Structured Pleats: From Samurai to Sporty & Rich [Ep:3]

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Chandler: Welcome back to Sarcurious.
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Today's topic is pleats.
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Yoana: What's going on?
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Tell me about your week.
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Chandler: My week was good.
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It's spring here now, which is exciting,
but also kind of the worst time of the
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year because the entire world quite
literally turns into a yellow cloud.
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Like I walked outside today
and my car is usually dark gray
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and was fluorescent yellow.
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Yoana: Oh my God.
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I feel like you should take a picture.
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Send it to me.
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Chandler: It's kind of
terrifying, I'm gonna be honest.
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So everybody's sneezing, but it's also
still kind of that back end of flu season.
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So
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Yoana: mm-hmm.
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Chandler: bit scared of each
other 'cause we're like, okay,
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are you sneezing from pollen or
are you gonna give me the plague?
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So it's been pretty full on.
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Well, and, I feel like when spring comes,
everybody's just wanting to get out.
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So it's been a lot of socializing,
which is fun, don't get me wrong.
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But I would say I am on the lesser end
of extroversion in my friend group.
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So I've been trying to keep up, but we
did kind of stay in and watch Bridgerton
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on Friday, which was very welcome.
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Yoana: Amazing.
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Chandler: yeah.
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How was your week?
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Yoana: It was good.
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We went out to Sonoma,
which was really fun.
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We did a, a hot air balloon
ride back in, I think like 2023
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for my birthday in December.
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And then we went to this really cute
cafe, it was called Sunflowerr Cafe.
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like one of my favorite spots in the
city or kind of, I guess in the Bay Area.
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It has a really nice outdoor patio.
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It was so sunny, so it was really nice.
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Just like, get outside only 40
minutes away we're so lucky.
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But yeah,
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Chandler: Amazing.
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So pleats.
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Yoana: We actually have
a two-parter on this.
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Chandler, why don't you walk us through
kind of like how we've split those
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two episodes and, and what today is.
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Chandler: Yeah, so pleats are
actually kind of one of the
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oldest known fashion techniques.
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So pleats are everywhere.
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They've been throughout history and
there's a lot of different types of them.
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So because of that, we decided to split
this humongous topic into two parts.
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So we already have one
pleats episode that is live.
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So go give that a listen if you want.
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But that one is about pleats
as texture in a garment.
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So those are pleats that basically
add movement and make a garment
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really light and flowy, but are not
necessarily being used to actually
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build a silhouette of the piece.
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But today we'll be talking
about pleats that actually build
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a silhouette of the garment.
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And if you were to remove them, it would
be an entirely different silhouette.
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We should define the types of pleats
we're gonna be talking about today.
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Yoana: Yeah.
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Chandler: this is not all of
the pleats that exist, not all
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of the ones that are relevant.
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But it's kind of the ones that are
the biggest hitters in the bucket
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that we are discussing today.
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So, these are kind of architectural, so
they're actually building the silhouette
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of the garment and they're permanently
stitched into place, which is not to say,
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especially in antiquity that they didn't
require maintenance, but they're not
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just being created through draping alone,
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Yoana: Mm-hmm.
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Chandler: So the definitions I'm
giving are kind of our modern
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day understanding of these.
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A lot of these would not have
been seen this way in antiquity.
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So first we have knife pleats, which are
these sharp single direction creases.
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If you think like school uniform
or tartan skirt, knife pleats is
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gonna be what pops into your head.
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and these have been around for a super
long time, earliest as 16th century
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petty coats, that kind of vibe.
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Then we have box pleats, which
are wide inverted folds that are
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very geometric and structured.
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Aline skirts have these, they can also
kind of be that tartan skirt vibe.
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and these are also very common.
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We'll talk about when these
have been used, but they go back
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as far as the knife pleats do.
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And then lastly we have cartridge
pleats, which are super labor
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intensive and decorative.
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Basically they're gathering
a ton of fabric and sewing
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it into a very small space.
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So they're creating a ton of volume.
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And they make a garment really
sturdy again, with that structure
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just because there's so much
volume being placed close together
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So if you imagine an Elizabethan ruff,
like those huge collars in oil paintings,
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those were made with cartridge pleats.
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and they basically allow the fabric
to kind of stand away from the body.
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It's the type of thing where if you took
a cartridge pleat garment and put it
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the ground, it would hold its shape even
though there's not a body inside of it.
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So super structured with these.
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Yoana: Question for you on that.
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Talked about my top last time in
the other episode we did, but I'm
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gonna do it again just because
I feel like a visual is helpful.
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This is obviously kinda like a puff
sleeve or even, would you say a cartridge
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pleat is kind of similar to when you
have a shoulder pad and a garment,
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like the shoulder pad when you put
it on the ground, that's not moving.
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Chandler: So functionally I can
see where you're coming from.
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They are adding a bunch of
structure to a garment and like
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creating a certain silhouette.
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As far as the actual construction,
they're pretty different, but yes,
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they're adding a bunch of structure and
changing the silhouette of the piece.
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Ruffs is kind of the biggest example,
that probably has the most cultural
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relevance, but a lot of the really
intricate 18th century dresses had
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them along the waistbands, especially
when basque waists were really popular.
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Because you know how they had those
massive hips coming off the waists.
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That was kind of how you're
creating those big hips.
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And then obviously there's a structure
beneath hoop skirts; actual pads a lot
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of the times were worn on the hips,
but on top of all of that would be
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these cartridge pleats that are kind
of both visually stunning, but they're
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Yoana: Mm-hmm.
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Chandler: also actually construction
wise, adding volume to a gown, or
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a ruff or whatever the piece is.
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But I'm gonna start us off with
an overlap with our other pleats.
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I feel like you can't talk about pleats
and not talk about Egypt just because
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it's the oldest example of fashion that we
have, then also just pleats in particular,
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it's so important to the story.
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So the world's oldest woven garment that
we have is called the Tarkhan dress.
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It's over 5,000 years old and it's
a linen dress with pleats in it.
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It comes from just south of Cairo, like 30
miles away, and it was discovered in 1913.
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I mean, it's pretty crazy.
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You can see the photo
how well preserved it is.
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But essentially these pleats
were hand pleated and would need
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to be re- pleated and retreated
every time the garment was worn.
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So these were kind of mostly worn
by the wealthy and even royalty.
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Like my one other example from Egypt
is King Tut, who wore pleats as well.
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So Egyptian men would wear these pleated
kilts, which are called shendyts.
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And here we have a relief that kind
of shows him wearing one next to
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his half sister slash consort who
is also wearing a pleated garment.
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So these were worn for a long time
throughout Egyptian history, Old and New
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Kingdom …and are definitely pleated.
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It's interesting they actually kind
of resemble some of the pleats that
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we'll be talking about in this episode.
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So this is one that I would say kind
of bridges both buckets that we've put
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together of pleats because they are
permanent, but they also needed to be
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re-pleated, They're small in scale,
which is kind of reminiscent of our
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other bucket, but they're also extremely
structured and parallel which is again,
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more reminiscent of today's topic.
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So gotta love the Egyptian pleats.
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They're kind of back
where we started it all
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Yoana: You mentioned in our last
episode how things in the tombs hold
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pretty well in terms of preservation,
but it's just really interesting to me
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that like the stains on the garment
from the person's sweat and then
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the pleats look untouched almost.
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Yeah.
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Chandler: No, it's crazy.
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It's 'cause it was so dry inside
those tombs and then it's so
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hot in Egypt that they just
basically were like frozen in time.
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But 5,000 years is wild.
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I would assume anything
would just disintegrate.
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Clearly not.
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It makes you wish, we had more
examples of that kind of thing.
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'Cause imagine if we had some of the
Roman garments, the Greek garments, and
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we have it through art and sculpture and
we can see those renditions, but that's
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a rendition, like an artist took some
sort of liberties there and we just will
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never know exactly what they looked like.
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But I'm glad we have our
Tarkhan dress at, at a minimum.
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So.
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we're gonna do a jump.
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There are obviously other pleats happening
here, but they belong in our other bucket.
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So I'm gonna take us
actually over to Asia.
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We're gonna start in Korea.
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and we're gonna talk about Hanbok
after I take this sip of water.
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Hanbok is this style of Korean dress.
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It's worn by both men and women.
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It's kind of a blanket term, but I'm
gonna talk about the women's dress
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'cause that's where we see our pleats.
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So we first see it during
the Goguryeo Dynasty.
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We're talking about like
37 BCE into the 600 CE.
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So long time period and a long time ago.
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But b basically women's Hanbok
at this time was a long neatly
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pleated skirt that was worn with
a long sleeve hip length jacket.
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these were really beautiful.
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The colors, the silks, the
patterns, sashes, they were super
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detailed and just very vibrant.
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And they change as time goes on.
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Obviously this is a very long time period,
so I'm gonna kind of zero us in on the
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Joseon Dynasty, which was 1392 to 1910.
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So that was the last Korean dynasty
and again, a long time period.
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But at that point these
styles became high waisted.
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Really high waisted.
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Like if you think an empire waist, that's
kind of what you should be imagining.
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and the skirt of the Korean
women's Hanbok was called a Chima.
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And we think of the pleats in this Chima
as kind of a modern day knife pleat,
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is the easiest point of reference.
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So it reflected Confucian ideals, so
think modesty and strict social hierarchy.
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and basically the silhouette was meant
to kind of show vertical harmony.
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So especially with that high waist.
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And even the hip length
jacket, you're kind of giving
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this straight vertical line.
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And part of how they did that
was obviously many people the
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waist kind of nips in, which is
creating a not straight line.
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So they used the shape of having an
empire waist up higher to kind of make
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it straighter or the hip length jacket
would give you that straighter line.
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And then with the modesty aspect,
these knife pleats are basically adding
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a bunch of volume so that the lower
half of the body you're conveying
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modesty by not having it be showing
basically the shape of the lower body.
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Especially during Joseon Korea,
Confucianism was all about propriety,
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restraint, clearly defined social
roles, which the pleats all
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kind of helped visually convey.
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Yoana: So when you say that
there was social rules kind of
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integrated into this era of society.
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I don't know if you mentioned this, but
did this type of dress, would you have
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a different pattern or would your waist
be higher depending on your status?
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Like was there any of that or how did that
translate into the garment, if at all.
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Chandler: I know for sure all classes
did wear the Hanbok, fabric and colors
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kind of varied based on some dyes in
particular were super expensive, so
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you can only afford certain colors.
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We'll talk about some other
societies where it was definitely
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even more stratified and, the
differences were even starker.
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But here it's kind of just basically
the quality of the materials
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that would probably show the most
difference as far as social hierarchy.
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But speaking of kind of super
stratified, we could talk about Japan.
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I know in Korea we talked about women.
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In Japan, we're gonna focus more
on the men, give them their moment.
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Um, So in Japan there was this
dress called Hakama a skirt like
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pleated trouser that was worn with
a kimono during the Heian period.
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So we're talking about around
800 through around 1200 CE.
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So this was originating with aristocrats
and court officials because it was
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really practical to wear while riding
horses and sitting on mats, because of
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those kind of wide legs in the trousers.
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When I say wide legs, like they
look like a skirt because of
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how wide the silhouette was.
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So during that period, the pleating
was pretty minimal and it was a lot
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about drapery and flowing and not a
ton of really structured pleating.
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00:11:44,188 --> 00:11:49,228
Then when you move on to the Kamakura
and Muromachi periods, which is right
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before 1200, up until the mid 16th
century the Samurai class kind of
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arose and gained a lot of social power.
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So at that time, the Hakama
actually became military attire.
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So this kind of split called Umanori
became more popular because it was
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practical for riding on horseback
because your legs have to be split.
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So then you're getting more
into this kind of trouser style,
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.
the ceremonial version kind of
retained that skirt like form and
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then the practical versions were more
worn by Samurai and actual warriors.
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Yoana: It sort of reminds me… The
pleat is totally different, but in our
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00:12:26,997 --> 00:12:30,537
last episode you told us a little bit
about the Fustanella and how that was
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worn by a lot of men in the military
and even though the look of these is
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very different…It's still interesting.
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Historically pleats show up in a lot
of military attire, which I think
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is really, it kind of goes across
regions and time periods in a way.
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Chandler: For sure.
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I think it's also funny, when I talk
about it, it makes sense why it would
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be practical and allow so much movement.
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But at the same time, I feel
like all this extra fabric in
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some ways is not practical.
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'cause I feel like I could get caught
on things and, I don't know, I think
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that speaks a lot to kind of the
style of fighting that was being done.
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Yoana: It's a really good observation.
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I hadn't thought about that.
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Chandler: Yeah, I don't know, I
think , in Japan as well as Korea, the
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Confucian ideals are very much in play.
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00:13:12,130 --> 00:13:17,640
But I think the military was so tied to
the social hierarchy and social structure
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that what they were wearing was also just
reflecting societal ideals more broadly.
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Which at this point, wider silhouettes,
reflected those ideals more.
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00:13:27,547 --> 00:13:31,027
so I think it's kind of all those things
at play that created these garments.
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00:13:31,027 --> 00:13:34,535
Moving along a little bit in history,
when we get to the Edo period, which
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is 1600 up until the mid to late 19th
century, that's when you kind of see
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those Confucian ideals coming through.
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So it was a blend of Confucianism, Zen
Buddhism and Shintoism, which all come
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together to create this concept called
Bushido, which is the way of the warrior.
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So at this point the Hakama actually had
seven deep folds or pleats, which we would
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think of today as kind of box pleats.
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00:14:00,625 --> 00:14:03,255
To give you a visual, there were
five in the front and two in the
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00:14:03,255 --> 00:14:08,425
back, they actually were symbolic
of the seven virtues of Bushido.
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So those were worn by the nobility and
were kind of a mark of formal status.
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00:14:14,168 --> 00:14:17,858
So as far as what those actual
virtues are, it was rectitude,
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courage, benevolence, respect,
honesty, honor, and loyalty.
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00:14:22,741 --> 00:14:26,641
So yeah, these were like super codified,
which is really interesting that pleats
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00:14:26,641 --> 00:14:28,021
were kind of the way that they did that.
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And it's seven pleats for seven ideals.
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00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,310
And that they were worn to
be visual reminders of that.
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00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:38,440
These could only be worn by certain
classes in specific contexts.
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00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,653
So very ritualistic, and
basically a mark of authority
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00:14:41,903 --> 00:14:46,403
.
Yoana: yeah, your mark on uprightness
is really interesting ' there's such
278
00:14:46,403 --> 00:14:48,113
a clear message that they're sending.
279
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These are the seven things.
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Chandler: Yes.
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00:14:50,063 --> 00:14:55,233
Well and what's interesting too is there's
sumptuary laws, which are basically laws
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00:14:55,303 --> 00:14:59,841
about clothing and luxury and what you are
allowed to wear that prohibited commoners
283
00:14:59,871 --> 00:15:01,751
from wearing these elaborate pleats.
284
00:15:01,984 --> 00:15:05,614
So pleats had their
power in Japan for sure.
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Yoana: Yeah,
286
00:15:06,989 --> 00:15:09,509
Chandler: Which brings us to China.
287
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:15,929
So in China, woman wore a mamianqun,
which translates to horse faced skirt,
288
00:15:15,929 --> 00:15:21,359
which is this pleated hanfu skirt
that basically has two flat unpleated
289
00:15:21,359 --> 00:15:23,399
panels along the front and the back.
290
00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:26,919
And then there's side pleats all
along the sides of the skirt.
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00:15:27,495 --> 00:15:31,215
Basically these were showing elegance
and were really useful for movement.
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00:15:31,275 --> 00:15:34,275
'Cause if you think about it, when
you walk, there's a lot of movement
293
00:15:34,395 --> 00:15:37,785
along the sides of your body and
less along the front and back and so
294
00:15:37,785 --> 00:15:40,815
these pleats on the sides, basically
allowed for all that movement.
295
00:15:40,815 --> 00:15:45,839
And then why it's called a horse face
skirt is visually that front that has
296
00:15:45,839 --> 00:15:49,619
no pleating and then the sides with this
pleating kind of looks like the face of
297
00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:54,329
a horse with the broad nose and the line
along the side of the face, and then
298
00:15:54,329 --> 00:15:55,969
kind of the contouring along the sides.
299
00:15:56,239 --> 00:15:57,169
If you can visualize that.
300
00:15:57,929 --> 00:16:01,909
But basically this originated
in the Song Dynasty, so we're
301
00:16:01,909 --> 00:16:05,082
talking 960 up through nearly 1300.
302
00:16:05,082 --> 00:16:08,202
And then they stayed relevant and
peaked through the Ming and Qing
303
00:16:08,202 --> 00:16:14,282
Dynasties, which is 1368 ish to
the beginning of the 20th century.
304
00:16:14,482 --> 00:16:18,972
And the fabrics were super luxurious
and really pretty, a lot of embroidery
305
00:16:19,002 --> 00:16:20,832
and just really gorgeous prints.
306
00:16:21,019 --> 00:16:26,639
and then these were actually worn
across various social classes from the
307
00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:30,342
elites all the way to the commoners,
then basically how high quality it
308
00:16:30,342 --> 00:16:33,672
was and how much decoration it had
indicated what class you were in.
309
00:16:34,072 --> 00:16:39,442
Talking again about Confucian ideals,
these show those ideals of balanced
310
00:16:39,442 --> 00:16:43,972
movement and modesty, but then allowed for
a little bit of expression through that
311
00:16:43,972 --> 00:16:45,532
embroidery and all the decoration on them.
312
00:16:45,732 --> 00:16:46,667
Yoana: Where does that take us?
313
00:16:47,067 --> 00:16:47,367
Chandler: Yeah.
314
00:16:47,367 --> 00:16:49,767
So we're gonna do a slight jump.
315
00:16:49,867 --> 00:16:53,727
We're gonna go to Europe and
talk about the Renaissance.
316
00:16:53,727 --> 00:16:57,327
So there were pleats happening before
the Renaissance, but they were kind
317
00:16:57,327 --> 00:16:59,907
of in our other bucket of pleats.
318
00:16:59,937 --> 00:17:02,547
So if you're interested,
go listen to that episode.
319
00:17:02,584 --> 00:17:05,164
So the Renaissance is when we
start to see these skirts and
320
00:17:05,164 --> 00:17:09,004
gowns that had knife and cartridge
pleats particularly at the waist.
321
00:17:09,004 --> 00:17:13,880
And these are seen in Western Europe,
but in particularly England and Italy.
322
00:17:13,930 --> 00:17:17,860
I mean, there's so many different
styles and it changes very quickly
323
00:17:17,890 --> 00:17:23,410
because being "in fashion" was used
as social capital at that point.
324
00:17:23,740 --> 00:17:27,940
So I'm not gonna get super granular
about, you know, the, each different
325
00:17:27,940 --> 00:17:30,010
era of fashion and how they were used.
326
00:17:30,097 --> 00:17:34,857
But the things that I will point out is
during the Elizabethan era, we have those
327
00:17:34,857 --> 00:17:38,757
ruffs that we talked about a little bit
earlier that are cartridge pleating.
328
00:17:38,757 --> 00:17:44,353
Those were really big and were worn a lot
by nobility, used a lot of starching, but
329
00:17:44,353 --> 00:17:49,343
then also precise pleating this point,
it's not just the actual sewing techniques
330
00:17:49,343 --> 00:17:51,053
that are holding those pleats in place.
331
00:17:51,053 --> 00:17:52,483
It's a lot of starching as well.
332
00:17:52,805 --> 00:17:54,150
Can I pause you for a second?
333
00:17:54,286 --> 00:17:54,646
yeah.
334
00:17:54,747 --> 00:17:55,797
Yoana: I don't know what that is.
335
00:17:55,997 --> 00:17:56,752
What is starching?
336
00:17:57,502 --> 00:17:57,792
Yeah.
337
00:17:58,161 --> 00:17:58,491
Chandler: Yeah.
338
00:17:58,491 --> 00:18:02,151
So you're basically treating the
fabric to make it hold its shape using
339
00:18:02,181 --> 00:18:03,801
starch, which is still done today.
340
00:18:03,801 --> 00:18:07,791
Like men's collars are
starched in their button downs,
341
00:18:08,467 --> 00:18:08,757
Yoana: Okay.
342
00:18:08,901 --> 00:18:12,171
Chandler: basically help it hold its
shape and it helps it to not wrinkle.
343
00:18:12,345 --> 00:18:12,635
Yoana: Okay.
344
00:18:13,035 --> 00:18:13,455
Chandler: Yeah.
345
00:18:13,515 --> 00:18:14,955
And it helps support the structure.
346
00:18:15,205 --> 00:18:18,055
But I think back then they were like
really getting in there with the starch
347
00:18:18,455 --> 00:18:19,895
does not sound comfortable at all.
348
00:18:20,295 --> 00:18:24,050
Yoana: What do you mean by like I, I'm,
you say starch, I think about corn starch.
349
00:18:24,450 --> 00:18:28,530
Chandler: Clothing starch is made
from natural vegetable-based starches.
350
00:18:28,643 --> 00:18:31,673
So it could be corn starch,
rice, potato, or wheat.
351
00:18:31,853 --> 00:18:32,153
So
352
00:18:32,243 --> 00:18:33,353
what came to your head.
353
00:18:33,443 --> 00:18:33,773
Yeah.
354
00:18:34,099 --> 00:18:34,389
Yoana: okay.
355
00:18:34,523 --> 00:18:36,083
Chandler: then they combine it with water.
356
00:18:36,083 --> 00:18:36,593
Yoana: Okay.
357
00:18:36,833 --> 00:18:40,013
Oh, and then what you're saying is like
you basically get that wet with corn
358
00:18:40,013 --> 00:18:44,123
starch and then you're like ironing
it, steaming it, whatever, while it's
359
00:18:44,123 --> 00:18:46,313
kind of wet with that and it stays.
360
00:18:46,313 --> 00:18:46,703
Chandler: Yeah.
361
00:18:46,703 --> 00:18:47,063
Yoana: Wow.
362
00:18:47,063 --> 00:18:47,453
Okay.
363
00:18:47,453 --> 00:18:50,198
Chandler: I doubt it's changed honestly,
all that much since how they were doing
364
00:18:50,198 --> 00:18:51,938
it back when Elizabeth was kicking it.
365
00:18:52,233 --> 00:18:55,653
Yoana: I bet she'd love to, love to see
that her influence is shining through.
366
00:18:55,786 --> 00:18:58,636
Chandler: Yeah, so that's kind of
the biggest example I would give.
367
00:18:58,666 --> 00:19:03,506
And then as garment construction goes
on and these techniques kind of evolve,
368
00:19:03,506 --> 00:19:06,096
pleats are used decoratively a lot.
369
00:19:06,096 --> 00:19:09,910
So I have an example of these
really beautiful pleats in a sleeve.
370
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,830
So there's this panel of pleated silk that
basically makes it look like the cuff is
371
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:16,470
turned back to reveal fabric underneath.
372
00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:18,690
And it's just like this
really pretty detail.
373
00:19:18,690 --> 00:19:20,190
And that's an 18th century piece.
374
00:19:20,190 --> 00:19:22,879
So moving us forward in time a
little bit, but basically pleats
375
00:19:23,070 --> 00:19:28,060
were used both decoratively and
actually to shape the silhouette.
376
00:19:28,185 --> 00:19:31,815
In the 18th century, we start seeing
mechanized accordion pleating, which
377
00:19:31,815 --> 00:19:35,909
basically allowed them to heat set
permanent pleats into silk, which would
378
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:40,359
continue to be done with synthetic fabrics
once they start becoming more relevant.
379
00:19:40,425 --> 00:19:43,865
So there's kind of this evolution
that starts to happen where pleats
380
00:19:43,865 --> 00:19:47,865
are evolving into more structured
clothing the crinoline comes along
381
00:19:47,865 --> 00:19:53,295
and the bustle and pleating techniques
basically were shaping garments to
382
00:19:53,355 --> 00:19:55,455
dramatically enhance the female form.
383
00:19:55,515 --> 00:19:57,615
So kind of what we were talking
about earlier with like the shoulder
384
00:19:57,615 --> 00:20:02,365
pad issue with the crinoline and
the bustle, it gets more dramatic.
385
00:20:02,365 --> 00:20:05,210
So there's actual structure
beneath the garment.
386
00:20:05,210 --> 00:20:09,910
And then there's also these pleats that
just creates crazy dramatized forms.
387
00:20:10,030 --> 00:20:10,415
Yoana: Can you
388
00:20:12,735 --> 00:20:13,145
define crinoline for me?
389
00:20:13,233 --> 00:20:17,123
Chandler: Yeah, crinoline is a structured
petticoat of net fabric designed to
390
00:20:17,123 --> 00:20:19,373
create volume to support dresses.
391
00:20:19,373 --> 00:20:23,243
So your wedding dress might have had
crinoline in, and mine definitely did.
392
00:20:23,243 --> 00:20:26,963
You know, those like layers of netting
essentially that are underneath
393
00:20:26,963 --> 00:20:27,563
Yoana: Mm.
394
00:20:27,563 --> 00:20:29,603
Chandler: formal gowns,
that's what crinoline is.
395
00:20:30,214 --> 00:20:30,574
Yoana: Okay.
396
00:20:30,774 --> 00:20:33,324
You're educating me further
while we do this, which is good.
397
00:20:33,457 --> 00:20:33,877
Okay.
398
00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,056
Chandler: also like the hooped petticoat,
399
00:20:36,307 --> 00:20:37,017
Yoana: yeah, yeah, yeah,
400
00:20:37,136 --> 00:20:38,396
Chandler: literally has hoops in it.
401
00:20:38,612 --> 00:20:39,262
Yoana: yeah, yeah, yeah.
402
00:20:39,662 --> 00:20:42,121
Chandler: But basically those
were paired with these pleating
403
00:20:42,212 --> 00:20:44,342
techniques like cartridge pleats
404
00:20:44,802 --> 00:20:45,042
Yoana: Okay.
405
00:20:45,242 --> 00:20:48,242
Chandler: to be able to create
these crazy silhouettes.
406
00:20:48,372 --> 00:20:52,751
So it's like, especially along the hips,
they were really popular, the pleating.
407
00:20:52,782 --> 00:20:55,422
Yoana: So crinoline's a thing
that everyone, you've probably
408
00:20:55,422 --> 00:20:57,712
seen it, you just didn't know
that it was called crinoline.
409
00:20:58,012 --> 00:21:01,082
Chandler: I mean, if you've been a
bridesmaid, you might have seen it.
410
00:21:01,082 --> 00:21:06,092
I would not say it's used very often
unless it's a very formal setting.
411
00:21:06,292 --> 00:21:10,432
Even black tie dresses, I don't feel like
many incorporate crinoline in these days.
412
00:21:10,432 --> 00:21:13,012
But wedding gowns do, if
it's like a ball gown.
413
00:21:13,012 --> 00:21:17,755
So once we get through all of this
Renaissance situation, cartridge
414
00:21:17,765 --> 00:21:22,315
pleating, the crinoline in all of
that, we also have kilts going on.
415
00:21:22,345 --> 00:21:26,035
So these can be traced back to the
16th century as the great kilt.
416
00:21:26,465 --> 00:21:27,884
And at this point they're
all being hand pleated.
417
00:21:28,055 --> 00:21:31,445
So I talk more about this in our
other episode, but basically you
418
00:21:31,445 --> 00:21:35,465
would create the pleats on the ground
out a belt so that they would stay
419
00:21:35,465 --> 00:21:39,875
in place, kind of lay them over
the belt and then wear the garment.
420
00:21:39,935 --> 00:21:44,915
But once we get to little bit
later, like 19th century, these
421
00:21:44,915 --> 00:21:46,625
started being sewn into place.
422
00:21:46,885 --> 00:21:50,095
Yeah, so that's kind of an example of
kind of the evolution of how pleats
423
00:21:50,095 --> 00:21:54,665
have been used and how they have
changed as techniques have changed.
424
00:21:54,965 --> 00:21:59,225
Yoana: So they started as something that
was created by accessorizing, if you
425
00:21:59,225 --> 00:22:01,085
will, by like how the belt was done.
426
00:22:01,085 --> 00:22:04,475
And then over time it was such a big
part of the garment that sewing it, it
427
00:22:04,475 --> 00:22:06,939
became more of like a structural element.
428
00:22:07,139 --> 00:22:10,499
Chandler: Yeah, I think they were
almost always a structural element.
429
00:22:10,679 --> 00:22:13,259
It's just that tartan was also being used.
430
00:22:13,259 --> 00:22:16,049
I mean, this was bread and
butter for the men who wore them.
431
00:22:16,049 --> 00:22:17,489
Like you would sleep on it.
432
00:22:17,489 --> 00:22:20,159
You would use them as
protection from the elements.
433
00:22:20,159 --> 00:22:22,469
The great kilt could actually
be brought behind you and
434
00:22:22,469 --> 00:22:24,359
over your head as a covering.
435
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,419
So, when that was being done, it
wouldn't have made much sense to be
436
00:22:27,419 --> 00:22:30,479
sewing them down because you would
lose a lot of those capabilities.
437
00:22:30,479 --> 00:22:34,249
But once the kilt was kind of
changing in how it was worn,
438
00:22:34,249 --> 00:22:39,249
it made more sense to just have
them pleated and sewn into place.
439
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:44,099
So at that point, they had kind of
changed in their structure and actual use.
440
00:22:44,329 --> 00:22:47,959
Yeah, so that's kind of getting
us into closer to modern day.
441
00:22:48,131 --> 00:22:49,902
Again, fashions change a lot.
442
00:22:49,902 --> 00:22:54,492
So Regency Era seeing less
pleating, but it's still being used.
443
00:22:54,492 --> 00:22:57,502
It's kind of now solidified
into fashion techniques.
444
00:22:57,502 --> 00:23:01,192
It does start changing again
as technology increases.
445
00:23:01,222 --> 00:23:04,282
So I'm gonna briefly touch on Fortuny.
446
00:23:04,282 --> 00:23:07,792
I'm not gonna talk about him a
ton because our other episode
447
00:23:07,822 --> 00:23:09,552
heavily touches on Fortuny.
448
00:23:09,552 --> 00:23:13,992
But basically there's this designer,
Henriette Negrin and her husband
449
00:23:13,992 --> 00:23:18,181
Mariano Fortuny y Madrazo who
started doing this heat set pleating.
450
00:23:18,552 --> 00:23:22,512
And, it's different than the pleats
we've been talking about because
451
00:23:22,512 --> 00:23:24,672
it's heat set into the fabric itself.
452
00:23:24,672 --> 00:23:28,932
And then the fabric you can basically use
as a raw material to make any garment.
453
00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:32,819
He made the Delphos gown is his most
famous garment, it's basically a way
454
00:23:32,819 --> 00:23:34,589
of creating texture on the fabric.
455
00:23:34,689 --> 00:23:38,979
I bring it up though because this heat
setting technique can also be used in
456
00:23:38,979 --> 00:23:41,919
the more traditional pleats like we've
been talking about where they can make
457
00:23:41,919 --> 00:23:46,449
graduated pleats and then basically
heat set these pleats so that they're
458
00:23:46,449 --> 00:23:50,949
sewn into place and they can still be
a knife pleat or box pleat, you can use
459
00:23:50,949 --> 00:23:54,549
these heat set techniques to basically
make them sharper and more pronounced.
460
00:23:54,809 --> 00:23:58,089
So yeah, that kind of gets
us up to the modern era.
461
00:23:58,099 --> 00:23:59,796
Any questions?
462
00:24:00,415 --> 00:24:02,455
Yoana: No, I feel like
there's so much there.
463
00:24:02,515 --> 00:24:05,275
I mean, it, it's interesting
'cause we haven't looked at each
464
00:24:05,275 --> 00:24:07,765
other's portions of, this before.
465
00:24:07,765 --> 00:24:11,695
And we've both kind of taken our different
angle of how we want to talk about this.
466
00:24:11,695 --> 00:24:14,725
I feel like this actually kind
of ties us really well to talking
467
00:24:14,725 --> 00:24:16,135
about why it's relevant today.
468
00:24:16,535 --> 00:24:20,855
I think there's today at least two
different messages that pleats play.
469
00:24:21,215 --> 00:24:24,245
And I, I'd like to like split that
out, but I think it ties really,
470
00:24:24,245 --> 00:24:27,215
really well to how they show
up socially that you bring up.
471
00:24:27,535 --> 00:24:32,185
In the first area I wanna
explore is kind of this wealthier
472
00:24:32,255 --> 00:24:34,125
nobility class old money.
473
00:24:34,315 --> 00:24:36,355
… This feeling of being proper, polished.
474
00:24:36,355 --> 00:24:41,665
It's been around for a long time, and
how people wanna buy into that and evoke
475
00:24:41,665 --> 00:24:44,575
the feeling that quiet luxury comes with.
476
00:24:44,575 --> 00:24:47,725
And then, you know, as a result
of, I think this being around for
477
00:24:47,725 --> 00:24:51,765
so long in this messaging of being
polished, there's almost like a
478
00:24:51,765 --> 00:24:53,685
quiet rebellion and subculture.
479
00:24:53,865 --> 00:24:56,535
It's actually not that quiet in some
places, and I'll talk about that.
480
00:24:56,535 --> 00:24:59,935
But this reversion , pleats are
supposed to be this proper thing.
481
00:25:00,325 --> 00:25:01,075
Just kidding.
482
00:25:01,075 --> 00:25:02,515
I'm gonna distress the hem.
483
00:25:02,785 --> 00:25:05,365
I'm gonna put like a
boxer waistband on this.
484
00:25:05,370 --> 00:25:08,380
I'd love to split it out and
kind of walk us into that.
485
00:25:08,380 --> 00:25:11,620
So maybe we'll start with this
old money vibe, which I think is
486
00:25:11,620 --> 00:25:17,284
super relevant 'cause the CBK, JFK
Junior CBK, meaning Caroline Beset.
487
00:25:17,284 --> 00:25:18,604
I've been on TikTok for too long.
488
00:25:18,804 --> 00:25:24,534
She's like a really good example of like
taking away a Prada logo from a jacket
489
00:25:24,534 --> 00:25:26,544
because she doesn't want it to be seen.
490
00:25:26,544 --> 00:25:30,044
And so I think in a similar
way, that quiet luxury is a
491
00:25:30,044 --> 00:25:32,084
reversion against logo mania.
492
00:25:32,084 --> 00:25:36,514
I think structural pleats like let you
tap into that same messaging . It's
493
00:25:36,514 --> 00:25:40,114
like a vibe without a logo is how I
think about a lot of these pleats.
494
00:25:40,114 --> 00:25:40,404
Chandler: Yeah.
495
00:25:40,479 --> 00:25:43,329
They definitely say something about
you because they're so structured.
496
00:25:43,729 --> 00:25:48,639
Yoana: yeah, if you are going to work
out at a Planet Fitness Crunch Fitness,
497
00:25:48,639 --> 00:25:52,089
granted, I'm a Crunch Fitness member,
no shame on that, but you're probably
498
00:25:52,089 --> 00:25:55,959
not going with like a pleated skirt, but
when you go to a country club to even
499
00:25:55,959 --> 00:26:00,639
just work out or be there, it's, it is
a, a belonging, like it's an institution.
500
00:26:00,679 --> 00:26:03,889
It's just a quiet wealth in
a way that comes through.
501
00:26:05,167 --> 00:26:05,457
Chandler: That's a really good point.
502
00:26:05,507 --> 00:26:08,917
I don't wanna like get too far ahead,
but when I think about what sports are
503
00:26:08,917 --> 00:26:13,477
associated with those garments, it's golf
and tennis, which are inherently kind
504
00:26:13,477 --> 00:26:16,167
of that old money, quiet luxury vibe.
505
00:26:16,197 --> 00:26:20,427
Very institutionalized in some ways,
elitist because they're so expensive.
506
00:26:20,427 --> 00:26:20,817
Yoana: yeah.
507
00:26:21,166 --> 00:26:22,956
Chandler: and like associated
with country clubs.
508
00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:25,756
Yoana: Yeah, I mean it's literally
where I wanna take us next.
509
00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:27,226
So you did it for me.
510
00:26:27,306 --> 00:26:32,006
But yeah, tennis core, or even golf too,
I think a lot of the writing when you
511
00:26:32,006 --> 00:26:36,951
think about that trend is, it's a crisp
white, it's a polo, it's a sweater draped
512
00:26:36,951 --> 00:26:42,230
over the polo, but I mean, they're always
paired with a pleated skirt, always.
513
00:26:42,290 --> 00:26:46,590
I think some people, at least from a
cultural relevance perspective, a lot
514
00:26:46,590 --> 00:26:52,360
of even buying into that trend, if you
are doing it with that outfit in a way,
515
00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:55,730
you might not be going to a country
club, but you kind of wanna evoke that
516
00:26:55,730 --> 00:26:57,040
feeling of being polished in a way?
517
00:26:58,755 --> 00:27:02,285
. I think like A really good example
, , it's almost a really clear social message.
518
00:27:02,285 --> 00:27:08,035
Like sporty and rich is like, the name of
the company is Sporty & Rich, literally.
519
00:27:08,435 --> 00:27:09,635
And then again,
520
00:27:10,245 --> 00:27:11,135
Chandler: The messaging is so clear.
521
00:27:11,255 --> 00:27:13,621
Yoana: Like I'm gonna show a
screenshot of their homepage.
522
00:27:13,651 --> 00:27:17,701
And like the first thing that you're
seeing, the first photo in a set of,
523
00:27:17,731 --> 00:27:22,141
I think three or four, is a pleated
skirt with a polo and a sweater on it.
524
00:27:22,141 --> 00:27:24,331
So , it's a very clear messaging.
525
00:27:24,331 --> 00:27:28,292
And I think another thing you can
see Lacoste will make a skirt that's
526
00:27:28,292 --> 00:27:34,032
$85 and Thom Brown is making a tennis
skirt that's like four figures.
527
00:27:34,032 --> 00:27:36,762
A lot of people wanna evoke that
feeling of put togetherness.
528
00:27:36,762 --> 00:27:39,642
So even though the silhouette is
staying the same, it kind of goes back
529
00:27:39,642 --> 00:27:43,362
to your point earlier of like fabric
is changing, the logo is changing.
530
00:27:43,362 --> 00:27:45,342
The context of the brand that
you're wearing when you're
531
00:27:45,342 --> 00:27:46,782
wearing the skirt is changing.
532
00:27:47,292 --> 00:27:49,842
I'm not saying that if you're going
to brunch wearing a pleated skirt,
533
00:27:49,842 --> 00:27:51,642
you're cosplaying being the nobility.
534
00:27:51,642 --> 00:27:55,902
But it's almost like, I don't know, I'm
disciplined, and I think that is the first
535
00:27:55,902 --> 00:27:58,582
piece of this, of why it's relevant today.
536
00:27:58,582 --> 00:28:00,802
'cause a lot of people
wanna still convey that.
537
00:28:00,802 --> 00:28:04,277
Chandler: Well, it's interesting 'cause
it ties back so clearly to this historic
538
00:28:04,277 --> 00:28:09,017
context we've been talking about with
in the Asian cultures, its giving these
539
00:28:09,017 --> 00:28:13,307
Confucian ideals of uprightness and
I mean, there's a morality component,
540
00:28:13,307 --> 00:28:15,877
which I don't think is as relevant
here, but , like you're following the
541
00:28:15,877 --> 00:28:20,597
rules and you're kind of just like
bought into this idea of being polished.
542
00:28:20,597 --> 00:28:23,777
And then within the European context,
those pleats that women were wearing
543
00:28:23,867 --> 00:28:29,027
with their corsets and these very
restrictive outfits, it was very
544
00:28:29,027 --> 00:28:31,217
structured, it's like how proper are you?
545
00:28:31,378 --> 00:28:31,798
Yoana: Mm-hmm.
546
00:28:32,087 --> 00:28:35,837
Chandler: And I think that now it's
changed, but I think that they still
547
00:28:35,837 --> 00:28:41,287
kind of do convey those ideals of
being polished and proper and there's
548
00:28:41,287 --> 00:28:44,587
still this kind of wealth component,
which is really interesting because
549
00:28:44,587 --> 00:28:46,567
they've always been a mark of wealth.
550
00:28:46,567 --> 00:28:48,697
And I think that that's
still super relevant today.
551
00:28:48,697 --> 00:28:49,027
Yoana: Yeah.
552
00:28:49,057 --> 00:28:52,747
And I think it's not even just like
country club aesthetic or tennis or golf,
553
00:28:52,952 --> 00:28:57,952
a lot of royalty off duty … pleats
are almost such a through line in
554
00:28:58,202 --> 00:29:01,982
everything they wear, I mean, there's
even some really good examples of Diana.
555
00:29:01,982 --> 00:29:06,049
It's not, it's not her biker short
moment, but I think like the biker
556
00:29:06,049 --> 00:29:09,489
short moment was , such a big deal
because it was very different.
557
00:29:09,489 --> 00:29:13,839
But if you look at Diana at a polo
match, in just some of the articles
558
00:29:13,839 --> 00:29:16,819
written about her, some of her
off-duty fashion moments, a lot of
559
00:29:16,819 --> 00:29:20,719
that is a pleated pant, a pleated
skirt with a sweater all the time.
560
00:29:20,719 --> 00:29:25,719
And there's this expectation for these
people to be , put together in public.
561
00:29:25,719 --> 00:29:29,619
two really quick examples that I wanna
play on this because I think one might
562
00:29:29,619 --> 00:29:33,069
have been a little bit more intentional,
at least when I tried to decipher it
563
00:29:33,069 --> 00:29:34,449
my way, I thought it was kind of neat.
564
00:29:34,449 --> 00:29:38,559
And then the other one ties to
your ceremonial mention, but
565
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:42,839
Meghan Markle did this Bloomberg interview
a while ago and it's in her home.
566
00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:47,399
And she's wearing this bright
yellow pleated set from Jenni Kayne.
567
00:29:47,479 --> 00:29:50,959
I thought it was really interesting
because the set itself is super bright.
568
00:29:50,959 --> 00:29:52,309
It's like very California.
569
00:29:52,309 --> 00:29:56,089
And a lot of the times when we
see the royalty wearing pleats,
570
00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:57,859
it's very neutral coloring.
571
00:29:58,089 --> 00:30:02,036
But, to me it was this message of
like, Hey, I don't operate inside
572
00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:06,416
this institution anymore, but I'm
still poised and I understand that
573
00:30:06,416 --> 00:30:10,286
code and this is how I'm kind of
choosing to evolve away from it.
574
00:30:10,286 --> 00:30:13,616
Obviously given the context with
everything with Harry and Megan,
575
00:30:13,616 --> 00:30:15,806
I thought that was, I don't know.
576
00:30:15,866 --> 00:30:19,046
I don't know if there's that much
there when she decided to get dressed,
577
00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:23,216
but I, I think subtly there is,
which is really cool in my opinion.
578
00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:27,236
And then probably like one of my other
favorite ones, just honestly, 'cause
579
00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:28,856
I thought the coat was beautiful.
580
00:30:28,856 --> 00:30:34,976
For Obama's second inauguration on January
21st and 2013, there's this image of
581
00:30:34,976 --> 00:30:37,996
Michelle wearing a custom Thom Browne.
582
00:30:37,996 --> 00:30:41,086
And it's a, a very beautiful pleated coat.
583
00:30:41,206 --> 00:30:45,856
And it goes back to , obviously the
inauguration is such a big ceremonial
584
00:30:45,856 --> 00:30:49,246
moment and I don't, I don't think
Michelle's been the only one.
585
00:30:49,246 --> 00:30:51,136
It just kind of caught my eye
'cause I thought it was really
586
00:30:51,136 --> 00:30:52,576
like, I would love to own that coat.
587
00:30:52,576 --> 00:30:55,666
But, um, yeah, it is still ceremonial.
588
00:30:55,696 --> 00:30:59,656
It is not the only ceremonial fabric
or element of fashion that like you
589
00:30:59,656 --> 00:31:02,836
would wear on an occasion like that,
but it is one of those that conveys
590
00:31:02,836 --> 00:31:05,086
that level of importance in a way.
591
00:31:05,086 --> 00:31:05,376
Chandler: Yeah.
592
00:31:05,506 --> 00:31:05,836
Yoana: Yeah.
593
00:31:05,896 --> 00:31:08,421
Chandler: it's interesting too with
Thom Browne Like there are different
594
00:31:08,421 --> 00:31:12,741
houses you kind of turn to for
different moments I feel like he
595
00:31:12,741 --> 00:31:16,901
is one of those designers that you
turn to in moments like that where
596
00:31:17,001 --> 00:31:20,526
you are trying to convey a very
specific vibe while still being fashion
597
00:31:20,526 --> 00:31:22,626
forward and obviously super relevant.
598
00:31:23,026 --> 00:31:27,759
But so many of his pieces feature pleats
and I think it's in part because it
599
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:30,999
does give this very particular energy.
600
00:31:30,999 --> 00:31:31,329
Yoana: Yeah.
601
00:31:31,579 --> 00:31:33,829
I feel like we've done that justice.
602
00:31:33,829 --> 00:31:37,399
If we think about a little bit
of how it is recoded, it's kind
603
00:31:37,399 --> 00:31:39,019
of like a rebellion in a way.
604
00:31:39,019 --> 00:31:43,679
That visual signal that pleats are
changes to being pushed back on
605
00:31:43,679 --> 00:31:47,879
slightly because over time, people
kind of start messing with what
606
00:31:47,879 --> 00:31:49,649
that code is for that institution.
607
00:31:49,649 --> 00:31:53,669
And so they're, they're not throwing it
away, but bending it, I guess in a way.
608
00:31:53,719 --> 00:31:56,749
School uniforms are such
a good example of that.
609
00:31:56,749 --> 00:31:59,059
A classic pleated skirt, you
mentioned this in the beginning,
610
00:31:59,059 --> 00:32:02,389
if you think about a private school
uniform, I mean, it's literally like
611
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:04,459
same cut, same length, same fabric.
612
00:32:04,609 --> 00:32:06,399
There's nothing super individual about it.
613
00:32:06,399 --> 00:32:07,729
And it's also super coded.
614
00:32:07,729 --> 00:32:08,959
It's heavy with messaging.
615
00:32:08,959 --> 00:32:14,349
But then when you throw on a graphic tee
or like you embroider that skirt, it is a
616
00:32:14,349 --> 00:32:16,359
rebellion I'm not gonna follow that code.
617
00:32:16,539 --> 00:32:18,409
I'm gonna take, it apart.
618
00:32:18,469 --> 00:32:23,719
And in Japan, you actually see
this Sukeban culture come out.
619
00:32:24,689 --> 00:32:27,319
which literally stands
for Delinquent Girl.
620
00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:31,369
And it's a movement of these girl
gangs in the sixties and seventies.
621
00:32:31,429 --> 00:32:36,949
And their whole premise is to defy
gender roles in a patriarchal society.
622
00:32:36,949 --> 00:32:41,709
And they wanna like, you know, not
conform to authority and a key part of
623
00:32:41,709 --> 00:32:44,469
their defining uniform is pleated skirts.
624
00:32:44,469 --> 00:32:48,219
They, you know, let's not romanticize
it, there was violence attached
625
00:32:48,219 --> 00:32:49,719
to, to what this culture was.
626
00:32:50,029 --> 00:32:52,459
But it was really just supposed
to be this message of , we're
627
00:32:52,459 --> 00:32:53,959
not gonna be underestimated.
628
00:32:53,959 --> 00:32:57,499
And I think it's really interesting
that one of the visual ways that
629
00:32:57,499 --> 00:33:00,559
they conveyed that message was, we're
gonna take something that you have
630
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:02,809
institutionalized and break it apart.
631
00:33:02,809 --> 00:33:03,439
Chandler: that's very cool.
632
00:33:03,439 --> 00:33:07,189
It's funny, this is kind of silly, but
it makes me think of Gossip Girl and
633
00:33:07,189 --> 00:33:13,129
how Serena and Blair both wear those
school girl uniforms, but how they very
634
00:33:13,129 --> 00:33:18,649
much styled Serena to basically draw
attention away from the pleated skirt and
635
00:33:18,649 --> 00:33:20,479
have all these other elements going on.
636
00:33:20,479 --> 00:33:22,789
And, you know, they would
shorten her skirt and she would
637
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:24,289
layer things on top of it.
638
00:33:24,289 --> 00:33:26,539
And kind of add all
these like boho elements,
639
00:33:26,539 --> 00:33:30,679
and then Blair, who buys into this
idea of being proper and likes to be
640
00:33:30,679 --> 00:33:34,819
structured and likes to follow the
rules, she kind of wears her skirt
641
00:33:34,819 --> 00:33:39,619
as intended and adds, you know, her
headbands and the jewelry and all these
642
00:33:39,619 --> 00:33:43,549
other elements, but she's not like
subverting attention away from that skirt.
643
00:33:43,729 --> 00:33:47,969
So I do think it's interesting
that both of those elements are
644
00:33:47,969 --> 00:33:50,519
in play but used so differently.
645
00:33:50,619 --> 00:33:52,749
It just reminded me when
you're talking about Sukeban.
646
00:33:52,749 --> 00:33:53,829
Yoana: I think that's perfect.
647
00:33:53,829 --> 00:33:58,179
I mean, the way that I'm thinking about
relevance is like one you want to buy
648
00:33:58,179 --> 00:34:00,129
into what that feeling of being proper is.
649
00:34:00,129 --> 00:34:04,689
Or two, you actually kind of want to
make a signal that you don't agree with
650
00:34:04,689 --> 00:34:07,289
it and, you're reverting against it
651
00:34:07,289 --> 00:34:09,569
Serena and Blair are the perfect example.
652
00:34:09,569 --> 00:34:11,399
They embody that in a way.
653
00:34:11,459 --> 00:34:15,599
Like I think they embody why these
pleats are relevant and the messaging
654
00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:17,189
that they send are totally different.
655
00:34:17,189 --> 00:34:18,389
That's such a good comparison.
656
00:34:18,399 --> 00:34:20,333
Chan, I need to rewatch Gossip Girl.
657
00:34:20,449 --> 00:34:22,909
Uh, it's been way too long.
658
00:34:22,909 --> 00:34:23,629
Wow.
659
00:34:23,629 --> 00:34:24,439
Yeah, I mean.
660
00:34:24,839 --> 00:34:28,634
I, I feel like that just honestly ties it
up for me, that that just did it so well.
661
00:34:28,664 --> 00:34:30,254
you kind of just see
this across the board.
662
00:34:30,304 --> 00:34:35,824
There's these new Miu Miu skirts that
are $2,000 and have boxer waistbands.
663
00:34:35,854 --> 00:34:38,134
Super interesting to look at those.
664
00:34:38,354 --> 00:34:40,874
You definitely wouldn't like
style that the same way that Blair
665
00:34:40,874 --> 00:34:42,674
would style a skirt to your point.
666
00:34:42,744 --> 00:34:43,944
But it's, it's neat.
667
00:34:43,974 --> 00:34:48,044
It's like I know what references the
signals and I'm not gonna do that.
668
00:34:48,134 --> 00:34:52,754
So that's kind how I thought
about how they're coming to life.
669
00:34:52,754 --> 00:34:55,168
Chandler: It's interesting
because these garments so clearly
670
00:34:55,168 --> 00:34:58,828
convey something like the Miu Miu
skirt with the boxer waistband.
671
00:34:58,828 --> 00:35:01,648
You're buying into the idea of the
pleat, but you're subverting it.
672
00:35:01,888 --> 00:35:05,968
then there's the Thom Browne where
the pleat is being used to convey
673
00:35:05,968 --> 00:35:07,918
something very, just straightforward.
674
00:35:07,918 --> 00:35:11,398
And both are very cool and one is
kind of more of a street wear vibe.
675
00:35:11,398 --> 00:35:15,568
And it's just interesting that it's
remained relevant, both straightforward,
676
00:35:15,568 --> 00:35:17,128
but then also with the subversion.
677
00:35:17,158 --> 00:35:20,498
Because I feel like there's some things
in fashion that we only really see
678
00:35:20,498 --> 00:35:22,328
the subversion that remains relevant.
679
00:35:22,328 --> 00:35:24,338
But with pleats, it's in both ways.
680
00:35:24,338 --> 00:35:25,508
Yoana: It's almost negotiation.
681
00:35:25,838 --> 00:35:26,438
way do you wanna go?
682
00:35:26,558 --> 00:35:26,901
Chandler: Yeah.
683
00:35:26,901 --> 00:35:27,094
Yoana: Yeah.
684
00:35:27,099 --> 00:35:27,819
Chandler: Pick your pleat.
685
00:35:28,244 --> 00:35:29,894
Yoana: Pick your pleat,
pick your messaging.
686
00:35:30,294 --> 00:35:31,053
Chandler: Yeah, it's very cool
687
00:35:31,145 --> 00:35:34,190
Yoana: Um, Before we wrap though
there's also one other thing I wanna
688
00:35:34,250 --> 00:35:38,990
maybe touch on a little bit, and
that's men and how pleats have evolved.
689
00:35:38,990 --> 00:35:42,350
I'm not a film critic or a men's
wear historian, but , as I was doing
690
00:35:42,350 --> 00:35:47,510
this, one thing that kept coming up
is kind of how the pleat has evolved
691
00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:49,610
in how it's seen in men's wear.
692
00:35:49,610 --> 00:35:51,140
And I think there's a
lot more we could do.
693
00:35:51,140 --> 00:35:54,170
There's a whole episode that we
could do on men's trousers, probably
694
00:35:54,170 --> 00:35:57,290
actually not one, but like six
months series if you wanted to.
695
00:35:57,860 --> 00:36:03,510
But you talked about how the Hakama
was this very hyper-masculine in a way.
696
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:04,230
garment.
697
00:36:04,340 --> 00:36:06,290
It carries national pride.
698
00:36:06,290 --> 00:36:08,300
It's not delicate in
any way, shape or form.
699
00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:14,600
And in the 20th century I feel like that
goes back and then it finds a balance.
700
00:36:14,650 --> 00:36:16,060
At least in popular culture.
701
00:36:16,060 --> 00:36:20,396
Cause there was this huge trend
at Oxford with boxy trousers.
702
00:36:20,456 --> 00:36:23,816
They were very big not slim at all.
703
00:36:23,816 --> 00:36:27,696
But then in the sixties and seventies,
there's like a massive trend to
704
00:36:27,696 --> 00:36:29,826
skinny massive trend to bell bottoms.
705
00:36:29,826 --> 00:36:34,076
Obviously music was influencing that and
almost wearing a pleat was like fussy.
706
00:36:34,076 --> 00:36:38,600
Like it was like old fashioned,
literally like dad uniform in a way.
707
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,540
And then.
708
00:36:39,540 --> 00:36:44,250
There's this film called American
Gigolo, which came out in 1980.
709
00:36:44,650 --> 00:36:49,840
And Giorgio Armani dresses Richard
Gere in it, and it's in pleated
710
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,490
trousers, but the jacket is more
unstructured, it's not as slim of a fit.
711
00:36:55,490 --> 00:36:59,540
There's like fluidity and drape and
it's kind of like a turning point where
712
00:36:59,540 --> 00:37:04,160
the suit moved from being something
that was reverted against 'cause it
713
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,670
was very like, dad uniform, old dated.
714
00:37:06,670 --> 00:37:10,120
And now it's relaxed and kind
of like sensual in a way.
715
00:37:10,196 --> 00:37:10,616
Chandler: Mm-hmm.
716
00:37:10,972 --> 00:37:11,442
Yoana: yeah
717
00:37:11,445 --> 00:37:11,985
Chandler: it's very cool.
718
00:37:11,985 --> 00:37:16,065
Also women now wear men's trousers
through kind of the male lens.
719
00:37:16,065 --> 00:37:19,545
What was the Aritzia pants that
everyone was wearing that was pleated
720
00:37:19,545 --> 00:37:20,415
Yoana: I never bought it.
721
00:37:20,415 --> 00:37:22,725
Chandler: Yeah, it was called
like the easy pant or something.
722
00:37:22,755 --> 00:37:23,175
But there
723
00:37:23,230 --> 00:37:24,550
Yoana: it was the easy pant.
724
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:25,600
Chandler: Yeah, the easy pant.
725
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,740
Like that was a pleated trouser
and so many people had that pant.
726
00:37:28,740 --> 00:37:32,130
You know, men's wear has become
increasingly popular in the women's space.
727
00:37:32,130 --> 00:37:35,160
But I think it's kind of, to your
point, that subversion again of
728
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,720
like a woman wearing the pleated
729
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:38,610
trouser, is a very different vibe.
730
00:37:38,610 --> 00:37:41,830
And even now the pleated trouser
is kind of back like, I think it's
731
00:37:41,830 --> 00:37:44,920
a different silhouette maybe and
maybe they're a little bit wider.
732
00:37:44,970 --> 00:37:48,130
It's kind of the nineties style
again, but they've come back and
733
00:37:48,130 --> 00:37:49,810
messaging is not the same at all.
734
00:37:49,810 --> 00:37:54,310
And they are this cool, relaxed
vibe yet still have the pleat.
735
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:57,880
And it's kind of cyclical with those, I
feel like, because they're such a staple,
736
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,940
but it's just funny that those do kind
of convey something different, at least
737
00:38:02,940 --> 00:38:06,967
in this current cultural moment than
a lot of the other pleats that we see.
738
00:38:07,073 --> 00:38:07,323
Yoana: Yeah.
739
00:38:07,323 --> 00:38:13,003
Because I wouldn't say, I mean, maybe
if you're wearing a pleated skirt in
740
00:38:13,003 --> 00:38:17,663
the old money kind of context way with
a, a Ralph Lauren Polo or something.
741
00:38:17,663 --> 00:38:20,183
it might get coded as
fussy by some people.
742
00:38:20,183 --> 00:38:22,673
I don't think you would see
someone wearing a trouser pant
743
00:38:22,673 --> 00:38:24,233
and be like, oh, that's fussy.
744
00:38:24,233 --> 00:38:29,033
But I feel like in the 1960s and
the seventies, there was like a 20
745
00:38:29,033 --> 00:38:32,123
year or so period where they were
like, oh, we're not doing that.
746
00:38:32,123 --> 00:38:33,277
And now it's kind of back.
747
00:38:33,277 --> 00:38:34,117
I think it'll stay.
748
00:38:34,117 --> 00:38:34,627
I hope so.
749
00:38:34,627 --> 00:38:35,437
I love trousers.
750
00:38:35,437 --> 00:38:36,157
I'm a pants girl.
751
00:38:36,157 --> 00:38:38,740
You know, I don't own skirts at all.
752
00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:40,690
Um, but yeah.
753
00:38:40,690 --> 00:38:42,780
Chandler: Yeah, so much of
it's in the styling too.
754
00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:46,530
I feel like I could make a trouser
look fussy if I tried, but I could also
755
00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:48,660
make it look pretty cool and relaxed.
756
00:38:48,895 --> 00:38:51,115
But that's kind of to the
point of they're a staple.
757
00:38:51,145 --> 00:38:54,205
they're probably gonna last in your
closet a pretty long time, and it's
758
00:38:54,205 --> 00:38:56,005
just gonna depend how you style them.
759
00:38:56,005 --> 00:38:59,365
Yoana: Yeah, I, I also think the cool
thing about why they can live in your
760
00:38:59,365 --> 00:39:03,415
closet for so long is it depends on where
you're going or who you're with or if you
761
00:39:03,415 --> 00:39:07,385
wanna dress like a certain occasion, but
there's such a spectrum across it that
762
00:39:07,385 --> 00:39:12,065
you can play on and like the messaging
that it sends which is super neat
763
00:39:12,729 --> 00:39:16,966
.
Chandler: So I think brings us
to how we feel about pleats.
764
00:39:16,966 --> 00:39:20,405
And I know you just said you
don't own any pleated skirts, are
765
00:39:20,486 --> 00:39:21,776
those pleats on your collar today?
766
00:39:21,776 --> 00:39:22,766
They kind of look like it.
767
00:39:22,766 --> 00:39:24,446
Yoana: Yeah, they are pleats on my collar.
768
00:39:24,549 --> 00:39:25,089
There you go.
769
00:39:25,089 --> 00:39:28,309
My favorite pleated thing though,
I don't know how to explain it.
770
00:39:28,309 --> 00:39:32,059
We went on our honeymoon in New
Zealand and of course the weather
771
00:39:32,059 --> 00:39:36,065
was bad, so I just looked for an
opportunity to shop, twist my arm.
772
00:39:36,065 --> 00:39:39,155
And there's this boutique that in the
back had, some vintage garments from
773
00:39:39,155 --> 00:39:41,945
people in Arrowtown that are selling them.
774
00:39:41,945 --> 00:39:45,065
But the actual store was a Seletti
concept store, which is really neat.
775
00:39:45,065 --> 00:39:46,985
But the back was just vintage garments.
776
00:39:46,985 --> 00:39:51,875
And I found this dead stock vintage
three piece set and the back of it was
777
00:39:51,875 --> 00:39:53,825
pleated and the, the pant was pleated.
778
00:39:53,825 --> 00:39:57,065
and it had one single pleat, and
then the back kind of like opened up.
779
00:39:57,065 --> 00:39:59,285
I'll throw a photo, but, uh I love it.
780
00:39:59,285 --> 00:40:02,370
It's a cool outfit and
it's like a military green.
781
00:40:02,370 --> 00:40:05,400
So I think it maybe like, plays
across a lot of the messaging
782
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,810
that we're talking about here.
783
00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:07,230
Chandler: Yeah.
784
00:40:07,230 --> 00:40:08,730
So when do you reach for it?
785
00:40:08,820 --> 00:40:10,440
Like what vibe are you trying to give?
786
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:11,315
What mood are you in?
787
00:40:11,715 --> 00:40:12,585
Yoana: It's so easy.
788
00:40:12,635 --> 00:40:14,885
But it still feels really
cool and elegant to me.
789
00:40:14,885 --> 00:40:19,095
It just looks like I didn't try and
we talked about this a little bit with
790
00:40:19,095 --> 00:40:23,465
the other, plissé episode, but I'm
probably more leaning into wearing
791
00:40:23,465 --> 00:40:28,325
a more structured pleat and then
tagging on a more either like masculine
792
00:40:28,325 --> 00:40:31,745
element to it or a more street style.
793
00:40:31,745 --> 00:40:32,615
That's when I do it.
794
00:40:32,715 --> 00:40:34,785
'Cause I think I like to
play with that a little bit.
795
00:40:34,785 --> 00:40:35,205
But
796
00:40:35,205 --> 00:40:35,770
Chandler: That's cool.
797
00:40:36,013 --> 00:40:36,373
Yoana: yeah.
798
00:40:36,463 --> 00:40:37,063
How about you?
799
00:40:37,263 --> 00:40:38,443
What are you reaching for.
800
00:40:38,643 --> 00:40:42,513
Chandler: So I feel like the most
obviously pleated thing I've worn
801
00:40:42,513 --> 00:40:46,845
was actually my wedding dress, which
is interesting cause so much of what
802
00:40:46,850 --> 00:40:50,625
we were talking about, especially
with the Japanese context, is
803
00:40:50,655 --> 00:40:52,515
that these were worn ceremonially.
804
00:40:52,515 --> 00:40:55,812
And so I think it's funny that most
ceremonial thing I'll probably ever
805
00:40:55,812 --> 00:41:01,542
do in my life, I chose a pleat I
think part of why I wanted a garment
806
00:41:01,542 --> 00:41:07,572
that was formal, but then also kind
of conveyed how seriously I was
807
00:41:07,572 --> 00:41:10,422
taking my wedding slash marriage.
808
00:41:11,172 --> 00:41:12,912
But I still wanted it to be cool.
809
00:41:12,912 --> 00:41:17,112
So my gown was Lela Rose, it
originally actually had sleeves.
810
00:41:17,112 --> 00:41:21,712
So there's princess seams that
then open into what I would
811
00:41:21,712 --> 00:41:23,902
think are pretty much box pleats.
812
00:41:23,972 --> 00:41:26,462
And it obviously helps
build a lot of shape.
813
00:41:26,492 --> 00:41:29,522
It's a little bit drop waist,
but then the skirt was very full.
814
00:41:29,762 --> 00:41:33,482
And I think part of how the skirt became
so full was that these box pleats were
815
00:41:33,632 --> 00:41:35,702
adding volume as we love that they do.
816
00:41:36,512 --> 00:41:41,372
and yeah, I just love that it had all this
detail, but still felt very put together.
817
00:41:41,572 --> 00:41:46,791
I have a top from Reformation,
but it's these pleats that are box
818
00:41:46,852 --> 00:41:50,528
pleats and open up into a peplum.
819
00:41:51,138 --> 00:41:55,078
And peplum, I feel like is back,
but in a different way because
820
00:41:55,078 --> 00:41:59,488
a lot of the peplum tops I see
are done with pleats these days.
821
00:41:59,635 --> 00:42:02,565
I know Sezane is doing one this
season that's micro pleats,
822
00:42:02,565 --> 00:42:03,674
that's still that peplum.
823
00:42:03,674 --> 00:42:06,374
And I think it's kind of combining
that like old money that we've been
824
00:42:06,374 --> 00:42:10,424
talking about with that 2000 silhouette,
which I think is really interesting.
825
00:42:10,564 --> 00:42:13,624
I reach for that top and I wanna look
really put together, but still cool.
826
00:42:13,624 --> 00:42:16,324
I wouldn't call it edgy, but
I would say it's very current.
827
00:42:16,324 --> 00:42:18,994
So it's not your average night out,
maybe a little bit nicer than that.
828
00:42:19,354 --> 00:42:20,314
But yeah, I, I love it.
829
00:42:20,324 --> 00:42:23,574
I wouldn't say it feels old money to me,
but it does feel like leaning leaning
830
00:42:23,574 --> 00:42:25,314
into kind of that more polished vibe.
831
00:42:25,314 --> 00:42:25,704
Yoana: Yeah.
832
00:42:25,704 --> 00:42:28,634
There's so many different ways
to, whatever message you want to
833
00:42:28,634 --> 00:42:29,889
give off when you leave the house.
834
00:42:30,089 --> 00:42:33,059
I think I probably yeah, lean into
maybe that edge a little bit more.
835
00:42:33,059 --> 00:42:34,709
I have fun playing with that.
836
00:42:34,709 --> 00:42:39,459
But I think going back to your dress,
I'm gonna tie the thread between
837
00:42:39,459 --> 00:42:42,849
both of our episodes because I feel
like I'm gonna say we didn't do this
838
00:42:42,849 --> 00:42:45,459
intentionally, like 600 times and
people are gonna be like, really?
839
00:42:45,459 --> 00:42:46,749
And I'm gonna be like,
no, I swear we didn't.
840
00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:47,719
'Cause we didn't.
841
00:42:47,989 --> 00:42:52,549
But I think when we decided to do
pleats and then we split the episodes
842
00:42:52,549 --> 00:42:57,139
and then one of the most, like the
ceremonial history that's tied to these
843
00:42:57,139 --> 00:43:00,199
structural pleats like comes to life
in your wedding, which is beautiful.
844
00:43:00,319 --> 00:43:03,766
And then we talk about, in our other
episode, in the plissé episode, how, like
845
00:43:03,766 --> 00:43:07,206
it's all about conforming to your body
and, you coming to life in the garment
846
00:43:07,206 --> 00:43:11,468
and the garment being almost like an
accessory and it accentuating the person.
847
00:43:11,468 --> 00:43:15,578
And you wore, Danielle Frankel
then and that gown was so
848
00:43:15,578 --> 00:43:17,558
different from your wedding gown.
849
00:43:17,708 --> 00:43:19,578
The, your second, your reception, dress.
850
00:43:19,763 --> 00:43:22,973
And I think it's really neat how we
split this episode into two ways.
851
00:43:22,973 --> 00:43:26,273
Your box, structural pleats that
kind of come across more ceremonially
852
00:43:26,273 --> 00:43:29,233
convey different messaging and
then you see, plissé, and it's a
853
00:43:29,233 --> 00:43:34,243
lot more of free flowing and still
really heavy on the technical craft,
854
00:43:34,243 --> 00:43:35,593
but the messaging is different.
855
00:43:35,593 --> 00:43:39,343
And then when we kind of talk about how it
makes us feel when you conveyed, how your
856
00:43:39,343 --> 00:43:43,383
wedding gown from Lela Rose made you feel
versus how Danielle Frankel made you feel.
857
00:43:43,583 --> 00:43:47,338
They're super interesting feelings, but
they both are like heavily dependent
858
00:43:47,338 --> 00:43:50,963
on how the pleat influenced that
garment, which is I think so cool.
859
00:43:51,163 --> 00:43:51,643
I don't know.
860
00:43:51,918 --> 00:43:52,968
Chandler: it is funny, like how
861
00:43:53,173 --> 00:43:54,283
Yoana: Me analyzing you.
862
00:43:54,483 --> 00:43:55,563
Chandler: but you're kind of right.
863
00:43:55,563 --> 00:43:59,493
I was going for a certain, you know,
feeling with both garments and I feel
864
00:43:59,493 --> 00:44:03,863
like the pleats allowed me to do that
while both still being very flattering.
865
00:44:03,863 --> 00:44:06,433
I think that's one of my favorite
things about pleats is they can be
866
00:44:06,433 --> 00:44:11,203
so flattering and just really convey
a lot of emotion in a garment.
867
00:44:11,403 --> 00:44:11,673
Yoana: Yeah,
868
00:44:11,708 --> 00:44:13,028
Chandler: I need more pleated things.
869
00:44:13,228 --> 00:44:15,698
Yoana: So do I. This is a
good excuse to go shopping.
870
00:44:15,898 --> 00:44:16,588
But yeah.
871
00:44:16,588 --> 00:44:17,963
Well thanks for tuning in.
872
00:44:18,363 --> 00:44:19,143
Chandler: Yeah.
873
00:44:19,143 --> 00:44:20,553
We'll catch you next time.
874
00:44:20,613 --> 00:44:21,693
Have fun getting dressed.
875
00:44:21,693 --> 00:44:24,243
Yoana: Always have fun getting
dressed, get crazy in your closet.
876
00:44:24,493 --> 00:44:28,453
If you wanna see some guides that we put
together for pleats, if you wanna look
877
00:44:28,453 --> 00:44:32,648
at the show notes, check the details
in the caption and we'll be back soon.
878
00:44:33,048 --> 00:44:33,398
Chandler: Alright…love you!.
879
00:44:33,398 --> 00:44:33,753
Yoana: I love you.
880
00:44:35,099 --> 00:44:36,113
That wasn't articulate,
881
00:44:36,113 --> 00:44:36,923
Chandler: hush.
882
00:44:36,923 --> 00:44:37,778
Gimme two seconds.
883
00:44:38,178 --> 00:44:39,518
Yoana: maybe I'm gonna eat a cracker.
884
00:44:39,518 --> 00:44:40,218
Chandler: No barking.
885
00:44:40,218 --> 00:44:41,598
Yoana: Did that make any sense to you?
886
00:44:41,998 --> 00:44:42,628
Chandler: It did.
887
00:44:42,628 --> 00:44:43,138
Yoana: Sorry.
888
00:44:43,237 --> 00:44:43,777
Chandler: Moosey, no,
889
00:44:43,828 --> 00:44:44,158
Yoana: Okay.
890
00:44:44,158 --> 00:44:45,958
I don't have any cherry tomato flakes.
891
00:44:45,958 --> 00:44:47,308
I would move up a
little bit if I were you.
892
00:44:47,308 --> 00:44:48,308
Yeah, yeah.
893
00:44:48,728 --> 00:44:49,088
Mm.
894
00:44:49,088 --> 00:44:50,233
Chandler: I feel like
it's like worse when I'm
895
00:44:50,483 --> 00:44:52,373
Yoana: It's almost like this way
896
00:44:52,473 --> 00:44:53,703
I'm actually happy we took a break.
897
00:44:53,703 --> 00:44:54,423
I'm alive.
898
00:44:54,523 --> 00:44:54,918
Are you having fun?
899
00:44:55,318 --> 00:44:55,538
Chandler: Yes.
900
00:44:55,938 --> 00:44:56,238
Okay.
901
00:44:57,622 --> 00:44:59,122
Yoana: I think I needed a tomato.
902
00:44:59,522 --> 00:45:00,932
I was starting to see myself fade.
903
00:45:00,932 --> 00:45:03,332
Oh my God, I need to
eat before we do these.
904
00:45:03,392 --> 00:45:04,592
A hundred percent always.