Project Zero I The Evolution of the Singapore Sound: Behind the NDP Hits I Don Richmond & Evan Low

0:00
Hey, this is Shabir Sulthan. In this episode of Project Zero, we're diving deep into the success and failures of our NDP (National Day Parade) songs and how producers approach the Singapore sound. Joining us are two eminent figures in the music scene. First up, we have Don Richmond, a Singaporean award-winning singer, songwriter, music director, composer and producer. Don served as the music director for NDP and composed the theme song "Stronger Together". He's also responsible for composing music and lyrics for"Ah Boys To Men, The Musical". Next, we have Evan Low, a music producer and director who graduated from the prestigious Berklee College of Music with a Magna Cum Laude. Evan has also co-arranged and co-produced the National Day Parade music from 2018 to 2021 and most recently penned and produced the well-loved 2021 NDP theme song "The Road Ahead" with Linying. He has also produced this year's theme song with Benjamin Kheng. Join us as we unravel the intricacies of our NDP songs and explore how producers approach the unique Singapore sound. This is Project Zero, A Journey to discover the Singapore Sound. Alright, so welcome to the episode and I have two very special guests with me from the fraternity. I've got Evan and Don. You guys know them. Guys, thank you very much for gracing this roundtable for a discussion.- Our pleasure, handsome. - Yeah, very round, very graced. Yep. And I want to start off by talking about the most important thing, which is what is the Singapore sound? It's the question we've been asking a lot of people, you know, we're coming towards the end of this season of Project Zero. And of course, you know, it is about the journey to discover a Singapore sound. But it started off with some people saying, if we have to talk about it, then there's no Singapore sound.- Mmm. - Mmm.- That kinda thing, you know.- Well, that's a good point. Yeah, and another person says that, you know, of course there's a Singapore sound. What are you talking about, man? The kind of thing. Then there's someone else, "Hmm, is there one?" There's a question. So I realized that Singaporeans are, we artists, Singaporean artists, we're kind of split about this, producers, artists, singers. And I thought it would be great to have a consensus on it, you know. Come together, talk about it, agree, disagree, share our ideas. So let's start with Evan. What is a Singapore Sound? What does it mean to you? I think, you know, just latching on to some of the points you said, I think if we... See, this is a very methodical, very studied Singaporean approach where...- Mmm. - Ah, Singapore sound must have a formula. We gotta have a rules and a what scale, what chord we use. I don't think that is the case. I actually do think it needs to be a natural process.- Mmm. - Um... I do not think there's a Singapore sound right now. Do we need one? I don't know. But I do think there needs to be a collective, whether conscious or subconscious effort to work towards exporting our culture. And I think along the process of this, will birth a Singapore sound. I think you just look at the history of... I think even our most recent rise of K-pop. They do have the advantage of linguistics.- Yeah. - But there's also just a collective effort to just kind of push out, either by the government or also by the whole nation themselves wanting to export a pop culture. Part of the tourist effort, right? Tourism effort, but also they just love the culture. And I think they have the advantage of linguistics. But for us, I think that's even more interesting because we are melting pot of cultures and sounds. Along that, I mean, we also are bi, tri, quad lingual in many cases.- Yeah. - So I think we understand the nuances. And I think we just need to kind of put our heads together or just kind of work towards a common goal. But not having all these... a clear... We do not need to have a playbook even before the game has started. So we should just kind of... I suggest we go with the flow, but keep the big goal at the end in mind. That's how I think it is. Because I think, you know, if you were to think about it in the past historically, Shout out to our boy Dick Lee, I think in the past, there was a huge surge of support for local music during... Was it The Mad Chinaman period? Yeah, I mean, those were probably the Pony Canyon days, they call it, right? Where they actually had money being pumped into an industry where people were making albums and all that. But I think it's a bit hard to kind of say, okay, is there really a Singapore sound? Because Singapore as a country, you know, is like what Evan said, is like a melting pot of cultures. And it's small enough to really just be a city, right? So if you look at like the States, right? If you live in New York and you live in LA (Los Angeles), chances are the music that you grow up around and the music that you grow up making sounds really different because it's really a geographical thing. There's the Chicago sound, there's Atlanta sound. So for us, I think it's a little bit, you know, we are disadvantaged and there is an advantage at the same time because we do not have mass, right? So it's very hard to say, oh, you know, I'm repping the Hougang sound. Hougang - (A Neighbourhood in Singapore). You know what I mean? I'm repping the Hougang sound. I know, right? But my BTO (Build to Order Flats) in Jurong! Yeah, exactly, right? So it's a bit... I think it's a bit difficult that way. But I think Singapore and Singaporeans as a whole, we are... we really are a culture that absorbs everything and we spit it out at the same time, right? Looking at us, Singaporeans can recognise each other. But when we are abroad, right, it's very hard for I think any other nationality to look at us and kind of go, are they Singaporeans? Chances are people will never ever guess where we come from. And so I think in a sense we reflect that and our music reflects that as well. That we just somehow... the Singapore sound is really the music that we all grew up with and then we sort of like spew it back out as writers, as performers. And that really is the Singaporean sound as opposed to like, okay, does it need to have this instrument? Does it need to have that instrument? Does it need to have this kind of singing? I don't think... like I agree with Evan, I don't think there needs to be any sort of constrain or rules to say this is the sound. And that defeats the purpose of making art or music, having so many rules and you know, constriction. Yeah, exactly. I do agree with that. One thing that Evan said resonated with me, where he said that he used the word"collective consciousness". Do you think we have a collective consciousness on what we want to do as an industry, as a fraternity? Because my view is that we're all operating in silos pretty much. We're all in our own, you know, comfort zones, in our own scenes, doing our own thing. And cross-pollination happens during NDP(National Day Parade) Chingay, when it's convenient. But it's not... it's something which I've always thought about. If you're in China or India or you know, these big countries and you want to feature someone who plays a particular instrument from a contrasting culture, it's challenging. Right. Let's not talk about the internet, but let's say to meet and collaborate. Okay. Because they could live like a hundred thousand kilometers away from you. Yeah, right. But in Singapore, the Kompang is just a call away and the Zhongruan is just a text away. And the Thavil is also just a text away. And despite that, I don't resort to reaching into that and using it in my music. Yes. And I always wonder why. And one of course very direct answer is genre. Yes. Because your genre may not allow it. And we had this conversation in the episode when we were talking about identity in pop, where pop artists already have the very difficult task to find a space in the (Audio) playlisting. Yeah. And to do all this, it seems like it's too much of a task to incorporate your identity, your roots, your culture, unless it's going to help me make my song into a hit. Right. We understand that. But what is the thing that repels us from making it normal, like turning into something normal to collaborate with someone from another culture? Because we are a multicultural nation and it makes sense to actually quickly reach out to my friend who plays this particular instrument and just sample it and try it. Yeah. In hip hop, they do it quite a bit, I think. Yeah. But in pop, it's a bit of a challenge and in other genres as well, like jazz and funk and all that. Do you think it is possible for us to gain that collective consciousness to understand each other a bit better in terms of musicality, like understand each other's musical cultures, traditions, styles, genres? Do you think that's something that we can aspire while maintaining our own authenticity in our genre? Do you think that that has benefits? Don, I'll start with you. I think it definitely has benefits, but I think what that needs to happen or how that needs to happen is through, I would say industry leaders. And when I say industry leaders, we're talking about you then. No, no, no. So what's the plan? I'm a weird hermit just sort of like in my place. If I'm not playing Diablo, then I'm making music. No, no. For example, I think if you look at the trajectory of an artist in Singapore, you start off if you're a producer, you know, Evan, you probably were a bedroom producer for a while and you were just making your own beats and everything's very insular, right? And so even your, I guess your view on collaboration is also sort of a little bit myopic, but I think only at a certain level, by the time you get to your level, by the time you get to the level you're at now is that idea of like, well, I shouldn't just be focusing on just myself. Now, I can collaborate. So I think the whole idea of that is having to set the trend by industry leaders, like, so to say, big brother, big sister or something like that, and then I think that sets forth the whole idea of collaboration and maybe even being open to the idea. But I think if you're a 15 year old, just with you just first bought your laptop and you're making beats at home, I think the focus is very different because you're just trying to get good at what you're doing. And it's very hard to Or you're trying to pick up girls. Yeah. You know what? Precisely why I picked up the guitar. Come on, there's really only one pursuit. Why people do music? Let's be honest. Exactly. 100%. You heard it here. But latching onto your comment. I think I totally agree with Don. On which one? So many things have happened. Oh, yes. About his backstory, 100% but also on having an industry leader. It's totally true. But more importantly, I think the easiest way, right, is you just have to make it cool. Yeah. The person that's charging, leading the front just has to make it cool so that everyone kind of adopts the concept. And I agree. Strangely, in a world of the Internet where it's.. where everything's so open on, collaboration is easy. It's a simple text, the way we get very myopic. We just kind of... and I mean... I catch myself doing that. And of course, I catch the younger generation because everything is so... it's so easily done in just one device now that you don't really need anyone. So that's one. It's very easy for you to just kind of just stay there and stay within the realms of a comfort zone or just push the envelope a little bit. On top of that, while you're releasing material now in the digital world, there's very clear metrics of what is successful, what's a successful sound. And I realize a lot of the majority of the people I witness and work with tend to just be a lot more safe. Yeah. So and they say, OK, this works. And I understand because. All right. And so they just sort of like follow, you know, like like what's trending now? Because you need to Cari Makan In this country, we need to make sure everything is kind of viable. We need to Makan (eat), we need to make things sustainable. And I understand you need to play that game. So I understand why that's a priority above all else. But actually, ironically, if you actually push the boundaries, like, you know, a lot of the the artists and the composers that we look up to now, I don't know, Pop, Billie (Eilish)? And we talked about outside the room that Ludwig (Göransson)? it's people that push the boundaries, actually bringing more work. That's actually once it once they realize that right. And they realize they can make something cool and they can be an industry leader at that forefront. Right. This will change. Right. So I do feel that once we just need someone to make it cool. And when we say push the boundaries and someone to make it cool, we're talking about doing something with the Singapore sound, whatever it may be. We're talking about that, right? We're pushing it in that area like a Kompang in a pop beat or something. Anything. And that's the challenge because there is a lot of potency in that, I believe, like, you know, tapping into another culture to excite yourself because we musicians we're very sensitive. Right. Oh, yeah. We're probably more sensitive than other people. And we need to constantly stay fertile, you know, because we need I'm talking like as if I'm meaning something else, like a double entendre. I don't mean anything else. I got a bit nervous. I was like, wow... this guy is trying to stay fertile. We've got to constantly feel like virgins Uh, okay! At every turn... So when we expose ourselves, I'm a child, I'm a child... I can't even look him in the eye now We expose ourselves to different cultures and styles. We get excited and we want to try that. My argument is that all that is available here in Singapore. We don't have to go looking for it too far away. because if let's say I am going to be in Arizona, it's going to be a lot more challenging to find an Erhu. Yes. And that is something which I have, you know, who is available and I can sample it, try it, mangle, do some crazy*stuff* with it and try and put it in my track. But the truth is I don't do it as much. I don't think any of us like do it as much as we could do it. Yeah. And we are saying that there needs to be people who do it, industry leaders who do it and make it stylistic and make it something for others to kind of jump on the bandwagon. And then things could change. Yeah. Do we do we do we agree on that? Yeah, absolutely. And then again, there wouldn't be a single Singapore sound. No, they're going to be Singapore sounds because every artist is going to have a different take on it. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, definitely. Sorry, I don't mean to cut you off. I just see it as a movement, maybe. More movement than a sound. And for a movement to happen, there needs to be collective consciousness. Yes. Yeah. So everybody needs to be on the same page in that sense. Or at least similar pages. Yeah. And I think that's the challenge for us because it's not just music in terms of identity. Don't you think that the Singaporean identity itself is a very challenging thing to pin down? Oh, my God. Yeah. Because in order to have a particular identity, you need to be insular for a long period of time. Absolutely. Which we never had the luxury of because out of necessity, we had to open up immediately and we're still open. Yes. And there was a time where there was a particular TV culture where we were watching certain shows and sitcoms and all of us can talk about one thing. Yes. But now you could be talking about anime and I'll be talking about, I don't know,"Dubai Bling" (Netflix Reality Series). I don't watch that. But yeah, anyway, let's just go with that. And Don could be watching- He doesn't watch that, but he referenced that. Yeah. And Don could be watching, you know. Stuff. Stuff. Cannot say on camera. So the thing is like we all can be and it's no longer like we come together and we're like, hey, did you check out what happened in like PCK last night? PCK - Phua Chu Kang (Singapore Sitcom) But there used to be a thing at one point. It's not that anymore because the media does not have captive audience anymore. Everybody's doing their own thing. One person is on TikTok, on the gram (Instagram) and, you know, streaming platforms, et cetera. And given the fact that we're so diverse in how we acquire content, music, art, it's so difficult to have a common identity. Yeah. It's being shaped by so many different things. And the influx of foreigners and immigrants is constantly changing the landscape as well, the cultural landscape as well, the social landscape. In this setting, it's very difficult. None of us are cultural or social experts here, but we are artists. So we're just talking from our perspective. In this kind of setting, how is it even possible to create that collective consciousness and have that kind of movement? And don't forget, you've got artists who are leaving the country as well. Yeah. But then again, that's always been the age old thing, like Singaporeans, I think, as a whole, we're wandering spirits in a sense that, we're... - Nomads. And I kind of attribute it to this very weird, maybe it's post-colonial sort of self-esteem issues or anything, right? It's sort of like, oh, well, you know, if I go away and I do well, then maybe I come back a hero. As opposed to like, well, if I stay here and I just sort of try to forge- Because we're so small. So I think it's quite difficult to sort of like work that way. I mean, like for you, Shabir, like, was there any big cultural change for you? I mean, like when you went over to India to... For sure, man. And what you say is the truth. I went to India and I came back to Singapore during COVID-19 and suddenly like it's different for me. The graph is different in Singapore. The kind of projects we're getting is different because now you're seen as someone who has gained experience in a larger industry. Unfortunate, but truth. Absolute truth. But also as I think for you, the development as an artist, I think it was probably exponential. For sure. The minute you were exposed to a bigger... Yeah, it's a huge industry with a different level of musicianship. And you're rolling with everyone and you're learning new things and you're understanding new things and incorporating that into your art and you're being influenced and you know you have to level up. You can't chill. You've got to because, you are colleagues with like, A.R. Rahman, Grammy award winning, Oscar winning composer. His song and your song are fighting for the same (radio) airspace. So this is crazy! You've got to really push the envelope in every way that you can. And in Singapore, we have a tendency to work a lot, but not really create in that sense. Because we don't have that environment where creatives can push each other because you know, you've got bills to pay and rising costs of living, GST (Goods and Services Tax), that kind of thing. It's challenging. But in India, you can just not do anything for one month and still be okay.- Oh, yeah? - Yeah, you can do that. And that breeds a certain time and space to get really creative and do crazy things. And so when I was working with Indian artists, I realized that the way they sing, a lot of them are pitch perfect and they can express and they can emote and stuff like that. And when you work with them, you realize that, oh, okay, things get done faster and you can reach your creative objectives even faster. Oh, okay. But when I came back to Singapore, what I realized is Singaporean artists have got the heart of an independent artist. Yeah, okay. And that's our strength. Okay. We Singaporeans, we have the heart of Indie (Independent). We have the heart of an Indie artist because I mean, a lot of us are Indie artists at the end of the day, we have to fend for ourselves to figure things out ourselves. We don't have a major industry to kind of assimilate into all the major industries around us. Yes. You know, the world is our hinterland. So we have the responsibility to, figure it out. Yeah. That makes us very independent too. And of course, we understand that Singaporeans, when it comes to music and art, it's not like people are going to "ra-ra" around you, and support you. It's a very lonely journey. Yeah. So the Singaporean artist has more grit in that sense. Okay. I think like the Singaporean artist has more grit. And also they have the heart of an independent artist and the process is a lot more... because there is no commercial engine to cater to. Right. Okay. There's a lot more room for play, but how much we tap into this room, that's a question. Some of us do tap into that potential. Hey, you know what? I don't, because in India, it's like, it's a hit or a flop. That's it. Simple. Simple. Just like NDP songs. So no grey area NDP - (National Day Parade) . Ruthless. Yeah. But in Singapore, you could... you have time to think about things and say, this is my expression. I don't care what people think, but I'm just going to put it out there. And that is like a slight advantage that I felt when I came back to Singapore. So now I've got both the advantages because I shuttle. So I've got a bit of that and a bit of this. And I do believe that, us having a very small industry, or we could call it a scene. Which is growing. It's nascent, but it's growing for sure. Yeah. Whatever that is representative of the past need not be something that represents us in the future. Okay. Okay. And that's why we talk about leaders coming in and changing the space. Right. So that the future of the industry can be a little bit different from what we're seeing right now. Right. If we ask each other, we will all agree that, yeah, probably we could do a little bit more to weave in our culture, our roots, our heritage, our identity into our music. But we can only do it as much as the practical, limitations allow us to do, right? Definitely. Yeah. But what if there are spaces for us to do? That's when NDP comes in. It's a very, it's a very, meaningful event. And that event is used as an opportunity to galvanize Singaporeans to bring us together. In fact, me as a Singaporean who shuttles now and used to be based in Chennai, NDP meant something to me. Okay. I miss home and I turn on and I can watch it and I can check out the song and I feel like, okay, I'm in some way there. I do weird things like I bring Lee Kuan Yew's books with me. Fella big fan. This guy, of course, lobbying to be future MP (Member of Parliament). Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Confirm. Why stop with MP when you can be the president. Hey! Let's go! Anyway, so coming back to that point, I'm thinking that to answer Don's question also, cultural differences. There are a lot of cultural differences and you don't want to be less Singaporean because that makes you comfortable. Yeah. Being Singaporean is my comfort at the end of the day. It's part of my identity. But what it means to me is very different to what it means to someone else. For someone else, it could just be food. Yeah. But to me, it's something else. You know, it's the culmination of everything. The fact that I'm Singaporean and because I was born in Singapore, I got access to reading Lao Tzu. Reading... Confucian philosophy. Yeah. He said Lao Tzu or Lao Fu Tzu? Lao Tzu, Lao Tzu. Lao Fu Tzu also but... Lao Fu Tzu, what a great comic. Alright, bro. And then I'll take the opportunity to explore Batik because my grandmother wore it. She's Malay. Okay. And then I'm born in an Indian-Muslim family. So there is me understanding my Indian side, learning Indian classical music, but I'm also Muslim. Okay. So I also learn like Arabic, Maqam and things like that. Okay. This is only possible because I'm born here. Right. You take me and you put me in Tamil Nadu, this is not going to happen. This mix is not going to happen. Okay. And that's the same for all of us. And I think for you, the awareness of that happens or at least I think it probably is more pronounced. Yeah. Because you went away. True. And then the minute you came back, you could really tell the difference. Yes. Because then you'll be able to kind of uniquely look around and kind of go, this is.... Yeah. Because when you are put in another country, it's like the umbilical cord is cut off. Yes. And you're seeking the source again, you see, which is the place that you were from. And I guess it's... it'll be the same for a lot of artists, you know, a place where you're really comfortable. Your loved ones are at the place that made you who you are, basically. And I started thinking about that. And that's why NDP songs are seen as important, right? Because they can bring people together. Yeah. As at least let's have something in common. And one of the things is NDP songs apart from food and stuff like that. Yes. But do you think it's important? NDP songs? I think NDP songs sort of will be a timestamp for... correct me if I'm wrong, right? But I always kind of like felt like the NDP song(s) should be a timestamp for kids more than anything else. And this is my theory, right? Because most of the time people will argue and kind of go, well, will a 3 year old like it or will a 99 year old like it? They want everyone to like the song. But I kind of feel like at any given time, if I were to speak to anyone, if someone comes up to me and goes, I know recently there was a reporter that sort of like interviewed me during NDP season. And then, they told me, I think they opened up with my favorite song is Taufik and Rui En's song Reach Out For The... Reach Out For The Skies. Then I looked at him and I went, are you in your late twenties? And then he goes, yes, and I go, you probably were 13 year old or 10 years old or like around that time, because that's the period like for me, right? So my NDP song is, I'm old AF!, right? You don't look it. You don't look it. Okay, it's a good thing. It's a good thing. I need to be, I need to be with you guys more. You know, there's a lot of reassurance. Yeah, continue doing music. Yeah, yeah. Keeps you young. All right. Yeah, that's what it is. And eat whatever you're eating for lunch, just keep eating that. Yes. Wow. Okay. All right. Just, just, just keep them coming guys. Yeah. Thank you very much. But I remember, specifically stand up for Singapore because my dad had, owned a sort of like a semi, semi pro home studio, with Jeremy Monteiro. Hey. Yeah. During, during the 80s. Shout out, shout out. And Jeremy was the one that arranged Stand up for Singapore. Right. So I remember as a kid, just kind of like walking around, I used to go hang out with the guy who was the engineer. and, I remember sitting down and then experiencing like singer after singer coming in to make that gang (group) vocals for stand up for Singapore and all that. And not understanding what it was, I think I was probably Primary 3 or Primary 4 at that time. And then like months later in school, when the song played, I went, oh, that was a song that was being recorded. At my dad's home studio at that point. Right. So, I kind of always gravitate towards stand up for Singapore. Even when I grew up as my defacto NDP song. Right. So I think everyone has that. I mean, with the exception of "Home", right? You know, because, that's always the backhanded compliment. No, I really like your NDP song, but it's not "Home". Yes. Right. You know, so yeah, yeah. So, I mean, with the exception of home, thank you very much Dick Lee. Thank you. So I kind of feel like, if you.. and this is not like, oh, I'm purposely targeting the kids, but it's something where you need to, you need to find a way to reach out, to the young. And that sort of like, any song, like say "The Road Ahead", 15 years from now, you will see the kid in their twenties kind of going, ah, you know, that's the best NDP song ever. It's because they were at that, at that point, that was the song that resonated with them, you see. You know what I mean? And with NDP season, the kid comes home, tells the parent, Hey, I just heard the latest NDP song. I want to watch it again on YouTube. They watch, they force the parents to watch. The grandfather will bring the kid to watch NDP. The adults experience NDP through the kids. Yes. Right. And for them is, you know, you're up and I get so many messages that went, Oh, my kids are really obsessed with your song. They're really, you know...and well done. Right. And so for them, they see it as a success through the eyes of the kids, as if the kids are dancing and having a good time, they see it, you know, so for me, I think NDP is important in propelling, the youth, and because people in their, I guess people who are like 30 and above, they either, you get to a point where you either love your country or you're too, cynical to actually care. Right. Only the extremes. Yeah, exactly.-Nothing in between - Right?. Yeah. So, I think NDP is important really for the young generation. I agree. And I do believe that it's the thing of the fast food chains where when the children like it, everybody, the whole family ends up in a particular restaurant. Yeah. And kids are so, seeking new things. You're seeking new adventures through sounds and all that. And they are definitely the population that you need to hit for it to make complete sense. Exactly. Also teenagers, because, adults are looking at teenagers. What are they listening to? I want to listen to that person too. You know, listen to K-pop. Let me check out some K-pop and other kind of thing. Yeah. You know what? Yeah. It's always the adults that kind of go, well, my kid likes this and I started (listening)... actually not bad. Not bad. Yeah. Not bad. These fellows. The tune is good. Yeah. So we can't deny the fact that young people have a very, strong influence on what becomes a hit and what is not a hit. Especially also because, it's now tied to social media and streaming platforms and something does well there. It's technically considered a hit as opposed to the older days where there's TV and radio and it's needs more airplay to consider something a hit. Yeah. And social media is permeated by young people too. Oh yeah. So the influence has become more absolute on pop culture and the NDP song is expected to assimilate into the pop culture and become something popular so that everyone will like it. That's the huge responsibility we have. And both of you have done that with your songs, of course. But what is the challenge that you face when it comes to reaching out to the older generation? Because they are also Singaporeans. They also need to celebrate. What about those who do not, come on that bandwagon and they feel like a certain repulsion towards a song, not necessarily your songs, but based on your observations of other songs? I think for me, I can probably look at it. Are you going to say go *love* yourself. What am I? Elon Musk? Come on.*Exclaims* You look a little bit like Elon. Does he look like Elon a little bit? A little bit. Yeah, that's a trick shot. Well my bank account doesn't reflect that. So, you know, whatever it is. He doesn't have rockets. Yeah. I could look like him, but I don't care. My bank account is a tiny fraction of his. He's going to some stuff too. Yeah. Is he? I hope you feel like a certain amount of camaraderie right now. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. Go on, tell us. Yeah. I think for me, I can look at it from a slightly more wider horizon only because, apart from writing the songs, I was a music director as well for the other (NDPs). So for me, I always kind of look at it as like, well, if they watch the show, there'll be parts of it that will resonate with them. It doesn't necessarily have to be the new song because it's really difficult. I mean, imagine every year with a whole tapestry of so many songs already, but you're trying to introduce a new song every year. And in two months, make sure everyone knows how to sing it. Right. So that's really difficult. And I think, that pressure, especially on older folks is really difficult because you know, when was the last time, you... I try to get my dad to listen to anything. My dad's like,*mumbles*"Back in my day" Yeah. This becomes even more of a Herculean task because, we spoke about the older songs and having a sense of nostalgia when the kid grows up. Yes. But it's still not a fair comparison when you compare the older songs to the new songs. First thing is because of what you just said, which is (there are) too many songs. Yes. Yeah. And as it, when it's first 1, 2, 3, great. Yeah. When it's 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, you know. Yeah. And we are coming like what, 60 years old, we're going to be 60 soon. Yeah. We have that many songs. It's kind of crazy because how do you process all these songs and all this information? And it's the same case for everything. You remember who's the first American Idol? You don't know who was probably like, towards the end who it was et cetera. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So. Right on. There is this, advantage that the older songs have just by being old, there's a certain nostalgic quality to it and emotional attachment to it. Plus it's repetition, right? You know, repetition because they have more years to establish. And let's not forget the institutional efforts to push these songs in the early days, to create a Singaporean identity, which, which is not happening right now to that degree. It's sung in schools to a certain degree, but we used to have songbooks, competitions, you know, it used to be proliferated in many, many, many areas. Like I remember, being on a show where I spoke to the person who was in charge of a particular parade and they went to through great pains to ensure that people were singing the song. Wow. Okay. They went through great pains, social community efforts. And even on the day they ensured that, the camera angles are marked in a way where they only capture people who are singing the song to make the others who are not singing feel like, "Oh, I don't know the song. I better learn it". You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. So, these efforts were institutional and they were planned. They were very organized. We don't have that right now. He's just like, boom, let's see what happens. Yes. But then I think maybe that's.. maybe it's something that they can't do as well. Because I remember, you know,of being of a different generation, you can actually sort of like, okay, force is a terrible word to use, but, you're almost force feeding someone and kind of go, you have to learn this song. Yes. Listen to it now. Even if you listen to the early NDP songs, everything is, if you look at it, everything is telling you what to do. You have to stand up for Singapore. Reach out for your fellow man. You have... You know... You gotta take a stand. You gotta, there's a lot of that, right? Whereas, the later NDP songs reflect the times, right? It's really more introducing the idea, and then, And giving the responsibility to the individual. Exactly. Telling them what you should do anymore. Exactly. Yeah. So, that's sort of like, but that is not very advantageous to get everyone to sing together. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, the point is the songs become, a reflection of the times, as you say, and they become more individualistic, but as something becomes more individualistic, it becomes a lot more challenging to bring everyone together and get them to sing together. And these are inherent challenges, NDP songwriters of the day, they have, and they have to succumb, they can't succumb to that. Have to surmount it and, and go past it. And that's a, that's a huge thing to do. And of course there are other challenges, right? Which is you have to first please the committee, you have to process the information. Let's talk about that right now. Yeah. So Don, I'll give you a break. I'll go to Evan first. While you process that. So, Evan, you're given the brief and, you're told about what's the theme for the year. Yeah. And how did you start, especially like we're curious to know about "The Road Ahead" first, because it's such a huge hit, I was part of the song. And, it was something that, everyone was singing and everyone, like, we've heard a lot of very refreshing comments about that. What was your process for the song? I think, first and foremost, I didn't approach it just like an NDP song. It just needed to be a song. Cause I think, over the years, because I was helping out Dr. Sydney Tan with some of the other NDP productions from 2018 to then that year was 2021. I took a lot of learnings from it, you know, and it, the main point being, I think it's best, especially for this generation to not pander. They can smell the bull sh*t. Yes. And it's good to be just as genuine as you can, as real as you can. And I'm just, I was just going to write the song as accurately as genuine as I could with my co-writer (LinYing). So I think I approached it just as writing "A" song. Yeah. And but of course that being said, that was a hell lot of research we were talking about, like, which you can delve deep into, which you also go back to the older generation thing and a little bit..., stuff like, um, and went through the whole decades worth of material, like 50 years of material we're talking about. Like, so like I broke down stuff like, which is very interesting because like culturally in each one of the different races approached the pentatonic scale differently. Yeah. Like home uses a lot of sus (suspended) chords. which of course a lot of the subsequent years. But home uses a lot of sus chords because Sydney was the one that arranged it. And Sydney really, comes from the school of, sorry that eludes me who was the... David Foster, like that, that school (of thought), which was a fine musicianship and music knowledge. Right. And never play a triad. Right. No. No No... So breaking down all of that and then trying to, um, It took like, almost a month of just, understanding the theory of it, but then not being conscious of it and then writing the song. So I think, um, to me, that was, I think what made it work because I think that from a pop perspective, we, I knew where to give the hook when we needed it. But I think after digesting everything that I thought what made it Singapore and what made it NDP, I then unconsciously applied it to the work. So I think that that was what I tried to do. And of course then managing the committee by, of course, I admittedly, I'll admit this year that I self post rationalized my decisions after so that they can.. then they can approve, um, made it a lot more easier. Because when you're writing a song, it's a very emotional experience. It is. But later you're trying to intellectualize the whole emotional experience and that is very difficult. That's also what we're doing here to a certain degree. You know, we're talking about Singapore's sound. If it happens organically, it happens, right? But to talk about it and then go into the studio and bring things together, suddenly it feels a lot more "Ma Fan" (troublesome) Now we'll come back to Don, So you've written 3 songs."Tomorrow is here today", "Stronger Together","Shine Your Light", I love the tracks. What is your process? And you see, it's something interesting, right? Because you wrote 3 times and that was a little bit of a gap between (20)16 and (20)22. How did Don, the artist and the human being change in this time? And these were these changes reflected when you're writing these songs. Wow. Was Diablo 4 a big motivating factor? Diablo 4 was released last year. Oh, last year. Evan.... Oh crap. None of the songs. You got to know your games. If you want to quote games. Okay. No, that's an excellent question. Right. Excellent question. Um I remember, I came from the same school as you like through, Sydney, I think my first time assisting him was I think 2009. I literally came in to program some drums for him. Like that was the first, you know, I was like, "What are you doing?" So this is "National Day Parade". I'm like, "It all gets done in a studio?". I didn't know. I thought people, you know... so that was the process. Absolute virgin at that point. Yeah. Yeah. And then year after year he will say, do you want to take this? You want to do this? You want to program some strings for me? You want to do this? You know, so there was bits and pieces and then he would explain. He's very generous. He would explain... Explain. And I think, when it came to, I think the end of 2015, I think he had wanted to take a break. And they asked him if he wanted to be the music director for 2016. and then he had said, no, I think Don's ready for it. So I... you know, I was thrown into a deep end. but because he said, I think because he suggested that I was ready, I thought I could do it. but I came in with, I wasn't very young then, but young enough to kind of like have that sort of mentality was, well, you know what? F everything else I want to do my way, I'm going to make it good. Cause a lot of songs are terrible, you know, like it's that sort of like, you know and I remember, I made the process a lot about myself, which was a very big difference after you have a time jump of a few years. Then you realize, Oh, okay. So this experience is really, not about you, even though you are the song writer, but you really are the vessel in which, okay. You really are writing sort of like a happy birthday song. That's all right. For the nation. So I think, that was the different approach mentally, but then I remember the brief I was given for 2016 was we want something completely different, because 2015 was SG 50. For SG 51, we want forward thinking sort of thing. And so like, I was sort of like speaking with the Creative Director, Beatrice at the time. I... We were going back and forth and I said, well if they want the, if they want something in the future, I said, but what if the future is already here today?"Tomorrow's Here Today!". I can go straight, right. You know, and it was really funny because a lot of I always... I think... I'm not sure what your processes are, but, for me, I almost write it because, you know, we can write non-linearly these days, right? You don't have to start with, wow, what's the intro of the song? All right. What is this? So I always write backwards in a sense that I know if for me, it works when I know where I want to go. So say, for example, if I want to go to Orchard road and I know that's my destination, then I will be able to plan my destination there. So for me, I end up with like the hook of the song first, either the chorus or like whatever the callback, The sort of... Millenial Whoops and stuff, right. And then I have that and then I kind of go, okay, then, something needs to happen to get you here. Oh, so what would the pre-chorus be? What would be there? and it's always sort of like the lead up the transitions and all that. And I think the song very quickly wrote itself, you know, whereas for, I think, "Stronger Together", I think that was a very huge time jump in a sense that I think during COVID.. Now this is some serious sh*t guys. So, right. No, so during COVID, I mean, us as musicians, we lost every single job, you know, and I think I had this conversation with you before, like at some point very early in 2020, it felt like it was only happening to me because most of my friends are not musicians, right? So, I remember very, very quickly, I was losing a lot of jobs, commercial jobs, composing jobs and all that, because a lot of people were going, a lot of people are getting infected. I think we're going to pull out, we're probably not going to have this event. We're not going to have this. So then it felt like it was happening to me. Whereas my other friends was like, "Oh, I can't work in a company anymore. So I stay at home. So every day I just go play tennis and all that".. for that very short period. So, and I remember at that point, just looking at myself thinking, Oh, if I don't do this and I'm not sure how, when was, when will be the next time I do another music job. So if I'm not this, then what am I? Right? Because up to that point, I was like, you know what? I'm a music composer. I'm started to drink my own Kool-Aid, right? And kind of go, ah, you know, I'm important. Right. You know, which I absolutely wasn't. And then of course, we were deemed non-essential. Yeah. Right. And I was like, Oh my God. Okay. So even now everybody thinks I'm, you know, I would get so..... - You're already going through shit. Yeah. Yeah. You see the papers. Yeah. So, but that period, then I remember taking like just odd jobs, right? Just to get out of the house, right? I was helping my friends at their restaurants and all that. And, and just the generosity of all these, people that were just really very nice to people. I just remember people were sending food to each other and all that. So I think that experience taught me two things, right? That, that the human spirit was great. Uh, that if push comes to shove, we really are a bunch of like... great people. Right. And then at the same time, what taught me was, I'm not what I do, I am who I am and I'm the sum of the people that are around me and I am the sum of the people that love me. Then I realized, okay, then all, all I needed to be was a good human being. Try my best. That's all right. And then heading to getting the job again for a Stronger Together. I remember just kind of like, having a talk and then saying, okay, we want to, we want a song that leads us out of COVID-19. We're not completely out yet, but if they see 2020, 2021, 2022 as like a three trilogy of (sorts), and then, you know and rightfully so on the back of this guy's song, My God!, you can see the committee was like, okay. "So last year's song was really popular ah?". I know. I'm sorry. "No pressure ah Don" know. I'm like - He did what Dick (Lee) did. You know, like, you know "What?"...but really was a perfect storm, right? That year your song and all that. Cause I mean, my involvement was I had to remix the song. Oh, yeah, he did. - It was really cool- So, even before it was.. - yeah really cool I like that version. Thank you very much, thank you thank you So but, what was really funny was I got the stems way before it was released, right? And then I was remixing it. And then I think by the third day or something like that, I was putting some finishing touches and I remember the chorus was just resonating and all that. And of course I got the files with no names, but the minute I heard you, I could tell it was you, right? But the rest, I was like, okay, this sounds like Linying. And then after that, it was like, sounds a bit like Sezairi. I remember, but about what I felt was it was such a perfect storm, right? Like the video came out.. Excellent video, right? And then it was that wave of like, Oh, this is a great song. This is a great song. We get it's a great song. And Tiktok happened. Oh my God, guys, you know, so that if anything at all, as a blueprint for success of a song that was the blueprint, which was... but then"Forever Now", you know, everybody will go... You know but it's a good thing, you know, if we start a new movement of like, "Well... is it The Road Ahead?" Right. As opposed to "Is it Home?" Right? So, so congratulations. But I have to, that further reinforces Don's idea as well, that the youth has such a powerful, powerful polling factor to it. What makes it cool, man. And also riding on to what you said earlier, like, I think we all know it, but our viewership don't know, like the amount of work you have to prep and anticipate what the future is for the song is crazy. Cause you start the song, almost a year ahead, right? Yeah. So first demo out in, November. Yeah. So the process to anticipate what's going to happen in Singapore in almost 6, 9 months, it's a psychic of sorts. Yeah. You kind of have to be kind of in a psychic or prophet of sorts, right? You have to play a very careful guessing game. What will be your approach? And what is that one kind of fusion that you would approach that you would do to kind of execute the Singapore sound in your style? What's that one experiment that you would do? I think, let me answer your two parts. The first thing is I really resonated with your soundtrack part. Like if I could, and if I would, if that's possible for me, the soundtrack, soundtrack part, let me share a little bit of why, because all the film scorers I know, right, the best part is they don't... They don't really put their, they put their egos out the door when it comes to writing because they, all they do is to serve the narrative of the film.- Exactly Yeah. And then actually results in beautiful songs because all they do is they check the ego out the door and they just serve the narrative, the story, not even the film, the narrative story, the story. And that comes out really genuine. And a lot of times it's just, I'm just going to do what's best for the scene. What's best for the moment, what's best for the mood. And I think a lot of these film scorers, or at least people I look up to right, the usual... you know, John Williams, Ludwig (Göransson) and so on. I think they know how to tap into that and they catch, as the young ones call it, they catch a"vibe" very well. And I think to me, if I can tap into that moment, that psyche where I'm not too, I mean, I would openly admit there's still even at this age, there's still certain amount of narcissism or insecurity that's still kind of laced into the way we are. Someone once said that "All artists are insecure and we're all narcissists". So I would love that. Like to me, that resonated with me a lot. And I think that's one of the common threads I see in the film scorers. I admire.. What I do is for me, I would do, I would love the hybrid thing. Cause I think for me, a lot of the interesting things, um, I think for me, cause I am, I've always been quite overseas, meaning, you know, I studied in Hong Kong for many years, 5, 6, years in the States for 4. Of course I shuttle back and forth in the country. It took me a while to learn back Singlish properly. Uh, it's..., I've been rediscovering.. because of National Day, and also small part thanks to Syd (Dr Sydney Tan) to rediscover my culture, my harmonic audible history. While doing so made me realize I could incorporate a lot of these kinds of things into my compositions. And like you said, actually we do need to study this really well because I realize a lot of the difficulties back into one of the first few things we talk about, it's quite difficult to kind of just throw on a Tabla or like a Kompang and work, because you do not understand the harmonic or the textural or the historical context of it. And that approach and rediscovering that rediscovering myself, my history, really helped me to be a better human.., composer and a human being. So to me, that's my approach so far. It's like sometimes it's damn stupid feel very like face value. Like for example, the MRT track, I just kind of(MRT - Mass Rapid Transit) cut it out and put in a hi-hat. It could be that. Or sometimes it could be a Kompang and understand the groove of it. It's not a full 16, it's not swing. How can I incorporate that into a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) where it's so rigid and robotic, that kind of thing. So to me, that is where my head is at now and where it's been the most exciting for me. That's like, OOHHH,Like I know there are moments when it hits, it's like damn, that's cool, that's super cool. I mean, thinking about it in a way where you use sounds and incorporate them into like make them into percussive sounds, the sounds that we Singaporeans identify with most, including that into the songs that could also constitute to a version of the Singapore sound. It's more soundscape based, but it's there, it's, it's a sort of a representation of the Singapore sound. It could be your take of the Singapore sound. Yeah. And that's one great way to look at it. And I resonate with the soundtrack approach too, also because the soundtrack approach requires one to become very introspective. Sort of you kind of become a shaman at that point where you have to kind of really let your body absorb all these things that you're listening. And because when we listen to a particular kind of music, we have a certain idea, or this is Armenian, this is Chinese, this is Indian. We need to break that. When you break that, that needs to become ours. Yeah. It cannot be, oh this is a Chinese instrument. It has to be the Erhu. That means I need to be that intimate with it. Yeah. Just like people, right? Like you say, you know someone, but do you really know someone? That's the question. Yeah. So I feel like when we spend more time with these instruments and we kind of acquaint ourselves better, whatever that we create. And when we incorporate, it'll be more authentic and then we can avoid what Don just said, right? Which is like just throwing in a loop there and saying that okay I've achieved this. That kind of thing. I mean, I think you rather don't do it than doing it that way. What do you think about that? Yeah definitely and I mean, the whole idea of the soundtrack approach is, it is a very beautiful thing because you know, when you... when everyone works together to serve the narrative and, and whatever, if it's the lyric, if it's the melody. And the thing is, I think when you put everyone in the room and, because I remember even working with a Sydney years ago, I remember he was sort of like, he had to do some Lion dance intro, I think for the SEA games or something.(SEA - South East Asian) And then he got the SEA game. He got the lion dance troop in and then to explain, you know, why he played it this way. And I remember I sat down and I went, that's a great process, you know, is first of all understanding. But what I like to do, apart from that as well, is to understand that that's the process that you need to understand how it works. Of course, whoever's playing it, the musician will be an expert at what he does, you know, and I think what I'm good at is, is kind of like taking a gist of it and putting it all together thematically. But at the same time, understanding that your take on this, the limitation that you have actually might actually lend it to get to have a unique sound. Right. It's like how,when, when, when you hear a lot of the early electronic music, you know, whether it was jungle or it was like a trip hop and a lot, you know, because a lot of these people in like Bristol, UK, were trying to emulate the sound of hip hop and stuff, and then, create a sub genre on its own. Yeah, because they were just trying to sound like, you know, making the mistakes and knowing the limitations of your, whatever it is, your understanding of it, but then that in itself, you open up yourself to, creation and using limitation also as a device,so for me, I'm never afraid to be really the dumbest guy in the room. I'd be like, tell me about this instrument. Why did you play it like that? Oh my God, you know, yeah. Yeah. So it was, I think when I worked with Nadi Singapura and Damaru. I've never heard some of the instruments before, but then, you know, they were like, oh, wait till you... and the minute I approach it like with child like wonder of like, Oh my God, what is this? I've never heard this before. Can you play this for me? And then he goes, wait till you hear this one. Then he started to take out different ones and then he started playing and then, you know, so to me, it's like a kid at a candy store, but then it's, it's sort of like, okay, so that's my limited knowledge. They've explained it to me as much as they can. I'm obviously this dumb dude that cannot absorb that, but how do I absorb bits and pieces and kind of go, how do I make this work together? I think that in it, there's artistry in itself that is also working with limitations, but also respectful at the same time, you know. So Don, you would employ the approach of"Play" to the whole thing. You'd be curious and you're going to play. You're going to bring things in. And you do believe that maybe not learning so much about the instrument can result in happy accidents and it can result in very interesting outcomes as long as you're sincere to the process. Yeah. And if you don't make the process fun for yourself, then it's just, like if you don't make the process fun or collaborations fun, then it becomes like you're just sitting down at the door by yourself, throwing in loops again, right? You know what I mean? Like, like you're going back to certain things where you just kind of go, okay, it's going to end up sounding the same anyway. Right. So my key takeaway from, from the conversation with you about how to, how you would achieve, you know, the Singapore sound is number one, you would be very curious and you'll be, you'll be playing a lot with the instruments that are coming in. You'll keep it very adventurous. And at the same time, you would opt for live (instruments). Yeah. As opposed to using loops and samples. Yeah. You bring in live instrumentals and jam with them and jam it out with them. Because everybody's got that same loops and samples, right? If you've got a subscription to Splice (Sample Library) or like whatever, right? You know, everyone's got that. Yeah. You know, everyone's got that same pool of stuff. But if you're able to you know, record and manipulate your own stuff, then you have stuff that, honestly, other people don't have, you know. And Evan, you would resort to using sounds that Singaporeans are familiar with to kind of incorporate into a song. Yeah. And then sort of, have your take on the Singapore sound. Yeah. I think both melodic and textural (sounds) are super, at least during today's time, it's a lot more a priority as compared to the past. So I think it's something to kind of digest and, you know, as people who are writing, like Don said, we're writing songs that are timestamps of our current times, our history. I think it's good to kind of just be aware of that and kind of lean in towards that side to me. And that combined with the soundtrack approach might result in some magic. Yeah. When you come to produce a track. Yeah. Tiny bits of percussive sounds from Hokkien (Chinese Dialect) . The Hokkien. There we go. There we go. You heard it first. That's cool. Yeah. The Singaporean sound is Hokkien swearing. Hokkien swearing and throw an Arpeggiator on it. You make it work together. Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you think NDP songs could steer away in certain years from a theme to a person? Yeah, it should. I think it's one of those things where like, I think it's very dangerous for, because it's very easy for people to want to replicate success. Yes. Like when they say,"Oh, The Road Ahead was great. We should write something like that." That sounds like that. But why do we need to write another thing that sounds like that? It already is there, right? And the thing with NDP songs is we can repeat it in the shows and all that. Fireworks display, you know, I'll take a bit of (The) Road ahead, put it inside, boom, you see, everyone's happy, right? But I don't need to write another song. Exactly. But like you said, it could be about a person. It could be whatever, right? You know, a tribute to a mother, a tribute to a father or like anything. I think that in itself shows growth as people that can understand that, you know what, anything about Singapore, it doesn't have to be, you know, the same checkbox of like, for sure. I agree. And I don't mean to cut you off. And I totally agree. Just adding on to his point, because if we were to look back at the history of Singapore songs, Home was actually quite controversial when it first came out. Yeah, they were like,"What? How can we have a ballad?" And it starts in a sort of negative point, whenever I'm feeling low. Yeah, exactly. Oh it's in a NDP song, you can't say low. So that sort of opened up the doors. But then there in itself is sort of like a double-edged sword, because that opened up the doors. And for many years after that, we had the, "Well, we need to have a ballad." We need to have hope. How can we be like,"Can this thing make you cry?" They kind of go,"Yeah, but crying is a result of an emotion." And emotions come in various different forms. Sometimes you're crying because you're happy. It doesn't mean you're crying because you're sad or whatever. But so I think the common denominator needs to be there, in which you're expressing whatever it is about the country. But it does not always have to have the same rules. Have to have these kind of chords, have to have this, then it's NDP. Talking about rules, because Home was a rule breaker. And there are some songs which are rule breakers and people appreciate it. So I guess the formula is to have no formula and to be as authentic and sincere to the process as much as possible. The one trap that we all fall into is when we listen to one song and then all the next song should be like this song. But you know, history always tells us that Elvis was nothing like Michael Jackson. Usher is nothing like Michael Jackson. Exactly. Everybody was very different. Who was popular? Same goes to like, Steve Jobs was nothing like Bill Gates. And Elon Musk is nothing like Steve Jobs. So it's always authenticity that gets awarded in creative industries and industries where you want to create a breakthrough. So I think it's extremely important for that. The Road Ahead happened because you didn't want to replicate anything that... you wanted to be as authentic as possible. Stronger Together, you know, turned out the way it turned out because he didn't want to, you know, follow that. Because I wrote it when I was showering. So it cannot be replicated. Yeah, it cannot be because the process is pure, you know, as clean as it can be. Exactly. A nice shower gel and I was all lathered up, you know, and no one can write a song like that. You know, unless they jump in the shower with me too. Now I'm thinking about the hook line. Shower together... That's just me with the loofah Just get, this part at the back. Every process changes according to the person... and mine with Singai Naadu as well. You know, different things when I came into it, I'm not writing an NDP song. I'm writing a song for the nation, for the people. And I'm also trying to cater to a particular need of the hour. So I think we have to respect these variations that happen every year, and perhaps it might be a good idea to think in that sense where instead of writing for a theme, you know, an artist writes it and their perspective and their take on the nation. I think, you know, maybe there should even be, if you want to make it even more authentic, honestly speaking, do it like how you did it, just write a song. Just write a song, but the song resonates with whoever was maybe or whoever's creatively in charge that year and then come go, let's adopt, which is what they did with Home. Home wasn't commissioned for NDP. It wasn't. Yeah. But you know what I mean? Like you have something that resonates. You kind of go, we will adopt this as the theme this year. And it could also be songs that are existing in the existing repertoire that you take from artists, Singaporean artists, any feature. Exactly. Because already in itself, you have a tapestry of like songs that are ready to go. And it's just the sort of, we just have to attach the meaning to it, you know, because like I said, once we have the right song for the right year, you know. Well, I guess this conversation naturally should lead to a season two where we bring in folks from MINDEF (Ministry of Defense of Singapore) and we extend the conversation. Oh, yeah. So to summarize the key points, both of you, you know, you guys contributed really in ways that I didn't imagine to this conversation. We spoke about the NDP sound, the NDP song(s), and also the Singapore sound within this framework. It was very insightful. And I am sure that, you know, people are watching those who are interested to do something with the musical tapestry that we have in Singapore, the multicultural musical tapestry we have in Singapore. I'm sure Evan's approach would be very helpful. It's a very soundscape approach, but it's got a lot of heart in it. And it also makes you feel that you're home when you listen to a track like that. And Don's approach was a lot of play, a lot of curiosity and recording a lot of live instruments. I just hope that we have more platforms to do these things, not just NDP and Chingay, but you know, there could be more platforms where we musicians to come together, could come together and jam these things out and do it for fun. Yeah. Not for a particular cause. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I just look forward to those kinds of things to happen. Probably at the end of this, you know, people who are listening to it and checking it out would help us in creating those platforms for us to actually play. Yeah. Because the operative word for music is"Play". Yeah. And writing in the shower. Yeah. Yeah. Writing in the shower with the loofah scrubbing your back. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. Thanks for having us, bro. Thanks for having us.