1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,180
Robert Kuang: Bill,
2
00:00:05,070 --> 00:00:12,090
Welcome to Side by Side, a podcast where I
Robert Kuang take you inside conversations
3
00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:17,970
with artists, creatives, healers and
warriors taking the charge in their
4
00:00:17,970 --> 00:00:19,170
transformational story.
5
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:26,010
Today's guest is Billy Winn, the author of
the empty path finding fulfillment through
6
00:00:26,010 --> 00:00:27,510
the radical art of lessening.
7
00:00:28,590 --> 00:00:33,360
As a student of Buddhism and mindfulness
for 30 years, he received his meditation
8
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,550
teaching certification under Jack
Kornfield and Tara Brach, and his lay Zen
9
00:00:38,550 --> 00:00:43,140
Buddhist ordination from the Zen Center of
Denver, where he teaches classes and
10
00:00:43,140 --> 00:00:48,360
serves on the board. In this conversation,
we unpack the practice of lessening in a
11
00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:53,340
world built on the pursuit of having more
and its connection to Buddhist concepts
12
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,790
such as detachment, freedom and suffering.
13
00:00:58,410 --> 00:01:05,880
You can find more side by side episodes at
sidebyside podcast.podbean.com, and, if
14
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,880
you'd like to connect with me about my
services, please visit
15
00:01:10,950 --> 00:01:12,120
www.robertkuanghome.com.
16
00:01:17,460 --> 00:01:21,540
All right, so it's nice to meet you,
Billy. I'm speaking to another Colorado.
17
00:01:21,540 --> 00:01:25,800
And I grew up in Longmont when I came to
America, and all of my friends went to
18
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,010
Boulder. Did you actually grow up in
Colorado yourself?
19
00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,210
Billy Wynne: No, I grew up in Virginia,
and I moved out here in 2009 my wife and
20
00:01:33,210 --> 00:01:33,750
my daughter.
21
00:01:33,810 --> 00:01:36,990
Robert Kuang: Okay, gotcha how? How's
Colorado treating you?
22
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,620
Billy Wynne: Oh, amazing. Amazing. Yeah,
no, we've got no plans to leave. We're
23
00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:42,720
actually moving to Carbondale in June.
24
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:43,470
Robert Kuang: Oh, nice.
25
00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:47,430
Billy Wynne: It's been. We've loved it,
the lifestyle, the weather, yeah, yeah.
26
00:01:47,460 --> 00:01:50,880
Robert Kuang: You know, growing up 20
minutes outside of Boulder, I didn't know
27
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,300
this because it was just, I was just going
to school, but there was quite the
28
00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:58,890
meditative spiritual, you know, some would
say, like a hippie community there that I
29
00:01:58,890 --> 00:02:02,880
just kind of grew up around, but didn't
really recognize at the time. So it's
30
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,050
really funny to be diving in with you. And
congratulations on your book. By the way,
31
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:12,240
I'm curious what the writing process was
like for you. What made you decide to take
32
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,800
on this book that I think to some people
may be somewhat daunting, and how did this
33
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:17,280
begin?
34
00:02:17,310 --> 00:02:21,480
Billy Wynne: Sure, well, it really
happened after I closed Awake, which was
35
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,710
the alcohol-free bar that my wife and I
had started in Denver. I was decompressing
36
00:02:25,740 --> 00:02:29,640
in the fall of 2022 I write about this in
my book. Kind of reached my wits end in
37
00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:34,110
terms of stress, and I had layered opening
that bar on top of my the rest of my
38
00:02:34,110 --> 00:02:38,760
professional life. So it was very, very
busy time. It was in that fall that I
39
00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,690
realized that I had really bought into
this idea of mooring as the path to
40
00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,190
happiness and fulfillment. And actually
it's really the opposite in my, you know,
41
00:02:47,190 --> 00:02:51,030
experience of lessening and distilling our
experience of life to really be grateful
42
00:02:51,030 --> 00:02:55,410
for what we have. And so that was kind of
the spark of inspiration and but kind of
43
00:02:55,410 --> 00:02:59,790
more practically speaking, my wife was had
an idea of working on a book at the time,
44
00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:04,650
and she had a book coach, Ruby Warrington,
who's an excellent author and book coach
45
00:03:04,650 --> 00:03:08,940
and writes a lot in the alcohol free space
and other other areas. So I said, Well,
46
00:03:08,940 --> 00:03:12,270
let me talk to Ruby. And you know, because
I wanted to write about this, this kind of
47
00:03:12,300 --> 00:03:19,260
realization I had around mooring versus
lessening. And Ruby had a book coming out
48
00:03:19,260 --> 00:03:23,610
that spring. And so she introduced me to
Bess Matassa, who became my book coach.
49
00:03:23,670 --> 00:03:29,250
And Bess really helped me turn this kind
of hodgepodge of relatively vague ideas
50
00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:36,480
into a more concrete book concept, and she
helped me write the book proposal, which
51
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,730
your listeners may or may not know is a
key step in having a non fiction book at
52
00:03:41,730 --> 00:03:46,290
least published, it's really a different
path for memoirs and fiction, but for non
53
00:03:46,290 --> 00:03:50,790
fiction, a book proposal is really the
tried and true way to seek publication.
54
00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:55,710
And so in that I wrote the introduction,
and I wrote the chapter four about work,
55
00:03:55,740 --> 00:04:00,180
which is now in the book. And really
through that process, with her number one,
56
00:04:00,180 --> 00:04:03,360
I figured out what the book was about.
It's about emptiness. Is about my
57
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,800
experience of, you know, the art of
lessening, and about my own my own life,
58
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,520
really, in many ways, she taught me a lot
about how to write in terms of, you know,
59
00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,000
for a broader audience, to try to take
these, you know, especially with regard to
60
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,280
the Buddhist ideas, kind of esoteric and
maybe mysterious, inaccessible concepts,
61
00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:24,000
into something that hopefully translates,
you know, it's practical and meaningful
62
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,630
for anyone, whether they're Buddhist or
not, or have any, you know, background in
63
00:04:27,630 --> 00:04:31,440
that field or not. And so that took
several months. And then with that book
64
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:37,530
proposal, I shopped for an agent. I sent
it out to about 20 in 19 said no, and one
65
00:04:37,530 --> 00:04:42,990
said yes, Leslie Meredith, who is now my
agent at Dystel, Goderich & Bourret, and
66
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,130
Leslie spent another couple months with me
refining the proposal yet again for the
67
00:04:47,130 --> 00:04:51,810
publisher audience, and she said to Delta,
20 or so publishers, and again, 19 said
68
00:04:51,810 --> 00:04:55,740
no, and one said yes, and that was a new
world library. Eckhart Tolle is their kind
69
00:04:55,740 --> 00:04:59,160
of marquee name. They have many other
great authors that they publish. Andyeah,
70
00:05:00,090 --> 00:05:07,260
and, and then that was probably, let's see
the end of 2023, that I signed that deal.
71
00:05:07,260 --> 00:05:10,650
And then Jason Gardner at New World
library was like, Okay, write the rest of
72
00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:14,010
the book. I was like, You sure you don't
want to kind of see bits and pieces as I
73
00:05:14,010 --> 00:05:18,120
go? And he's like, no, just, just make a
track with the introduction and chapter
74
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,040
four that you gave us. Okay? And I was
like, okay, you know, you say so. So I
75
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:29,550
wrote the remaining nine chapters in the
winter, spring of 24 and sent that
76
00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:33,810
manuscript to him, you know. And I think,
I guess, in April, you know, from there
77
00:05:33,810 --> 00:05:40,710
on, it really was more technical. I mean,
he was, they were very easy and supportive
78
00:05:40,710 --> 00:05:45,060
to work with. Kind of trusted my
creativity at that point, which I really
79
00:05:45,090 --> 00:05:49,770
appreciate. And so it was, you know, but
still a very, you know, relatively arduous
80
00:05:49,770 --> 00:05:54,630
process of copy editing, just revising and
rising, rising revising and then, and that
81
00:05:54,630 --> 00:05:59,280
was really complete in the fall of 24 and
it went into production in late fall 24
82
00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:02,190
and so just working on kind of launch,
launch activities, and the book came out
83
00:06:02,190 --> 00:06:06,390
last Tuesday. So it's really been goodness
exciting to finally. It's really over two
84
00:06:06,390 --> 00:06:07,560
and a half years later.
85
00:06:07,590 --> 00:06:10,050
Robert Kuang: Yeah, you can finally
exhale.
86
00:06:12,540 --> 00:06:19,085
Billy Wynne: Yeah. I mean, I remember
somebody telling me early on when I had
87
00:06:19,188 --> 00:06:27,370
the, you know, I think I had a first draft
of a proposal at that point, and he's
88
00:06:27,472 --> 00:06:35,552
like, you know, it's going to take about
two years. I was like, No way. How? No
89
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,279
I think people, when they think of
creative projects, they don't realize
90
00:06:32,328 --> 00:06:36,238
sometimes a labor of love, and sometimes
people are like, Well, why would you do
91
00:06:35,654 --> 00:06:44,041
way. How could it possibly take two years?
And it was definitely two years or more
92
00:06:36,287 --> 00:06:40,148
this? And I was like, You need to ask
every single author, because they'll tell
93
00:06:40,197 --> 00:06:43,912
you something wildly different, and
probably still will be confusing because
94
00:06:43,961 --> 00:06:45,770
of the labor of love that's involved.
95
00:06:44,143 --> 00:06:45,780
from that point.
96
00:06:46,140 --> 00:06:48,960
Robert Kuang: Was there any part of the
process that was, like, the most
97
00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:50,580
surprising to you?
98
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:58,000
Unknown: I guess, you know, the process of
refining the proposal was, was very
99
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,680
involved and, like, like, you know, just
persistent line by line editing. And
100
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,900
that's really credit to Bess and Leslie,
my book coach and agent. And yet the
101
00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:10,800
process with the publisher was not like
that at all. Like I said, it was much more
102
00:07:10,860 --> 00:07:16,860
open. And really they most, 90 plus
percent of their edits were more technical
103
00:07:16,860 --> 00:07:22,640
in nature, not substantive. So I expected
that to kind of be the beginning, and then
104
00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,900
it would get, you know, even more kind of
in depth, and rewriting the book, really,
105
00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:31,040
with the publisher. And at least for me,
in this book, that did not turn out to be
106
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,900
the case. I also, I'll say this also
speaks to your first question. I
107
00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:41,140
personally really enjoyed the process of
writing itself. I'm fortunate that I was
108
00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:45,880
at a spot in my career where I had some
free time and flexibility during the week
109
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,480
to write. It wasn't like nights and
weekends. I could write during the day,
110
00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:53,980
and particularly waking up in the morning.
You know, my son goes off to school, I get
111
00:07:53,980 --> 00:07:58,180
a cup of coffee and to have a couple hours
at least. And it did take me, I had to
112
00:07:58,180 --> 00:08:03,120
have at least three hours to feel like I
could really get immersed and get some
113
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,340
momentum going and produce, you know, a
decent body of work for the day. That part
114
00:08:08,340 --> 00:08:12,180
I really, really enjoyed, felt creative,
you know, felt interesting. Like it was
115
00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:15,000
like, Okay, I'm gonna find out what my
words put out today. You know, it's like,
116
00:08:15,180 --> 00:08:18,360
you don't know until you just start
tapping away at the keyboard, what, what's
117
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,340
gonna appear. Yeah. And so I was like,
Well, what am I gonna say about, you know,
118
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,140
play and equanimity today,
119
00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:53,871
Billy Wynne: until I write it. So that was
actually fun. I it was not like, Oh God, I
120
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,018
Robert Kuang: That's so wonderful to hear,
because people often get there's a
121
00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:46,663
particular image that people have of like
the solitude, suffering writer, so to
122
00:08:46,721 --> 00:08:51,367
speak. So it's really nice to hear that
number one is a collaborative process at
123
00:08:51,425 --> 00:08:56,187
the end of the day. But also number two,
it can definitely be born out of a little
124
00:08:54,260 --> 00:09:24,962
gotta write 1000 pages today. Or, you
know, it wasn't, I didn't look at it that
125
00:08:56,245 --> 00:09:00,484
bit of joy. And it makes sense,
considering your book is called The Empty
126
00:09:00,542 --> 00:09:05,478
Path you're exploring, kind of a different
way of looking at these words that I think
127
00:09:05,536 --> 00:09:10,355
the than what people are generally used to
when you think of emptiness and also the
128
00:09:10,413 --> 00:09:14,943
practice of lessening, which are two
topics that will basically be focusing on
129
00:09:15,001 --> 00:09:19,414
this conversation. People might be
thinking of a lack or to do without or to
130
00:09:19,472 --> 00:09:23,827
be without, but this book is really
speaking on these two terms, really, or
131
00:09:23,885 --> 00:09:28,821
concepts very differently. So maybe we can
just start there. It's very broad. But how
132
00:09:25,351 --> 00:09:56,053
way, and it didn't feel that way at the
time. It was actually that was the most
133
00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:32,480
do you approach these ideas and why are
they important to you?
134
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,306
Yeah, well, thank you. So right gets right
to the heart of the book, and I think that
135
00:09:37,362 --> 00:09:41,677
the standard kind of definition and
understanding of emptiness is the reason
136
00:09:41,734 --> 00:09:46,390
that it is usually skipped over entirely
or given, you know, a very light brush in
137
00:09:46,447 --> 00:09:50,989
books about Buddhism. You know, because
lots of lots of books about Buddhism are
138
00:09:51,046 --> 00:09:55,644
out there, and many of them talk about
compassion and love and joy and peace. And
139
00:09:55,701 --> 00:09:59,960
you know, all of those are wonderful
fruits of Buddhist thought and prayer.
140
00:09:56,442 --> 00:09:59,940
fun part.
141
00:09:59,940 --> 00:10:07,178
Practice, also, of course, thought and
practice and many other spiritual
142
00:10:07,278 --> 00:10:15,522
traditions. And yet emptiness, for me, is
kind of at the core, like, you know, the
143
00:10:15,622 --> 00:10:23,062
understanding of emptiness, the
realization of emptiness, is really at the
144
00:10:23,162 --> 00:10:31,305
core of the of the tradition that that
unlocks all of these, you know, the bounty
145
00:10:31,406 --> 00:10:39,046
of these gifts of life that we can then
experience. But it's kind of, it's a
146
00:10:39,147 --> 00:10:46,888
little bit tricky, especially at first
glance, to understand why, rather than
147
00:10:46,988 --> 00:10:55,332
nihilism or meaninglessness, or, you know,
sort of despair, emptiness is really the
148
00:10:55,433 --> 00:11:03,676
nature of things, that is why nothing is
separate, right? It's, it's, you know, we
149
00:11:03,777 --> 00:11:11,920
can we have this, I think, kind of primal
feeling that, that there's some kind of
150
00:11:12,020 --> 00:11:19,862
unity or oneness to our existence, right?
That we get different glimpses of in
151
00:11:19,962 --> 00:11:28,407
different ways, in different you know, in
our life. And I the way that Buddhism sort
152
00:11:28,508 --> 00:11:36,651
of explains why that is the case for me,
is the most direct and clear. And at the
153
00:11:36,751 --> 00:11:44,794
heart of it is emptiness. And there's a
couple of different aspects of emptiness
154
00:11:44,894 --> 00:11:53,439
which help us understand what it is that I
go into detail in the book. One of them is
155
00:11:53,540 --> 00:12:01,783
impermanence. So all things you know, kind
of come into being and go out of being,
156
00:12:01,884 --> 00:12:10,228
and also in every moment, all things are
changing and becoming something different,
157
00:12:10,329 --> 00:12:18,673
even, you know, moment to moment, right?
It's not the same river. It's not the same
158
00:12:18,773 --> 00:12:26,715
person stepping in the river. No person
can step into the same river, you know,
159
00:12:26,816 --> 00:12:34,758
twice. So it's that, that basic concept,
and then the other is the idea of what
160
00:12:34,858 --> 00:12:42,800
Buddha called no self, which basically
just means that if you examine something
161
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,092
Robert Kuang: Yeah, you know, this is a
very early quote, I believe. And I just
162
00:12:42,901 --> 00:12:51,044
with chair or this cup or ourselves, and
you look at all the different aspects of
163
00:12:45,151 --> 00:12:49,537
wanted to read this out loud from your
book. "After exhausting every other
164
00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:54,278
strategy, from excessively indulgent
hedonism to total ascetic abandonment, the
165
00:12:51,144 --> 00:12:58,885
it as it's presented here and now, but
also the things that contributed to it
166
00:12:54,337 --> 00:12:59,197
Buddha saw the emptiness of all things, of
every manner in which we experience our
167
00:12:58,986 --> 00:13:07,028
coming into being, and all the different
ways of thinking about it and so forth,
168
00:12:59,256 --> 00:13:03,938
lives, as the Heart Sutra says it was this
profound insight that enabled him to
169
00:13:03,997 --> 00:13:07,850
sunder the bonds, abandon the attachments
that create suffering."
170
00:13:07,129 --> 00:13:15,171
not one of those things makes the thing
what it is. Is it the plastic, or is the
171
00:13:07,850 --> 00:13:09,557
And so initially, even as someone who's
familiar, at least with the concepts
172
00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:11,332
without being a practicing Buddhist,
emptiness and detachment and all of that,
173
00:13:11,355 --> 00:13:13,242
there's like a I don't want that automatic
reaction sometimes. And yet the word that
174
00:13:13,264 --> 00:13:15,107
I think people really understand is that,
oh, our attachm ents are is what creates
175
00:13:15,129 --> 00:13:16,904
suffering. And I do think as much as those
words are somewhat like people don't
176
00:13:15,272 --> 00:13:23,314
water, or is it, you know, what makes the
cup a cup? And if you really, and I do
177
00:13:16,927 --> 00:13:18,702
understand them, people do understand
suffering. And there's always that desire
178
00:13:18,724 --> 00:13:20,612
to reduce and lessen suffering, and people
have been trying to figure that out for a
179
00:13:20,634 --> 00:13:22,454
long time. So I just wanted to connect
that as well, that a lot of this has to do
180
00:13:22,476 --> 00:13:23,870
with the fact that we walk into suffering
over and over again.
181
00:13:23,415 --> 00:13:31,658
this a couple times throughout the book,
because it's really a key thing to try to
182
00:13:23,870 --> 00:13:28,569
Billy Wynne: Yeah, yeah. And it's really
this, this idea that that I'm over here
183
00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:34,250
and that thing that, you know, either I
desire or I want to avoid is over there,
184
00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:39,600
understand there's not one thing, the fact
that there's this kind of inherent,
185
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:39,861
you know, and I'm over here and that
person is over there, and we are separate.
186
00:13:39,701 --> 00:13:48,145
abiding identity to things is also a lens
for viewing its emptiness. And when things
187
00:13:39,932 --> 00:13:45,473
Is, is why suffering arises, right? It's
why we feel scarcity, it's why we feel
188
00:13:45,543 --> 00:13:51,154
fear, it's why we feel craving. The reason
that the recognition and inquiry into
189
00:13:48,246 --> 00:13:56,188
are empty, they don't have boundaries,
they are not separate. So that's kind of
190
00:13:51,224 --> 00:13:56,906
emptiness is helpful is because it helps
us soften those attachments. We start to
191
00:13:56,289 --> 00:14:04,230
the one way to understand how really, we
are not separate from all those things
192
00:13:56,976 --> 00:14:02,867
see things differently, and we become less
attached to them, whether it's be craving
193
00:14:02,938 --> 00:14:08,829
or aversion, and that's really what helps
us ease the suffering in our own lives and
194
00:14:04,331 --> 00:14:12,675
around us, because these boundaries that
we imagine to be there are not really, not
195
00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:14,721
more, you know, kind of specifically, what
it needs is that sad things are going to
196
00:14:12,776 --> 00:14:21,019
really, the final word you know, on how
these things are really tapping into that.
197
00:14:14,791 --> 00:14:20,262
keep happening, frustrating things are
going to, you know, just all of that is
198
00:14:20,332 --> 00:14:25,312
going to keep life is going to keep
happening. But we can be with those
199
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:28,861
And it takes a book to really try to
understand. It takes examples from life.
200
00:14:25,382 --> 00:14:31,064
experiences in a different way. So the
rather just being kind of tossed around by
201
00:14:28,961 --> 00:14:37,205
It takes meditation practices to really
sink into this idea of emptiness. But when
202
00:14:31,134 --> 00:14:37,096
the waves of our, you know, the experience
of our life, we know we can have a kind of
203
00:14:37,166 --> 00:14:42,707
this abiding piece, right, that that the
waves of life cannot really, you know,
204
00:14:37,305 --> 00:14:45,850
we do, we really can change our experience
of life. And it is very practical here and
205
00:14:42,777 --> 00:14:48,599
push aside, and the way, you know, a key
way, at least, to tap into that is through
206
00:14:45,951 --> 00:14:53,792
now, and it does start to open up these
benefits of our own life, and also the
207
00:14:48,669 --> 00:14:54,280
this experience of emptiness, and also
meditation practices and other other sort
208
00:14:53,893 --> 00:14:58,920
Buddhist tradition of joy and peace and happiness.
209
00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:58,910
of features of this path of lessening that
I outline in the book.
210
00:14:59,010 --> 00:15:02,700
Robert Kuang: Yeah, and I want to go into
the kind of the structure of each chapter.
211
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,200
It's very deliberate, and they're kind of
different, different components, right?
212
00:15:07,230 --> 00:15:11,670
And it's very deliberately structured from
the more autobiographical portions, which
213
00:15:11,670 --> 00:15:16,200
I found deeply moving. And also, I just
appreciate anyone who's willing to share
214
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:21,030
with that level of transparency to guided
meditations, to the discussion of
215
00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:25,620
concepts. Can you talk about how you
formulated these chapters that way?
216
00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:30,030
Billy Wynne: Yes. So yeah, thank you for
touching on that. There's really three
217
00:15:30,030 --> 00:15:35,880
kind of legs to the stool of the book in
each chapter, and each one starts with an
218
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:40,170
autobiographical anecdote from my life.
And the reason for that is a couple fold
219
00:15:40,170 --> 00:15:45,840
number one, I did want to. I felt like
just launching into Buddhist ideas and
220
00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:50,160
meditation practices would be incomplete
without demonstrating how they have
221
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,540
manifested in my own life and really
anchoring them there. And I didn't want to
222
00:15:54,750 --> 00:15:58,920
also, you know, kind of pretend. I call it
the I once was lost and now and found, you
223
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,420
know, narrative arc where it's like, okay,
I was a mess before and now, and a lot of
224
00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:07,470
books follow the start, right? And now I'm
like, you know, cured, and everything's
225
00:16:07,470 --> 00:16:12,030
wonderful, but everybody knows that's not
how life actually is. I've never met
226
00:16:12,030 --> 00:16:17,430
anyone who life is like that for so the
truth is that that we had these
227
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:21,150
experiences, and hopefully we learned
something from them, right? And we we find
228
00:16:21,150 --> 00:16:25,320
new practices, we discover new wisdom, and
we start to integrate these into our life
229
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,950
and and yes, we can change. I mean, that's
the hopeful part of this book, and what I
230
00:16:28,950 --> 00:16:32,010
hope people get from it is like the
underlying message is that, like, You are
231
00:16:32,010 --> 00:16:35,970
worthy of peace and joy in your life, and
you're you know, you can experience it
232
00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:41,370
more frequently, and there are ways that
you can do that. But at the same time, the
233
00:16:41,370 --> 00:16:46,320
wheel of life continues to turn. And it's
not, it's not that pain and discomfort go
234
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,150
away, but that, you know, you become more
comfortable with them, and you kind of can
235
00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:55,440
learn how to navigate them. So anyway, so
that that's key reason why
236
00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:59,130
autobiographical component is there, and
then, really, yeah, there's, there's a
237
00:16:59,130 --> 00:17:03,990
portion of each chapter. There's a
different facet of the jewel of emptiness.
238
00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:08,010
So it's, there's non self, there's
impermanence, there's kind of the
239
00:17:08,010 --> 00:17:11,490
interdependence of things, there's
equanimity, I talk about forgiveness.
240
00:17:11,490 --> 00:17:16,230
There's just different teachings that can
help us get closer and more personally
241
00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:21,930
intimate with this core idea of emptiness.
And then, and then, yes, each chapter ends
242
00:17:21,930 --> 00:17:27,090
with a guided meditation. And folks can
also listen to those on my website, Billy
243
00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:30,870
win.com because it's a little funky to
read a meditation while you're trying to
244
00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:37,050
meditate. So and there it is really to
because it's one thing to understand. You
245
00:17:37,050 --> 00:17:40,980
know, with our discursive, intellectual
mind, some of these ideas and emptiness
246
00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:45,600
is, you know, the Paramount example of
this. It's like it can make sense to us,
247
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,710
sort of on paper and words, but unless we
really feel it in our bones and our
248
00:17:49,710 --> 00:17:54,180
marrow, it's probably not going to change
our life. And that's where meditation can
249
00:17:54,180 --> 00:17:58,920
be important. It's like you really want to
settle into this and feel, you know, the
250
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:03,750
truth of this for yourself you know, first
person perspective, that's when it's
251
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:06,510
really going to start to have a
transformative effect. And so that's why
252
00:18:06,510 --> 00:18:07,680
the meditations are there.
253
00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:10,170
Robert Kuang: Thank you for sharing that.
Because, you know, I think people think
254
00:18:10,170 --> 00:18:15,240
of, well, these practices are there when I
have the time and space and quiet, you
255
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,900
know, finally the kids are out of the
house, and then maybe I can look at this
256
00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:21,720
and try to sit and be with my thoughts and
feelings, right?
257
00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:26,610
Such is life, it may not always be the
case, so I'm curious. You know, readers
258
00:18:26,610 --> 00:18:30,510
should really dive into your book, because
you do share quite a bit about your life.
259
00:18:30,510 --> 00:18:34,080
But can you give an example of when it may
have been very challenging to practice
260
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,130
emptiness and detachment and lessening,
and what happened after?
261
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,170
Billy Wynne: Gosh, well, how about this
morning.
262
00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:46,080
I get the car. So I dropped my son off at
school, and I don't want to over share
263
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,730
here, but let's just say he, you know,
wants to have a party at our house this
264
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:56,220
spring, and so I was working on that
question, and we want to try to my wife,
265
00:18:56,220 --> 00:19:00,690
and I want to try to make that work, but
there are certain parameters that we have
266
00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:05,160
to put around that. He's in eighth grade.
I've already said that, so, you know, put
267
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,030
around that concept. And, you know, he
didn't like all the things that I was
268
00:19:09,030 --> 00:19:13,680
saying. And so it was very challenging
because, you know, from the My kind of ego
269
00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:17,490
self, which was definitely arising as it
does, it's like, Hey, I'm trying to be
270
00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:20,460
nice here, you know, we're trying to make
this work for you. And you're, you know,
271
00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:24,810
kind of now negotiating the details, you
know, that kind of thing. So, like, what
272
00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:29,340
the heck is, you know, a natural response,
and very often is the response that we
273
00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:35,580
give in difficult circumstances. But also
I was remembering, and I've had done this
274
00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:39,600
1000s of times, and I do talk about a
couple of incidents with my my son, I also
275
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,420
have a daughter, you know, and then with
my wife, you know, these people who are
276
00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:45,720
close to us, it's often people we love the
most. This could be the most difficult,
277
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,950
right? We're the most attached. And I am
keeping in mind in this conversation this
278
00:19:49,950 --> 00:19:52,950
morning, fortunately, it doesn't always
happen, you know, I really, really love
279
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:58,770
this person, and I see him in a broader
context than just this conversation. First
280
00:19:58,770 --> 00:19:59,880
of all, you know, I see.
281
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:17,915
The depth of his life experience and all
of that, but also that I do have this, as
282
00:20:18,133 --> 00:20:36,267
I've practiced more and more and more this
kind of abiding sense of the underlying,
283
00:20:36,485 --> 00:20:53,090
you know, emptiness and therefore unity of
things, it does create a peaceful
284
00:20:53,308 --> 00:21:11,442
undertone to our lives, right? More often,
there are times where it goes away, goes
285
00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:28,483
out the window. But more and more it
starts to just be there. It starts to it
286
00:21:16,370 --> 00:21:19,728
Robert Kuang: I think, you know, with
family, it's often probably the best
287
00:21:19,783 --> 00:21:24,317
learning practice ground, if you will,
first for some of these things, and you do
288
00:21:24,373 --> 00:21:28,794
touch on towards the kind of the empty
path, there's the practice of lessening,
289
00:21:28,701 --> 00:21:46,180
starts to be, some call it the centered
like, you know, the centered place where
290
00:21:28,850 --> 00:21:33,383
and maybe we can parse that out a little
bit more for people, because from when I
291
00:21:33,439 --> 00:21:37,861
am interpreting listening, it's like a
maybe a little bit of a reframe meaning.
292
00:21:37,917 --> 00:21:42,562
Kind of people when see it, they may see
it in a very like, literal way, but you're
293
00:21:42,618 --> 00:21:46,760
talking about it in a very specific way.
Can you unpack that a little bit?
294
00:21:46,398 --> 00:22:03,876
it's like, even though his response is not
what I prefer, right? I don't have to
295
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,734
Billy Wynne: Yeah. Thank you. So yes. Also
a word that I think on its face, you know,
296
00:21:50,789 --> 00:21:55,260
is often interpreted differently. So this
is not about, you know, giving quitting
297
00:21:55,316 --> 00:21:59,290
your job, or, you know, saying that
material comforts are wrong, or that
298
00:21:59,345 --> 00:22:03,816
reading another book is wrong, or that you
know, going on a meditation retreat is
299
00:22:03,872 --> 00:22:08,177
wrong. The crux of lessening is that the
belief that those things are what are
300
00:22:04,095 --> 00:22:22,447
trigger off into raising my voice and, you
know, shaming him, and, you know, kind of
301
00:22:08,232 --> 00:22:12,704
going to make you happy, right, are going
to fulfill you is, actually, is, is not
302
00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:17,009
the path to the solution. It's the path to
the harm, right? It's the cause of
303
00:22:17,064 --> 00:22:21,646
suffering. Is the idea that I'm not whole
and complete, I am lacking, and therefore
304
00:22:21,701 --> 00:22:26,172
I need these externally, you know, these
external things to to fill this hole and
305
00:22:22,665 --> 00:22:41,236
that direction. I can still I can I can be
clear. I don't have to agree to everything
306
00:22:26,228 --> 00:22:30,312
to make me happy and feel like I'm
fulfilled and complete. Because when we
307
00:22:30,368 --> 00:22:34,508
approach things with that attitude, it
never works, right? Because we never
308
00:22:34,563 --> 00:22:39,144
actually believed in our own worthiness.
We just, we just thought we, you know, the
309
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,560
next thing was going to be the thing that
finally, you know, solves our kind of
310
00:22:41,455 --> 00:22:58,277
that he's saying, but I can do it in a
gentler, more measured tone, which is,
311
00:22:43,616 --> 00:22:47,756
fundamental problem. So the path of
lessening is not about saying you can't
312
00:22:47,811 --> 00:22:52,116
have a family and a job and a busy life
and ambition and like all these things
313
00:22:52,172 --> 00:22:56,588
which I have, and most people you know
have, but it is saying that we can change
314
00:22:56,643 --> 00:23:01,004
our experience of those things to really
distill down our, you know, the way we
315
00:22:58,496 --> 00:23:15,537
which is going to be more effective? I
submit. I'm not an expert in parenting,
316
00:23:01,059 --> 00:23:05,420
approach these different parts of our
life. And instead of thinking, okay, more
317
00:23:05,475 --> 00:23:10,001
and more, I need more strategies. I need
more time. I need more, you know, effort.
318
00:23:10,056 --> 00:23:14,528
I need, you know that that's going to be
that's going to make me a better parent.
319
00:23:14,583 --> 00:23:18,888
For example, you know, I need to say more
things to my son. I need to add more
320
00:23:15,756 --> 00:23:32,578
but typically, I think in the long run, at
least, it's that's actually a more
321
00:23:18,944 --> 00:23:23,580
instruction to his you know, really it's,
it's lessening my belief and my attachment
322
00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:27,665
and my my application of those various
facets, which, you know, are often
323
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,971
unnecessary, and when things are more
distilled and really simplified, then I
324
00:23:32,026 --> 00:23:36,497
parent, you know, and then it's often more
at ease. It's clearer. I'm less easily
325
00:23:32,797 --> 00:23:51,149
effective strategy, and it feels better at
the time, and it yields better results in
326
00:23:36,552 --> 00:23:41,024
frustrated in the process you know, or you
apply it to your job, or whatever your
327
00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:45,329
goals or you know, your kind of your
interests are in your life, whatever you
328
00:23:45,384 --> 00:23:49,635
apply it to, it's not just more pleasant
to do it. It tends to yield a better
329
00:23:49,690 --> 00:23:54,051
outcome when we can approach it that way
of lessening which, and another way of
330
00:23:51,367 --> 00:24:08,846
the future. So that's a small case, and
you know, it wasn't flawless performance
331
00:23:54,106 --> 00:23:58,688
thinking about it, is to be less attached
to the outcome of the activity, right? So
332
00:23:58,743 --> 00:24:03,159
one thing I talk about in the compassion
chapter, like, in terms of, like, let's
333
00:24:03,214 --> 00:24:07,464
say you have a cause, like a social
justice, you know, outcome, or, you know,
334
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,936
a political belief, or something that that
you have, we all have them. It's like
335
00:24:09,064 --> 00:24:25,887
yet, right? But anybody had been there
other than me and him, you would know,
336
00:24:11,991 --> 00:24:16,407
there's one way to go about it, which
says, I have to get this at all costs. The
337
00:24:16,462 --> 00:24:21,099
people who are against me are dumb, right?
I have to defeat them. They're the enemy.
338
00:24:21,154 --> 00:24:25,349
And it's very easy, especially in
politics, to slip into that, that mindset,
339
00:24:25,404 --> 00:24:30,041
right? Or we can say, you know, this is a
complicated issue. I have a point of view.
340
00:24:26,105 --> 00:24:44,239
but, but I felt, I felt I felt myself okay
been here before, and I felt myself kind
341
00:24:30,096 --> 00:24:34,512
I believe in my point of view, and I'm
going to take steps to, you know, address
342
00:24:34,568 --> 00:24:38,763
this injustice that I perceive to be in
the world. There's other people with
343
00:24:38,818 --> 00:24:43,179
different points of view, you know, and
I'm going to address and navigate these
344
00:24:43,234 --> 00:24:47,540
steps compassionately. I'm going to
listen, I'm going to be understanding, I'm
345
00:24:44,458 --> 00:24:59,970
of sticking closer to that center than I
certainly have in other cases,
346
00:24:47,595 --> 00:24:51,900
going to be honest and have integrity
myself, but I'm not going to, like, fall
347
00:24:51,956 --> 00:24:56,482
into this, like I'm on this side of the,
you know, line, you're on the other side.
348
00:24:56,537 --> 00:24:59,960
And, you know, we're just going to fight
it out, right? So it.
349
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:04,812
Yeah, we do this all the time in lots of
different contexts. But I think it's not
350
00:25:04,872 --> 00:25:09,784
again, not only is it is, I think, kind of
right, but it is. It is more effective,
351
00:25:09,844 --> 00:25:14,816
you know, to to approach and less burnout,
and, you know, less frustration and less
352
00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:19,789
your pain in the process. So I do think
that that, and I say this in the book, how
353
00:25:19,848 --> 00:25:24,761
we go about our our endeavors, whatever
they may be, is as important as whether or
354
00:25:24,821 --> 00:25:29,733
not the Endeavor is successful, right, or
whatever the outcome of the Endeavor is.
355
00:25:29,793 --> 00:25:34,705
It's like we are making our presence and
having our impact as we go right, as much
356
00:25:34,765 --> 00:25:38,420
as we are kind of at the end of whatever
this thing might be.
357
00:25:38,420 --> 00:25:41,937
Robert Kuang: Thank you for saying that
about the art of lessening, because you
358
00:25:41,991 --> 00:25:45,996
gave some examples in the book of what
that could look like. And it was so
359
00:25:46,050 --> 00:25:49,893
expansive, and it opened up my
perspective, particularly you talk about
360
00:25:49,947 --> 00:25:54,330
lessening with time, and you talk about
this relative to lots of other important,
361
00:25:54,385 --> 00:25:58,931
you know, pillars in our life as well. But
one thing I did, because I moved from New
362
00:25:58,985 --> 00:26:03,477
York City to Vancouver, Canada, last year,
and we're about to move again. And there
363
00:26:03,531 --> 00:26:08,023
was a lot of like, Oh, I'm gonna do this
after. Like, I started doing like, this is
364
00:26:08,077 --> 00:26:12,514
for after the move. This is for before the
move. And I was doing a lot of that for
365
00:26:12,568 --> 00:26:17,006
like, an entire year, because we knew we
were gonna be moving. And I really had to
366
00:26:17,060 --> 00:26:21,282
examine and inquire with myself why I was
doing that, what made, what were the
367
00:26:21,336 --> 00:26:25,828
things I was, you know, I could not deal
with until after the move. And it was such
368
00:26:25,882 --> 00:26:30,103
an arbitrary, interesting thing, because
it was all up to me. It was a choice,
369
00:26:30,157 --> 00:26:34,595
right? The way I saw it, yeah, and things
still happen, but it was just my framing
370
00:26:34,649 --> 00:26:38,546
of it was just so interesting. In
particular, you talk about things with
371
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,875
time and also particularly with work as
well. So obviously, don't quit the job.
372
00:26:42,929 --> 00:26:47,096
But you know, one of the biggest things
people talk about that's a problem in
373
00:26:47,150 --> 00:26:51,426
their life would probably be work or
dissatisfaction around that. Can you share
374
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,539
a little bit about your perspective on
this practice as it relates to like,
375
00:26:55,593 --> 00:26:57,650
career and money and things like that?
376
00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:01,409
Billy Wynne: Sure, sure. So, so I think
it's, interesting, because with time, with
377
00:27:01,464 --> 00:27:05,714
work and kind of material, you know,
comfort and things, there is the reality,
378
00:27:05,768 --> 00:27:10,291
right? I mean, you know, we have 24 hours
in a day. So, so again, this is not about
379
00:27:10,345 --> 00:27:14,595
denying, right, authentic experience of
life, right? Which there are hours and
380
00:27:14,650 --> 00:27:19,281
those types of things, you know, and there
are, there's a need for, you know, shelter
381
00:27:19,335 --> 00:27:23,749
and clothing and food, and there may be,
you know, perfectly healthy appetite for
382
00:27:23,803 --> 00:27:28,108
comfort, you know, more travel to Europe
and different things that people might
383
00:27:28,162 --> 00:27:32,576
want to do. So this doesn't dismiss any of
that. What it says is that how we, you
384
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:37,207
know, feel constrained by time or by these
material pressures or by our work is vast
385
00:27:37,262 --> 00:27:41,566
majority of that is self imposed, right?
So we can decide what our relationship
386
00:27:41,621 --> 00:27:46,034
with time is. We can decide how we come
forth with our boss, right? We can decide
387
00:27:46,089 --> 00:27:50,393
how we, you know, want to experience our
work day, right? So, so the, you know,
388
00:27:50,448 --> 00:27:55,079
it's also, maybe ironically, overlaps with
the chapter about love, where I talk about
389
00:27:55,134 --> 00:27:59,438
response, freedom and responsibility,
right? Freedom and responsibility. Right,
390
00:27:59,493 --> 00:28:04,070
freedom and responsibility. We are tend to
believe that, you know, our circumstances
391
00:28:04,124 --> 00:28:08,374
define how we feel, right? We it's kind
of, it's like a co dependence with our
392
00:28:08,429 --> 00:28:12,025
circumstances. We we give up
responsibility for how we feel to the
393
00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:16,493
things around us. It's like, well, I have
a memo due tomorrow, and therefore I am
394
00:28:16,547 --> 00:28:20,688
stressed and unhappy, right? And I can't
think about other things. This is a
395
00:28:20,743 --> 00:28:25,320
painful experience, and hopefully I'll get
it done on time, right? So that's one way
396
00:28:25,374 --> 00:28:29,297
to experience it, right? Another way is
like, there's actually something
397
00:28:29,352 --> 00:28:33,711
interesting here. You know, I took this
job for a reason, some reason. Hopefully
398
00:28:33,765 --> 00:28:38,397
it wasn't just for money, you know, maybe,
maybe it was, but I had different options.
399
00:28:38,451 --> 00:28:42,592
I chose this path of career or job. You
know, I can take some pride in this.
400
00:28:42,647 --> 00:28:47,060
There's a creative activity going on here.
It might be something very mundane and
401
00:28:47,115 --> 00:28:51,637
technical, but there's, there's something
coming out of my brain and onto the paper
402
00:28:51,691 --> 00:28:56,105
here that I can have some fun with and a
creativity with. We can choose how we're
403
00:28:56,159 --> 00:29:00,464
going to approach that endeavor, even
though there are certain constraints that
404
00:29:00,518 --> 00:29:04,823
are undeniable around you know, that that
do set the context. We can choose our
405
00:29:04,877 --> 00:29:09,073
relationship with those. Those contextual
factors take up a path of peace and
406
00:29:09,127 --> 00:29:13,160
creativity and ease. You know, even in
very kind of mundane circumstances,
407
00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:16,950
Robert Kuang: Yeah, chop wood, carry
water, kind of ease, yeah, sometimes many
408
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:22,530
people yearn for that kind of simplicity.
Isn't that funny? In modern society, we've
409
00:29:22,530 --> 00:29:25,260
advanced so much and some people are like,
I just want to lie down.
410
00:29:28,260 --> 00:29:29,400
Billy Wynne: Yeah, exactly.
411
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:33,720
Robert Kuang: We have a couple minutes
left. And I love to throw two words slash
412
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,750
concept to you, just to see your
perspective, mostly because I'll share a
413
00:29:36,750 --> 00:29:42,510
little bit. You know, I think probably the
concept of belonging and being at home and
414
00:29:42,510 --> 00:29:48,090
freedom are two things that have probably
driven my spiritual search or yearning,
415
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:54,060
probably my entire life without really
even being what to name it at first. Yeah,
416
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,950
and I think a lot of the Buddhist path and
people who are interested in mindfulness
417
00:29:58,950 --> 00:30:00,090
and taking care.
418
00:30:00,090 --> 00:30:05,010
Or their actions and themselves this way,
probably think about belonging and and
419
00:30:05,010 --> 00:30:09,540
freedom and maybe have some struggle with
that. So I'm just curious how you relate
420
00:30:09,540 --> 00:30:12,900
to these two ideas within the Buddhist
path, if you will.
421
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:16,682
Billy Wynne: Sure, sure. Well, first,
Sabine Selassie wrote a book called You
422
00:30:16,740 --> 00:30:21,465
Belong. And I do, I do reference it in my
book. It's a really beautiful book, and
423
00:30:21,523 --> 00:30:26,247
it's really centered around this core idea
of belonging. My theme, and I believe,
424
00:30:26,305 --> 00:30:31,088
consistent with hers, if I may say so you
know, is that if we can find that place,
425
00:30:31,146 --> 00:30:35,812
or we can begin to cultivate that place
where we are whole and complete from the
426
00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:40,186
very beginning, we're not actually
lacking. We are not needing more things
427
00:30:40,244 --> 00:30:45,143
externally to make us, you know, whole and
complete, then we belong. Right? Wherever
428
00:30:45,202 --> 00:30:49,809
we go, we are at home because we are
already at center, at peace within our own
429
00:30:49,867 --> 00:30:54,533
selves, right, with a deep understanding
of kind of where we came from and where
430
00:30:54,591 --> 00:30:59,374
we're going. That is another way of being
in community. It's a way of being in our
431
00:30:59,432 --> 00:31:04,331
space. It's a way of inhabiting our space
that says that, you know, I have things to
432
00:31:04,390 --> 00:31:09,114
do, I have relationships I need to tend
to, but my happiness is not contingent on
433
00:31:09,172 --> 00:31:13,838
the outcome of those things, right? My
happiness starts from from the inside and
434
00:31:13,896 --> 00:31:18,445
moves outward like this, the belonging,
and then the other piece you mentioned
435
00:31:18,503 --> 00:31:23,169
was, oh, freedom, freedom. Thank you.
Yeah. So, yeah. So it's really kind of two
436
00:31:23,228 --> 00:31:27,777
sides to the same coin, right? Because,
you know, in that space, and I this is
437
00:31:27,835 --> 00:31:32,267
part of the my version of the metta
meditation that I offer in the book, and
438
00:31:32,326 --> 00:31:37,283
it's all really how I think about the crux
of my my practice these days is, you know,
439
00:31:37,341 --> 00:31:42,066
feeling free to come forth and greet the
next moment with an open heart, right? I
440
00:31:42,124 --> 00:31:46,848
mean that that is, that is at the heart of
our day to day activities, is we? Yes,
441
00:31:46,906 --> 00:31:51,864
there are contacts, yes, you know, we kind
of, we have our authentic life experience,
442
00:31:51,922 --> 00:31:56,588
and sort of those around us. And yes, our
feet are on the ground. And, you know,
443
00:31:56,646 --> 00:32:01,312
there are the materiality of our authentic
life experience. And at the same time
444
00:32:01,370 --> 00:32:06,036
within that, we are free, you know, we
are, we are able to greet the next moment
445
00:32:06,094 --> 00:32:10,760
with an open heart, if we choose to meet
it that way, right, whatever it may be.
446
00:32:10,818 --> 00:32:15,776
And it can be very sad and painful, it can
be very frustrating and difficult, or, you
447
00:32:15,834 --> 00:32:20,441
know, it can be very joyful, and, you
know, blissful and and you know, and more
448
00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:25,224
positive side of life. And we are we, you
know, are free to choose how we advance
449
00:32:25,282 --> 00:32:30,065
into that next moment in whatever form it
presents itself to us. And that's really
450
00:32:30,123 --> 00:32:35,022
gets to the true meaning of of happiness.
If we can recognize and embody and embrace
451
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,930
that freedom that we have, then it's all
gravy. You know, it's all
452
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,880
even this, even in sad moments and like, I
mean, like, really sad loss of a loved
453
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,870
one, you know? I mean the pain and the
sadness is very real. And at the same
454
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:54,300
time, there can be this beauty, right?
There's care, there's love, there is there
455
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:59,100
is a depth there that is a very, very
magical and miraculous part of being a
456
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:03,870
human being, right? And so even as we're
crying and desperate, you know that's
457
00:33:03,870 --> 00:33:08,340
there too. And you know we are free to
access that does not go away, whatever our
458
00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:12,240
circumstances may be. We are free to
access that if we cultivate our openness
459
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:12,510
to it.
460
00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:14,910
Robert Kuang: Yeah, and thank you for
mentioning the power of choice. I always
461
00:33:14,910 --> 00:33:19,080
like to remind people a lot of this is
exploring the power of our choices,
462
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:22,980
because sometimes people think like you're
just a follower, right of all whatever?
463
00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:27,930
Yeah, and once again, it's just a reminder
of this is looking at what we choose in
464
00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:32,520
any given moment. So I always appreciate a
good reminder of that, Billy, for anyone
465
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,060
who wants to find you or connect with you.
Where can they do that?
466
00:33:36,090 --> 00:33:40,380
Billy Wynne: Yes, they can go to my
website, Billywynne.com and they can also
467
00:33:40,380 --> 00:33:46,710
order my book from whatever platform
they'd like that way. And so I'm also on
468
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:48,840
social, and you can find all that through
my website.
469
00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:53,370
Robert Kuang: Perfect, yeah, and I'll link
it as well. So yeah, thank you for your
470
00:33:53,370 --> 00:33:57,210
time today, and thank you for having me
just being part of the ride with the
471
00:33:57,210 --> 00:33:58,140
technical hiccups.
472
00:33:58,170 --> 00:34:00,810
Billy Wynne: Oh no, thank you for your
patience as well. I'm glad we made it
473
00:34:00,810 --> 00:34:02,430
work. Great to be with you.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,180
Robert Kuang: Bill,
2
00:00:05,070 --> 00:00:12,090
Welcome to Side by Side, a podcast where I
Robert Kuang take you inside conversations
3
00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:17,970
with artists, creatives, healers and
warriors taking the charge in their
4
00:00:17,970 --> 00:00:19,170
transformational story.
5
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:26,010
Today's guest is Billy Winn, the author of
the empty path finding fulfillment through
6
00:00:26,010 --> 00:00:27,510
the radical art of lessening.
7
00:00:28,590 --> 00:00:33,360
As a student of Buddhism and mindfulness
for 30 years, he received his meditation
8
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,550
teaching certification under Jack
Kornfield and Tara Brach, and his lay Zen
9
00:00:38,550 --> 00:00:43,140
Buddhist ordination from the Zen Center of
Denver, where he teaches classes and
10
00:00:43,140 --> 00:00:48,360
serves on the board. In this conversation,
we unpack the practice of lessening in a
11
00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:53,340
world built on the pursuit of having more
and its connection to Buddhist concepts
12
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,790
such as detachment, freedom and suffering.
13
00:00:58,410 --> 00:01:05,880
You can find more side by side episodes at
sidebyside podcast.podbean.com, and, if
14
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,880
you'd like to connect with me about my
services, please visit
15
00:01:10,950 --> 00:01:12,120
www.robertkuanghome.com.
16
00:01:17,460 --> 00:01:21,540
All right, so it's nice to meet you,
Billy. I'm speaking to another Colorado.
17
00:01:21,540 --> 00:01:25,800
And I grew up in Longmont when I came to
America, and all of my friends went to
18
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,010
Boulder. Did you actually grow up in
Colorado yourself?
19
00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,210
Billy Wynne: No, I grew up in Virginia,
and I moved out here in 2009 my wife and
20
00:01:33,210 --> 00:01:33,750
my daughter.
21
00:01:33,810 --> 00:01:36,990
Robert Kuang: Okay, gotcha how? How's
Colorado treating you?
22
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,620
Billy Wynne: Oh, amazing. Amazing. Yeah,
no, we've got no plans to leave. We're
23
00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:42,720
actually moving to Carbondale in June.
24
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:43,470
Robert Kuang: Oh, nice.
25
00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:47,430
Billy Wynne: It's been. We've loved it,
the lifestyle, the weather, yeah, yeah.
26
00:01:47,460 --> 00:01:50,880
Robert Kuang: You know, growing up 20
minutes outside of Boulder, I didn't know
27
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,300
this because it was just, I was just going
to school, but there was quite the
28
00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:58,890
meditative spiritual, you know, some would
say, like a hippie community there that I
29
00:01:58,890 --> 00:02:02,880
just kind of grew up around, but didn't
really recognize at the time. So it's
30
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,050
really funny to be diving in with you. And
congratulations on your book. By the way,
31
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:12,240
I'm curious what the writing process was
like for you. What made you decide to take
32
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,800
on this book that I think to some people
may be somewhat daunting, and how did this
33
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:17,280
begin?
34
00:02:17,310 --> 00:02:21,480
Billy Wynne: Sure, well, it really
happened after I closed Awake, which was
35
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,710
the alcohol-free bar that my wife and I
had started in Denver. I was decompressing
36
00:02:25,740 --> 00:02:29,640
in the fall of 2022 I write about this in
my book. Kind of reached my wits end in
37
00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:34,110
terms of stress, and I had layered opening
that bar on top of my the rest of my
38
00:02:34,110 --> 00:02:38,760
professional life. So it was very, very
busy time. It was in that fall that I
39
00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,690
realized that I had really bought into
this idea of mooring as the path to
40
00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,190
happiness and fulfillment. And actually
it's really the opposite in my, you know,
41
00:02:47,190 --> 00:02:51,030
experience of lessening and distilling our
experience of life to really be grateful
42
00:02:51,030 --> 00:02:55,410
for what we have. And so that was kind of
the spark of inspiration and but kind of
43
00:02:55,410 --> 00:02:59,790
more practically speaking, my wife was had
an idea of working on a book at the time,
44
00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:04,650
and she had a book coach, Ruby Warrington,
who's an excellent author and book coach
45
00:03:04,650 --> 00:03:08,940
and writes a lot in the alcohol free space
and other other areas. So I said, Well,
46
00:03:08,940 --> 00:03:12,270
let me talk to Ruby. And you know, because
I wanted to write about this, this kind of
47
00:03:12,300 --> 00:03:19,260
realization I had around mooring versus
lessening. And Ruby had a book coming out
48
00:03:19,260 --> 00:03:23,610
that spring. And so she introduced me to
Bess Matassa, who became my book coach.
49
00:03:23,670 --> 00:03:29,250
And Bess really helped me turn this kind
of hodgepodge of relatively vague ideas
50
00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:36,480
into a more concrete book concept, and she
helped me write the book proposal, which
51
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,730
your listeners may or may not know is a
key step in having a non fiction book at
52
00:03:41,730 --> 00:03:46,290
least published, it's really a different
path for memoirs and fiction, but for non
53
00:03:46,290 --> 00:03:50,790
fiction, a book proposal is really the
tried and true way to seek publication.
54
00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:55,710
And so in that I wrote the introduction,
and I wrote the chapter four about work,
55
00:03:55,740 --> 00:04:00,180
which is now in the book. And really
through that process, with her number one,
56
00:04:00,180 --> 00:04:03,360
I figured out what the book was about.
It's about emptiness. Is about my
57
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,800
experience of, you know, the art of
lessening, and about my own my own life,
58
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,520
really, in many ways, she taught me a lot
about how to write in terms of, you know,
59
00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,000
for a broader audience, to try to take
these, you know, especially with regard to
60
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,280
the Buddhist ideas, kind of esoteric and
maybe mysterious, inaccessible concepts,
61
00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:24,000
into something that hopefully translates,
you know, it's practical and meaningful
62
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,630
for anyone, whether they're Buddhist or
not, or have any, you know, background in
63
00:04:27,630 --> 00:04:31,440
that field or not. And so that took
several months. And then with that book
64
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:37,530
proposal, I shopped for an agent. I sent
it out to about 20 in 19 said no, and one
65
00:04:37,530 --> 00:04:42,990
said yes, Leslie Meredith, who is now my
agent at Dystel, Goderich & Bourret, and
66
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,130
Leslie spent another couple months with me
refining the proposal yet again for the
67
00:04:47,130 --> 00:04:51,810
publisher audience, and she said to Delta,
20 or so publishers, and again, 19 said
68
00:04:51,810 --> 00:04:55,740
no, and one said yes, and that was a new
world library. Eckhart Tolle is their kind
69
00:04:55,740 --> 00:04:59,160
of marquee name. They have many other
great authors that they publish. Andyeah,
70
00:05:00,090 --> 00:05:07,260
and, and then that was probably, let's see
the end of 2023, that I signed that deal.
71
00:05:07,260 --> 00:05:10,650
And then Jason Gardner at New World
library was like, Okay, write the rest of
72
00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:14,010
the book. I was like, You sure you don't
want to kind of see bits and pieces as I
73
00:05:14,010 --> 00:05:18,120
go? And he's like, no, just, just make a
track with the introduction and chapter
74
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,040
four that you gave us. Okay? And I was
like, okay, you know, you say so. So I
75
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:29,550
wrote the remaining nine chapters in the
winter, spring of 24 and sent that
76
00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:33,810
manuscript to him, you know. And I think,
I guess, in April, you know, from there
77
00:05:33,810 --> 00:05:40,710
on, it really was more technical. I mean,
he was, they were very easy and supportive
78
00:05:40,710 --> 00:05:45,060
to work with. Kind of trusted my
creativity at that point, which I really
79
00:05:45,090 --> 00:05:49,770
appreciate. And so it was, you know, but
still a very, you know, relatively arduous
80
00:05:49,770 --> 00:05:54,630
process of copy editing, just revising and
rising, rising revising and then, and that
81
00:05:54,630 --> 00:05:59,280
was really complete in the fall of 24 and
it went into production in late fall 24
82
00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:02,190
and so just working on kind of launch,
launch activities, and the book came out
83
00:06:02,190 --> 00:06:06,390
last Tuesday. So it's really been goodness
exciting to finally. It's really over two
84
00:06:06,390 --> 00:06:07,560
and a half years later.
85
00:06:07,590 --> 00:06:10,050
Robert Kuang: Yeah, you can finally
exhale.
86
00:06:12,540 --> 00:06:19,085
Billy Wynne: Yeah. I mean, I remember
somebody telling me early on when I had
87
00:06:19,188 --> 00:06:27,370
the, you know, I think I had a first draft
of a proposal at that point, and he's
88
00:06:27,472 --> 00:06:35,552
like, you know, it's going to take about
two years. I was like, No way. How? No
89
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,279
I think people, when they think of
creative projects, they don't realize
90
00:06:32,328 --> 00:06:36,238
sometimes a labor of love, and sometimes
people are like, Well, why would you do
91
00:06:35,654 --> 00:06:44,041
way. How could it possibly take two years?
And it was definitely two years or more
92
00:06:36,287 --> 00:06:40,148
this? And I was like, You need to ask
every single author, because they'll tell
93
00:06:40,197 --> 00:06:43,912
you something wildly different, and
probably still will be confusing because
94
00:06:43,961 --> 00:06:45,770
of the labor of love that's involved.
95
00:06:44,143 --> 00:06:45,780
from that point.
96
00:06:46,140 --> 00:06:48,960
Robert Kuang: Was there any part of the
process that was, like, the most
97
00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:50,580
surprising to you?
98
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:58,000
Unknown: I guess, you know, the process of
refining the proposal was, was very
99
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,680
involved and, like, like, you know, just
persistent line by line editing. And
100
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,900
that's really credit to Bess and Leslie,
my book coach and agent. And yet the
101
00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:10,800
process with the publisher was not like
that at all. Like I said, it was much more
102
00:07:10,860 --> 00:07:16,860
open. And really they most, 90 plus
percent of their edits were more technical
103
00:07:16,860 --> 00:07:22,640
in nature, not substantive. So I expected
that to kind of be the beginning, and then
104
00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,900
it would get, you know, even more kind of
in depth, and rewriting the book, really,
105
00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:31,040
with the publisher. And at least for me,
in this book, that did not turn out to be
106
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,900
the case. I also, I'll say this also
speaks to your first question. I
107
00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:41,140
personally really enjoyed the process of
writing itself. I'm fortunate that I was
108
00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:45,880
at a spot in my career where I had some
free time and flexibility during the week
109
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,480
to write. It wasn't like nights and
weekends. I could write during the day,
110
00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:53,980
and particularly waking up in the morning.
You know, my son goes off to school, I get
111
00:07:53,980 --> 00:07:58,180
a cup of coffee and to have a couple hours
at least. And it did take me, I had to
112
00:07:58,180 --> 00:08:03,120
have at least three hours to feel like I
could really get immersed and get some
113
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,340
momentum going and produce, you know, a
decent body of work for the day. That part
114
00:08:08,340 --> 00:08:12,180
I really, really enjoyed, felt creative,
you know, felt interesting. Like it was
115
00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:15,000
like, Okay, I'm gonna find out what my
words put out today. You know, it's like,
116
00:08:15,180 --> 00:08:18,360
you don't know until you just start
tapping away at the keyboard, what, what's
117
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,340
gonna appear. Yeah. And so I was like,
Well, what am I gonna say about, you know,
118
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,140
play and equanimity today,
119
00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:53,871
Billy Wynne: until I write it. So that was
actually fun. I it was not like, Oh God, I
120
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,018
Robert Kuang: That's so wonderful to hear,
because people often get there's a
121
00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:46,663
particular image that people have of like
the solitude, suffering writer, so to
122
00:08:46,721 --> 00:08:51,367
speak. So it's really nice to hear that
number one is a collaborative process at
123
00:08:51,425 --> 00:08:56,187
the end of the day. But also number two,
it can definitely be born out of a little
124
00:08:54,260 --> 00:09:24,962
gotta write 1000 pages today. Or, you
know, it wasn't, I didn't look at it that
125
00:08:56,245 --> 00:09:00,484
bit of joy. And it makes sense,
considering your book is called The Empty
126
00:09:00,542 --> 00:09:05,478
Path you're exploring, kind of a different
way of looking at these words that I think
127
00:09:05,536 --> 00:09:10,355
the than what people are generally used to
when you think of emptiness and also the
128
00:09:10,413 --> 00:09:14,943
practice of lessening, which are two
topics that will basically be focusing on
129
00:09:15,001 --> 00:09:19,414
this conversation. People might be
thinking of a lack or to do without or to
130
00:09:19,472 --> 00:09:23,827
be without, but this book is really
speaking on these two terms, really, or
131
00:09:23,885 --> 00:09:28,821
concepts very differently. So maybe we can
just start there. It's very broad. But how
132
00:09:25,351 --> 00:09:56,053
way, and it didn't feel that way at the
time. It was actually that was the most
133
00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:32,480
do you approach these ideas and why are
they important to you?
134
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,306
Yeah, well, thank you. So right gets right
to the heart of the book, and I think that
135
00:09:37,362 --> 00:09:41,677
the standard kind of definition and
understanding of emptiness is the reason
136
00:09:41,734 --> 00:09:46,390
that it is usually skipped over entirely
or given, you know, a very light brush in
137
00:09:46,447 --> 00:09:50,989
books about Buddhism. You know, because
lots of lots of books about Buddhism are
138
00:09:51,046 --> 00:09:55,644
out there, and many of them talk about
compassion and love and joy and peace. And
139
00:09:55,701 --> 00:09:59,960
you know, all of those are wonderful
fruits of Buddhist thought and prayer.
140
00:09:56,442 --> 00:09:59,940
fun part.
141
00:09:59,940 --> 00:10:07,178
Practice, also, of course, thought and
practice and many other spiritual
142
00:10:07,278 --> 00:10:15,522
traditions. And yet emptiness, for me, is
kind of at the core, like, you know, the
143
00:10:15,622 --> 00:10:23,062
understanding of emptiness, the
realization of emptiness, is really at the
144
00:10:23,162 --> 00:10:31,305
core of the of the tradition that that
unlocks all of these, you know, the bounty
145
00:10:31,406 --> 00:10:39,046
of these gifts of life that we can then
experience. But it's kind of, it's a
146
00:10:39,147 --> 00:10:46,888
little bit tricky, especially at first
glance, to understand why, rather than
147
00:10:46,988 --> 00:10:55,332
nihilism or meaninglessness, or, you know,
sort of despair, emptiness is really the
148
00:10:55,433 --> 00:11:03,676
nature of things, that is why nothing is
separate, right? It's, it's, you know, we
149
00:11:03,777 --> 00:11:11,920
can we have this, I think, kind of primal
feeling that, that there's some kind of
150
00:11:12,020 --> 00:11:19,862
unity or oneness to our existence, right?
That we get different glimpses of in
151
00:11:19,962 --> 00:11:28,407
different ways, in different you know, in
our life. And I the way that Buddhism sort
152
00:11:28,508 --> 00:11:36,651
of explains why that is the case for me,
is the most direct and clear. And at the
153
00:11:36,751 --> 00:11:44,794
heart of it is emptiness. And there's a
couple of different aspects of emptiness
154
00:11:44,894 --> 00:11:53,439
which help us understand what it is that I
go into detail in the book. One of them is
155
00:11:53,540 --> 00:12:01,783
impermanence. So all things you know, kind
of come into being and go out of being,
156
00:12:01,884 --> 00:12:10,228
and also in every moment, all things are
changing and becoming something different,
157
00:12:10,329 --> 00:12:18,673
even, you know, moment to moment, right?
It's not the same river. It's not the same
158
00:12:18,773 --> 00:12:26,715
person stepping in the river. No person
can step into the same river, you know,
159
00:12:26,816 --> 00:12:34,758
twice. So it's that, that basic concept,
and then the other is the idea of what
160
00:12:34,858 --> 00:12:42,800
Buddha called no self, which basically
just means that if you examine something
161
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,092
Robert Kuang: Yeah, you know, this is a
very early quote, I believe. And I just
162
00:12:42,901 --> 00:12:51,044
with chair or this cup or ourselves, and
you look at all the different aspects of
163
00:12:45,151 --> 00:12:49,537
wanted to read this out loud from your
book. "After exhausting every other
164
00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:54,278
strategy, from excessively indulgent
hedonism to total ascetic abandonment, the
165
00:12:51,144 --> 00:12:58,885
it as it's presented here and now, but
also the things that contributed to it
166
00:12:54,337 --> 00:12:59,197
Buddha saw the emptiness of all things, of
every manner in which we experience our
167
00:12:58,986 --> 00:13:07,028
coming into being, and all the different
ways of thinking about it and so forth,
168
00:12:59,256 --> 00:13:03,938
lives, as the Heart Sutra says it was this
profound insight that enabled him to
169
00:13:03,997 --> 00:13:07,850
sunder the bonds, abandon the attachments
that create suffering."
170
00:13:07,129 --> 00:13:15,171
not one of those things makes the thing
what it is. Is it the plastic, or is the
171
00:13:07,850 --> 00:13:09,557
And so initially, even as someone who's
familiar, at least with the concepts
172
00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:11,332
without being a practicing Buddhist,
emptiness and detachment and all of that,
173
00:13:11,355 --> 00:13:13,242
there's like a I don't want that automatic
reaction sometimes. And yet the word that
174
00:13:13,264 --> 00:13:15,107
I think people really understand is that,
oh, our attachm ents are is what creates
175
00:13:15,129 --> 00:13:16,904
suffering. And I do think as much as those
words are somewhat like people don't
176
00:13:15,272 --> 00:13:23,314
water, or is it, you know, what makes the
cup a cup? And if you really, and I do
177
00:13:16,927 --> 00:13:18,702
understand them, people do understand
suffering. And there's always that desire
178
00:13:18,724 --> 00:13:20,612
to reduce and lessen suffering, and people
have been trying to figure that out for a
179
00:13:20,634 --> 00:13:22,454
long time. So I just wanted to connect
that as well, that a lot of this has to do
180
00:13:22,476 --> 00:13:23,870
with the fact that we walk into suffering
over and over again.
181
00:13:23,415 --> 00:13:31,658
this a couple times throughout the book,
because it's really a key thing to try to
182
00:13:23,870 --> 00:13:28,569
Billy Wynne: Yeah, yeah. And it's really
this, this idea that that I'm over here
183
00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:34,250
and that thing that, you know, either I
desire or I want to avoid is over there,
184
00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:39,600
understand there's not one thing, the fact
that there's this kind of inherent,
185
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:39,861
you know, and I'm over here and that
person is over there, and we are separate.
186
00:13:39,701 --> 00:13:48,145
abiding identity to things is also a lens
for viewing its emptiness. And when things
187
00:13:39,932 --> 00:13:45,473
Is, is why suffering arises, right? It's
why we feel scarcity, it's why we feel
188
00:13:45,543 --> 00:13:51,154
fear, it's why we feel craving. The reason
that the recognition and inquiry into
189
00:13:48,246 --> 00:13:56,188
are empty, they don't have boundaries,
they are not separate. So that's kind of
190
00:13:51,224 --> 00:13:56,906
emptiness is helpful is because it helps
us soften those attachments. We start to
191
00:13:56,289 --> 00:14:04,230
the one way to understand how really, we
are not separate from all those things
192
00:13:56,976 --> 00:14:02,867
see things differently, and we become less
attached to them, whether it's be craving
193
00:14:02,938 --> 00:14:08,829
or aversion, and that's really what helps
us ease the suffering in our own lives and
194
00:14:04,331 --> 00:14:12,675
around us, because these boundaries that
we imagine to be there are not really, not
195
00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:14,721
more, you know, kind of specifically, what
it needs is that sad things are going to
196
00:14:12,776 --> 00:14:21,019
really, the final word you know, on how
these things are really tapping into that.
197
00:14:14,791 --> 00:14:20,262
keep happening, frustrating things are
going to, you know, just all of that is
198
00:14:20,332 --> 00:14:25,312
going to keep life is going to keep
happening. But we can be with those
199
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:28,861
And it takes a book to really try to
understand. It takes examples from life.
200
00:14:25,382 --> 00:14:31,064
experiences in a different way. So the
rather just being kind of tossed around by
201
00:14:28,961 --> 00:14:37,205
It takes meditation practices to really
sink into this idea of emptiness. But when
202
00:14:31,134 --> 00:14:37,096
the waves of our, you know, the experience
of our life, we know we can have a kind of
203
00:14:37,166 --> 00:14:42,707
this abiding piece, right, that that the
waves of life cannot really, you know,
204
00:14:37,305 --> 00:14:45,850
we do, we really can change our experience
of life. And it is very practical here and
205
00:14:42,777 --> 00:14:48,599
push aside, and the way, you know, a key
way, at least, to tap into that is through
206
00:14:45,951 --> 00:14:53,792
now, and it does start to open up these
benefits of our own life, and also the
207
00:14:48,669 --> 00:14:54,280
this experience of emptiness, and also
meditation practices and other other sort
208
00:14:53,893 --> 00:14:58,920
Buddhist tradition of joy and peace and happiness.
209
00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:58,910
of features of this path of lessening that
I outline in the book.
210
00:14:59,010 --> 00:15:02,700
Robert Kuang: Yeah, and I want to go into
the kind of the structure of each chapter.
211
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,200
It's very deliberate, and they're kind of
different, different components, right?
212
00:15:07,230 --> 00:15:11,670
And it's very deliberately structured from
the more autobiographical portions, which
213
00:15:11,670 --> 00:15:16,200
I found deeply moving. And also, I just
appreciate anyone who's willing to share
214
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:21,030
with that level of transparency to guided
meditations, to the discussion of
215
00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:25,620
concepts. Can you talk about how you
formulated these chapters that way?
216
00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:30,030
Billy Wynne: Yes. So yeah, thank you for
touching on that. There's really three
217
00:15:30,030 --> 00:15:35,880
kind of legs to the stool of the book in
each chapter, and each one starts with an
218
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:40,170
autobiographical anecdote from my life.
And the reason for that is a couple fold
219
00:15:40,170 --> 00:15:45,840
number one, I did want to. I felt like
just launching into Buddhist ideas and
220
00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:50,160
meditation practices would be incomplete
without demonstrating how they have
221
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,540
manifested in my own life and really
anchoring them there. And I didn't want to
222
00:15:54,750 --> 00:15:58,920
also, you know, kind of pretend. I call it
the I once was lost and now and found, you
223
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,420
know, narrative arc where it's like, okay,
I was a mess before and now, and a lot of
224
00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:07,470
books follow the start, right? And now I'm
like, you know, cured, and everything's
225
00:16:07,470 --> 00:16:12,030
wonderful, but everybody knows that's not
how life actually is. I've never met
226
00:16:12,030 --> 00:16:17,430
anyone who life is like that for so the
truth is that that we had these
227
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:21,150
experiences, and hopefully we learned
something from them, right? And we we find
228
00:16:21,150 --> 00:16:25,320
new practices, we discover new wisdom, and
we start to integrate these into our life
229
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,950
and and yes, we can change. I mean, that's
the hopeful part of this book, and what I
230
00:16:28,950 --> 00:16:32,010
hope people get from it is like the
underlying message is that, like, You are
231
00:16:32,010 --> 00:16:35,970
worthy of peace and joy in your life, and
you're you know, you can experience it
232
00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:41,370
more frequently, and there are ways that
you can do that. But at the same time, the
233
00:16:41,370 --> 00:16:46,320
wheel of life continues to turn. And it's
not, it's not that pain and discomfort go
234
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,150
away, but that, you know, you become more
comfortable with them, and you kind of can
235
00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:55,440
learn how to navigate them. So anyway, so
that that's key reason why
236
00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:59,130
autobiographical component is there, and
then, really, yeah, there's, there's a
237
00:16:59,130 --> 00:17:03,990
portion of each chapter. There's a
different facet of the jewel of emptiness.
238
00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:08,010
So it's, there's non self, there's
impermanence, there's kind of the
239
00:17:08,010 --> 00:17:11,490
interdependence of things, there's
equanimity, I talk about forgiveness.
240
00:17:11,490 --> 00:17:16,230
There's just different teachings that can
help us get closer and more personally
241
00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:21,930
intimate with this core idea of emptiness.
And then, and then, yes, each chapter ends
242
00:17:21,930 --> 00:17:27,090
with a guided meditation. And folks can
also listen to those on my website, Billy
243
00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:30,870
win.com because it's a little funky to
read a meditation while you're trying to
244
00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:37,050
meditate. So and there it is really to
because it's one thing to understand. You
245
00:17:37,050 --> 00:17:40,980
know, with our discursive, intellectual
mind, some of these ideas and emptiness
246
00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:45,600
is, you know, the Paramount example of
this. It's like it can make sense to us,
247
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,710
sort of on paper and words, but unless we
really feel it in our bones and our
248
00:17:49,710 --> 00:17:54,180
marrow, it's probably not going to change
our life. And that's where meditation can
249
00:17:54,180 --> 00:17:58,920
be important. It's like you really want to
settle into this and feel, you know, the
250
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:03,750
truth of this for yourself you know, first
person perspective, that's when it's
251
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:06,510
really going to start to have a
transformative effect. And so that's why
252
00:18:06,510 --> 00:18:07,680
the meditations are there.
253
00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:10,170
Robert Kuang: Thank you for sharing that.
Because, you know, I think people think
254
00:18:10,170 --> 00:18:15,240
of, well, these practices are there when I
have the time and space and quiet, you
255
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,900
know, finally the kids are out of the
house, and then maybe I can look at this
256
00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:21,720
and try to sit and be with my thoughts and
feelings, right?
257
00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:26,610
Such is life, it may not always be the
case, so I'm curious. You know, readers
258
00:18:26,610 --> 00:18:30,510
should really dive into your book, because
you do share quite a bit about your life.
259
00:18:30,510 --> 00:18:34,080
But can you give an example of when it may
have been very challenging to practice
260
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,130
emptiness and detachment and lessening,
and what happened after?
261
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,170
Billy Wynne: Gosh, well, how about this
morning.
262
00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:46,080
I get the car. So I dropped my son off at
school, and I don't want to over share
263
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,730
here, but let's just say he, you know,
wants to have a party at our house this
264
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:56,220
spring, and so I was working on that
question, and we want to try to my wife,
265
00:18:56,220 --> 00:19:00,690
and I want to try to make that work, but
there are certain parameters that we have
266
00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:05,160
to put around that. He's in eighth grade.
I've already said that, so, you know, put
267
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,030
around that concept. And, you know, he
didn't like all the things that I was
268
00:19:09,030 --> 00:19:13,680
saying. And so it was very challenging
because, you know, from the My kind of ego
269
00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:17,490
self, which was definitely arising as it
does, it's like, Hey, I'm trying to be
270
00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:20,460
nice here, you know, we're trying to make
this work for you. And you're, you know,
271
00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:24,810
kind of now negotiating the details, you
know, that kind of thing. So, like, what
272
00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:29,340
the heck is, you know, a natural response,
and very often is the response that we
273
00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:35,580
give in difficult circumstances. But also
I was remembering, and I've had done this
274
00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:39,600
1000s of times, and I do talk about a
couple of incidents with my my son, I also
275
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,420
have a daughter, you know, and then with
my wife, you know, these people who are
276
00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:45,720
close to us, it's often people we love the
most. This could be the most difficult,
277
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,950
right? We're the most attached. And I am
keeping in mind in this conversation this
278
00:19:49,950 --> 00:19:52,950
morning, fortunately, it doesn't always
happen, you know, I really, really love
279
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:58,770
this person, and I see him in a broader
context than just this conversation. First
280
00:19:58,770 --> 00:19:59,880
of all, you know, I see.
281
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:17,915
The depth of his life experience and all
of that, but also that I do have this, as
282
00:20:18,133 --> 00:20:36,267
I've practiced more and more and more this
kind of abiding sense of the underlying,
283
00:20:36,485 --> 00:20:53,090
you know, emptiness and therefore unity of
things, it does create a peaceful
284
00:20:53,308 --> 00:21:11,442
undertone to our lives, right? More often,
there are times where it goes away, goes
285
00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:28,483
out the window. But more and more it
starts to just be there. It starts to it
286
00:21:16,370 --> 00:21:19,728
Robert Kuang: I think, you know, with
family, it's often probably the best
287
00:21:19,783 --> 00:21:24,317
learning practice ground, if you will,
first for some of these things, and you do
288
00:21:24,373 --> 00:21:28,794
touch on towards the kind of the empty
path, there's the practice of lessening,
289
00:21:28,701 --> 00:21:46,180
starts to be, some call it the centered
like, you know, the centered place where
290
00:21:28,850 --> 00:21:33,383
and maybe we can parse that out a little
bit more for people, because from when I
291
00:21:33,439 --> 00:21:37,861
am interpreting listening, it's like a
maybe a little bit of a reframe meaning.
292
00:21:37,917 --> 00:21:42,562
Kind of people when see it, they may see
it in a very like, literal way, but you're
293
00:21:42,618 --> 00:21:46,760
talking about it in a very specific way.
Can you unpack that a little bit?
294
00:21:46,398 --> 00:22:03,876
it's like, even though his response is not
what I prefer, right? I don't have to
295
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,734
Billy Wynne: Yeah. Thank you. So yes. Also
a word that I think on its face, you know,
296
00:21:50,789 --> 00:21:55,260
is often interpreted differently. So this
is not about, you know, giving quitting
297
00:21:55,316 --> 00:21:59,290
your job, or, you know, saying that
material comforts are wrong, or that
298
00:21:59,345 --> 00:22:03,816
reading another book is wrong, or that you
know, going on a meditation retreat is
299
00:22:03,872 --> 00:22:08,177
wrong. The crux of lessening is that the
belief that those things are what are
300
00:22:04,095 --> 00:22:22,447
trigger off into raising my voice and, you
know, shaming him, and, you know, kind of
301
00:22:08,232 --> 00:22:12,704
going to make you happy, right, are going
to fulfill you is, actually, is, is not
302
00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:17,009
the path to the solution. It's the path to
the harm, right? It's the cause of
303
00:22:17,064 --> 00:22:21,646
suffering. Is the idea that I'm not whole
and complete, I am lacking, and therefore
304
00:22:21,701 --> 00:22:26,172
I need these externally, you know, these
external things to to fill this hole and
305
00:22:22,665 --> 00:22:41,236
that direction. I can still I can I can be
clear. I don't have to agree to everything
306
00:22:26,228 --> 00:22:30,312
to make me happy and feel like I'm
fulfilled and complete. Because when we
307
00:22:30,368 --> 00:22:34,508
approach things with that attitude, it
never works, right? Because we never
308
00:22:34,563 --> 00:22:39,144
actually believed in our own worthiness.
We just, we just thought we, you know, the
309
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,560
next thing was going to be the thing that
finally, you know, solves our kind of
310
00:22:41,455 --> 00:22:58,277
that he's saying, but I can do it in a
gentler, more measured tone, which is,
311
00:22:43,616 --> 00:22:47,756
fundamental problem. So the path of
lessening is not about saying you can't
312
00:22:47,811 --> 00:22:52,116
have a family and a job and a busy life
and ambition and like all these things
313
00:22:52,172 --> 00:22:56,588
which I have, and most people you know
have, but it is saying that we can change
314
00:22:56,643 --> 00:23:01,004
our experience of those things to really
distill down our, you know, the way we
315
00:22:58,496 --> 00:23:15,537
which is going to be more effective? I
submit. I'm not an expert in parenting,
316
00:23:01,059 --> 00:23:05,420
approach these different parts of our
life. And instead of thinking, okay, more
317
00:23:05,475 --> 00:23:10,001
and more, I need more strategies. I need
more time. I need more, you know, effort.
318
00:23:10,056 --> 00:23:14,528
I need, you know that that's going to be
that's going to make me a better parent.
319
00:23:14,583 --> 00:23:18,888
For example, you know, I need to say more
things to my son. I need to add more
320
00:23:15,756 --> 00:23:32,578
but typically, I think in the long run, at
least, it's that's actually a more
321
00:23:18,944 --> 00:23:23,580
instruction to his you know, really it's,
it's lessening my belief and my attachment
322
00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:27,665
and my my application of those various
facets, which, you know, are often
323
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,971
unnecessary, and when things are more
distilled and really simplified, then I
324
00:23:32,026 --> 00:23:36,497
parent, you know, and then it's often more
at ease. It's clearer. I'm less easily
325
00:23:32,797 --> 00:23:51,149
effective strategy, and it feels better at
the time, and it yields better results in
326
00:23:36,552 --> 00:23:41,024
frustrated in the process you know, or you
apply it to your job, or whatever your
327
00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:45,329
goals or you know, your kind of your
interests are in your life, whatever you
328
00:23:45,384 --> 00:23:49,635
apply it to, it's not just more pleasant
to do it. It tends to yield a better
329
00:23:49,690 --> 00:23:54,051
outcome when we can approach it that way
of lessening which, and another way of
330
00:23:51,367 --> 00:24:08,846
the future. So that's a small case, and
you know, it wasn't flawless performance
331
00:23:54,106 --> 00:23:58,688
thinking about it, is to be less attached
to the outcome of the activity, right? So
332
00:23:58,743 --> 00:24:03,159
one thing I talk about in the compassion
chapter, like, in terms of, like, let's
333
00:24:03,214 --> 00:24:07,464
say you have a cause, like a social
justice, you know, outcome, or, you know,
334
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,936
a political belief, or something that that
you have, we all have them. It's like
335
00:24:09,064 --> 00:24:25,887
yet, right? But anybody had been there
other than me and him, you would know,
336
00:24:11,991 --> 00:24:16,407
there's one way to go about it, which
says, I have to get this at all costs. The
337
00:24:16,462 --> 00:24:21,099
people who are against me are dumb, right?
I have to defeat them. They're the enemy.
338
00:24:21,154 --> 00:24:25,349
And it's very easy, especially in
politics, to slip into that, that mindset,
339
00:24:25,404 --> 00:24:30,041
right? Or we can say, you know, this is a
complicated issue. I have a point of view.
340
00:24:26,105 --> 00:24:44,239
but, but I felt, I felt I felt myself okay
been here before, and I felt myself kind
341
00:24:30,096 --> 00:24:34,512
I believe in my point of view, and I'm
going to take steps to, you know, address
342
00:24:34,568 --> 00:24:38,763
this injustice that I perceive to be in
the world. There's other people with
343
00:24:38,818 --> 00:24:43,179
different points of view, you know, and
I'm going to address and navigate these
344
00:24:43,234 --> 00:24:47,540
steps compassionately. I'm going to
listen, I'm going to be understanding, I'm
345
00:24:44,458 --> 00:24:59,970
of sticking closer to that center than I
certainly have in other cases,
346
00:24:47,595 --> 00:24:51,900
going to be honest and have integrity
myself, but I'm not going to, like, fall
347
00:24:51,956 --> 00:24:56,482
into this, like I'm on this side of the,
you know, line, you're on the other side.
348
00:24:56,537 --> 00:24:59,960
And, you know, we're just going to fight
it out, right? So it.
349
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:04,812
Yeah, we do this all the time in lots of
different contexts. But I think it's not
350
00:25:04,872 --> 00:25:09,784
again, not only is it is, I think, kind of
right, but it is. It is more effective,
351
00:25:09,844 --> 00:25:14,816
you know, to to approach and less burnout,
and, you know, less frustration and less
352
00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:19,789
your pain in the process. So I do think
that that, and I say this in the book, how
353
00:25:19,848 --> 00:25:24,761
we go about our our endeavors, whatever
they may be, is as important as whether or
354
00:25:24,821 --> 00:25:29,733
not the Endeavor is successful, right, or
whatever the outcome of the Endeavor is.
355
00:25:29,793 --> 00:25:34,705
It's like we are making our presence and
having our impact as we go right, as much
356
00:25:34,765 --> 00:25:38,420
as we are kind of at the end of whatever
this thing might be.
357
00:25:38,420 --> 00:25:41,937
Robert Kuang: Thank you for saying that
about the art of lessening, because you
358
00:25:41,991 --> 00:25:45,996
gave some examples in the book of what
that could look like. And it was so
359
00:25:46,050 --> 00:25:49,893
expansive, and it opened up my
perspective, particularly you talk about
360
00:25:49,947 --> 00:25:54,330
lessening with time, and you talk about
this relative to lots of other important,
361
00:25:54,385 --> 00:25:58,931
you know, pillars in our life as well. But
one thing I did, because I moved from New
362
00:25:58,985 --> 00:26:03,477
York City to Vancouver, Canada, last year,
and we're about to move again. And there
363
00:26:03,531 --> 00:26:08,023
was a lot of like, Oh, I'm gonna do this
after. Like, I started doing like, this is
364
00:26:08,077 --> 00:26:12,514
for after the move. This is for before the
move. And I was doing a lot of that for
365
00:26:12,568 --> 00:26:17,006
like, an entire year, because we knew we
were gonna be moving. And I really had to
366
00:26:17,060 --> 00:26:21,282
examine and inquire with myself why I was
doing that, what made, what were the
367
00:26:21,336 --> 00:26:25,828
things I was, you know, I could not deal
with until after the move. And it was such
368
00:26:25,882 --> 00:26:30,103
an arbitrary, interesting thing, because
it was all up to me. It was a choice,
369
00:26:30,157 --> 00:26:34,595
right? The way I saw it, yeah, and things
still happen, but it was just my framing
370
00:26:34,649 --> 00:26:38,546
of it was just so interesting. In
particular, you talk about things with
371
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,875
time and also particularly with work as
well. So obviously, don't quit the job.
372
00:26:42,929 --> 00:26:47,096
But you know, one of the biggest things
people talk about that's a problem in
373
00:26:47,150 --> 00:26:51,426
their life would probably be work or
dissatisfaction around that. Can you share
374
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,539
a little bit about your perspective on
this practice as it relates to like,
375
00:26:55,593 --> 00:26:57,650
career and money and things like that?
376
00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:01,409
Billy Wynne: Sure, sure. So, so I think
it's, interesting, because with time, with
377
00:27:01,464 --> 00:27:05,714
work and kind of material, you know,
comfort and things, there is the reality,
378
00:27:05,768 --> 00:27:10,291
right? I mean, you know, we have 24 hours
in a day. So, so again, this is not about
379
00:27:10,345 --> 00:27:14,595
denying, right, authentic experience of
life, right? Which there are hours and
380
00:27:14,650 --> 00:27:19,281
those types of things, you know, and there
are, there's a need for, you know, shelter
381
00:27:19,335 --> 00:27:23,749
and clothing and food, and there may be,
you know, perfectly healthy appetite for
382
00:27:23,803 --> 00:27:28,108
comfort, you know, more travel to Europe
and different things that people might
383
00:27:28,162 --> 00:27:32,576
want to do. So this doesn't dismiss any of
that. What it says is that how we, you
384
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:37,207
know, feel constrained by time or by these
material pressures or by our work is vast
385
00:27:37,262 --> 00:27:41,566
majority of that is self imposed, right?
So we can decide what our relationship
386
00:27:41,621 --> 00:27:46,034
with time is. We can decide how we come
forth with our boss, right? We can decide
387
00:27:46,089 --> 00:27:50,393
how we, you know, want to experience our
work day, right? So, so the, you know,
388
00:27:50,448 --> 00:27:55,079
it's also, maybe ironically, overlaps with
the chapter about love, where I talk about
389
00:27:55,134 --> 00:27:59,438
response, freedom and responsibility,
right? Freedom and responsibility. Right,
390
00:27:59,493 --> 00:28:04,070
freedom and responsibility. We are tend to
believe that, you know, our circumstances
391
00:28:04,124 --> 00:28:08,374
define how we feel, right? We it's kind
of, it's like a co dependence with our
392
00:28:08,429 --> 00:28:12,025
circumstances. We we give up
responsibility for how we feel to the
393
00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:16,493
things around us. It's like, well, I have
a memo due tomorrow, and therefore I am
394
00:28:16,547 --> 00:28:20,688
stressed and unhappy, right? And I can't
think about other things. This is a
395
00:28:20,743 --> 00:28:25,320
painful experience, and hopefully I'll get
it done on time, right? So that's one way
396
00:28:25,374 --> 00:28:29,297
to experience it, right? Another way is
like, there's actually something
397
00:28:29,352 --> 00:28:33,711
interesting here. You know, I took this
job for a reason, some reason. Hopefully
398
00:28:33,765 --> 00:28:38,397
it wasn't just for money, you know, maybe,
maybe it was, but I had different options.
399
00:28:38,451 --> 00:28:42,592
I chose this path of career or job. You
know, I can take some pride in this.
400
00:28:42,647 --> 00:28:47,060
There's a creative activity going on here.
It might be something very mundane and
401
00:28:47,115 --> 00:28:51,637
technical, but there's, there's something
coming out of my brain and onto the paper
402
00:28:51,691 --> 00:28:56,105
here that I can have some fun with and a
creativity with. We can choose how we're
403
00:28:56,159 --> 00:29:00,464
going to approach that endeavor, even
though there are certain constraints that
404
00:29:00,518 --> 00:29:04,823
are undeniable around you know, that that
do set the context. We can choose our
405
00:29:04,877 --> 00:29:09,073
relationship with those. Those contextual
factors take up a path of peace and
406
00:29:09,127 --> 00:29:13,160
creativity and ease. You know, even in
very kind of mundane circumstances,
407
00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:16,950
Robert Kuang: Yeah, chop wood, carry
water, kind of ease, yeah, sometimes many
408
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:22,530
people yearn for that kind of simplicity.
Isn't that funny? In modern society, we've
409
00:29:22,530 --> 00:29:25,260
advanced so much and some people are like,
I just want to lie down.
410
00:29:28,260 --> 00:29:29,400
Billy Wynne: Yeah, exactly.
411
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:33,720
Robert Kuang: We have a couple minutes
left. And I love to throw two words slash
412
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,750
concept to you, just to see your
perspective, mostly because I'll share a
413
00:29:36,750 --> 00:29:42,510
little bit. You know, I think probably the
concept of belonging and being at home and
414
00:29:42,510 --> 00:29:48,090
freedom are two things that have probably
driven my spiritual search or yearning,
415
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:54,060
probably my entire life without really
even being what to name it at first. Yeah,
416
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,950
and I think a lot of the Buddhist path and
people who are interested in mindfulness
417
00:29:58,950 --> 00:30:00,090
and taking care.
418
00:30:00,090 --> 00:30:05,010
Or their actions and themselves this way,
probably think about belonging and and
419
00:30:05,010 --> 00:30:09,540
freedom and maybe have some struggle with
that. So I'm just curious how you relate
420
00:30:09,540 --> 00:30:12,900
to these two ideas within the Buddhist
path, if you will.
421
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:16,682
Billy Wynne: Sure, sure. Well, first,
Sabine Selassie wrote a book called You
422
00:30:16,740 --> 00:30:21,465
Belong. And I do, I do reference it in my
book. It's a really beautiful book, and
423
00:30:21,523 --> 00:30:26,247
it's really centered around this core idea
of belonging. My theme, and I believe,
424
00:30:26,305 --> 00:30:31,088
consistent with hers, if I may say so you
know, is that if we can find that place,
425
00:30:31,146 --> 00:30:35,812
or we can begin to cultivate that place
where we are whole and complete from the
426
00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:40,186
very beginning, we're not actually
lacking. We are not needing more things
427
00:30:40,244 --> 00:30:45,143
externally to make us, you know, whole and
complete, then we belong. Right? Wherever
428
00:30:45,202 --> 00:30:49,809
we go, we are at home because we are
already at center, at peace within our own
429
00:30:49,867 --> 00:30:54,533
selves, right, with a deep understanding
of kind of where we came from and where
430
00:30:54,591 --> 00:30:59,374
we're going. That is another way of being
in community. It's a way of being in our
431
00:30:59,432 --> 00:31:04,331
space. It's a way of inhabiting our space
that says that, you know, I have things to
432
00:31:04,390 --> 00:31:09,114
do, I have relationships I need to tend
to, but my happiness is not contingent on
433
00:31:09,172 --> 00:31:13,838
the outcome of those things, right? My
happiness starts from from the inside and
434
00:31:13,896 --> 00:31:18,445
moves outward like this, the belonging,
and then the other piece you mentioned
435
00:31:18,503 --> 00:31:23,169
was, oh, freedom, freedom. Thank you.
Yeah. So, yeah. So it's really kind of two
436
00:31:23,228 --> 00:31:27,777
sides to the same coin, right? Because,
you know, in that space, and I this is
437
00:31:27,835 --> 00:31:32,267
part of the my version of the metta
meditation that I offer in the book, and
438
00:31:32,326 --> 00:31:37,283
it's all really how I think about the crux
of my my practice these days is, you know,
439
00:31:37,341 --> 00:31:42,066
feeling free to come forth and greet the
next moment with an open heart, right? I
440
00:31:42,124 --> 00:31:46,848
mean that that is, that is at the heart of
our day to day activities, is we? Yes,
441
00:31:46,906 --> 00:31:51,864
there are contacts, yes, you know, we kind
of, we have our authentic life experience,
442
00:31:51,922 --> 00:31:56,588
and sort of those around us. And yes, our
feet are on the ground. And, you know,
443
00:31:56,646 --> 00:32:01,312
there are the materiality of our authentic
life experience. And at the same time
444
00:32:01,370 --> 00:32:06,036
within that, we are free, you know, we
are, we are able to greet the next moment
445
00:32:06,094 --> 00:32:10,760
with an open heart, if we choose to meet
it that way, right, whatever it may be.
446
00:32:10,818 --> 00:32:15,776
And it can be very sad and painful, it can
be very frustrating and difficult, or, you
447
00:32:15,834 --> 00:32:20,441
know, it can be very joyful, and, you
know, blissful and and you know, and more
448
00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:25,224
positive side of life. And we are we, you
know, are free to choose how we advance
449
00:32:25,282 --> 00:32:30,065
into that next moment in whatever form it
presents itself to us. And that's really
450
00:32:30,123 --> 00:32:35,022
gets to the true meaning of of happiness.
If we can recognize and embody and embrace
451
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,930
that freedom that we have, then it's all
gravy. You know, it's all
452
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,880
even this, even in sad moments and like, I
mean, like, really sad loss of a loved
453
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,870
one, you know? I mean the pain and the
sadness is very real. And at the same
454
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:54,300
time, there can be this beauty, right?
There's care, there's love, there is there
455
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:59,100
is a depth there that is a very, very
magical and miraculous part of being a
456
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:03,870
human being, right? And so even as we're
crying and desperate, you know that's
457
00:33:03,870 --> 00:33:08,340
there too. And you know we are free to
access that does not go away, whatever our
458
00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:12,240
circumstances may be. We are free to
access that if we cultivate our openness
459
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:12,510
to it.
460
00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:14,910
Robert Kuang: Yeah, and thank you for
mentioning the power of choice. I always
461
00:33:14,910 --> 00:33:19,080
like to remind people a lot of this is
exploring the power of our choices,
462
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:22,980
because sometimes people think like you're
just a follower, right of all whatever?
463
00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:27,930
Yeah, and once again, it's just a reminder
of this is looking at what we choose in
464
00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:32,520
any given moment. So I always appreciate a
good reminder of that, Billy, for anyone
465
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,060
who wants to find you or connect with you.
Where can they do that?
466
00:33:36,090 --> 00:33:40,380
Billy Wynne: Yes, they can go to my
website, Billywynne.com and they can also
467
00:33:40,380 --> 00:33:46,710
order my book from whatever platform
they'd like that way. And so I'm also on
468
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:48,840
social, and you can find all that through
my website.
469
00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:53,370
Robert Kuang: Perfect, yeah, and I'll link
it as well. So yeah, thank you for your
470
00:33:53,370 --> 00:33:57,210
time today, and thank you for having me
just being part of the ride with the
471
00:33:57,210 --> 00:33:58,140
technical hiccups.
472
00:33:58,170 --> 00:34:00,810
Billy Wynne: Oh no, thank you for your
patience as well. I'm glad we made it
473
00:34:00,810 --> 00:34:02,430
work. Great to be with you.
