Flashback: Alien Intrusion and the UTH

WEBVTT
1
00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:11.240
Monster House Presents. This episode is part of our Monster
2
00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:14.320
Talk flashback series. I'm cross posting it to our sister
3
00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:17.120
show in Research of the show where Jeb Cart and
4
00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:19.440
I watch and comment on episodes of the Vintage Leonard
5
00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:22.800
nine Boy host a TV series in search of if
6
00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.760
you somehow ended up listening to one of our shows
7
00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:26.559
and weren't aware of the other. Links to both were
8
00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:29.920
in the show notes for in research of I'm currently
9
00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.240
editing the Bimini Wall episode, but ironically I'm running behind
10
00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:35.840
because of many unavoidable issues, one of which is that
11
00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:38.880
I'm going to be in Bimini in person with my
12
00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.520
wife to celebrate twenty five years of marriage on a
13
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:45.159
skeptics cruise hosted by the long running podcast Skeptoy.
14
00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:46.119
If we don't.
15
00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:48.240
Disappear to the Permuter Triangle, I'll be able to finish
16
00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:52.159
up this Bimini episode soon after returning home. The episode
17
00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:55.960
is a flashback from January twenty eighteen, and I'm cross
18
00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:59.159
posting it because Jeb and I just posted a five
19
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.039
hour look back at the film The Mothmet Prophecies, and
20
00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:05.920
Jeb was suggesting that revisiting our discussion of the utch
21
00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:10.079
in this roundtable would make a good supplementary episode for
22
00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.120
that topic. So links in the shows to all this
23
00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.519
cross pollination stuff, and I hope.
24
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:17.359
You enjoy the monstrutle.
25
00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:22.159
Last week I went to see a film called Alien Intrusion.
26
00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:24.000
Here's a little sample from the trailer.
27
00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:28.280
Now, I'm a science fiction fan, and I can tell
28
00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:30.799
you the truth is out there, but it's a lot
29
00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.319
stranger than any science fiction.
30
00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:38.359
It's claimed that over twenty million Americans have seen in UFO.
31
00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:42.280
The Ropapole concluded that up to four men in Americans
32
00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:44.319
had been abducted by aliens.
33
00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:47.680
I've been involved in the development of space vehicles for
34
00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:51.799
expiration for over sixty years. You know, there are massive
35
00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:55.439
problems with the idea that advanced aliens can simply work
36
00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:59.920
themselves around the galaxy. The starship Enterprise travels at multiple
37
00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:00.760
luck pusion.
38
00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:04.359
It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.
39
00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:12.000
A giant, hairy creature, part ape, part Matt in Luckness,
40
00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:14.319
a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the
41
00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:15.400
Highlands of Scotland.
42
00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:40.919
It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monstert.
43
00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:44.840
Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
44
00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.560
Blake Smith. And this week we're going to be talking
45
00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:49.960
about a film that I saw last week called Alien
46
00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:54.759
Intrusion and how it relates to something called the ultraterrestrial hypothesis.
47
00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:57.080
In the interview that follows, you're going to hear a
48
00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:00.960
discussion with Joe Laycock, Natasha Michaels, Jeb Card, all of
49
00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:04.080
whom have been on Monster Talk before joined the Tasha
50
00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.199
teach religious studies. We've had them on to discuss Tulpa's
51
00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.879
in relationship to the slender Man, and we had on
52
00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.759
Joe to talk about Satanism and the Satanic Panic and
53
00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.680
dungeons and dragons, and we've had Jebond to talk about
54
00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:22.919
fairies with our archaeological fantasies crossover. Anyway, you'll recognize their voices,
55
00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:25.159
I believe if you're a regular listener, And their discussion
56
00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:29.360
we're about to have is about ultraterrestrials, John Keel, the
57
00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:34.039
paranormal Unified Field theory, and this film Alien Intrusion and
58
00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.439
how it ties in UFOs and demons. It's really quite
59
00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:39.439
interesting and I hope you'll give it a listen. And
60
00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:41.439
I want to give a quick thank you to Peter Ahler,
61
00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:44.120
my friend who joined me to watch this film in
62
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:49.599
preparation for this episode Morensterutle. All right, so welcome to
63
00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:51.280
Monster Talk again, all of you.
64
00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:53.319
Thank you very much, Oh, thank you.
65
00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.319
So we're here tonight to talk about some things. This
66
00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.439
is going to be kind of a roundtable discussion, and I,
67
00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:05.400
along with Sharon Hill, have been working on researching something
68
00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.000
that we're calling well, actually, Jeb, why don't you explain
69
00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:09.159
what the PUFT is.
70
00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:12.319
The puff to the paranormal unified field theory. Yeah, I
71
00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:12.879
think we're.
72
00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:14.199
Going to come back to it again and again, but
73
00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:19.560
basically wrestling with the idea that all sorts of things
74
00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:23.240
that people put into what academics might call the Celtic amelia,
75
00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:28.240
which include conspiracy theory as well as words like occult, paranormal, etcetera.
76
00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:29.720
I'm probably not the person to talk about this in
77
00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:33.480
this conversation, but that people would talk about as being
78
00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:39.399
paranormal are all increasingly in the community that's very interested
79
00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:42.120
in such topics interlinked.
80
00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:44.360
Yeah, and it's a thing that I'm interested in. And
81
00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:45.399
when we went to.
82
00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:49.160
Cryptocon we saw very firsthand, and it's a thing I've
83
00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:50.759
been talking about a lot. And then I think I
84
00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:52.560
finally all convinced you all that it really was a
85
00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:56.920
thing after seeing it there with dogmen and whatnot.
86
00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:57.680
Yeah.
87
00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:02.360
So, yeah, the Michigan dog Man and other aspects of
88
00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:06.120
the paranormal, they don't fit into the flesh and blood,
89
00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:09.120
meat and bones sort of aspect of things. And this
90
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.839
is not new because even really early on in the
91
00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:16.920
UFO world, there was a split. And I say UFOs
92
00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:20.680
first because that sort of predates Bigfoot. Doesn't really predate
93
00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:22.600
the yety, but it does predate Bigfoot. There was a
94
00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:29.079
split between the UFOs are real physical craft and UFOs
95
00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:36.279
are some sort of ultradimensional or transdimensional phenomena. And I
96
00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:40.480
guess the guy who really focused on the ultraterrestrial hypothesis,
97
00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:42.720
in fact, who gave it that name, is John Keel.
98
00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.199
He doesn't invent he doesn't invent the concept. And honestly,
99
00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:50.800
I think we're probably going to backwork into the roots
100
00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:53.680
of this in all right, So, if you listen to
101
00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:56.839
the show that I'm usually on archaeological fantasies, we generally
102
00:05:56.839 --> 00:06:01.800
have two drinking game words. One is victorian in and
103
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:06.959
the other is theosophy. And I'm about to say both.
104
00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:11.319
So I just did what's that that.
105
00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:12.519
We have drinks and hands.
106
00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:14.480
All right, So why don't we introduce why don't we
107
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:15.959
talk about let's bring in the other people on this,
108
00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.439
because I guarantee, because I'm just going to say this
109
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:23.800
straight out one y'all's discussion of Tulpa's, which are very
110
00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:28.480
tied into this on Monster Talk was astonishing and also
111
00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:30.160
it appears to have made it on the X Files,
112
00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:31.240
which is pretty amazing.
113
00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:32.560
That is awesome.
114
00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:36.680
Locks Yeah, yeah, no, very much.
115
00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:38.839
Well, let me let me explain why I invited joined
116
00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.279
Natasha on. It's because, in conjunction with his research I've
117
00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:46.079
been doing to help Jeb on an article that he's
118
00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:53.439
working on, I synchronistically had a friend point me to
119
00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:57.720
this theater event that was happening called Alien Intrusion, and
120
00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:00.480
I looked into it and within about five minutes realized
121
00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:02.720
that this was not a UFO documentary. This was a
122
00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:03.920
religious documentary.
123
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:06.360
Well it is a UFO doctors, Well it is, I'd say,
124
00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:08.040
it's just kind of the point, right, it is.
125
00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:10.439
It is a Well, in fact, we'll get to that.
126
00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:13.439
But because of the fact that it looked to me
127
00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:21.519
like they were basically saying that UFOs were a demonological phenomena,
128
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:24.399
I thought that there was a good chance it might
129
00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:27.680
tie in with this ultraterrestrial hypothesis stuff, and so I
130
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.439
went to watch the film. And after and even before
131
00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:31.800
I went to watch the film, I reached out to
132
00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:35.079
Joe because this is a film in theaters, right, It
133
00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:39.680
was a special event Fathom Events hosted, So this is
134
00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:42.800
like a one night simulcast across many theaters.
135
00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.399
And so you saw in the theater, and Joe and Natasha,
136
00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:46.600
I believe you saw it in the theater.
137
00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:49.519
It was one night only. How could we resist?
138
00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:50.839
That's right? Yeah, So I.
139
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:54.920
Am going to be the This is a horrifying position
140
00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:57.040
for everybody involved. I guess I'm going to be the
141
00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:00.000
audience proxy because I have not seen this. I've looked
142
00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.000
into it. I've seen the guest list or the speaker's list,
143
00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:04.360
but I have not seen this.
144
00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:05.160
So I will probably be.
145
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:10.000
Asking questions about us. I'm the I'm the far end
146
00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.800
of that spectrum. I've lived this. So when I was
147
00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:15.600
growing up, my mother told me not to be afraid
148
00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:19.920
of UFOs or aliens, because Lucifer is the lord of
149
00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:23.000
the heir and could make all things appear to be
150
00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.199
something that they're not. Basically, that it's much more likely
151
00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:30.519
that it's demons than physical aliens from another planet, and
152
00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:34.600
that was really seriously the hypothesis of this film.
153
00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.519
Yeah, so it did go straight up demons.
154
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:40.240
Oh absolutely, And I want to get into it quite Yeah,
155
00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.720
I'm just no. But but Joe or Natasha both being
156
00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:46.960
religious studies people, both being very familiar with the field
157
00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:50.519
and having a much deeper knowledge of religious studies than
158
00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:52.200
I have. I mean, I've only got sort of the
159
00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:58.080
evangelical Christian view and the lightest understanding of other religions.
160
00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:00.159
So I thought it would be helpful to have them
161
00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.200
to give us some context. So I really appreciate you
162
00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:04.759
guys joining us and for attending the film, because it
163
00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:07.320
gives you absolutely the best position to talk about it.
164
00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:08.639
Yeah.
165
00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:10.600
Well, the way that they did this is you were saying,
166
00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:12.799
Fathom looks like they were set up if you know,
167
00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:15.360
there's a Broadway show and you want to watch it
168
00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:19.120
at a movie theater live, and so using that as
169
00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:21.960
a distributor whatever audience there would be. It seems that
170
00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:25.039
it just got split up across because multiple movie theaters
171
00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:27.519
in Austin were showing it. When we went, there were
172
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.000
less than a dozen people in the audience, A good
173
00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:34.000
portion of them seemed to be ufo buffs who walked
174
00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:37.639
out in anger really about halfway through it. And I
175
00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.080
looked today on the IMDb page for this film, and
176
00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:42.279
in the trivia it actually says lots of people walked
177
00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:46.159
out of this film because they didn't know it was religious.
178
00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:50.440
And Natasha also got pretty restless and got up during
179
00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:54.759
the film and actually saw an audience member berating the
180
00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:56.320
poor guy taking tickets.
181
00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:59.679
Oh God, Asha, what can you remember.
182
00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:00.240
From that conversation?
183
00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:05.600
So he was out talking to the young young guy
184
00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:09.360
taking tickets and was just saying that, well, I guess
185
00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:11.799
I should have researched this film better, but shame on
186
00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:13.159
you guys for showing this.
187
00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:16.120
And this poor kid is you know, he doesn't make
188
00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.919
these decisions. He take some tickets, and then he kept saying,
189
00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:22.159
you know, I want to go out and get a
190
00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.799
breath of fresh air, but I don't have my ticket
191
00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:28.159
to return. You know, He's like, I think I need
192
00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.320
to go take a walk, And he seemed very very agitated.
193
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:33.240
And I was actually in the search of trying to
194
00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.879
get myself a water or something, because by this point
195
00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:39.360
the movie had been going on for about two hours,
196
00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:41.720
and at this point I was just beating us over
197
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:47.480
the head with New Testament versus and different things from
198
00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:48.440
Paul's letters.
199
00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:51.399
So it's so.
200
00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.639
It would have been a great one hour sort of
201
00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.720
presentation I think. I mean, you could have made the
202
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:05.120
case in an hour, but they stretched it out to
203
00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:07.799
two and then had like a Q and a afterwards.
204
00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:08.360
A Q and a.
205
00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:11.000
Yeah, like there were people from the film sort of
206
00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:12.559
the company or whatever.
207
00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:16.320
Right, Oh it was. It was definitely a bait and switch,
208
00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:17.639
I think.
209
00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.960
Which the first IMDb review that shows up the title
210
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:25.000
is I feel lied to, with lied to being all.
211
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:26.879
Caps, which is why I put a little more volume
212
00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:27.200
behind that.
213
00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:31.240
Yeah, I do know the bait and switch evangelical approach
214
00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.039
has been around for a long time. I mean I
215
00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.679
remember many times when I was a kid going to
216
00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:38.240
the fair and then have like free puppet show and
217
00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.200
then you know it's a puppet show, but it is
218
00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:43.200
definitely an evangelical, you know, conversion puppet show.
219
00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:46.360
I've also done that to get anthropology majors.
220
00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.840
But yeah, I remember in college there was a free
221
00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.039
comedy night and it was an evangelical bait and switch.
222
00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:57.679
Yeah, I don't think that's kind of like it's almost
223
00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:02.759
like a pious fraud, you know, it's not like quite
224
00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:05.399
faking a miracle, but it is it is a little
225
00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:06.120
bit deceptive.
226
00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:09.600
And which is by the way, literally the subtitle of
227
00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.320
the movie, it is Alien Intrusion Unmasking a Deception.
228
00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:15.559
Well, surprise, I got one of the deceptions for here.
229
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.399
Narrated by John Schneider, one of the two dudes from
230
00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:19.200
the Dukes of Hazzard.
231
00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:20.039
Yeah.
232
00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:23.960
Yeah, that was also interesting because John Schneider now does
233
00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:28.080
something called Faith Works Productions and so important. Again, but
234
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.720
he did not introduce himself as Bo Duke from Dukes
235
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.759
of Hazzard. He introduced himself as Clark Kent's dad from
236
00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:36.759
the show Smallville.
237
00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:39.399
Interesting, that's right, yeah.
238
00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.080
After the sci fi craft.
239
00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:45.039
Yeah, and also just people who are, you know, younger
240
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:46.879
than a lot.
241
00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:47.600
Yeah.
242
00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:50.440
Let me tell you a different view of the audience.
243
00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:54.879
My theater sold out two auditoriums, and it real almost
244
00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:58.679
entirely church groups where everybody knew everybody. Everybody was like, hey,
245
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.080
brother so and so, and hey sister so and so.
246
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:04.000
There was there was a real sense that I had
247
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.679
walked into a church service. And before the movie started,
248
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:14.679
there were a lot of advertisements about Creation Ministries. It
249
00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:18.480
was really and the narrator or not the narrative. The
250
00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.159
director of the show is from Australia, so he wasn't
251
00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.399
ken Ham, but there is a strong I'm just just kind.
252
00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:27.240
Of immediately go where my mind went.
253
00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:29.919
Thank you, Yeah, no exactly. It wasn't kN Ham, but
254
00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:34.639
it was yet another strong Australia anti evolutionary thing, and
255
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.759
I wish Karen was here to defish your country.
256
00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:43.039
Christian Ministries had a nasty breakup with ken Ham in
257
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.000
two thousand and six, and the reasons for this are
258
00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.399
not entirely clear, but there's a lot online if you
259
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.759
want to dig into that breakup.
260
00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:53.440
It was a secret anti chin Beard sort of movement.
261
00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:00.240
Wow wow, that's harsh but fair. By the way, he
262
00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:01.360
does not have.
263
00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.159
Like they sell a little pamphlet about UFOs at the
264
00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:05.960
so pretty much if you go to the Creation Museum,
265
00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:09.519
all the stuff they sell text wise is theirs, which
266
00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:10.639
surprised me when I went there.
267
00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:11.879
I've not been to the ark and Karra, but.
268
00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.080
In the Creation Museum and they do have a tiny
269
00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:17.759
little pamphlet on UFOs and they don't do the demonology thing.
270
00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:23.200
They actually have a largely skeptical perspective that basically says
271
00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:28.159
sightings are probably blah blah blah mistakes, and the idea
272
00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:29.639
of aliens reifies evolution.
273
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:34.159
Let me just say that a good seventy percent of
274
00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:35.960
the first half of this movie. I know that's a
275
00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.399
little bit of too much math, probably, but the predominant
276
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:44.279
content of the first half of the film was about
277
00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:48.440
what the UFO phenomena is and why modern day science
278
00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:53.039
rejects the idea that physical extraterrestrial craft are traveling from
279
00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:55.639
other planets. It could have been put on by psycop
280
00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:00.879
It was absolutely you know. Bullet pointed the same arguments
281
00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:03.600
that most physicists have against the idea that just as
282
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.679
a visiting Earth, but they moved, which does open the
283
00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:09.919
way for demons, which makes that they move on to
284
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.080
the argument, well, people are seeing something, so what are
285
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:17.559
they seeing. If it's not physical craft, it must be demons.
286
00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.399
So I mean that there's a lot of other things
287
00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.639
that I would have liked them to include it, but
288
00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:29.200
the idea that maybe it's misidentified or misunderstood, or sleep paralysis,
289
00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:30.399
none of those ideas came up.
290
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:32.440
So how much of it was abduction?
291
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:36.120
Like looking at the IMDb thing, abduction seems to come
292
00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:38.279
up a lot, was a lot of it, which if
293
00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:42.120
they're talking about sort of demonological you know, nocturnal attacks,
294
00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:43.879
abduction seems like it would be a big part of
295
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.399
Is that a big focus in the film Big?
296
00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.559
The second half is all about abduction, Yeah, because.
297
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:55.200
The narrator says, abductees are the most testable evidence that
298
00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.000
we have of this phenomenon.
299
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:00.399
Wow, which I guess wow in.
300
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.600
The sense that you can bring an abductee to a.
301
00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:04.440
Lab and like yeah on them.
302
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:08.519
But a lot of upologists, including you know, Jacques Ballet,
303
00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:11.200
have said the contact these are the worst evidence, right,
304
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:14.240
The best evidence are is ideally a video or something
305
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:17.720
like that, and not somebody who is remembering something under hypnosis.
306
00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:20.399
But on the other hand, of course Ballet is also
307
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:23.720
mister aliens or fairies, which if you want to be
308
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:28.000
away with the fairies and missing time under the hills
309
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:28.600
and uh.
310
00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.000
They brought up fairies. You have been so proud of them.
311
00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:36.279
Oh, I've made all the made all the mistakes in
312
00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:37.120
my life.
313
00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:42.480
Especially when they use the abductees, because it's like they
314
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:44.919
were they were trying to show in the first half
315
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.279
or the first two thirds, like this is all illogical.
316
00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.960
You know, fast than light travel is illogical, and you
317
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:52.960
know all this other stuff.
318
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:55.799
And then when we got to the abductees.
319
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.200
There was just so much crying and with like really
320
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.399
sad piano keys in the background. Music was horrible, and
321
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:03.639
it was just it was just this like kind of
322
00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:06.480
blatant appeal to emotion as it.
323
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.599
Was telling stories over sat piano. Interesting.
324
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:10.119
Yeah, yeah, that's very popular.
325
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.000
Sorry, it's a little in joke there, but so so
326
00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.039
it was very very like like sort of therapy culture
327
00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:21.880
kind of sort of with the app which is not
328
00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:23.359
a new.
329
00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:24.960
Criticism of abduction stuff.
330
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:28.039
Not so much. They treated the abductees like they'd had
331
00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:33.799
legitimate experiences. They they very politely discussed the common feature
332
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:39.039
of the rectal probes, and then they basically came down
333
00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:43.240
to correct me if I'm over simplifying this, Natasha Joe.
334
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.240
But I think it came down to invoking the name
335
00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:50.799
of Jesus Christ repeatedly is the best defense against alien abduction.
336
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:53.440
That's right, and and and two of the people in
337
00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:57.039
the film are involved in this ministry called alien resistance.
338
00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.079
I think the websites they were in there, that's a
339
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:01.279
amazing I've been.
340
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.240
In their church yep, right across right.
341
00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:05.720
Well they're not anymore, but they used to be literally
342
00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.720
across the street from the UFO Museum in Roswell.
343
00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.200
Yeah, and there's a resistance is fertile?
344
00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:13.720
Nice?
345
00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:14.319
Nice?
346
00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:19.559
Do they still have as their symbol the sort of
347
00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:24.680
no smoking aka Ghostbusters like the red circle with oh
348
00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:26.400
my god, what the alien had? The gray head in
349
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:32.200
the middle. My favorite picture period of all is I
350
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.359
went to the two thousand and two UFO Festival in
351
00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:41.559
Roswell and the Rallians, the group that is basically a
352
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:46.680
contact ee flying saucer religious new religious movement primarily based
353
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:47.279
out of Quebec.
354
00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:48.559
All those a ton of them in Korea.
355
00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:52.480
They were going to speak, not it wasn't gonna be
356
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.119
rey Ale, but it was disciples of His who made
357
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:57.640
their hair and beard look like his, who were going
358
00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.000
to speak at the International UFO Museum and Research Center
359
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.039
aka the big museum with a almost as big gift
360
00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:08.799
shop attached to it. Then at the last minute their
361
00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:11.880
speaking got revoked because they were too weird for the
362
00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:17.319
UFO Museum, which is a merit badge. But they were
363
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:21.559
allowed in to the Alien Resistance storefront church, which at
364
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.359
that time existed across the street. And the story behind
365
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.759
that is I know his name is Guy. I don't
366
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.039
remember his last name, but he was from I want
367
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.400
to say, Tennessee in the nineteen nineties, and.
368
00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:34.200
If you all know the story, better please interrupt me.
369
00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:38.440
In the nineteen nineties, he started having in essence what
370
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.240
would be sort of alien abduction or what a skeptic
371
00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:45.000
would say would be sleep paralysis events, but he interpreted
372
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.000
them from a born again perspective as demonic attacks, and
373
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:50.960
so he decided, well, where am I going to go
374
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.960
into the belly of the beast. He went to Roswell,
375
00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:55.599
right at the sort of the height of all of this,
376
00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.839
and opened up a storefront church of a ministry again
377
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:04.880
aliens because he believes their demons. But they allowed the aliens,
378
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:08.400
who say they don't worship aliens, they say they're atheists,
379
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:14.359
but they kind of worship aliens, allowed them to come
380
00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:16.480
in and speak. And there is a picture that a
381
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:19.480
dude who was sort of reliving the film Six Days
382
00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:21.960
in Roswell, which is a very interesting film. God of
383
00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:24.480
me listening to all of this, and I now have
384
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.160
it in every who am I? Because I don't want
385
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:30.000
to do this lecture at the beginning of semesters. The
386
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.359
guy I'm Alone, I want to say it was Guy
387
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.559
Alone that seems very like Batman, villain from the thirties.
388
00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.160
I wasn't certain, but that sounds right. Yeah.
389
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.279
Yeah, He and Joe Jordan, who they said was the
390
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:46.880
moufon director for South Korea. Interesting players in the film.
391
00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.440
Yeah yeah, and then Jim Subtle from Roswell as well.
392
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:52.799
Wow. Yeah.
393
00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:55.079
I don't know if they're still in Roswell. I know
394
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:57.440
they are no longer in right in front of the museum,
395
00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.039
but I don't know if they've left Roswell.
396
00:20:59.039 --> 00:20:59.960
I get the feeling they're still there.
397
00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:03.640
I saw some YouTube videos a few years ago of
398
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.240
them having sort of an alternate conference at the same
399
00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:11.400
time as the Big festival, and one of the people
400
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:15.599
in the film spoke there, who I don't believe has
401
00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:19.440
the same ideology one Nick Redford.
402
00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:28.680
I don't know what Nick believes exactly, but I know
403
00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:31.519
that he makes his living off of the same sort
404
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:36.599
of topics that I'm interested in and doesn't have the
405
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:41.680
sort of skeptical framework that I do. But he was
406
00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:43.960
in the movie quite a bit, and every time Nick
407
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:47.519
Redford appears. It's moments later we see John Keel over
408
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:49.799
and over and over again. So it's like Nick Redford,
409
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:54.039
Nick Nick Redford serves as John Keel's proxy for this film.
410
00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:57.200
Well, do we want to briefly talk about that a little? Like?
411
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.039
Like, not briefly, I think we should talk about a
412
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:00.359
whole lot.
413
00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:01.519
Okay, all right, I mean I just didn't know if
414
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:03.079
if there was anything else we need to get out
415
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:03.400
of the way.
416
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:05.920
Yeah, no, I think. I mean, I think the main
417
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:10.480
thing is that, you know, my position as a skeptic.
418
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.799
You know, we're a podcast that works with Skeptic Magazine.
419
00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:18.039
But I've always felt that I think it's absolutely fine
420
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:20.880
that people have religion. I you know, I grew up
421
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.440
in a religious family. I'm not an anti god person.
422
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.440
I'm not an anti religious person. I am a very
423
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:32.359
pro evidence person, and I don't think I think that
424
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:38.240
the usefulness of using skeptical methodology to figure out whether
425
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.039
things are really demonstrably true or testably true or not
426
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.200
is important, and critical thinking is important, and I find
427
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:49.119
it unfortunate that this whole thing is also wrapped up
428
00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:54.920
in a big anti evolution nutshell, because the I think
429
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.480
there's very few scientific theories that have turned out to
430
00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:02.440
be so demonstrably reliable as natural selection as an explanation
431
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:06.440
for evolution, and as a quick reminder for audience members
432
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:10.240
who may not know it, the evolution itself was never
433
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.279
really debatable. I think prior to Darwin, Darwin was looking
434
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.920
for a mechanism to explain it. He wasn't inventing evolution.
435
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.640
Evolution already existed. His grandfather had talked about evolution. But
436
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:23.680
what he did was came up with natural selection as
437
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.920
a methodology to explain how, over time, selective pressures can
438
00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:31.519
cause change that looks like design. And it's interesting to
439
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:35.519
me that that a group that's primarily focused on pro
440
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:39.559
creation as not pro creation but promoting.
441
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.880
Yea, is that they're parly clear of that up.
442
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:47.720
I think that that's their primary sort of focus. That
443
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:50.319
they would hop into the alien hot tub and want
444
00:23:50.359 --> 00:23:53.400
to have a swim with us is fascinating. So and
445
00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:55.599
I'm not sure where that metaphor just went, but uh.
446
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.799
Well, well, let's what's I think. As an archaeologist, I
447
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.119
like to sort of look at things from it. Let's
448
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:07.599
let's go to an origins. If you watch any random
449
00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.920
documentary about although maybe these days maybe not so much,
450
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:13.319
but in the past, and I think sleep in today
451
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.039
about UFOs, what would the origin be like?
452
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:20.160
What? What what would be the.
453
00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:22.200
UFOs were first blah blah blah blah blah, Well, what
454
00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:25.759
would it prop what would the sort of bill.
455
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:27.960
Popular Keith Arnold as the first and then the.
456
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:29.880
June twenty fourth, nineteen forty seven.
457
00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:31.920
Yeah, and then they go back and say, oh, but
458
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.359
there were also airships and go back to the Bible
459
00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:35.519
and Ezekiel, right.
460
00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.880
But the thing, so, the typical kind of kind of
461
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:42.920
perspective on this is you have this sudden emergence of
462
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:46.160
this phenomenon of strange things seen in the sky that
463
00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:47.960
may have something to do without her space, although it
464
00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:49.440
takes a few years for it to sort of go
465
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:52.680
there in the summer of nineteen forty seven, specifically starting,
466
00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:56.000
as Keiland has pointed out, on Saint John's Day, John
467
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.279
about this day on June twenty fourth, bye, And I
468
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:02.119
would love to turn this over to people who probably
469
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:03.680
know a hell a lot more about this than I do.
470
00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:07.960
The actual origins of all of this can of what
471
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.960
we call flying saucers and UFOs and many of the
472
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.000
ideas that we see emerge after nineteen forty seven, can
473
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.319
all be found? Can I'll put your glasses in your hand.
474
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:23.079
In the late Victorian period and in sort of the
475
00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:27.839
movement known as Theosophy, which is sort of a reaction
476
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.839
to modernity in some ways and in other ways it's not.
477
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:32.599
It gets really complicated, and I'd love you all to
478
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:36.119
talk about more than me. That then kind of tracks
479
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:41.480
through places like Maurice Doriol and Richard Shaver and gets
480
00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:44.160
up there. So the reason I say this is the
481
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:49.880
idea that you'd have psychical interests or what we'd call
482
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.839
parapsychological or psychic mixed in with strange things in the sky,
483
00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:58.359
mixed in with weird places, mixed in with strange creatures
484
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:01.000
is actually not new.
485
00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.079
And if anybody wants to jump in, feel free.
486
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:08.519
Yeah, a couple of things. You know, the Christian attitude
487
00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.839
that these are just demons goes back to probably the
488
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:16.279
seventies and is you know, fairly mainstream and serving the movements.
489
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:19.880
How Lindsay wrote a lot about this, that the UFOs
490
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:22.119
are the false miracles that's going to usher in the
491
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:24.960
end times. What was different about this was I have
492
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:29.119
never seen a Christian take on UFOs. That gets into
493
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:32.599
Jacques deval At and John Keel and what you call
494
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:38.200
the puffed yeah, unified field theory. And there's some consequences
495
00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:41.160
to that. One of them is people like haw lindsay
496
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:44.680
assumed UFOs have never happened before, and if they're happening now,
497
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:47.480
it's because these are the end days. Interesting in this
498
00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:49.599
film they have to say, well, this is actually always
499
00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:54.319
gone on, right, because there's always been demons you mentioned
500
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.039
I think Blake mentioned Ezekiel, which is interesting Ezekiel did
501
00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:59.480
not show up in this film, yeah, because that would
502
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:01.279
have kind of throw a monkey ranch into they're claim
503
00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:03.880
that all anything that looks like an alien is demonic, right,
504
00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:06.200
because they can't say the wheels that's seen by the
505
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:07.480
prophet Ezekiel were demonic.
506
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:10.519
They have because they're they're angelic, right, They're angelic, right,
507
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:12.000
So that's interesting.
508
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.000
That that was sort of a left interesting the.
509
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:18.680
Angel Gabriel and Mohammad showed up, as did the as
510
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:19.799
did Joseph Smith.
511
00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:24.920
That right, what yeah, yeah, because these are it goes.
512
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.599
I think that tied into the nobody should add anything
513
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:31.920
to the Bible approach, right, like the original prophecies of
514
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.640
the Bible are the Bible incomplete and anything that happens
515
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:37.839
after that is entirely suspect.
516
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:41.200
Right, So this this thing basically argue that Gabriel and
517
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.440
Mohammad is demonic and Joseph Smith is demonic. Not them,
518
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:48.680
but the revelations thereof.
519
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:53.200
Yes, wonderful at scientology. And so really the film was
520
00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:55.640
putting all three of these religions in the same category.
521
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.440
Who propaganda When.
522
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:01.000
They talk about scientolic, tell me about the scientology that
523
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:03.000
may actually get into some of what I would love
524
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:04.640
to talk about. Tell me more what they talked about
525
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:05.200
in the film.
526
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:08.880
Well, so they're approaching euthology from what I would call
527
00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:13.680
a haresiological perspective, basically saying this is a false religion. Right,
528
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:15.640
they say it's a scientific theory. It's not it's a
529
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.440
false religion. And I mean they actually make some good
530
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:21.519
points on that front. Some religion scholars might agree with them,
531
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:23.680
not that it's a false religion, but that it serves
532
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:26.599
a kind of religious function in people's lives. And then
533
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:28.119
they say, and we know that there are religions that
534
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:32.039
have been started by contact with these entities such as scientology,
535
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:34.960
and there's a slide very quickly of a scientology temple.
536
00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:38.200
I don't really think it's an accurate assessment of the
537
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:40.319
history of scientology. I think they were banking on the
538
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:42.720
fact that people will have heard of this religion and
539
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.000
they'll have a negative attitude about it, and this will
540
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.680
sort of score points with the audience down.
541
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:51.200
So they didn't get into like say Jack Parsons now
542
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:54.440
because given that they got redfern there. So we will
543
00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:57.920
probably come back to this, but probably Nick Redferns, who's
544
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.039
written a lot on UFOs and his big thing and
545
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:02.200
he talks about like his ide you know, he likes
546
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.119
the idea that like things like NeSSI and Bigfoot may
547
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:08.759
actually be psychic thought forms or spirit not spirits, but
548
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:12.920
more parapsychological than biological. But he wrote a book in
549
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:17.759
twenty ten, I believe, called Final Events where he argues
550
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:21.599
that there has been this group inside the United States government.
551
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:25.440
He calls the Collins elite that have become eventually born
552
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:28.880
again or evangelical Christians that pretty much buy into this
553
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:31.960
worldview that UFOs in fact are demonological and that they
554
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.200
intend to do something about it. And I actually there's
555
00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.240
an episode of Sharon Hill's fifteen credibility straight. We talked
556
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:41.440
about this at some length because that's what I do.
557
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:46.440
How the recent revelation of and things related to it.
558
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:47.880
I don't want to really get into this too heard
559
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:50.039
unless it becomes an issue because there will be a
560
00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:57.079
rabbit hole of the Department of Defense. Recent UFO project
561
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:02.720
actually lends some interesting credibility to the idea that such
562
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.519
a group or groups like it, or one could see
563
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:09.079
how such groups might be in essence bouncing off of
564
00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:15.920
a longer term sort of parapsychological, youthhological sort of I
565
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:18.519
like to use the word rolodex, but sort of contact
566
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.680
list of people you call people in the remote viewing thing.
567
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:23.440
And again, this is getting into a rabbit hole. So
568
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:26.480
let's leave it alone for the moment. But that's why
569
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:28.839
we keep bringing up in addition to him being the
570
00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:31.839
one who is not a primary religious apologist.
571
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.359
In the film Nick Redford.
572
00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:41.799
And Final Events is discussed explicitly.
573
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:45.920
Yeah it is. Oh, so let's just let's let's talk
574
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:46.519
about that then.
575
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:48.799
Yeah, so tell us. I mean I still have not
576
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:51.160
read Final Events, although after seeing this, I.
577
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:53.079
Well, what do they say in the film, what do
578
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:53.960
they say in the film.
579
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:59.720
I wrote down Final Events. Look this up. This is
580
00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:01.960
a super helpful, right. It was one of the I
581
00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:05.359
know they made quotes from Redfern he explicitly talked about
582
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:07.000
he said, I talked about this in Final Events. I
583
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:08.960
believes what he said. I can go back and get
584
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:09.799
the exact quotes.
585
00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:14.359
Later, Redford names his source, who he said was a priest.
586
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:16.680
And I've got that written down.
587
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:17.039
I didn't.
588
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.160
I didn't want to say it, but it's his Final Events.
589
00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:20.359
He's been in Moufon.
590
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:22.839
He's been a long term UFO investigator, but he's also
591
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:23.559
a priest.
592
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.839
He was the head of Nebraska move On, I believe.
593
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:30.839
Yeah, yeah, he was like a state director. Yeah yeah,
594
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:31.440
but he's not.
595
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:34.160
I've got a contact in mouf On. I don't want
596
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:36.599
to talk much about this, but he said that it's
597
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:39.559
an interesting mix of people and there are people who
598
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:42.559
you know, who believe in the extra tristial hypothesis, and
599
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:46.559
there's people who explicitly believe there's angels and demons involved.
600
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:47.880
Yeah, that's correct.
601
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:52.319
I find that fascinating. But you know, it's so. Moufon
602
00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:55.519
has been around the mutual ufone network exactly.
603
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:57.359
Yeah, since the seventies.
604
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:01.160
It basically arose out of the ashes of APRO. I
605
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:04.359
think was the Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization, which sort of
606
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.359
arose out of the ashes of NICAPAP, which was sort
607
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:11.680
of for a long time the big UFO Civilian Bureau
608
00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:14.880
since the fifties and so since the seventies and especially
609
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:17.680
since the eighties, Muffon has been the sort of last
610
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.240
man standing of UFO groups and the recent Department of
611
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:25.240
Defense stuff. It has not been proven that government funding
612
00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:28.359
was directed towards them, but pretty much everybody's looked at
613
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:31.920
the situation, looks at timelines and says Robert Bigelow was
614
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.039
funding them at points, and here's when he got money
615
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:36.640
from the government, and it's the same time.
616
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:38.279
Therefore, therefore therefore.
617
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:40.599
Yeah, so there's a lot of interesting ties. You can
618
00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:42.079
draw lines all over the place.
619
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:46.759
Yeah, so final events is brought up in the film interesting.
620
00:32:48.039 --> 00:32:51.279
So again this book that Redford, and you can find
621
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:53.880
a lot of podcasts and interviews and things he's done.
622
00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:56.079
He pretty much tells you a lot about the book
623
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:58.640
out there, so you can just look this up everywhere.
624
00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:01.839
But basically he makes the argument that so in this
625
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:04.519
guy Ray b O'Shea, who is in movifile comes in
626
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:07.880
and says, look, there's this group called the Collins Elite
627
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:12.200
that has come to me and has told me that
628
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:15.000
there are groups inside the United States government that are
629
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:16.759
very involved in UFOs, but they have come to the
630
00:33:16.759 --> 00:33:20.680
conclusion that it is demonic, and some of them want
631
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:22.799
to fight it, and some of them want to weapon
632
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:23.480
exploit it.
633
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:25.759
And then this all gets very stranger things.
634
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:28.680
And then I just inject here that the drinking game
635
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.559
now switches to Tom Collins Elite, which is a regular
636
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:35.319
Tom Collins. That the ad who that's your call, that's
637
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:38.039
your abbadouri makes it green? Go for it, all right?
638
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.400
So oh there you go, all right, nice, Okay, that's fair.
639
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:45.119
But he basically spins this tale, which I used the
640
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:47.200
word spins a tale simply in the sense he produces
641
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:50.119
a narrative. I'm not actually putting a judgment on that.
642
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:53.839
That Jack Parsons, who is one of the co founders
643
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.359
of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, he was in the same
644
00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:01.200
social circles until things went sour with al Ron Hubbard,
645
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:03.559
which is why I brought him up at that point.
646
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.960
And he was a follower of Alistair Crowley and the
647
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:12.199
Ordy templar is it ordo templary orientalis the which again
648
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.599
I'm not the expert on this panel on but basically
649
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:18.519
Alister Crowley's kind of spin off from the Hermetic Order
650
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:21.519
of the Golden Dawn and blah blah blah. So the
651
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:23.599
one of the co founders of JPL in the forties
652
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:29.239
is also a hardcore interested in the esoteric occult scene
653
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:35.119
in California, and Redfern argues that near the end of
654
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:37.960
his life, because he blows himself up, he's he's he's
655
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.000
a major pioneer of rocketry in the United States. But
656
00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:43.079
near the end of his life he starts wanting to
657
00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:45.679
offer his services to the newly founded nation.
658
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:49.760
Of Israel, and he gives them a little too.
659
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.480
Much when he's making sort of his job proposal, too
660
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.199
much in terms of potentially classified information. So there is
661
00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:59.320
an investigation, and Redford in the book basically says the
662
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:04.199
group FBI and whoever then investigate him, go, wait, he's
663
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:07.840
hanging out with demon worshippers, and wait, he's doing all
664
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.679
these things and wait, and then they link this into
665
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:15.559
alleged UFO stuff, and this begins this sort of Delta
666
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:21.639
greenish kind of group in the government, and I have
667
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.719
thoughts about some of this history that I think is
668
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:29.280
not relevant to really get into. But that's basically what
669
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:32.440
Redford is suggesting. And then around the time of Ronald
670
00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:36.559
Reagan becoming president, this group changes its perspective in Redford's telling,
671
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:41.320
decides that things like abduction are demonic attacks, that in essence,
672
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:44.679
we are a farmed for demons eating our souls. Again,
673
00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:46.880
this is Redford and telling the story. He was adamantly
674
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:49.119
said we multiple times. He doesn't believe this. He just
675
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:51.000
says that he believes there's a group that says this,
676
00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:54.239
and that this group was at one point sort of
677
00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:57.920
plotting various things to try to defend the United States
678
00:35:57.920 --> 00:35:58.920
with spiritual warfare.
679
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:05.440
It's fascinating to me because I think when you look
680
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:08.159
at all these well, think of it this way. When
681
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:10.320
you look at government, I think most people think of
682
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:16.400
sort of a monolithic, long term thing, this organization, But
683
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:18.679
it's made up of people, and each one of these
684
00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:23.039
individuals has their own belief systems, and it's really easy
685
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:26.280
when you're thinking about these kind of stories to sort
686
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.679
of put your own spin on it. I mean, the
687
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:32.000
fact that you've got Ronald Reagan he represents to some
688
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:37.519
people this sort of ultimate, you know, macho American tough guy,
689
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:39.719
and then to other people we see him as a
690
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:44.760
sort of a befuddled old man who you know, relied
691
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.599
on astrologers to get his information. And there's so many
692
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:53.960
nuances to the individuals involved in these stories, but there's
693
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:58.440
such a rich, rich well of material to form your
694
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.840
own opinions on, it's it's really hard to kind of
695
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:04.800
pin down what's really going on. It reminds me of
696
00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:07.039
some of the better episodes of The X Files, where
697
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:08.840
you know, you think you know what's going on, and
698
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:10.519
then there's a twist, but what if it really means this?
699
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:12.400
And what if it really means that? And I don't
700
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:14.840
really know what it all means, but I'm more inclined
701
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:19.400
to think that, using sort of the same natural selection thing,
702
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:23.880
that what's really going on is we just get by.
703
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.599
Like the sort of bozos who sort of make these
704
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.280
decisions that sort of form our government, we just managed
705
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.239
to get by. Like the fact that we're still around
706
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:34.480
is kind of a remarkable because a lot of really
707
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:38.480
strange people with weird beliefs are really making things work well.
708
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.320
Given the events of this weekend. Yes, yeah, but that
709
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:46.840
we are all still alive is impressive. So Joe and Natasha,
710
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.000
you both mentioned that in the film this was the
711
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:52.039
first time you had really seen as you mentioned like
712
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:54.800
John Keel and Jacques Vallet, and I think for what
713
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:57.679
we're talking about, that's I think that's actually really important.
714
00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:59.960
Could you talk about that a little more like not
715
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.280
that's personally I ever seen them the first I ever
716
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.400
seen them in relation to these ideas.
717
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.000
Yeah. So, I mean usually when I see Christians talking
718
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:11.400
about UFOs, they they say that they're demons, kind of
719
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.920
just to get it out of the way. Yeah, So
720
00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:16.039
it's just kind of just like, don't pay attention to UFOs.
721
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:18.719
Those are just demons, And this was different. These were
722
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:22.079
two people guy I'm Alone and Joe Jordan who were
723
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.000
really part of the UFO culture and then it appears
724
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:29.280
that they became kind of born again afterwards.
725
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:30.000
And so interesting. Interesting.
726
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:32.719
It was kind of what in religious Sudy was something
727
00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:36.000
to called hybridity, right, where two differentations begin to resemble
728
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:36.480
each other.
729
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:39.280
I have literally edited volume and ran a conference on hybridity.
730
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:41.719
So it's a thing that I've up to the gills on.
731
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:43.760
Yes, but I.
732
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.679
See this a little bit as a as a case
733
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:51.960
study in hybridity, because the one of the narrators begins saying,
734
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:54.039
you know how annoyed he is when people like their
735
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:56.920
aliens say, oh, well, Jesus was really just an advanced alien,
736
00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:00.480
right who came to give us wisdom. And so I
737
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:02.840
see this kind of turning it around where the kind
738
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:07.480
of christianized youuthology weirdly mirrors groups that have been doing
739
00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:11.800
this youthologized Christianity, yes for a while, and it's a
740
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:16.119
kind of you got chocolate in my peanut butter, right, Well, yeah,
741
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:18.440
that's blending of ideas.
742
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.440
Heaven's State, Heaven's Gate was like that. They I mean,
743
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:26.199
they had their whole the luciferian actions of these aliens
744
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:33.840
versus the good level above human approach, right, So exactly.
745
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:37.280
But before before we go further, I would like to
746
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.920
mention that when you're talking about hybridity and you're talking
747
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:41.760
about aliens, I want to be clear we're not talking
748
00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:45.199
about alien hybrids, which is a different thing.
749
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.519
Well together, I mean, i'd be very curious here.
750
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:52.320
From my perspective, hybridity is basically it's as an archaeologist,
751
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.360
as a student of social this.
752
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:56.440
That and the other. It's a very valuable concept.
753
00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:59.039
All it's a contested concept that people have issues with it,
754
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:03.599
but basically a recognition, a recognizing.
755
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:05.480
Recognition, that's what I'm looking for that Uh.
756
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:09.039
So much of culture is actually made in the interstitial
757
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:13.159
spaces in between things. Uh and that you know, the
758
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.599
idea that, oh, there's a cultural norm over here. It's like, well,
759
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:18.719
in reality, a lot of things are mixed up. And
760
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:21.719
actually you understand the structures of society and the structures
761
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.840
of global society by looking at that mixing up. Is
762
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:26.679
that is that sort of what y'all are talking about.
763
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:31.519
Yeah, we used to use this term syncretism, yes, religious traditions,
764
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:33.960
and I decided, well, hybridy is better because that implies
765
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:37.039
a kind of agency that this doesn't just happen by accidents.
766
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:39.559
And you can really see that agency when you see
767
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.119
these Christians kind of reading John Keel and sort of
768
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:43.639
and often.
769
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:47.000
A subversive agency, often a subversion of existing concepts.
770
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:51.039
Right, So this kind of polemical reading of people like
771
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:53.880
Valet and Keel and sort of seeing what here is
772
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:55.519
useful to us and what are we going to have
773
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:58.000
to kind of sweep under the rug to make our arguments.
774
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:00.760
Well, the thing I find particular interesting. So you all
775
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:03.639
mentioned you know that they didn't mention Ezekiel, but you
776
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.679
all were like, but they should because they're pulling this
777
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:11.280
from ancient aliens or ancient astronauts or the term I
778
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:16.719
use in my book ancient extraterrestrials because no one's trademarked it.
779
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:21.880
But Ezekiel is always brought up there.
780
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.039
But as you all pointed out, you can't call that
781
00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:25.840
demonic if you're wanting to say this is all demonic,
782
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:28.159
blah blah blah. And I think what you're finding there
783
00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:30.159
and this is one of the beauties when you, for example,
784
00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:32.599
I look at material culture that's hybrid is when you
785
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:34.559
can find trace markers, when.
786
00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:36.000
You can find uh.
787
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:39.199
There's a term that we use that is on the
788
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:41.039
tip of my tongue, and I'll come back to it
789
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:42.119
when it when it pops in my head.
790
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:45.599
A brief interjection. The term Jeb was trying to remember
791
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.519
is skew morphism. He wrote me after the interview to
792
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:51.559
say that when elements transfer from a design and when
793
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:53.719
medium to a design and another, even though they aren't
794
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:58.079
purely functionally needed, that's skew morphism, things like attempts at
795
00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:01.199
preserving elements of a desktop are books or newspapers, et
796
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:04.440
cetera in a computer interface. There are tons of examples
797
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:08.199
in archaeology, including rivets on ceramics that were modeled after
798
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:11.559
midtal buckets. And we now return to the conversation.
799
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:22.440
When something survives in one material into another kind of medium.
800
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.920
And it's really bugging me. I can't think of it
801
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:30.280
right now, but you're seeing this here where you all expect, Ezekiel,
802
00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:32.960
it should be there if you're looking at things that
803
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:36.159
are reinterpreted from a UFO perspective, But you can't do
804
00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:40.199
it over over here for the reasons that you brought up.
805
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:41.719
And I think that's what's happening with.
806
00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:48.599
Keel So John keel He he's often depicted as a
807
00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:53.360
respectable reporter, like a journalist in the nineteen fifties and
808
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:58.599
sixties that then gets wrapped up in UFOs and weird.
809
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:00.639
Strology and so on.
810
00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:08.800
Around his most famous book, The Mothman Prophecies, involving the
811
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:12.639
incidents around nineteen sixty seven in Point Pleasant, West Virginia
812
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:14.039
that he writes the book, And I want to say
813
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:17.599
it's seventy five, where he was not the first person
814
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:23.679
to sort of para to pioneer this idea of a
815
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:27.320
sort of unified theeld theory that these things. He called
816
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.440
himself a demonologist, and he didn't mean that in a
817
00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:32.039
theological sense, but he sort of did.
818
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:36.440
That was clouded extensively in the film Oh really from
819
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:40.039
Operation Trojan Horse Ye, Yeah, which I am.
820
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.679
Literally reading right now. I had not read it before
821
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:45.440
and I'm reading it right now. I'd read some of
822
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.039
his other works in reality, keel if you read his
823
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:53.480
first book, Jadoo, which has not been easily found until recently,
824
00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:56.960
Like it's not lost, but it was not as you
825
00:43:56.960 --> 00:43:59.559
could find Operation chijan On as you could find the
826
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.440
mauthor prophecies. Good luck finding Jadu until we've now gotten
827
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:07.440
into the era of easy self publishing. He started looking
828
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:10.440
for magic. I mean you could pretty much just put
829
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:13.679
Max Weber in the index and index most pages. I mean,
830
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:17.039
he literally talks about the lost magic of the landscape
831
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:20.599
that is about to be swept away by industrial civilizations.
832
00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:23.079
So he goes to the Middle East and Egypt and
833
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:28.159
India to find it, and that's how he starts. So
834
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:31.840
the fact that he then pretty much in every one
835
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:36.480
of his works brings in this concept of finding magic
836
00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:40.039
in the landscape, finding spirits in the landscape, finding a
837
00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:45.079
sort of not anti science but extra science in the landscape.
838
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:48.079
Well it is anti science in places, is not surprising.
839
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:52.199
He then becomes the darling of sort of UFO intelligentsia,
840
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:56.119
him and Jacques Vala. And since Vala was brought in,
841
00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:58.559
do you all want to talk about, like who Jack
842
00:44:58.679 --> 00:44:59.559
Vale is or.
843
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:02.119
Was he is? He's still alive unlike John Keel.
844
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:04.760
Yeah, I know him as a UFU researcher, but he
845
00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:06.360
was also a it guy.
846
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:06.639
He was.
847
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:09.960
He started as an early like he's now a venture capital.
848
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:13.360
He started doing early statistics, early computer stuff. But I
849
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:18.079
want to say around sixty five, nineteen sixty five, he
850
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:23.039
decided to start applying his statistic statistical background to UFO sightings.
851
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:25.679
He came up with a few interesting things.
852
00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:28.719
And then two years later it was like, actually they're fairies.
853
00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:30.679
Wow. Yeah.
854
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:31.079
Yeah.
855
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:34.599
He writes the book called Passport to Magonia, which is
856
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:37.119
I think literally written one year after mothmant It's not
857
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:39.280
involved with Mothmam, but it's all in the same era
858
00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:43.199
and it's four years or five years before Mothmann prophecies
859
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:47.800
where he goes back and he reads tons of the
860
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:53.519
first Occupant UFO reports that are not obviously contact e Angelic.
861
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:55.400
So when he used the word contact d we're talking
862
00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:58.920
about basically since around nineteen fifty to fifty one, people,
863
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:03.480
many of whom who had a background in theosophical lodges
864
00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:10.000
other esoteric pursuits. They meet, often very white, Nordic tall
865
00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:11.960
These are names they give, and some of them were
866
00:46:12.199 --> 00:46:13.360
actually Nazi sympathizers.
867
00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:13.920
Others were not.
868
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:17.280
In the desert and say, oh, here's a new revelation.
869
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:19.559
But you start having in the middle of the nineteen
870
00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:23.000
fifties reports in France and then in South America, and
871
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:26.480
then in the United States and elsewhere people seeing little
872
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:29.760
people collecting flowers and doing weird things outside of flying
873
00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:32.519
saucers and then running away. Valet, in his book in
874
00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:39.079
nineteen sixty eight Passworamagonia catalogs these, analyze these and says
875
00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:44.320
these are almost the same, if not the same as
876
00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:47.960
and then he pulls out a huge amount of early modern,
877
00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:51.599
late medieval to early modern stories from Europe of fairies
878
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:54.599
involving people who are taken away by the fairies. This
879
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:57.039
is when inbduction is beginning to become a thing in uthology.
880
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:01.719
People that have missing weird time, have strange events and
881
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:04.800
so on. And Valet basically makes the argument, and this
882
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:07.239
is the sort of bedrock of what I call the
883
00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.920
puff the parami unified field theory these things, and Keel
884
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:14.920
makes the same argument, these things are normal to this planet.
885
00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:18.599
They are not from outer space in nineteen forty five
886
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:21.679
because we blew up nuclear bombs. They've been here forever.
887
00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:25.079
They're older than us, and they're strange and we don't
888
00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:28.760
understand them. Yeah, which then kind of fits demons, if
889
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:29.480
you want to go that way.
890
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:31.920
Yeah, it does. And also I think most people would
891
00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:36.679
know weirdly, they would know Valet through his proxy, which
892
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:40.880
was as Claude Lenc Lacomb And uh.
893
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:44.000
Yeah, there's some dispute whether that's really based on them
894
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:46.400
or not. But Valet was one of the people that
895
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:49.960
Spielberg was reading. Yeah, he created close encounters of the
896
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:52.519
third kind, right, and they used to get a Heinech
897
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:55.360
well and jail and Heinech, by the end of his
898
00:47:55.440 --> 00:48:00.239
life had basically come over to a parapsychological slash sort
899
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:02.599
of quasi cultish perspective on UFOs as well.
900
00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:03.960
To be honest, So, I.
901
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:06.679
Know we're going to keep talking about sort of is
902
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:09.360
you followg your religion. That's one of the is the
903
00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:13.679
ultratreustural hypothesis of religion. Your religious studies people, what's a religion?
904
00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:14.280
Wow?
905
00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:15.679
So when I teach so, when.
906
00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:19.280
I teach World Religions at Texas State, one of the
907
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.360
assignments I have my students do is to create a
908
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:25.159
definition of religion. They have to do it three times
909
00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:29.199
throughout the semester. And this is really be to kind
910
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:32.639
of demonstrate that there is no inherent definition to religion,
911
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:36.599
that we create working definitions based upon the data that
912
00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:41.400
we have. And so, and that's how I would answer it.
913
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.840
Well, the reason I ask is because I think over
914
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.960
the course of Monster Talk, I've talked to a lot
915
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:51.159
of different people about religion, because religion crosses into monsters
916
00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:54.000
in a lot of interesting ways. And one of the
917
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:58.960
things that seems, I guess in modern in modern times,
918
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.880
especially within Christianity, religion is about a faith that's what
919
00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:05.960
you believe. But that didn't seem like it was always
920
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.119
the case. Religion was sometimes what you do. It was
921
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:11.519
the actions you take and the sort of practices that
922
00:49:11.559 --> 00:49:13.559
you have, and maybe it's a hybrid of that.
923
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:17.760
But well, there's a one theoretical model thinking about religion
924
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.119
that says that there are religions that are more based
925
00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:23.360
on orthodoxy, so what you believe, and religion is more
926
00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:26.760
based on orthopraxy what you do, and this is how.
927
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.320
You determine who is in or not in the religion.
928
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:33.360
And I think that's a really interesting divide, a very
929
00:49:33.400 --> 00:49:35.480
interesting kind of theoretical tool that can be used to
930
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.960
think about religions. Another one that I was thinking about
931
00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:41.559
you guys are talking about this puffed theory, is the
932
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:44.320
idea of a sacred canopy. And this was made by
933
00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:45.760
sociologist Peter Berger.
934
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:53.239
That's a cannop pay, that's a canno pey, very different.
935
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:57.079
So the sacred canopy, and Joe can jump in if
936
00:49:57.119 --> 00:49:59.440
you can explain this a little bit better than I can.
937
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:03.360
But the sacred canopy is the idea that religion is
938
00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:06.000
a way to organize the world, that we are bombarded
939
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.800
by information all times, and that religion is a way
940
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:12.360
to kind of make categories and to put things in
941
00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:14.840
their place, and that you kind of exist under this
942
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:17.960
large sacred canopy, and that to be in a religion
943
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:20.599
is to say say, oh, I know where to put
944
00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:23.719
this new phenomenon. I just saw it goes into this category.
945
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:26.480
And so in many ways, the idea of puffed, I think,
946
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.519
is in some ways making a sacred canopy out of
947
00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:32.559
this saying that all of this data is actually interconnected
948
00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:33.280
and interwoven.
949
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:34.679
I don't know, I.
950
00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:36.480
Could definitely tell that disagree with me.
951
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:38.920
So maybe no, that was I thought that was That
952
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:41.519
was great, Natasha. So in religius studies, we know that
953
00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:43.840
religion as what we call a second order category, meaning
954
00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:46.039
it's not something that exists out in the world. It's
955
00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:48.760
something that we make up, and we decide what goes
956
00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:51.719
in the category and what doesn't. And there's not a
957
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:54.559
perfect definition of what gets lumped in the category and
958
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:57.280
what isn't. But one of the things I try to
959
00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:01.280
impress on my undergraduates is it's important that we are
960
00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:03.320
fair about what the rules are when we talk about
961
00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:05.199
what is or is not a religion, because there's something
962
00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:09.360
at stake. So in San Marcos, where Natasha and I teach,
963
00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:12.480
there was someone on the city council who, in retweets
964
00:51:12.519 --> 00:51:16.360
was saying that Harry Potter is a religion, and so
965
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:19.880
it is unconstitutional to have Harry Potter books in public schools.
966
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:23.280
But Islam is not a religion, and so Muslims do
967
00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:26.760
not have any constitutional rights. And so that's the kind
968
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:29.559
of gaming the system that goes on, which is why
969
00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:32.239
theories of religion are important. And to the credit of
970
00:51:32.519 --> 00:51:36.199
these filmmakers that Gary Bates is the filmmaker he actually says,
971
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:40.760
I define religion as having the following three characteristics, and
972
00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:43.320
he defines it in terms of answering questions, right, where
973
00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:45.280
do we come from, what are we're doing? What happens
974
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:48.079
when we die? So he is at least fair right
975
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:49.800
that he says, these are the rules of the game,
976
00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:51.960
and by these rules, ethology is a religion.
977
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:02.119
The reason I am because they treated within that film,
978
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:06.719
they treated religious eupology upology as though it were religion,
979
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:12.480
or it seemed to me that they did, and it
980
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:18.280
tied in so nicely with the Keel ultraterrestrial hypothesis. So Keel,
981
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.039
even though he viewed himself as a demonologist, I didn't
982
00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:22.800
get the feeling in any of the things I've read.
983
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:25.440
Of course, I still haven't read this Operation Trojan Horse yet.
984
00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:28.000
But I didn't get the feeling that he was necessarily
985
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:32.280
prescribing any sort of protection from these things. Oh god, no, yeah,
986
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:34.679
he was just saying, here or whatever this is, it's
987
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:35.559
not of this world.
988
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:39.599
So John Keel basically suggests we all are living in
989
00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:40.320
a horror novel.
990
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:41.519
Nice.
991
00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:44.440
Yeah, I mean he doesn't literally say that, but his
992
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:49.239
is a dark world of at best tricksters and at
993
00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:53.239
worst things that eat us spiritually or otherwise.
994
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:56.159
Oh that fits in nicely with the fairies, doesn't it. Yeah,
995
00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:57.960
the fair folk.
996
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:01.599
Yeah, yeah, No, that's his world. Yeah, yeah, he is.
997
00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:05.679
He has no where he the the in his world,
998
00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:07.800
Like if you read his Mothman prophecies, there's all these
999
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:11.559
contact ees, but the aliens or whatever the hell they are,
1000
00:53:11.599 --> 00:53:16.599
that they're he's they're talking to lie and lie in
1001
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:19.199
not good way. So, I mean, the the the famous
1002
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:21.440
beginning to end. Everybody forgets at the very beginning of
1003
00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:24.039
the movie. Not the movie the they did make a movie,
1004
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:26.760
which is interesting, but the beginning of the book of
1005
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:29.440
the Mothman Prophecies. He tells you, by the way, this
1006
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:32.639
is all about this bridge collapse which killed forty six
1007
00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:36.199
people and then he writes this amazing book. I'm not
1008
00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:39.119
saying it's true, but as a book it's really good.
1009
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:42.360
As the reason it's famous, it's creepy and at the
1010
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:44.880
end you've forgotten this. And then there's this bridge collapse,
1011
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:49.719
and all throughout he's having all of these people in
1012
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:52.039
his sort of network seuse he's going on the long
1013
00:53:52.119 --> 00:53:54.079
John Neble Show, which is sort of the predecessor to
1014
00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:56.440
Art bel which is the preecessor to George Norris, is
1015
00:53:56.440 --> 00:54:01.159
the predecessor to the entire History Channel, and and contact
1016
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:03.480
teaser saying this is gonna happen, This is gonna happen.
1017
00:54:03.480 --> 00:54:06.360
He's freaking out about there's gonna be some horrible disaster
1018
00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:09.039
and he's thinking it's a nuclear war or a giant
1019
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:11.599
power outage.
1020
00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:12.480
Yeah.
1021
00:54:12.519 --> 00:54:15.599
And then this bridge collapses in this town that he's
1022
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:18.519
been visiting for thirteen months. As he writes it, I
1023
00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:23.039
have seen letters, like original letters in point pleasant of
1024
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:26.079
John Keel. I don't know what he believed, but I
1025
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:28.840
mean there's literally scrawled in the sides of these type
1026
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:32.239
written letters to people, I think something's bad is going
1027
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:39.800
to happen. Like he's not entirely bullshitting people those letters.
1028
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:41.639
Too, and I believe Linda Scarborough.
1029
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:42.679
Yes, Yeahsoel, you would have.
1030
00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:45.480
Yes, I wrote a fantastic article on the whole point
1031
00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:46.639
pleasant Mothman stuff.
1032
00:54:47.119 --> 00:54:49.159
Yeah, but he he did tell her I think the
1033
00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:51.840
men in Black, which kind of emerged partly out of
1034
00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:57.000
the Mockman story or After your Baby kind of changeling
1035
00:54:57.039 --> 00:54:59.679
lore there, and he actually, I think if you hang
1036
00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:01.800
a go old cross up, this will help keep the
1037
00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:02.760
men in Black away.
1038
00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:05.719
So he did occasionally make those sorts of suggestions, but
1039
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:06.920
not as supplications.
1040
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.280
This was a letter to a friend basically.
1041
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:13.079
Right, Yeah, yeah, so yeah, but he is very in
1042
00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:15.599
this and I'd love to hear if you'd agree that.
1043
00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:19.079
I would see that Keel sees a sort of a
1044
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.199
demon haunted world. I mean, and when he says a demonologist,
1045
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:26.239
he doesn't mean that he's he's not suggesting that he's
1046
00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:31.679
he's the Warrens, He's not Earl of the Rain. He's
1047
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:34.559
not saying he's an actual demonologist. He's just basically saying
1048
00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:36.320
this is a demon haunted world. And that's what I've
1049
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:38.760
been studying for the last forty years. But he does
1050
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:40.199
mean it with that sort of.
1051
00:55:41.800 --> 00:55:42.159
Menace.
1052
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:46.639
Yeah, I will say, and the thing about this film,
1053
00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:50.599
I think groups like creation ministries and answers in Genesis
1054
00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:53.320
are very good at cherry picking right and finding people
1055
00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:56.440
who have authority on a particular topic and homing in
1056
00:55:56.480 --> 00:55:58.559
on the one quote that really makes their point and
1057
00:55:58.599 --> 00:56:01.159
sort of sweeping other things under the rug. Keel and
1058
00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:05.599
the Mackmann prophecies basically suggests that the ancient Israelites were
1059
00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:08.840
being tricked by the entities. Yeah, and that the Arc
1060
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:11.920
of the Covenant has these electrical powers because it's basically
1061
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:14.800
a machine the entities told them to build. Of course,
1062
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:16.880
none of that is going to show up in the
1063
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:21.039
Alien Intrusion movie. Keel's ideas are kind of held up
1064
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:24.440
as being sort of good research that leads us closer
1065
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:26.239
to the truth of what these entities are.
1066
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:28.760
Well, and that's the thing in reading and reading Nick
1067
00:56:28.840 --> 00:56:33.519
Redfern's Final Events like I again, because of the recent
1068
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:36.119
revelations about the DoD and more sort of thinking about
1069
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:39.119
and seeing who's involved, I'm like, you know, maybe he's
1070
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:42.880
describing an actual group of some kind and in sort
1071
00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:47.800
of their interaction with more parapsychological uri Gellar led how
1072
00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:52.199
puts off John Alexander groups inside the government. But the
1073
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:55.800
thing is, at one point, the sort of leap that
1074
00:56:55.880 --> 00:57:00.760
he suggests this Colins elite made only kind of makes sense,
1075
00:57:01.320 --> 00:57:04.320
like that, the fact that they would have seen Crowley
1076
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:09.880
and his contact with this spirit called Lamb, which is
1077
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:13.679
only in recent times been allegedly tied into gray aliens
1078
00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:14.320
and blah blah.
1079
00:57:14.519 --> 00:57:15.719
Basically, the point is.
1080
00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:19.159
Parts of it only makes sense if you actually know
1081
00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:22.960
your ufology stuff, and they have to sort of sand
1082
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:26.440
parts off to put it in here. But that's been done,
1083
00:57:26.599 --> 00:57:30.159
or allegedly been done. I have the page by the
1084
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:32.760
way for the alien intrusion thing up, and it is guy.
1085
00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:34.440
I'm alone, and I'm looking at the credits. I see
1086
00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:37.000
Nick Redfern, I see person in Johnny Hunt. I don't
1087
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:40.039
know who that is. The next one is Norio Hayakawa.
1088
00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:42.480
So did he showed up in the film?
1089
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:44.000
Yes?
1090
00:57:43.559 --> 00:57:46.400
Yes, what was his role in the film. I'm curious.
1091
00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:48.039
I have a reason for asking.
1092
00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:51.840
He was if I remember correctly, and I could verify
1093
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:54.119
this later, but I believe he was along the same
1094
00:57:54.159 --> 00:58:01.079
lines talking about the I remember if he explicit in
1095
00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:03.840
many religious comments, but he seemed to be paralleling the
1096
00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:07.519
comments from the guy from from Korea that that the
1097
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:10.639
whatever the physical explanation of aliens is that it's not
1098
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:15.280
thisly extraterstrial craft. Therefore it fits in with the demon hypothesis.
1099
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:18.360
I remember thinking during the film that he was like
1100
00:58:18.519 --> 00:58:22.840
the more reasonable gentleman. Yeah, he was a more reasonable
1101
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:24.760
reflection of the gentleman from South Korea.
1102
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:30.440
So Nori Ohayakawa's primary calling card within ufology, and I
1103
00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:33.199
think he's sort of backed off this a little, has been.
1104
00:58:33.559 --> 00:58:36.119
He was for a long time the primary purpose person
1105
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:41.000
interested in studying the Dulcet, the Dulcet legend.
1106
00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:43.480
Do you all know the Dulcet legend, that's.
1107
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:46.800
The secret military base beneath the Dulcei.
1108
00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:51.559
Yeah, the Archleda, the arschilda mountain mountain ridge in northwestern
1109
00:58:51.559 --> 00:58:55.440
New Mexico that is tied into Paul Benowitz, all these
1110
00:58:55.480 --> 00:59:00.760
other things. But basically, there's this legend that appears to
1111
00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:04.119
have been at least partly seated, potentially by a member
1112
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:07.360
of the Air Force in the nineteen eighties Richard Dodi
1113
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:12.480
into the euthological and that gets really complicated, but of
1114
00:59:12.679 --> 00:59:17.480
a horrifying underground and I'm just going to say, we've
1115
00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:21.519
been talking about religion and demons. Just listen to everything
1116
00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:26.440
I'm about to say. A horrifying underground base where there
1117
00:59:26.519 --> 00:59:31.599
are humans and aliens that have made a pact and
1118
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:33.639
they kidnap people and they.
1119
00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:36.599
Do horrible, horrible.
1120
00:59:36.440 --> 00:59:39.639
Experiments on large numbers of people. And this emerges in
1121
00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:45.880
the late seventies early eighties, and that literally Level six
1122
00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:50.159
is referred to as the Hell Level because of all
1123
00:59:50.199 --> 00:59:53.199
the terrible things that are done to people there. And
1124
00:59:53.239 --> 00:59:57.440
in reality, while the government made this pact, according to
1125
00:59:57.480 --> 01:00:02.440
the legend, everything went horribly wrong. The aliens double crossed them,
1126
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:05.280
and they've been there for far longer, and there's deeper,
1127
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:07.880
deeper levels that the human zone have access to, and
1128
01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:09.800
eventually they killed all the humans, or they were a
1129
01:00:09.800 --> 01:00:13.599
bunch of them killed in a firefight. And now it's this,
1130
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:18.039
it's pretty much hell under New Mexico. And so Dulcie
1131
01:00:18.079 --> 01:00:22.840
has become this very sort of infamous thing that most
1132
01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:25.639
ufologists don't think. There's necessarily a lot too, but it's
1133
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:29.599
a kind of beacon on what I believe Jerome Kart
1134
01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:33.880
called the dark Side, sort of theoretical approach to UFO
1135
01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:34.960
conspiracy theory.
1136
01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:37.519
The fact that they're talking to him is fascinating.
1137
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:42.760
And Christopher Partridge, who's a religion scholar, has us basically
1138
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:46.199
looking at how when this phenomenon begins in the fifties,
1139
01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:49.519
the aliens are very angelic. There are space brothers. I
1140
01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:53.280
think Carl Jung called them technological angels, and then by
1141
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:55.639
the period that you're talking about, it's the opposite, right,
1142
01:00:55.679 --> 01:01:00.320
They're demons, live underground, they torture people, and part I
1143
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:03.480
think kind of suggests that, you know, Christianity has just
1144
01:01:03.559 --> 01:01:06.840
permeated our culture so thoroughly that this is just sort
1145
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:09.119
of naturally the way that these legends are going to
1146
01:01:10.039 --> 01:01:10.760
take shape.
1147
01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:13.320
And I think he's not wrong.
1148
01:01:13.719 --> 01:01:15.639
I also, though, as we've sort of all been I
1149
01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:18.519
think kind of nosing around, I think that it's going
1150
01:01:18.559 --> 01:01:21.920
both ways. And I'm one of my favorite authors is
1151
01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:24.880
Michael Barkoon and his discussion of sort of forbidden knowledge
1152
01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:27.679
and the idea that once you have some ideas and
1153
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:30.519
kind of conspiracy culture and in the cultic milieu, they
1154
01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:33.079
all start to well, they start to hybridize, like we've
1155
01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:36.880
been talking about, and these ideas coming from people like
1156
01:01:37.159 --> 01:01:42.079
Keel and coming from people like Valet and Frankly, I'll
1157
01:01:42.119 --> 01:01:43.880
just drop this here because we know I was going
1158
01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:48.559
to go there, coming from their ancestors, people like Charles
1159
01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:52.960
Fok and people like the fiction writer HP Lovecraft of
1160
01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:59.519
a demon haunted ancient aliens world are influencing the other side.
1161
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:01.840
And I would say that the two are are sort
1162
01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:05.719
of influencing each other, which is how you end up
1163
01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:11.000
with Norio Hayakawa and Nick Redfern in a Christian apologetic
1164
01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:13.400
UFO demon documentary.
1165
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:15.079
Yeah.
1166
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:17.920
I mean, one thing that you know some theologians have
1167
01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:21.920
said about the kind of fundamentalists movement and its claims
1168
01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:25.320
that the Earth is five thousand years old and biblical
1169
01:02:25.320 --> 01:02:29.519
and errancy, which are both positions of creation ministries international,
1170
01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:34.039
is that this has kind of changed what Christianity is about. Right.
1171
01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:37.199
It's taken a text that has many meanings and it's
1172
01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:41.320
kind of actually said, well, really, this is about history
1173
01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:44.800
and cosmology and geology, and that's kind of the most
1174
01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:48.440
important thing to it. So while these movements present themselves
1175
01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:51.960
as being very conservative, they're actually it's something very new, right,
1176
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:54.039
that's a very new way of reading the Bible and
1177
01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:57.320
interpreting ms to say, And I think we're seeing something similar.
1178
01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:00.719
So just as the fundamental really begins in the beginning
1179
01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:04.039
of the twentieth century in response to Darwin, Yeah, and
1180
01:03:04.119 --> 01:03:06.639
so called Hierchrism of the Bible, and it sort of
1181
01:03:06.679 --> 01:03:09.760
makes this new form of Christianity that's very concerned with
1182
01:03:09.880 --> 01:03:12.559
kind of the discourse of science and the authority of science.
1183
01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:14.840
It didn't exist before, and we may be seeing a
1184
01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:17.079
similar move now right, Well, we're seeing this kind of
1185
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:20.480
new brand of Christianity that is about theories of the paranormal,
1186
01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:24.320
and it sort of begins to look increasingly like the
1187
01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:27.159
people that it is in dialogue with.
1188
01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:31.000
Yeah, and if you throw in into this conspiracy theory,
1189
01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:34.679
which is never far behind these topics, all of this
1190
01:03:34.840 --> 01:03:37.239
starts to get very political.
1191
01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:41.719
Also, well, yeah, that's there. I guess one of the
1192
01:03:41.760 --> 01:03:47.159
things that I am curious about is you've got this
1193
01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:50.119
is an easy way for sort of an evangelical foothold,
1194
01:03:50.440 --> 01:03:54.480
or at least an incursion into the ufology world. You know,
1195
01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:56.559
it's a big production. I mean, I don't know what
1196
01:03:56.599 --> 01:03:59.480
it costs exactly, but this was not a small thing,
1197
01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:05.440
and I don't know if it's going to have an
1198
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:07.719
effect because they didn't have people there. You know, I
1199
01:04:07.719 --> 01:04:09.800
didn't see John three to sixteen come up on screen,
1200
01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:12.039
you know, some of the classic sort of things. I
1201
01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:15.199
would have expected an evangelical conversion sort of approach I
1202
01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:17.840
didn't see. But what I did see was a straight
1203
01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:20.639
up hey, you know, if you're a Christian, you should
1204
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:23.440
be concerned about ufology. You should care because this is
1205
01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:27.480
the work of demons, right. So I don't know how
1206
01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:29.440
it works as outreach, but I am curious as to
1207
01:04:29.480 --> 01:04:32.719
how it works as far as latching itself into this mix,
1208
01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:37.000
because there's no orthodoxy here as far as that goes.
1209
01:04:37.320 --> 01:04:41.239
This is another example of I guess, using your term hybridism,
1210
01:04:41.480 --> 01:04:45.960
where you're taking something they're gloming into something that's not
1211
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:48.960
really a religion and trying to pick out the pieces
1212
01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:49.800
they like well.
1213
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:53.719
And Barkoon's term for that is improvisational apocalypticism.
1214
01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:54.719
Ooh, I like that.
1215
01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:58.719
Yeah. Yeah, So it didn't feel apocalyptic, but it definitely
1216
01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:02.639
felt like so it felt like a war, like I
1217
01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:04.159
don't know what the right word is for that, but
1218
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:06.960
it felt like this was a pitting us versus them,
1219
01:05:07.039 --> 01:05:07.760
whatever they are.
1220
01:05:09.079 --> 01:05:12.719
But it actually was unusual to me how not apocalyptic
1221
01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:16.079
it was. I assumed Christian's talking about UFOs is going
1222
01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:18.000
to be this is a sign of the end times, right,
1223
01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:20.719
you know, maybe left and I didn't see that. So
1224
01:05:21.079 --> 01:05:22.960
that does suggest this is something new.
1225
01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:25.519
And this could be again maybe Keel and people like
1226
01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:28.599
Keeld this is a permanent part of our reality kind
1227
01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:29.119
of effect.
1228
01:05:29.159 --> 01:05:29.599
Possibly.
1229
01:05:30.519 --> 01:05:33.239
I think you're right. Yeah, I think if they've accepted
1230
01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:35.320
Keel and Ballet enough to think that this is more
1231
01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:39.000
or less normal. This isn't some new dispensation that began
1232
01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:41.679
in nineteen forty seven signaling the end times. It's more
1233
01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:43.400
or less okay and normal.
1234
01:05:44.360 --> 01:05:48.360
So going back to my personal feelings on this is
1235
01:05:48.840 --> 01:05:53.400
I don't personally mind people trying to deal with what
1236
01:05:53.440 --> 01:05:56.280
I would suspect is sleep paralysis in a variety of ways.
1237
01:05:56.480 --> 01:05:59.719
If you have sleep paralysis problems in praying helps you
1238
01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:03.840
with it, great, you know, But I don't you know,
1239
01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:07.639
my personal experience was it wasn't effective. So I'd like
1240
01:06:07.679 --> 01:06:09.639
to see some clinical trials on that or something. I
1241
01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:11.760
just don't know. I mean, it's the kind of it's
1242
01:06:11.800 --> 01:06:13.599
kind of the the I think the harm here is
1243
01:06:13.639 --> 01:06:16.039
that if you tell people that, if they say, you know,
1244
01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:18.760
the name of Jesus Christ and it will drive away, uh,
1245
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:21.920
these alien invaders that are actually demons, and then it
1246
01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:25.320
doesn't work, then it becomes they They even threw in
1247
01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:28.840
the you know, real Christians versus the just wow walk
1248
01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:30.880
the walk versus talk the talk kind of people.
1249
01:06:31.079 --> 01:06:32.519
Well, the one thing I do want to add here
1250
01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:35.199
is that's been a that is not a new idea
1251
01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:37.440
like that has there has There has been for I
1252
01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:41.320
would say at least twenty years, this sort of dialogue
1253
01:06:41.360 --> 01:06:46.840
within the kind of abductee community that oh the author
1254
01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:48.920
so they'll point at you know, there was at one
1255
01:06:48.920 --> 01:06:51.599
point the sort of the trifecta of abductee rights. There
1256
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:54.119
were others, but there was there was John Mack, the
1257
01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:57.440
Harvard psychologist.
1258
01:06:57.599 --> 01:06:59.239
Oh god, I'm forgetting to say Bud.
1259
01:06:59.119 --> 01:07:01.239
Hopkins, but how because yep, they were both in there,
1260
01:07:01.760 --> 01:07:05.480
and David Jacobs. Now, David Jacobs is one of those
1261
01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:08.480
three that's still alive and he's talked about hybrid invasions.
1262
01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:13.480
Bud Hopkins was sort of your X files like medical
1263
01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:17.519
experimentation aliens, and John Mack was more they're here to
1264
01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:20.719
warn us about ecological disaster. But there was always this
1265
01:07:20.840 --> 01:07:25.519
undercurrent within the abduction community that if you said the
1266
01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:27.960
Lord's prayer or if you invoke Jesus.
1267
01:07:27.639 --> 01:07:28.760
It would end this.
1268
01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:31.599
And this is not new, and there was always the
1269
01:07:31.639 --> 01:07:35.239
idea that the abduction people are not talking about this,
1270
01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:36.519
So this was the dirty secret.
1271
01:07:38.079 --> 01:07:40.159
I never could get it to work, but I you know,
1272
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:41.400
that was just my experience.
1273
01:07:42.679 --> 01:07:46.840
Well, we do know that Bud Hopkins would hypnotize people
1274
01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:49.320
and sometimes they would recall details that he thought just
1275
01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:51.480
didn't fit and so just delete them.
1276
01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:52.840
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
1277
01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:56.519
Apparently this element was one that all three of them,
1278
01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:59.880
allegedly and again this is something I've heard were.
1279
01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:02.039
Like, let's not talk about that. Let's not talk about
1280
01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:04.719
that at all. Yeah. And if you go back to.
1281
01:08:04.760 --> 01:08:07.639
Was it Betty Andreasen who's often considered the second or
1282
01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:10.519
third kind of on the record alien that ductee in
1283
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:14.679
American culture, her visions or whatever you want to call
1284
01:08:14.719 --> 01:08:20.960
them were fairly explicitly religious in nature, unlike say Betty
1285
01:08:20.960 --> 01:08:23.960
and Barney Hill, but hers were, and that goes back
1286
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:26.600
to the early seventies, late sixties, I think, late sixties
1287
01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:27.840
of the Betty andreas in case.
1288
01:08:28.520 --> 01:08:30.880
Joe Jordan's talking about the talk, the Talk versus walk
1289
01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:33.880
the Walk Christians was also interesting. There was this great
1290
01:08:33.880 --> 01:08:39.439
book called Paranormal America by the sociologists who at Baylor,
1291
01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:42.119
who crunts these numbers from the Baylor Religion Survey that
1292
01:08:42.199 --> 01:08:46.039
asked about paranormal topics, including aliens, and one thing they
1293
01:08:46.079 --> 01:08:49.800
found was that religious people are more likely to believe
1294
01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:55.720
in paranormal topics, but that regular church attendance correlates negatively. Right,
1295
01:08:55.800 --> 01:08:58.760
So the ideal person to report a paranormal experience would
1296
01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:02.319
be someone who's religion but doesn't attend church regularly. In
1297
01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:04.039
other words, a talk to talk, but not a walk
1298
01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:04.880
the walk Christian.
1299
01:09:05.119 --> 01:09:06.600
Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense.
1300
01:09:06.920 --> 01:09:09.039
Yeah, So I thought that was interesting that he was
1301
01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:10.720
finding that pattern as well.
1302
01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:11.560
Well.
1303
01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:13.800
I guess that makes me ask, then, So you've been
1304
01:09:13.840 --> 01:09:17.319
talking about like sort of hooks in and outreach. What
1305
01:09:17.439 --> 01:09:20.760
is the ultimate purpose from what you can tell of
1306
01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:21.399
this film.
1307
01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:22.039
Is it to.
1308
01:09:23.880 --> 01:09:26.920
Get people who are interested in UFOs? Is it to
1309
01:09:27.560 --> 01:09:32.479
explain to people why UFOs are demonic? What's this sort
1310
01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:35.479
of the purpose of this particular film familiar again from
1311
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:36.319
what you can tell.
1312
01:09:36.760 --> 01:09:39.079
Honestly, I think part of it is CMI had this
1313
01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:43.720
painful split with answers in Genesis. Answers in Genesis has
1314
01:09:43.760 --> 01:09:47.720
the Creation Museum, they have the Noah's Arc thing. I
1315
01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:50.800
think partly they just thought, we want market share, we
1316
01:09:50.840 --> 01:09:52.119
want something to compete, so.
1317
01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:53.880
They want to get into pop So they're seeing this
1318
01:09:53.880 --> 01:09:55.279
as sort of a pop culture outreach.
1319
01:09:55.600 --> 01:09:57.439
I think, yeah, more than anything, this was sort of
1320
01:09:57.520 --> 01:09:59.039
just this is a way to get on the map
1321
01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:01.720
and answers and and as can't do it, only we
1322
01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:03.840
can do it. We've got this, this book that people
1323
01:10:03.880 --> 01:10:07.319
are reading. Let's let's take a chance on this. I
1324
01:10:07.359 --> 01:10:09.359
also think this was an attempt to sort of be
1325
01:10:09.479 --> 01:10:14.640
the apostle to the sci fi geeks, particularly by having
1326
01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:17.800
the narrator emphasize as credentials as you know, being on
1327
01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:22.159
the show Smallville. So I think and they sort of thought,
1328
01:10:22.159 --> 01:10:25.359
this is another angle we can take towards discrediting the
1329
01:10:25.359 --> 01:10:28.399
Big Bang theory and evolution. Right, if we can get
1330
01:10:28.399 --> 01:10:30.359
you to think UFOs or demons, maybe we can get
1331
01:10:30.399 --> 01:10:34.000
you to think that these are false scientific theories as well.
1332
01:10:34.239 --> 01:10:34.399
Well.
1333
01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:36.720
I think, and going back to this idea of the
1334
01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:39.439
sacred canopy that we talked about before, I mean, this
1335
01:10:39.560 --> 01:10:44.640
is a way of like for CMIA, very demonstrably showing, look,
1336
01:10:44.800 --> 01:10:49.000
Christianity can explain this, and these people are now part
1337
01:10:49.039 --> 01:10:50.119
of our sacred canpy.
1338
01:10:50.680 --> 01:10:52.399
Aliens don't challenge us.
1339
01:10:52.439 --> 01:10:57.000
We had engulfed them into our idea, in our worldview.
1340
01:10:57.399 --> 01:11:00.680
And that very much fits with what I saw in
1341
01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:02.880
person with the alien resistance thing, like they were not
1342
01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:04.960
afraid to let these people in and talk. You know,
1343
01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:07.359
there's like, go ahead, We've got this copboard.
1344
01:11:14.239 --> 01:11:16.199
And I think at the end of the film, Gary
1345
01:11:16.199 --> 01:11:18.319
Bates says, and I think he was being very honest
1346
01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:20.920
about this. He says, it grieves me that people have
1347
01:11:21.079 --> 01:11:24.119
these these problems with aliens and they don't think to
1348
01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:26.479
come to the church, right, we are the ones who
1349
01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:28.760
should be equipped to help you if you're having this
1350
01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:31.159
kind of problem, and we need to sort of let
1351
01:11:31.199 --> 01:11:33.479
people know that we are the place you should go to.
1352
01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:35.680
Not I don't know what else he was thinking, the
1353
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:39.920
History Channel, paranormal websites, right, something something like that.
1354
01:11:41.479 --> 01:11:45.000
Again, that is an excellent insight, I think, because you
1355
01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:49.600
see a lot of the so we haven't mentioned, but
1356
01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:51.600
if you're interested in all the ancient alien stuff at all,
1357
01:11:51.680 --> 01:11:55.359
obviously go check out Jason Colovito's blog. But he is
1358
01:11:55.399 --> 01:12:00.359
documented really well that there is that often in many
1359
01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:03.800
times the Great Enemy sort of in the kind of
1360
01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:08.039
populist response to ancient alien stuff is not mainstream science.
1361
01:12:08.039 --> 01:12:09.399
I mean, they all kind of poo poo that, but
1362
01:12:09.399 --> 01:12:11.560
it's it's literally what we're talking about, sort of a
1363
01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:17.159
demonic or a religious conspiratorial mindset versus the same shann
1364
01:12:17.159 --> 01:12:20.000
alien's mindset. And I think the thing that really pointed
1365
01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:22.199
this out there was there was this film that many
1366
01:12:22.239 --> 01:12:24.359
of my students are actually very familiar with, the YouTube focused
1367
01:12:24.359 --> 01:12:27.319
film called Ancient Aliens Debunked, and it's gotten millions upon
1368
01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:31.079
millions of views. But it was coming from a religious perspective,
1369
01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:34.319
but it was not advertised as such until you watch
1370
01:12:34.359 --> 01:12:38.560
it and you realize it's invoking the deluge and giants.
1371
01:12:39.199 --> 01:12:42.319
But I think that actually really pointed out that in
1372
01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:47.159
many senses, the potential audience for both of those cells,
1373
01:12:47.319 --> 01:12:50.560
if you want to put it that way, are the
1374
01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:52.680
same people or potentially the same people.
1375
01:12:54.399 --> 01:12:54.960
Yeah.
1376
01:12:55.119 --> 01:12:59.720
That's and I think many many great arguments were made
1377
01:12:59.720 --> 01:13:03.039
in that video, But you're right, they most of it's.
1378
01:13:02.880 --> 01:13:05.399
Fine, yeah, until they're like, also, by the way, the
1379
01:13:05.399 --> 01:13:06.000
flood's real.
1380
01:13:06.279 --> 01:13:12.800
Yeah, right, So I'm I'm not envious, but I do
1381
01:13:12.880 --> 01:13:20.079
understand that the ultraterrestrial hypothesis is a perfectly rational way
1382
01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:23.520
to deal with the fact that there's no physical evidence
1383
01:13:23.560 --> 01:13:27.079
for the things that many people are experiencing, and it
1384
01:13:27.119 --> 01:13:29.640
can sort of explain away why we have no evidence
1385
01:13:29.640 --> 01:13:32.960
because these things are coming from another dimension and the
1386
01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:37.439
reality is that the skeptical alternative, which I've been calling
1387
01:13:37.520 --> 01:13:40.479
the nul terrestrial hypothesis, is there's nothing there. Everything that
1388
01:13:40.520 --> 01:13:44.760
we're having is people misunderstanding phenomena, misunderstanding things that they're seeing.
1389
01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:48.960
You know, it's problems of human perception, not problems of
1390
01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:51.479
things that we just don't understand right.
1391
01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:54.520
Or not even problems I would say features feature.
1392
01:13:55.600 --> 01:13:59.279
It's not as exciting, but it fits into a world
1393
01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:01.279
where you can actually test things and it comes out
1394
01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:01.840
you know.
1395
01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:05.159
On bound you I mean, if you believe you live
1396
01:14:05.159 --> 01:14:08.720
in a magical spirit in demon and trickster haunted world, Yeah,
1397
01:14:08.760 --> 01:14:12.560
there's a certain aspect of like again re enchantment.
1398
01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:12.920
Yeah.
1399
01:14:13.039 --> 01:14:16.399
No, it's very exciting and magical. I just don't think
1400
01:14:16.439 --> 01:14:19.960
it's real. So, but but I am concerned about its
1401
01:14:19.960 --> 01:14:22.279
market share in the in the in the psyche of
1402
01:14:22.560 --> 01:14:25.600
pop culture and what's I think maybe one of the
1403
01:14:25.640 --> 01:14:29.279
most ironic things is that if natural selection is real,
1404
01:14:29.279 --> 01:14:31.880
which I think it is, that the idea of sort
1405
01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:37.079
of Dawkins's mimetics means that what will end up coming
1406
01:14:37.079 --> 01:14:38.960
out of this will be the parts that people like
1407
01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:41.159
will stick and the parts that people don't want, and
1408
01:14:41.159 --> 01:14:44.239
you'll end up with a hybridization that will, in at
1409
01:14:44.359 --> 01:14:48.560
least somewhere become a new view of the role of
1410
01:14:48.600 --> 01:14:52.319
religion as ties into eupology. Maybe not new, but at
1411
01:14:52.359 --> 01:14:53.439
least it'll have evolved.
1412
01:14:53.520 --> 01:14:53.760
Right.
1413
01:14:53.880 --> 01:14:57.439
So what could be more bizarre and fitting than that
1414
01:14:57.439 --> 01:15:02.159
that the that the anti evolution people themselves are actually
1415
01:15:02.319 --> 01:15:06.000
demonstrably showing how ideas can evolve over time.
1416
01:15:07.039 --> 01:15:08.439
I don't know, I'm pretty sure.
1417
01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:11.000
I'm just gonna answer with I'm not sure it was demons,
1418
01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:12.800
but it was demons.
1419
01:15:14.600 --> 01:15:15.840
It's pretty much where I'm going there.
1420
01:15:16.039 --> 01:15:17.920
I notice we've been talking for like an hour and
1421
01:15:17.960 --> 01:15:20.119
fifteen minutes, and I do have to edit a little
1422
01:15:20.119 --> 01:15:21.920
bit out, but I do like to keep the episodes
1423
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:24.520
around sixty minutes. Is there anything you guys would like
1424
01:15:24.560 --> 01:15:27.880
to add that we haven't sort of naturally segued into.
1425
01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:30.079
I can't think of much.
1426
01:15:30.159 --> 01:15:32.600
I mean, this has been actually very informative for me.
1427
01:15:32.760 --> 01:15:37.319
I was mostly a bystander to this, and Joe tends
1428
01:15:37.359 --> 01:15:40.640
to drag me to all sorts of crazy things, and
1429
01:15:40.720 --> 01:15:43.199
so promised me there'd be a you know, pint of
1430
01:15:43.199 --> 01:15:44.119
beer afterwards.
1431
01:15:44.600 --> 01:15:46.960
I with him, that's the way to do it. I
1432
01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:48.680
did mine up front. I should have done it afterwards.
1433
01:15:48.680 --> 01:15:49.600
That would have been very smart.
1434
01:15:51.159 --> 01:15:53.079
Don't take your significant other to this film?
1435
01:15:53.560 --> 01:15:57.960
Yeah, yeah, no, I was so glad I took a
1436
01:15:57.960 --> 01:15:59.920
friend instead of a wife. Yeah no, but you know
1437
01:16:00.239 --> 01:16:00.920
good on YouTube.
1438
01:16:01.039 --> 01:16:01.239
Right.
1439
01:16:02.920 --> 01:16:05.159
If we had a movie theater in town, I might
1440
01:16:05.199 --> 01:16:06.800
have seen it, but I'd have to get in a
1441
01:16:06.840 --> 01:16:08.319
car in the snow, so I did not see it.
1442
01:16:08.439 --> 01:16:11.079
The only thing I would I would add to this
1443
01:16:11.600 --> 01:16:15.439
is I will try to watch this when it comes
1444
01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:17.439
to a place that I can actually see it, because
1445
01:16:17.479 --> 01:16:19.000
I am actually very very curious.
1446
01:16:19.359 --> 01:16:20.960
Yeah, I think you'll agree.
1447
01:16:20.960 --> 01:16:21.119
Though.
1448
01:16:21.119 --> 01:16:22.640
It should have been about thirty minutes shorter.
1449
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:25.680
So I think everything should be shorter when it comes
1450
01:16:25.680 --> 01:16:26.119
to media.
1451
01:16:26.239 --> 01:16:27.520
So it shorter.
1452
01:16:27.680 --> 01:16:29.960
It just kept going, Oh.
1453
01:16:30.479 --> 01:16:31.560
Is so bored.
1454
01:16:32.079 --> 01:16:34.560
Oh, I'm so sorry I've shart you going.
1455
01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:36.560
Though I'm highly selling it, I'm just saying and that's
1456
01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:37.119
probably fair.
1457
01:16:37.760 --> 01:16:40.359
Well, I'm one of those people who went to see
1458
01:16:40.359 --> 01:16:43.399
Expelled with Ben Stein, and so.
1459
01:16:43.119 --> 01:16:45.479
I've still never seen that. I do have something.
1460
01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:48.800
Positive to say about this movie. It didn't go full Hitler,
1461
01:16:48.840 --> 01:16:54.680
so good for them. Ben Stein's little film ended with
1462
01:16:54.720 --> 01:16:57.359
a giant Poe argument. I was like, oh, come on,
1463
01:16:57.800 --> 01:16:59.479
is that Poe or is that the O was Gudwins right?
1464
01:16:59.520 --> 01:17:04.079
Sorry? Guy, yeah, Godwin Godwin argument. So there was no
1465
01:17:04.159 --> 01:17:07.239
Nazi bell, there was no.
1466
01:17:07.039 --> 01:17:09.279
Relatively Nazi free so good for them.
1467
01:17:09.960 --> 01:17:11.199
Well then I don't know if they'll make it on
1468
01:17:11.239 --> 01:17:13.079
the History Well these days, I'll make it on History Channel.
1469
01:17:13.119 --> 01:17:14.119
Yeah, awesome.
1470
01:17:14.199 --> 01:17:16.079
Anyway, I want to thank you all for coming and
1471
01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:18.399
spending some time on Sunday evening, and I really appreciate
1472
01:17:18.439 --> 01:17:19.680
you guys coming back to talk to me.
1473
01:17:20.680 --> 01:17:22.359
Thank you, Thank you.
1474
01:17:22.520 --> 01:17:27.640
Now Monster, you've been listening to Monster Talk, the science
1475
01:17:27.640 --> 01:17:30.439
show about monsters. I'm Blake Smith, and you just heard
1476
01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:34.800
a roundtable discussion with religious studies experts Joe Laycock and
1477
01:17:34.880 --> 01:17:38.479
Natasha Michaels and archaeologist Jeb card As. We talked about
1478
01:17:38.479 --> 01:17:42.680
the connection between John Kill's ultraterrestrial hypothesis are the ut
1479
01:17:43.039 --> 01:17:47.079
H and the new film Alien Intrusion. A creationist film
1480
01:17:47.359 --> 01:17:51.720
tying evangelical Christianity into ufology. I do not know if
1481
01:17:51.760 --> 01:17:54.680
the UTCH is really gaining market share or if my
1482
01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:58.560
increasing recognition of it in paranormal literature is merely confirmation bias.
1483
01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:00.840
But it seems to be pop up more and more,
1484
01:18:00.960 --> 01:18:03.199
and perhaps someone with the time in academic training can
1485
01:18:03.239 --> 01:18:06.640
see if a literature survey supports my suspicion. What concerns
1486
01:18:06.680 --> 01:18:10.119
me is that the UTCH is unfalsifiable. We've talked about
1487
01:18:10.119 --> 01:18:13.079
this before, using Carl Popper's idea that in order for
1488
01:18:13.119 --> 01:18:15.399
an idea to be considered scientific, it needs to be
1489
01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:20.039
testable and falsifiable. The UTCH, by its very nature, is untestable.
1490
01:18:20.720 --> 01:18:23.439
It is the invisible magic dragon that Carl Sagan talked
1491
01:18:23.479 --> 01:18:26.399
about in his book The Demon Haunted World. As such,
1492
01:18:26.720 --> 01:18:29.920
I hope that serious enthusiasts of the paranormal and cryptozoological
1493
01:18:29.960 --> 01:18:32.520
will continue to reject it as the research that end
1494
01:18:32.600 --> 01:18:35.640
it truly is. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Monster
1495
01:18:35.720 --> 01:18:38.720
Talk theme music is by Peach Stealing Monkeys. Thank you
1496
01:18:38.840 --> 01:19:29.880
so much for listening. This has been a Monster House presentation.
1497
01:19:31.159 --> 01:19:34.039
I'm not responding to anything that's happening right now.
1498
01:19:36.439 --> 01:19:39.800
That's fantastic. Yeah, we're editing also all of what we
1499
01:19:39.880 --> 01:19:40.119
just talked.
1500
01:19:40.279 --> 01:19:41.079
Okay, great, got it.