Designed Without Us

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Questian Telka: Welcome to She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts Questian Telka.

Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.

Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges and unspoken truths of life in this profession.

Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you are not [00:00:30] and you should not have to figure this out alone.

Questian Telka: Special thanks to our sponsors, forward Lee Justine Lackey's, the incubator and Keeper, for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying.

Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is called Designed Without Us. When we don't take our seat at the AI table and we have a very special guest with us, our good friend Twila Verhelst.

Questian Telka: Twyla [00:01:00] is a CPA with a career that spans co-founding and advisory led accounting firm, launching a technology startup and leading accountant channels and partnerships at FreshBooks and Mercury. She currently serves as the Vice President of industry, relations and community at carbon, one of my favorite apps. She is also the co-founder of TB Academy, offering education and training that empowers accountants to harness AI with [00:01:30] clarity and confidence. Twyla, thank you so much for agreeing to join us today on Sheet Counts. We are especially excited to have you here to talk about two things that I find fascinating and love to embrace as much as possible. Ai and technology. And then, of course, the role that we as women want to and need to play in both of those areas.

Nancy McClelland: We love [00:02:00] watching each episode with a story and question. I know you have a special one about how this very episode came about.

Questian Telka: Yes, that's right. So I was recently at Aaron Cohen's Wave conference, and during that conference, Twyla gave a talk on embracing AI to lead with purpose, and I was pretty much blown away. Some of her thoughts were so incredibly [00:02:30] insightful, and I just thought, we have to we have to cover this on the podcast.

Nancy McClelland: I got a WhatsApp from you question like seconds after it was over being like, oh my God, we have to bring her on the podcast to talk about this. I mean, I don't know that I've ever seen you that motivated and impacted by a presentation at a conference before.

Questian Telka: Yeah, I was really blown away. I was like, this is everyone needs to hear this. Um, and there are some, some tidbits [00:03:00] that when, uh, when she shares them that I will I'll be sure to to highlight as some of the things that really kind of shocked me and blew me away. And, Twyla, I really want to hear from you. Can you share with us what has inspired you, um, to, you know, dive into AI. What was the genesis for you to write the presentation that you gave at wave?

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah, I'm happy to do that. Firstly, I just want to start by [00:03:30] saying thank you for having me on. I adore both of you and love this work that you're doing in the accounting space, specifically for women and men who are looking to be allies. For those of us who are really trying to, uh, you know, really, really figure this out all together. And so I'm so glad that I saw you at Wave in Seattle. Question. And I'm pleased that you quickly sent Nancy a WhatsApp note. Uh, and, and, you know, for me, the the impetus of that particular presentation that I was so lucky that Aaron had invited [00:04:00] me to give was really, you know, kind of a real segment of my own journey with AI two years ago, almost two years ago to the day, you know, I, I sat with AI saying like, oh my gosh, I'm so far behind. I haven't even opened ChatGPT. I don't really know what accountants need to know, let alone what I need to know. Like, it just it was all feeling overwhelming. And then it took me an entire year later in that exact same moment. And [00:04:30] I know where that moment was because I was at AICPA engage in Vegas and I was like, gosh, I still haven't done anything. I'm still feeling behind. I have not taken the reins. And so I promised myself I'd engaged 2024 that a year later I would be able to say, I'm. I don't feel behind. Um, the truth is, I still do feel behind because it's moving so quickly. But I've done a lot of work and a lot of, um, training about training and education and done a lot of research and [00:05:00] digging into what is happening in this space and specifically what is happening in this space with women. And so that was kind of the segment that I shared at wave was more around, how do we leverage AI as women? What's happening with women's adoption and AI, which I can share more about that during our conversation today. And and you know, am I alone with feeling like I'm behind?

Nancy McClelland: Okay. I am going to have to weigh in on that one, because [00:05:30] for those of you who are listening and not watching this video, I am just nodding and and thumbs upping and making hearts with my hands. Because every time you say I feel behind, I feel behind, I feel behind. That resonates and I feel like I would love your help understanding the problem here. Like, why do you think it's. It's that all of us are slow to adopt this. Are women specifically slower to adopt technology? What about AI in particular? [00:06:00] Um, because I feel behind too. And on the other hand, I also feel like I'm doing as much as I can. So am I. Am I always going to feel behind?

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah, I think I think that is a great question that that we, we are all at this crossroads of like do we feel are we behind. Do we why do we feel behind and what's going on here. And if we if we even just take AI out of it, just take technology in general. Women generally are slower [00:06:30] to adopt technology than men. And there's a whole bunch of reasons why that happens. One is, you know, innately we aren't risk takers as women. Now, some of us are and some of us aren't. There's always this varying degree, but innately, women are not risk takers. If you go way back to our ancestors. When you think about like men went out to hunt women stayed home or back at the tribe to care for the the children and the elders like we, [00:07:00] we were cautious by nature and that that's still a strain inside of us, that is, proceeds with caution. Additionally, you know, we like to be perfectionists. And and again, this is subconscious that it happens that we feel like before I can really experiment with something or put something into full execution, I have to have it perfect versus men generally are a bit more like relaxed with that. They're like, I'm just gonna go for it. And and [00:07:30] whatever happens, happens. And they, they have this innate ability to do that versus we as women hold on to some of these things that that are very like deeply ingrained in us. Additionally, you know, especially if we talk about AI, a lot of AI adoption is truly playing and experimenting and trying. And I'm guessing I can speak for both of you and every woman who's listening to this. We don't exactly have spare time.

Questian Telka: I [00:08:00] think that's an understatement.

Twyla Verhelst: Right? I don't I don't have capacity in my day. To play like that just doesn't happen. I'm looking after children. I'm. I'm looking after senior, um, parents, you know, managing a household. I have a career. I have a part time job on the side of that, you know, it just isn't happening versus men generally do have more time to play now. Again, I'm speaking in broad terms, but I found this really insightful to know [00:08:30] why I was feeling like I was behind and that I wasn't alone, and that there's some really innate characteristics of women that are having us, um, hold back and just capacity in terms of how we can actually adopt any type of tech, but especially AI because AI, like really the best players in AI right now, are ones who experimented early, not who read textbooks and or data scientists, [00:09:00] especially not in the accounting space. They started to just play with it. And so, you know, we don't always have that time to play. And so, uh, I can share some tips and tricks as to how to introduce some of that play time that doesn't feel like it's wasted time. Um, oh, and one other thing actually about AI specifically is that a lot of times I hear women feeling like AI using AI is cheating, and as women, we hold it very close to our chest that we do quality work. Um, unfortunately, [00:09:30] now you know the trophy for staying up till 1 a.m. to put your heart and soul into something is kind of gone. And so, you know, but but women have felt like. I feel like I'm cheating by using AI as my tool versus men are very dismissive of that. They're looking for any way possible to do the thing right.

Nancy McClelland: And again.

Twyla Verhelst: In broadest terms, not all men [00:10:00] are like that, but innately they're like that. And so, um, versus women are really want to, you know, put themselves into something and feel like that's part of the learning. And then part of the I did this and I, and I put my heart and soul into it.

Questian Telka: And we also, I think, innately feel this need to constantly prove ourselves. And so I think the idea of taking something that could be considered a shortcut and then, um, not [00:10:30] being looked at as, as, you know, serious contributors like male counterparts is something that's like kind of always, you know, at your core, at least it is for me. Um, and it's also, I feel and I love and use ChatGPT all of the time, but I still find even taking it to the next level, the next level use of AI so intimidating. And I'm excited, you know, a little bit later when you when you do share some of your tips [00:11:00] because I think that's a big there's a big gap there. Um, and it's, it's really intimidating and important to know, like, how else can I be embracing this? What else can I be doing?

Nancy McClelland: And I love what you said about about playing, um, because for me, it's not just about capacity. It's about I don't know how to play with technology. I didn't grow up playing video games. I didn't grow up, um, taking apart electronics and putting them back together, [00:11:30] like those were. Those were boy hobbies. Those weren't girl hobbies. And again, I am talking about my my own. These are broad strokes and this is my own life. Um, but even my friends. For example, um, Teresa Sutter in Bookkeeping Buds was giving us a walkthrough of a technology she used a while back, and she just kept saying, just go play with it. Just go play with it. And I was like, I, I honestly don't even know what you mean when you say that. [00:12:00] I don't know how to play with technology.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. And you know what? I think that's really common. Because if you're not of that mind where you're, you know, trying to solve a video game or you like to take things apart only to rebuild them as you're explaining, Nancy, that it isn't natural to play with technology. But the cool thing about AI is that playing an AI can feel much more natural. Um, [00:12:30] now, when it comes to things like automations and some of these more advanced things, um, that will feel a little less natural if you're not the technology, you know, experimenter. But experimenting with AI can literally look like upload a photo. Actually, I did this the other day because my daughter is going to turn 18 here shortly, and I was curious to know if, like, how much she's going to get asked for ID, and I figured that she will because, um, in in Canada, you can actually drink legally [00:13:00] at the age of 18 in our province. And so I was she actually gets asked at a restaurant if she, if we'd like a kids menu. And so she's just small, she's petite. And so I put her photo into ChatGPT and said, how old do you think this person is? I gave them three different pictures of her that were very recent, and they said, between the ages of 12 to 15.

Questian Telka: Wow.

Twyla Verhelst: Example of playing with it, right? Of like, I was just curious to know what somebody who's not as close to her as I am would actually say if they weren't feeling [00:13:30] like compelled to give her mom the answer that they thought I'd want to hear. So, um, so yeah, that's an example of playing with AI because you can just do things like that with it that are really interactive. Using natural language that you know you can't do in some of these technologies that accountants adopt where you can't really play. You know, it's not just like innate like, you know, you look at it and you're like, I don't know where to start. Versus, you know, when you look at ChatGPT or perplexity [00:14:00] or, um, Copilot or Gemini where, you know, I don't know where to start is like an open text box that you can just type in anything and use that as your starting point. So, so I do love that about AI.

Questian Telka: I do too. And you mentioning that you took that photo and threw it in, um, reminded me of something that I did the other day, which is kind of funny, and it was personal. So it's like I always think of playing in terms of, um, and getting used to it in terms of business reasons, but I and [00:14:30] I guess it sort of was, but I, you know, I'm using it on a regular basis. It knows so much about me already. So and I know some people were doing this online, but I asked it to to tell me about myself. And then I started digging deeper and it was, you know, I felt like I was, um, having my tarot cards read or like, playing with a magic eight ball when I was a child because it, um, I then asked it, you know, to tell me about my personality. And after that I was like, what are my weaknesses? And I [00:15:00] was just really floored by how accurate it was.

Nancy McClelland: You know, that's interesting because, um, my friend Ashley. Ashley. Frances. You guys know her? Um, she always says that women are actually better suited to adopting, implementing, and convincing others to use AI specifically, not technology in general, because large language models are actually built as exactly what that says. [00:15:30] Language models and women tend to be stronger in that area than male counterparts, and so I can't help but imagine that maybe some of the not experienced experimenting is stigma related, as opposed to AI specifically. What do you two think about that?

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with what Ashley's saying because it is a large language model. Ai tools are built off of natural language. And the number one, like the [00:16:00] number one roadblock to not getting what you need out of AI is poor communication. Um, the second would be it just doesn't know. But the first always is that we aren't communicating properly. And you probably haven't noticed this in your own experiences that sometimes you will put something into ChatGPT and you're like, bingo, this is exactly what I wanted. This is dynamite. And other times you put something in there and you're like, dude, you're not getting it. No, I get it. You're not understanding [00:16:30] what I'm talking about. And if you actually were to grab snippets of these over time, you would see that probably how you shared something or asked something in the times that it was dynamite versus the times that it missed the mark is probably you've probably done a much better job of prompting communicating in one instance than the other. So generally, again, speaking broad strokes, women tend to be better and more thorough communicators than men. So this is, you know, going back to the [00:17:00] what I shared at wave. This is why, you know, women do need to pull up their seat at the table. And if that seat's not there, you just bring your folding chair.

Questian Telka: And.

Twyla Verhelst: And you, you create that seat. Because ChatGPT and other AI tools are built off of user input. And so if most of the users are men or the earliest adopters are men, then it's being trained on and continues to evolve [00:17:30] on how males use the platform versus how women will use the platform. And because AI is not a fleeting technology, at least that's what I believe at my core, that this will not be something that will look back, like we look back, say, at the time of Covid. I mean, remember when we used to wear masks? Remember when we thought schools would be closed for two weeks? Um, this won't be that. I believe that it won't be. And so this is why it's important that not only are we [00:18:00] starting to embrace it and getting ourselves feeling more comfortable with it, but also that we're we're teaching the tools and the development teams and the engineering teams that are going to continue to evolve. These tools are way of working with it and what's helpful for us from our seat, because that can and will look very different than what men do with the tool and what men need from their seat. So that's why I believe, really, that this is a critical moment for us to even if it's instances [00:18:30] of playing or asking a question like, tell me about me. Tell me what you know about me, or putting pictures in to ChatGPT to say, how old does this person look? At least it's getting inputs from diverse users instead of segmented users.

Questian Telka: Yeah. And that really that really blew my mind during your presentation when you when you made that point that because we tend to be later adopters, these tools [00:19:00] that we're using are being built without our input and specifically something so adaptable like ChatGPT that is, like you said, it's it's changing based off of our inputs. If we are not adding our input, you start to think about what is that going to look like in the future? And it's kind of scary.

Twyla Verhelst: It is scary. And and I think, you know, sometimes we as women will think like, oh, I'm not shaping the future. I'm [00:19:30] not a coder. I'm not creating a technology or platform. But every prompt that we put into an AI tool is an insight that's being shared and teaching that tool. And, you know, you can be rest assured that there's developers and engineers on the other side that are watching what's being put into the tools to say, like what? What are the people want? What are they using this for? And one of the things that I shared at wave is that, um, part of what [00:20:00] got in my way with adopting AI is because I kept hearing this message of do more with AI. I don't want to do more. Uh, quite frankly, I already do a lot. And I'm sure every woman and the two of you included, do more than enough tasks in your day. I don't want two more tasks. 50 more tasks. I want time back to do what I want [00:20:30] with it, not more tasks. And so that was part of what got in my way of adopting AI is because I was like, no, I'm not interested in doing more. Um, but I am interested in having some time back. I am interested in doing the work that I do better. I am interested in ensuring that I'm at the table, not just to contribute to how the technology is shaping out, but also that when it gets more [00:21:00] and more advanced, I'm not behind. I've actually been in that seat my seat belts on. I've got my control panel in place and I'm ready. So I am now like reframed the reason to use AI. It's not to do more.

Nancy McClelland: I love that, you know, I was just presenting last week at Scaling New Heights with Jennifer Diamond, and one of the quotes that she said, um, was that AI keeps threatening us with a good time. As in, it's [00:21:30] going to take away our jobs and everybody is so afraid that it's going to take away our jobs. And she and I are like, I'm here for it. I want it to take away the drudgery. I want it to take away the parts of the job that I don't need to do, so that I have time to do the parts that require a human element so that I have time to do those better. So I watched as as with everything else you've said today, that really resonates with me.

Twyla Verhelst: For [00:22:00] me, AI actually ends up taking away some of that overwhelm of like some of those, those tasks that you're talking about. Nancy, uh, just this morning, I was on a call with somebody who said, I have this document that I'm trying to frame our positioning on something, and I don't like it. I feel like it's it actually starts from the negative. I feel like it's got off track. I needed to start over, and I needed to be in, like, have this sentiment. And if it wasn't for AI, I'd be panicking, [00:22:30] going like, dear Lord, how can I possibly keep up with my notes? Uh, what? Like and how will I turn this around and give this person a refreshed document as a great new starting point for like, this is what this is the story we were trying to tell. And because of AI, I've got the transcript. I will now be taking the transcript and putting that into AI as well as the original document and saying, like, mesh this together, but reframe [00:23:00] it the way that this person is looking to have it reframed. And then I'll go in and add my flavor to it. But I can assure you that that task would feel incredibly daunting and very tedious if it wasn't for AI. And that's what excites me.

Twyla Verhelst: I think it's fun, you know? I think it's fun to then take that data, that transcript and the original and say, let's figure this out. Like I think of it as this new project and this new view on a project versus me, like madly taking notes, like worried about [00:23:30] how will I ever put this into a document in the way that they're asking for and in a format they're asking for? I probably would be losing sleep for a week trying to figure that out. So I agree with you, Nancy. Like, how do you take away some of these tedious, mundane, overwhelming tasks? And then what you do with that time, that's for us to decide, like, I don't want you filling it with like, sand in between rocks and in between pebbles, like, fill it with what you wanted. Like, [00:24:00] let that sand be, like, whatever you want it to be. And it might be more time with your kids. It might be more time to go for a walk. It might be. It might be more work if that's what you want it to be. But choose what you want it to be instead of it being like, oh, I'm going to do more with this time that I have left over.

Questian Telka: Yeah, I think that's so, um, so it's so amazing how fast it can formulate that too, because I've done something similar with a couple of pieces of data [00:24:30] that I needed to intertwine, right? I wanted it to look at both and create something new for me, and it would have taken me, like you said, days. And it took me ten minutes. And then I had, you know, I still have you still have to go back and redo everything, but it, it it's incredible how powerful it can be. Um, so I want to ask you what happens when products aren't built with women in mind? And I'm thinking specifically of a story [00:25:00] that you shared in your presentation about the Apple Health app.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah, yeah. What I, what I uncovered, which, uh, truthfully, I did not have um, I had Apple products at that time. I did not have an Apple Watch at that time, so I wasn't really watching this closely. But in 2014. So just over ten years ago, when Apple launched its health app, it was launched without a period tracker. And [00:25:30] the reason for that is because of women not being a part of that development. And women like, no matter who you are as a woman, no matter what phase of life you are in, our whole rhythm is revolves around the 28 ish day cycle. Like it's just part of our makeup. And the fact that that is skipped in a health app is critical information, because it's going [00:26:00] to give you signals that are inaccurate because at certain times of the month, your heart rate is higher and lower at certain times of the month, even your rate of breathing is higher and lower. Your body temperature is certainly different. No matter what age you are, even if you are not at that like perimenopause and menopause phase of having the hot flashes. You still have different body temperature throughout. So what it's going to do is it's going to send out these flags and you're like, oh my gosh, I should probably go to the doctor because like, [00:26:30] I feel like it's giving me this signal there's an impending sickness or something wrong with me. Uh, meanwhile it's like, no, no. If you look back, you'll see that this happens very frequently or that it's going to miss something that is important because, you know, you're you're then chalking it up to, well, that is part of that rhythm when meanwhile, it's actually something that, you know, isn't part of that rhythm. And so it took them an entire year to then go back to the drawing board and say, huh, we should probably include [00:27:00] this in this critical, uh, app that we've launched so that 50% of the population can use this in a way that's actually, you know, based off of science and data and the makeup of a woman.

Questian Telka: Yeah, it's it's kind of remarkable.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it is remarkable, right? I'm something that it makes me think of immediately is, um, an older technology, but but similarly important seat belts. [00:27:30] I used to date a, uh, an engineer who designed seat belts for cars. And, um, he explained to me that for many, many, many years, they only had male models. They only had their seat belts. They are it whether you're driving the car or you're sitting in the passenger seat or you're in the back, these are the things that are keeping us safe in a vehicle that is moving potentially at very high [00:28:00] speeds. And they only were testing them on men. And so at some point somebody realized, oh, maybe we should bring women in and have them be models as well. And I was very lucky because I was I'm not only a woman, but I'm a very short woman. And so I got to come in and do the, um, the 1% that was at the lowest end of the, of the height. Um, they, they, I got to, to come in and be measured in all of that kind of stuff, [00:28:30] uh, because they were finally getting to the point where not only were they doing this for men and for women, but they were looking at outlier cases. And that just that analogy with what you just described, Twyla, I mean, you talked about putting on your seatbelt earlier. Um, it's kind of a more direct analogy than maybe you even realized.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. No kidding. Well, thank you for representing the short women, Nancy.

Questian Telka: And.

Twyla Verhelst: Keeping.

Nancy McClelland: Us accountable.

Twyla Verhelst: Exactly, I appreciate it.

Questian Telka: Yeah, it's really hard to believe [00:29:00] that that recently that there was an a lack of consideration for that in a health app when to your point during your presentation are cycle guides so much of us as human beings and our lives, and to leave that out from something health related for a woman is you might as well not have anything health related. It's just such, such a big part of our, our [00:29:30] makeup that it's, you know, it's really unbelievable. And I'm what do you think that it says about the broader gender bias in technology development?

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. I mean, I think I think that does represent just that, you know, that they, you know, from the seatbelt moment that you're talking about, Nancy, through to technology like a health app and how women are, you know, the difference between men and women just isn't considered. [00:30:00] Um, those are things where it's pretty critical, right? Like a woman's size, uh, and even body makeup, like a seatbelt goes across a woman's chest, like, uh, versus then, you know, the health app that, you know, again, difference in Hormones and makeup. Uh, you know, something like AI isn't isn't as obvious that there's differences between men and women, but there certainly is. I mean, I've talked about a few of them already with communication, how risky we are or risk averse we are. Um, you know, these differences still exist. [00:30:30] And because because AI is not a fleeting technology, it means that it's important that we are represented because inside of tech companies, we generally are not. And it's because we aren't the first ones to put up our hands to be beta testers. Um, you know, inside of tech companies, they're often male dominated. That's a, you know, similar to accounting, that it's a historical, you know, leadership in tech companies and leadership and accounting companies has been male dominated historically. Now it's exciting. We're seeing that evolve. [00:31:00] In fact, I'm proud to say even at at Carvin, our CPO for ten years has been a female, which is, um, which is incredible. But, uh, you know, you don't always see that. And so, um, how do we ensure that we are putting up our hands and being involved in testing some of this? And again, it it needs to fit into our day.

Nancy McClelland: Now I'm putting up my hand physically right now because I want to be a part of this solution. But I have this sense that I will [00:31:30] I will never catch up. I will never be an expert like Chad Davis or Jason Statts or even Ashley Francis, one of the women in our field who's really well known for her contributions to AI. So? So how? I don't understand, how can I help? I'm never going to catch up. I'm behind. It's all too late. What do I do? I'm a failure. Twyla, help me not be a failure.

Twyla Verhelst: You're not a failure. I'm going to help pick you up. And here's how I'm going to do that. Um, firstly, [00:32:00] I have this strong opinion, which, you know, I've heard the philosophy of, like, have strong opinions, but hold them loosely. I'm holding this one really tightly.

Questian Telka: And.

Twyla Verhelst: Help pick you up. Um. Which is? I don't believe there is experts in AI. I adore Chad's work and Jason's work and Ashley's work. I am actually very thankful for the work that they continue to do in our profession, where they're charting this course very bravely, very [00:32:30] publicly. Uh, that's moving our profession forward in, in this space of AI and innovation at large. Uh, but even they as much as I love and adore all three of those people you mentioned, they're not experts. And because that's because they can't be. It's moving too quickly. It's moving too fast. Have they played with it? Experimented with it, tried it, tested it more than all three of us potentially combined have done. Yes, I would [00:33:00] say that's probably true. But the reality is, is that they're still not experts, which I hope gives you a sense of like, they're not experts, and we're not experts either. And nobody is behind. The person who is behind in this space is the person that is saying, I'm not touching AI, ever. I was just listening to a podcast the other day where somebody was saying, like, there's a partner at their firm that actually was able to retire recently and never had a computer.

Questian Telka: Wow. [00:33:30]

Twyla Verhelst: They were able.

Nancy McClelland: To.

Twyla Verhelst: Exit the profession without a computer. Now those would be very rare. But, you know, there's probably people in the profession that will be able to exit without embracing AI professionally. But none of us, none of the people that we know, none of the people listening to this podcast, are going to be able to exit without it. Um, and they're they're not they're not even behind because even listening to this podcast is [00:34:00] telling me you're not behind. It's telling me that you're curious, that you're engaged, that you want to learn. And even if it feels overwhelming or heavy or just like disruptive or the imposter syndrome sets in, whatever that looks like. I'm speaking from my own experience. That's how I can rattle off all of these feelings so easily, too. Um, if you're feeling any and all of those, that's okay. But you are leaning in and that's [00:34:30] that's exactly, exactly where you should be. And that means you're not behind. Now, what you do from like the gap between where a new person staring at ChatGPT for the very first time versus these people that we look to as the experts and innovators in our space is they're like this, this, you know, breadth of work in between there. Yes, but where you are and where you need to be today in [00:35:00] that breadth, um, is is very personal. It's very personalized to you and and how much you adopt it, how much you lean in, how much things you get into, like AI agents and automations. Let's be honest, AI agents aren't doing much of anything for anybody yet. Um, because they're just not there yet. So Chad and team, like, that group of people are exploring that on our behalf while we're over here using it for other things that do feel like [00:35:30] this is exactly where I'm at, and this meets me where I'm at, and I can use it in a way that I find valuable and not overwhelming.

Questian Telka: So important. I agree, it's like finding finding those ways to fill in because as I was saying earlier, I use it every day, but I am still I'm like, how can I continue to grow in my use and use newer tools that are focused [00:36:00] on embracing AI? Because very much I can get into, you know, um, ChatGPT and some of my tools, like carbon, already have, um, some AI built into them. But then there's definitely a gap between what I am using it for, and I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job of. Like I said, getting information out of it, like taking two pieces of information and asking it, you know, make an outline [00:36:30] for me or some of those, those uses. But I'm curious, can you share? Because I know you have a lot of tips on how we can start playing with AI, with AI and other emerging technology. Do you have some, you know, some specific uses or ideas that the women listening can try to help them either get started or kind of bridge that gap that we were talking about between, [00:37:00] you know, where some of us are and where some of these leaders that are doing a lot of experimentation are.

Twyla Verhelst: The first thing that I actually suggest, honestly, is like taking some steps back to recognize, like, what is it that you want from AI today? And, you know, potentially have this like look into the future to say, like, where do I want to be eventually? But I just want to encourage all of us to make sure that what we're doing with AI isn't because we feel like we should, [00:37:30] or that somebody else is doing it, but rather we recognize like, no, no, I, I really do want to embrace AI for that particular purpose. That's beyond my use cases today. And if you don't even know what those beyond my use cases today are, you might not even need to, you know, really embrace those yet. Right. Like I think it's it's it can be a very phased approach that doesn't have to feel like somebody pushing us from behind, because a lot of these tools [00:38:00] where we're seeing, you tech that's putting AI into their app, or some new emerging tech that's like, oh, we're AI driven and we're AI first. Some of that's going to be really valuable to us in our accounting firms. Some of it's going to be fleeting. Now AI in general is not going to be fleeting. I hold true to that. But some of these tools will be fleeting. And so to even like Overrotate on embracing something too quickly, I think that's where women do have an advantage, because we can be a bit more hesitant to not go [00:38:30] so far on certain things.

Twyla Verhelst: You know, if you rebuild your entire workflows, question at your firm and you're like, oh, this is fantastic. I've embraced some new technology, some new tools. I've got these new workflows, and then suddenly one of those tools is not there anymore, or it completely flipped on its head as to how it works because this is evolving so fast. It's going to be really disruptive. So I like to think of this as more of a strategic, like, what is it that I want from AI? What is it I really [00:39:00] need today. And then start with something that's like, I'm using it for this. This is a pain point I experience. How can I leverage AI to solve for that pain point and keep tiptoeing it and stepping it that way? Because otherwise it's going to feel very overwhelming and you're going to think like, oh my gosh, I need to do all these automations and things with agents, and this is what's coming next. And and maybe that is where you go and invest your time there. But I would just be cautionary on [00:39:30] doing it if you're not doing it from like the right standpoint of know, this is the pain point I'm trying to solve and I am going to invest in this way.

Nancy McClelland: I love that perspective of identifying the pain point first, and then figuring out how AI can help you solve that pain point. Um, because for me, I, you know, I have noticed that there's it feels like in general when people are talking about women being late adopters of technology, there's shame and there's There is blame and it [00:40:00] sounds like you're not. You're not blaming women for late adoption. You're just like exploring why this happens and what the consequences are and and how we can shift the narrative by becoming more aware and empowered and, um, sort of create our own inclusion by just leveraging our curiosity to solve existing pain points. That's a very practical solution.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that you like that. And I think the other thing that I'm seeing that is helping women to keep moving [00:40:30] towards, like using it more. It's helping everyone to be honest towards using it more because it's not just men, women who are not at like the Chad Davis Jason stats Ashley Francis level. It's it's other there's men too. I was on a on a call with some firm owners yesterday that they are just starting to use AI inside of their 40 person firm based in New York. And so, um, the thing that is hopeful is learning in community. Now, I [00:41:00] am an advocate for women's communities because of the fact that it can quickly feel intimidating when a man does have this extra time to invest in something, and suddenly it comes back the next day. He's like, look what I built! I'm like, I did. I put food on the table last night. That's what I successfully accomplished.

Questian Telka: Washing my hair. Exactly.

Twyla Verhelst: That's a luxury, right? And so, um, so I find with women we can be a bit more vulnerable with, like, hey, I used it to check out how, like, ask [00:41:30] it how old my daughter is. It was fun. Now I know that it looks like she's 12 to 15. That's why she keeps getting a kids menu at a restaurant, right? So, you know, I can share that. Versus a man going like that's nothing compared to what I built. Again, speaking broadly, I have men in my life that I absolutely adore, but it pulls back that imposter syndrome and gets it out of the way. Uh, in a space that be more vulnerable and share about things that are maybe just more fun or personable or exploratory. [00:42:00]

Nancy McClelland: Well, and you mentioned women communities because, um, you were telling us before we started recording that there's one that, you know, of that that is basically creating a safe space where women can go in just with other women and experiment with this and share those stories so that they don't feel that intimidation.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah, exactly. It was something I saw on TikTok where it was, uh, somebody who's inviting female founders or female entrepreneurs to a slack channel. She's just opening up a slack channel and saying, let's just use [00:42:30] this to share. I'm using slack because most of us have slack. It's not another tool we need to invest in and adopt that we can share in. It's like a chat thread but searchable. So let's use this. And they're using it for this. I tried this and it worked. And also I tried this and it fell flat and it didn't work. And and that's some of the fun in AI is like pushing it to its boundaries. And I find it like, quite frankly, I find it frustrating when I push it to its boundaries because I'm like, I just need your [00:43:00] help right now and you're not helping me. Um, but it's because I've overwhelmed it or just can't do some of the things I want it to do. I was looking for a data point that I saw in the last one week, about the percentage of firms that are now offering advisory. Somewhere in my social media or conference life, I found that I saw that stat. Do you think I can find that stat again for the life of me? Absolutely not. I tried every AI tool to find it. I even tried [00:43:30] Google to find it. I cannot find it. So you know, there it is. It's frustrating. It's like, okay, I guess, uh, hopefully I see that again somewhere so I can use it, but I it wasn't it's not helpful for that, that context or that purpose.

Questian Telka: I would love to know what are some of your favorite uses or favorite uses, funny other funny things that you have done, trial and error moments different.

Nancy McClelland: Or where in your in your job [00:44:00] working with so many women in accounting as partners like where you're seeing their biggest value as well. That's a great question. Question.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. I think, um, let me give you kind of three examples. One, that's kind of fun. And the flex that I use at a restaurant. But um, I think number one, honestly, is that I see women using it for as a really valuable tool is like interpretation. Because as women, when we get a form of communication, [00:44:30] we sometimes I'll say, I will, I sometimes I won't say that either of you do this.

Questian Telka: I know where you're going with this. I can probably agree.

Twyla Verhelst: I sometimes will sit there and think, are they mad at me? What do they mean by that? Why were they so short? What is thumbs up mean in this instance? Right? Like I will look at some communication and overrotate in ways that are completely unnecessary. So I think when I see women take a snapshot [00:45:00] of an email or text message or chat thread and they're saying like, help me decipher what this means, and then what I should do from here, that saves a lot of a headache over rotating sleepless nights in some cases. Um, and then back and forth. Right. Like, there's nothing more painful than you send somebody something, and then they turn around and ask you another question, and then it's like, it's like, oh my gosh, I do not have time for this back and forth nonsense. Let's just [00:45:30] solve this. And and sometimes, honestly, the answer which I remember seeing this at at wave question is like to just pick up the phone conversation. Uh, and but I will tell you that to where I'll say, um, you should probably have a voice conversation with this person. Oh.

Questian Telka: That's funny. It will, it'll tell you that. Oh, wow.

Twyla Verhelst: I've seen I've seen it say, like you would probably be well served to pick up the phone. Um, so, you know, I think that that's [00:46:00] a great way that I see women using it, and it it feels like that's not technical because it's really not. But is it helpful personally, if that text message is from your kid's teacher or professionally, if that's from your client? We are trying to figure out like, what do they mean by this email? Um, that's I think that's a really helpful way to use AI. That just helps save our energy and time. Um, the second one then would be.

Nancy McClelland: I have to interrupt for a second just [00:46:30] because I don't want to forget to say that I love the word overrotate. Um, overthinking and, uh, perseverance. And, um, these are a lot of things I talk about with my therapist, but I feel like overrotate is more. That's clearer language. And we were talking earlier about the art of the prompt and how important our. You were saying that the the first blockage to having AI work successfully for you is poor communication. I feel like the more accurate and specific we can get with our language, [00:47:00] the better the results are going to be. And for me, Overrotate is. I don't know if that's just a Canadian English word or if that's your special word, but I have officially adopted that into my work now. Thank you.

Questian Telka: I too, I know that's the-

Twyla Verhelst: It's yours to take. I don't think it's Canadian so, um, you're not you know, you don't have to come up here to use it. You you can just have it.

Nancy McClelland: Um, thank you very much for that. I'm so much more grateful.

Questian Telka: So much more positive than spiral, which is generally [00:47:30] what I say about myself.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. Spiral or overthink or you know, um, all these other terms. So I'm glad. I'm glad you like that. I Mike McDermott, the, um, founder of FreshBooks, always used to say the phrase words matter And I loved hearing that. And I think that's actually from others that, you know, have said that beforehand. But he really stressed that at that company. And I took that away from my time at FreshBooks was hearing that because [00:48:00] now with the world of AI, words definitely matter. And AI will be the first to showcase to you that you're not communicating well or you're using language that isn't helpful. And sometimes that's because it gives you back something from a prompt that is not helpful to you, or that you'll start to see it reframing some language. And you can tell it like, hey, I want to be more positive even myself. Thought, I want to be more positive. How can you help me?

Nancy McClelland: I think that careful introspection can actually [00:48:30] be part of what gets us there. As a writer myself, um, I find myself sometimes really frustrated with my experiences with ChatGPT because it has taken what it thinks I want and I will have to go back to it. I have to think about it for a moment beforehand, though, the same way I would think about a message that I'm going to write in a card to a loved one, or I want to think about what it is that I'm writing in an MSN article. And carefully [00:49:00] crafted language comes from careful introspection, and when we can stop and take a breath and think about what we're really trying to do, we can actually go back to any of these, um, these generative tools. It's also helpful for me to remember that they are not just search engines they are generating. And so if I go back to them and I say, I feel like you misunderstood me, here's what I really mean, that that, um, so far they have been pretty good as long as they have the technological ability [00:49:30] to do what I'm asking. They've been pretty good at saying I misunderstood. Let me start over.

Twyla Verhelst: One of my biggest unlocks. Um, that speaks to what you're talking about there, Nancy, with it saying, like, kind of filling in things that you're like, that's not what I meant. Or it's it's sometimes even making up information. One of my biggest unlocks was to better understand that AI tools like ChatGPT are designed to fill in the blanks and make assumptions. And that's because if you only gave it limited information and it kept coming back with like, [00:50:00] but why? But why? Almost like this nagging kid. But why? But how come? Tell me more about that. Like it would be frustrating to use it as a user. So instead it's trying to get to a helpful answer quickly so that you keep coming back to it to use it again.

Questian Telka: That's so interesting. I had.

Twyla Verhelst: Not.

Questian Telka: I had not realized.

Twyla Verhelst: Interesting. Yeah. It's also why it's so kind to you. You know, where it says like, oh, that's really insightful of you to say that. Like, I was actually using it this morning for something [00:50:30] that I'm working on with my parents, and it's like complimenting on me on how helpful I'm being for my parents. And it's because it wants you to come back for more. If it's like, girl, you're being a bad daughter right now. You are missing the details. And it's like, I'd be like, close my laptop. I don't need to hear any of this. Um, but it's designed to be really affirming and fill in the gaps with assumptions. So the less you let it fill in the gaps for [00:51:00] itself, the better it'll be. Unless it started to get to know you and then sometimes can make assumptions that you're like, bingo, that's exactly what I wanted. But that's a learning over time and not every instance. Sometimes you do want it to talk really technical. Other times you're like, this is for a client. We need to talk at like a 10,000 foot view. I want to talk to somebody as if, you know, they're a business owner who doesn't understand a PNL. Like that's going to vary inside of your use cases with ChatGPT. And ChatGPT doesn't know always [00:51:30] which assumption to make, so it fills in those gaps without you telling them.

Questian Telka: That's really interesting. I know you also mentioned that you had two other ways Is that you see it used or that you recommend using it. And I want to make sure that.

Twyla Verhelst: Let me give you those two others because I know we're coming up on our time. But the the other one that I think is really helpful, I mean, I already shared the example of like meeting transcripts. And I know, um, Jason and Chad when we're talking about these people that we look to, they're also big advocates of using meeting transcripts. [00:52:00] Meeting transcripts have certainly changed my life of, like, how I can really listen in the meeting, not being concerned that I'm missing the details with writing them down quickly on my remarkable and then worried about what I'm going to do afterwards because did I capture everything or the right sentiment? And so, um, that that one I think is really critical.

Questian Telka: This one is huge for me because I always tell Nancy she's an incredible note taker. I [00:52:30] cannot take notes and focus on.

Twyla Verhelst: That's impressive.

Nancy McClelland: I am showing for those who can't see the video here I am showing them the notes that I have taken from this episode.

Questian Telka: It's a.

Nancy McClelland: Full page. It fills up. Yes.

Twyla Verhelst: And it looks nice and tidy too.

Questian Telka: It does? Yeah. And I can't do that. I can't be engaged and do that. So I think that's a really great tool and piece of advice. And there's a few of them out there. We, we know that there are a couple that are actually [00:53:00] think going to be integrating with carbon one um called vinyl one called albacore. Um, you know, I've used Reed AI Reed AI. I don't know if you have recommendations for other ones.

Nancy McClelland: I compared, uh, Firefly's Fathom and Otter and ended up liking fathom the best. But as Twyla keeps saying, this is all moving at breakneck speed, and I'm pretty sure that the reasons I ended up picking fathom are are like, [00:53:30] they might not be ahead in the ways that I needed them to be ahead, uh, anymore. And so something that just happened yesterday, last night, in fact, was that there was a meeting where I was getting a question from a client and I had not recorded the meeting using a note taker. And, um, but somebody else in the meeting had recorded it not with a note taker, but just locally. And so she sent me that recording. I uploaded it into, um, Otter AI fathom was not [00:54:00] able to handle this for me. Chatgpt was not able to handle this for me, but ChatGPT recommended that I use otters. So I went to Otter, uploaded the video, it created a transcript for me, and then all I had to do, I didn't have to search the transcript. I simply asked the AI, the generative AI within Otter, could you please tell me what? Speaker number two summarize what she had to say for this entire meeting.

Nancy McClelland: And then I came back to it and I said, did speaker [00:54:30] number two ever refer to points one, two, or three? And now I can answer the client's email and and remembering exactly what I said. So I can say, as I mentioned in our meeting on such and such a date, blah blah blah, but I also did not say out loud all the things that I had thought I had said out loud. And so it was. It was very helpful. But one of the frustrations. Yeah, isn't that interesting. One of the frustrations that I had, though, was finding the right tool to do what [00:55:00] I needed to do. To go back to what question was saying about how many there are out there to do, you know, does it integrate? For example, you use carbon, right? Does it integrate with other tools that you're using? Um, has does some of them have features yesterday? Question I believe you were telling me about how, um, one of the tools that you use, I think it's AI, actually gives you a.

Questian Telka: Sentiment.

Nancy McClelland: Tool like tell us about that, because I think women who are not using that would be fascinated.

Questian Telka: What [00:55:30] I've learned is that I have RBF. So basically this this tool will tell you your meeting sentiments and tell you like you know, about your how you're coming across during the meeting. And it'll rate your, your rating. And mine are always kind of like in the 80s, sometimes in the high 70s. And I'm like, I must have RBF because.

Nancy McClelland: It thinks that you're not being enthusiastic, but.

Questian Telka: I am.

Nancy McClelland: Engaging and. Right. Yeah.

Questian Telka: So it needs a little work, I think. [00:56:00]

Nancy McClelland: But all right. It's it's basing everything on expressive extroverts maybe.

Questian Telka: Yes, that might be true. So there's one more I know you have one more tip for us.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. Well and again, I mean, I could I could share a million of these. I feel like at this point where I'm seeing really cool things with like, SOPs using, um, custom gpts, we had somebody come through our training at TB Academy that created a custom GPT afterwards, and then put that onto their website, and now their clients [00:56:30] use that custom GPT as their first stop to ask their questions. So there's lots of cool things like that, but those aren't the like, how do I sit at my desk and do something today? So the third one that I'm going to share with you is actually just my fun flex, which is when I go to a restaurant. Um, now, to be clear, I'm flexing in front of my husband, who's not tech savvy. Um, when I go to a restaurant, I take a picture of the menu and I do a couple things with that picture of the menu. One is that I'll ask it [00:57:00] like, you know, which wine is which. White wine on this list is the driest. Um, you know, my ChatGPT instance knows my, my taste for wine. So it's like, which one do you suggest for me? And then if, you know, depending on, like if I'm happen to be watching calories or I'm trying to get higher protein, uh, then I'll be like, look at the menu and tell me which what I should choose and why. Always why? Um.

Nancy McClelland: Then this wait a minute. Go back to that. You said always the why?

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. [00:57:30] I want to know why. Why did it choose that for me? Because then I can help train it. If it's like. Well, because generally you tend to like chicken. You know, let's say it says something like that, then I'd say, well, no, but I also enjoy salmon. So let's consider the salmon as an option. And I have this little bit of a back and forth with it. Again I'm like including my husband in it where I'm like, watch this, check this out. Um, then, uh, then when I love the dish, if if I love the dish at the restaurant, then [00:58:00] I asked ChatGPT to recreate the recipe for the dish. And then I try and try to recreate that at home.

Questian Telka: Mind blown. Um.

Twyla Verhelst: So we can take, like, the, the descriptor. And I also take a photo of the meal once it comes. And then with the hopes that, like, I'm going to enjoy this, then if I want to recreate it at home, then I it actually does a pretty good job. So again, that's like a fun flex. But it's just again, it's using my instance of Of ChatGPT. [00:58:30] It's embracing it for things that aren't just work, it's using it in this fun way. I've inspired my husband to start to use it where he has been playing with it more now. Um, I've got my daughter playing with it a bit like it's just, you know, there's this flywheel that takes, takes, takes into motion, but, uh. Yeah, that's that's a fun one. But, you know, something more practical would be like, take a picture of a bank statement and put that into ChatGPT and turn that into a CSV file. [00:59:00] Like, that's all doable with this technology. Um, you know, I just like using the pictures for other fun things I like.

Nancy McClelland: You know, you had said when I asked you earlier before we started recording Twila, what what would make this a win for you? You you mentioned that you have, uh, had a role sort of historically in our industry of, um, doing the tripping and falling for us. And I am so grateful to you for that because, [00:59:30] well, for one thing, I love wine and I love cooking, so that is a really, really practical, fun flex. Um, but the the rest of this as well, and the, and the inspiration that you've given all of us to, you know, you did some tripping and falling for us. Maybe it's our turn to, um, take some of our natural curiosity and see what we can figure out, too. I, I'm so grateful to you for that inspiration.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks, [01:00:00] Nancy. Yeah. What? What? I've kind of self proclaimed as my. You know what? What I like to give to the profession is in instances where I can that I will do something first or forthcoming or in a way that's maybe a bit braver or bolder than those who are inside of their firms. And working day to day with clients can't do or can't do the way that I can. Now that I worked in tech full time and an education part time. I'm able to do some things that [01:00:30] that I didn't have the luxury of doing before when I was in the firm. So whether that was, you know, if you remember back to the video per day experiment or doing some things with women and mentorship. Uh, now with AI, when I decided I was going to embrace AI, I went all in and I said, you know what? I'm going to partner with somebody and we're going to create content and education for accountants, and there's no better way to learn and trip and fall, uh, with AI or any adoption of any tool than to say, I'm going to start to teach others [01:01:00] and and motivate others to use it. And I feel like there's times when I'm able to do that and give that to the, to the profession. And other times when I'm the follower, when I'm like, who's gone before me? Who's tripped and fall, please fall in and please like help me take the steps behind you. There's plenty of instances where that's the role that I play, but when I can, I like to, um, you know, give this back to the profession, which is why I love talking about this stuff and love, you know, being the [01:01:30] experimenter, because I'm not at risk of losing clients or messing up my entire team's workflow by embracing AI. So I can do that and share that back.

Questian Telka: So to that note, can you tell everyone where they can find out more about you and your work?

Twyla Verhelst: Well, LinkedIn's the social platform that I'm on, definitely the most um, I dabble a little bit in Twitter or X, but mostly I'm on LinkedIn and from there you can find, um, [01:02:00] in my profile, the TB Academy, uh, profile as well. That one's a little bit quieter, because Byron and I have just been so busy creating content over the last year, but we're excited that we've just launched our on demand of our, what we call AI foundations. Um, so people can take that in a self-study format. We also have live cohorts of that because, again, going back to community learning, where, um, you can come together with others who are embracing it. And then we have an AI impact course, which is the more advanced where we start going into like Excel [01:02:30] macros and advisory and some real analytical things with financial statements in that AI impact course. And so that one we also offer in a live cohort training or firm specific training.

Questian Telka: That's amazing. And I also, um, I also want to mention too, that, um, at wave and I'd already met her, but, uh, Tam Nguyen, who was also with us there she is, um, working as an AI educator and consultant and also [01:03:00] has some, um, on her website, which is tech with Tam. She has some free prompts. So because that's a good way to start, right? Is like getting your prompts right. So she does share. She does share some of those. So um, can you tell us where for TB Academy, what's the website and how can people get involved in in some of those courses and cohorts?

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah. So it's just TV Academy AI. [01:03:30] So that's the website address. Um, again, you can always reach out to me on LinkedIn and I can direct you to the right place where because it's summertime, we've only, uh, we've got a impact cohort here in July, and then it'll all pick up again in September just with people taking vacations. But you can do the on demand anytime. You could be sitting by the beach and having a margarita. Um, if you'd like to take that on demand, uh, training. But.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, well, I know what questions in my next vacation is going to be.

Questian Telka: Margaritas [01:04:00] and AI and the beach.

Twyla Verhelst: Yeah, you could call it, like, Aperol Spritz and AI. So be as and AI or something. Some sort of rhythm to it. Margaritas and margs. And I don't know how to figure out.

Nancy McClelland: I'm going to ask ChatGPT for help on how to name that one, I like it. Well, Twyla, thank you so much for being here today. This has just been an incredible conversation. I've learned a lot and I'm hoping that our listeners have too. Um, and speaking of our listeners, [01:04:30] we would really love to ask you all to please follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode Designed Without Us, what makes you most apprehensive about trying new tech or AI?

Questian Telka: And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by Sheryl Sandberg and that is that no industry or country can reach its full potential until women reach their full potential. This is especially true [01:05:00] of science and technology, where women with a surplus of talent still face a deficit of opportunity.

Nancy McClelland: It's a great quote, and I love that one. All right, Sheryl, thank you everyone for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.

Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you. Well, that's exactly why we're doing this.

Nancy McClelland: So you feel seen. Heard, and most importantly, never alone.

Questian Telka: And [01:05:30] remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links to that, and any other resources will be in the show notes thanks to Nancy's extensive note taking.

Nancy McClelland: And please subscribe and leave us a review because it helps other people find the podcast and share this with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.

Questian Telka: And many thanks to you, Twila, our amazing guest. We're so glad that you could join us. [01:06:00] And we'll see everyone in two weeks.

Twyla Verhelst: Thank you.