The Pulpit Doesn't Prepare You for the Pillow Talk - Pastor Quentin Mumphrey: PIP Season 2 Ep.9

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On the next episode of Pressed into Purpose.
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We made an industry of it too.
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Because people started selling these Purity Rings.
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Everybody's writing a book about it.
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That's true.
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That's true.
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You know what I'm saying?
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You know, you had youth ministries, you know, hold the whole services, that's where White, and you know.
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I remember, yeah.
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And then I remember people know I'm a virgin in Christ.
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I never went to it, but I remember it.
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You know, you were I'm a virgin in Christ.
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My body count 742, but I'm a virgin in Christ.
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You know, it's like, you know, you know.
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I'm gonna reset.
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Let me reset.
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You know what I'm saying?
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I am pure today.
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I was a whole yesterday, but I'm pure today.
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And the message is because you reset, now you deserve a husband or wife.
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Hello and welcome to another episode of Pressed into Purpose.
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I am your host, Valeria Wright, and as you know by now, season two is all about marriage.
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We are speaking to guests in various stages of marriage.
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Today, we are joined by a man who lives at the intersection of faith, business, and community transformation.
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Quentin Mumphrey is the founder and senior pastor of New Hope Covenant Church, where he's creating what he calls a classic experience in a modern environment.
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But that's just one dimension of his work.
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As CEO of Cairo Strategies, Quentin brings over 20 years of experience helping corporations, schools, ministries, and nonprofits build sustainable impact.
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He served as vice president for a national education management organization, directed family and community engagement for Chicago Public Schools, and held executive positions in some of the world's largest urban ministries.
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He currently serves as director of partnerships for a national education company.
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Quentin is also an author who's dedicated to helping people achieve what he calls the ultimate fulfillment of life.
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Prosperity that flows from partnering with God first.
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Whether he's preaching on Sunday, consulting with Fortune 500 companies, or writing his next book, Quentin Mumphrey is committed to one mission: helping individuals and organizations make meaningful impact in the world.
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Please join me in welcoming Pastor Quentin Mumphree.
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Hello, hello.
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Thank y'all for having me.
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Hello, please.
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And welcome.
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Good to have you here on the podcast.
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Thank you for agreeing and saying yes.
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Absolutely.
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You know, we've known each other for a long time, but it's been a long time, a lot of space and time between between.
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And uh I'm just glad that uh you that you that we're all living lives that are pleasing to the Lord.
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Um you as pastor and leader and all the things and us doing all the things that we're doing.
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But today we are here to hear about your journey.
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Um and so as we as I had mentioned in the intro, we're talking about marriage this season, and we're really talking about all the different seasons of marriage.
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And it's important for me to make sure that those that are listening, they some may be married, some may be in a challenging part of their marriage, some may be in a great place in their marriage, some may be divorced, some may be widowed.
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And so I want to speak to all as many people as possible to help them wherever they are in their journey.
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So if you don't mind, I'm just gonna jump right on in.
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All right.
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And I'm gonna ask you to tell to tell us how long were you married and what uh what was what was the the great the gr the best part of that that marriage?
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Um I was only married two years, so not long.
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Uh, but I would say the best part of it, um, I have spent most of my life single.
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So I think the best part is actually coming home to a person, not just to an empty space, right?
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And so um one of the good things about marriage is you have a built-in date for things, right?
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So it's not just like figuring out, okay, you know, who's gonna go with me to this, who you know, if I just want to go to dinner.
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So that's the good thing of it.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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And um what did you learn about yourself in that two-year period?
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One of the things that I learned uh about myself, because a lot of times when we talk about marriage relationships, um the good, the bad, the ugly, we focus a lot on other people.
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Yes.
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And I think that what uh what I learned about myself uh a few things.
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One that I I needed to control what I can control and not control the things that are beyond my control.
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Uh the other thing is I learned some things about communication.
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Okay.
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That um that not to assume in communication, but to to try to over-communicate if possible at times.
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Um but also to be honest about what I'm thinking and feeling and not try to control how that's gonna land with somebody or how they'll feel about it, right?
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So um a lot of lessons about myself.
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I learned uh a level of self-awareness.
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I think that um and and not to this is not a knock on the church, but I think a lot of times we in the church growing up, we tell people to get married, but not how to get married and how to be in it, right?
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Um now I know that there are some ministries that deal with relationships more, and I see more of that now.
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Yes, yes, but you know, growing up, uh younger, you know, it was uh you you heard two messages.
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Hold on if you ain't married, right?
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Hold on, you know, just hold on.
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Well, what am I holding on to, right?
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And and it's easy for somebody to say, hold on, when you've been sleeping with somebody in bed for 30 years, right?
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Yes, yes.
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That's that's the one thing.
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And then two, hold on and then just get married, right?
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Yeah, and so um we don't tell people within that time how you prepare yourself to be married.
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I you know, I'm a believer that an omelet is only as good as the eggs that you're putting into it.
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Come on.
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And so a lot of times we don't prepare people for marriage by preparing themselves.
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Yeah, and I can say that there were some areas where I wasn't preparing myself or did not know how to prepare myself, really.
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Um and so I think that there was a lot of lessons learned about just me, my uh I learned that I could get angry, you know.
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Um look, nobody brings out that anger like uh a spouse.
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Um so I there was a lot of things that I learned.
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Yeah, that uh some of which surprised me and some which didn't.
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Gotcha.
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Okay, okay.
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That's listen, that's good stuff.
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Um did did You said some you said uh repeat that again, that some things surprised you, you said and that, and what was those surprising things that you if you don't mind sharing that?
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Yeah, so I think again, um Valeria just said that you know no one can bring out anger, you know, whether it's a relationship or marriage, right?
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The person that you're in close companionship with that part can bring out anger and certain just emotions in general.
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Uh I always, prior to that time in my life, had prided myself on being someone who's very much in control of my emotions.
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And very much, you know, I'm keep myself together and I'm composed.
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Um, right.
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And I always had prided myself on I don't let folk rattle my cage and all that stuff get to me.
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Um, that goes out the door, right?
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You know what I'm saying?
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So goes out the door, huh?
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Because you're right, you're right, they right there all the time.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, yeah, that's that stuff goes out the door.
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And I think um, you know, we learn a lot about ourselves spiritually, but we don't always learn a lot about ourselves naturally.
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I would agree.
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Right?
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The scripture says that we are spirit, soul, and body.
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And we tell folks a lot about how to get their spirit right, how to get their spirit ready to go to heaven.
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Um, and then, you know, you get health, folks in health that'll tell you how to get your body together.
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But who really speaks to the soul?
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Right?
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Your mind, your will, your emotions.
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How do you get those parts of you together?
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Because that's the part that folks are gonna really face and interact with.
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Um, and so um I think that one of the things that I learned in that season was um first I gotta be honest with myself and with God.
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Yes.
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Right?
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And then out of that flows honesty with other people.
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And if that doesn't happen, then it's not gonna be healthy.
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And before the it going out the door, as you said, season, there was nothing up to that point that ever tested you to rattle your cages until you got married.
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Not in that way, right?
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Not in that way.
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Right.
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Okay.
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See, one of the things also is um when you're in the dating, nothing tests you like a romantic relationship, right?
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So with your friends, you know, what and with guys, right?
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With guys look different from women, right?
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We don't test each other like that as men, right?
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We, you know, for the you know, unless we like playing spades or something.
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You know what I'm saying?
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But like spades, you know, but for the cages, bag is gonna rent on cages, you know what I'm saying?
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Domino's all those things.
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You know what I'm saying?
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You know, we get competitive in those things, and you know, you you gotta make sure that you know, you gotta talk about it.
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You gotta know the nature of the beast.
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Yes.
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So anyway.
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Um, but you know, for the most part, um our you know, your brothers, your friends, you know, typically you have things in common.
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You're moving in the same direction, or you you just have a certain bond, right?
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So there is not a poking and prodding, right?
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And it's challenging, right?
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And so one of the things is um, and I'm not, and what I will say this, and this is not only in marriage, but even in my dating life, um, the women in my life have challenged me and helped me see things about myself more than any other experiences or encounters in my life.
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Yeah, right?
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Yeah.
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Um because no one really knows you like the person that you're in a romantic context with.
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Yeah, because they see an objective side of you.
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So they don't, they're not just looking at past the cue, right?
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They're not looking at um, you know, the business and educational side of me.
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They're not looking at the side of me that's holding a microphone, they're not looking at the side of me that's teaching a class, they're not looking at the side of me that's making a presentation.
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Yeah um, they're looking at just the average everyday side of me that's flawed, yeah.
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Um, that has, you know, my issues and my shortcomings and my own dysfunctions, right?
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Listen, we all got them.
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We have we right, and we have to be honest about those.
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And so I think that um both marriage and other relationships have forced me to see things about myself that um so to your question, it's not that nothing ever challenged those parts of me.
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It's that there are things that are brought out in a marriage and in romantic relationships that won't come out any other way.
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And so that's what it was, is that yeah, I mean, I have friends, I have accountability, I've you know, I've had mentors and people, but nothing brings out certain things in you and about your about you and your temperament like the person that's in your life romantic.
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And uh to piggyback off of that, so you're from what I what I'm taking, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's when you before you got married and before you're in a romantic relationship, you still have a sense of protection, vulnerable, vulnerability protection.
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Yes.
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So you're not open, but once you said I do, you went all in, which therefore made yourself vulnerable.
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And then was then that made you more aware of who she was at the time when you said yes, I do, or you already knew it, but you just wasn't aware of it until you So I'm not even talking about another person, I'm talking about me, right?
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Well, no, I'm just I understand with vulnerability.
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I'll say this about vulnerability.
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One, uh, vulnerability is not something that is just a natural thing.
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It's not right.
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We run, we naturally, as human beings, we run from vulnerability.
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And I will say being in leadership my whole adult life and having been in ministry since I was very young, that doesn't lend itself to vulnerability either.
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Right?
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Because so much of our your identity is shaped by who you are to people, right?
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And you're always in a place of giving out parts of yourself in the sense of, you know, whether you're teaching, whether you're counseling, or those kind of things.
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That's not a vulnerable thing because the people who are receiving from you, um, that doesn't require vulnerability from you.
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Right?
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If I'm just up preaching or teaching, that doesn't require vulnerability because they're they're receiving something from me.
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But the vulnerability is when I need something from someone else, or you're seeing a part of me.
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You know, there I it I believe this.
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Inside every man, there is a superman in a Clark can many people, particularly in church life and in the church world, we love Superman.
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Right?
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That's the man of God, the woman of God, when they're anointed.
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They love to see Superman, right?
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When you can preach, pray, prophesy, lay hands, cast out the devil, all those kind of things.
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But Lois Lane had to deal when reckoning with Clark Kent.
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And so that's the normal side of you that is not super, that's not special.
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Um and so I think that I had for so long identified with my Superman.
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Now that I did not easily let people see my Clark Kent.
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Okay.
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So when I say I didn't do vulnerability well, what I mean is I was very good, and this is something I still fight, right?
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I've grown a lot in this area, therapy and accountability and all those things help.
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Um, but I did not naturally lend myself to vulnerability because I was very good at putting up walls.
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Um, letting people get so far or only see so much.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Because you don't know how much they can handle.
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Or how much you don't know how much they can handle, but also it may just be stuff that you just don't want folk to see, right?
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And I'm not talking about even sin.
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You know, so when you say stuff like that, and I can say that because in the church context, everything's about seeing.
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It's like, you know, oh, what kind of sin they got it?
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Everything is not about you know, I don't want you to stick me in my pajamas.
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You don't say anything that they put you right.
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Or just you know, quirks that we have, right?
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You know.
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Um, and so we don't like people to see the stuff about us that's not perfect or not always put together, right?
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Um, the fact that your breath may stink in the morning, the fact that your hair ain't together in the morning, that you know you got crust in your eye.
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Simple things like that physically, or it could be something like you know, you smack when you chew, or you snore, or you burp, or you just just I mean, just natural things, right?
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Or or you you got a person, or you get irritated irritated, or you know, someone sees you in a bad mood.
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So all of those things, right?
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When you're in ministry, church folk don't see that side of you, right?
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And so when I talk about vulnerability and how we avoid vulnerability, it becomes easy to hide just those natural parts of you that are not perfect.
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Because it's okay for people to see the cape.
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Yeah.
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It's okay for people to see Superman.
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I don't want you to see Clark Kent.
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Because here's the thing if I let you see Clark Kent, will you still respect Superman?
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And so you're protecting Superman while keeping Clark Kent away.
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Yes.
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And that's what if I may say that's what you brought into the marriage.
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That was part of it.
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Yeah, that was part of what I brought into the marriage.
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I think the other thing was um I didn't do real good with just conflict resolution interpersonally, right?
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Um and so there were times where I would shut down or build up a wall.
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And um, you know, and that's not healthy.
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It's not so um, and those were things, those were things that I had to own, right?
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Um I'm good at debating and see and see and his other.
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Everybody is not and I was raised in a house where we had discourse and debate, right?
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So for me, it's natural to do that.
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And so we go back and forth, go back.
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That don't mean I'm upset, that don't mean I'm angry.
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I'm just I'm just sharing my ideas.
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:28.880
But for somebody who didn't grow up in that type of environment or with that type, with that background, it can be jarring.
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:35.599
Yes, and it can it can seem combative when that's not what you're well see, I'm good at debating, but I'm not combative, right?
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:46.720
And so when something feels combative, um, and I'm you know better at it now, but when something will feel combative, I'm like, you know, now if it's a professional environment or something, let's be combative.
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:48.079
We can go there, you know what I'm saying?
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:55.359
Like, you know, if it's certain things, because the thing is, when I see something is that is competitive, I don't mind being combative.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:55.759
Okay.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.920
But when it's just relational only, I don't want to be combative.
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.039
And if it feels combative, I'm pulling back from that, right?
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:04.720
That's that was my mindset, right?
00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:05.200
Okay.
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:13.119
So when I say uh talk about combative, if a relationship felt combative, it was like, oh, this is a red flag.
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:14.000
It says, right?
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:21.279
When sometimes things may not be combative, it just might be passionate communication, it might be things to push through and work through.
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:21.519
Yeah.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:26.000
Whereas for me, it was like, mm-mm, this ain't good because combative means unhealthy.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:27.759
Combative means toxic, right?
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:28.079
Okay.
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:29.839
Confrontational means toxic.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:30.160
Okay.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:38.559
And so those were things that I had to work through later on that, you know, I did not know at that time in my life.
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:47.279
Um, like I said, I don't mind certain things in my workspace in my professional life or something because I like to win, right?
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:57.039
So if um, you know, if it's a co if it's a confrontational thing in a professional setting, yeah, I gotta prove my point because I got to win.
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.880
But I didn't apply that in relationships because it's not about winning.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:01.759
It's, you know.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:08.319
So again, it if if it was, if it felt tense in that way, it's like, oh, tension is bad.
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:09.359
Yes, okay.
00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:09.920
Right?
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:10.400
Okay.
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:15.200
And so again, that lended itself to putting up walls, it lends itself to withdrawing.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.039
And um, when those kind of things happen, communication falls apart.
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:20.160
True.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:22.160
Go ahead.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:25.680
Because I got more questions, and I don't think we can get past this.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.319
Well, well, I just I just want to kind of step back to something that you said a few minutes ago.
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:37.440
You said you, when you've been in ministry, you know, at a young age, so how early did you accept the call to the ministry?
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:38.480
In high school.
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:39.039
Okay.
00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:39.680
Okay.
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:46.079
So in your formative years, you learned how to You learn how to show up and perform.
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:47.200
Not perform in the sense of.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.400
I know I know what you're saying.
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:48.640
Yeah.
00:19:48.960 --> 00:20:01.839
You know, there are parts of ministry that are performative, especially when you're starting it young, meaning that um whatever you may be dealing with personally, how you feel in the moment, if you're tired or whatever, you put all that aside because you got to show up.
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:02.000
Right.
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:19.039
And by show up, it's like, you know, whether it's a teaching, preaching context, um, what whether, you know, if you're a worship leader, whatever you do, you put any, you know, if you're going through a family crisis, you put all that aside and you show up and you pour out what's in you, right?
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:19.599
Yes, yes.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:24.160
And you you do what you gotta do to move the kingdom forward.
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:24.720
Yes.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:32.480
Um, and so when that's the mindset, then there's a lot of things about life that can feel performative.
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.079
Okay.
00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:41.920
You mentioned something about that uh when it comes how you said conflict.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:48.319
When you get when in a relationship, you had conf you don't know how to do conflict resolution in relationship.
00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:54.640
And is that because you always knew how to do conflict, trying to find conflict resolution between people because you like the referee?
00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:03.519
But you didn't know how to apply what you do in a consultation amongst two people, you didn't know how to apply that to apply those skills in your relationship.
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:04.160
Right.
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:13.119
So, you know, I mean, I had done at counsel couples and things like that, and so I was good at referee in conflict, but I wasn't good at being the player, right?
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:16.880
So it's different when you're the referee in the game versus being on the court, right?
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:23.039
And so um I was good at being referee, but I wasn't good at being the player.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:31.599
And so um principles that I would apply in counseling or refereeing people, I didn't know how to apply that to me all the time.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:39.200
And so um, but that took a lot of self-reflection uh and therapy, you know, and those kind of things.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:40.480
So thank God for therapy.
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:41.279
Thank God for therapy.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.279
You know, I always say, you know, you need Jesus and therapy.
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.000
I'm a believer in the couch and the altar.
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.599
You know, a lot of times the saints say stuff like, you know, you just pray it through.
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.480
No, you you gotta pray it and talk it through.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:53.920
And get some tools.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:55.039
You have to get tools.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:59.440
And I say all the time, you know, it's interesting because I hear a lot of believers.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:31.759
speak condescendingly about therapy or say like we know it's it it's an unspiritual thing and I always apply it this way can God heal our physical bodies absolutely but do we still go to the doctor so why don't we apply that same thought when it comes to our minds and our souls and going to therapy right because we want to pray stuff through in our thinking but if you're trying to pray stuff through in your body you also go you go to the doctor while you're trying to pray it through in your body.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:32.400
That's true.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:41.599
So we need to apply that same thing when it comes to therapy pray it through in your mind but talk to the therapist go to get counseling get some then the Bible says that in the multitude of counsel there's safety.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:23:49.200
Yes and so uh but I think there's also um a pride a level of pride that comes with that right um and I think also um I had to come to grips at times with my own pride meaning that um being in ministry from a young age used to be in right all the time to be honest right um used to be in right um and you're used to people assuming you're right now that that is good that is good you you're used to people assuming that you're right because because you are reverend minister pastor people assume that a lot of times that everything that comes out of your mouth is the right thing I was raised I was raised differently I was raised to question everything so um it was like well you it don't matter what they say it what does the Bible say so I was I was raised that way but a lot of people weren't and so whatever comes out of the preacher's mouth it's like that's law and they might not ever open up the Bible for themselves to see it.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:24:33.200
So that's that's an interesting uh point that you bring up so how do you how do you reconcile with that with other with with people like not rec maybe reconcile isn't the right word but how do you balance people assuming that you're always right with your own humanity and realizing that you are flawed I think the older you get the more you realize what you don't know so some of it comes with age and maturity um I say as you get older you realize it's a lot of stuff I don't know and also you realize how much you were wrong about at certain points in your life you know it's like you know I think that you know part of maturity is not just introspection but reflection.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:25:26.880
Yes introspection I see into myself reflection I go back and look at other things you look back and be like man's kind of wrong in that situation or that's kind of wrong with what I said to them you know it's like man I shouldn't have spanked them like that instead of like you know like you know you know you started to reflect it but I shouldn't have done it right um but we didn't know better then we call for blood falling to take it you know but you know I think that part of it is maturity and just reflection um part of it is also your circle making sure that you have people in your life who can speak truth to you even when it's uncomfortable.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:54.079
Yes um and I think one of the things that I have found of value is having a wide circle of people many of whom aren't necessarily immersed in church right because they don't know to be super impressed with you and be like oh you're the man they don't know to say that right uh so I think what has helped me as I've uh and I think I've been grateful I'm grateful that I've always been bivocational in the sense that I've always had a career outside of ministry.
00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:01.440
So over the years it has helped me stay grounded because you know I'm not only in the church world.
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:56.799
Yeah right so you see a perspective outside of you know just kingdom life and the church and you're able to kind of you you're it humbles you in some ways because you also realize that and I love the church the church is the bride of Christ and I'm church boy to my core but you realize also some of the gaps and deficits that we have in the church meaning that we we have a lot of blind spots right we have a lot of things that we don't see that we uh don't understand correctly right we have a lot of ways of thinking that need to be reevaluated and re-examined absolutely um we have a lot of groupthink at times right um we have a lot of just unhealthy thinking patterns and I'm not talking about biblical stuff I'm talking about just stuff that's regular because you know we don't we don't always know how to differentiate what's biblical and what's church tradition.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:06.559
True right Jesus said that you all made the word of God of no effect by your traditions and so I think a lot of stuff that we call the Lord is really just tradition.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:30.240
Correct that we have baptized and sanctified it and made it holy and made it law yeah and so I think that over the years uh being in my career and just being exposed to different groups of people different parts of the country um and um I've been in rooms with people who I knew were a lot smarter than me.
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.319
I've been in rooms with folk who had a whole lot more money than me right people who had a lot more influence.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:28:16.960
Yeah and I think um the level of exposure you have is dependent on the rooms that you walk into and I think that um going into different rooms helped me to realize okay there's more to life than what I thought and um yeah yeah God still says this but yeah I could be wrong my maybe my perspective needed to be broad or or or or or challenged right yes and I think that rather than taking someone challenging my perspective or critiquing my my perspective rather than taking it as an attack I take it as an opportunity for growth and an opportunity to re-examine okay why am I this way?
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:30.720
Why do I think like this why do I act like this why do I do that and how much of that is good and how much of it is not it's the whole principle of whether you throw out the baby with a bath why do you keep you know the scripture says that you prove all things and hold fast to that which is good.
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:33.440
And I think that um that comes with maturity.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:38.079
You know you I I didn't understand those things at 21 and 23.
00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:40.960
Right the way that I understand them now in my 40s.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:29:21.599
Yeah um so which way I wanna go next so since you have been out of the marriage you say you were married for two years, you've been out of the marriage what have well it sa it sounds like you've continued your learning journey not only about yourself but just broadening your horizons, broadening your perspective so to to understand yourself and the world that you live in a little bit better.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:29.200
How has how how did divorce impact your ministry or did it impact your ministry?
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:40.000
It did not impact my ministry well also I I'm you know I'm I'm years removed from the divorce so it's not like it's fresh just happened yesterday.
00:29:40.480 --> 00:30:16.640
We're talking about we're talking about 12 years ago um you know 12 and a half years ago gotcha so it's not like it's um you know a year ago um also that was with earlier years of social media so you know it's not like had just 50 million pictures and all this stuff and you know people have to write it's like you know you know right you know it's like what happened to her you know it's like acting those pictures together so you know you got the social media flu.
00:30:16.880 --> 00:31:08.160
You got to talk this right you know you got the thing single you know but but that was thing though because at one point your status did say you know that but it's uh I just changed it to no status you know you just right so we ain't gonna worry about what the states think nothing the status ain't gonna say nothing so you know me you know if you know me you know if you don't ain't no business you know what I'm saying so uh you know it's funny a picture said one time he I don't know if he posted he said you know um if you got a problem with something I do call me if you don't have my number you ain't got no problem because you don't know me well you got a problem with me so so you know but that that's so I think but I'm I'm joking but there was a fear of because you know I grew up I grew up and again I don't come from a context where divorce was the norm.
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:37.279
My parents were married for 50 years when my dad went home to be with the Lord right um my mom's parents were married 40 something years when my grandfather died my dad's parents were married 64 years when my grandfather passed away so I and I have numerous people in my family I come from a very big family on both sides you know both my parents had a bunch of siblings and you know and so I have several marriages in my family on both sides where people have been married 30, 40, 50, 60 years, right?
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:50.640
And so I come from a context my own siblings right I have you know um three of my older siblings all been married over 30 years right okay and so um I don't come from a context where that was a norm.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:32:02.640
So there is there was you worry about the stigma right and and being in the church you worry about what are people gonna think right are they gonna think I was cheating or are they Because that's always the first thing people assume.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:05.279
It's like that's not the only thing that happens in America.
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:39.680
It's not and you know if you're a man they assume you either hoe or you gay right so it's like uh you know who you send pictures to right right right you know or as I said a country you like chicken or you like fish you know so it's like you know it's which side of the pit you hidden from uh so you know you change sports right you know so you know it's like there's you you have those fears in that word right like are people gonna think that you know I'm messing around or doing this or that or they're gonna question certain things.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:42.000
So you worry about the you do think about those things.
00:32:42.079 --> 00:33:03.359
And as much as we say well people think we do consider what people are going to think right yes on some level yeah absolutely and so you deal with that you deal with the feelings of the guilt and the shame right um and the shame is real especially being in ministry uh because divorce is a death but and it's also a failure of a marriage it's a death of a marriage and it's a failure of a marriage and no one wants to feel like a failure.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:15.680
Right especially in as a leader in ministry because then it's like I failed at this right I failed at the most important thing right relationship.
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:16.079
Right?
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:28.400
The most important relationship the most important thing I failed at this so am I gonna live the rest of my life as a failure and so you worry about the whole guilt, the shame, the um feelings of condemnation.
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:42.640
Yeah um and then also being in ministry you know you you know most of you most preachers are married so then it's a whole fear of you know if you're uh because you know they tell you when you're young preaching no you got to get your wife so you can get a church because then you can't get no church if you're single.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:43.039
Right?
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:48.480
That is true they're preachers who will rush to get married to get a church or things like that.
00:33:48.640 --> 00:34:16.079
And so you you worry about all those things like you know will I ever get a church if I'm not married and those kind of things or um will this be this scarlet letter so you you worry about all these things you worry what people think or say and you know just the gossip I mean I heard things about myself uh that I was like oh I did that wow okay that that's deep isn't it you know you know I I mean when did I do that?
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:40.159
Right I'm like when when you know people are quick to make up a narrative well and also because you know if people don't know your business they'll feel compelled to make up your future um and so you you worry about all those things um you do worry about the future you know um so there's a lot of things that went into that but I I don't feel like it affected my ministry in the way that I thought it would.
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:47.840
Okay and honestly um most of the people who've encountered my ministry in the last 10 years don't even know that I was once married.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:53.519
Wow unless I tell them or that you know we have a conversation about it but it's not even a thing in that way.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:06.880
So no I would say that and but I'll say this when it comes to the stigma and the shame uh man of God said something some years ago that stuck with me that divorce is an event and not an identity.
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:20.800
And that stuck with me because a lot of times when people say why I'm a divorcee or this and that you know as a classification and it's like this thing that you wear but in naturality it is an event.
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:37.840
It's a death it was an it's an event it's a death of a marriage it's a death of a relationship it's an event but you can't take that on as identity because I don't intend to spend the rest of my life right as a divorce I I do plan to get married right and and have a family and just a life and all those things.
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:47.599
So it's an event and not an identity and I don't I don't want to embrace it as like this permanent identity this calling card you know the saying shame.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:36:02.719
You know yeah yeah and I I I feel like we we've uh come a long way uh over the la especially over the last 20 years in dealing with uh men and women in the church that that are divorced.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:25.039
Absolutely like we we've learned to have a little bit more grace and a little bit more understanding and understand that some situations you need to you know depart from some some some you you you you can work through but some you need to depart from and see one I think one of the sad things and I I even though I've been through divorce I've never been one to condone divorce even in my ministry.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:31.760
Okay um now in my pastoral counseling I I don't tell people they have to stay and I don't put them they got to go.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.559
Right because I'm not gonna own that decision for anybody.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:56.239
That part nobody's gonna be like no Pastor Quinn told me my wife but I don't you know the the old church thinking was you know they beating you upside your head oh just believe God's prayer and then then somebody ends up in the hospital or dead right and you know because the church told them they can't leave.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:56.800
Yeah.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:05.199
And I've seen some crazy situations where people have been advised and counseled and told they gotta stay.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.199
Yeah and it's been very damaging.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:07.599
Correct.
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:20.719
And so um I think that we have come a long way in the last 20 years but I think part of it is you have more pastors and leaders who are divorced now and who have you know are remarried and things like that.
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:30.559
So I think when something becomes less taboo it becomes a little more acceptable and there's less you know stigma attached to it.
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:41.039
Bro you see more pastors today being divorced and and it's kind of like a it's kind of like a twofold question.
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:58.159
First and foremost I'm just in here and you don't get the answers if you don't want to I'm a curious person um was the you was your divorce like yeah we both agreed upon or was it one-sided like no I want a divorce and that's it if you don't want to talk about it I get it.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:05.679
And then secondly what do you really hear mostly is the reason why there's divorce amongst pastors now.
00:38:06.000 --> 00:39:42.000
I won't go into the first question um but in terms of the reason it's uh a lot of things it's all over the place um I've seen some where it was infidelity right I mean to be honest you know you got pastors with outside babies and you know infidelity is a thing right um that's a thing you have some who I know some there I know there's some pastors who their spouse just left um there's a couple pastors I know that the spouse decided to leave they just like you know what this ain't the life I want and I mean that is a it is a different road and they decide to leave right so um I won't say that there's whole one reason I'm gonna say oh it's because these preachers all cheating now you know you can right no i think that was not my goal to say well this is the only reason sex I'm not saying no no I know you didn't but I'm saying that sometimes as as as church folk we can be very myopic in our thinking in a sense that you know we say well you know all these preachers divorcing because they can't they they all cheating they can't keep it together there's a lot of reasons uh that that it happens um I'm not saying that it's a good thing that it's happening right I think that that is a clarion call to the church that we have to pray I do believe that they're demonic spirits assigned to attack marriages right I believe they're anti-covenant spirits and I believe the enemy hates marriage because marriage is the only relationship that is a mirror of the Lord's relationship with his church.
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:44.880
So I believe that the enemy hates marriage.
00:39:45.039 --> 00:40:00.480
I believe the enemy hates covenant um and so I believe that it's a call to pray for marriages and pray that God would shield and protect marriages and pray for the fortitude of the couples that are the the individuals in the marriages so I believe that that's one thing.
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:24.000
I think the other thing is that we have to be intentional in how we prepare people for marriage younger people especially and don't just tell young folk oh just go get married but walk alongside them right help them to see the good the bad the ugly um but also encourage them to get to know themselves and know what they need and don't just be like oh that that person's cute and we're gonna marry them.
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:55.840
Because it's way more because it's a lot more than that right um but also don't get and I say this especially to younger preachers don't pick a a mate for church or for ministry um because you know if you're in church two days a week what you gonna do the other five right um if that's your reason so you send the That's right right you know if that's your so I think it's there's a lot of reasons that it happens.
00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:06.719
I think that sometimes we have to question what is our what is our choosing mechanism meaning that um what are you choosing in a person?
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:54.960
Are you looking at the whole of the person uh are you looking at just the physical side are you looking at whatever you know or what is and then what is your current state of mind and you know whether spiritually mentally emotionally when you're choosing um don't go grocery shopping when you're hungry right yeah you pick anything off the shelf right and then you leave the store with stuff and you're like why do I get it exactly right um and so I believe that if we can help people who are unmarried get to healthy places within themselves get to know themselves and be at peace with themselves right and be okay.
00:41:55.199 --> 00:43:06.159
Now I think sometimes we go to another extreme with that because sometimes you know you have the whole singles ministry movement back in the late 90s and early 2000s and everybody's I'm just single in with the Lord and it's me and Jesus and you know Jesus I I heard some I've even heard people say well the Lord is my husband the Lord ain't climbing up in the bed with you in the middle of the night and if somebody does that ain't the Lord it might be Jesus but it ain't Jesus I mean so you know um we had that movement years ago and I think you know you know no more sheets you know in college you watch and I think what some the byproduct of the purity movement right yes yes I think one of the negative effects of the purity movement of the 90s and early 2000s is we put so much emphasis on sexual purity that we neglected everything else right the only thing you gotta I think it did two things number one I think it sent a a kind of subtle message an unspoken message to younger American people that the only thing you gotta do to prepare for marriage is not have sex.
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:59.599
Okay okay number two it sent an indivisible message that marriage is a reward for being sexually pure so you have people who like I ain't had sex I say myself I deserve to be married and I've heard people say that I heard people say that you know I've been I've I've been holding out for seven years I know the Lord got you've been holding out for seven years but your personality is jacked up your attitude stink you know saying you haven't worked on anything you mean you know you you've been holding out and you spend all this time in your set in your house by yourself watching movies the popcorn you don't know how to be in this another person's space right so I mean right that's a real thing and and I think and that's honestly something that
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:01.199
I've had to work on with myself.
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:05.599
I, you know, as a man in ministry and have been single for a long time.
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:12.639
In relationships, I've had to really work on the, you know, I'm more set in my ways in my 40s than I was in my 20s.
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:12.880
Right.
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:16.079
So I've had to consciously, and this is an ongoing process, right?
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:21.039
I've had to consciously be like, okay, I gotta not be so set in my ways in some areas.
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:25.679
Um, and I like companionship, but I also like my space of talents too, right?
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:29.519
It's like, you know, so it's like you gotta reconcile those things, right?
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:30.320
Yes, yes.
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:35.440
And and you gotta reconcile the parts of you that you know you have to confront and change.
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:45.760
Um and so, but yeah, I think the purity movement, although I believe the idea at its core was a good intention.
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:50.719
Yeah, the good intentions, but it But it got it wasn't really clear.
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:52.239
We made an industry of it too.
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:55.280
Because people started selling these Purity Rings, everybody's writing a book about it.
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:56.079
That's true.
00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:56.719
You know what I'm saying?
00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:02.559
You know, you had youth ministries, that's true, you know, hold a whole services, that's where white, and you know, I remember, yeah.
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:04.719
And then I remember people know I'm a virgin in Christ.
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:06.559
I never went to him, but I remember.
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:08.400
You know, you were I'm a virgin in Christ.
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:12.079
My body count 742, but I'm a virgin in Christ.
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:14.000
You know, it's like, you know.
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.880
You know, I'm gonna reset.
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:20.880
Right, factory reset.
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:21.920
You know what I'm saying?
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:23.920
So I'm pure now.
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:25.360
I am pure today.
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:28.000
I was a hoe yesterday, but I'm pure today.
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:29.679
I understand why I can't get married.
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:32.639
Let me reset.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:38.000
Well, and right, and the message is because you reset, now you deserve a husband or wife.
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:39.440
That's dangerous.
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:40.400
That's dangerous, yeah.
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:46.000
Because all of a sudden, uh, and all you gotta do, stop screwing and gotta give you a mate.
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:52.559
Right, and that's when in actuality, the reason you don't have a mate may not be a sexual thing.
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:58.639
It could be timing, it could be exposure and the circles you're in.
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:00.480
You just may not be around the right people.
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:08.559
It could be something within yourself that's turning out, turning people off or turning people away, or you turn people away because you just irritable, right?
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:09.280
You know what I'm saying?
00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:10.880
So it could be a lot of things.
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:11.920
Always angry.
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:12.639
You know what I'm saying?
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:12.800
Right.
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:15.679
There are a myriad of things that could be.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:16.559
You know what I'm saying?
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:23.440
Um, so I think um Tori Kelly had a song years ago called Dear No One.
00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:23.840
Okay.
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:28.639
And uh one of these said, you know, I like being independent, not too much of an investment.
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:34.320
And talk, the whole thing was talking about just I like my space, I like being by myself and dear no one.
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:42.719
So uh I think that we gotta reflect on where you are in life, the season of life you're in.
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:45.280
And that's other things, you know, we everybody was in a single season.
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:47.599
I remember years ago, it was, you know, it was that whole movement, right?
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:53.199
Because you had the PewDiePie, then you had the whole singles movement, and everybody was in, I'm in my season of singleness.
00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:58.880
Well, at some point you gotta come out of that season and enter a season of courtship related.
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:01.119
Well, you know, and then we had the whole dating versus courtship out.
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:02.159
I don't date at court.
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:04.159
Whatever you want to call it.
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:07.920
Right, you know, you have to.
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:09.920
Are you spending time with somebody about it?
00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:17.599
Spend time with another human being that you hopefully will fall in love with and decide that you want to spend the rest of your life with them at the end of the day.
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:33.679
Now, whether you call it dating, whether you call it courting, whether you want to interview and go out with 50 people within a week, or you focus on one person for five years, however you do it, at some point you have to make the decision that says, I want to spend the rest of my life with this person.
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:41.360
And I'm willing to confront the things in myself that I need to confront, and I'm willing to trust God for the outcome and take the step.
00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:43.039
I'm gonna leap off the cliff.
00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:50.159
But I think in that movement, we for we kind of sent this message of it was like a course correction.
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:53.039
Because, you know, growing up in the church, it was get married, get married, get married.
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:53.440
Uh-huh.
00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:59.360
Then when that movement hit, it was be single, be single, be single, because we quote scriptures like, you know, the single person cares for the things of the Lord.
00:47:59.519 --> 00:47:59.679
Yes.
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:00.159
Right?
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:01.920
And we need the folks caring for the things of the Lord.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:04.719
You know, marriage can wait.
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.079
Because, you know, Paul said, you know, well, everybody is not the same.
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:12.480
Paul also said, some of you have a grace for this, and some of you don't.
00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:14.880
And he said, if you got the grace for it, God bless you.
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:16.079
And some of y'all don't.
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:21.519
And I say, and I and I ask people, you know, people would ask sometimes, well, how do I know if I if I got the grace for it?
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:24.239
I said, if you got to ask the question, you ain't got the grace for it.
00:48:26.239 --> 00:48:30.559
Well, I just want to say thank you for tuning in to this episode of Pressed into Purpose.
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:35.920
We will see you next time on the next episode of Pressed into Purpose.
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:51.760
Now you're trying to reconcile how do I go from memories with either just me or with all these multiple other different people to now moving forward into a future with memories with only one.
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:53.760
And that's a whole different.
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:55.199
I never really thought about it.
00:48:55.280 --> 00:48:58.960
I guess I've never had to think about that, but I've never really thought about it from that perspective.
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:00.880
A lot of chances of comparison there.
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:02.559
I didn't deal with this with so-and-so.
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:03.039
Yeah.
00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:04.079
I ain't so-and-so.
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:05.360
You ain't so-and-so.
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:05.840
Right.
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:06.559
Well, hold on.
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:12.000
Or you build this ideal person in your head because now you want to do the Frankenstein thing.
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:14.320
This from this one, right?
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:15.440
And that from this one.
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:19.199
If I make her brain, her finances, and her body.
00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:20.000
Listen.
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:21.039
And her love.
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:35.119
If I could take so-and-so's body with so-and-so's sweet nature and so-and-so's, you know, mind and intellect, and so-and-so's this, and so-and-so's that, and this would be the perfect person.
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:36.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:49.920
And so what will happen is you're now comparing people, you're comparing real human beings to an image in your mind that's actually the compilation of multiple people that you've met, and it's not based on a real person.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:50.320
Yeah.
00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:51.920
An idea.
00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:52.719
Yeah.
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:59.760
And so now people that you meet are competing with an idea in your head that they don't even know is there.
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.599
Which is totally unfair.
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:02.639
To both.
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:03.519
To both.
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:08.639
See you next time.