Fisherman Sweaters: From Drowned Sailor Myths To Jean Paul Gaultier [Ep:10]

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Chandler: Hello, welcome
back to Sarcurious
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Yoana: Welcome back to Sarcurious
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Chandler: Here we are to talk
about fisherman sweaters.
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Yoana: It's been raining for like
three days now, and I've seen probably
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15 people wear these on campus.
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I'm not even kidding.
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Chandler: There you go.
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Well, that doesn't surprise me, and
we'll kinda get into why, but I think
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I'm just gonna hop us in 'cause I'm
gonna paint you a little picture to start
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Yoana: Let's do it
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Chandler: All right.
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So picture this, the Aran Islands,
which are three slivers of rock off
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the west coast of Ireland sometime
around the turn of the last century.
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The Atlantic here takes men every year,
and one morning it gives one back.
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A body washes ashore, and he's been in
the water so long that his own family
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can't recognize his face, but they know
exactly who he is because of his sweater.
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Because on these islands, so the
story goes, every family knit its
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own secret pattern into their men's
sweaters, a code in cable knit.
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So even when the sea took everything else,
the stitches could still reveal which
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family had lost a son and bring him home.
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I want you to hold onto that image because
it's one of the most beautiful stories
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in fashion history, and I'm about to
tell you it's almost certainly a lie.
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So that's really what this
whole episode is about.
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I think almost everything that we think
we know about the fisherman's sweater,
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all the romantic stuff, the folklore, the
bring him home, all of that was invented.
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some of it shockingly recently, and
basically in an effort to sell sweaters.
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It's just really good marketing.
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But invented doesn't mean it's worthless.
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I think some of the best
traditions in fashion are barely
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a hundred years old, which is
basically the fisherman's sweater.
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So the question that I kind of
want to chase throughout this whole
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episode is, where does the sweater
end and the myth begin and vice versa?
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But before I can kind of tell you
the ending of the drowned fisherman
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story, I think we need to define what
a fisherman's sweater actually is.
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So a fisherman's sweater, similarly to
the one I'm wearing today, is a heavy,
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tightly knit wool pullover that started
as workwear for the fishing communities of
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the British Isles and the North Atlantic.
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It's pure function, so it's dense,
hardworking wool knit at a tight gauge
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to hold heat and to shed weather
when you're out at sea all day.
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And even the patterning, which they
have these raised cables and textured
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stitches, started as kind of a
practical feature to add additional
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warmth before it was ever decorative.
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And fisherman's sweater is actually
an umbrella term, so we'll talk about
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three main ones today, which are kind
of the biggest amongst the tradition,
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which are the gansey, which is the plain
workhorse of the British fishing fleets.
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the aran, which is the heavily
cabled cream sweater that this
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sweater is kind of reminiscent of.
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So those come from the
islands off western Ireland.
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And then the fair isle, which is a
colorful banded knit from up in Scotland.
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So quick obligatory etymology.
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Gansey can also be spelled Guernsey,
and it takes its name from the Channel
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Islands of Guernsey and Jersey, which ran
a knitting export industry as far back
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as the late 1400s, so they have a long
tradition of knitting there And there's
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also a competing theory that the word
actually descends from Old Norse, from
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the word garn, which means yarn, which
would give it kind of a Viking thread as
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opposed to being named for the islands.
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So that's kind of where Gansey comes from.
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Okay, so I'll take us back to
our drowned fisherman myth.
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So that drowned fisherman identified
by his family's secret pattern, the
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truth is that there's no historical
evidence that Aran families had
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uniquely identifying patterns or that
anyone was ever identified this way.
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We can tell where that myth comes from.
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It's very pervasive.
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If you were to go and buy an Aran sweater
in the part of the world where they're
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from, you would hear this story told.
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It's kind of the bread and
butter of the industry up there.
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But we can trace back where the
myth comes from, which is a 1904
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play by the Irish playwright J.M.
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Synge called Riders to the Sea.
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The play is a tragedy.
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It's set in the Aran Islands, and in
it, a drowned man is identified by
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his sister, but not by a clan pattern.
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So she recognizes a pair of
socks that she'd knit him because
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she dropped a few stitches.
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So the quote is, " It's the second
of the third pair I knitted, and
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I put up three score stitches,
and I dropped four of them."
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So it's plain knitted socks, and it's
a knitting mistake that she's able to
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identify him by, not some, like, hidden
family crest within the cable knit.
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But the play was very popular
and very sad, and people's
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imaginations kind of ran with it.
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And then decades later, it was
supercharged by this book called
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The Sacred History of Knitting,
which basically invented a whole
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symbolic language for stitches.
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And historians pretty much consider it
fabricated, that planted the myth even
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more, and then tourism finished the job.
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So to this day, as I mentioned, shops
on the Aran Islands will sell you a
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register of official clan patterns.
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they have, like, nailed out each clan,
where the pattern is, the whole nine.
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So you'll kind of hear the Aran
sweater presented like it's
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this ancient Celtic tradition.
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So I'm curious how old you think
the oldest surviving one actually is
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Yoana: can we just,
like, take one step back?
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How do those three all
connect with one another?
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Chandler: Yeah, so the Fair Isle and the
Aran loosely descend from the Gansey.
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We'll get into kind of how they
all came to be, but I would say the
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Gansey is definitely the oldest.
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So they're all from the same part
of the world, that North Atlantic,
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but not the exact same islands, but
they all kind of descend from that
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seafaring fisherman, tradition.
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So when you think fisherman sweater,
the one that's the most iconic,
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you're probably thinking the Aran
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Yoana: Okay.
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your question is, how old is the Aran?
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Chandler: Yeah.
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How old do you think the
oldest Aran sweater is?
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Yoana: I'm gonna go, like, 1830s
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Chandler: So the oldest one that
we know of is from the early 1900s.
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So the cable cream Aran is essentially a
20th century invention that was developed
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as a cottage industry to bring money to
these economically disadvantaged islands.
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So the area we're talking about,
very poor, and this was a great
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cottage industry for people to make
money, knitting these sweaters.
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And so they developed it as an
industry that would sell well, which
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is where we get all these myths.
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Yoana: I mean, it's a
great marketing ploy,
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Chandler: Yes.
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And it's very pervasive.
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For this one I had to really dive into
the, you know, peer-reviewed sources
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because if you read any knitting blog
that's behind somebody who's selling these
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sweaters, they're gonna sell this myth.
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So the first published Aran pattern
didn't appear until the 1940s, and
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then Vogue ran one in 1956, which
is when the craze really took off.
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so this ancient garment
is younger than the car.
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And that, again, is kind of the most
famous fisherman's sweater in the
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world, and it's also the youngest, and
its most beautiful story is a myth.
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So that raises the obvious
question, which is, if that's
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the myth, what's the real thing?
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And for that, we have to leave
behind the Aran and go back to its
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ancestor, which is the earliest
and plainest, which is the Gansey.
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So before the cabled cozy Aran that
your brain kind of jumps to when you
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think fisherman's sweater, there was
the Gansey, which is the plain one,
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the original, and really a workhorse.
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So in Cornwall, they call it a knit frock,
and there's no romance here, no myth.
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It's just a sweater that was
specifically manufactured to suit
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men in these working conditions.
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The plain knitted Guernsey is genuinely
old, but the richly patterned Gansey that
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we see today is really a Victorian thing.
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So it developed around, like,
mid-1800s up through World War II.
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And every detail that we see on
these is a solution to the sea.
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So it's knit seamlessly in the round,
which means there's no side seams
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because the seam's a weak point where
water would get in or it would chafe
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while you're hauling nets all day.
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And then it's knit super, super tightly
so that it's basically windproof,
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and it's very water-resistant.
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That dense gauge makes it so the
water beads up on the surface
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rather than soaking right through.
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And it was almost always a deep navy
blue because indigo was cheap and it
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was very colorfast, so it wouldn't bleed
when it was in the sun or in saltwater.
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That dark shade really helped hide
fish guts, oil, tar, everything
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you'd run into as a fisherman.
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And the patterning, so all those kind
of details on it, would sit across the
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chest and shoulders, while the lower
body was usually left plain because
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it would be tucked into the trousers
and because plain knits up faster,
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so you could make more sweaters.
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And then the highest wear parts, which
would be the cuffs, could be unpicked
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and reknit when they wore through.
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So it was made to be able to be repaired.
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-
Yoana: so like,, yes, it's
manufactured, the more kind of emotional
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story, but it is still a craft.
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The craft of creating the sweater still
involves human work and human labor.
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But you're saying that the more emotional
part that we've attached to like the
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meaning of the sweater isn't as real
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Chandler: Well, so I think, you know,
knitting is not something that was
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unique to any one part of the world.
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A lot of different places,
especially in this time period,
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were highly skilled at knitting.
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And so I think basically
these myths developed as a
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way to set themselves apart.
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But yeah, this is still a highly
specialized skill, and one that could be
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fairly lucrative, which I think is why
it was such a common craft in that area.
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But yeah, I mean, the reality
behind them is still that, yeah,
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this was a specialized craft.
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And I do think even though a lot
of the myths are not true, there
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is a lot of meaning here, and
we'll get to kind of why that is.
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But the patterning, so that's the
kind of the knit and purl texture of
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those ropes, the zigzags, diamonds,
waves, that are all on the gansey.
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At the most basic level, all that raised
texture just packs the stitches denser
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and thicker, which means extra warmth.
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And that would all be, again, across the
chest and the shoulders, which is where
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you need the most additional warmth.
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So it's all form following
function over and over.
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To kind of give you the
differentiation, those, like, super
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chunky raised cables are on the Aran.
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The gansey's gonna have texture
still, but it's less texture than you
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would think of, like, with an Aran.
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So there's this idea that the
patterns were kind of a language.
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There's this talk about motifs
that represented ropes, nets, the
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water, the weather, the bones of the
herring fish that they were fishing.
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So the sweater kind of becomes a wearable
record of the sea itself, and whether
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every knitter, like, consciously was
thinking of that imagery is debatable.
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But regardless, the imagery's real,
and it's beautiful, and I think that's
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part of why these entered high fashion.
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You could say it was all function
or you could say that they were
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showing waves and nets and whatnot.
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Regardless, it's beautiful, so I don't
know if it's even all that relevant.
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Yoana: The herring could be a
red herring in a way, kind of
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Chandler: Yes.
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If there was actual imagery behind
these versus just the function.
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But speaking of herring, that
takes us to the herring girls.
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that wasn't planned so how did
these patterns spread up and down
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hundreds of miles of coastline?
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It's a story about women.
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So the British herring fishery boomed
from about 1850 to 1930, and it moved.
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so the fleet followed the herring
shoals down the coast through the
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season from Shetland to the Orkneys
in the north all the way down
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to Great Yarmouth in the south.
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And following the fleet was an army
of women who were known as the herring
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girls, and their job was not glamorous.
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It was to gut, salt, and pack the
catch, which was brutal, cold, wet
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work, standing at the barrels for hours.
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But it was also relatively well-paid,
and it was mobile, so they would
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follow the fishing wherever it was.
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And these women traveled port to port
season after season, and in every
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spare moment on the boats, the docks,
even while walking, they knitted.
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So because they were constantly
on the move, meeting knitters
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from every other fishing town, it
became kind of a living network of
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trading patterns and techniques.
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So a motif from Scotland could end up in
Yorkshire, a Dutch influence could show
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up in the Yorkshire Dales, and the herring
girls basically wove the whole coast
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together one stitch pattern at a time.
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There's localized places where
patterns are from, but all of
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these are being intermixed.
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And it's, you know, it's
partially what looks good.
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It's also what knits up quickly
while still looking intricate.
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It's what's functional.
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It's all of that.
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So that's kind of how these patterns
were spreading and who was actually
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making these sweaters, in addition to
women back in, you know, the towns,
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that stayed in the towns back home.
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So that's kind of the real
original fisherman sweater.
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It's functional, endlessly repairable.
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It's a wool uniform, and the patterns
are regional, spread by a mobile network
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of women, and that's kind of the real
sweater underneath all the mythology.
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Yoana: It's still beautiful though.
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Like, it's kind of a melting
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pot of a sweater in a way
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Chandler: Yes.
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Well, and there's different
ones that develop.
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We've already talked about the gansey,
the Aran, and so now we're gonna
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move on to the Fair Isle, which could
potentially be some people's favorites.
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It's definitely… It's the colorful one.
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So if you think of, Christmas sweaters,
that's kind of what these look like.
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But we're gonna get back into
some mythology with the Fair Isle.
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So our next fisherman's sweater
takes us back up north, and
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it starts with a shipwreck.
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So Fair Isle is a tiny remote island
between Orkney and Shetland, and it gives
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00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,665
its name to that colorful multi-banded
knitting that you definitely know, even
247
00:13:01,665 --> 00:13:03,049
if you don't know that's the name for it.
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00:13:03,249 --> 00:13:05,782
So think of the pattern
yolk on a Christmas sweater.
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The yolk's this part up here.
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00:13:07,547 --> 00:13:11,414
that stranded two colors per
row style, that's Fair Isle.
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00:13:11,614 --> 00:13:15,026
And the function is hiding
inside the decoration.
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00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:20,126
So that two stranded two color per row
style, basically how they do it is you're
253
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carrying two colors across every row.
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00:13:22,395 --> 00:13:25,107
So the color you're not
using floats beneath.
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00:13:25,307 --> 00:13:29,225
So basically, it ends up having
double thickness, which makes
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00:13:29,237 --> 00:13:31,603
the Fair Isle very, very warm.
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00:13:31,857 --> 00:13:33,272
So it's kind of the same as the gansey.
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Like, the pretty part is also practical.
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00:13:35,189 --> 00:13:38,411
Yoana: I'm thinking about a Fair
Isle that I have from Levi's.
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I don't have it on me, but
I, I don't think there's any,
261
00:13:41,159 --> 00:13:43,878
like, change in that texture.
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00:13:43,978 --> 00:13:47,484
You're saying that the part where
the yoke is was a little bit bulkier,
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00:13:47,557 --> 00:13:51,695
definitely heavier up here in where
your chest is, kinda like protecting you
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00:13:51,795 --> 00:13:52,245
that makes sense
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00:13:52,269 --> 00:13:52,686
Chandler: Yeah.
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00:13:52,686 --> 00:13:53,789
there's different types.
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00:13:53,790 --> 00:13:57,776
Some of them you'll have the patterning
through the entire sweater, so the entire
268
00:13:57,776 --> 00:13:59,540
sweater is effectively double thickness.
269
00:13:59,740 --> 00:14:03,240
Others, the yoke is the only part
that's gonna have that, and so it'll
270
00:14:03,244 --> 00:14:06,876
be double thick on the yoke, and if
the rest is one solid color, that would
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00:14:06,878 --> 00:14:09,349
just be one effective layer of knit.
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00:14:09,549 --> 00:14:13,076
But there's kind of this legend about
where these colorful patterns come from.
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00:14:13,108 --> 00:14:18,066
So nearly to the day, 438 years
ago, there was a shipwreck.
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00:14:18,148 --> 00:14:22,675
So a ship called El Gran Grifon
wrecked on the rocks of Fair Isle.
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00:14:22,875 --> 00:14:28,019
So this was end of September 1588, and it
wasn't just any ship, it was a flagship of
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00:14:28,019 --> 00:14:30,490
the supply squadron of the Spanish Armada.
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00:14:30,690 --> 00:14:34,009
So that was the fleet that Spain had
sent to invade England, which had just
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00:14:34,010 --> 00:14:38,265
been scattered and was basically trying
to limp home around the top of Scotland.
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00:14:38,465 --> 00:14:43,087
So somewhere around 300 Spanish sailors
and soldiers scrambled ashore onto this
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00:14:43,099 --> 00:14:48,438
tiny island that had, like, 17 households
on it, and they lived there among the
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00:14:48,439 --> 00:14:51,739
Scottish islanders for about six weeks.
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00:14:51,904 --> 00:14:55,897
And we actually have a diary from one of
the Spaniards who described the islanders
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00:14:55,929 --> 00:15:01,459
as a savage people who ate mostly fish
and barley cakes and had barely any bread.
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00:15:01,589 --> 00:15:04,976
So think about 300 people
descending upon 17 households.
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00:15:05,176 --> 00:15:05,995
Oof.
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00:15:06,195 --> 00:15:10,383
Yoana: well, yeah, and then for them to
write journal entries, let them, like,
287
00:15:10,384 --> 00:15:14,764
critique the town in which they landed in
a little bit, I don't know, it's curious.
288
00:15:14,888 --> 00:15:15,404
I'm like, " Oh,
289
00:15:15,454 --> 00:15:19,331
Chandler: That's very on par for
the Spanish at that time, but yes.
290
00:15:19,531 --> 00:15:22,651
Yoana: I, I mean, of course I'm
like, " That's not, that's not
291
00:15:22,653 --> 00:15:26,364
so kind." I don't think that that
was top of mind for them, um, m-
292
00:15:26,563 --> 00:15:27,834
Chandler: Meanwhile,
they were going to war.
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00:15:28,034 --> 00:15:28,918
Yoana: No, literally.
294
00:15:28,991 --> 00:15:30,468
Um yeah.
295
00:15:30,508 --> 00:15:31,102
Wow.
296
00:15:31,302 --> 00:15:33,048
And so they were there for six weeks.
297
00:15:33,069 --> 00:15:33,666
What did they do?
298
00:15:33,677 --> 00:15:36,429
They just kind of like effectively
rested before they could
299
00:15:36,729 --> 00:15:38,468
Chandler: Well, so there's a funny quote.
300
00:15:38,526 --> 00:15:41,815
The legend is that these stranded
Spaniards taught the islanders
301
00:15:41,855 --> 00:15:45,745
the bright, complex color patterns
that became Fair Isle knitting.
302
00:15:45,945 --> 00:15:47,028
It's a great story.
303
00:15:47,228 --> 00:15:48,402
It's probably not true.
304
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,571
There's no real evidence that these
patterns came from the Spanish,
305
00:15:51,604 --> 00:15:56,049
and Fair Isle sat right on the busy
North Atlantic trade routes that went
306
00:15:56,049 --> 00:15:57,844
through Scandinavia and the Baltic.
307
00:15:58,044 --> 00:16:01,441
So the color work was most likely
developed from centuries of
308
00:16:01,442 --> 00:16:03,806
trade and not from one shipwreck.
309
00:16:03,869 --> 00:16:07,379
As one historian put it, so much
gets attributed to those poor
310
00:16:07,412 --> 00:16:10,501
shipwrecked Spaniards that they
must have been terribly busy.
311
00:16:10,651 --> 00:16:13,874
What ended up happening actually is that
a lot of them died before they were able
312
00:16:13,874 --> 00:16:18,056
to be rescued, because these people didn't
have enough food to share with 300 people.
313
00:16:18,256 --> 00:16:21,214
Um, and they were there
long enough to starve.
314
00:16:21,238 --> 00:16:23,402
So that's how the story actually went.
315
00:16:23,602 --> 00:16:29,560
But, um, one more kind of piece of Fair
Isle folklore that I love, which again,
316
00:16:29,635 --> 00:16:33,516
I'm not… We can't say whether or not
this one's entirely true, but knitters
317
00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:37,226
supposedly work one deliberate mistake
into every sweater so that the devil
318
00:16:37,226 --> 00:16:40,980
can't admire a perfect piece of knitting
and drag the wearer down to hell.
319
00:16:41,180 --> 00:16:45,479
So there's kind of this imperfection as
spiritual insurance, which we see across
320
00:16:45,479 --> 00:16:48,617
a lot of kind of that handmade stuff.
321
00:16:48,762 --> 00:16:50,838
But that's one of the other legends.
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00:16:50,938 --> 00:16:52,784
Yoana: I'm loving these
legends that come across.
323
00:16:52,888 --> 00:16:57,219
I mean, even with signet rings, we
learned about how, it historically
324
00:16:57,220 --> 00:17:01,708
embodied the person and it was even more
powerful than a signature would be today.
325
00:17:01,908 --> 00:17:05,550
And now you're here telling me about
how, this, like, pattern on a sweater
326
00:17:05,553 --> 00:17:09,623
that right now you, you could walk in
The Gap and see a bunch of Fair Isle
327
00:17:09,624 --> 00:17:12,250
sweaters that are for the holidays,
and you wouldn't think anything of it.
328
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:14,755
Like, it's just a pattern
that we just see nowadays.
329
00:17:14,955 --> 00:17:18,917
But there's all this lore about how
it protected you in a way, similar
330
00:17:18,918 --> 00:17:20,645
to the signet rings historically.
331
00:17:20,945 --> 00:17:21,355
Chandler: Yeah.
332
00:17:21,466 --> 00:17:27,316
I think these come from a part of
the world that was heavily Focused on
333
00:17:27,321 --> 00:17:30,898
folklore, and I think that's part of
why we see so much folklore surrounding
334
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:36,036
these, mixed with more or less marketing
and the really strong attempt to
335
00:17:36,038 --> 00:17:40,711
make these marketable to people who
wanted kind of a memento of the place.
336
00:17:40,862 --> 00:17:45,033
But yeah, there's almost more myth
than truth that's circulated with
337
00:17:45,033 --> 00:17:46,777
these, which is really interesting.
338
00:17:46,977 --> 00:17:50,085
But there is a true story that
I'm about to tell of how Fair
339
00:17:50,085 --> 00:17:51,571
Isle kind of hit the mainstream.
340
00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:54,940
So up until now, everything
we've talked about is workwear.
341
00:17:55,140 --> 00:17:58,274
It's poor people's clothes,
fishermen, islanders, herring girls.
342
00:17:58,275 --> 00:18:00,161
This is not a fashionable object.
343
00:18:00,174 --> 00:18:02,479
It's kind of, in fact, the
opposite of fashionable.
344
00:18:02,679 --> 00:18:05,390
It's what you wear because you're cold
and you're wet and you're working.
345
00:18:05,586 --> 00:18:08,167
So how do they make the
jump into high fashion?
346
00:18:08,330 --> 00:18:10,352
It's one photograph and one guy.
347
00:18:10,552 --> 00:18:14,656
So in 1921, Edward, the Prince of
Wales, who would be the future Edward
348
00:18:14,663 --> 00:18:19,350
VIII, the one who'd later abdicate the
throne, was given a Fair Isle jumper
349
00:18:19,372 --> 00:18:21,039
by wool merchants up in Shetland.
350
00:18:21,469 --> 00:18:24,491
And at the time, he was one of the
most fashionable and photographed
351
00:18:24,491 --> 00:18:25,850
men in the entire world.
352
00:18:26,050 --> 00:18:28,240
He was basically the
influencer of his generation.
353
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,952
And so he started wearing the Fair Isle
jumper in public, famously on the golf
354
00:18:32,954 --> 00:18:35,348
course, and that was really all it took.
355
00:18:35,522 --> 00:18:38,847
At that point, this remote
island's fisherman knit became
356
00:18:38,847 --> 00:18:40,507
an overnight luxury craze.
357
00:18:40,550 --> 00:18:45,022
He kind of quiet luxuriated it, and
so suddenly this humble functional
358
00:18:45,022 --> 00:18:48,883
garment is high fashion, and it's worn
by the exact kind of people who would
359
00:18:48,883 --> 00:18:50,635
never have set foot on a fishing boat.
360
00:18:50,881 --> 00:18:53,879
That's kind of the pivot and the
moment when these become what we
361
00:18:53,923 --> 00:18:55,602
know today of a fisherman sweater.
362
00:18:55,802 --> 00:18:59,996
So the sweater goes everywhere, and once
that door is open, it just never leaves.
363
00:19:00,095 --> 00:19:03,199
It kind of becomes shorthand that
keeps getting picked over and over.
364
00:19:03,399 --> 00:19:05,163
So I wanna run through just a few of them.
365
00:19:05,363 --> 00:19:08,847
Paul McCartney is photographed
in a Fair Isle jumper and is
366
00:19:08,847 --> 00:19:10,308
kind of associated with it.
367
00:19:10,427 --> 00:19:11,604
his is really beautiful.
368
00:19:11,604 --> 00:19:12,246
I actually love it.
369
00:19:12,346 --> 00:19:15,987
Steve McQueen is very closely
associated with the Aran knit, and
370
00:19:15,987 --> 00:19:20,095
it's kind of a big part of that, like,
effortless '60s tough guy look for him.
371
00:19:20,295 --> 00:19:24,941
And then Marilyn Monroe's famous beach
shoot in a chunky knit is kind of
372
00:19:24,942 --> 00:19:28,871
fisherman sweater reminiscent, and that
was her last photo shoot, Santa Monica
373
00:19:28,871 --> 00:19:31,931
1962, just a couple weeks before she died.
374
00:19:32,131 --> 00:19:36,229
So it's this hyper-masculine workwear
piece, and now it's on Marilyn Monroe,
375
00:19:36,303 --> 00:19:38,098
and it's very feminine and glamorous.
376
00:19:38,298 --> 00:19:39,542
And it just kind of continues.
377
00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:43,038
So Emma Watson wore a Fair
Isle in the Harry Potter films.
378
00:19:43,065 --> 00:19:47,672
Kate Middleton wears one of these many
winters, a Fair Isle knit in particular.
379
00:19:47,872 --> 00:19:51,528
And then I loved this little story
about the actor Daniel Day-Lewis.
380
00:19:51,583 --> 00:19:53,994
He's, like, famously very meticulous.
381
00:19:54,194 --> 00:19:58,564
And he reportedly once phoned up a
traditional Gansey knitter because
382
00:19:58,564 --> 00:20:01,853
he wanted to make a specific
historic village pattern From a
383
00:20:01,853 --> 00:20:03,685
specific town on the Yorkshire Coast.
384
00:20:03,795 --> 00:20:06,664
He made it and then ended
up wearing it in W Magazine.
385
00:20:06,726 --> 00:20:08,468
And again, it's a very beautiful sweater.
386
00:20:08,668 --> 00:20:11,563
But I'd say that's kind of where we
answer this question of where the
387
00:20:11,564 --> 00:20:13,335
myth ends and the sweater begins.
388
00:20:13,340 --> 00:20:17,066
So that drowned fisherman myth
is built on some real history.
389
00:20:17,289 --> 00:20:19,488
Gansey patterns were regional-ish.
390
00:20:19,533 --> 00:20:23,146
Certain motifs and combinations were
clustered around certain fishing ports.
391
00:20:23,346 --> 00:20:25,775
So someone who really knew what
they were looking at could make a
392
00:20:25,775 --> 00:20:29,656
decent guess where a guy was from
based on the pattern on his sweater.
393
00:20:30,082 --> 00:20:35,724
The kind of very neat village equals
this pattern map was partly invented.
394
00:20:35,824 --> 00:20:40,435
It was very much tidied up, mostly in
the '40s and '50s by collectors who were
395
00:20:40,435 --> 00:20:44,400
traveling around recording these ganseys
and just making assumptions of, you
396
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,439
know, what they were seeing must be fact.
397
00:20:46,539 --> 00:20:48,505
In real life, the
patterns were more fluid.
398
00:20:48,543 --> 00:20:51,993
Knitters were borrowing motifs,
mixing them, improvising, and then
399
00:20:51,994 --> 00:20:54,650
the herring girls were carrying
patterns up and down the coast.
400
00:20:54,661 --> 00:20:56,762
So tradition was messier.
401
00:20:56,817 --> 00:20:59,134
It got kind of cleaned up by marketing.
402
00:20:59,334 --> 00:21:03,073
But if you strip it all back,
I think that, to your point,
403
00:21:03,081 --> 00:21:04,180
something real is left.
404
00:21:04,199 --> 00:21:05,935
The sweater does carry identity.
405
00:21:06,135 --> 00:21:11,496
It's not the morbid, Gothic version
that sells of drowned men, but it is
406
00:21:11,499 --> 00:21:16,494
still kind of this quieter, rough story
of, "This is where I'm from, this is
407
00:21:16,494 --> 00:21:21,725
my community, and this was knit for me
for a specific purpose, which is m- my
408
00:21:21,922 --> 00:21:24,044
culture of these fishing communities."
409
00:21:24,101 --> 00:21:28,274
So it's a style that grew up around
specific stretches of coastline,
410
00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:32,143
have since infiltrated popular
media, but I think have a very real
411
00:21:32,343 --> 00:21:34,557
history and culture behind them.
412
00:21:34,757 --> 00:21:37,505
Yoana: It's interesting because
you've mentioned, how they've changed
413
00:21:37,505 --> 00:21:40,956
over time, but they also aren't
really allowed to change anymore.
414
00:21:40,961 --> 00:21:42,401
I feel like they're really ingrained.
415
00:21:42,628 --> 00:21:48,487
I think what I mean by that is they
can be personalized, but if something
416
00:21:48,567 --> 00:21:52,523
very drastically different to I
guess, construction of a Fair Isle
417
00:21:52,523 --> 00:21:56,534
or what that pattern looks like, or
even just an Aran sweater happened,
418
00:21:56,544 --> 00:21:58,747
it would be, I think pretty jarring.
419
00:21:58,947 --> 00:21:59,963
I don't know if you agree with that.
420
00:21:59,963 --> 00:22:00,971
Chandler: I think it makes sense.
421
00:22:00,972 --> 00:22:05,535
I think it depends on how you're
trying to feed into the tradition.
422
00:22:05,588 --> 00:22:10,026
If you're buying into the tradition
as it exists, or at least as
423
00:22:10,027 --> 00:22:13,778
it's sold, I think you have to
follow pretty certain parameters.
424
00:22:13,803 --> 00:22:19,730
But I think you could also play on these
and modernize them for your own intent
425
00:22:20,025 --> 00:22:25,114
and kind of more or less be buying into
this folklore surrounding these and
426
00:22:25,398 --> 00:22:27,392
basically remixing it for a new purpose
427
00:22:27,692 --> 00:22:29,784
Yoana: We'll talk about remixing,
'cause I think there's just
428
00:22:29,879 --> 00:22:31,305
some interesting reactions.
429
00:22:31,505 --> 00:22:34,565
but I mean, to your point, Grace Kelly
is seen photographed wearing one of
430
00:22:34,565 --> 00:22:37,572
these in, like, 1962, But if you were
to look at, like, Taylor Swift wearing
431
00:22:37,573 --> 00:22:41,800
it on the folklore promos, if you were
to take Taylor Swift and put her next
432
00:22:41,801 --> 00:22:45,296
to a Grace Kelly photo, the only thing
that would tell you that they're taken
433
00:22:45,296 --> 00:22:48,721
from a different period is, maybe the
way that Grace Kelly's hair is styled,
434
00:22:48,721 --> 00:22:51,709
or, if you knew who they are, how old
they are, and when the photo was taken.
435
00:22:51,710 --> 00:22:52,683
they look the same.
436
00:22:52,883 --> 00:22:54,441
Especially the Aran sweaters, right?
437
00:22:54,443 --> 00:22:55,466
Like, it's cream wool.
438
00:22:55,692 --> 00:22:59,688
It's cables running down the front,
I found this really cool quote from,
439
00:22:59,762 --> 00:23:05,006
a scholar who explores mostly how the
creative economy has evolved in rural
440
00:23:05,017 --> 00:23:09,471
contexts, and her quote is from an
academic paper that's titled " Cable
441
00:23:09,471 --> 00:23:12,436
Crossing: The Aran Jumper as Myth
and Merchandise", hello, you just
442
00:23:12,436 --> 00:23:13,411
walked us through a lot of that.
443
00:23:13,611 --> 00:23:18,046
But, um, it says that, "The tendency to
treat knitting as timeless and to downplay
444
00:23:18,047 --> 00:23:22,535
change lends itself to both the romantic
nationalist and the clever salesperson,"
445
00:23:22,823 --> 00:23:26,851
which I think, so beautifully sums
up what you just talked about.
446
00:23:26,886 --> 00:23:29,849
'Cause it's not that the
sweater doesn't change.
447
00:23:29,850 --> 00:23:34,457
It's almost gotten to a point of where it
can't change, 'cause that sameness, in a
448
00:23:34,458 --> 00:23:36,621
way, is what makes it feel so authentic.
449
00:23:36,721 --> 00:23:39,841
I have kind of a personal
t- tidbit attached to this.
450
00:23:39,866 --> 00:23:42,361
I went to Galway, a couple of years ago.
451
00:23:42,456 --> 00:23:46,369
we spent a couple of days in Dublin,
we went to the Aran Sweater Market.
452
00:23:46,402 --> 00:23:50,864
There's a couple of them And the
certificate of authenticity was… I
453
00:23:50,864 --> 00:23:52,700
mean, it was everywhere on these sweaters.
454
00:23:52,731 --> 00:23:56,842
But the reason we didn't end up getting
one from there is a comment about how,
455
00:23:56,843 --> 00:24:01,406
like, they aren't that authentic, which
was kind of funny because, you know,
456
00:24:01,406 --> 00:24:04,471
it was like something that I really
wanted from Ireland, and candidly,
457
00:24:04,472 --> 00:24:07,703
I ended up getting like a Guinness
sweater from the Guinness Beer Factory.
458
00:24:07,704 --> 00:24:09,844
Like, not that that's
that much more authentic.
459
00:24:10,162 --> 00:24:10,524
But,
460
00:24:10,614 --> 00:24:14,172
Ireland has found such a good way
to popularize and commercialize
461
00:24:14,176 --> 00:24:16,926
this that, I mean, it's a beautiful
study on commercialization.
462
00:24:17,126 --> 00:24:18,637
But it, it hasn't stopped.
463
00:24:18,688 --> 00:24:22,365
during our time in Galway, we kind
of had known that, this was one of
464
00:24:22,365 --> 00:24:23,808
the sweaters that you wanted to get.
465
00:24:23,908 --> 00:24:28,097
We booked a tour to just go see the
Cliffs of Moher, the Aran Islands,
466
00:24:29,022 --> 00:24:33,007
Inisheer , specifically . On the way
on the bus, we saw this pink cottage.
467
00:24:33,260 --> 00:24:37,123
It was beautiful, very eye-catching,
and it's the sweater shop in Doolin, and
468
00:24:37,123 --> 00:24:38,781
it's one of the most famous in Ireland.
469
00:24:38,881 --> 00:24:41,808
it's kind of one of those things that
for a lot of people, this Aran sweater
470
00:24:41,808 --> 00:24:45,017
specifically, has been integrated
into their schedules in a way.
471
00:24:45,018 --> 00:24:47,599
it's almost a souvenir
that proves that you went.
472
00:24:47,699 --> 00:24:50,742
Going to the Aran Islands is
a bit inconvenient and it,
473
00:24:50,762 --> 00:24:52,258
it's fairly inaccessible.
474
00:24:52,424 --> 00:24:55,593
It still is like a long trek to get there
today, so if you think about it going
475
00:24:55,593 --> 00:24:57,735
back, takes a lot longer to get there.
476
00:24:57,835 --> 00:25:01,353
I think in the modern day it's
become even more touristy.
477
00:25:01,553 --> 00:25:04,928
and companies and Ireland
are profiting on that.
478
00:25:05,038 --> 00:25:09,622
If you Googled it today, I will bet you
money that you're gonna get this article
479
00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:13,640
about a creator whose name is Marisa
Meizz, I think that's how you pronounce
480
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,728
her name, and she was in a village in
Kilcar and she basically films herself
481
00:25:18,828 --> 00:25:22,683
pulling up on the side of the road,
and she's like, " We're in Ireland.
482
00:25:22,688 --> 00:25:23,933
We're on a road trip.
483
00:25:24,033 --> 00:25:25,155
We just pulled over.
484
00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:26,650
I don't know exactly where we are.
485
00:25:26,650 --> 00:25:28,166
I think we're at some lady's house.
486
00:25:28,166 --> 00:25:29,068
Let's go inside."
487
00:25:29,126 --> 00:25:30,814
Chandler: Oh, I've seen this video.
488
00:25:30,914 --> 00:25:32,134
I felt jealous of the creator.
489
00:25:32,150 --> 00:25:34,940
I was like, this is such a cool
local experience that she's
490
00:25:34,966 --> 00:25:37,015
getting, like how authentic.
491
00:25:37,016 --> 00:25:39,705
I feel like it's difficult to find that.
492
00:25:39,805 --> 00:25:40,849
Yoana: I hate to burst a bubble.
493
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,008
Granted, like, okay,
They're still handmade.
494
00:25:43,018 --> 00:25:44,115
These sweaters are beautiful,
495
00:25:44,415 --> 00:25:45,084
Chandler: 100%
496
00:25:45,384 --> 00:25:49,089
Yoana: this creator is part of
a Tourism Ireland and GoPro trip
497
00:25:49,139 --> 00:25:52,637
that was seven creators that were
exploring throughout Ireland.
498
00:25:52,787 --> 00:25:54,122
It was kind of a tourism campaign.
499
00:25:54,174 --> 00:25:55,274
I don't think it makes it fake.
500
00:25:55,474 --> 00:25:57,823
The woman whose house it
was is Kathleen Meehan.
501
00:25:57,847 --> 00:25:58,831
She's completely real.
502
00:25:59,031 --> 00:26:00,840
She, she knits these sweaters.
503
00:26:00,917 --> 00:26:01,813
Like, it's very smart.
504
00:26:01,834 --> 00:26:05,460
Ireland is trying to showcase
what going to Ireland feels like.
505
00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:08,186
But Chan, you saw this clip and you…
506
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:13,559
It was, like, the perfect romantic thing
that you think of when you go to Ireland,
507
00:26:13,563 --> 00:26:17,631
and you stop on the side of the road, and,
you go and see something really unique.
508
00:26:17,631 --> 00:26:22,970
Yes, that, that is true, but that was
kinda planned . And so it kind of,
509
00:26:23,071 --> 00:26:27,152
just made me realize that it, it's,
like, continued to be pushed in this
510
00:26:27,154 --> 00:26:32,238
marketing way, it made me a little
sad because it lost a little bit of,
511
00:26:32,239 --> 00:26:34,020
like, the spark from that video for me.
512
00:26:34,220 --> 00:26:36,031
So that's how I feel about it.
513
00:26:36,331 --> 00:26:38,385
Chandler: It's kinda g-
it's kinda hard, right?
514
00:26:38,406 --> 00:26:44,173
'Cause, like, the fact that these
developed from this more or less
515
00:26:44,175 --> 00:26:49,136
marketing campaign, I don't think
makes them any less of a quality good.
516
00:26:49,336 --> 00:26:50,556
To your point, they're still handmade.
517
00:26:50,756 --> 00:26:52,325
It's high-quality wool.
518
00:26:52,525 --> 00:26:55,516
It still takes a specific
craft to knit these.
519
00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:56,998
All of that remains true.
520
00:26:57,198 --> 00:27:01,165
I think what the part that's, like,
actually just not true is, like,
521
00:27:01,183 --> 00:27:04,509
selling this idea that these are,
like, an ancient Celtic tradition
522
00:27:04,509 --> 00:27:07,096
that have existed for 400-plus years.
523
00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:10,058
That's just not… In the case of
the Aran, that's just not true.
524
00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:15,238
don't think it takes away from these
being, like, a culturally Irish thing,
525
00:27:15,245 --> 00:27:17,048
I think all of that remains true.
526
00:27:17,248 --> 00:27:21,641
It's just a slightly different item
that you're getting than maybe the
527
00:27:21,641 --> 00:27:24,704
story you've been sold, but that
doesn't have any bearing on, like,
528
00:27:24,979 --> 00:27:26,850
the material quality of the item
529
00:27:27,150 --> 00:27:27,280
Yoana: Yeah.
530
00:27:27,390 --> 00:27:31,732
The material quality about them 100%,
I think another thing, too, is just
531
00:27:31,733 --> 00:27:36,025
that these kind of work on anybody,
and they're really, uh, they're just
532
00:27:36,026 --> 00:27:37,787
simple to integrate into your wardrobe.
533
00:27:37,909 --> 00:27:41,097
But then also, like, the screen
effect of these is, is crazy.
534
00:27:41,330 --> 00:27:45,913
When I told somebody that we were doing
this episode on, fisherman sweaters.
535
00:27:45,953 --> 00:27:49,225
And someone asked me, "Oh, are you
covering Knives Out?" And I was
536
00:27:49,225 --> 00:27:53,985
like, Wait, I had known about Knives
Out because we've been researching
537
00:27:53,986 --> 00:27:57,891
this, but I didn't know it was, like,
that infiltrated in popular culture,
538
00:27:57,891 --> 00:27:59,458
Chandler: Did you see
that man in that sweater?
539
00:27:59,758 --> 00:28:01,180
Yoana: Everybody saw
that man in that sweater
540
00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:03,888
Chandler: I could see why it's
that integrated in pop culture.
541
00:28:03,889 --> 00:28:05,180
He looked good.
542
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,189
Yoana: He, I mean, it was like
such a big deal, you guys.
543
00:28:09,317 --> 00:28:12,264
So like if you haven't seen
Knives Out, it's basically
544
00:28:12,264 --> 00:28:13,874
like this like murder mystery.
545
00:28:13,886 --> 00:28:14,850
It's fun.
546
00:28:14,927 --> 00:28:15,900
It's dramatic.
547
00:28:15,958 --> 00:28:17,659
What do you, like would, would
you describe it that way?
548
00:28:18,072 --> 00:28:20,900
Chandler: I think it's meant to
be tongue in cheek, kinda comedic
549
00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:21,468
Yoana: Yeah.
550
00:28:21,568 --> 00:28:22,785
Star-studded cast.
551
00:28:23,014 --> 00:28:27,441
One of these , stars is Chris Evans,
who like, I'm not gonna spoil it,
552
00:28:27,441 --> 00:28:31,699
you should watch the movie, but he
wears an Aran sweater throughout the
553
00:28:31,699 --> 00:28:33,752
movie, and like people freaked out.
554
00:28:33,788 --> 00:28:36,787
One of the things I saw when we were
researching is like a journalist
555
00:28:36,787 --> 00:28:39,777
tweeted, " The only observation I have
about Knives Out is that when Chris
556
00:28:39,777 --> 00:28:43,559
Evans appeared in a sweater, the girl
beside me gasped and softly remarked,
557
00:28:43,654 --> 00:28:45,681
'Sweater.'" it like was a whole meme.
558
00:28:45,956 --> 00:28:46,581
They even
559
00:28:46,736 --> 00:28:47,228
Chandler: Yes
560
00:28:47,428 --> 00:28:48,370
Yoana: Okay, this is hilarious.
561
00:28:48,370 --> 00:28:52,497
They even turned their Twitter account
into a Chris Evans Sweater Stan
562
00:28:52,497 --> 00:28:57,065
Account I I mean, there were even Alamo
Drafthouse in LA did like, a sweater
563
00:28:57,085 --> 00:28:59,322
only screening of the mo- of the movie.
564
00:28:59,802 --> 00:29:03,604
Chris Evans posted his dog
wearing an aran sweater.
565
00:29:03,854 --> 00:29:08,173
the account for Knives Out
is just very tongue in cheek.
566
00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:12,036
So if you've seen House of Gucci, or
if you've seen the promo for House of
567
00:29:12,036 --> 00:29:17,345
Gucci… Adam Driver is wearing an Aran
sweater, and the Knives Out account,
568
00:29:17,550 --> 00:29:21,409
like, retweeted the promo of House of
Gucci and was like, "This is Knives Out
569
00:29:21,409 --> 00:29:25,710
2," and they've, like, uplifted sales
for companies I think, like, Blarney
570
00:29:25,711 --> 00:29:30,780
Woollen Mills had their honeycomb
Aran jump 150%, it has this effect.
571
00:29:30,782 --> 00:29:34,398
So I just think they're a sweater
that once you see a celebrity or
572
00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:37,873
someone look good in them, it's
really easy for you to buy it.
573
00:29:37,973 --> 00:29:40,944
it's not like a celebrity
just wearing a Birkin around.
574
00:29:40,951 --> 00:29:43,512
Sure, I might want a Birkin, but
that doesn't mean I can get up
575
00:29:43,512 --> 00:29:44,951
tomorrow and, like, buy a Birkin.
576
00:29:45,212 --> 00:29:48,446
But I can, like, get up tomorrow
and buy an Aran sweater if I see
577
00:29:48,446 --> 00:29:51,264
an influencer that I think is
really cool wearing one, you know?
578
00:29:51,564 --> 00:29:51,812
Chandler: Yeah.
579
00:29:52,012 --> 00:29:56,336
I think, too, it's funny because
why they're so popular, I think is
580
00:29:56,349 --> 00:29:58,360
in part why they're so functional.
581
00:29:58,660 --> 00:29:59,045
Yoana: Ya
582
00:29:59,202 --> 00:30:02,127
Chandler: they look very warm
because they are, because that's
583
00:30:02,128 --> 00:30:03,378
what they were developed to be.
584
00:30:03,578 --> 00:30:07,084
And then I think, the way that people
often wear them now, they're a little
585
00:30:07,084 --> 00:30:11,313
bit oversized, but then they have
all of this detailing, oftentimes
586
00:30:11,405 --> 00:30:15,444
vertical detailing, that functions in
some ways like a stripe, where it's
587
00:30:15,445 --> 00:30:19,126
a little bit slimming even though the
garment itself is oversized because
588
00:30:19,226 --> 00:30:21,076
your eye moves vertically across it.
589
00:30:21,276 --> 00:30:26,810
And so it's oversized but still detailed,
so you still have interest visually even
590
00:30:26,810 --> 00:30:28,953
though it's a larger piece of fabric.
591
00:30:28,973 --> 00:30:31,616
Like, I think there's a lot there
that it makes sense to me why
592
00:30:31,617 --> 00:30:33,100
they're as popular as they are.
593
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:35,883
And they're super warm
while being beautiful
594
00:30:36,083 --> 00:30:36,367
Yoana: Yeah.
595
00:30:36,567 --> 00:30:38,205
And I think they're
really, like, approachable.
596
00:30:38,405 --> 00:30:38,415
Chandler: Ya
597
00:30:38,487 --> 00:30:38,966
Yoana: I don't know.
598
00:30:39,057 --> 00:30:42,755
always leave our episodes with a
movie I need to rewatch , and the
599
00:30:42,755 --> 00:30:45,810
second movie I need to watch is
When Harry Met Sally, because it's
600
00:30:45,810 --> 00:30:45,900
been
601
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:46,502
too long.
602
00:30:46,702 --> 00:30:48,519
He wears fisherman sweater in the movie.
603
00:30:48,719 --> 00:30:52,977
I feel like to your point of the
signals that it sends, for Knives Out
604
00:30:53,207 --> 00:30:56,522
and Ransom, which is the name of the
character that Chris Evans plays, it's
605
00:30:56,524 --> 00:31:00,091
really interesting 'cause I think the
director wanted to signal him being warm
606
00:31:00,291 --> 00:31:01,876
and him looking really approachable.
607
00:31:02,076 --> 00:31:06,794
And then Harry in, When Harry Met Sally
is like, He's an approachable dude.
608
00:31:06,844 --> 00:31:10,702
There was a whole trend in 2025 where
people were recreating Billy Crystalcore,
609
00:31:10,902 --> 00:31:12,759
um, if that was ever on your feed.
610
00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:13,532
So I think you're right.
611
00:31:13,543 --> 00:31:17,724
The parts of it that are true
al- also the messages it sends.
612
00:31:17,924 --> 00:31:21,911
So it's like a warm sweater that's very
utilitarian, but it also, like, signals
613
00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:23,734
warmth in the way that you wear it,
614
00:31:23,734 --> 00:31:25,511
Chandler: No I think that's true It's also
615
00:31:25,621 --> 00:31:26,705
very unisex
616
00:31:26,905 --> 00:31:27,799
Yoana: So unisex.
617
00:31:28,029 --> 00:31:30,344
Chandler: It was not
originally that way at all.
618
00:31:30,544 --> 00:31:31,653
It was highly masculine
619
00:31:31,853 --> 00:31:33,127
Yoana: It was highly masculine.
620
00:31:33,407 --> 00:31:37,477
For the Aran specifically, what
really stood out to me, which
621
00:31:37,477 --> 00:31:40,160
I would connect to this, like,
broader idea of commercializing the
622
00:31:40,161 --> 00:31:42,062
sweater, is the Clancy Brothers.
623
00:31:42,063 --> 00:31:45,938
they were, like, this very massively
influential Irish folk music group formed
624
00:31:45,938 --> 00:31:51,471
in the 1950s, kind of around the time at
which this is becoming popular, and they
625
00:31:51,472 --> 00:31:55,742
popularized Irish traditional music and,
like, the Irish folk revival, candidly.
626
00:31:55,842 --> 00:32:00,882
Their mother knitted their Aran sweaters,
they have 13 albums, 10 of the 13 album
627
00:32:00,884 --> 00:32:03,428
covers, they're wearing aran sweaters.
628
00:32:03,479 --> 00:32:04,231
Like, all of them.
629
00:32:04,501 --> 00:32:06,108
It's like, it's not even funny.
630
00:32:06,121 --> 00:32:09,018
There was a quote that literally
said those covers acted as adverts
631
00:32:09,022 --> 00:32:12,044
for the garment as well as for
the music And with everything that
632
00:32:12,044 --> 00:32:14,988
we've just talked about, with how
Ireland has approached the sweater,
633
00:32:15,188 --> 00:32:19,269
Chandler: Well, what's funny is I
feel like seeing that album cover,
634
00:32:19,398 --> 00:32:22,278
I don't even need to hear the
music to know what it sounds like
635
00:32:22,478 --> 00:32:23,642
It's very evocative.
636
00:32:23,789 --> 00:32:27,603
I see that sweater, I see
the Irish landscape, I know
637
00:32:27,604 --> 00:32:28,617
what the music sounds like
638
00:32:28,817 --> 00:32:29,221
Yoana: Mm-hmm.
639
00:32:29,221 --> 00:32:34,851
It is now I think an interesting funnel
that continues to almost reinforce itself
640
00:32:35,151 --> 00:32:35,636
Chandler: Totally
641
00:32:35,936 --> 00:32:39,420
Yoana: Because like 2020 Taylor
Swift's Folklore, the way that
642
00:32:39,421 --> 00:32:42,244
whole album is positioned is
like it started with imagery.
643
00:32:42,296 --> 00:32:45,749
There's like a cardigan that
bears the scent of 20 years later.
644
00:32:45,949 --> 00:32:49,061
And then she's wearing an Aran
knit in one of the promo images.
645
00:32:49,161 --> 00:32:50,716
Chandler: There's a song called Cardigan
646
00:32:51,016 --> 00:32:51,371
Yoana: Yeah.
647
00:32:51,571 --> 00:32:54,494
And it makes total sense I
think Taylor is so smart.
648
00:32:54,521 --> 00:32:57,554
This sweater has been a part
of folk's uniform for a long
649
00:32:57,554 --> 00:32:59,231
time, at least Irish folk.
650
00:32:59,431 --> 00:33:03,740
And then 60 years later, when
Taylor does this, she like almost
651
00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:06,278
reinstates that even further.
652
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:12,033
We're just feeding this loop of authentic,
handmade, and rooted, and it is, it is.
653
00:33:12,081 --> 00:33:15,759
I don't want to say that I'm like
discrediting the Aran sweater and where
654
00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:20,577
it comes from, but there's been like
such tactical ways to make that feel
655
00:33:20,577 --> 00:33:22,545
even more emotional than it actually is.
656
00:33:22,833 --> 00:33:28,410
Um, even to the point of where like some
of our most strategic composers, you
657
00:33:28,410 --> 00:33:30,790
know, celebrities, are like feeding that,
658
00:33:30,849 --> 00:33:35,783
Chandler: Well, in Taylor's case, when she
releases an album, releases basically an
659
00:33:35,848 --> 00:33:37,728
atmosphere that accompanies that album.
660
00:33:37,737 --> 00:33:42,268
Like, she builds out an entire
world of imagery, emotions, all
661
00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:43,662
of this comes with the album.
662
00:33:43,668 --> 00:33:46,814
So it's a lot more than just
the music, and I think that, the
663
00:33:46,816 --> 00:33:48,540
album itself is called Folklore.
664
00:33:48,563 --> 00:33:52,495
She's using a sweater that is
steeped in folklore as part
665
00:33:52,495 --> 00:33:53,987
of the imagery for that album.
666
00:33:54,277 --> 00:33:58,759
And a lot of it is kind of
this, nostalgic, cozy, little
667
00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:00,667
bit dark, like, misty vibe.
668
00:34:00,679 --> 00:34:07,091
All of that feeds into what that album
is, and I think she was not making a
669
00:34:07,091 --> 00:34:10,752
mistake when she fed into a sweater
that's already steeped in all of that
670
00:34:10,764 --> 00:34:16,222
imagery as part of her package when it
came to that era, that Folklore era.
671
00:34:16,322 --> 00:34:20,159
I think regardless of whether or not
the story of these sweaters are myth
672
00:34:20,184 --> 00:34:23,011
or truth, these sweaters are that vibe.
673
00:34:23,033 --> 00:34:24,975
Like, that, at this point, they are that.
674
00:34:25,175 --> 00:34:27,827
And how they became that, I don't
think is actually all that relevant.
675
00:34:27,927 --> 00:34:30,973
But I think it's honestly, like,
worthy of historical interest in
676
00:34:30,973 --> 00:34:34,221
and of itself that these had such a
strategic marketing campaign behind them
677
00:34:34,221 --> 00:34:36,597
Yoana: I mean, yeah, it's like,
it's a marketing campaign for sure
678
00:34:36,598 --> 00:34:39,449
that's, like, continuing to work,
but I also think, like, we as a
679
00:34:39,687 --> 00:34:42,149
population just want it right now.
680
00:34:42,153 --> 00:34:46,442
There's data this, and this
data's on Pinterest trend reports.
681
00:34:46,682 --> 00:34:50,026
Um, but fisherman aesthetic
is also a top trend from 2025.
682
00:34:50,077 --> 00:34:53,767
The Portland Press Herald reported that
the US Google searches for fisherman
683
00:34:53,770 --> 00:34:58,737
aesthetic was up 227% in a year, and
about, like, four million TikTok videos
684
00:34:58,937 --> 00:35:01,059
have been posted under fishermancore.
685
00:35:01,209 --> 00:35:05,831
And what Harper's Bazaar describes it
as, which I love, after us, going out
686
00:35:05,831 --> 00:35:09,475
of summer and going into fall, is that,
this is the cousin of a coastal grandma
687
00:35:09,675 --> 00:35:12,816
And right now there's a bunch
of netted accessories, right?
688
00:35:12,816 --> 00:35:16,321
There's, like, a lot of sardine jewelry
that were tied to coastal grandma.
689
00:35:16,337 --> 00:35:20,520
Like, those small accents might
change, whatever underlies the
690
00:35:20,521 --> 00:35:23,967
fisherman core aesthetic will
always be this sweater, obviously.
691
00:35:23,967 --> 00:35:25,359
Like, it's literally in the name.
692
00:35:25,706 --> 00:35:29,745
And if there, if the accessories that we
pair with it or however we make it more
693
00:35:29,745 --> 00:35:35,083
trendy for the current year changes, like,
this sweater will always be a key part of
694
00:35:35,083 --> 00:35:38,764
that uniform, even to your point of, like,
when it used to be a uniform historically.
695
00:35:38,964 --> 00:35:42,130
It is still a uniform, and as
we're talking about the pace of
696
00:35:42,133 --> 00:35:45,931
modern-day life, and there's almost
this, like romanticization, if you
697
00:35:45,932 --> 00:35:50,336
will, of, like, slower, quieter,
and this sweater exudes that.
698
00:35:50,736 --> 00:35:52,318
Chandler: Yeah, I think that's true.
699
00:35:52,518 --> 00:35:56,285
It's interesting to me that Aran
sweaters ended up being the most
700
00:35:56,317 --> 00:36:00,699
popular of these, but when you look
at how they were used historically,
701
00:36:00,701 --> 00:36:02,899
they're the least functional.
702
00:36:03,099 --> 00:36:04,752
Like, Aran sweaters are cream.
703
00:36:04,752 --> 00:36:05,786
Gansey was navy.
704
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,216
Fair Isle is a lot of bright colors often.
705
00:36:09,351 --> 00:36:11,439
They could be also made of,
like, more neutral browns and
706
00:36:11,441 --> 00:36:14,284
things, but at least busy, which
would help hide staining better.
707
00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:16,331
A cream sweater on a fishing boat
708
00:36:16,431 --> 00:36:18,617
Yoana: That's, that's, that's crazy to me
709
00:36:18,805 --> 00:36:23,246
Chandler: Yeah, because they were like not
actually used the way that they were sold
710
00:36:23,273 --> 00:36:26,964
Yoana: Yeah, the way that the Knives Out
director mentions putting Chris Evans
711
00:36:26,965 --> 00:36:32,153
in a, in an ivory sweater was because
he's super wealthy in the movie, and
712
00:36:32,153 --> 00:36:33,730
he can afford to wear that sweater.
713
00:36:34,030 --> 00:36:38,143
even, even though it originated as
fisherman workwear, it's not that anymore.
714
00:36:38,144 --> 00:36:39,621
I think you kind of alluded to it.
715
00:36:39,821 --> 00:36:44,945
But, it is, it's now transitioned into
a more of, like, an American Ivy style
716
00:36:45,173 --> 00:36:49,799
that's also just a gentler version of
preppy in a way, which is fascinating.
717
00:36:49,999 --> 00:36:54,136
, Ralph Lauren, created a
version of the sweater in 1973.
718
00:36:54,336 --> 00:36:55,823
They introduced his own take.
719
00:36:56,023 --> 00:36:59,391
But if you look at, like, the Ralph
Lauren cable knit, which is just
720
00:36:59,414 --> 00:37:03,162
obviously loosely inspired by an
Aran, that sweater has not changed
721
00:37:03,638 --> 00:37:04,018
Chandler: Mm-mm.
722
00:37:04,218 --> 00:37:04,404
Yoana: It
723
00:37:04,505 --> 00:37:04,907
Chandler: No.
724
00:37:05,107 --> 00:37:05,487
No.
725
00:37:05,687 --> 00:37:08,371
I do think part of where they're
positioned in the market today,
726
00:37:08,371 --> 00:37:13,021
part of what they're doing is kind
of that, like, old money thing,
727
00:37:13,221 --> 00:37:16,166
where it's ambiguous whether or not
you bought that sweater or if it's
728
00:37:16,168 --> 00:37:17,756
been in your family for generations
729
00:37:17,756 --> 00:37:21,072
Yoana: I do wanna highlight just
like two ways that it's changing.
730
00:37:21,105 --> 00:37:23,785
'Cause I think there's a lot
of conversation about how
731
00:37:23,786 --> 00:37:25,022
you're deconstructing it.
732
00:37:25,222 --> 00:37:28,022
I think Jean Paul Gaultier does
some really interesting versions
733
00:37:28,023 --> 00:37:30,678
of this, even back in like 1985.
734
00:37:30,778 --> 00:37:36,489
I found a vintage account that's selling
a Gaultier 1985 knit, and it's so funky.
735
00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:38,279
it has chunky pom-poms on it.
736
00:37:38,300 --> 00:37:40,348
There's like the cable
knit motif running through,
737
00:37:40,993 --> 00:37:43,251
.
Not intended to be functional at all.
738
00:37:43,417 --> 00:37:47,209
It's kind of like the way I would think
about wearing it is if you wanted to go
739
00:37:47,209 --> 00:37:48,998
to like an apres-ski party but be like
740
00:37:49,038 --> 00:37:50,583
sexy ski bunny chic.
741
00:37:50,783 --> 00:37:52,811
That's, that's when
you'd wear this outfit.
742
00:37:53,011 --> 00:37:55,321
not at all in like an Ivy sense.
743
00:37:56,140 --> 00:38:01,702
We talked about public discourse
in TikTok and dupes last time,
744
00:38:02,002 --> 00:38:02,086
Chandler: Mhm
745
00:38:02,293 --> 00:38:05,310
Yoana: and I think there's actually a
really interesting conversation on here.
746
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:10,179
And the last, last thing I'll highlight
is this designer called Sami Miro, She's
747
00:38:10,181 --> 00:38:15,437
a designer that basically takes, vintage
items and upcycles them, and she has
748
00:38:15,438 --> 00:38:19,755
this, like, zero waste design approach
to reincorporate every last scrap of
749
00:38:19,905 --> 00:38:21,777
anything that she buys into a new garment.
750
00:38:21,977 --> 00:38:26,360
And so there's a video of her taking
a vintage fisherman sweater and
751
00:38:26,361 --> 00:38:27,859
she, cuts it up, quite literally.
752
00:38:27,860 --> 00:38:31,541
The video is her cutting it up,
and then she makes it into a
753
00:38:31,552 --> 00:38:35,496
dress, and it's a little bit…
It, it's very, I would say, edgy
754
00:38:35,539 --> 00:38:38,513
But the comments are,
like, so split in half.
755
00:38:38,808 --> 00:38:40,786
Half of them are like, "Please stop.
756
00:38:40,802 --> 00:38:44,548
My heart is breaking as you cut this
sweater." "This hurts my soul." "I
757
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:49,111
gasped out loud, oh my God." And then the
other half are like, "This is so good.
758
00:38:49,311 --> 00:38:55,004
This is so my aesthetic." And like,
almost two versions of this sustainability
759
00:38:55,124 --> 00:38:59,559
discourse coming out because some of them
are like, "Why would you ever cut this up?
760
00:38:59,607 --> 00:39:03,022
Keep the object whole." But at
the same time, she takes it and
761
00:39:03,042 --> 00:39:07,186
reworks it into something that
a different audience might like.
762
00:39:07,386 --> 00:39:08,029
Make of it what you will
763
00:39:08,049 --> 00:39:08,441
Chandler: Yeah.
764
00:39:08,641 --> 00:39:12,457
I think at this point we have to
welcome anything that's keeping
765
00:39:12,514 --> 00:39:13,754
textiles out of landfills.
766
00:39:13,954 --> 00:39:14,623
I think we've reached
767
00:39:15,108 --> 00:39:16,458
Yoana: can't lose with that answer.
768
00:39:16,458 --> 00:39:17,074
You can't
769
00:39:17,074 --> 00:39:19,580
Chandler: Well, I know you said
you bought your Guinness sweater,
770
00:39:19,780 --> 00:39:20,273
Yoana: I did
771
00:39:20,471 --> 00:39:22,660
Chandler: which I don't know if
we can call a fisherman sweater.
772
00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:27,373
Clearly, though, you had an interest
in these given you went to go see them.
773
00:39:27,438 --> 00:39:30,727
So what are your feelings, and how have
they changed now that you've learned more?
774
00:39:30,827 --> 00:39:32,826
Yoana: um, how, what are
my feelings about these?
775
00:39:32,877 --> 00:39:34,329
I don't know if I could ever wear one.
776
00:39:34,529 --> 00:39:37,059
Like, a true… I have a Fair Isle.
777
00:39:37,259 --> 00:39:38,073
I got it.
778
00:39:38,273 --> 00:39:39,493
I wore it twice.
779
00:39:39,544 --> 00:39:41,023
I love the pattern on it.
780
00:39:41,075 --> 00:39:43,204
It just doesn't, it's
not edgy enough for me.
781
00:39:43,234 --> 00:39:45,865
The Aran too, I, like, I really like it.
782
00:39:45,899 --> 00:39:48,242
I feel like I would have
to add an edge to it.
783
00:39:48,442 --> 00:39:50,901
Think there is, like, an underground
aesthetic that we just talked
784
00:39:50,902 --> 00:39:52,263
about a little bit that it carries.
785
00:39:52,305 --> 00:39:54,800
I don't think it's that loud, and
I think there's other ways that I
786
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,938
can tap into that aesthetic that
isn't getting a sweater like this.
787
00:39:58,138 --> 00:40:00,166
but like, I mean, there's
so much meaning behind them.
788
00:40:00,366 --> 00:40:03,429
But, you know, y- I mean, I guess, like
I went to Ireland and I didn't buy one
789
00:40:03,729 --> 00:40:04,071
Chandler: Yeah.
790
00:40:04,271 --> 00:40:04,687
That's a good point
791
00:40:04,987 --> 00:40:07,043
Yoana: Um, and I think it's
'cause I'm trying to buy
792
00:40:07,059 --> 00:40:08,222
things that I know I will wear.
793
00:40:08,422 --> 00:40:12,997
But the one thing I'll say is that it
makes me feel a lot of warmth because I
794
00:40:13,001 --> 00:40:17,405
mentioned that we visited, an old priest
of ours that moved back to Ireland.
795
00:40:17,457 --> 00:40:18,737
Moved back to Galway, actually.
796
00:40:18,738 --> 00:40:22,540
So we, like, drove from Dublin to
Galway, and we visited Paddy, and
797
00:40:25,227 --> 00:40:27,361
He wears these all the time.
798
00:40:27,448 --> 00:40:31,097
Like, every, probably half of the photos
that I'm, have with him where I'm hugging
799
00:40:31,097 --> 00:40:33,148
him, he's wearing one of these sweaters.
800
00:40:33,448 --> 00:40:33,844
Chandler: Yeah
801
00:40:34,144 --> 00:40:35,697
Yoana: it is like, it
makes me think of him.
802
00:40:35,997 --> 00:40:36,354
Chandler: Yeah.
803
00:40:36,554 --> 00:40:38,066
So sweet.
804
00:40:38,266 --> 00:40:38,913
It's so funny.
805
00:40:38,915 --> 00:40:41,647
I feel like if I had to guess which one
of these you would be into, I would've
806
00:40:41,647 --> 00:40:44,789
said Fair Isle, 'cause it is the one
that incorporates the most color.
807
00:40:44,843 --> 00:40:48,438
But I would not think of you
as really being into these.
808
00:40:48,635 --> 00:40:50,176
Um, I love them
809
00:40:50,636 --> 00:40:50,656
Yoana: Ya.
810
00:40:50,816 --> 00:40:53,051
Chandler: Which I feel like
is not at all surprising.
811
00:40:53,321 --> 00:40:55,013
But I'm weird about knits in general.
812
00:40:55,019 --> 00:41:01,042
Like, I'll still occasionally buy
cashmere if I feel like I stand
813
00:41:01,042 --> 00:41:04,911
behind the, you know, quality
and the content of the cashmere.
814
00:41:04,945 --> 00:41:09,595
Um, but knits especially… Like,
this is Nick's that he gave to me
815
00:41:09,596 --> 00:41:11,096
because he didn't like how it fit him.
816
00:41:11,296 --> 00:41:14,647
I don't think I would purchase one
of these from, like, a big box label.
817
00:41:14,847 --> 00:41:18,117
I'm weird about knits, I think
because I want to be a knitter, and
818
00:41:18,117 --> 00:41:19,663
I have so many friends that are.
819
00:41:19,863 --> 00:41:22,497
Handmade sweaters are,
like… I need them.
820
00:41:22,697 --> 00:41:25,089
And I… Like, I would never ask
a friend to knit me a sweater,
821
00:41:25,157 --> 00:41:26,352
because that's a crazy ask.
822
00:41:26,352 --> 00:41:28,020
It literally takes so many hours.
823
00:41:28,021 --> 00:41:28,794
I cross-stitch.
824
00:41:28,841 --> 00:41:29,717
I understand.
825
00:41:29,808 --> 00:41:32,294
I've had people ask me to cross-stitch
some things, and I'm like, "Are
826
00:41:32,294 --> 00:41:36,396
you insane?" I have a weird
emotional attachment to handmade
827
00:41:36,596 --> 00:41:37,876
garments and things like that.
828
00:41:37,965 --> 00:41:41,356
Um, so I would wanna learn how
to knit and make myself one.
829
00:41:41,556 --> 00:41:43,489
I think that's how one would
have to come into my life
830
00:41:43,789 --> 00:41:45,746
Yoana: I love that I w- yeah.
831
00:41:45,792 --> 00:41:47,318
And if you will, is the thing.
832
00:41:47,518 --> 00:41:49,542
Chandler: I know
eventually when I find time
833
00:41:49,543 --> 00:41:52,569
Yoana: "Yes, yes, yes, I will
actually do this," and I agree.
834
00:41:52,769 --> 00:41:57,086
can see you, I can see you for, like,
one holiday card having all of the kids
835
00:41:57,086 --> 00:42:02,665
wear, and you and Nick wear hand-knit
arans done by Chandler, or Fair isles
836
00:42:02,831 --> 00:42:03,397
Chandler: Hmm.
837
00:42:03,522 --> 00:42:04,041
Yoana: crazy.
838
00:42:04,241 --> 00:42:05,356
Chandler: I would love that for me.
839
00:42:05,459 --> 00:42:07,107
That would be really, really impressive.
840
00:42:07,307 --> 00:42:08,402
Yoana: I think you can do it
841
00:42:08,602 --> 00:42:09,895
Chandler: It's gonna be 15 years.
842
00:42:10,095 --> 00:42:10,619
Yoana: I don't know.
843
00:42:10,819 --> 00:42:11,616
I think it's fun.
844
00:42:11,816 --> 00:42:12,551
Chandler: Amazing.
845
00:42:12,551 --> 00:42:13,273
Well, that's it.
846
00:42:13,286 --> 00:42:15,166
That's fisherman sweaters.
847
00:42:15,166 --> 00:42:16,734
Yoana: That's fisherman sweaters
848
00:42:17,034 --> 00:42:18,942
Chandler: Stick around
if you wanna yap sesh.
849
00:42:19,043 --> 00:42:20,354
Otherwise, thanks for listening
850
00:42:20,654 --> 00:42:21,174
Yoana: We love ya!
851
00:42:21,374 --> 00:42:21,600
Chandler: Love you.
852
00:42:26,526 --> 00:42:29,599
Okay, wanna share some
marginally informed takes?
853
00:42:29,899 --> 00:42:30,596
Yoana: Let's do it
854
00:42:30,772 --> 00:42:35,308
Chandler: this episode is making me
think a lot about old money aesthetic
855
00:42:35,569 --> 00:42:39,165
and kind of, quiet luxury, 'cause I
think that's what these became even
856
00:42:39,166 --> 00:42:43,139
though obviously originally they were
literally for, being covered in saltwater.
857
00:42:43,339 --> 00:42:47,890
So I'm curious, what your actual
take on old money overall is, and,
858
00:42:47,891 --> 00:42:49,437
like, would you wear that aesthetic?
859
00:42:49,490 --> 00:42:51,050
Are you a quiet luxury girl?
860
00:42:51,335 --> 00:42:52,913
Do you like it on other people?
861
00:42:53,113 --> 00:42:53,594
What do you think?
862
00:42:53,894 --> 00:42:56,782
Yoana: It's so hard, um, because
I don't think I'm a quiet
863
00:42:56,782 --> 00:42:58,954
luxury girl for most things
864
00:42:59,254 --> 00:42:59,833
Chandler: Well, okay.
865
00:43:00,033 --> 00:43:02,159
To be fair, you're Bulgarian.
866
00:43:02,427 --> 00:43:05,265
Like, why would you be quiet luxury?
867
00:43:05,465 --> 00:43:08,135
I feel like if you were,
that would be kind of insane
868
00:43:08,435 --> 00:43:08,757
Yoana: I…
869
00:43:08,777 --> 00:43:11,363
Chandler: That is so not Eastern
European, it's not even funny
870
00:43:11,563 --> 00:43:14,727
Yoana: I think the only time that
I actually like quiet luxury is if
871
00:43:14,728 --> 00:43:19,415
I'm going into an office setting and
I wanna wear something nice, but I
872
00:43:19,429 --> 00:43:21,033
don't wanna feed into logo mania.
873
00:43:21,049 --> 00:43:23,841
Like, I think I buy into quiet
luxury when it's, like, bags.
874
00:43:24,041 --> 00:43:26,747
Like, I hate to say it, I just
don't, I don't know if I… Uh,
875
00:43:26,747 --> 00:43:32,467
as much as I used to love The
Dior Saddle, I wanted it so bad.
876
00:43:32,667 --> 00:43:34,794
I c- I feel like it's
too in your face now.
877
00:43:34,794 --> 00:43:35,559
Like, I can't get it I
878
00:43:35,748 --> 00:43:38,354
Chandler: Mm. But, like, you
would never buy something from The
879
00:43:38,354 --> 00:43:40,178
Row, like a sweater or something
880
00:43:40,478 --> 00:43:42,593
Yoana: Like, it's, it's really hard
to answer that question when I'm
881
00:43:42,594 --> 00:43:44,460
not operating in that price point.
882
00:43:44,660 --> 00:43:46,497
Um, maybe
883
00:43:46,607 --> 00:43:48,125
Chandler: I feel like that's
part the conversation here too,
884
00:43:48,126 --> 00:43:52,592
though, is like this aesthetic has
infiltrated the middle class market.
885
00:43:52,792 --> 00:43:57,847
So it's not really like quiet luxury if
you know you know vibe anymore because
886
00:43:57,851 --> 00:44:00,036
now anybody can buy it at any price point
887
00:44:00,236 --> 00:44:03,876
Yoana: That's, I think in the middle
market, it's almost not even like lux-
888
00:44:03,917 --> 00:44:07,768
it's like, yeah, to your point, if someone
our age was doing it, don't even think
889
00:44:07,768 --> 00:44:13,898
it would be like, "I am so wealthy that
I don't care about spending like $600 on
890
00:44:13,898 --> 00:44:18,032
a like plain T-shirt." It would almost
be like, it's like culture signaling.
891
00:44:18,318 --> 00:44:21,564
Like to me, if you're our age and
wearing something from The Row,
892
00:44:21,764 --> 00:44:24,443
with all due respect, it's probably
because like you want people to know
893
00:44:24,443 --> 00:44:26,178
that you know what The Row is, not
894
00:44:26,179 --> 00:44:27,656
Chandler: Mhm
895
00:44:27,714 --> 00:44:29,689
Yoana: because you have the money to
shell out on that expensive of a T-shirt.
896
00:44:29,889 --> 00:44:30,086
Chandler: Mhm.
897
00:44:30,286 --> 00:44:31,923
Yoana: And you're probably
getting it from The RealReal
898
00:44:32,123 --> 00:44:32,823
Chandler: Probably
899
00:44:33,023 --> 00:44:34,563
Yoana: Which is like, hey, I've done that.
900
00:44:34,573 --> 00:44:35,282
Like, I'm not
901
00:44:35,899 --> 00:44:36,471
Chandler: Yeah.
902
00:44:36,671 --> 00:44:42,928
I, okay, I think my take is if you
were buying Loro Piana, The Row, I
903
00:44:42,928 --> 00:44:46,450
don't, like any of these quiet luxury
vibe brands, and you are wearing
904
00:44:46,452 --> 00:44:50,738
it off the rack and not getting it
tailored, that is my problem with this.
905
00:44:50,938 --> 00:44:54,731
To me, true quiet luxury old
money, everything you own
906
00:44:54,770 --> 00:44:56,334
should fit you perfectly.
907
00:44:56,405 --> 00:44:59,696
You should have very few pieces in your
closet that are not tailored to you.
908
00:44:59,896 --> 00:45:02,898
So like, I think that's a crazy
way to walk around, wearing
909
00:45:02,910 --> 00:45:06,514
stuff that expensive that is not
absolutely perfectly tailored to you
910
00:45:06,814 --> 00:45:09,962
Yoana: If you had the amount of
money where you could be getting
911
00:45:09,978 --> 00:45:11,800
things like this, n- I don't know.
912
00:45:11,893 --> 00:45:15,933
I mean, like, let's say you bu- are buying
these off the rack Would you tailor them?
913
00:45:16,212 --> 00:45:16,493
Or do you
914
00:45:16,512 --> 00:45:17,266
Chandler: Absolutely
915
00:45:17,466 --> 00:45:19,805
Yoana: But at that point, wouldn't
you just buy something that is,
916
00:45:19,806 --> 00:45:24,462
like, custom-made for you from your
seamstress that doesn't have a label?
917
00:45:24,662 --> 00:45:26,391
Chandler: I mean, I would
love to be doing that as well.
918
00:45:26,392 --> 00:45:30,760
But let's say I am ultra wealthy,
- clearly I'm, like, extremely chic,
919
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,227
so, like, I'm getting invited to
The Row fashion shows, obviously.
920
00:45:34,491 --> 00:45:37,724
Um, and they send something down the
runway that I'm like, "Wow, I love that.
921
00:45:37,741 --> 00:45:40,998
I'm gonna buy it." I will go buy it,
and then I'm gonna have it tailored.
922
00:45:41,016 --> 00:45:45,079
Maybe I'll use an in-house tailor
at The Row, but, like, I am going
923
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,948
to have everything I own will be
fitted perfectly to me every time
924
00:45:48,248 --> 00:45:48,559
Yoana: Yeah.
925
00:45:48,759 --> 00:45:51,257
That gets tricky with changing body types
926
00:45:51,457 --> 00:45:55,200
Chandler: Oh, well, if I have that
much money, then I have, um, you know,
927
00:45:55,400 --> 00:46:00,304
my doctor who gives me micro doses of
GLP-1s, and I'm on my, my personal chef
928
00:46:00,305 --> 00:46:06,057
and my trainer, and, uh, it's written
into my, uh, prenup that I will stay
929
00:46:06,057 --> 00:46:11,342
within a five pounds of weight range,
lest I lose my, uh, half of the wealth.
930
00:46:11,342 --> 00:46:13,078
So yeah, we've got all that locked down.
931
00:46:15,711 --> 00:46:18,952
Yoana: Uh, so there's no
variability in how you look
932
00:46:18,969 --> 00:46:20,227
Chandler: No, obviously not.
933
00:46:20,527 --> 00:46:22,044
Yoana: Yeah, I mean, it's not a bad take.
934
00:46:22,324 --> 00:46:24,011
I would I don't know.
935
00:46:24,211 --> 00:46:25,931
think quiet luxury is all fake now,
936
00:46:26,231 --> 00:46:26,836
Chandler: It is
937
00:46:27,136 --> 00:46:28,159
Yoana: It's just so, it's fake.
938
00:46:28,171 --> 00:46:29,895
It's just, it's like virtue signaling
939
00:46:29,895 --> 00:46:32,112
Chandler: Unfortunately, I
do think it's become that.
940
00:46:32,312 --> 00:46:35,980
Um, also though, like it's, to be
honest, if you had told me like, "Yeah,
941
00:46:35,982 --> 00:46:39,430
I love it," I would've been like,
"You love bright colors, you love
942
00:46:39,630 --> 00:46:43,264
statements," and I feel like that is
the opposite of what quiet luxury is.
943
00:46:43,463 --> 00:46:47,597
It's like all basically capsule
wardrobe dressing, which you don't do.
944
00:46:47,597 --> 00:46:51,282
I think p- a lot of it is just like
personal style preferences, which I
945
00:46:51,290 --> 00:46:55,334
don't think this falls into yours, but, I
think there's so much room for consumers
946
00:46:55,337 --> 00:46:56,611
to be confused these days, right?
947
00:46:56,625 --> 00:47:00,670
'Cause like you go on, let's say Loro
Piana, you look at the fabric content,
948
00:47:00,670 --> 00:47:02,213
it's like 100% cashmere, great.
949
00:47:02,413 --> 00:47:04,423
Then you go onto Quince
950
00:47:04,723 --> 00:47:04,733
Yoana: Mhm
951
00:47:04,879 --> 00:47:07,140
Chandler: and you see a sweater
that looks very similar and it
952
00:47:07,215 --> 00:47:09,132
also says it's 100% cashmere.
953
00:47:09,418 --> 00:47:11,722
How are you as a consumer to
know that there's a difference
954
00:47:11,722 --> 00:47:12,560
between those two items?
955
00:47:12,860 --> 00:47:16,482
Yoana: No, like you, it's, it's purely the
marketing then and like who's wearing it.
956
00:47:16,782 --> 00:47:16,946
Chandler: Yeah.
957
00:47:17,054 --> 00:47:20,786
And there is a difference between them,
but like, I don't think that there's
958
00:47:20,786 --> 00:47:24,885
an easy way to know that anymore
as a consumer, 'cause it's not how
959
00:47:24,886 --> 00:47:29,777
much it costs that's gonna delineate
the quality So it's, I don't know.
960
00:47:29,777 --> 00:47:31,153
It's, it's gotten very saturated.
961
00:47:31,155 --> 00:47:35,140
I do wear a lot of neutrals, but
I also would not say I, like,
962
00:47:35,335 --> 00:47:37,509
attempt to dress quiet luxury.
963
00:47:37,570 --> 00:47:40,684
I mostly just wear things
that I like and feel good in.
964
00:47:40,783 --> 00:47:42,446
I'm not trying to, like,
sell that aesthetic
965
00:47:42,746 --> 00:47:45,257
Yoana: Do you think there's that many
people who still are trying to do that?
966
00:47:45,302 --> 00:47:47,940
I feel like that was a Sofia
Richie craze, candidly.
967
00:47:48,140 --> 00:47:49,409
God, I need to stop saying that word.
968
00:47:49,609 --> 00:47:52,936
But I think, I mean, people dressed quite
luxury before Sofia Richie, but I feel
969
00:47:52,936 --> 00:47:56,577
like she had such a big 180 from how she
used to dress when she was dating Scott to
970
00:47:56,578 --> 00:47:59,899
then, like, when she changed, that's when
people freaked out and were like, "Wait.
971
00:47:59,910 --> 00:48:00,602
Oh my God.
972
00:48:00,603 --> 00:48:04,095
This is a thing." Um, 'cause
The Row existed before Sofia
973
00:48:04,118 --> 00:48:05,021
Richie dressed like that.
974
00:48:05,321 --> 00:48:05,331
Chandler: Ya
975
00:48:05,475 --> 00:48:07,379
Yoana: if you bought The Row then, fine.
976
00:48:07,579 --> 00:48:07,866
Fine
977
00:48:08,066 --> 00:48:10,937
Chandler: I think it was
informed by her 100%.
978
00:48:11,035 --> 00:48:14,370
I think, though, a lot of people
are still buying into that
979
00:48:14,670 --> 00:48:14,881
Yoana: Yeah.
980
00:48:14,981 --> 00:48:18,641
I think, I mean, what honestly w- so
irrational how we spend our money.
981
00:48:18,791 --> 00:48:22,426
If I was to go into a vintage store
tomorrow that I hadn't researched on,
982
00:48:22,426 --> 00:48:27,330
like, a two-hour drive up to Maine, saw
a leather jacket with some really sick
983
00:48:27,362 --> 00:48:32,125
patches from, the 1900s, and it had
literal, like, burns from cigarettes
984
00:48:32,127 --> 00:48:36,306
on it and it was $2,000 and it kinda
like smelled old, I'd probably buy it.
985
00:48:36,506 --> 00:48:37,831
That's, that makes no sense.
986
00:48:38,081 --> 00:48:38,810
That's crazy.
987
00:48:39,027 --> 00:48:39,961
I'd probably buy it
988
00:48:40,261 --> 00:48:42,111
Chandler: For you that
makes sense in my brain.
989
00:48:42,411 --> 00:48:42,970
Yoana: But like, if
990
00:48:43,055 --> 00:48:44,594
Chandler: I feel like I wouldn't.
991
00:48:44,894 --> 00:48:45,322
Yoana: yeah
992
00:48:45,622 --> 00:48:52,161
Chandler: would be… But if I came across
a bias cut slip that was 100% silk, I
993
00:48:52,162 --> 00:48:58,044
would buy it for $400, even though I
could get pretty much the same one new.
994
00:48:58,197 --> 00:49:00,509
But I would buy the
vintage one for more money,
995
00:49:00,709 --> 00:49:00,972
Yoana: So
996
00:49:01,117 --> 00:49:01,945
Chandler: is nonsense
997
00:49:02,129 --> 00:49:04,556
Yoana: you're willing to
spend money on your style.
998
00:49:04,756 --> 00:49:07,947
Mm. Okay, I'm gonna maybe say my
hottest take of this episode, and
999
00:49:07,948 --> 00:49:09,114
then you tell me what you think.
1000
00:49:09,214 --> 00:49:12,864
Sometimes I think that if you're making
a conscious decision to only spend your
1001
00:49:12,864 --> 00:49:17,396
money on dressing quiet luxury, it might
mean that, like, you haven't actually
1002
00:49:17,396 --> 00:49:20,628
explored your personal style enough to
know what it is, to know what you wanna
1003
00:49:20,628 --> 00:49:23,821
spend your money on, so you're spending
your money on a specific aesthetic
1004
00:49:23,963 --> 00:49:26,837
And you just decide, like, is easy.
1005
00:49:27,037 --> 00:49:28,254
This makes sense to me.
1006
00:49:28,454 --> 00:49:29,440
I'm gonna do this.
1007
00:49:29,656 --> 00:49:31,894
I'm gonna spend my money on this,
and I'm gonna do it well." Fine.
1008
00:49:32,094 --> 00:49:34,891
But I think if you actually spend
the time to get to know your style
1009
00:49:35,072 --> 00:49:37,363
and that's something that you
value, I don't think you're really
1010
00:49:37,363 --> 00:49:39,491
buying any, any one aesthetic at all
1011
00:49:39,491 --> 00:49:43,854
Chandler: I think if you have fully
gotten to know your own style, you're not
1012
00:49:44,054 --> 00:49:46,434
purchasing entirely within one aesthetic.
1013
00:49:46,437 --> 00:49:47,577
I think that is true.
1014
00:49:47,777 --> 00:49:50,415
I do think there are some people
that actually their personal style
1015
00:49:50,420 --> 00:49:54,895
happens to align with what's been
marketed as old money, quiet luxury.
1016
00:49:55,095 --> 00:49:56,896
My main thing, though, is, like, I think
1017
00:49:56,896 --> 00:49:58,417
There's a few camps people dress in.
1018
00:49:58,425 --> 00:49:59,585
There's, like, three main ones.
1019
00:49:59,595 --> 00:50:01,112
It's, like, people trend chase.
1020
00:50:01,312 --> 00:50:02,685
They wear what they see
other people wearing.
1021
00:50:03,052 --> 00:50:06,997
People have their own identified
personal style that they wear.
1022
00:50:07,197 --> 00:50:10,171
And then there's some people who
dress for their body type, and, like,
1023
00:50:10,371 --> 00:50:13,952
that's really kind of what they're
wearing, and it's, like, it's the same
1024
00:50:13,952 --> 00:50:17,010
silhouette repeated or at least a few
silhouettes that they're comfortable in.
1025
00:50:17,210 --> 00:50:20,625
And so it might be clothes that are
across a few different aesthetics
1026
00:50:20,628 --> 00:50:23,974
that all fit within that silhouette
that they think flatters them.
1027
00:50:24,174 --> 00:50:26,645
And so I think you have people
across all three of those that
1028
00:50:26,645 --> 00:50:30,278
are buying quiet luxury pieces
but for entirely different reasons
1029
00:50:30,578 --> 00:50:34,228
Yoana: I think next time we should talk
about dressing for your body type because
1030
00:50:34,510 --> 00:50:37,440
spoiler alert, it's something that I
think Chandler does incredibly well.
1031
00:50:37,655 --> 00:50:38,004
, um,
1032
00:50:38,213 --> 00:50:38,843
Chandler: And I yell at you about it
1033
00:50:39,209 --> 00:50:41,231
Yoana: yeah, it's just hard
for me to visualize, okay?
1034
00:50:41,431 --> 00:50:43,501
Um, st- still working on it.
1035
00:50:43,686 --> 00:50:44,381
Uh,
1036
00:50:44,503 --> 00:50:45,752
Chandler: Well, we'll circle back there.
1037
00:50:46,052 --> 00:50:46,551
Yoana: okay.
1038
00:50:46,751 --> 00:50:47,217
Love you.
1039
00:50:47,417 --> 00:50:47,437
Chandler: Love you.
1040
00:50:47,437 --> 00:50:47,447
Bye
1041
00:50:48,557 --> 00:50:48,761
Yoana: Bye.
1042
00:50:50,657 --> 00:50:52,374
Do you wanna welcome us back?
1043
00:50:52,574 --> 00:50:54,152
Chandler: Is that all the clicking?
1044
00:50:54,252 --> 00:50:54,945
Yoana: Was I clicking?
1045
00:50:55,145 --> 00:50:56,738
Chandler: I hear… Yeah, it
sounds like you're clicking
1046
00:50:57,038 --> 00:50:59,733
Yoana: Well, I just clicked,
but I'm, I'm not clicking now
1047
00:50:59,933 --> 00:51:01,513
Chandler: There's so much weird noise
1048
00:51:01,513 --> 00:51:02,098
Yoana: Right now?
1049
00:51:02,398 --> 00:51:03,083
Chandler: Now there's not.
1050
00:51:03,147 --> 00:51:04,978
But I feel like every time
you move I can hear it.
1051
00:51:04,979 --> 00:51:06,888
Is it, like, your wrist
on the desk or something?
1052
00:51:06,988 --> 00:51:10,208
Yoana: The only thing that I'll do is
like, okay, tell me if you can hear this
1053
00:51:10,508 --> 00:51:10,978
Chandler: Yes.
1054
00:51:11,178 --> 00:51:12,069
It's really loud.
1055
00:51:12,071 --> 00:51:13,018
It's bizarre
1056
00:51:13,218 --> 00:51:16,723
' Yoana: Cause my mic is closer to me
than it usually is What if I went here?
1057
00:51:16,923 --> 00:51:17,297
Can you hear
1058
00:51:17,510 --> 00:51:18,066
Chandler: Not as much.
1059
00:51:18,266 --> 00:51:18,620
Okay.
1060
00:51:18,861 --> 00:51:19,285
Sorry.
1061
00:51:19,585 --> 00:51:21,135
Yoana: Oh, yeah, fair.
1062
00:51:21,926 --> 00:51:23,410
let's, let's run this thing