Season 8 Episode 9 Queenship pt 2 Reina, Madre, Imperio: El Legado de la Reina Isabella y su linaje

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Welcome back everyone to Rediscovering latinidd Season eight, episode nine.
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I'm Edward, I'm Briar Rose, and I'm Jalisa.
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And yesterday, April twenty second, someone had a big birthday,
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Queen Isabel of Castilla. It was her five hundred and
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seventy fifth birthday. Doesn't look a day over four hundred,
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and I was thinking, you know, Isabel La Catolica, she
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was a very accomplished woman, one of the most accomplished
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women of her day. Her daughters were very accomplished. Her
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granddaughters were very accomplished. You may have heard of a
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couple of them, her daughter Catherine of Aragon, her granddaughter
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Letting marry. So I was thinking, wouldn't it be great
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to discuss this female line of very accomplished royals and
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have back our queenship guests. So we're very lucky to
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have our queenship scholars back. Ellie and Susan. I will
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introduce them both. Doctor Elena Woodacre is a reader in
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Renaissance history at the University of Winchester. She is a
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specialist in queenship and royal studies. Her books include Queens
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and Queenship, and she is the co editor of the
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Routledge History of Monarchy. She has her own podcasts, the
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Royal Studies Podcast Ellie, thanks so much for joining us.
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Thanks so much, it's great to be back.
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Wonderful and Susan Abernethy has a degree in history and
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is a member of the Rocky Mountain Medieval and Renaissance
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Association and the Historical Association in Britain. Her blog, The
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Freelance History Writer has been continuously publishing historical articles since
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twenty twelve, with an emphasis on European tutor, Medieval, Renaissance,
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Early Modern and women's history. She published her second book
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in January, The Formidable Women Who Shaped Medieval Europe, Power
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and Patronage at the Burgundian Court. She's also the author
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of Charles the Second's Portuguese Queen, The Legacy of Catherine
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of Braganza. Susan, welcome back.
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Thanks for having me back.
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It's wonderful. We are going to be talking roughly a
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century fourteen fifty to fifteen sixty in Europe. I don't
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know if it was a great time to be alive,
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but it's definitely a dramatic time in European history. There's
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a reason why so many TV series are made of
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this era. We have these wonderfully dysfunctional dynasties that ruled
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Western Europe, the Tutors, the Valois, the Borgias, the Habsburgs,
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and we're going to talk about the House of Trastama
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very soon. These were family members fighting each other for power,
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poisoning each other, marrying each other in stomach churning incest.
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And on top of it all, we had these hulking
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gorilla men, these kings with huge personalities and huge armies.
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Henry the Eighth, Francis the I, Fernando ab adagn the Borgia, Pope,
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Charles the Fifth, or Carlos Quino. The list goes on
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and on. And these men have, these huge looming men
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have such a gravitational pull to history of this era.
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We could have had a whole discussion on any one
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of these kings. Still not address, you know, still still
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have stuff to talk about leftover. But I want to try,
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if possible, today to put these men to the side.
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Let's talk about their Let's talk about the mothers, the wives,
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the daughters. Let's talk about the women behind these royal families.
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So the first question for both of you, Ellie and
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Susan what do we learn since since you're both involved
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with queen ship studies, what do we learn from studying
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the queens and princesses of this period that we don't
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get from other sources when we're just looking at these huge,
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lurking men.
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Yeah, no, I mean this period.
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It's quite interesting because this period is often kind of
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called the Monstrous Regiment of Women period because of John
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Knox's very famous pamphlet The First Blast of Trumpet against
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a Monstrous Regiment of Women, when he was kind of
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railing against female rule. Now, it's really easy to read
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that out of context and think that he was just
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reacting to kind of powerful women and just didn't like
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powerful women. He's actually writing a pamphlet that, excuse me,
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is really geared towards three Catholic queens that he had
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a beef with because he was an ardent Protestant, So
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to be a little bit careful with that. But certainly
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this was a period when there were a lot of
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powerful women. It is important to recognize that it's not unique.
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I mean, there's a lot of powerful women in the
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medieval period. There's a lot of powerful women in the
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eighteenth century, and is not unique to you Europe. In fact,
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there's more ruling women in Indonesia in this period than
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there are in Europe, oddly enough. But there are some
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really really dynamic queens in this period, some really well
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known queens, obviously Isabel La Cacabolica, Elizabeth the I, you know,
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Mary Tudor, Mary Queen of Scotts, Margaret of Austria.
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You know, the list goes on and on. So there's
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a lot.
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Of exceptionally interesting I think queens in this period, and
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that's what makes it so exciting.
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Yeah.
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Plus there was a little bit of upheople like with
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religion too. I think that enters into it with the Reformation.
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So I want to first talk briefly about is Lacatelka's mother,
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because she's not well known, but her life has a
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little bit of foreboding for the lives of her female descendants,
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so she's not nicely called by some historical sources Isabelle
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the Mad. Isabella Portugal developed melancholy after she gave birth
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to Isabelle, so maybe postpartum depression. Others have said maybe schizophrenia.
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She was basically isolated for most of her adult life
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because of this, and eventually became Senile. I'm sure decades
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of being kept alone will impact your mental health and
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I can't help. But contrast, you know, roughly the same time,
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France had a king Charles the Six, who was killing
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his own courtiers, was convinced he he was made out
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of glass and would shatter if you touched him. Like,
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why is it that these queens and princesses they're being
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you know, cast aside if they're moody or grumpy, but
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you can have you know, a stark, raving king and
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they accommodate him.
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Yeah, I mean I think we'd been a little bit careful.
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I mean, mad kings do get shut away as well.
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Look at George the Third, right, so he was definitely
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having to be kind of removed from the scene, and
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I actually kind of had a subject to really kind
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of harsh regime of treatment, bless him.
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So I don't think it's unique to queens, but there is.
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I think it's really more I think we see more
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of an issue, certainly in terms of the way that Wana,
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the so called La Loca, is treated, right because there's
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a real discussion about whether she was really loca or
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whether she was effectively pushed aside because first her husband
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and then her father wanted to you know, gain the
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power that she had, and effectively she remains co ruler
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of Castile with her son Charles the fifth, until she
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dies in fifteen fifty five, but she spends a lot
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of her reign in thordarcias. So you know, again, whether
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she's she's loca or not, you know, again, you know,
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I think it kind of serves the purposes of the
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men in her family to kind of quietly push her
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to one side.
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But you know, you're right to kind of note that.
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You know, perhaps you know Isabella of Portugal, you know,
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was was kind of sidelined because of her mental health.
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But again, you know Charles the sixth again, you know,
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he was in and out of lucidity, and then periods
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in which he was not lucid. He was not on
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the scene, you know, and so so yeah, so I think,
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you know.
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It's a difficult one.
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Certainly, our understanding of mental health and treatments for mental
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health today are very different to understandings of kind of
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what that entailed and how to deal with it in
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the kind of Middle Ages and early modern periods. So yeah,
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it can seem it can seem a bit harsh to
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our eyes. Definitely, I completely agree.
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Yeah, And I think that the men wanted to, you know,
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enforce their patriarchal control over these women. Sometimes they wanted
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to ensure that the heirs, any kind of airs that
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were born from these women were legitimate, because if they weren't,
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it could cause a problem for the legitimate kings. They
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also could preserve the property that they owned and keep
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it in the family, and it created you know, political
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stability because they restricted the female autonomy and potential disruption
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to the governance.
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Yeah, that's that's that's a great point about legitimacy. Poor
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Isabelle of Catholica even to hold her throne, right, she's
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she's fighting against her niece who the mother may have
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been adulteress, may have not. We we won't know. And
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and it's interesting too, So she goes off like a
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really spirited teenager. Mary's for Fernando. This this this this
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Aragonese prince. He grew up with his older half siblings
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like battling their father and being in prison and dying
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in prison. Clearly traumatic childhoods. Do we do we have
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any sense of whether of how Isabelle and Fernando, you know,
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being raised with this utter dysfunctional families. Like how how
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were were they impacted by these childhood struggles.
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That's a really interesting question.
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I mean, I think most royal families are incredibly dysfunctional
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in terms of how we kind of measure them in.
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A modern way. And certainly, you know, most royal you know.
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Men and women have really unusual childhoods from our perspective.
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They don't really have time with the nuclear family.
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They're often raised by you know, teams of servants and
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governors and governesses and sometimes sent to other countries as well,
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you know. So yeah, I mean, all of this must
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have impacted their experience of kind of growing up. But certainly,
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you know, I do appreciate that that what you're saying,
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and I'm so glad you brought in the situation, Novara,
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because that is that that is that that that is
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really dysfunctional family going on there.
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But yes, I'm sure it did impact them in some way.
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Although you know, Ferdinand and Isabelle I think created an
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incredibly effective kind of personal and politic partner political partnership,
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and you know, built effectively the Spanish the foundations for
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the Spanish Golden Age, so you know, clearly they were
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able to rise above that challenge.
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Yeah, maybe they just saw what had happened and they
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wanted to rise above that. They didn't want to repeat that.
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And I also I like to say sometimes that Isabelle
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acted like a man, like if you look at what
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she did, any Spanish king would have done the things
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that she had done, and she actually got away with it.
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So you have to admire that strength of personality that
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she had. And I think that was partly because of
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her family situation.
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Yeah, do you mind get And yeah, that makes sense
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because she had to step up in this dysfunctional family
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and like, like, like we said in the last episode
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where the pants, can you talk a little more Susan
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about how Isabelle is acting like a man through her actions?
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Well, just the way she managed her government. I mean,
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she was an administrative powerhouse, and I'm sure she had
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people behind her to back her up, you know, bishops
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and secretaries and things like that, but she pretty much
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handled the administration of the government and then Ferdinand handled
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the armies. He would go out and fight, and then
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you know, she started she wanted to be the Catholic
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monarch and did all these things like the Reconquista she is.
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You know, they established the Spanish Inquisition, they expo expelled
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the non Christians, they defended the papacy, and they sponsored
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Christian expansion such as what Christopher Columbus did. That whole
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thing was to get more Christians. So these are things
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that are really formidable. And she did these things just
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like what a man, a male king would do.
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Sure, and I didn't realize that they had such a
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such a clean divide of what they were taken care of.
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That's the I had no idea about that. I want
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to get into Columbus and the expulsion of the Jews soon,
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but first first I want to ask, you know, Isabelle
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as a mother, she's renowned for giving her daughters this
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humanist education, you know, the best of the Renaissance thinkers,
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really best education a child could have gotten at that period,
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let alone a daughter. So is do we suspect that
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this is her like it was this her idea or
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was this kind of just a growing trend among royal children.
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Now, this was definitely something that Isabelle was incredibly passionate about.
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And I one of the things that she was really
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keen on is that her daughters would have as good
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an education as her son Juan, and they are you
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know againya, she brings in humanists from Italy, she brings
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in Beatrice Gallin. Though Isabelle is also aware that her
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own Latin is not brilliant, so she wants her daughters.
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To have excellent Latin.
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And certainly later I mean Juan Luis Vivev and his
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education of a Christian woman, not notes about how her
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daughters were like renowned across Europe because they spoke several languages,
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they were fluent in Latin, They were incredibly erudite. You know,
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these these were women who were incredibly well educated. I
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think sometimes people look at like Elizabeth the First and
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think that, oh, she was extremely unusual. And I think
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Elizabeth the First obviously was, you know, was a very
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good scholar. But you know, you look at the daughters
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of is Isabelle Acatolica, there's certainly a pattern there for
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an excellent education. So yeah, and certainly Katherine of Arragon
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again is keen in turn that her own daughter Mary
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has an equally strong education.
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It was it was kind of a trend at that
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time because of what the humanists were writing about.
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And a lot of the men were like Thomas Moore's.
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Daughters too, they were well educated. So it was pretty
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common at that time, a trend at that.
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Time interesting, I guess, just to follow up, I wasn't
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aware that there was a growing acceptance of educating your
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daughters at this moment. But what kind of roles did
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they expect these better educated daughters to take, Like maybe
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someone like Sir Thomas Moore versus someone like Isabelle la Catolica.
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Obviously the daughters are going to be different trajectories, but
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you know, what are there what are these educated people's
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expectations for for for for their daughters with this humanist Yeah.
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Well it's actually I mean one of the things that
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humanists were generally really keen on education full stop.
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That was kind of a huge, kind of part of
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the whole movement.
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And you've got Pigolomini and other humanist scholars writing educational
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treatises effect and this is where the humanities comes from,
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this is where.
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The liberal arts comes from. It's all from the humanists.
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And certainly there are there are discussions about educating women
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and and and again, you know, some are some of
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the humanists are more positive on this than others.
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But certainly we.
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See female humanist scholars in this era, like Lauris Sireta,
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et cetera. So it's not these these it's not like
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something that's only for queens. This is something that again
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we see, you know, women engaging and becoming incredibly strong
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kind of humanist scholars. So you know, I think, I think, yeah,
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obviously queens and royal women have a particular advantage perhaps
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in that regard, particularly if they have mothers like Isabella
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Katolica that's really keen to kind of ensure that they
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have a good education. But certainly we see a lot
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of noble women I guess you could say elite women
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across Europe also benefiting from a humanist education and becoming
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really strong scholars in their own right.
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So now let's get into Christopher Columbus. Americans, especially, like
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you know, people my age and older, we learned these
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weird stories like Columbus comes in like this fuller brush man,
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this little conniving salesman convinces Isabella to sell her jewels
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and he like stands an egg on its end, you know,
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utter garbage. But you know, these these these strange stories
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get passed down to us. So what in reality, how
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how how did Columbus approach Isabella of Cristilla and what
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did she see in Columbus.
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I think you context is really really important here. So obviously,
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you know, there's two things that are going on. One
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is there's been a real desire to kind of break
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the monopolies that the Venetians and the Italians have had on.
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Trade with the East.
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They've kind of locked that down and so they are
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getting extremely wealthy, and the rest of Europe's going there's
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got to be another way to the East. We want
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these you know, we want we want this money. But
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the Spanish and the Portuguese have been engaged in an intense.
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Rivalry to try and kind of break out of this.
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And it's already kind of with the War of the
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Castilian Succession, the fight over the possession of the Canaries
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and things like that. You've got the Portuguese developing this
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fantastic school for navigation and they're pushing south around Africa,
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and obviously Vasco da Gama ends up achieving what Christopher
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Columbus does not and finds that alternative.
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Route to Asia.
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Right, But you know, Isabelle's being incredibly savvy. You know,
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they're behind the Portuguese.
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She knows it. You know, she wants to get in
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on this.
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So you know, when Christopher Columbus comes and he is
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kind of you know, she's ripe for the picking, if
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you like, and that you know, she is desperate to
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kind of, you know, catch up to the Portuguese, and
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here's someone offering her an opportunity to try to do that. So,
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you know, I think that's really important context. I think
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all too often it's kind of the whole Columbus story
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is kind of, like you said, sold in a kind
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of strange, kind of fairy story kind of way. But
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without that context of why Isabelle was so keen on this,
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it doesn't make as much sense.
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And I think also, you know, spreading Catholicism around the world,
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that was another goal that she had too, in addition
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to the trade.
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Yeah, let's let's get into this Catholicism, shall we. Longtime
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listeners of the podcast, Now, I've looked into my Colombian
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ancestors with the last name Cohen. They did some DNA
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tests and lo and behold, they probably were part of
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this Sephardic group of Jews that got booted out of
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Spain in fourteen ninety two, and I didn't realize their daughter,
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or her daughter, Isabella of Arragon, she married the King
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of Portugal in fourteen ninety seven with the condition that
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he expelled the Jews, that the refugee Jews that fled
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from Spain to Portugal, please kick them out of Portugal.
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So that was her wedding gift. Obviously, now with the
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great distance, you know, utterly horrifying family. But why were
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they this Catholic that they felt that they needed to
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expel non Catholics, especially given you know, like like like
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any good anti Semites. They had all these court Jews
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right who were rich and lending them money up until
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the time of the expulsion. So yeah, what what can
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we what can we say about their religious habits?
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I think this is something that's really hard.
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I mean, when I I teach this period and I
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teach the Reformation of my students, I think it's really
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hard in this very secular, tolerant, multi faith era to
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really kind of understand the mindset in this period. And
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obviously I teach the Inquisition and we talk about it, et cetera,
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and it's really important to understand that they really genuinely
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believed that this was the only way to heaven, and
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that you know, again, you know, they were saving people
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from the fires of hell, and they were doing.
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Actual good here.
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Now we see it as you know, horrifying kind of
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genocide and.
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Religious and tolerance and all the rest of it.
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But you have to kind of put yourself into a
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fifteenth century mindset to kind of understand where they're coming
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from and their kind of motivation for this. So it
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is really really hard to kind of distance ourselves from
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our perspective in the twenty first century and our understandings
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of kind of again a kind of a multi faith,
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a very kind of secular modern era, to try to
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understand the religious motivations that she felt. But she genuinely
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felt that she was doing good in something that we
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see is really quite horrific.
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Yeah, And another aspect of the Inquisition too, is that
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it was a way to take the property and the
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money that the Jews owned, because you find when they
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expelled them, they could only take two coins with them
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or something like that. They couldn't take all of their
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goods and all of their money with them. So I
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think this was another aspect of.
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That royalties of this period were so inventive with with
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cash grabs. I gotta say, I guess the last question
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about Isabella Cristia before we turned to her daughters, the
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reconquest of Granada. What role was was she playing with that?
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Again, the conquest of Granada in fourteen ninety two is
380
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kind of the last phase of you know, what was
381
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commonly called, although there's a lot of pushback against the
382
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term rayconquista these days, but you know, again, the context
383
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of the Convivienthia, the context of kind of Muslim uh
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the civilization that was built in the Middle Ages in
385
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Iberia is really really important to understand. But at this
386
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point Granada is the very last of the Islamic kingdoms
387
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which is left in the Iberian Peninsula. You know, if
388
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you go back to the eighth century, they literally had
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the entire peninsulas for a little teeny siliver at the top,
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which was Asturias. So she's completing that that kind of process.
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So again, she would have seen herself as kind of,
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you know, again following in the footsteps of her forefathers,
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the kings of Castile, who had, you know, effectively kind.
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Of eaten up all of that territory.
395
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And for her as well, again she know, she saw
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that as part of her her mission, you know, as
397
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a Catholic to kind of reclaim that land.
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You know, for Catholicism.
399
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It is important to note that that the Muslims and
400
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the Jews were given the choice to convert. It wasn't
401
00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:54.559
like you had to leave, but you know, but obviously
402
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for you know, that's that that's also a loaded, you
403
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:00.559
know kind of thing as well, So they're going to
404
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:01.359
get a little bit careful.
405
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But they did have, you know, they were kind of
406
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given a choice in the matter.
407
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Although I think what's probably more problematic in some ways
408
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is that initially, you know, kind of for nine Isabelle said, oh,
409
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you know, we're going to be harmonious with the you know,
410
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Granada and everyone can. You know, there was kind of
411
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a period in which they said they we'll just leave
412
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things as they are, but it's just going to be
413
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ours now kind of thing. Of course that that you know,
414
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that quickly changed and it swopped over to like you
415
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must be Catholic. But but it was the expulsion of
416
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the Mariscos again, the kind of remnants of the kind
417
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of the formerly Muslim population in Iberia doesn't happen until
418
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the seventeenth century.
419
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Right, Oh sorry, yes, yeah, I was just going to say.
420
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On a personal level. Peggy Lists in her biography of Isabella,
421
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talks about how she acted as the quartermast and this
422
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is what I was saying about her being a good administrator.
423
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She made sure that the army had supplies, horses, artillery,
424
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She made sure of all that. She actually traveled around
425
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with the troops with her family, with the with the
426
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.119
daughters and everything. In fact, one night their tent caught
427
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on fire and they narrowly escaped death.
428
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So wow, it was one of the things that happened.
429
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And yeah, and she she also, yeah, she just traveled
430
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with him. And she would also appear on horseback before
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the troops. She wouldn't actually lead them, but she would appear,
432
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you know, to get them a rale up of the troops.
433
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Wow.
434
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And and it's it's it's interesting again preparing for this,
435
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I didn't realize that that the daughter Catherine of Out
436
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:43.200
of Gone, she kind of played a similar role. While
437
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her husband Henry the eighth was in France, she was
438
00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:50.720
getting the English army prepared to fight Scotland. I love
439
00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:54.400
the story that she her her her army killed the
440
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King of Scotland and she like sent her husband part
441
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of his blo bloodied coat and be like put it
442
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on a badge. And at first she wanted to send
443
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the whole embalmed body, but that didn't work out, so
444
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they just chucked the body like these these are really
445
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.000
tough broads. Yeah.
446
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Yeah, And I.
447
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:17.200
Think what's even more interesting about that is that she
448
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.359
basically was successful in her campaign against the Scotts, and
449
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Henry obviously was on his campaign in Friends, which wasn't
450
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:25.319
as successful as hers. So it was a little bit
451
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kind of like, you know, hey, you leave me, you
452
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leave me in charge of home, and look what I
453
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can do.
454
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You know.
455
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She was definitely cut from the same cloth as her mother.
456
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Yeah. Yeah, And they still.
457
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:39.039
Don't know where James the fourth body is. It disappeared?
458
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Whoops.
459
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:43.440
One of the mysteries of history.
460
00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:50.279
Interesting. Yeah. So okay, So Isabelle and Fernando a very
461
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:54.119
good working relationship. They try their best with their daughter
462
00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:58.680
one of Castilla, marry her to Philip, the son of
463
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.559
the Holy Roman Empery or this is how we get
464
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:06.720
the House of Habsburg their partnership not so good. So
465
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:09.599
what what what went wrong here?
466
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.480
I mean, what went wrong is a really difficult one.
467
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:15.400
I mean there's a lot of there's so many different
468
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:17.000
takes on this story.
469
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I mean, obviously a.
470
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Lot of the popular culture kind of versions of this tale,
471
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like in La Corona Bartida or Mad Love, the Oscar
472
00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:27.319
winning kind of Mad Love kind of have this kind
473
00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:29.559
of thing about you know, perhaps it was some kind
474
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:32.640
of love story gone wrong, or he manipulated her, or
475
00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:36.279
you know, maybe even kind of abused her or used
476
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.119
very controlling behavior, etc. To kind of you know, but
477
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:44.079
certainly she was in a really difficult position when she
478
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went to Burgundy.
479
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A lot of her.
480
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:51.000
Spanish household was either made so uncomfortable that they left
481
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or actually sent away. She was very much isolated. She
482
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.720
was in a very kind of difficult situation. So whether
483
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:02.559
it was a personal kind of relationship breakdown situation or
484
00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:06.880
again him being controlling, or her just being really again
485
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.519
like you were saying, her mental health being compromised by
486
00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:12.319
you know, isolation and feeling like there was not many
487
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.240
people that she could trust in the Burgundian court. Yeah,
488
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.279
a lot of discussion about kind of the motivations between
489
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.279
you know, Philip and Twina and what happened there, but
490
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.000
certainly not as good personally or politically as the Las.
491
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:26.720
Yeah.
492
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:31.319
I think that Corjuana was kind of stuck between you know,
493
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.160
her parents on one side and then her husband on
494
00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:37.160
the other. And she had been taught to preserve her
495
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:41.359
marriage at all costs, and so you know, she had
496
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:44.960
both of these people putting pressure on her. Another thing
497
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.839
is we were talking about context. Philip was very pro
498
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:53.160
French and so he you know, he kind of ignored
499
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:58.000
all of the Spanish influence into the politics of his empire.
500
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.680
And like Ellie said, he took her staff, he took
501
00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:05.559
her income, he took you know, most of the duchesses
502
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.920
of Burgundy had their own castle, you know, that they
503
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.039
could live, they could get away from court if they
504
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:13.759
wanted to. She didn't have that. She had nowhere to go.
505
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:18.519
So she was isolated. And then he was really unfaithful
506
00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:21.880
to her, and I think she resented that. Probably I
507
00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:23.640
think she cut off the hair of one of the
508
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:24.799
mistresses or something.
509
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:28.319
So yeah, and in the end he.
510
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:33.039
Actually forged a document that says, you know, Wanna says, oh,
511
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.519
because of my great love for my husband. I want
512
00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:38.039
him to be the king of Spain and rule you
513
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:42.559
know at my stead. He forged that document, So yeah,
514
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:46.839
it was kind of a dysfunctional relationship.
515
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:51.160
Yeah, to say, to say the very least. Yeah, Susan,
516
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:55.400
So you include a chapter on Wana of Christia in
517
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:00.079
your book The Formidable Women Who Shaped Medieval Europe, And
518
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:02.960
it was just very strange how it seemed like like
519
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:06.680
her husband and her father were both very eager to
520
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.880
be like she's she's mad, you know, and to the
521
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.160
point of even during visits, like you write about them
522
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:16.920
visiting England and like the husband's preliminary going, oh, my
523
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.039
wife is mad, and then the King of England is
524
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:21.680
able to have a great time with her. You know.
525
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:25.960
I just am surprised that, you know, the father and
526
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.160
husband would gang up like this and want to.
527
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:32.279
Yeah, they kind of conspired together, you know. And Isabella
528
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.839
of Castile she kind of she kind of started this
529
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:39.319
because in her will, you know, she named wanas her heir.
530
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:42.480
But then she said if she's unwilling or unable, or
531
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:45.640
if she can't be in Spain, then Ferdinand was to
532
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.119
rule in her stead and be the regent, and so
533
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.480
he kind of took that and ran with it and said, well,
534
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:55.920
she can't, she can't rule because she's mad, So I'm
535
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:56.599
going to take.
536
00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:02.799
Over, echoing his SOB father also too. For a second,
537
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:07.119
just I didn't realize just how gross for Fernando was.
538
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:11.960
After Isabelle died, he literally marries his great niece in
539
00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:17.279
the hopes of having a son who can inherit the throne.
540
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:19.200
And they do have a son, but then he dies
541
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:26.799
and man just dysfunction on dysfunction, just so disturbing. All right,
542
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:30.960
Philip the Handsome or Philip the sob, whichever you want
543
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.720
to call him. His wife, we just talked about one
544
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:39.039
of castile terrible fate his sister Margaret of Austria, completely
545
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:43.279
different story. Successful regent rules the Low countries for for
546
00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:47.000
a quarter century, like within the same family. How come
547
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:51.000
one woman could rule and again another was shoved away.
548
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:55.920
Well, and Margaret of Austria, Oh sorry, I was gonna say,
549
00:30:55.960 --> 00:31:00.000
she's probably my favorite female royal figure of this period,
550
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:04.119
without a doubt. I mean, she's incredibly smart and savvy
551
00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:07.400
and a very capable politician. When she was actually married
552
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:11.799
to the raised catholicos son and heir won the prendib Astorias,
553
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:14.000
and it was a double marriage. It was meant to
554
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:17.599
kind of lock the Habsburgs and thrust Amara together, and
555
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:20.319
of course one dies and you know, then she marries
556
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:23.319
into Savoy and then eventually you know, comes back to Austria.
557
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:26.960
But actually their mother, Mary of Burgundy, was the great heiress.
558
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.680
I mean, that's why the Low countries. You know, Maximilian
559
00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.720
married Mary of Burgundy, and actually if you look at
560
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:35.319
the Low countries, you get this stream of kind of
561
00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:37.880
women ruling there. So you get Mary of Burgundy, Margaret
562
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:42.039
of Austria, then Mary of Hungary, Charles the Fifth's sister,
563
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:45.559
then you get his daughter, you know, so it just
564
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:47.000
goes on and on and on and on.
565
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:49.240
You get Hapswor you still get hapsburg.
566
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.440
Women ruling there in the eighteenth century, so you get
567
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:54.079
this wonderful tradition of female rule in the Low Countries,
568
00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:57.079
which is absolutely fantastical. Like Isabella Clarochmia one of my
569
00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:00.599
favorites in the seventeenth century. So yeah, yeah, Margaret of
570
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:06.079
Austria is she is absolutely fantastic. She is a consummate politician. Yeah,
571
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.799
she raises Charles the Fifth, she raises Wana's children, effectively
572
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:13.880
as well. So she is incredibly important, incredibly important woman.
573
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:17.359
Yeah, I was going to say that. You know, Wana
574
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:19.960
was not expected to be the queen because she had
575
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:23.599
an older sister and then she had a nephew and
576
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:28.279
her brother, but they all died and so by default
577
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:30.880
she ended up being the queen, and she didn't have
578
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:37.240
any training in governance at all because of that. But
579
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.160
on the other hand, Margaret of Austria. First she was
580
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:42.720
married to the King of France and she stayed in
581
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:46.000
France for many years under the tutelage of and de Boujoux,
582
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:49.200
who was the Regent of France for about eight years.
583
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:51.880
I call her the Queen of France. She was the
584
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:55.079
Queen of France for eight years without having the title,
585
00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:00.319
and then she went to Spain, as Ellie mentioned, after
586
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:02.960
her husband died. She stayed there for a couple of years,
587
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:06.720
and so she got the benefit of seeing Isabella rule
588
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.240
and her administrative skills and all that. And then when
589
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.440
she married the Duke of Savoy, he actually turned over
590
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:17.200
the governance of his duchy to her and she ran
591
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:19.880
the country while she was married to him. So she
592
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:24.960
had this fantastic background and training, so that's why you
593
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:28.000
had the different types of success in the family.
594
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.240
Yeah and interesting and right, So much depended on on
595
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.279
what you were exposing these these these these royal children
596
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:39.279
to wow, random question just because you're mentioning about you know,
597
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:42.400
Mary a Burgundy marrying a Habsburg, and that builds up
598
00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:47.200
the titles which someone can hold. This era where it
599
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:51.359
seems like people have just a random grab bag by
600
00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:54.319
the accident of their genealogy, right, Charles the Fifth the
601
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:58.079
ultimate example of this, you know, parts of parts of Italy,
602
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.319
parts of Spain, parts of the low countries, Like, just
603
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:06.519
how did their subjects view these people? Because if you
604
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:09.679
step back, they do feel a little bit interchangeable, right, like,
605
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:13.000
and they're having so many struggles about family members, about
606
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:18.480
family members, Like how beyond just the ultimate like elite circle,
607
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:20.920
how did people view their sovereigns.
608
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:22.480
That's a really good question.
609
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:25.320
So Charles the Fifth is the classic example of a
610
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:27.960
composite monarchy, where you have one monarch ruling over a
611
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:29.920
lot of different territories. And of course he inherits from
612
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:32.800
all his grandparents, right, so from the raised Catholicos, but
613
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.360
also from Maximilian and Mary, and then obviously some conquests
614
00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:39.719
in the Italian Wars, et cetera. But yeah, but what's
615
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.480
really important actually about Charles the Fifth is two things.
616
00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:45.000
He does what it's called polyvalence signaling.
617
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:46.960
So when he's in the Low Countries, he's like, you know,
618
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:49.440
I was born in Ghent and this is my homeland.
619
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.920
And when he's in Spain, he's like, I'm raising my
620
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:53.920
son as a true Castilian. And when he's in the
621
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.159
Holy Roman Empire, he's like, I'm a Habsburg, you know.
622
00:34:56.400 --> 00:35:00.480
So he spends his entire reign knackering himself, running around
623
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:03.559
trying to show his face to everybody, leading campaigns, dealing
624
00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:05.840
with this, that and the other thing, which is part
625
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:07.920
of the reason why I filed. The second completely rejects.
626
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:10.280
That model and stays in a desk in Madrid basically.
627
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:13.239
But you know, Charles, that's part of his success.
628
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:15.639
The other part of Charles's success brings us back to
629
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:18.480
queen ship because what Charles does is he uses the
630
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:20.519
women in his family. So he's got his aunt and
631
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:22.679
then his sister ruling in the Low countries. He's got
632
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:26.000
his incredible wife, Isabella of Portugal, ruling at home. When
633
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.000
he's away, hermana the why his step grandmother he even
634
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:32.639
kind of uses as a viceroy, He uses his daughters,
635
00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:36.280
his you know, he uses everybody basically in different parts
636
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.760
of his empire, and particularly the women in his family
637
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:43.440
who he trusts and relies on, using the old kind
638
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.679
of Aragonese model of the queen lieutenant who's deputized to
639
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:49.400
rule in the absence of the king. So you know
640
00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:52.440
that it shows you kind of how important these women
641
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:56.079
are and how trusted they are to govern, and how yeah,
642
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.880
how clued up they are in terms of being effective
643
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:00.880
administrator and diplomats.
644
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:04.679
Yeah cool, And thank you for bringing up Isabella of Portugal,
645
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:09.119
granddaughter of Isabelle Laktolka, the upside of cousin marriage.
646
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:11.840
I guess, yeah, I was just going to say that.
647
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.559
You know, when Philip went to Spain and tried to
648
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:17.760
become king there, the people didn't like it. They did
649
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.679
not like it, and so when he went there with Wana,
650
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.519
they would go to the courts to get her recognized
651
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:27.800
as the monarch, and the courts would recognize her, but
652
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:32.000
they wouldn't recognize him. So, but I think that Ellie
653
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:34.320
is right about Charles the Fifth. He was very affected
654
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.400
with that how he used the women to rule.
655
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:42.199
Okay, so now we're turning finally to the Tutors. So
656
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:45.800
speaking about you, you mentioned about the Trastamas trying to
657
00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:48.239
build their alliance with the Habsburgs. They also tried to
658
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:52.400
build the alliance with the Tutors with the youngest daughter Catherine.
659
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:56.119
First off, it's funny, you know, Gringos, we say Catherine
660
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:58.400
of Aragon and it sounds like this fairy tale country,
661
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.000
but it's actually Catherine of Adrago, and I think we
662
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:03.559
don't often remember that she was the daughter of the
663
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:10.440
rees Catolicos. So again this pedigree like graduate school of government.
664
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:14.519
She's she's exposed to it, and she really fits the bill.
665
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:19.840
She's first married to Henry the Eighth's brother, Prince Arthur,
666
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.559
who dies a few months later, but then as a
667
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:27.400
widow she and a teenager, she is the Spanish ambassador
668
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:31.920
to the English court, which is amazing, just taking on diplomacy.
669
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.679
I mentioned how you know she commanded the troops against Scotland.
670
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:40.360
This is a pretty kick ass woman. And I'll ask
671
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:43.920
the crowd, like, did any of Henry's other wives have
672
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:45.840
this this these capabilities?
673
00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:49.920
Yeah, Catherine Parr definitely did, and it's important to recognize
674
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:52.280
that she too was deputized to rule and during one
675
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.960
of his absences in fifteen forty four, and was incredibly effective.
676
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:59.159
In fact, you know, Susan James has kind of claimed
677
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:03.440
that Mary and Elizabeth Tudor were really impacted by seeing
678
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.000
Katherine Parr as a kind of a woman in charge
679
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:08.360
during that period and kind of could see what a
680
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:11.400
woman could do. So yeah, I think Katherine Parr was
681
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:14.679
every bit as capable. And certainly there's a new biography
682
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:16.760
of Jane Seymour that'll be out next year, which I'm
683
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.679
reading the manuscript of now, which is kind of sharing
684
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.320
how capable she was, and if she'd had more time
685
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.000
as queen we might have seen a lot more from
686
00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:24.880
her as well.
687
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:28.199
So yes, absolutely, Katherine Ragun I think was.
688
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:31.360
Particularly well qualified, you know, being kind of groomed to
689
00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:34.800
rule and having her mother Isabella Catolica in front of
690
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:38.760
her as a child. But certainly I think the tutor consorts,
691
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:40.480
you know, She's not unique in that regard.
692
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:44.679
Yes, I totally agree. Katherine Parr is actually my favorite.
693
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:47.960
Of as a brier. And Melissa, do you have a
694
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:50.039
favorite among the six wives.
695
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:52.320
I'm gonna I'm gonna have to just feel very bad
696
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:58.719
for Anne Bulliam, so I don't feel bad for her.
697
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:00.400
That's the one that sticks for me.
698
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:03.400
It's I think it's more tragedy on my end, like
699
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:04.639
compassion for their tragedy.
700
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:09.000
And yeah, no, I think she was conniving in that
701
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:10.880
they all planned to take down the church, like I
702
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:13.800
believe all the conspiracies that her father and her brother
703
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:15.519
were all in on it, and that this was their
704
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:18.360
master plan when they were just shoving her around court,
705
00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:19.280
like I believe.
706
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:19.519
All the hype.
707
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:22.880
Like I think she was way cleverer than people give
708
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:26.199
her credit for. I think she was definitely she was
709
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:28.800
definitely more able than people than people thought.
710
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:32.719
So a sleeper, yes, one hundred percent a sleeper.
711
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:37.679
He was a sleeper, okay. And and and first they
712
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.440
tried with with with the older sister, right, get her
713
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:42.440
the king, and then that didn't work.
714
00:39:42.519 --> 00:39:45.599
So then it's just so suspicious, like it it can't
715
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:49.400
have been you know, oh it happenstance, No, no way,
716
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.440
they it was like Henry was a target.
717
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:53.800
I one hundred percent believe it.
718
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:56.119
All right, I'm going to turn this over to the
719
00:39:56.840 --> 00:40:03.639
historians here. We have do any sense like it's it's
720
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:07.719
it's such an astounding impossible story, right that this that
721
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.840
this what should have just been a king having a
722
00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:17.960
mistress becomes this major political religious moment. What happened?
723
00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:25.239
Oh goodness, Ambulance. Yeah, it's I've kind of got it.
724
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.039
To a point where I've had so many students wanting
725
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:30.119
to do dissertations on Ambalan and she gets so much attention,
726
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:31.840
so much so that there's a whole book called The
727
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:34.119
Creation of Ambulance that kind of talks about this kind
728
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:36.000
of quasi mythical figure that.
729
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:36.960
We've kind of built up.
730
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:39.280
It was just really far removed from the kind of
731
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:43.880
historical woman that existed. But yeah, I mean, obviously that
732
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:48.440
whole thing is is guy AT's word car crash, but
733
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:50.199
I mean it is it is kind of a perfect
734
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:53.440
storm of everything kind of you know, kind of going wrong,
735
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.760
if you like, in terms of you know, Henry's desire
736
00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:57.800
to have an air and everything that's going on the
737
00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:00.960
Italian Wars, including the Pope being miss in Rome, which
738
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:03.159
means that he's never going to get that divorce. That's
739
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:06.719
never going to happen politically, which kind of pushes Henry
740
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:11.000
into a corner and obviously the reformist movement, the evangelical
741
00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:13.639
movement kind of giving Henry kind of.
742
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:15.519
An option that he might not have had before.
743
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:19.199
Or you know, yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's a
744
00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:21.280
lot of things kind of going on that kind of
745
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:25.079
creates this very unusual situation that ultimately ends up with
746
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.519
Catherine being dethroned or demoted back to being dowager Princess
747
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:32.400
of Wales and Anne Boleyn kind of vaulted into her place.
748
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.679
But yeah, it's I think that's why we're still talking
749
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:37.400
about it. We're still talking about our situation.
750
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:41.159
It's just this crazy scenario that nobody could have foreseen.
751
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.400
I think that the Berlin family, they were playing the
752
00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:45.400
political game.
753
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:48.159
You know, this is what the nobleman did.
754
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:50.480
You tried to get into the inner circle with the
755
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:56.599
king and it could be very lucrative, but you could
756
00:41:56.639 --> 00:41:59.719
also have a terrible fall. And this is what happened
757
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.559
to the Berlin family for various reasons.
758
00:42:03.559 --> 00:42:07.239
So yeah, car crash wonderful way of describing it. I
759
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:12.679
guess cart crashed to be more historically contemporary. But anyway,
760
00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:18.639
so right, Catherine of Aragon, you know, she she she
761
00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:22.760
sticks to her guns. They tried you know, Henry tries
762
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.679
to demote her to Princess Dowager like such such a
763
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:29.360
sick burn, but you want to have any of it
764
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:31.280
to the last she and says that she's she's a
765
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.199
true queen. What was the source of this strength?
766
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:37.840
I think she's definitely is about Lackadolica's daughter, I mean,
767
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:40.199
and Fernando Aragon, let's face, I mean he was he
768
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:42.320
was also you know, a tough cookie, as we were
769
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.119
just talking about. So, you know, I think with parents
770
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.719
like that, you know, it's no surprise that Catherine of
771
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.639
Aragon was so steely in her resolve and so determined
772
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:56.320
to retain the position. And you know that that that
773
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:58.960
marriage with with first Arthur and then Henry was a
774
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.239
really key part of the race. Could the Lego's kind
775
00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:04.079
of political platform. She knew how important that was, and
776
00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:06.239
she worked for that alliance and the benefit of her
777
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.800
family the whole way through. So yeah, she was she
778
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:12.239
was definitely fighting for herself, and she was also fighting
779
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:14.280
for her daughter. I mean, she did not want her
780
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.920
daughter to be delegitimized and lose her place in the succession,
781
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.559
So she had lots of motivation to stick it out
782
00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:23.599
and fight her corner.
783
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:25.519
She wasn't going to go away quietly, no way.
784
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:30.039
Well, and let's just be honest. She was right. She
785
00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:31.719
was right. She wasn't the true queen.
786
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:36.920
Yeah, right, I mean she she was that. Yeah. I
787
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:40.840
mean you can say that you're divorced, but yeah, that
788
00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:48.719
doesn't mean you are. Wow. So I'm wondering, you know,
789
00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:53.559
we're transitioning from Catherine of going to her daughter, who
790
00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:57.719
chances are you've heard of her as Bloody Mary. How
791
00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:02.239
much is their historical legacy kind of in England versus
792
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:07.199
Spain thing where, you know, because because right, Catherine's usually
793
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:11.039
depicted as you know, the really serious Catholic, you know,
794
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:15.320
scorned wife, like how was was there kind of a
795
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:20.480
nationalistic or partisan way in which he's been noted through
796
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:21.119
through history.
797
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:23.800
We have to be so so careful with that. I mean,
798
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:27.119
the whole Bloody Mary thing that is just that's just
799
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:27.599
got to go.
800
00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.079
I mean, I had a PhD sudent who's now finished,
801
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:33.320
doctor Johannah Strong, who her whole PhD was on the
802
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:36.440
creation of that image. And I think it's really important
803
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:39.760
to recognize as well that the whole idea of the
804
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:44.079
the whole vision of Spain that you get the Leandra Neegra.
805
00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:45.079
This whole kind of.
806
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:47.360
Idea of Spain is this kind of dark power in
807
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:53.599
whatever is a combination of kind of Elizabethan propaganda and
808
00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:56.920
and kind of Protestant historiography in England, which kind of
809
00:44:56.920 --> 00:44:59.480
continued for kind of centuries, right, which has kind of
810
00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:02.280
built up this idea of Elizabeth that you see in
811
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:06.480
like the the Kapoor Elizabeth films, you know, like Elizabeth
812
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:08.559
the Golden Age, et cetera. And I always call it
813
00:45:08.599 --> 00:45:11.239
the Black Legend Rides again. You know, you cut to
814
00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:14.440
Philip the second and he's hunched around clutching a rosary
815
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.800
and looking very bleak, and everything is like that. It's
816
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:19.719
just not and that's not how contemporaries would have seen it,
817
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:22.519
you know, That's that's a later thing, if you like so.
818
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:25.280
I mean, yes, I mean Mary was very aware of
819
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:27.800
her Spanish heritage and that's part was part of her
820
00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:29.559
motivation to marry and Philip is Spain.
821
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.079
But she also knew they were the.
822
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:33.840
Most powerful players in Europe at that time. I mean, yeah,
823
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.920
that alliance was sound for that reason. And the whole
824
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:39.320
reason why England feared is because it didn't want to
825
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:40.920
get sucked into becoming.
826
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:43.519
Another appendage of the Habsbury Empire, you.
827
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.519
Know, and they didn't want to get sucked into the
828
00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:47.719
fight with the Italian Wars, which they did anyway and
829
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.199
lost Calais. So you know, it's you know, they had
830
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:52.800
every reason of being fearful of that, but Mary thought
831
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:54.960
she was doing the right thing, not only going to
832
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.719
her Spanish family, but also looking to the most powerful.
833
00:45:58.239 --> 00:45:59.679
Power in Europe as an ally.
834
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:01.480
So yeah, we had to.
835
00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:04.199
Be really really careful with that whole thing because that, Yeah,
836
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:06.719
the whole vision of Mary has been you know, she
837
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.440
was set up as a foil against Elizabeth, and and
838
00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:12.280
so much really excellent work has been going on by
839
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:15.639
historians in the last few decades to really give a
840
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:18.559
different view of Mary, to really show that she actually
841
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:21.480
the success of Elizabeth was predicated on Mary being that
842
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:25.800
pathbreaker who established regnant queen ship. So I think, you
843
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:28.360
know that that kind of dismissal of her and her
844
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:31.360
reign as being kind of nasty and brutish. I mean,
845
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.679
Elizabeth killed more Catholics than Mary ever killed for atestance.
846
00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:37.960
You know, so we'd be really really careful with that.
847
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:41.719
Yeah, just just quickly like, who who are some writers
848
00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:45.599
who have been biographers rather who have been shifting our
849
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:47.760
understanding of Queen Mary the first Reign.
850
00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:52.039
Yeah, so there's a really excellent book that was edited
851
00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:56.920
by the great Elizabethan actually scholars Susan Dorian and Thomas Friedman,
852
00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:00.480
Mary Tudor Old and New Perspectives, which is the key
853
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:04.360
in that. Also, Valerie Shoot has been doing some incredible
854
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.440
work obviously, Johannah Strong's work more recently that's on the
855
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:10.079
whole kind of creation of that. So those are just
856
00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:12.519
a few names, and you know, there's a Jessica Howard.
857
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:14.880
I mean, there's just loads and loads of authors who
858
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:20.280
have been doing some incredible work to really reposition and revisit.
859
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:21.880
Mary's reign and see it on its own terms.
860
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:24.079
I guess on the Spanish slide as well, you've got
861
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:27.960
you know, Alexander Samson's work on kind of Philip and Mary,
862
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:30.719
and again that his work is really really key if
863
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:33.159
you want to kind of think about how England saw
864
00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:36.159
Spain and the relationship between England and Spain.
865
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:38.159
I really kind of recommend his work.
866
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:41.920
Anna Whitlock and Linda Porter too have both had good
867
00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:44.280
biographies of Mary Susan.
868
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:46.719
Any any thoughts from you about the way in which
869
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:50.519
Catherine of Aragon and Mary the First have been remembered
870
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:52.159
by by history.
871
00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:56.079
Yes, I did want to mention that, you know, the
872
00:47:56.119 --> 00:47:59.880
bloody Mary thing because she burned heretics. If you want
873
00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:02.639
to really boil it down to the numbers, only about
874
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.239
two hundred and ninety people were burned as heretics during
875
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:09.920
Mary's reign, and then, as Ellie mentioned, more Catholics died
876
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:15.519
under Elizabeth than that. And if we want to compare
877
00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:18.719
her to Charles the Fifth, you know he had the
878
00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:22.719
wars against the Protestants and tens of thousands of people
879
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:27.440
died during those. And also Francis the First started the
880
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:31.639
Eret Demrendahl in fifteen forty five, and this was against
881
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:35.360
the Waldensians. They're also known as the Beaudoirs in the
882
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:38.360
southern part of France, and we know that thousands of
883
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:42.880
people were killed there too. So it's just let's put
884
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:44.480
all of this into perspective.
885
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:48.119
Got it. Any other thoughts about Mary the First and
886
00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:52.559
her reign, how she stacks up in her very formidable
887
00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:53.679
female line.
888
00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:55.519
Yeah, she really had.
889
00:48:55.400 --> 00:49:00.039
A strong personality like her mother and her grandmother and
890
00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:02.239
you know, not to mention she was the daughter of
891
00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:06.519
Henry the eighth. So I think she really did the
892
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:10.280
best she could under difficult circumstances. Because there was some
893
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:13.280
other things that happened in her reign, you know, like
894
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:17.599
there was like torrential rains every summer, the crops failed,
895
00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:23.559
there was an influenza plague, she lost Calais, as Ellie mentioned.
896
00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:26.920
And I think that her choice at phil at the second,
897
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:29.920
you know, as Ellie said, it was a good choice
898
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:32.599
for her, but the English people didn't appreciate it. I
899
00:49:32.599 --> 00:49:35.199
don't think so. I think that might have been one
900
00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:36.719
of her mistakes.
901
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:39.800
And I think to her reign is so short that
902
00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:42.760
you know, she really didn't really get time to get
903
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:45.800
going or really kind of an actor program. And Susan's
904
00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:48.280
up thu, right, I mean, she had a few difficult years.
905
00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:50.440
A lot of monarchs have a few difficult years at
906
00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:52.760
the start of their reign and then they kind of
907
00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:55.480
hit their stride, and Mary never really got the opportunity
908
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:57.280
to do that. So I think there's a lot of
909
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:00.199
kind of looking backwards and kind of you know again
910
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:03.519
looking at Oh, Elizabeth has this long successful golden age, right,
911
00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:06.159
I mean, Elizabeth has tough years and struggles and times
912
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:07.880
when it looks like it's all going to come apart
913
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:08.400
as well.
914
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:10.039
But we don't see that.
915
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:11.840
We tend to kind of, you know, you know, see
916
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:14.239
it as this kind of ah, you know, Golden Age moment.
917
00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:17.199
And then Mary, by contrast, looks kind of brutish and
918
00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:21.000
short and poor by comparison. But Mary just doesn't have
919
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.639
the opportunity to kind of do what Elizabeth did with
920
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:25.119
with decades of kind of rule.
921
00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:31.760
Got it, Yeah, maybe you all won't appreciate it. Question
922
00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:34.679
for the four of you. Let's say you're in a
923
00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:38.960
sixteenth century English palace. Henry the eighth has eyes on you.
924
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:42.480
He starts humming green sleeves at you. What do you do?
925
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:43.639
Run?
926
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:46.480
Run away?
927
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:52.480
There was a couple of women like Marie de Geeze
928
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:56.880
and Christina of Denmark. They both were on his radar
929
00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:59.639
and they said, I want to keep my head. You know,
930
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:01.599
his reputation was.
931
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:05.760
Worldwide briarlysa any thoughts?
932
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:09.119
No, Yeah, Ron, one hundred percent, don't look back, don't
933
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:11.480
collect two hundred dollars past, go and keep on going
934
00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:14.280
exactly exactly.
935
00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:20.320
Yeah, So, uh, Susan and Ellie, both of you had
936
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:24.000
mentioned in passing you had particular favorite queens of the era.
937
00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:26.840
H do you mind talking a little about these these
938
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:28.920
these other favorite queens of yours? Who who who he
939
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:30.360
didn't bring up in this past hour.
940
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:33.400
Yeah, I mean obviously, like said, Margaret of Austria, and
941
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:36.440
I think Susan mentioned and de Bourgia again, you know
942
00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:39.480
Madame la grand I mean she was just yeah.
943
00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:41.239
Again another really formidable character.
944
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:45.480
And Bretagne twice Queen of France, Sovereign Duchess of Brittany.
945
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:48.400
Again another favorite of mine from this era.
946
00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:50.239
Yeah, Isabella Patelica.
947
00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:52.320
Obviously I've got a soft spot for the Raginnus of
948
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:56.880
Nevada as well. Yeah, it's fantastic, you know, obviously Isabella
949
00:51:56.880 --> 00:52:00.519
of Portugal that we mentioned, fantastic. There's some amazing Valde's
950
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:03.440
sultans of the Ottoman Empire that are really kind of
951
00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:08.000
worth a mention, Juran Sultan for example. You're really kind
952
00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:10.440
of spoilt for choice in this era. I mean, it
953
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:14.280
is it is a really there are so many fascinating women,
954
00:52:14.920 --> 00:52:19.519
powerful women, impactful women, you know, and obviously there's the
955
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.400
you know, Mary, Queen of Scots, who's a really interesting character.
956
00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:23.679
Maybe not my.
957
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:26.159
Favorite, although I know a lot of people are very
958
00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:29.400
much team Mary, Queen of Scott's you know.
959
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:32.639
But again, yeah, you can't. You can't go too far wrong.
960
00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:34.480
You can't feel that you can't throw a stone without
961
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:37.239
hitting an amazing woman in this period.
962
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:38.519
Well, I have to put a plug in for the
963
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:42.000
wives of the duchess, the Dutch Dukes of Burgundy, because
964
00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:46.760
good job, you know. The first Duke started out with
965
00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:49.599
the Duchy of Burgundy, which is which was in France,
966
00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:55.480
and then he went after the County of Burgundy, the Flanders, Belgium, Luxembourg,
967
00:52:56.199 --> 00:53:00.119
all of the low countries. They amassed an empire that
968
00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:03.800
was about the size of Wales in England together, and
969
00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:08.400
they couldn't have done it without the women, because when
970
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:12.199
they were off, you know, conquering territories and trying to
971
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:15.400
take over the throne of France, their wives were at
972
00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:18.880
home ruling for them. And all of them were really
973
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:24.000
great administrators and great governors and well respected too culturally,
974
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:26.000
you know, administratively.
975
00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:29.800
So I'm going to put my two cents in for them.
976
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:31.280
I totally agree.
977
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:35.119
Yeah, it's well of Portugal and Margaret of York particularly, Yeah, good.
978
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:41.760
Shout, Yes, Margaret of Male and Margaret of Bavaria. Yeah, fantastic, Yeah.
979
00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:44.480
Yeah, yeah, definitely, and again builds that wonderful power base
980
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:46.960
for the powerful, you know, rulers of the Low Country,
981
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:48.960
the female rulers of the low countries that follow in
982
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:52.519
the sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth century. So to completely agree,
983
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:54.599
low countries hot better female power.
984
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:57.599
Yeah, I think they're kind of forgotten.
985
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:00.639
That's kind of where the book was because I wanted
986
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:02.599
to show, hey, look there's these women too.
987
00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:04.119
Absolutely. Yeah.
988
00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:06.559
And actually in the Middle Ages you've got ruling countesses
989
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:09.119
of Flanders and there's some great work on them as well.
990
00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:11.239
So yeah, something in the water there for sure.
991
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:16.719
Yep, very lass, rapid round question for all of you. Obviously,
992
00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:21.440
a bajillion movies about the Tutor era and this whole era.
993
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:25.920
I myself was recently watching The Serpent Queen, which was fun.
994
00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:31.159
Any favorites and I appreciated the shade towards Elizabeth the
995
00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:34.480
Golden Era. Any demerits which which you want to give
996
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:38.280
to TV and movies about this era? And again this
997
00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:39.639
is for all all four of you.
998
00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:42.519
Oh, this is such a hard one because I do
999
00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:45.000
do a lot of things on queens on screen, and
1000
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:48.159
I do love this period. Oh god, I couldn't just
1001
00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:50.719
pick one. I am a big fan of Actually at
1002
00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:56.440
the minute, I'm writing a piece and Berlin's execution on screen,
1003
00:54:56.519 --> 00:54:59.000
so I've been thinking a lot about Berlin and revisiting
1004
00:54:59.159 --> 00:55:03.159
Wow Days, which was a movie that I saw obviously
1005
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:05.400
as a youngster before I was a queen Ship scholar,
1006
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:08.239
which is still I still think is fantastic. I mean,
1007
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:13.679
for me, Genevieve Boujeold will always be ambulance. But yeah,
1008
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:16.480
really really hard to pick one. That's a tough one.
1009
00:55:16.599 --> 00:55:18.639
So many great films about the queens of this era.
1010
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.440
I would like to mention the movie Firebrand that just
1011
00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:23.639
came out a year or two ago.
1012
00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:25.960
It was based on a novel.
1013
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:29.639
About Catherine Parr Henry the eighth six wife. I have
1014
00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:34.119
to say, visually and historically it was stunning.
1015
00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:34.960
You know.
1016
00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:38.800
They had the perfect costumes, the perfect music. They depicted
1017
00:55:38.840 --> 00:55:43.000
the court exactly as I imagined it would have been. However,
1018
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:47.400
they changed the ending and it was I left the theater.
1019
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:50.559
I just wanted to cry because I'm like, I'm gonna
1020
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.760
have to tell people this didn't really happen.
1021
00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:56.239
It's true, It reminded me of the whole bit, you
1022
00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:59.480
know in Return of the Jedi when Lea chokes Jaba.
1023
00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:03.000
I was just like, oh my god, they didn't just
1024
00:56:03.079 --> 00:56:03.480
do that.
1025
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:05.719
I'm so glad you said that series, and cause you
1026
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:07.960
mentioned Firebrand, I'm like, the ending.
1027
00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:11.079
No, it was awful, it was just helpful.
1028
00:56:11.239 --> 00:56:11.840
But I was.
1029
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:14.199
Really digging the movie up until that point.
1030
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:16.079
Yeah, I totally I'm with you.
1031
00:56:16.039 --> 00:56:22.119
One, Calyssa, You're you're, you're, You're a resident film critic
1032
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:24.960
here come on, which I'm.
1033
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:26.840
Trying to think because most of them do focus on
1034
00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:28.719
the men. I'm like, wolf Hall is like one of
1035
00:56:28.719 --> 00:56:31.679
my favorite series that they've made about that era man
1036
00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:34.440
for all seasons of that time. And then like in
1037
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:36.119
the back of my head, I see like Betty Davis
1038
00:56:36.199 --> 00:56:39.840
with her giant forehead and that terrible Queen Elizabeth film.
1039
00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:41.159
But it's I mean, The.
1040
00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:42.719
Tutor is the series. I remember I was like in
1041
00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:44.639
high school when that came out and everybody was like
1042
00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:46.679
raving about it. So that was probably like the one
1043
00:56:46.760 --> 00:56:49.880
that made the biggest impression on me. But yeah, there's
1044
00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:51.440
just so much, there's so so much.
1045
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:54.920
Well, I have to mention the nineteen seventy one TV
1046
00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:58.599
series The Six Wives of Henry the Eighth with Keith Michelle,
1047
00:56:58.880 --> 00:56:59.559
the great.
1048
00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:00.519
Australian an actor.
1049
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:03.599
I have when I really want to watch it over
1050
00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:07.440
and over again. I can't get over the historical accuracy
1051
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:11.480
of each of those six plays. They're absolutely perfect. If
1052
00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:14.639
you can find them on DVD or streaming somewhere, I
1053
00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:15.920
can highly recommend them.
1054
00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:19.840
All right, Briar, any any thoughts from you before we
1055
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:20.480
wrap up?
1056
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:21.199
Oh?
1057
00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:24.320
I was just I was going through my head speaking
1058
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:27.840
of Billian. I actually was pretty impressed, and not for
1059
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:31.880
historical accuracy but acting wise, Natalie Portman and the other
1060
00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:35.000
bullying girl. I like that a few years ago. I'm
1061
00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:39.519
just anyway, good cast, a little bit of artistic.
1062
00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:44.280
There, but it was still pretty good, right, you know,
1063
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:50.000
I mean right like Shakespeare in Love. Right. Some sometimes
1064
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:55.559
the the artistic freedoms are means toward towards an end. Again,
1065
00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:59.280
Ellie Susan, thank you so much for joining us. Tell
1066
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:02.559
us where where can we find you online? And also
1067
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:05.880
what are some upcoming projects of yours with which which
1068
00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:07.000
we should look out for?
1069
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:08.280
Yeah?
1070
00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.400
So my Twitter handle is at monarchy komf. I'm on
1071
00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:16.519
Blue Sky. I'm on Instagram is Royal Studies Scholar and
1072
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:18.320
obviously yes is Royal States Podcast.
1073
00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:21.000
Please come check us out for more stuff on Queen Chip.
1074
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:22.599
Yeah that.
1075
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:24.480
At the moment, I am working on a book called
1076
00:58:24.519 --> 00:58:26.960
How to Be a Queen, which hopefully will be out
1077
00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:30.000
next year if I finish it on time, so hopefully
1078
00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:30.559
it'll be out.
1079
00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:32.199
So that's the next I'm working on.
1080
00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:35.159
Yeah, and after that, I've I've got a book contracted
1081
00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:37.159
on global female rule.
1082
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:37.920
Very cool.
1083
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:40.920
Edward mentioned my two books that were published this year.
1084
00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:45.519
You can find me at the freelancehistorywriter dot com all
1085
00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:49.440
one word. I also have a Facebook page, The Freelance
1086
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:50.159
History Writer.
1087
00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:53.199
My current project is.
1088
00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:57.719
A biography in the Vein of Charles, the second Portuguese Queen,
1089
00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:02.360
on her sister in law from England's Italian Queen Mary
1090
00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:03.599
Beatrice ofv Mada.
1091
00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:08.119
Wow cool, all right, And again Susan's book The Formidable
1092
00:59:08.119 --> 00:59:11.239
Women who shaped Medieval Europe Power and patronage in the
1093
00:59:11.239 --> 00:59:14.840
Burgundian Court. Once again, Ellie Susan, thank you so much
1094
00:59:14.840 --> 00:59:16.320
for this. This is a lot of fun.
1095
00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:18.920
Thanks so much for inviting us back.
1096
00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:19.639
Thank you.
1097
00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:25.519
Edward enjoyed it all right, I guess we'll have some housekeeping.
1098
00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:29.400
If you love our podcast, Rediscovering Latinidad, please follow our subscribe.
1099
00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:32.199
It is different from downloading, and please leave us a
1100
00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:35.360
five star rating and review from more family history tips.
1101
00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:38.920
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1102
00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:41.840
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1103
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:44.119
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1104
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:47.840
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1105
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:50.320
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1106
00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:53.440
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1107
00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:57.800
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1108
00:59:57.920 --> 01:00:01.480
Latinidad on Blue Sky and x, and our dash rediscovering
1109
01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:04.039
Latini DoD on Reddit. Join us next week as we
1110
01:00:04.119 --> 01:00:08.159
discuss our true crime episode on Vanessa Gillan. Thank you everybody,
1111
01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:10.920
and thank you Susan and Ellie. Thank you very much.
1112
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:12.719
All right, farewell