Why Getting Outside Is Critical Public Health Infrastructure with Jessica Turner

Speaker 2 (00:00:00)
The following is a production of Wild Idea Media. Welcome to Raising Wild, a show about raising kids and ourselves a little more feral on purpose.

Speaker 2 (00:00:13)
Today I am talking with Jessica Turner, president of the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable. Jessica is a national outdoor recreation leader, working at the intersection of public lands, access, health, policy, and the outdoor economy. Jessica's work makes a simple but powerful case that getting outside is not just a nice thing to do when we have extra time. She's really framing being outside as health infrastructure, and maybe one of the most affordable, available, and

Underused tools we have for improving mental health, supporting healthy child development, reducing isolation, and helping individuals and families build more resilient lives. So that's exactly why I wanted to have her on Raising Wild, because so much of the show is about the belief that time outside shapes us, not just physically, but emotionally, socially, and spiritually. It helps kids take risks, it helps all of us build confidence.

regulate our bodies, pay attention, and feel connected to something bigger than ourselves. So with that, Jessica, welcome to the show.

Thank you. You summed up a lot of our work and research in a very succinct way. You are ⁓ better than AI does. So congrats. That ⁓ was a great ⁓ distillment of a lot of important topics.

Well, ⁓ your work spans ⁓ so much. ⁓ but before we get into that, ⁓ I wanna start where I really like to start for all of us, which is your childhood. So ⁓ I found maybe once where you said you grew up loving the outdoors and spending a lot of time outside. So I'm curious, what did that actually look like?

Speaker 1 (00:01:53)
I think a very like 80s, 90s summer as we're all reimagining how we want to raise our kids, was like typical when you grew up in the 80s. I don't think it was anything extraordinary. My dad was a particularly outdoorsy ⁓ father. He was a forest ranger, went to, you know, to Syracuse Forestry School, ended up being a lawyer. So ⁓ always regretted not, you know, ⁓ going into that line of work and finishing that line of work. So he really brought it, ⁓ you know, to all of our family trips.

You every family trip was a national park. So we were definitely that type of family that our summer trip is a national park. But it was really like ⁓ the the day-to-day, I think, of being in upstate New York. You know, we have two good months of weather in Rochester and New York. And so you were outside, and they're really good months. So like 70s and sunny. ⁓ So you're on a boat, you're on your bike, you're ⁓ fishing, you're, I mean, just everything you can imagine. And then we have.

10 months of really, really bad weather ⁓ and you're skiing and you're ⁓ you know, on snowmobiles and a lot of people hunt. It's like you have to because there's so many deer. It's like a public service thing. So ⁓ I grew up with such a ⁓ embedded, like outdoors is part of community. It's part of what my dad does, it's part of what my family does. And not thinking I'm an outdoorsy person. In fact, probably being like, I would rather dance, I'd rather be at the mall. We had a sailboat growing up, we had to sell it because.

I wanted to, you know, be doing other things. But as I got older, you know, you look back and you really appreciate that. And it was, it's so cliche, but it was a hundred percent true. It was like, come home when the streetlights come on. We were in the cornfields across the street playing hide seek. You're on your bike pretending it's a horse, you're in your neighbor's pool. And I don't have any memories of being inside, you know, in my summers. ⁓ so ⁓ you know, I think for for all of us, that's probably very normal. And now.

You know, I'd look back and be like, my God, I was so outdoorsy compared to my kids or families that I know. But it was just the norm then. I think we were like a normal family in the eighties.

Speaker 2 (00:03:54)
Yeah, it's so interesting that you say that I feel like the field across the street or yeah, you know, like the the forest that is owned by someone else is like where we all hung out. ⁓ as you're describing that part of just being out in your childhood, nobody kind of like necessarily knowing where you are. I'm like, yeah, that was like what I did too in the eighties. ⁓ Yeah. You touched on something in there that

I kind of want to pull out and we're gonna come back to this later, but you talked about hunting, you're talking about being in the water and you're going to national parks and this holistic view of outdoor recreation. Because do you feel like at a young age you weren't necessarily you weren't seeing these as different activities? It was just like being outside.

Totally. When I got into the outdoor industry and like started working for the Department of Interior and really understanding the outdoors as like a economy and a construct and something that had different ⁓ factions or divisions, I was like, what? Because the same people that had a boat, you know, were like camping and hiking and having a garden. And the same people that had a snowmobile had their skis at the same time and hunting and fishing was just like just embedded ⁓ the same way biking and hiking were. So

I really struggled with early in my career that there were like those delineations, I think those manufactured silos, and that people were really judgmental of people in those other silos, like ⁓ you know, someone that's non-consumptive thinking that, you know, hunting or fishing is bad, or someone that's human-powered thinking motorized is really bad. I I just did not have that growing up. And ⁓ my dad, I think, would say he was a big conservationist, and my mom too, but like.

They were never anti anything motorized or ever anti, you know, hunting and fishing. And so ⁓ I think that's what really made me excited about ORR was that we bring everyone together because we know that the common denominator is so great. It's a love for public lands and waters. It's a love for getting outside and people do that differently. And I think a lot of it's geographically based. Like, you know, if you're

Speaker 1 (00:05:55)
In ⁓ a certain part of Montana, there might be more ATV trails and opportunities to get on your side by side. And if you're in a certain part of Washington State, there might be more alpine, you know, hiking and climbing. And that's just because of where the trails are and the systems are and the management. It's less of you're more of a outdoors person or more of a conservationist. So I love the work I get to do now, which is bringing everyone together ⁓ under an umbrella that says, you belong. We want to grow your activity. And by the way, when we grow the pie for everyone, there's more slices of that pie. And people are.

try new things. And I don't know a single outdoor ⁓ enthusiast or someone who loves the outdoors who hasn't tried a different activity and been like, this is awesome or who isn't yearning to learn more or go beyond their limits. And so ⁓ I think if you don't have that growing up, you kind of have to learn it. And I hope more people are are understanding, you know, that ⁓ we're stronger together for sure.

Okay, I love everything that you're saying, and I want to put a pin in it because we're gonna come back to that. But before we get too far away from your childhood, I do have a follow-up question for you because part of this show is really built around this idea that when we have a lot of unfettered access to the outdoors as kids, that also helps to build resilient humans. But ⁓ as an adult now, as someone who's also working to create more access to the outdoors, ⁓

When you look back at that childhood, what do you, and not just the memories of being outside, ⁓ but what do you think all of that time outside gave you, like traits, capacity, kind of ways of moving through the world that you can really tell are benefiting you now in your career and as a parent?

I read so much literature now on these things that I'm like, yes, that's how I learned to like ⁓ solve problems or be on my own. I think some of the more like character developing is like the grit and the resilience ⁓ through really hard hikes, ⁓ really crappy snow day. I mean, the weather, I can't explain how much it sucks in upstate New York for a lot of the year. ⁓ And you're skiing and we did not have great gear or equipment, and you've got like four pairs of socks on top of each other that are wet and you're freezing. And like I think there's like ⁓

Speaker 1 (00:08:03)
the s the like suffering or something as a kid, even realizing like it's kind of cool. We're all in it together. We're gonna have hot chocolate. ⁓ and we're gonna have a story. Like we're gonna have this awesome story to tell. But I I have to say, I think it's a little bit, it's mostly about the physical for me when I was a kid of like getting through something hard, harder than I probably wanted to or uncomfortable. ⁓ And that helping me move through really the hard and uncomfortable

As an adult, which happens every day with kids and with work and with society with a million things. And you're like, I can get through hard things. And it and it translates, I think, now to the physical side too, is like, ⁓ I have to be outside every day. And I do really hard things outside as much as I can in an urban area to like reset my mind. And it is a hundred percent therapy for me.

I can identify with that as well as someone who really needs to move physically outside a lot to work through things. ⁓ and I'm curious what that looks like for you now.

Today it's very boring because of my kids in my job. But like ⁓ I do force myself to do at least, I know this does not sound like a lot of mileage for those of you out west who are working out all day, every day, but like I I have to get three miles outside a day, every day. And it can be walking, like this morning it was a run. ⁓ you know, it and it can be hiking on the weekends with my kids, which takes forever. That takes like hours and hours. So it's quite a feat. ⁓

Be your kids, Jess.

Speaker 1 (00:09:31)
They're they just turned three and just turned five. So like we're barely getting to three miles together. But you know, we we spend a lot of time at the beach in the summer here. And like I do find water as an adult. I think because I grew up on the water ⁓ on Lake Ontario. There's a lot that I that I that the water does for me. So my happy place is certainly like ⁓ swimming and kayaking and paddle boarding on the water. You know, I used to be into climbing and and you know, even mountain biking and things like that. And I that's just so ⁓

A much less approachable ⁓ as a, you know, I have like two hours after work with the kids. But we are institutionalizing like at ORR walking meetings. We don't need to be on Zooms all day. And so, you know, some days I'm getting six or seven miles just because I'm taking most of my calls by phone again, which is so refreshing. And it clears my mind. I think better, I work better. ⁓ but I am one of those, I'm like the the child in the relationship where like things aren't going well. My husband's like,

Why don't you go outside for a minute? Why don't you take a walk? I'm like, yes, I need to take a walk. I need to reset. But my kids, we walk every night after dinner, also. Like a weather, you know, obviously if it's terrible, but even in the rain, we're in our rain booths. And that's like an awesome family tradition that we've been able to incorporate. So I think it's the little things during the day that I do that get me outside. And then on the weekend we like to have, you know, a big adventure, whether it's the beach or the forest or a hike, a bike ride. My daughter's really into climbing now as a five-year-old. So that's been really exciting. Cause I'm like, okay, we're almost

ready to leave the gym and go outside. ⁓ But I just like am very excited for the day that we can have these bigger family adventures.

I love that you have set this quota for yourself. It's almost like writing a prescription for yourself, knowing what you need each day. And then knowing that you've built these outdoor traditions into the daily rhythm of your family. I mean, that speaks so much to the work that you're doing. So I want to pivot to talk about that a little bit to make sure ⁓ we can really understand what you're doing because you're doing some really big and important work. So outdoor recreation roundtable, which you're referring to as ORR. ⁓

Speaker 2 (00:11:37)
⁓ you have recently launched this effort called America's Outdoor Era. So it makes the case that outdoor recreation is a scalable, sort of like upstream solution to the health crisis. ⁓ and I know you had this kind of the first, I think, forum in DC in May. ⁓ and I'm curious what happened in that room that made you think like there's momentum here.

we can do something with this. And and also before you answer that question, if you can explain a little bit more about America's outdoor era, what you want to do, and then yeah, what you're seeing could happen.

We we've just like the team is so passionate about this, which I love. We all have young kids. We really ⁓ deeply care about the outdoors, which is why we're here, not in other industries. And ⁓ so it just feels like almost like a passion project, but it's work because ⁓ we all get our kids, you know, we laugh, but like in the mornings too, I'm like, make my kids like sit outside if we can have breakfast, get the morning light. Like we do all these things. And I'm like.

There's a reason, and and then we get into ⁓ the science behind it, and it's it's quantifiable, it's undeniable. ⁓ And yet we are so ⁓ broken as a system to connect these to health outcomes, to health care, to cost ⁓ as a nation. And and the only, you know, thing that could benefit from you know, there's many things that could be, but the outdoor industry that we represent is the is the biggest beneficiary of these things going right, along with, you know, obviously.

Healthcare for all Americans. And so as CEOs started talking about health more, I think it's been especially spast since COVID, ⁓ where you'll see like ⁓ RV CEOs we talked to or boat CEOs that traditionally weren't on the health side of things because they couldn't connect to the physical health side as much as like bike companies or ski companies. They're the ones talking about mental health and the mental health of like getting your family on RV trip and disconnecting from the screen or getting your family outside on the water, the blue mind. ⁓

Speaker 1 (00:13:37)
science is incredible what happens to your brain when you're near water. And you don't have to be paddling. You could be on a boat, you could be having a beer. Like it's just your brain on water is a wonderful brain. ⁓ And so as our industry started just talking about things more, we went to our board and said, we think there's an awesome opportunity to go really deep here. And we got the blessing, thankfully, from some really ⁓ you know, ahead of their time leadership. And this has evolved into ⁓

I think a pillar of what we'll look back on and be really proud of in our careers. And and we've done a lot already. So it's it's exciting to think that there's still another step. ⁓ I think the other genesis of this, besides just deep team passion, hearing from CEOs that this is a great place to be, the zeitgeist right now around health is so ⁓ big and it's such like a prominent national issue. ⁓ is really we needed a you know, 2025 came around. There's a lot of changes, ⁓ local, state, federal level, policy level.

And we were like, gosh, we wake up every morning, we don't know what's coming at us. We want some control over something that's proactive and positive. ⁓ And this is something that, like, it's great. We are working with administration. It's great they care about this. We are working with Congress. It's great they care about this. We are working with, you know, insurance companies ⁓ starting too. It's great that some of them care about this. But like we can drive at this without any of those things. Like we can do this ourselves. We can do this with strategic partnerships. We can do this with doctors. We can do this with healthcare centers, hospitals.

So I think we really needed a space for the industry to come together ⁓ that was opportunistic and proactive with all of the reactionary efforts that were underway and the defense efforts at the time. And it really has turned into that. And then some, like I just got off the phone earlier with the prominent Western governor's office, and like they're still talking about our forum and all the people they met and the ways that these ideas came together. And I think the

Science, research, and health community has been longing to be directly connected with the recreation community, and we're just coming around to it. ⁓ And, you know, 10, 15 years ago, it was probably almost 15 years ago. Now I sat in the White House ⁓ at the first and I think only meeting on this topic of REC and outdoors. And all of the very well-meaning people there were like, We need more data, we need clinical trials, we need peer-reviewed journal articles. ⁓ We've been talking about this for a year now with anyone who will listen, Democrat, Republican.

Speaker 1 (00:15:56)
House, Senate, administration, ⁓ no one once has asked me. ⁓ Not once for a data point, for a study, for a it's like, it's all you can read. If you really start to look, like we get hundreds of new articles. There's hundreds of new studies a day. ⁓ Someone was quoted at our event saying there's 11,000 peer-reviewed journal articles connecting nature to health. So it's just, it's empirical. ⁓ And that's been awesome to see the breadth and depth of work ⁓ that's happened over the past decade.

To get us to where we are today in the connection of the outdoors and health. And yet the system completely does not make that connection for American families and their everyday life. And I think that's where we're coming together. And that's really the gap we want to bridge.

And what would you view as success ⁓ with this initiative?

You know, I think success is that ⁓ everyone is educated on the importance of health me outdoors. And and that is a that is important, but we all know certain things are healthy or unhealthy. It doesn't mean we do them, right? Like it to make a lifestyle choice, it has to be easy and it has to be integrated into the things you already have to do. You have to go to work, you have to pick up your kids, your kids go to school. So it's really integrating into those systems ⁓ in a way that makes it easy and effortless.

So we've talked about, you know, even recess. Like some schools don't have recess. Recess should be mandatory, full stop. I don't know anyone who disagrees on that. There is a way to help move that policy. It's a little hard because education systems are more regional and ⁓ county level, but like there's something there. ⁓ healthcare systems, if you are the most unhealthy you've ever been for whatever reason, maybe it's a fall, an injury, maybe it's chronic disease, you're in a hospital. You are completely disconnected from natural light, the outdoors. ⁓

Speaker 1 (00:17:41)
For us, anything that we know is good for you. Like that is a system where we can integrate changes to help people. And the hospitals that have done that have faster healing times, people have much better health outcomes, lower cost of health, ⁓ and the workforce is happier. Doctors stay longer, nurses are healthier because there's also the workforce in these systems. Success to me is everyone knows they should be doing it. And then we've made it easy for them to do that, whether it's at a school, at the place they work, if they're in hospital. ⁓

And that, you know, at some point, insurance companies, ⁓ which is a very hard one, I'm, you know, ⁓ hit the holy grail on this, but like the way the health system is structured is terrible, as we know. And there's no incentivization structure for healthy living. ⁓ And we really need to do that in order to get preventative care on the docket for medical expenses or or pre-tax HSA FSA dollars, we've gotta change the system to incentivize healthy people, healthy choices.

And not just pay for once we're too far down the line, you know, and we have an issue. So there's a broader health system change. And I think we have a lot of smart people ⁓ that see how the outdoors and spending time outside and kind of getting back to basics with nature and play as a kid and touching grass and gardening and cooking our own food ⁓ can really over the long run help us with this five trillion dollar healthcare system that we've created for ourselves.

Everything you're saying is making me think also about just the research that we know about trees ⁓ and particularly conifer trees ⁓ that can put off immune boosting compounds. ⁓ yeah.

Hmm.

Speaker 1 (00:19:18)
I mean, yeah, it's incredible. The data's incredible. ⁓

It truly is. And just, you know, it can be easy to think, well, I'm gonna get outside for 10 minutes. Like if I go outside of my house and I take a walk around the block, that's great, I'm outside, but I'm actually not in a lot of trees. ⁓ But if I go to a trail and I can walk in the trees for the same amount of time, the benefit to my immune system and my body is is much higher. So that also raises this question, like that's beautiful, and I'm lucky I have great access where I live in Montana, but for a lot of people.

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:19:51)
That's not true. And so that does raise the question about access and how do we work to continue to help people who would like to maybe have more time outside or that's part of the systems that you're talking about, but how how do we do that and make sure it's equitable?

Yeah, and it's part of the systems, but it's also just like ⁓ what I what I love and hate about this whole thing is that like we talk about the infrastructure is already there for the most part. Like the like the outdoors is there, right? But it's connecting it. And ⁓ in some cases, you know, in some communities it isn't it's there, but it's not as green as we'd like it. It's not as safe as we would like it. But we worked with the children's hospital system. So CHOPS is one in ⁓ Philly. Like there's children's hospitals all over the country and

They they're an affiliated organization and they have been going really deep and paying for greener schoolyards in communities. So instead of just the blacktop, they make it green. They incorporate trees. They put down in some cases it's turf, in some cases it's grass. And it's crazy because like then they get all those benefits we just talked about that are like nature and health and trees, but it's like lowering the heat index at these schools by 20 degrees.

And then like kids' asthma is starting to go away and things like that because it's like cleaning the air that the kids are breathing, they're spending more time outside, they're enjoying. So it's that's such a small thing. We've just greened a plot of land for a group of kids and now they're out in it every day and it's changed their health. So some of these things are almost so simple ⁓ and so tangible that I think we we miss the boat because we make healthcare complicated and expensive. ⁓ and we do it on the back end. But if we can make it

cost effective and ⁓ really simple and do it on the front end. It's it's just ⁓ cre it the it's it's crazy when you see this children's hospital system ⁓ investing in this. And I'm thinking it's because of what we we care about, like mental health and physical health and the outdoors. And like, it's about heat and asthma. And I'm like, ⁓ yeah, it's about, you know, even even more serious chronic diseases or or, you know, more. And then also there's this additive like, I think things that we can't quantify yet, which is like,

Speaker 1 (00:21:59)
Kids feel invested in. They feel, you know, ownership and ⁓ proud of environments they live in. They're respecting the play area more because it's beautiful. Like it goes, it just snowballs and snowballs and snowballs. And I think we'll never be able to fully understand or quantify all of the ⁓ immense impacts that time outside has and all the things it can do. ⁓

and so each one of these small things is actually quite large, I think. And that's why it's exciting because it's it's doable, it's fixable.

And something you said earlier around like you could do this on your own, like you don't necessarily have to have governmental involvement. Like you can have partners and you can work with healthcare and you can work with outdoor companies and organizations. But something you have said is that you ⁓ you've seen support across ⁓ the political divide with this, which I really want to talk about because I know we're we're in a very

volatile political environment where we're seeing every day just really difficult public lands news. And so it can be really hard to separate those things. Like on the one hand, we see just these landmark landscapes ⁓ being dismantled. But on the other hand, I'm hearing you talking so positively about a future where we are engaging more productively and positively with ⁓ nature.

⁓ maybe because it's being approached from the sense of what's good for us as humans. What do you think about that?

Speaker 1 (00:23:27)
Yeah, I just think ⁓ I mean, I have a lot of thoughts on this and and some of I'll spare my very deep ⁓ thoughts about a lot of these things. But ⁓ I think we going I think we get caught up again in the ⁓ we it's easy to get caught up because they're important issues on what we disagree on. And like there has been like very, very recently, like ⁓ really monumental ⁓ changes. And I think ⁓ there should be disagreement there and ⁓ and people should ⁓

⁓ There is an opportunity to feel, ⁓ I think really upset about that and how people care about public lands. And if you live in Utah and maybe you didn't like the monuments to begin with, you feel a certain way. I almost feel like this health conversation, and it's hard to separate it from what's going on now, but it's it's so much bigger, it's so much more personal, and it's so much deeper. And it's not regional, it's not place-based, it's not political. ⁓

We had a round table ⁓ on health and the outdoors, and Secretary Kennedy ⁓ and Secretary Bergham came and they called and they're quoted in the press of saying public lands are health infrastructure, and we should protect public lands because it is basic health infrastructure and everyone should get outside. And then they launched a website called Get Active Get Outside that directs people to our national parks and public lands. So ⁓ it's it's like confusing if you're in the like day-to-day what's happening.

But I think if you pull back and you look at 10 years from now or 10 years ago, ⁓ I would have never imagined two cabinet secretaries of any political background calling public lands healthcare infrastructure. I wasn't even calling it that. I my brain was not there. ⁓ So I think as ⁓ a country, we've made a lot of strides. And I do think there is a unifying opportunity around this. ⁓ And that doesn't diminish the other things that are happening, but I think it is a place where we can actually educate people.

of why those things are important. Cause if healthcare is infrastructure or you know, outdoors is infrastructure, like then we should be making better decisions. So ⁓ I think there's a rolling opportunity as we get deeper into this. But it was just, I mean, it was my it was a moment, a big moment in time that I've been waiting for for a long time for anyone at the federal level of that ⁓ leadership level to understand what we've been talking about and for it to be two cabinet secretaries was pretty ⁓

Speaker 1 (00:25:43)
amazing. And of course, we're working with Democrats on a lot of these same things too. So I find this as one of the great ⁓ bipartisan opportunities left. You know, we're pushing on the America the Beautiful Act passage, which is 10 billion for outdoor recreation. The president wants to sign it. ⁓ Democrats are sponsoring it. It's got like 200 co-sponsors in the House, 70 co-sponsors in the Senate. It's widely bipartisan, widely supported. It's $10 billion for. ⁓

Public lands. Like I think we're gonna get that this year. And that's gonna help all of these efforts too. So we just are at ORR because we're such an umbrella organization. We are focused on the art of the possible and the opportunity before us. ⁓ And right now I do feel like health has a lot of opportunity.

You seem to be someone who is really good at straddling this line where you can look at both sides and say, I see where you're coming from and I see where you're coming from. Is that true? Do you feel like that?

I think I have to do that ⁓ for our work because we represent so many different ⁓ activities and businesses. But I think personally that's just how I mean it kind of goes up to the like what I was brought up doing. Like everyone's doing their thing and trying their hardest and and doing it differently, maybe. ⁓ you know, there's definitely some personal things that I like to have a line on, but when it comes to public lands,

Like they're super it's super complicated. It's often not black and white. And I've been in so many rooms where legislation has been created or policies been created. And like the deeper you go and the more you know people and the more you know communities and what they're asking for, like it's not, it's usually not clear cut or black and white. ⁓ and so I think that that's really helped me strata the line, even if I have my own beliefs, you know, I understand that other people's ⁓ are, you know, informed by their history, their economies, their jobs.

Speaker 1 (00:27:30)
and so that's been an approach I think I've always taken. ⁓ And that I always feel like there's a place of commonality. Even with there was a member of Congress when I was Outdoor Industry Association, I thought we had absolutely nothing in common. Like I was like, this is gonna be the hardest meeting we've ever had. You know, we went in with a bunch of companies, and ⁓ the first thing he said is, What do you think we have in common? Because I want to talk about that. And we found that we had something in common and we worked on it, and we actually ended up moving on legislation on that issue.

years later. So I it's a really cool thing to be able to find that. And then as you have that in common, I think you learn more about each other and then you learn more about the disagreements and and maybe come a little bit closer. ⁓ I think if anyone is telling me that ⁓ the outdoors is not the most important thing we can be doing in our healthcare system, I'm gonna have problem with that. You know, I don't have a common ground with you ⁓ there. But but I also think a lot of it is about education and ⁓ and this ⁓ economy, the outdoor economy. ⁓

And the public lands as a use for recreation ⁓ and the conservation of public lands as a public health use is like these are new things. And so I think it's gonna take a while for the appropriations ⁓ and the policies to ⁓ match up with oil and gas and timber and grazing, which have been ⁓ the highest priority uses of our public lands for decades.

You know, I also feel like when you get outdoors ⁓ recreating with someone else, ⁓ it's easier to have a conversation and find common ground with someone who has like very different views with you from you. And maybe it's just like the act of moving together through a space and experiencing overcoming this thing or you're doing something hard.

And that's proven through research. And ⁓ I mean, I have many of those experiences. I think, you know, because I've been outside in so many rural communities, Alaska. I mean, just crazy places where I've learned conservation ethos or migratory bird patterns from like someone I never thought would be teaching me about those things. But I think ⁓ some of our studies that that I think University of ⁓ Southern California has done this great study ⁓ on gang members taken out whitewater rafting.

Speaker 1 (00:29:34)
And the common ground they had to create as the river is so much bigger than them. And the and they had to like really work together. And then they saw the stars for the first time and they tested kind of their cortisol and all of their biological ⁓ readings. And they were just transformed both physically ⁓ and socially to better understand each other. And it's like that's the power of the outdoors, is you're on a river with someone you really don't agree with.

And you're like, okay, we gotta work together because this thing's way more powerful than we'll ever be. ⁓ And with teamwork, we can navigate this and we can learn a lot about each other. So the power is like of that exact example isn't lost. I mean, we try whenever we can to get members of Congress and governors and people really outside talking about these issues because we think that that is a place of common ground.

It's not easy to be someone who ⁓ can approach things from that way. And I'm sure like you've had you've probably met with people or tried to work on issues where you haven't had someone on the other side willing to to meet you on common ground. Why why do you think that that maybe this is going back to your childhood and kind of the way that you were raised and all of you know like accepting different types of the outdoors, but where like where did that come from?

For you.

I'm sure like a psychologist somewhere would ⁓ would say, ⁓ like I'm an only child.

Speaker 1 (00:31:01)
So you have to make friends ⁓ because you don't have any siblings and you really like want to have a lot of friends because you don't have these embedded champions. ⁓ So I'm sure there's something there about I gotta be friends with everyone and make everyone happy. ⁓ but I but I also think ⁓ I care so much about the outdoors that and what and the work that we do and the work that I've always done in this space that ⁓ turning

Away someone because they don't agree me with me on one thing ⁓ is not worth turning away. It's they might agree with me on something else. And I think that's what I found is like agree to get disagree on something. I've worked on, you know, I worked on Bearziers at Outdoor Industry Association a long time ago when we moved our trade show because of the monument rollbacks. And I still have relationships with the Utah governor's office from that that are very good relationships, even though we were at odds with each other about that decision.

And then we went on to work with each other on kids programming, on trail restoration, on amazing initiatives in Utah together. So it's like if you can't, you know, change someone's mind on an issue, I feel very strongly we have to uphold their values and especially for the recreation economy, always move forward what's best for the recreation economy. ⁓ But I don't close any doors. And I think right now we are utilizing relationships we've cultivated for years to move on this health ⁓ initiative. And I think it will have lasting impact. ⁓

Yeah. So speaking of lasting impact, like what do you think would change if we treated outdoor time as essential to both childhood development and also our own ⁓ daily well being? I'm thinking of it sort of like eating enough protein at breakfast every day and how that sets you up for a really good day. What do you think?

That's what we I love that example because we're actually trying to get ⁓ at our forum, we heard from some ⁓ doctors that like it's not it's not 10,000 steps a day, or they don't want it to be like 50 milligram, you know, 50 grams of protein. They don't want it to be that ⁓ prescriptive. But I do feel like we almost need something like that. Like people need a metric. Like I need my three miles. I feel like people need a ⁓

Speaker 1 (00:33:09)
Yeah, you you gotta do 20 minutes. It doesn't matter how, it doesn't matter where, just you gotta do 20 minutes. So we're thinking through what that actually looks like from a ⁓ medical system approach, because then you can work with healthcare companies, incentivize employer insurance companies. There's a lot of things to do once you have a number. ⁓ but I think it just looks like a healthier society. And and it it's the mental health, ⁓ it's certainly the physical health, it's the understanding each other more, things are bigger than you.

But what I found, Rich Louvre is a, I think you've interviewed him. ⁓ His so he spoke at our event and he has a new book coming out called Noticing that maybe he talked about. ⁓ And so since I spent some time with him and I've been noticing, I was like, wow, I get outside so much. I really am outside a lot. I sometimes I work outside like I'm just on my patio working. And it's very rare that I'm not on a phone call or working or listening to podcasts or, you know, something, doing something efficient during the day.

And so I stepped back and I was like, I'm just gonna not do that anymore. I'm gonna try to notice like as much as I can. ⁓ And it was transformative. I was like, there I saw a fox the first time I did it. I didn't even know there was a fox in my neighborhood. I mean, it was I'm like, how many times has this fox run by me? And I'm just like, ⁓ so ⁓ you know, I think it's it's the little things, like the more you notice, the more grateful you are, and the more ⁓ I think, ⁓ spiritual, all of these amazing things, but it's it's so small.

⁓ and and you don't have to do anything besides just be in the moment and and not be on your phone and not be looking at your screen. So I loved that he gave that ⁓ tidbit test. I'm excited for his book. But the other crazy thing about his speech, because ⁓ hopefully people had have listened to him ⁓ on your podcast, was ⁓ he went pretty deep into like fairies and the magic of the woods. And we are a very bipartisan audience. We had two cabinet secretaries. I was sitting next to someone that golfs with.

The president all the time. And I was like, so I've leaned over to this very Republican person, a prominent person. And I said, What did you think that? And he said, I really related to the magic of the what's part. Like I feel like the magic of the I was like, What? Like the f he's like, I liked the fairies part. And I was like, This is a unifying, this is just it's the way you feel. You feel human, you feel good, you feel like there's something bigger than you, and you want to contribute. And that I think is even

Speaker 1 (00:35:30)
⁓ more important than health ⁓ benefits that we can quantify. And those are the intangibles. And I think that's part of what's always been hard about outdoor recreation is the intangibles are sometimes more powerful than ⁓ what we can quantify. And so it's hard to talk about it. But now that we have people seeing and believing and feeling it, I think it's really exciting.

And also a lot of outdoor recreation is sort of along the lines of like the rest of our culture is there's this aspirational element of like going higher, reaching the top of the mountain, conquering the thing, going farther, bolder, bigger. ⁓ And this idea of noticing, like Richard Louvre talks about, and I love your example of you notice this fox coming by. So I was smiling as you were talking because I am similar. I work outside a lot. ⁓ I am very goal-oriented.

And I'm a trail runner, but I also like to train. So I like to train for races and I go out and do a workout. And as I was preparing for my interview with Richard Lou, which for those of you all listening, ⁓ will link to that episode in the show notes. It was the first episode of the podcast. ⁓ but I started trying to just stop in the middle of runs ⁓ and just get down low on the ground and start looking around.

And kind of see what I could notice. ⁓ And you're right, when you can just, and I thought I was really good at noticing and I was spending all this time immersed in nature. But to do that with a mission of getting to a destination or just being there without paying attention is so completely different than sort of doing nothing, but being present. ⁓ and we are at a time where we're just especially with the introduction. ⁓

of more and more AI everywhere we look. It's like productivity is now I don't even know the words to use. I mean we're at we're being asked to be more productive productive than ever.

Speaker 1 (00:37:21)
Yep. And what's going to be really interesting about AI and all the technologies is like it could pull us farther from nature. You know, every generation is less connected to nature than the one before, which is wild. But and it will continue that way. ⁓ or can pull us closer because we have more information and data showing us that we need that we are nature. Like we literally the only thing that separates us from the AI thing recording this is like we are nature. ⁓ And so we

should probably can stay connected to nature. So we don't just become AI. ⁓ but also that we're gonna have more free time than ever, potentially, with ⁓ with AI creating a ton of opportunity for ⁓ leisure time. And what are people going to do with that? And that could that could connect us too. So I like again, I think we always try to think of the optimistic side of these things. ⁓ But like I got an aura ring and ⁓ I'm ⁓ fascinated by ⁓

These studies that the CDC, I met we meet with the CDC a lot. We're, you know, having these really interesting conversations. And oncology ⁓ researchers in CDC are having women with stage four breast cancer in recovery wear aura rings and they're tracking their fitness and ⁓ activity levels. And those with high activity levels have less of a reoccurrence of breast cancer, right? So there's like just deep connectivity. ⁓ And like what we want to do is we want to be like,

And can you tell how much of that was outside? Or like, is there a correlation between being outside? Because now we have these wearables and these trackables and the whoops. And like, so there's just all these phases of this, of things that we don't even know that we have yet to understand about yes, maybe it is activity. Women, you know, who are in recovery of breast cancer, who are more active, are gonna have better outcomes. But what if they're more active and they're outside? Are they even better outcomes? And I look at my stress levels when I'm outside.

dip. Like I look because now I can see all that stuff. And it's really cool. ⁓ and and the more we can share that, we had a eye doctor from Johns Hopkins, like the leading, you know, eye care ⁓ clinical, ⁓ clinical clinician in the country. And like nearsightedness is a huge problem because kids aren't outside enough. And so they aren't seeing distance. So they're not developing their eyesight. Some are like close to going blind. So they have to prescribe getting outside 20 minutes a day ⁓ so they can develop their eyes. I mean this is

Speaker 1 (00:39:35)
Gut health is completely linked ⁓ to being outside. And our one of my favorite ⁓ webinars we had was this gut health doctor who studied children in like a wall dwarf, like an outdoor preschool. And their guts are completely different from kids who are indoor preschool. Thousands more microbacteria, and they're set up for a healthier life because they're constantly outside. ⁓ And so, how can we take these learnings and incorporate them into a system that actually supports ⁓ the funding and the infrastructure for connecting it? And

And I think that's where we're headed and I am just really ⁓ lucky to be a part of all that.

You're making me feel much better about ⁓ my fifteen month old taking a handful of compost and shoving it. ⁓

As long as it doesn't have pesticides in it, yeah. Compost should be fine.

No festival. There is probably some slightly rotting food, but maybe it's good for his gut.

Speaker 1 (00:40:27)
Totally okay. Yep, it doesn't it's better than the parasite going around, so

So I I read something else that you said that like a lot of parents, you're watching your kids grow up in a world that makes it easier than ever to stay inside. And we've talked about this a lot already, but we've touched on the AI just a little bit here and this idea of unplugging from screens and being outside. ⁓ and I I'm I'm hung up on something that you just said about each generation getting further and further from outside. And I'm in my mind thinking, well, all of the work that you're doing might reverse that actually. You might help to get

create a system that changes that so we go in the other direction. ⁓ but I imagine all of this feels even more urgent for you right now because you're a parent. ⁓ yeah. So can we talk about that and like the indoor poll and screens and and everything that you're feeling doing this work as a parent of two small kids.

Yeah, I mean, I think I I'll always have guilt for them not being in like a Waldorf school, you know? And I'm I'm that parent. Like there was two weeks of like an ice storm here and it was just icy. And the kids never got outside school. And I was like, my God. And I respect the teachers and I love the school, but I'm like two weeks. And then by the time they came home, because it's middle of winter, it's like five o'clock, five thirty, it's pitch black. It's icy in my driveway. So, you know, those sorts of things like they do cause me probably more anxiety than the normal parent because I just know. But I think we

I think we make it, I I think we try to embody kind of the work that I'm doing was make it simple, make it easy, make it fun. And like we don't worry for the kids at least too much about the metrics. Like we get them outside when we can. We spend all of our weekends outside because we're having fun. It might be at a pool, you know, it might be, you know, at a at a playground. ⁓ but they really love the outdoors. And I think what we've been really ⁓ intentional about is just when it's not fun anymore.

Speaker 1 (00:42:16)
Like take a pause, you know, like we want them to work hard, play hard, try hard. ⁓ But, you know, it doesn't if they're if they're tired, if it's the end of a long week, if you know, we're not gonna push those things because we want it to continue to be enjoyable. And, ⁓ you know, I just see my kids are always better versions of themselves when they're outside. So it ⁓ it really ⁓ even a little bit of time, you know, at the end of the day that we do, ⁓ or the weekends when we wish we could do more, it it's just that moment where I can see them being their best selves by a creek.

At the side of the road. I'm like, let's get out, let's go. And they play in the creek for an hour. It's just so great to see. And it reminds me of my childhood. And I'm really hoping that they have those memories because that's those are my memories. And ⁓ one of the things that Catherine Price's author said was kids don't have memories anymore because they're just scrolling. So you don't develop memories are a very complicated ⁓ brain development. And it's usually when you're experiencing, you have to experience it yourself. You can't be passive.

And it has to like awe-inspiring, whether it's good or bad. It like inspires awe. And usually you get those memories outside. So if you're not outside, like what are your memories? You're just scrolling and watching. And I and I think the last thing that we've done is screens are not the something we even talk about. Like ⁓ if it's ⁓ we were just on an international flight, they can watch three movies. Like that is total there is no ⁓ problem with screens, but like

During the weekdays and even the weekends, we don't really think about it or talk about it. But if they're dying to see something or they bring it up, it's like an open, we watch TV. ⁓ I think they're still too young. They don't have like their own handheld screens or anything. But it's it's definitely not a forbidden thing. But I feel like it's we don't make it a thing at all. And then when we're on a car ride or a flight, we're like, screen time. ⁓ And we make it fun for them. Like it's exciting. They know if they're gonna be sitting on a plane for three hours, they get to watch a big movie. ⁓ so I don't.

You know, I'm not as worried about screens as much at their age, but what I would say is I think that pendulum is shifting enough that you might be right. Like we might with little kids avoid what unfortunately the last generation had to deal with with their kids because we know so much more. My mom was a superintendent of school district. ⁓ She said their whole goal was to fund the schools so enough so every kid could have a screen all day. Like that's what they thought was right for the kids. That was like

Speaker 1 (00:44:34)
Their goal as a school. And now we've got those same schools are going screen-free. ⁓ So I just think we've totally went here and I think we're slowly going back. And it's just in time. You know, I don't think social media is gonna be as big of a thing. I think we know way too much about that now. ⁓ I think like even the TikTok, all that stuff, the ⁓ the younger generations are just really pushing back on that. They're starting to have more in-person experiences. So ⁓

We might be, you know, raising kids in a generation that looks more like ours actually than it has in the past thirty years.

Yeah, and I think the other side of that, like the other side of the screen conversation, it's so easy to focus on like kids in screen time that it's easy to forget about parents in screen time. That's something we've been talking a lot in our household about because, you know, you see a message come in or your email from work and just trying to make sure to compartmentalize that and kind of put it away so that yeah, our kids aren't getting you know, having bids for attention and we're on our phone missing it or, you know.

A random text message from a friend about a plan in a few days is not as important as your kid out.

Totally. And there's so much great, you know, there's a lot of great articles about that. I think for me, that's probably way harder because sometimes I am getting urgent texting calls. And like my daughter's gonna get home at four o'clock today from camp. And like I've got ⁓ some significant things, you know, after that. But I'm really honest about them. Like, this is a this is a very busy time at work, and this is what I'm working on.

Speaker 1 (00:46:03)
And if I get a text, I just want you to know it's because I'm trying to help the world and I'm trying to save the trees. And you know, I'll talk about it in a way. And so if I get a text, she's Mom, is this about saving, you know, ⁓ but yes, like otherwise, I then I go through seasons where I don't have to be, you know, as present on my phone and I don't have to check things and like we can put it away. But I I think some honesty around it, like it is life. And ⁓ and I I get work calls sometimes and I'm and I have to be online or work text or

And ⁓ you know, they they just understand it as work and not as something that's more important than them, but something that, you know, seasonally gets busier. And then other seasons like I'm not working at all. So, you know, I remember my mom going to work at night ⁓ or my dad because they had work. So it's kind of the same thing. It's just in the house, which I think is harder.

I so appreciate the way that you framed that and also ⁓ clearly you're very mindful about how you bring it up. I love that you're saying like, hey, this is about the trees or saving the world. And you're giving yeah, you're giving your daughter this framework to see you too in this like really important professional light, which I imagine is also

Part of helping her to see like I can do big things and save the world too, like my mom. Like that's really powerful.

You know, honest, and I think it would be more stressful for me to be parenting two kids, especially if like my husband's out, to be parenting two kids alone when there's like two big emails. Like we had a grant last night that we that was due. ⁓ And I was like, I need to take a 20-minute break to get this grant in so that I can be completely present. I'm not rushing through bedtime. Cause I've been there those nights where you're just like, get the kids to bed because I gotta do something again. I'm like, I don't want to rush through those moments. I wanna like.

Speaker 1 (00:47:41)
Figure out what I need to do, be honest about it. And then if they take two hours to get to bed, it's like no sweat, you know, like we can enjoy that together. So but it's taken me a while to ⁓ figure that out. Take me two kids. ⁓

I think that's really great. I think that's a really good takeaway for any parents listening who have work that creeps into home life. I know I've had a few similar situations where I've said, hey, I have to get this done right now and I'll be present with you afterwards. And when I have done that versus like trying to squeeze it in, it's so it feels so much better. Yeah. So that's a great tip. ⁓ I know we're we're getting near the end tier of time and I want to be really respectful of your time and we've really only focused on kind of what you're working on right now.

⁓ so I'm curious if there's anything else that you really want to dive into or you think is really helpful to share in this context. I mean, you've done so, so much. I mean, I could spend two hours asking you about all of your work. So

that no ⁓ it's like ⁓ it's it's been it's been awesome it's been it's awesome to talk to people like you that are passionate and living it and ⁓ I ⁓ so thank you for having me and no I I think like this health thing ⁓ is ⁓ the I just you know you get little spidey senses like I had it on a couple of things I worked on with the with the administration I worked for ⁓

⁓ I had it with the Explore Act when I was at the verge, the very front end of it was like a decade before it passed. Like, there's something here and this is exciting. I had it with Great American Outdoors Act the first time it passed, with some policies we've gotten through. ⁓ Like I have it again right now that like this could be a breakthrough. I mean, this could be huge. ⁓ And ⁓ everything we spend our time and money on, or we get Instagram ads for or whatever, has like a ⁓ outdoor antidote, ⁓ you know? So ⁓

Speaker 1 (00:49:28)
⁓ you know, think about melatonin that people take, but you can also go outside in the morning. I think about vitamin D, but you know, that's how you get from outside. I think about gut health. Well, you get that from the trees. ⁓ you think about, you know, eye health, you get that. I think about physical. So it's not instead of, and I think that's just a lot of our work or work on rural development, or work on economy, or work on ⁓ you know, even public lands recreation use. It's not instead of anything. ⁓ It's completely supplemental, but it's gonna make everything work better.

And it's gonna make everything easier. ⁓ And I think in this case, it's gonna make people a lot healthier and they don't have to spend a ton of money on supplements. ⁓ These things are, you know, naturally happening in the outdoors. We were made to be outside. And so our bodies are made to like take these amazing things that we get and like make them work for us. ⁓ And ⁓ something really struck me with a doctor that he's the CEO of a huge ⁓ health system and a cardiac surgeon out in Tahoe. And he was at our event.

And he was saying, ⁓ you know, he interviewed all these ⁓ practitioners and doctors, nurses and on supplements. They were going pretty deep on supplements at their hospital system. And he's like, what supplement actually works? Like, what is something that actually we need that, you know, if you don't have enough of it's a problem and you should spend the money on a supplement. And they all basically just said it's vitamin D. And then he was like, but is that because and they're Yeah, because we're not getting outside enough. So it's like, you know, it's just, I think that just distills the whole thing, is like,

What we actually need is a supplement. You do need vitamin D as a supplement if you're not getting enough vitamin D and you're not getting enough vitamin D for a lot of it could be seasonal, like it could be you can't physically get outside. There's definitely legitimate reasons why. ⁓ but you it just you have to be outside. You need vitamin D. We call it vitamin N. ⁓ nature prescriptions are real and I think they're gonna be ⁓ I think they're gonna be ubiquitous. I think they're gonna be throughout the whole healthcare system. Like I just got asked to have an event with a senior

administration official to get doctors who are prescribing nature, you know, on public lands. So I mean there's real things that are exciting and happening. And I think, you know, your community and everything, if we can keep showing up in our community to connect the dots ⁓ and that can become scalable and and and these things can become replicable that are working, ⁓ you know, at the end of the day, maybe it doesn't matter if there's national policy change. It doesn't matter if, you know, United Healthcare or Pfizer get on board with it.

Speaker 1 (00:51:52)
We're gonna do it anyway. And we have amazing partners lined up to do it, amazing doctors, healthcare providers that really care, and community leaders that wanna get it done. And that is like the holy grail.

Yeah. So if we have one distilled takeaway from this, it's like just like you're trying to get in three meals a day and the right amount of protein and all of these things, like get outside and get outside in nature and figure out a rhythm that makes sense in your daily life for that. Even if it's like sitting under the tree in your backyard for 10 minutes.

Hunt make it habitual so it's daily, hopefully, easy. ⁓ It inserts into your daily life. And like if you can do it with someone else, that's great. But the studies show if you do it alone, you actually feel less lonely ⁓ because you nature makes you feel like there's something bigger than yourself and connected with the world, even if you're alone. So you can do it any way that makes sense. ⁓ And you know, I think it's on all of us to make sure that all of our community members can.

can do that, whether it's they need the time, they need the transportation, they need the access, the infrastructure. You know, I think that's where ⁓ the rubber meets the road of like lowering healthcare costs and making communities as a whole healthier systems.

Jessica, thank you so much for your time today, ⁓ for being on the podcast, and for all of the work that you've done and are doing to help get more Americans outside on a regular basis in a way that is meaningful ⁓ and really supports lasting change. ⁓ Before we end, I just want to say, is there ask you, is there anything that listeners can do to help support the work that you're doing and to further support it besides just getting out in their communities?

Speaker 1 (00:53:32)
You know, my ⁓ my senior vice president is on the PTA of her school, trying to get more outdoor time. And she's chairing the mental health committee and connecting the outdoors. So I just think there's things like that that can happen in any community, whether it's the PTA, whether it's the parks, ⁓ you know, local national ⁓ local parks board. But there's like anything, any of that work makes a difference. And it's been so cool to watch her PTA journey.

Of like a school, a very, very good, you know, Montgomery outside of DC health. It's one of the best school systems in the country. ⁓ And sometimes they don't go outside, they don't have recess every day. And she's like, this is crazy, you know? And so ⁓ helping with that, you know, I think is just, you know, something that you don't think you can make a difference in. And it's really making a difference. So I'm really inspired by her and you know, people that are taking all of this on at the local community level, because I think that's where you can see the change.

Yeah, get involved locally. Well, thank you so much. I will link to resources that we talked about in the show notes. So please check those out. ⁓ and Jessica, again, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you for having me and for the thoughtful questions.

Speaker 2 (00:54:50)
Conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who is trying to raise ⁓ or reclaim a little more wild in their own life.

Raising Wild is a production of Wild Idea Media, hosted, produced, and edited by Ashley Arnold. Digital support is provided by Holly Wilkeshewski at Daypack Digital. Our executive producer is Bill Hodge. You can find show notes, resources, and more at theWildea.com. And we'd love to hear from you. So leave us a note, question, or share your ideas on our website. ⁓