water onto the fire. That is your creativity when you just kind of like scroll endlessly and feel the despair of The world encroaching upon you it'll make you mad and it will not make you productive. Yeah, it's it's hard to to find that constant get up every day, write a little bit write what you can doesn't matter if it's if it's good or not half the time. The fact that you wrote it is what's important you can always come back and edit later.
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Often that's that's fair and honest advice. And I agree with the view outside the window and into the world of social media media can be a spiral.
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Now, speaking of social media, I you know, I just made my little rant against Twitter, but I if someone wants to be in the RPG industry, there are worse things you could do then be on Twitter. It a lot of the friendships I've made in the professional connections that I've created as well have been partially or even completely created on Twitter just through social, social media interaction. And that is a very, very unfortunate reality of of the RPG Freelancer situation. It's a Twitter is the epicentre of it all it is simultaneously the best. And the worst thing you can do for yourself is spent a lot of time on Twitter, especially DND. fandom Twitter,
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as well, touching on social media and links, should we say where is it that people can find find yourself and your content? We've mentioned the DMS Guild, and I'll put a link in the bottom to some of your your published works, but where can they find you?
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Yes. So despite my screens, go to Twitter. It's absolutely my number one social platform. You'll find me on there more often than I ought to be. You'll find me at James J. hake. Right there on Twitter calm. I'm sure you will. Throw a link to that down below. But also on d&d beyond.com like I said earlier three articles a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday like clockwork they'll go up. There will be Encounters of the week on Monday. Just like those build out of products right there thoughtful encounters that will add something to your DMT experience. Right now I'm running a series called ice wind mail Special delivery in which your characters play as members of the lustre delivers which are kind of a mercenary company comm parcel delivery service you know through through rain through sleet, etc, etc, who take on the dangerous most dangerous deliveries in the Sword Coast north and so it's kind of this dark comedy lead up to the bleak, horrific icewind Dale rhyme of the frostbite and that's going to be coming out this September.
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That's that's, you know, you a lot of useful information you touched on the future release Wondering if we sort of scroll backwards a little bit and talk about discipline? When you write your encounters, how do you go about making sure they're balanced? And what advice would you give to dungeon masters when they're potentially creating their own encounters using d&d beyond or or other systems?
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balance is a very good topic. And I'm going to start by rambling because you know, I like to ramble, but I will wind my way over to balance eventually, I want to first touch on how I start writing an encounter. And I find that the best way for me to start an encounter any other writers may find this useful too, is by outlining. It took me a very long time to come around to outlining. When I was in school, I would always just kind of write and see where the words would take me and I still write like that when I'm writing fiction. Because I like the characters to kind of come alive and and guide me themselves. But when I'm writing a DND encounter, I truly do need to know where it begins, where it will go and how it will end. And I need to hammer out every single beat of the encounter in broad strokes before I before I fill in the details. So if you go to any one of my encounters, on d&d beyond comm, you will see that there are kind of like these headers that lead every single section. And those headers are the first thing I write not just because it creates something organisational for me, but because it breaks the curse of the blank page. every writer has this feeling at some point or another, they're looking at a blank page or a blank Word document. And they're like, I don't know what the hell I'm gonna write on this page. It's, you know, an acute form of analysis paralysis. There are so many options that you have Have no idea how to continue. And so just by putting down, you know, five headers, an introduction of beginning, a middle, and end and a resolute and like a next time on, you know, sort of a hook to the next one. That gives me enough of a framework so I can actually start writing this thing. So now I'm actually writing the thing. We're thinking about not just organisational design, but game design, balance, fun, all of those things that are important. And this might come as a bit of a surprise to people who think that game designers are very rigid and meticulous and calculated. But when I first started writing an encounter, balance factors into it almost not at all. The only way the balanced factors into my design initially is when I'm choosing a villain. For instance, you know if I'm if I'm choosing if I'm writing an encounter for a second level party, I am not going to choose a dragon turtle as the boss of the encounter. You know, that's a CR 17 or something monster, it just seems silly to put a party of second level characters up against that with, you know, with the caveat that it's like, it's going to be a straight fair fight, there's not going to be any sort of, you know, it's not going to be like an escape encounter. There are all sorts of funky little exceptions that if you want to stretch and play with the DND rule set, it becomes more forgiving in terms of any sort of balance. And, and that's, that's the rule I have to live by. Because fun. Not balance is the most important thing when creating an encounter. And balance can truly encourage fun in a lot of situations, but it can also be too restrictive. for players to let them find the fun on their own if an encounter is too prescribed if it feels too rote. If, if it doesn't surprise you in any way, if every choice is the one that you kind of expected would happen for the people That doesn't necessarily lead to a fun encounter, it can lead to a balanced one. But an overzealous game designer can balance all the funds straight out of their game. But not to say I design unbalanced encounters on purpose, let me just amend that little Akasha. There. You know, once an encounter is placed down, I do my best to make sure that it's not going to be a total a total party wipe, guaranteed it's not going to be an uphill battle that's a slog to play through right? balance is just another tool in my toolkit is what I mean to say by this.
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Fair enough. So you you've mentioned the fun and the balance. What else do you have in your toolkit then that allows you to create this ebb and flow these dynamic almost encounters that you you put out on a river Give a basis.
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I like this question a lot. There are all sorts of things that can inspire and encounter. every encounter I write kind of has a seed that it germinates from. Sometimes it's a concept. This encounter series, the ice wind male encounter series is just kind of birthed from the idea of like, what if there were, what would the life of postal workers look like in the Forgotten Realms? Because at the time I was concepting, this there was a lot of hubbub going around about the US Postal Service. It was being defunded, and you know, it's the kind of the Wild West for them. We're all doing our best to make sure that USPS survives. And so I was like, well, I want to think about postal workers. They they work so hard. What would it be like in a world where like, monsters exist? Would they be d&d adventures, they absolutely would be d&d adventures. So that's That was kind of the the high concept start of an encounter series and high concept can work. Especially in fantasy where high concepts are thrown around like they're candy. Lord of the Rings, you know is predicated entirely on high concept stuff. One Ring to bind nine human, three elven and five dwarf rings. Like there's there's no semblance of like relatability in any of that super, super high concept stuff. But it's fantasy. It works. It's meant to be a little bit expansive. Sometimes, an NPC will be the central hanging point of an encounter, the first encounter of this ice wind male series. loading up to the icebreaker is all about NPCs and interactions. A dm could do far worse than just coming up with three fun NPCs when they're doing their session prep, but that's all the prep they did come up with three find NPCs with one One distinctive character trait apiece. suddenly you've got three solid social encounters that you can just kind of drop into your d&d game and the players will have a lot of fun interacting with those people. That's great. Like, in the words of sly flourish, lazy Dungeon Master prep, no pejorative intended. Sometimes, a magic item is what makes a great encounter right you think of King Arthur and the Sword in the Stone. The centrepiece of that encounter is it's a special item. It's it's an enchantment, and it's all about well, okay, maybe the actual legend of King Arthur is a little bit anticlimactic right because it's just the right person who pulls the sword from the stone but imagine that put into a less sort of prophetic more d&d, like down and dirty fantasy setting like what what what what must one do in order to pull the sword from the stone must Defeat the giant who is guarding it must say, you know, recall the ancient incantation of razzmatazz or something like that. And so you can just kind of spiral out of one magic item or even one world myth. And this all comes back to like, What? What can inspire you to create DND stuff? Anything can inspire you to create DND stuff as long as you're willing to look at it. tweak the conventions a bit. Just cross through your own brain, I think. I think a lot of people are afraid to trust their own mind and their own perspective of the world. They people try to get clever about things. What's a clever twist, I could put on the myth of King Arthur or what's a clever twist. I could put on the concept of like, I don't know Harry Potter Magic School. People try to be too clever. A lot and it ends up making
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d&d encounters that are
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just a little difficult to parse for people who don't have the full context. for players who do not live inside the dungeon Master's mind, it's hard to follow the exact leaps of logic and cleverness that they took in order to get to where they wound up at the end. If you just kind of take an idea, let's talk about let's stick with Sword in the Stone. You think of something from folklore, you think of that Sword in the Stone? And just think about like, if I were Sir Arthur Mallory, you know, if I were writing Lamar Arthur, how would I write this story in the stone bits so that it would be exciting and fun? not clever. Not not tricky, not not surprising, not twisty, like your m Night Shyamalan writing a thriller. But what would be fun and as as a human person who's lived on the planet earth for however many years now, whether it's 15 or 20, or 25, or you know, eight Five up to up to the sky's the limit your experience as a human being on the planet earth will has shaped your mind into its own unique little labyrinth of influences, that when you put something into the input end of your mind, your subconscious will chew on it for you know, however long it takes an hour a day, a month, a year, and eventually something will come it will come out the other side, this fully formed idea or even just a nugget of an idea that you'll have to do some work on. That is a cool thing that your own brain has shaped and it's it's it may still be obvious that you were inspired by the sword in the stinking stone. Or it might be it might have come out totally different because your your your own maze of influences has worked at beyond recognizability. And to do that you didn't have to be clever. You just had to be you and you had to not be afraid of the things that your brain put out. In front of you. Wow.
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Well, I can say to that, I think so are being spied on I just feel inspired but
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that was me for a long time I was very afraid of not appearing cool. I think a lot of nerds can relate to this. They're they're worried about the stuff that they think of being uncool.
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And
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it's, it's like, you can't let that get you down. You know if that takes going to a therapist that takes just like me saying this. Don't worry about being uncool. I'll say it again. Don't worry about being uncool. You're writing for Dungeons and Dragons. If If you're worried about being cool, then go write for The Hollywood Reporter or something like that. Things you write are I guarantee you going to be deeply, deeply uncool to the world at large. But that means that the people who think the same way as you do Or think similar to you will find them incredibly cool. And you don't have to be for everyone. The work you create just has to be fun for you, and your audience will come and find you. It they might not come and find you immediately. You might be catering to a very, very tiny audience. But as long as you are having fun with what you're writing, as long as it's cool to you, that will be the reward for you the Twitter followers, the number of people who want to buy your product, that shouldn't be the reward that shouldn't be what you're aiming for. That can be a happy consequence though, too many Twitter followers can be a curse in disguise living tell you that can be a happy consequence but it it shouldn't be your end goal as a content creator.
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Yeah, I can only second that motion.
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Yeah, well, paying the bills is important. So maybe find a way to pay the bills while you're while you're languishing in obscurity. But
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until one replaces the other. Exactly.
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Yes, exactly. That's fair.
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You've mentioned some some NPCs and things may inspire, a an encounter in their own right or just a memorable moment of roleplay with your party. In your latest encounter. You mentioned an MPC that's popped up across a couple of different adventures artists Simba, what's what's the significance of using a more well known, say well known MPC such as that one for recurring adventures. That's an interesting idea
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of the recurring NPC and I'll talk about him first in that I'll talk about the idea of recurring NPC first in the context of my writing and then in the context of a diems home campaign. Artists simply In d&d lore as someone who was introduced in Forgotten Realms novels a way way long time back and although called the ring of winter, and artists ember and the eponymous ring of winter popped up twice in five adventures in first in storm kings thunder, and later in Tomb of annihilation, and I cannot say whether or not he will appear in icewind Dale rhymed approximate and I didn't work on that book. I have no real insight into what exactly goes on in that adventure. But I figured I might as well use this character because I have licenced to do so because of the type of partnership d&d beyond has with wizards. Just in this adventure as a character that people can look at and think, ah, I remember him. They have a connection, they have a connection to this character might. It might not even be a big connection. But it's a moment of recognition where it Suddenly there's a name they recognise. And they suddenly feel a little bit more attached to the story that's going on because it's struck one of their mental synapses. And the reason why that is good to do or it can be good to do in published writing is it's the Marvel effect to the cinematic universe effect. It's that a little bit of interconnectedness between your adventures they don't have to be you know, they don't have to all be sequels or whatever. Dozens of Marvel films are not sequels to one another Thor The Dark World is not a sequel to Iron Man, even though they take place in the same world and may share a character or two. But there's a sense of expansiveness that gives what you have written not just as a sort of feeling of verisimilitude a feeling of realistic pneus. But also because people will, their brains will light up a little bit subconsciously when they see Things or places or, or items or spills that they recognise from elsewhere. That's the reason why artists Ember shows up in my icewind Dale encounter series. It's why he showed up in two different d&d adventures, why they brought him back. But recurring NPCs can be a powerful thing for a home campaign to you can get that sort of Marvel Universe effect going on if you have like multiple campaigns, right, if you have a group that stuck with you for five years, which is quite rare, but my congratulations to you if you have had that. But you know, you finished one campaign and the characters had a favourite NPC and you start a new one and 10 sessions and they meet that NPC but 20 years have passed and they're a little older and wiser and they are kind of a mentor now, that's cool that gives your players is really awesome. Whoa, it's my favourite NPC moment I can't wait to like, I have my new character. I have a completely different type of relationship. With them compared to the first time that I knew them and the other campaign critical role did that recently with a character named Laura minor spoilers, I guess where she appeared in their first campaign and then has made a cameo appearance or two in the second. And you know, the players loved it. The audience of critical role loved it, it's a cool little moment. But you can have recurring NPCs even in just a single campaign. And that sort of, oh, hey, it's you thing can suddenly make a story feel more lived in more real. My current campaign takes place on a central Island, kind of that kind of exists in the middle of the fantasy Mediterranean Sea like region, where there are five different nations kind of surrounding this ocean and this hub world islands that they make their base. And because of the very centralised nature of their home base, there is a lot of opportunity for NPCs Just kind of wind up being relevant again, some, you know, 10 sessions after they were first introduced to the players feel like we're not just living in a video game world where we go out on missions and we come back and get XP now we live in a place where people who we met can be walking down the street one day and we'll bump into them just like if we were living in a real small fantasy city. It improves that sense of verisimilitude. Like I said, that sense of realistic pneus believability. It also saves you work as a DM you don't have to make up a new NPC every time you want to come up with someone cool. That's
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definitely helped me I know on occasion I have to be honest. You mentioned that your own sort of homebrew world is with excluding the future releases and anything beyond that which is available now both in the shops and on d&d beyond and potentially other role 20 fancy grand things of the Published source books campaign books ranging from all the way back to the starter set and vanderlin through to wild mountain others where where is your favourite published location the city town world to explore if you were to start a new campaign with your current group you pause the one you're on now and you thought I'm going to open up one of these published books. I'm going to put boots on the ground wherever they land.
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That's a really good question.
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I have always had a soft spot forever on I've never played in ever on before but I think the ideas of ever own are very cool. I love the cool ashtar and their psychic, spiritual bond with Corey spirits and the dowel corps the plane of dreams that that untold abomination To keep trying to burst through and take over the material world from I love the sort of post World War One magic fantasy aesthetic it's got going on. Everyone is a very realised setting, which makes it really attractive to me but also very intimidating. I, whenever I run a campaign, I almost always set it in a homebrew world. Not just because I have a lot of ideas in my head that I want to get down. But that is certainly true. But because of the amount of like freedom and collaborative ness it gives me with my players. And when I go to set boots on the ground in a public setting, I always feel a little bit constricted when it comes to making the sort of character connections, because I want my players to be able to world build with me. I wrote an article about that on d&d beyond a week or two ago about collaborative world building. That's a very great fun part of the end for me. So that's why everyone is always intimidated me not because I you know, not because I don't want to do the research. I do the research all the time. So I can write about these settings, but it intimidates me. Because I know that if I want to bring my players in, they will have to become semi experts about the setting as well if we want to get to the level of detail, and the level of involved witness that I really enjoy in d&d campaigns, whereas if it's a public setting, it's a blank slate and we could just kind of brainstorm and come up with whatever we want. Public settings, obviously, you know, the books tell you, you know, you're playing in your own version of the Forgotten Realms or have ever on or wild mount or wherever you're playing. So it's like, Don't Don't be intimidated that way. The the books and my own advice go against what I feel that intimidation, I feel all the time but Because I work on d&d in a somewhat professional capacity I I do feel intimidated to change the work of a designer, who is who are my colleagues? Because I'm like, Who am I to say that I know what's better for me than they do? And it's a stupid question. It's a stupid little anxiety because obviously, I know it's better for me to they made a setting that was fun for them, right, just like I was saying they needed something that was fun for them, and their audience would come to it. And if the audience, no audience is going to connect with a product 100% I mean, you're looking for a successful product, you want to find someone to connect to that, you know, 70 to 90% and the rest that 10 to 30% that they don't quite click with. They should be free to change it themselves. And in fact, because d&d is such an open game, they are free to change it themselves. So I Long story short, I would love to play an ever on, I'd love to run a campaign and never run. And it's it's my own worry and my own need to really tear the setting apart before I can run it. That keeps me from doing that. I think
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that's fair enough. I mean, the show on the city of towers is is a BAM off in its own and just understand the different different levels and the structures and the interplay of one subsection and crime family against this and that, yes, I can understand your view of it potentially being intimidating. And then you've got the wider world outside of just that one read it. Yeah, I get it. I do. But you spoke there about sort of the world building with your players and we've spoken about your fellow adepts and things like that. So who else is on your sort of design? List of maybe collaborate with a game or yet to collaborate with or even who would you like to dm for since you run your own games?
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Oh, there are there are so many people who I'd love to work with. And there are many. There are many people who I feel are like out of out of my reach because they are very high profile people who like to play RPGs I played a one on one d&d game with BJ Walters who's known for his work on La by night, a lot of Vampire the Masquerade stuff. And I you know, I would love to create something with him. I'd love to have a game with him. But it's always like when when will the opportunity arise? And am I am I going to like it's going to be difficult to make that partnership happen because we're both very busy professionals and Have a lot of stuff on our plate already. Let me just rattle off some names because these are people who I'd love to work with again. My Paul James injure caso always loved working with him. Matt Mercer. always a joy to work with him be Dave. He's super. He's super fun. He's got a great, great energy and his dming is beyond cool. Let me see here. I would love to work with Daniel Kwan who's part of the dungeons and Asians podcast. I think his his work on taking apart. Non Western d&d settings is frankly inspirational and should should set a standard for people who want to create non Western settings from here on out tales of a dia known by Alfa stream online. Very smart guy very, very fun to work with. His work on ashes of athis and The acquisitions incorporated DND book are beyond compare and find people off the top of my head. Those are people who I'd love to work with sounds
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each of them in their own right have contributed something unique and special and I'm sure
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Oh, I'm and I, I just worked with these two people on a project d&d beyond, but any opportunity that I would have to work with McKenzie to armus and Celeste Connor, which again would just like, mean the world to me, those two are designers that anyone who's working in d&d would would kill to have on their team. Just because they have not only the assumingly boundless supply of creative energy, but also an incredible attitude and a very collaborative nature. That's kind of the secret sauce when it comes to making RPG is is collaborative nature. If you look at it wizards book, any official d&d book that's come out in the past couple of years or so you will see a truly immense number of writers. And, you know, say nothing of artists and graphic designers and so on that work on it. And putting together a book like that, that's some 320 pages with full colour art that you know, matches the story they're telling. And with 13 different chapters that all tell a complete story, but they can be played individually on their own is a feat that defies believability. But because the people who work on these books have a collaborative spirit, and they don't have huge egos, they're able to work together and drop their own. You know, they're willing to kill their darlings so to speak easily and set aside their individual wants for the sake of a really damn good book, the end of the day. That is something that often goes underappreciated. In The creative work and making RPGs.
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Absolutely. Celeste is also a podcaster. So you should definitely go and check out her podcast as well.
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And mentor me. Excellent.
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Yeah, so I can't recommend them highly enough. So you spoke there about the amount of people that go together to put one of these published books together. What we mentioned some advice earlier, but is there any more advice you would like to give for potential future creators or writers or even editors as you've mentioned your your other half? Is there any more advice you would you would like to share with them?
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Yes, there there is a lot that I could say on the topic of being a good RPG creator being a good artistic person in general. And I think my advice to start with kind of track me back to That story I told at the very beginning of the show, how I got to where I am. And even though my story is is unique, and you may at best find some similarities, some ways that you can leverage similar opportunities in a way that suits you. There is some general advice that I can give that I think will be more useful than just kind of hearing how I did it. And the first bit of advice that I would give to any RPG creator is to be determined and find the joy that is intrinsic in your work. I feel like I said something similar to this earlier on, but you want to find intrinsic rewards when you're creating RPGs that would be like the joy of writing a really solid piece of prose brings you joy, the act of making a really slick encounter is something that just sets your brain on fire. And it's not about how many people started following me on Twitter because of this cool RPG post I made or how many people bought my first or second or third outing on the DM skilled because all of those extrinsic rewards will lead you to compare yourself with other people. You'll see people like empty black, the most successful guy in the DM skilled Look at his numbers, you'll think oh, no, we'll never get there. I don't do empty black numbers because I'm not empty black. I do not have you know, I do not publish 20 different RPG books a year on the DM skilled and and frankly, no one can do that. I don't know how mt does it. He has a certain system that he's created. for himself that that gives him the ability to do something like that. So comparing yourself to other people, the comparisons even comparisons that seem fair that seem like apples to apples are never the way they seem because you don't know what's been going on with those people. You don't know what their process is what their internal life is like what their home life. Life is, like. Is this person married? Do they have someone who is giving them health insurance as a freelancer? Do they have someone who makes their household financially stable all on their own? Do they have someone who you know always cooks dinner for them? Do they have someone who does any number of invisible things that gives them a leg up? Compared to you, you never know that you never know. So you can only judge yourself by your own standards. And you can only find the fun in RPG making by well, having fun writing art Jeez, don't do it if it's a chore. Similarly to that, I would say that the one extrinsic reward that I would say is always worth it is making friends in the RPG industry. And like I said at the very beginning of this, my first and best friend in RPGs is James intercom. So the guy who was one of my first people I worked with, on insider when I was entering the industry, I was the guy who gave him his first job. And that just naturally made a strong connection between the two of us.
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That
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can be the value of social platforms like Twitter is that it gets you socially connected with other people. The act of making a friend in a creative field is reward enough, but these friends can benefit you in many ways. Your friends will promote your work, your friends can be playtesters for you, your friends can give you advice, they can help you when you're feeling defeated. The goal of making friends in RPG is is not to give you some kind of material advantage, but it can often turn out that way. And people know when you're going to take advantage of them, right if you try and make friends and if you'll just because of what they can do for you, they'll be able to tell. So, seek, seek friends, seek people who will stand side by side with you who will who will support you, when the going invariably gets tough. But do it because you like them do it because you have a common connection. Don't just do it for what they can provide you. It's a third piece of advice that I can give people who want to get into RPGs Be patient. This is hard advice to hear, I think for anyone in creative field. I when I started working on DND I was going to school for theatre performance, which gives me the the lovely experience of leaving theatre for the only profession less stable RPG right. And from from there, both of my parents were were professional performers for a certain period in their life and they aren't anymore. They have, quote unquote, real jobs now. And when they were performing, I know my dad at least set a an ultimatum for himself. Essentially he told me this when I was still very into doing theatre performance as a profession. He was like, when I was 18. I set myself a goal and if I don't make it in 10 years, I'm going to give it up. And I did it for 10 years and when I was 28, I gave it up In that context, 10 years can sound like both an incredibly long amount of time to struggle with no success. But it also can seem like an incredibly short period of time, given the context of someone's full life.
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So I,
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I say to you this, if you want to make writing RPGs, your full time gig, if like that's what you want as a career as a profession, then set yourself an ultimatum. Give yourself, I don't know, five years, five or 10 years. And at the end of every year, if you've been busting your chops, trying to make it work, you're sinking money into this. You're thinking time and effort and emotional strain into creating things that make you happy. check in at the end of every year. Ask yourself, is this fun for me? Do I still can I still find the fun in creation If the answer's no, then you need to reconsider what you're doing. You need to find out why it's not fine. Is it not fun just because you aren't being successful? Is it not fun because you burned yourself out, you've hustled so hard, that you can no longer remember why you started in the first place. If like, if those things have happened, you need to take a break and figure some stuff out. Because that happens to a lot of people. It's happened to me before and like I've managed to work through it. I've managed to, you know, get myself into the other side of that burnout. But, I mean, burnout can can kill careers, and it's not fun. I mean, it's it's like it's like watching someone drink poison, and then just like suffer. It's creative poison, that burnout. But, you know, if at the end of the every every year you're like, yeah, I'm not making much money, but I'm having fun. It's great. You know, I'd like to actually make money so I can make this a career in the future. It's only been like one or two years. Great. Keep going. If you We're able to keep putting in that money in that effort in the time and you're still having fun, keep pushing it because right now, what you've got yourself is essentially a somewhat expensive hobby that might make you some money in the future. People who play RPGs are used to having expensive hobbies. Look at the price of Warhammer For God's sake. As long as you're having as much fun making RPGs as you would be playing Warhammer with your friends and like I say, That's still a good investment for you. But like once you get to the end of your five years, you've reached your ultimatum period. And you're like, I still haven't made any money. Or like you know, my income has not exceeded what I've invested into this, then you need to stop and consider and think okay, am I okay? With this potentially just being a hobby forever. And some people are some people are totally, I would be happy if I were just doing this as a hobby forever. Some of my most my greatest fun in RPGs is from just dm And doing hobbyist stuff, they're 100% days where I'm like, where I'm working, right? They say, find a job you love. You never work a day in your life, dead wrong. I've worked some days. But when it gets down to it, I still love what I'm doing. So I keep doing it. If you've come to the end of your five years, and you're like, I'm making some money, I'm making some money, then you might still be kind of in kind of being a hobbyist position, right? Can you support yourself on the money you're making? RPGs? Do you think you can like keep building your audience if you gave it another five years? Right? These are the things you have to ask yourself every single I'd say here, ask yourself every single year when you're working in RPGs is just like, start thinking of it as more than a hobby. Start thinking of it as something. Is this a potential job for me if you want to make it a job? I guess just to boil all that down, find out what's important for you in making RPGs. And if you can satisfy what's important to you, it's worth it. But if all of your hard work, it's making you unhappy, and it's not satisfying that important core desire that you want it. Then you need to find another option. Man, that piece of advice sounded so dire. I don't want to sound like a downer. It's a great place to be. But there are some pretty harsh realities that people don't like to talk about. And I like to be a fun and uplifting and you know, a happy guy but I feel disingenuous if I if I don't really try and tell you the truth. When I'm here talking to you like this,
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I would say it was not so dour. It was it was Franken and an honest and that amount of honesty put across the street. show people that there aren't going to be struggles and that you know, as stealing from a completely different industry when the fun stops consider stopping to paraphrase it i think is is valuable advice because some people might hit a wall some people might drive themselves into financial trouble was trying to chase a dream that they've fallen out of love with so there's there's the light at the end of the tunnel that's hope they don't meet it for the wrong reasons.
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Yeah, yes.
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So and when you you're in a position such as such as yourself where you've been able to cultivate a following and an income and still be able to support yourself to whatever level of comfort you you live at then then you can remember why you started and enjoy it and and keep working.
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I couldn't have said I better myself.
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So, unless you have anything more to add, I think that sort of rounds out our time together today.
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You know, I could I could talk and ramble about RPGs all day long.
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But then, maybe if you have the time in the future, I'd love to speak to you again.
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I'd love to chat with you again, man.
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But yeah, so if you have nothing further,
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yeah, if I've got nothing further than I will say, it's been a great pleasure being on the show. Like I just said, You know, I, I'd love to talk with you again. Love to dig even deeper into the weeds of what makes writing for RPG is so much fun.
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I look forward to doing that with you. We'll definitely get that sorted out.
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Fantastic. Yeah, if you want to find me on the internet, I spend more time than I care to admit on twitter at James J. hake. You can find my work on the DMS guild in the links below. And check out what I write on d&d beyond.com three days a week and countless the week. A new players guide Last one on one spell spotlight how to play monsters. It's all there. Got a deep archive for you to go diving in. So
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check it out. Absolutely today. As of recording today, the encounter of the week is evil on the ICC. So definitely check that one out. Very interesting encounter in support of the special delivery storyline. Thank you very much, James.
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Thank you very much, Adam.
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Thanks for listening. If you want to hear more of us or to get in contact with us, you can find us on Twitter at Return Snyder. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and also if you wish to support the channel on patreon@patreon.com slash nice return. music and sound effects provided for this episode. are from epidemic sounds calm
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
