4 Men Share How They Hit Rock Bottom (and got out) - Dr K, Joe Hudson & Connor Beaton - #1159

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People of the UK and Ireland, I'm coming to you live.
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Imagine that, me on stage in your city. Dublin is
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completely sold out, but everywhere else has got limited tickets left,
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and you can get yours now at chriswilliamson.live. This is
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a custom-built live show. I absolutely adore it. I've spent
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over a year working on it. So if you're a
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fan of everything Modern Wisdom, come and see me on
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stage this October around the UK and Ireland, chriswilliamson.live. This
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is kind of like my Super Bowl. I hope the
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people that are watching realize just how much heat is
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in the room because between you guys, you've been the
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basically top coaches or the SOS call to some of
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the best athletes, biggest musicians, CEOs in the world, plus
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probably a few tens of millions of normal people as well.
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It's a real Avengers assemble of personal growth. So thank
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you for being here. This is awesome. I've been looking
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forward to this. So there's an idea from Naval Ravikant
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where he says, the reason to win the game is
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to be free of it. So I wanted to talk
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about how personal people, especially men, can win the game.
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Let's say that I'm someone who wants to maximize everything,
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achieve as much as possible, pull all of the ambition
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out of myself that I can. I want to wrangle
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every bit of motivation, discipline, raw masculine, crush the world
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energy that I can. How do you guys come to
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even think about that? How should I achieve that?
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Okay, let's go.
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Y'all are looking at me.
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Yeah, so, you know, I was.
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Yesterday, you brought up this kind of idea that, okay,
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you climb to the top of the mountain, and then
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you kind of have to go back down, right? And
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so I'm sure that Joe and Connor probably have experienced
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all the same things. So there's one set of challenges
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when you're nothing in life. And then as you go
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through the process of becoming something, you arrive at a
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different set of challenges. So I work with so many
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people who have difficulty finding a partner because they're a nobody.
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And then once they become a somebody, then they have
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difficulty finding a partner who wants them as opposed to
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what they've become. So I think it's a really good framing.
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And my kind of overall take is actually like, so
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it's sort of a, so there are things that we
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do that are adaptive and then they become maladaptive. So
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that's the process of growing up. One of my mentors
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once told me, Growing up is abandoning what works over
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and over and over again because it worked back then.
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And unless you get rid of it, you're going to
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run into trouble. And I think the interesting thing about
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this framing of like climbing to the top of the
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mountain and then kind of having this different set of
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challenges is I think there's actually just one trajectory. The
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problem is that when we focus on certain things, right?
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So when we focus on willpower and discipline and all
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this kind of stuff, it actually creates problems in the future.
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So I think that there is a way when you
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kind of say like tunneling through the bottom, you know,
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like you can kind of bypass it all. So what
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I've kind of found is that there is a set
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of things that you can do to become materially very successful.
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But usually doing those things.
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Trying to win the game. Like the guy at the
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bottom doing nothing. Guy at the top. one something guy
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at the bottom transcended the game and then fuck the
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game through the middle.
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Yeah.
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So I'd say, I'd actually say that there's there's fuck
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the game is, is upward. So, so, cause I, I
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think that this is somewhat true. Like, so I, I,
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I'm sure these guys do too. I mean, I know
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they do, but you know, if you work with some
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very successful people, they have different challenges. They, they don't,
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they're not necessarily peace, peaceful. They're not necessarily contented. And
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then we, we think about this thing like, okay, if
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I don't have ambition, then how am I going to achieve?
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But then if you use ambition to achieve, then you're
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stuck with this programming, which is ambition oriented. And then
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you move the goalposts and then you want more and
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then you want more and it's never enough. And so
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I think like my take on this, and I'd love
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to hear what y'all think is like, yeah, this sort
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of works. But as we know, there's a problem that
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you end up with at the top that you then
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have to solve. And I actually think Fuck the game
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is the way to go. There's one basic way, and
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a simple example of this is people think that contentment
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is something that you get from the outside. Like, I'm hungry,
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I eat something, and then I'm content. But there's piles
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of spirituality, which have now been supported by piles of neuroscience,
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that contentment itself is a cultivatable skill. And that as
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you cultivate contentment, there are ways to motivate yourself that
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are not hunger. that are not ambition. And so I
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think a lot of times what we use is like
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toxic fuel to get to the top. And then we
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achieve what we want. And then we're kind of stuck
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in this like polluted environment. We've made all these kinds
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of sacrifices and we've programmed ourselves in a way that
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leaves us very unhappy. And I bet these, I mean,
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I already know But like, I'm sure if you listen
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to our personal stories, you will see some version of that.
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Everybody is at some point on this mountain.
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Absolutely.
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100%.
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Desperately trying to shout at people who are at base
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camp walking toward the mountain, like, no, no, go back.
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Fuck off.
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There's bodies on Everest. Yeah. There's bodies up there. Just littered, man.
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I mean, I do think that there's a bit of
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a quagmire that people experience when they're dealing with this,
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I want to win the game, right? Like, if you
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really want to win the game, replicate what so many
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other people have done to make the money, right, to
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get the Bugattis. But the problem that a lot of
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people have that I've seen is that they try and
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get to the top of the mountain by using what
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I call dark motivation or the toxic.
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Fuel, right?
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Shame-based motivation. And so they're in pain, they're suffering, they
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hate themselves, they don't like their lives. And that becomes
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the fuel for them to then say, I want out
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of here. And the problem is that it really works
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and it can really work well. but it doesn't often
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lead to the type of satisfaction and fulfillment that people
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are ultimately seeking. The reconciliation within of, well, not only
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do I want to have money, but I also actually
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want to like myself and I want to like my
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life and I want to like my partner and my kids.
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And so part of the challenge that people have to
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bump up against is what are you going to do
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with the accumulation of the pain that exists inside of
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you that is trying to drive you towards that perceived
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success that will alleviate you from the pain that you're
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carrying and experiencing.
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Not to just rely on naval ravikant for the entire
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direction of this fucking podcast but he also has a
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line which is it is far easier to achieve our
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material desires than to renounce them like if you feel
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unrequited the world hasn't recognized me i've always been a
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piece of shit or i've been the person that people
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have stepped on or ignored or whatever uh and i
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have all of this pain and i have all of
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this trauma and i want to become something is it
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not quicker to go up and over the mountain than
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to go straight through it?
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Not in my experience.
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I think you can do some pretty amazing things, but
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it usually requires some pretty severe hardships. Like the guys that,
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and I was one of those guys, I'm like, let's
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go to the top. And then the guys that I
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worked with, it's let's go to the top. And usually
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when men come to work with me, they're up at
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the top. And then they're like, oh shit, this wasn't
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what I thought it was going to be. I still
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hate myself. I still feel like a piece of shit.
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I can't enjoy the money that I've made. Oh, I
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won the award and it feels hollow and empty. And
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I went home that night and got super stoned and
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drank myself to sleep because I still feel hollow inside.
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And so I don't know if it's about quickness. It's
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about how are you going to transmute the suffering that
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you're life that you are carrying inside of yourself to
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alchemize it into something more meaningful for you and hopefully
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for the world. That's the function of what initiation was
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always supposed to be, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
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What do you think about all that?
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Well, so I have a, like a slightly different trajectory.
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And so my top of the mountain was like spiritual awakening.
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So I dedicated to that early and just like from
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20 years old, I just like, that was the top
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of my mountain, which was its own hell. Like it,
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like there was, there's the hell of like trying to
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make a shit ton of money and being a winner
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that way. This was its own particular hell. So that
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just to say that my perspective is a little bit
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different on it. Um, I think that the, the, the
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couple of things that I see in there is that the,
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you asked the questions like, how do you work with it?
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The number one thing is if you're looking at the mountain,
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asking yourself what it is actually that's going to work
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at that point, what is it that I actually really want?
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And ask not just like, whatever your answer is, let's
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say it's money and say, okay, cool.
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If I have money, is it done?
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We're finished. And then if that's not it, no, I
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also want something else.
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Okay. Is that done? Are you finished then?
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And keep on asking that question to find actually what
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the core of the thing that you want is. I
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think a lot of people start charging up that mountain
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because they were told to want it, because they thought
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to want it, not because they actually really like deeply
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looked at, is this the thing that I want at
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my core? The second thing I think is really useful
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is usually people go for the thing that they see
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as possible. And they often think the thing that they
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really want is impossible because So I don't know how
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many billionaires I worked with that are like, yeah, we
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could make, you know, AGI or we can make a
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$ 10 billion market cap company, but like actually having a
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happy company.
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No, that's not possible.
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Or have a happy marriage. Maybe that's not possible or
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having happy kids. That's not possible.
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Something that actually feels much more within reach, much less extraordinary.
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Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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So, so really look at the things in your mind
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that you're telling yourself aren't possible and really take a
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deep dive into the, like, what makes that so like
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really take a look at it. So I think that
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that is like the best thing to do if you're
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like looking up the mountain is not to decide whether
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you're going up or whether you're going through. It's to
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ask yourself, what is it that I actually most deeply
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want here? And really spend time with that question. My
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experience is that question in itself will drive you through
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the mountain instead of up and over the mountain.
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I think it's also missing, like the image is missing
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something because for me, there was no ascension of the mountain.
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It was just bouncing off the bottom. And I think
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that that's for a lot of young men, especially in
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today's culture and climate, they don't even feel like they're
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climbing the mountain. They feel like, oh, I can't even
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get to base camp. I'm just constantly life, relationships, whatever
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it is, I'm just bouncing off the bottom. And for me,
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that was my case.
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I was just lost. I wasn't particularly good at.
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Anything and ended up bottoming out in my late 20s
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and having a kind of rock bottom moment that then
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put me at that place at the base of the mountain.
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That asked me that question.
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And so I think, I think it kind of depends
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on the man and the individual and where they are,
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you know, it's like, do they even need to, they
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need to get to the base of the mountain? Do
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they need to get to that place where they can
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even ask themselves that question?
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So, I mean, how many, how many guys use that
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rock bottom moment to either be crushed by or propelled
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by it? I have to assume that a lot of
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you guys have been on the receiving end or maybe
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being the men yourselves. get the call the sos call
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of like okay this is like this is it this
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is me peering over the abyss moment uh what the
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fuck do i do like i don't even know how
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to get started so yeah i think both of those things.
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That's the most exciting moment yeah i was i was
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gonna so it's so interesting because i hear my thoughts
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coming out in two different ways yeah so so you
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know one of the things that's really scary is is
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i mean i work with some people who are pretty
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successful but 60% of people that I've worked with have
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not been able to afford a dime. And so I
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work with a lot of like regular, like basically losers.
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And I own that term. It used to be what
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I was, arguably still am. And one of the scary
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things I hear about these stories, right? So I think
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all three of us, there's the spiritual hell, there's the
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hitting rock bottom, failing out of college, take your pick.
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One of the scary things is.
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Were you on Love Island? You win. Really?
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You didn't know this?
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I didn't know this.
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Oh, God, I've derailed everything. Season one.
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They're reversing right at the gates.
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Islander won season one, first person through the door.
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I think we should, at some point in this conversation,
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really just actually try to have the competition for the
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lowest low between the four of us.
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I was just thinking, I would... I would love to
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hear everybody's stories.
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Like, I mean, I know them.
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If everyone's comfortable, I'm happy to fucking play that.
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Yeah, can I talk about Rock Bottom for a second?
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So here's the scary thing. So when I work with people,
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we hear things like this, right? Like you hit Rock Bottom.
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And then one of the things, really scary things that
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I see is a romantization of Rock Bottom. People that
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I work with, they long for that final crash of,
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That will break them like we're talking abhorrent suicidality or
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everything that they are on the outside that is weak
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will be sloughed away and a phoenix will rise from
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the ashes. And they long for this thing. And this
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is the really scary thing about rock bottom. Rock bottom
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doesn't exist. Rock bottom is just the lowest point that
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you happen to go before you turn around.
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Oh yeah, rock bottom can have a basement and in
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the basement there can be a trap.
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You can go lower and you can go lower and
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you can go lower, right? So for people who are like,
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hear these stories, and I think we all see the
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value of rock bottom and I think we're going to
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hear about that, but rock bottom is the moment that
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you decide to turn around. It is not this like
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artificial thing that one day, oh, if I fuck up
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my life more and if I fuck it up more,
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one day I will hit that rock bottom and then
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I'm going to roll the dice and I will be
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a god or I will be broken. And so they
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wait for that day. There's this longing for it, this
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hunger that like, oh, like I want to be tested. Right.
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And if I if I fall apart, I fall apart.
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That's fine.
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And in doing so, they actually fuck themselves because that
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day will never come. And what rock bottom is and
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I know this is why I wanted to get this
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out before we hear the stories we're going to my
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00:14:46.779 --> 00:14:49.750
my prediction is we're going to hear this. From Love
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00:14:49.830 --> 00:14:54.350
Island 2, right? There's one day that you decide rock
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bottom is a choice, not a place.
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But I do think it speaks to the cultural absence
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of any type of initiatory process for people to test
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themselves emotionally, spiritually, psychologically. And in the absence of that,
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the psyche and ultimately the identity and our sense of
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self still longs for that. So I agree 100%. I
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00:15:16.860 --> 00:15:20.090
do think that it is it is a choice point of,
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and that's what I say to guys a lot. It's like,
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you don't have to keep going down and keep sabotaging down.
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At some point you just have to take a choice.
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You have to make a choice to say, I'm going
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to start like, this is it.
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This is ultimately it.
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And I think sometimes people are waiting for that choice
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to be made for them. And that's, that's part of
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the challenge.
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You know, it's part of the challenge.
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It's like, well, maybe some external force will make this decision.
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Maybe if it gets bad enough, then I'll just magically stop.
328
00:15:52.029 --> 00:15:55.190
And it's like, no, no, you'll stop when you choose to.
329
00:15:55.350 --> 00:15:57.850
You'll shift when you choose to, when you've really, it's
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00:15:57.870 --> 00:16:00.169
like the story of the dog on the porch, right?
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00:16:00.190 --> 00:16:01.860
Where it's like, there's an old man sitting on the
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porch with his dog and the mailman comes to deliver
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00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:06.779
the mail every single day. And every day the mailman
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00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.299
shows up and the dog is whimpering and whimpering and whimpering.
335
00:16:09.340 --> 00:16:13.009
And finally the mailman says, why is the dog, So like,
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00:16:13.049 --> 00:16:15.070
it seems like the dog is in pain. And the
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00:16:15.149 --> 00:16:16.830
old man on the porch says, yeah, the dog's been
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00:16:16.850 --> 00:16:20.070
laying on a nail. And the mailman's like, well, why
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00:16:20.110 --> 00:16:21.750
doesn't he move? And he's like, I guess he'll move
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when it gets painful enough.
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And he decides. And I think that for most people,
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they're sitting on the nail.
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00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:31.100
And that was me to a T, you know, it's like,
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00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.820
I just didn't want to address the things that were
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00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:37.710
causing me to sabotage and spiral and pull me down.
346
00:16:37.830 --> 00:16:43.529
So There's a nuance. I think there's wisdom absolutely in
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00:16:43.610 --> 00:16:45.649
what both of you are saying. There's this weird nuance
348
00:16:45.769 --> 00:16:48.149
and it's the word choice.
349
00:16:48.649 --> 00:16:49.169
I was going to.
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00:16:49.429 --> 00:16:49.769
Yeah.
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00:16:49.929 --> 00:16:52.240
On some level, there's like a choice and it feels
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like a choice. The other thing that I think people,
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00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.139
when you do hit rock bottom and you have that experience,
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00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.879
your identity gets cracked.
355
00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:03.179
Yeah. Who you think you are changes.
356
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.920
Yeah. And there's a choicelessness in that as well. So
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00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:11.200
there's a bit of grace that occurs. And so as
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00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:13.660
there is a way in which you can, this is
359
00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:16.049
really geeking out, right? But as there is a way
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00:17:16.069 --> 00:17:18.769
that you can say there is no rock bottom, there's
361
00:17:18.789 --> 00:17:23.029
also a way of saying there is a choicelessness of
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00:17:23.069 --> 00:17:25.269
hitting that rock bottom. And I think the thing that
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00:17:25.309 --> 00:17:31.240
gets missed in all of it is the I'm responsible,
364
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:35.380
I'm responsible, I'm responsible, I'm responsible, is often slows down
365
00:17:35.420 --> 00:17:36.150
the process.
366
00:17:36.549 --> 00:17:39.549
As opposed to what? Who is responsible if you're not responsible?
367
00:17:40.109 --> 00:17:42.269
Yeah, that's a good one.
368
00:17:42.369 --> 00:17:44.349
So if I, I'm excited.
369
00:17:44.390 --> 00:17:46.390
I'm looking at the cross-legged, I'm looking at the cross-leggy
370
00:17:46.430 --> 00:17:47.670
side of the table over there.
371
00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:52.819
Okay, so, so, so many thoughts and I can't, I,
372
00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:57.559
here's what, my first experience of stepping into this room
373
00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:58.789
was in intimidation.
374
00:17:58.809 --> 00:17:59.269
Hmm.
375
00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:05.180
My next experience was sort of feeling camaraderie. And now
376
00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:07.740
what I'm feeling is that there is something that I
377
00:18:07.819 --> 00:18:12.829
know that I don't know how to share. There is
378
00:18:12.869 --> 00:18:15.509
like an, the answer is on this table. I feel,
379
00:18:15.710 --> 00:18:19.049
I feel this very strongly, this not to crack, like
380
00:18:19.069 --> 00:18:21.430
the answer is here, but I actually don't think that
381
00:18:21.630 --> 00:18:25.200
any of us can give it by ourselves. And what
382
00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:27.440
I heard from, from you, Connor is like, you know,
383
00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:29.000
you have to make the choice. And I, I kind
384
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:30.390
of said this, right? You have to, You have to
385
00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:32.559
turn– think like the rock bottom is the moment that
386
00:18:32.619 --> 00:18:35.460
you decide to come up. And then you were saying, yeah,
387
00:18:35.500 --> 00:18:37.880
you have to make a choice. And then my first question,
388
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:42.690
how the fuck do you make that choice? And I
389
00:18:42.750 --> 00:18:44.930
hear what Joe is saying because the really scary thing
390
00:18:44.970 --> 00:18:46.650
about this, what I– I mean this thing I think
391
00:18:46.710 --> 00:18:49.059
is like sort of– even rock bottom I think is
392
00:18:49.220 --> 00:18:49.750
on the way up.
393
00:18:51.579 --> 00:18:55.369
Yeah, that's why earlier I said, I'm excited when somebody
394
00:18:55.450 --> 00:18:58.630
has that call because you've already done some of the work.
395
00:18:58.650 --> 00:18:59.450
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
396
00:18:59.690 --> 00:19:03.869
So there's this weird, like, I think that the diagram
397
00:19:03.930 --> 00:19:06.589
makes sense, but my sense is like, this is something
398
00:19:06.609 --> 00:19:07.910
that we don't talk about and I don't know how
399
00:19:07.930 --> 00:19:11.250
to explain. Like, my answer is karma. Like, my answer
400
00:19:11.309 --> 00:19:15.019
is like, this is meant to happen. And that doesn't
401
00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:16.680
mean we can get into like destiny and stuff. I
402
00:19:16.700 --> 00:19:19.799
don't mean destiny, but I'll maybe share a little bit
403
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.299
about So I have a question that I'll toss out
404
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:23.680
and then you guys decide if we want to get
405
00:19:23.700 --> 00:19:26.849
to biographies or not. But, you know, how does that
406
00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:31.230
choice get made? Right. What is that catalyzing factor? Because
407
00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:34.309
when I think about my job, my job is like
408
00:19:34.529 --> 00:19:35.470
people come into my.
409
00:19:35.410 --> 00:19:37.430
Office and I'm sure y'all's is basically the same.
410
00:19:38.049 --> 00:19:41.329
Right. And it's like, how do we get this choice
411
00:19:41.390 --> 00:19:43.990
to happen? And there's a part of me that even
412
00:19:44.650 --> 00:19:48.390
recoils against the word quicker because I think quicker is
413
00:19:48.549 --> 00:19:51.740
feeding into the problem. that is going to cause you
414
00:19:51.819 --> 00:19:53.099
dissatisfaction at the top.
415
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:53.740
Right.
416
00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:57.640
Just like the, you have to choose it also can
417
00:19:58.019 --> 00:19:59.029
cause you problems at the top.
418
00:19:59.039 --> 00:19:59.299
Exactly.
419
00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:00.960
Because what's going to happen is if you say, okay,
420
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:02.980
you have to make the choice, right? So a thousand
421
00:20:03.029 --> 00:20:05.210
people are going to wake up tomorrow and they're going
422
00:20:05.230 --> 00:20:07.509
to say, rock bottom is when I make the choice
423
00:20:07.609 --> 00:20:09.190
and they're not able to make the choice.
424
00:20:09.809 --> 00:20:11.069
I guess I haven't hit rock bottom yet.
425
00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:14.279
Well, or or we're telling them.
426
00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:14.480
Right.
427
00:20:14.500 --> 00:20:18.039
So they listen and they say how and then they're
428
00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:20.880
not able to make that choice. And then they feel
429
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.240
even worse about themselves because rock bottom is the moment
430
00:20:24.289 --> 00:20:26.569
that you make a choice. And look at me, me fucker.
431
00:20:26.690 --> 00:20:29.829
I can't do it. Other people are doing it, but
432
00:20:29.930 --> 00:20:32.799
I can't do it. What's wrong with me? And so
433
00:20:32.859 --> 00:20:35.619
I get the choice thing. I mean, and so there's
434
00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:38.339
something here that we're all circling around the drain and
435
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:39.720
I'm hoping that we can get.
436
00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:43.089
Is there a better framing than making a choice at
437
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:44.809
rock bottom? Is there some other way of looking?
438
00:20:44.829 --> 00:20:46.829
If I give a stab at the answer to the question,
439
00:20:46.869 --> 00:20:50.670
like what is it besides choice?
440
00:20:51.910 --> 00:20:53.650
To me, it's self-awareness.
441
00:20:54.349 --> 00:20:59.259
If you understand yourself enough... Just like if I am
442
00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:02.460
looking at a watch that's broken and I'm like, oh, how,
443
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.730
let me understand the watch. Let me understand the watch.
444
00:21:04.789 --> 00:21:06.470
At some point, I'm going to understand it enough where
445
00:21:06.529 --> 00:21:08.750
fixing it is going to be obvious. The thing that's
446
00:21:08.769 --> 00:21:11.529
going to happen is going to be obvious. I can
447
00:21:11.549 --> 00:21:15.210
only say that that worked for me and other people,
448
00:21:15.309 --> 00:21:18.849
but I suspect there's other ways too. But my experience
449
00:21:18.910 --> 00:21:22.309
is when people start really recognizing how their mind works,
450
00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:25.980
what self-abuse pattern looks like. That looking for the bottom
451
00:21:26.019 --> 00:21:29.529
is just another way of having self-abuse. Telling myself I
452
00:21:29.549 --> 00:21:32.309
have to have choice is just another form of self-abuse.
453
00:21:32.329 --> 00:21:35.490
When they start recognizing the self-abuse and the results of
454
00:21:35.529 --> 00:21:41.960
that self-abuse, my experience is then grace, surrender, something happens
455
00:21:42.019 --> 00:21:45.299
where it's beyond them because the same way it's just
456
00:21:45.339 --> 00:21:47.619
like that click that happens in your mind and you're like, oh,
457
00:21:47.980 --> 00:21:48.960
this is how you fix the watch.
458
00:21:49.940 --> 00:21:51.180
That's my experience of it.
459
00:21:51.769 --> 00:21:53.890
A quick aside, you've probably heard me talk about Element before,
460
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480
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I think in a way, my, I'll speak for myself,
481
00:22:54.539 --> 00:22:57.480
my personal experience of it in some ways was a
482
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:02.660
surrendering to the truth of my existence and a surrendering,
483
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:06.079
a choosing to surrender to like, wow, this is really true.
484
00:23:06.819 --> 00:23:09.200
You know, I am doing these things or I do
485
00:23:09.269 --> 00:23:12.869
feel this way or I have been acting in this way. And,
486
00:23:12.890 --> 00:23:21.990
and an And I think also an allowing of life, source, God, universe,
487
00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:24.920
whatever frame you want to put on it, to have
488
00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:30.539
more of an influence in my life. There's this saying,
489
00:23:30.579 --> 00:23:33.880
life is making me happen. Instead of I'm making my
490
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.220
life happen and all the choices are on me, I
491
00:23:36.259 --> 00:23:39.769
think that oftentimes trauma, abuse, being lost, those types of
492
00:23:39.809 --> 00:23:44.130
things move us into a mistrust of life. and into a,
493
00:23:44.309 --> 00:23:46.589
I'm going to try and control life. And so I
494
00:23:46.609 --> 00:23:49.170
think part of the place that we reach is I'm
495
00:23:49.210 --> 00:23:52.430
going to surrender to life is having an influence on me.
496
00:23:52.890 --> 00:23:55.680
And I'm going to surrender to the truth of my existence,
497
00:23:55.720 --> 00:24:00.059
of how I feel and what's happening. And instead of
498
00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:03.579
staying in the narration and the story of.
499
00:24:04.099 --> 00:24:06.099
Well, here's what I think about it. And here's how
500
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:07.619
I feel about it. Here's what I should be doing.
501
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:09.619
And I can't do that. And I should do this.
502
00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:11.250
And what the fuck's wrong with me for not doing
503
00:24:11.289 --> 00:24:14.930
it this way? Instead of just sinking into, this is true.
504
00:24:15.349 --> 00:24:17.730
This is true. Without story, without judgment, without, it's just like,
505
00:24:17.750 --> 00:24:18.349
this is true.
506
00:24:18.369 --> 00:24:22.089
This is your frame around no problem. Yeah.
507
00:24:22.109 --> 00:24:22.309
Right.
508
00:24:22.329 --> 00:24:25.039
And this is your frame around, and that's okay.
509
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:25.430
Yeah.
510
00:24:25.970 --> 00:24:28.900
Um, which is fucking beautiful. The same duality that you
511
00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:30.980
guys have got in your own practice when I've done
512
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:34.819
stuff with you guys, it's like this letting go.
513
00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:38.460
And when I hear him say, see what is, accept
514
00:24:38.500 --> 00:24:42.980
what is. It's just another way of saying self-awareness to
515
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:47.640
different ways. And it's very cool to hear how what
516
00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:51.750
I just said could be interpreted X amount of ways,
517
00:24:52.369 --> 00:24:54.349
but the Venn diagram of what you said and I
518
00:24:54.390 --> 00:24:55.849
said reduces that.
519
00:24:56.170 --> 00:24:57.789
Oh, that's cool. And then the way he says it
520
00:24:57.849 --> 00:24:58.119
reduces it.
521
00:24:58.130 --> 00:25:01.599
The territory becomes smaller because they're- Iron sharpening iron.
522
00:25:01.690 --> 00:25:02.359
Which is really cool.
523
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:05.480
Does anyone want to throw a rock bottom story into
524
00:25:05.500 --> 00:25:07.200
the mix and whether anyone's not?
525
00:25:08.210 --> 00:25:11.849
Love Island, bro. Let's go. Or Peaking.
526
00:25:11.869 --> 00:25:15.619
Was that Peaking? No, absolutely not Peaking. I can certainly
527
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:19.880
give you the, I guess, like the Love Island rock
528
00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:24.329
bottom story, at least that one, which was, uh, it's
529
00:25:24.349 --> 00:25:26.670
kind of the champions league world cup final right of
530
00:25:26.869 --> 00:25:29.250
being a professional party boy especially in the uk which
531
00:25:29.309 --> 00:25:33.609
is very small and the ways that you can extricate
532
00:25:33.650 --> 00:25:38.329
yourself from this highly dense very competitive very classist system
533
00:25:38.650 --> 00:25:41.450
are limited you know the us is four percent of
534
00:25:41.470 --> 00:25:44.509
the world's population but produces 50 of its millionaires last
535
00:25:44.529 --> 00:25:48.619
year right the uk is not even on the the
536
00:25:48.690 --> 00:25:51.440
league um And so I go and do this thing.
537
00:25:51.500 --> 00:25:53.259
I have this opportunity to go and like be the
538
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.740
guy finally. And even the way that I got on
539
00:25:57.269 --> 00:25:58.950
was done in the way that the rest of my
540
00:25:58.990 --> 00:26:02.890
life was constructed, which was I'd already done one thing previously,
541
00:26:03.009 --> 00:26:06.730
made myself very useful to the casting producers that were
542
00:26:06.750 --> 00:26:09.390
a part of ITV generally, the company at Channel 3
543
00:26:09.390 --> 00:26:11.670
in the UK that was producing the show. And I'd
544
00:26:11.710 --> 00:26:14.630
helped them. I'd found them new people for other shows
545
00:26:14.650 --> 00:26:16.190
that they were going on. I'd advised them all of
546
00:26:16.210 --> 00:26:18.650
the different nightclubs to go to. They wanted Geordies. They
547
00:26:18.670 --> 00:26:20.839
wanted Newcastle kids because it was a big show. Our
548
00:26:20.859 --> 00:26:23.799
equivalent of Jersey Shore was ripping at that time. So
549
00:26:23.819 --> 00:26:26.119
I'm like finding them all like cool people because I
550
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.019
know everybody that parties around town. So I know the
551
00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:30.160
most degenerate or the most outgoing or the cleverest or
552
00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:31.680
the whatever. So I've done all of this stuff. And
553
00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:33.609
then it's my, they're like, hey, we're going to give you,
554
00:26:33.619 --> 00:26:35.019
do you want to come and screen test for this thing?
555
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:36.309
Just come and see me. Come and hang out. We
556
00:26:36.329 --> 00:26:37.589
haven't talked for ages. Why don't you just come and
557
00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:39.210
do the thing? And before I knew it, I'm like
558
00:26:39.390 --> 00:26:42.210
on a plane on my way to fucking Palma, Mallorca.
559
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.329
with a chaperone, and I do this thing, I have
560
00:26:46.369 --> 00:26:50.690
this experience, surrounded by people that were the person I
561
00:26:50.789 --> 00:26:53.869
thought I was. I thought I was this very extroverted
562
00:26:53.930 --> 00:26:57.130
lad around town, party boy, biggest name on campus, B-knock,
563
00:26:57.430 --> 00:27:01.130
biggest name on campus guy. And the thing when you
564
00:27:01.150 --> 00:27:03.230
go and do a show like that is because it's
565
00:27:03.259 --> 00:27:06.059
filmed 24 hours a day, what is captured up until
566
00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:09.420
2 a.m. gets produced and published and broadcast at 7 p.m.
567
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.319
the next night, and it's just this permanent treadmill of
568
00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:15.509
of constant like ambient surveillance, but there's no distraction. There's
569
00:27:15.529 --> 00:27:18.170
no phone, there's no TV, there's no YouTube, there's no books,
570
00:27:18.190 --> 00:27:21.430
there's no friends, there's no nothing. So it is what
571
00:27:22.069 --> 00:27:23.970
I later sort of came to reflect on as a
572
00:27:24.029 --> 00:27:28.059
fatal dose of contrast. It was me coming up against
573
00:27:28.220 --> 00:27:34.920
the projection of me embodied in 11 other people were
574
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:37.539
living in the house with me. And there's half the
575
00:27:37.579 --> 00:27:39.259
number of beds as there are people. So you sleep
576
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:40.779
with a different girl every night or you sleep with
577
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:44.319
the same girl all of the time. And then I left.
578
00:27:45.109 --> 00:27:48.250
And it was a surprise eviction that they were doing
579
00:27:48.430 --> 00:27:50.809
to like spice things up or whatever. So you didn't
580
00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:54.009
have the time to sort of say your goodbyes that
581
00:27:54.029 --> 00:27:55.490
maybe some of the other guys did. So it's kind
582
00:27:55.509 --> 00:27:57.509
of a little bit of a chaotic situation. And I
583
00:27:57.509 --> 00:27:58.970
don't know whether you guys know, but the south coast
584
00:27:58.990 --> 00:28:00.650
of Mallorca, which is where Palmer is, is one of
585
00:28:00.670 --> 00:28:03.460
the best night sky viewing spots in the world. It's
586
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:05.829
got one of the clearest skies that you can. And
587
00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:08.230
we finish up and we get taken off to this
588
00:28:08.309 --> 00:28:11.369
couple's hotel, like a sandals resort type thing, which is
589
00:28:11.670 --> 00:28:13.890
where they must've just been able to find some lodging
590
00:28:13.990 --> 00:28:15.990
to like ship the people out. You still can't be
591
00:28:16.009 --> 00:28:17.619
seen by the press. You can't be seen by anyone.
592
00:28:17.630 --> 00:28:19.660
So you're completely contained in this whole thing. And it's
593
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:21.900
been this whirlwind trip and I've like lived it. I
594
00:28:21.940 --> 00:28:23.779
had this media lockdown week for a week before I
595
00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:25.240
went in and then I've been on TV and like,
596
00:28:25.490 --> 00:28:27.170
I read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. So I was
597
00:28:27.210 --> 00:28:30.029
in a fucking like psychedelic fugue state for the entirety
598
00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:31.150
of the time that I was on there. It's a
599
00:28:31.170 --> 00:28:32.549
bad idea. It'd be a piece of advice to anyone
600
00:28:32.569 --> 00:28:34.990
going on reality TV. Do not read The Alchemist by
601
00:28:35.029 --> 00:28:36.309
Paulo Coelho before you go on.
602
00:28:36.569 --> 00:28:39.170
I think that's the best advice, most applicable advice that
603
00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:40.119
anyone's going to get.
604
00:28:40.299 --> 00:28:44.680
Because I'm in fucking like south coast of Spain and
605
00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:47.980
I'm thinking to myself, I'm like Santiago. I'm just like,
606
00:28:48.019 --> 00:28:49.960
I mean, I'm in Spain and I'm taking my shepherd
607
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:52.140
on this trip and I'm seeing the sunrise. And I've
608
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.640
got no distraction. I'm like, just like, swimming in the
609
00:28:54.700 --> 00:28:58.309
first book I've read fully for something that wasn't university
610
00:28:58.569 --> 00:29:02.769
in a decade. It was very chaotic. Anyway, so I
611
00:29:02.789 --> 00:29:06.190
get shipped away, taken off with more of a chaperone.
612
00:29:06.430 --> 00:29:09.410
We get deposited at this couple's hotel. We had a
613
00:29:10.009 --> 00:29:12.470
drink limit because they realized that people would get way
614
00:29:12.509 --> 00:29:14.559
too leery and it would be kind of messy. They
615
00:29:14.579 --> 00:29:17.259
wanted more of a fluffy, family-friendly kind of show. They
616
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:18.960
didn't want people to be pissed and fighting and stuff
617
00:29:18.980 --> 00:29:22.029
like that. And I'm given, we had stubby beers, like
618
00:29:22.029 --> 00:29:25.190
330 mil, smaller than a new tonic, 330 mil beers
619
00:29:25.509 --> 00:29:27.019
for the entirety of the time that we were there.
620
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:28.799
And I got out and I was given a 500
621
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:30.680
mil beer. And like, you spend the whole day in
622
00:29:30.700 --> 00:29:32.339
the sun. There is a bit of you that's, especially
623
00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:35.220
if you're around like chicks in bikinis, you're like, fucking
624
00:29:35.269 --> 00:29:37.369
give me a beer, dude. You know, I don't even smoke,
625
00:29:37.390 --> 00:29:38.569
but I was like, I'll rip a cig. Like it
626
00:29:38.589 --> 00:29:41.380
just isn't, I don't know. There's some primal part of
627
00:29:41.390 --> 00:29:43.380
you that's like, oh, he's going to do stuff. Um,
628
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:46.519
so I get a tall beer and finally for the
629
00:29:46.539 --> 00:29:49.859
first time in over a month now, including the media lockdown,
630
00:29:50.180 --> 00:29:53.099
I'm on my own. And I have this moment of
631
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.720
no surveillance, no microphone around my neck, which you needed
632
00:29:55.740 --> 00:29:57.339
to put on, even if you were going to the
633
00:29:57.380 --> 00:30:00.119
bathroom in case you said something interesting or whatever. no
634
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:03.269
surveillance and no one with me. And I like sort
635
00:30:03.309 --> 00:30:05.650
of dumped all my stuff into this room and walked
636
00:30:05.809 --> 00:30:07.849
out and looked up at the sky and I've never
637
00:30:07.869 --> 00:30:09.490
seen it before. And I hope that I get to
638
00:30:09.509 --> 00:30:14.750
see it again. The full Milky Way galaxy just like
639
00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:19.910
someone had taken luminescent glitter and thrown it across the
640
00:30:19.930 --> 00:30:22.170
sky from end to fucking end because this sort of
641
00:30:22.230 --> 00:30:26.230
couple's hotel is middle of nowhere with lights all turned
642
00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:27.910
off at night and sort of huts and all that
643
00:30:27.930 --> 00:30:30.190
you can hear are crickets, like that classic sort of
644
00:30:30.289 --> 00:30:34.069
Spanish sound, very quiet except for just the chirping of crickets.
645
00:30:34.509 --> 00:30:36.329
And I looked up and I saw this thing and
646
00:30:36.430 --> 00:30:38.390
it was almost like the universe was laughing at me.
647
00:30:38.829 --> 00:30:41.950
It was almost like after this chaotic thing and reading
648
00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:43.910
the book and I'm Santiago and going through all this
649
00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:45.569
stuff and what the fuck, I thought that I was
650
00:30:45.609 --> 00:30:47.509
the person that was supposed to be the person that's
651
00:30:47.549 --> 00:30:49.809
supposed to be here. Fuck, I'm not. All of these
652
00:30:49.849 --> 00:30:51.730
people are the person I thought I was and that
653
00:30:51.750 --> 00:30:53.450
means who the fuck am I? And like, oh my God.
654
00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:55.440
Am I having an exit? I'm this is, this is
655
00:30:55.460 --> 00:30:57.380
where it happened. This is classic me. I'm having an
656
00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.519
existential crisis in the middle of fucking love Island. Like
657
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:02.220
that is just the most Chris Williamson thing that could ever. Oh,
658
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:04.410
and there's the fucking Milky way. There's the first time
659
00:31:04.430 --> 00:31:06.410
I've ever seen it as a person that loves astronomy
660
00:31:06.789 --> 00:31:09.970
and like is obsessed with the stars and fucking interstellar
661
00:31:09.990 --> 00:31:11.750
had come out like only a couple of months before.
662
00:31:11.789 --> 00:31:13.309
So I was still obsessed with that. And I'm Matthew
663
00:31:13.329 --> 00:31:16.019
McConaughey now fuck Santiago. And all of this stuff had
664
00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:20.190
happened and that it wasn't a, and I, I, especially
665
00:31:20.210 --> 00:31:22.890
with my health journey, I've become very skeptical of acute
666
00:31:23.109 --> 00:31:27.339
solutions to chronic problems. Um, but in retrospect, you look
667
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.160
back and you go, Oh, there was something about that.
668
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.960
I haven't, what's that line about? Um, life has to
669
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.539
be lived forward, but only makes sense in reverse. Um,
670
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.119
I have yet to find a clouds parted. And at
671
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:43.670
that moment I knew It's much closer to the clouds parted.
672
00:31:43.789 --> 00:31:46.309
And in retrospect, I knew that at that moment, I
673
00:31:46.369 --> 00:31:49.430
knew something closer to that, if that makes sense. Anyway,
674
00:31:49.529 --> 00:31:51.109
I looked up and saw the Milky Way and it
675
00:31:51.130 --> 00:31:53.009
was just, I can still see it now. It was
676
00:31:53.109 --> 00:31:57.430
so fucking sick. And it ran completely sort of whatever
677
00:31:57.450 --> 00:31:59.470
that is perpendicular to the way I was looking. So
678
00:31:59.490 --> 00:32:02.150
just as if someone had painted it on the fucking
679
00:32:02.190 --> 00:32:04.039
ceiling and it was the sickest thing. And I went
680
00:32:04.099 --> 00:32:07.200
home and I was like, okay, between the book. And
681
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:10.660
the existential crisis and the Milky Way, it feels like
682
00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:13.759
I need to do some more self-investigation. And that was
683
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:20.740
me at 27, 27. And shortly after that, I do
684
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:23.130
six months sober for the first time. Not that I
685
00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:25.390
ever had a particularly big problem with alcohol, but I
686
00:32:25.410 --> 00:32:27.170
was a party boy. So I'd drink every two weeks,
687
00:32:27.210 --> 00:32:31.769
but very heavily. And then start meditating and start doing
688
00:32:31.809 --> 00:32:34.009
breath work and really take things seriously. And it's the
689
00:32:34.089 --> 00:32:37.869
same coalescent time that Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris and
690
00:32:37.950 --> 00:32:40.210
Alain de Botton from the school of life are coming online.
691
00:32:40.250 --> 00:32:41.829
And like, I'm listening to more Rogan and I get
692
00:32:41.849 --> 00:32:44.400
introduced to Naval Ravikant and like all of this stuff
693
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:46.420
starts happening at the same time that sort of pushes
694
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.420
me in this, in, in this direction toward paying more
695
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.299
attention to myself and being so more self-investigatory. Um, so yeah,
696
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:57.690
is love Island a strange way to talk about rock bottom? Yeah,
697
00:32:57.789 --> 00:33:00.369
I suppose. But from an existential standpoint, like it really
698
00:33:00.410 --> 00:33:02.210
fucking felt like it, it was like, Oh, you have
699
00:33:02.529 --> 00:33:05.529
constructed your entire identity around being someone that you're not.
700
00:33:06.109 --> 00:33:09.670
And this is about as like about as magnificent and
701
00:33:09.730 --> 00:33:13.529
certainly about as public of a way to experience an
702
00:33:13.569 --> 00:33:17.289
existential crisis. So that's my pull the pin on the
703
00:33:17.329 --> 00:33:19.210
grenade and throw that one into the beautiful.
704
00:33:19.430 --> 00:33:19.829
Cool. Yeah.
705
00:33:20.769 --> 00:33:21.750
Thank you for sharing that, man.
706
00:33:21.930 --> 00:33:23.029
Yeah.
707
00:33:23.130 --> 00:33:25.789
Yeah. Thank you. It strikes me the identity being such
708
00:33:25.849 --> 00:33:26.950
a critical part. Yeah.
709
00:33:27.490 --> 00:33:28.339
Yeah.
710
00:33:28.819 --> 00:33:28.970
Yeah.
711
00:33:29.490 --> 00:33:31.190
And the collapse with the projections.
712
00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:31.890
And the collapse.
713
00:33:31.990 --> 00:33:33.779
Right? Just having the mirror so.
714
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:35.400
Inescapable.
715
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:36.079
Harshly.
716
00:33:36.740 --> 00:33:40.740
Literally inescapable. And with different accents and different sizes and
717
00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:42.660
different shapes all running up to me and going like,
718
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:43.980
what's going on? Do you want to talk about this?
719
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.460
Do you know that I mugged that bird off last night?
720
00:33:46.940 --> 00:33:47.980
Mugged that bird off.
721
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:51.599
Mugged that bird off last night. She's butters. Fucking hell, mate.
722
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:56.390
It's good. I mean, Brock Bottoms.
723
00:33:57.130 --> 00:33:59.829
I mean, if I look at my life, there's... several
724
00:33:59.950 --> 00:34:02.970
places where that happened, like getting kicked out of college.
725
00:34:03.630 --> 00:34:04.849
But I think the one that... Nice to meet you.
726
00:34:05.029 --> 00:34:05.430
Yeah.
727
00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:11.989
Pretty good brother.
728
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:14.659
The kicked out college is a good story, but I
729
00:34:14.659 --> 00:34:17.260
don't think it's the one for this. I think the
730
00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:23.960
rock bottom for me was I meet my wife through
731
00:34:23.980 --> 00:34:27.769
like a set of Unbelievable circumstances. Like over and over again,
732
00:34:27.789 --> 00:34:29.949
we're thrown together. It's like so clear that we're supposed
733
00:34:29.969 --> 00:34:34.719
to be together. We get engaged really quickly. And then
734
00:34:35.059 --> 00:34:37.280
we actually have to learn to live with each other.
735
00:34:37.300 --> 00:34:41.619
And there is a moment where I'm like spending a
736
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:45.360
lot of my time meditating in this house and on
737
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:49.460
200 acres outside of Ukiah. And so like basically my
738
00:34:49.539 --> 00:34:52.940
pastime is fighting abusively with my wife, meaning like we
739
00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:55.750
are being abusive to each other. And there was literally
740
00:34:55.789 --> 00:34:58.369
a moment where she's like has a Miata and she's
741
00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:00.920
like revving her engine, threatening to run me over. And
742
00:35:00.940 --> 00:35:03.579
I'm standing over her front of her thing with a pitchfork.
743
00:35:04.460 --> 00:35:07.760
I think that was like the, the rock bottom of,
744
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:14.079
of whoever I think I am, like valedictorian of the
745
00:35:14.099 --> 00:35:16.969
college I didn't get kicked out of, or, you know,
746
00:35:17.449 --> 00:35:20.230
really successful in the stock market at the time, or
747
00:35:20.250 --> 00:35:27.949
this meditator or guy who's like, really understands like personal development.
748
00:35:28.010 --> 00:35:29.949
And I, I mean, I'm like 27 or something. I
749
00:35:29.989 --> 00:35:34.880
knew nothing, but all those identities like collapsed in that moment.
750
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:37.880
There was just that moment of like, no, this is
751
00:35:37.940 --> 00:35:38.940
what's happening.
752
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:40.400
This is my reality.
753
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:44.340
My reality is that like, I have learned how to
754
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:49.179
be with a love in this way from my parents.
755
00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:51.800
This is all I know. And I'm repeating the pattern.
756
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:53.719
And so whatever it is, I think I know whatever,
757
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:57.570
however cool I think I am, However, like wise or
758
00:35:57.670 --> 00:35:59.409
successful I think I am.
759
00:36:00.269 --> 00:36:03.329
No, this is actually my reality right here.
760
00:36:03.409 --> 00:36:08.369
And it was that moment when, you know, there's that
761
00:36:08.409 --> 00:36:10.590
famous thing where if you're pointing at somebody, three fingers
762
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.639
are pointing back at you. There was like, oh, I'm
763
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.400
not focused on what she's doing anymore. I'm only focused
764
00:36:16.460 --> 00:36:19.519
on myself. Like whatever that allowed this to occur, I'm
765
00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:23.760
solely focused there. That wasn't always perfect, obviously, but it
766
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:25.280
was absolutely changed that.
767
00:36:26.260 --> 00:36:28.239
And then the other.
768
00:36:28.099 --> 00:36:32.590
Thing that occurred was there's no amount of meditating that's
769
00:36:32.610 --> 00:36:37.269
going to solve this. This doesn't get solved through meditation.
770
00:36:38.130 --> 00:36:40.969
This gets solved some other way. And so I'm going
771
00:36:40.989 --> 00:36:44.429
to find that other way. And so that started the
772
00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:48.559
deep investigation of things like Hoffman process and trauma work
773
00:36:48.659 --> 00:36:49.659
and somatic work.
774
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:54.980
How old were you? 26, 27 years old. Yeah.
775
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:58.449
And so, and this was a succession of fights, but
776
00:36:58.489 --> 00:37:01.010
it was that moment that was like so fucking clear.
777
00:37:01.050 --> 00:37:03.059
Like, this is what my life wielding a pitch for.
778
00:37:03.079 --> 00:37:06.860
Yeah. And, and again, threatened to be run over. Don't
779
00:37:07.139 --> 00:37:11.300
bring a pitchfork to a car fight. She had the
780
00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:11.900
better weapon.
781
00:37:12.300 --> 00:37:14.780
And if you met Tara, she would use it.
782
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:16.050
Oh yeah, of course.
783
00:37:16.219 --> 00:37:19.530
I really just am picturing you in like jean overalls
784
00:37:19.590 --> 00:37:23.070
with no shirt on and a fucking Mazda Miata about
785
00:37:23.090 --> 00:37:24.610
to hit you and you've got your pitchfork.
786
00:37:25.179 --> 00:37:27.340
I'm like, there's a painting in your future, Joe, that
787
00:37:27.389 --> 00:37:29.260
I'm going to send you. And it's going to be that.
788
00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:31.460
That's funny. It was brutal.
789
00:37:31.659 --> 00:37:36.639
I was picturing you in monk's robes. Meditating your way
790
00:37:36.699 --> 00:37:39.699
out of life. And then like one of these like warrior.
791
00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:42.920
Monks from like some Chinese monastery who's like master of
792
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:43.539
the pitchfork.
793
00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:48.679
Yeah, I think that was like the lowest point was
794
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:52.559
just that recognition of like, whatever I think I am,
795
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:57.030
I am surely fucking not. And whatever ideas that I
796
00:37:57.070 --> 00:37:58.929
have that I've read from these books are done from
797
00:37:58.969 --> 00:38:04.130
meditation retreats. That's also not like I have to, I
798
00:38:04.170 --> 00:38:07.730
have to like go down to the base and find
799
00:38:07.789 --> 00:38:08.730
out what's actually true.
800
00:38:10.230 --> 00:38:12.489
In other news, have you ever noticed how some websites
801
00:38:12.550 --> 00:38:16.030
make it ridiculously easy to buy while some feel infinitely harder?
802
00:38:16.389 --> 00:38:18.380
Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles
803
00:38:18.409 --> 00:38:21.199
to the local store. Aren't you younger than me? Yeah,
804
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:22.340
but my dad got a DUI.
805
00:38:24.179 --> 00:38:24.420
Anyway.
806
00:38:24.849 --> 00:38:27.929
The reality is most businesses just get the website wrong.
807
00:38:28.010 --> 00:38:30.599
And if your setup is messy, you lose a ton
808
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:33.219
of sales, which is why I'm such a massive fan
809
00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:37.400
of Shopify. They power 10% of all e-commerce in the
810
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:41.920
United States, including brands like Gymshark, Skims, Allo, and Nutanix.
811
00:38:42.179 --> 00:38:44.800
Because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they
812
00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:46.920
are best in class. Their checkout's 36% better on average.
813
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:50.460
compared to other platforms. And with ShopPay, you can boost
814
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:53.869
conversions by 50%. So upgrade your business and get the
815
00:38:53.909 --> 00:38:56.429
exact same checkout that we use at Newtonic with Shopify.
816
00:38:56.530 --> 00:38:58.570
You can sign up for a free trial period by
817
00:38:58.610 --> 00:39:00.760
going to the link in the description below or heading
818
00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:05.739
to shopify.com slash modern wisdom. That's shopify.com slash modern wisdom.
819
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:07.579
Yeah, so I have.
820
00:39:08.730 --> 00:39:10.429
Some thoughts and some questions.
821
00:39:10.730 --> 00:39:12.429
Do we vote at the end to figure out who
822
00:39:12.449 --> 00:39:14.139
hit the worst?
823
00:39:14.219 --> 00:39:16.000
Someone gets ejected from the island.
824
00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:20.159
It'll be a poll on the YouTube video.
825
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:22.519
So the one thing that I'm kind of noticing is
826
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:27.650
like this tension between there is a methodology, right? So
827
00:39:27.670 --> 00:39:29.909
like you did a lot of work and there are things.
828
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:30.559
Right?
829
00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:33.780
And there is a way, like clearly there's a way
830
00:39:33.860 --> 00:39:37.320
that can be taught, can be learned, can be practiced,
831
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.960
can be improved. And there is this element of like
832
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:43.219
you can do all of it and it's never enough.
833
00:39:44.460 --> 00:39:51.820
So I'm really curious about how we... Like, so what,
834
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.699
you know, and, and, and, and I have my own
835
00:39:54.739 --> 00:39:56.489
thoughts about this. Like the weird thing is like, I
836
00:39:56.610 --> 00:39:58.869
feel like we all know the answer, but I think
837
00:39:58.909 --> 00:40:01.849
it's hard to understand, right? It's hard to explain.
838
00:40:01.909 --> 00:40:04.190
Just to interject, I did an episode that I never
839
00:40:04.230 --> 00:40:06.570
released with a guy called Kapil Gupta a while ago.
840
00:40:06.630 --> 00:40:09.690
And he knows that I didn't release it. He's Naval,
841
00:40:09.789 --> 00:40:12.269
one of Naval's coaches. Like this guy's very, very well esteemed.
842
00:40:12.550 --> 00:40:16.170
And this is like episode 40 or something. And, um,
843
00:40:16.650 --> 00:40:19.179
I got stuck on his, there is no prescription thing.
844
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:24.019
instruction and maybe I wasn't then, and maybe still, I'm
845
00:40:24.059 --> 00:40:28.019
not now sufficiently aware to sort of work that out.
846
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:32.719
But there is this temptation sometimes to continue to circle
847
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:35.639
the drain of like, well, you know, like a lot
848
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:37.619
of it, it comes down to the self and the
849
00:40:37.699 --> 00:40:39.900
awareness and when the moment arrives, you will know and
850
00:40:39.940 --> 00:40:41.820
so on and so forth. And you're like, okay, does
851
00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:45.329
this grow any fucking corn? Like show me this meeting
852
00:40:45.389 --> 00:40:48.510
with reality, because this is where the esoteric can kind
853
00:40:48.550 --> 00:40:53.139
of become a little it doesn't feel instructive. It doesn't
854
00:40:53.179 --> 00:40:56.300
feel like advisory. And to a degree, perhaps that's the takeaway.
855
00:40:56.469 --> 00:40:58.369
It's like, guess what? There is no prescription.
856
00:40:58.429 --> 00:40:58.969
Like, that is it.
857
00:40:59.230 --> 00:41:01.369
But it felt, that bit to me felt that, and
858
00:41:01.670 --> 00:41:03.869
it seems like at least part of some of what
859
00:41:03.889 --> 00:41:06.449
we're talking about here is like, there is, and also
860
00:41:06.550 --> 00:41:08.750
there is this other thing. There is this other part.
861
00:41:08.969 --> 00:41:10.849
And trying to describe the other part, because everyone is
862
00:41:10.889 --> 00:41:13.650
coming to you for the thing, right? And if they
863
00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:16.670
come to you for the thing, and you say, well, actually,
864
00:41:17.010 --> 00:41:20.329
there is no fucking prescription, you go, ah, damn it.
865
00:41:20.570 --> 00:41:20.739
Right.
866
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:24.159
Well, I think the best mental model that I know
867
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:28.039
to like point to that is here's a button. And
868
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:30.219
if you press the button, you get a hundred percent
869
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:34.039
peace for the rest of your life. You jump in
870
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:36.300
at the button. Are you hesitant about the button? Are
871
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.230
you like, yeah, no, I'm not going to push that button.
872
00:41:39.250 --> 00:41:41.989
Most humans aren't going to be like, yeah, boom. Most
873
00:41:42.030 --> 00:41:46.570
people are like, so you can circle the drain for
874
00:41:46.590 --> 00:41:51.110
a long time. Because most people aren't going to be like, yeah.
875
00:41:52.449 --> 00:41:54.579
Because the whole identity evaporates when you go, yeah.
876
00:41:59.340 --> 00:42:01.719
So. My turn? Yeah.
877
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:02.960
Or not.
878
00:42:03.099 --> 00:42:07.239
Sure. I felt like you got interrupted there.
879
00:42:07.300 --> 00:42:09.070
No, no, no. I mean, I can.
880
00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:09.610
Yeah.
881
00:42:09.630 --> 00:42:11.989
So I think we should. So just to put a
882
00:42:11.989 --> 00:42:14.849
pin in a couple things, I think I'm trying to
883
00:42:14.869 --> 00:42:17.590
think about people who are watching this and what would
884
00:42:17.610 --> 00:42:18.250
be helpful to.
885
00:42:18.190 --> 00:42:22.409
Them and telling them. hey, ultimately there's nothing you can do.
886
00:42:22.730 --> 00:42:23.090
Good luck.
887
00:42:23.250 --> 00:42:25.210
I think we do have to be prescriptive at some point.
888
00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:25.429
Yeah.
889
00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:27.170
And I think we should do that. Absolutely.
890
00:42:27.210 --> 00:42:30.670
Hold on, hold on. They won't continue to equivocate for
891
00:42:30.690 --> 00:42:32.269
the rest of the three hours.
892
00:42:32.289 --> 00:42:35.070
Wait till the end of the episode to find out more.
893
00:42:35.510 --> 00:42:38.989
Mr. Beast, I tried a million meditation techniques. Guess which
894
00:42:39.070 --> 00:42:39.610
one works?
895
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:43.079
Yeah, so I think I could make that video.
896
00:42:45.820 --> 00:42:47.840
Um, and, and, and so I, I do want to
897
00:42:47.860 --> 00:42:49.719
get to, I just want to acknowledge that I think
898
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:52.300
there is some methodology, right? Like, so you have groundbreakers
899
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:55.619
because we all figure out ways to consistently intervene with
900
00:42:55.659 --> 00:42:58.780
people and whether that's ego dissolution, which I think is
901
00:42:58.820 --> 00:43:01.280
a huge part of it, or, you know, whatever the
902
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:04.010
techniques like realizing truth, like becoming.
903
00:43:03.690 --> 00:43:05.329
Self-aware, like initiation.
904
00:43:05.570 --> 00:43:08.090
Yeah. Niksha initiation is, is a huge part. I think
905
00:43:08.130 --> 00:43:10.409
there's a lot that has been lost in our society,
906
00:43:10.469 --> 00:43:14.500
which once we start reintroducing is incredibly powerful. So initiation
907
00:43:14.579 --> 00:43:16.320
is for me at the top of the list for
908
00:43:16.340 --> 00:43:19.840
those kinds of things. But let's start with the story,
909
00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:22.320
I guess. You sure you don't want to go?
910
00:43:22.329 --> 00:43:23.929
No, please.
911
00:43:24.309 --> 00:43:28.530
So, you know, like Joe, and I'm sure like you guys,
912
00:43:28.809 --> 00:43:30.889
you know, I had a series of rock bottoms. And
913
00:43:30.909 --> 00:43:34.949
then there's like the classic rock bottom that I sort
914
00:43:34.989 --> 00:43:38.050
of share with people, which is a rock bottom that
915
00:43:38.110 --> 00:43:41.320
looks like a rock bottom. So, you know, I'm failing
916
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:45.139
out of college. you know, spending every day playing 16
917
00:43:45.139 --> 00:43:47.739
to 20 hours of video games a day. And I
918
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:52.590
remember like waking up one morning and sleeping through my
919
00:43:52.650 --> 00:43:55.429
Spanish final or not sleeping. I wake up with my
920
00:43:55.449 --> 00:43:57.769
alarm and like my Spanish final is today. And I
921
00:43:57.789 --> 00:43:59.909
just like decided in that moment, like I'm not going
922
00:43:59.929 --> 00:44:02.510
to go. And it's not even that like I'd even
923
00:44:02.530 --> 00:44:06.980
like like studied frantically for about six hours the night before.
924
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:08.579
And I slept for like two hours. And then I
925
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:10.380
was like, I'm just not going to go. And so
926
00:44:10.420 --> 00:44:12.719
I kind of failed out of college and then went
927
00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:16.079
to India after a couple of years. And then I
928
00:44:17.260 --> 00:44:20.440
really– so I was 21 at the time, spent 90
929
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.300
days in an ashram. And at the end of it,
930
00:44:22.409 --> 00:44:24.789
I went to one of my– what I truly believe
931
00:44:24.809 --> 00:44:27.170
to be one of my gurus. He's actually another student
932
00:44:27.269 --> 00:44:30.309
at the ashram. So I thought he was spiritually way
933
00:44:30.389 --> 00:44:32.949
more developed than like the teachers or leaders of the
934
00:44:33.050 --> 00:44:36.610
ashram who were surprisingly narcissistic.
935
00:44:37.300 --> 00:44:37.719
In many ways.
936
00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:39.480
There's a study that shows this, by the way. Yeah,
937
00:44:39.659 --> 00:44:40.340
I'm sure there is.
938
00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:45.949
Because, I mean, it's so bad. And so I go
939
00:44:45.989 --> 00:44:47.710
to my teacher and I say, hey, this is what
940
00:44:47.750 --> 00:44:49.369
I want to do for the rest of my life.
941
00:44:49.809 --> 00:44:51.630
You know, like, so I want to take Sannyas. I
942
00:44:51.650 --> 00:44:55.420
want to become a monk. And he's like, no. He says,
943
00:44:55.460 --> 00:44:57.000
you can come back if you want to when you're 30.
944
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.460
You can take your vows when you're 30. But you
945
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:00.619
need to go back and you need to finish your education.
946
00:45:01.300 --> 00:45:06.179
And he also says, unless you can become... exceptional in
947
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.579
the material world, you're just going to fail. The path
948
00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:14.400
that you want to walk is so much harder than
949
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.980
getting to the top of your field materially. So I
950
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.480
kind of took that to heart. It was kind of
951
00:45:21.539 --> 00:45:23.760
confusing and destabilizing and stuff like that.
952
00:45:23.780 --> 00:45:25.340
But I was like, okay, fine. So I'm going to
953
00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:25.860
become a monk.
954
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:30.719
And then I go back and within weeks of returning
955
00:45:30.940 --> 00:45:32.840
and making my decision to become a monk and.
956
00:45:32.949 --> 00:45:36.800
Going to be celibate, Nofap.
957
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:39.940
So then I meet my wife.
958
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:43.320
Ferocious masturbation. I'm just saying this is quite a sign
959
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:45.389
for celibacy. It is.
960
00:45:45.489 --> 00:45:48.449
As an Indian man as well.
961
00:45:49.469 --> 00:45:52.449
So then I go back, and within one week of
962
00:45:52.510 --> 00:45:54.510
returning to the U.S., I meet my wife. I mean,
963
00:45:54.530 --> 00:45:56.260
she's not my wife at the time. But I meet
964
00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:58.400
this girl, and I had had just a string of
965
00:45:58.539 --> 00:46:01.719
terrible— I can't even call them relationships— I would say like
966
00:46:01.820 --> 00:46:03.000
attempted relationships.
967
00:46:03.079 --> 00:46:04.429
If you guys know what I mean, if you guys
968
00:46:04.449 --> 00:46:04.909
were ever there.
969
00:46:06.570 --> 00:46:08.829
And so I was like in a fraternity and partying
970
00:46:08.869 --> 00:46:10.190
a lot and stuff like that. And just like nothing
971
00:46:10.230 --> 00:46:11.710
had ever worked out. And I meet this girl and
972
00:46:11.949 --> 00:46:14.050
she's a freshman and I'm, I mean, it's my third
973
00:46:14.070 --> 00:46:17.820
year in college, but I'm a sophomore. And so we
974
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:20.000
start date, like, I didn't realize we were dating, but
975
00:46:20.019 --> 00:46:22.179
we started dating. And then, you know, I tell her
976
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:23.559
like a couple months in, I was like.
977
00:46:24.260 --> 00:46:27.039
I'm sorry, I have to become a monk. And she's
978
00:46:27.099 --> 00:46:28.739
like 18, you know, she's a freshman.
979
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:32.639
And so I'm like, you know, like I'm going to
980
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:34.829
like she deserves to be with someone who's better and
981
00:46:34.909 --> 00:46:35.730
I'm going to become a monk.
982
00:46:36.289 --> 00:46:39.969
And she's like, yeah, whatever. And and so that goes
983
00:46:40.110 --> 00:46:40.909
on for a while.
984
00:46:40.929 --> 00:46:44.630
And then finally, I decide like, oh, I'm actually like
985
00:46:44.969 --> 00:46:47.760
I realize I'm sure what you guys realize at some
986
00:46:47.780 --> 00:46:49.699
point that, oh, like being a monk is like what's
987
00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:52.219
on the outside. And the real work is like on
988
00:46:52.260 --> 00:46:54.280
the inside. And I don't need to become a monk
989
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:57.829
to do the work. And in fact, people who sometimes
990
00:46:57.869 --> 00:47:00.409
dedicate themselves to doing the work in a very visible
991
00:47:01.250 --> 00:47:04.329
outer way are like spiritually dereft and empty on the inside.
992
00:47:05.630 --> 00:47:07.110
And then the part of the story that I think
993
00:47:07.210 --> 00:47:11.050
is like rock bottom is the peak that I don't
994
00:47:11.070 --> 00:47:14.750
know if I've publicly shared before. So I graduated with
995
00:47:14.789 --> 00:47:17.690
a 2.4 GPA. And so I wanted to go to
996
00:47:17.710 --> 00:47:19.570
medical school. And the reason I wanted to go to it.
997
00:47:19.590 --> 00:47:20.909
So I wanted to go to medical school at the
998
00:47:20.949 --> 00:47:25.400
beginning because I was the child of doctor's And being Indian,
999
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.679
like being a doctor, is as high as you can go, right?
1000
00:47:28.699 --> 00:47:30.860
So people will think I'm a badass. And not only
1001
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:32.400
did I want to go to medical school. Can any
1002
00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:35.239
of y'all guess which medical school I'd set my sights on?
1003
00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:37.070
Any takers? Any guesses? Harvard.
1004
00:47:37.210 --> 00:47:40.730
Yeah, absolutely. So I was going to be the best,
1005
00:47:41.010 --> 00:47:41.989
let alone a normal doctor.
1006
00:47:42.010 --> 00:47:42.690
The best Indian.
1007
00:47:42.949 --> 00:47:44.050
The best, right?
1008
00:47:44.670 --> 00:47:46.969
I'm number one Indian. Number one.
1009
00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:53.170
So then- I graduated with a whopping 2.4 GPA after
1010
00:47:53.230 --> 00:47:55.329
five and a half years. And I'm like, OK, so
1011
00:47:55.389 --> 00:47:58.150
now I want to marry this girl. And she wants
1012
00:47:58.190 --> 00:48:00.570
to marry a doctor because she's Indian, too. And the
1013
00:48:00.650 --> 00:48:02.969
one thing I swore is I'll never end up with
1014
00:48:02.989 --> 00:48:05.639
an Indian girl. And the one thing she swore is
1015
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:08.630
that she'd never end up with an Indian guy. And
1016
00:48:08.670 --> 00:48:10.630
so we really bonded over that. We were like, man,
1017
00:48:10.690 --> 00:48:15.690
fuck Indian people, dude. Indian guys, mama's boys, so high maintenance.
1018
00:48:15.849 --> 00:48:23.909
Indian girls, like so materialistic. Like, nah, man. So I
1019
00:48:23.969 --> 00:48:26.130
really struggle and I apply to medical school and stuff
1020
00:48:26.150 --> 00:48:29.110
like that. And I get one interview. In the interview,
1021
00:48:29.130 --> 00:48:31.750
I have a friend who's interviewing on the same day.
1022
00:48:31.809 --> 00:48:33.949
So like we're going to drive there together. And I
1023
00:48:33.989 --> 00:48:36.949
go to the interview and- And then I come back
1024
00:48:37.130 --> 00:48:39.469
and I'm like, I like, I want this more than
1025
00:48:39.570 --> 00:48:43.699
anything else. And I remember like, I was like, I
1026
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:45.619
want this so much. So I was like meditating and
1027
00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:47.539
I'd been doing that for a few years now. And
1028
00:48:47.579 --> 00:48:49.380
so like, I, it was one of the few times
1029
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.980
that I prayed. And, and so I was like meditating
1030
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:54.639
at the end of the meditation. I was just so
1031
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:58.039
fucking desperate. I was like, please, like I've, I've worked
1032
00:48:58.099 --> 00:49:00.000
really hard. I've done like, you know, I kind of
1033
00:49:00.019 --> 00:49:01.989
like put my life together. Like it's hard to get
1034
00:49:02.050 --> 00:49:04.389
rid of like a 0.9 GPA. So like I, I'd
1035
00:49:04.409 --> 00:49:07.289
done pretty well. And My last semester in college, I
1036
00:49:07.329 --> 00:49:10.030
took 24 credits, which is like twice a regular class load.
1037
00:49:10.070 --> 00:49:11.719
And I studied for the MCAT and all this stuff.
1038
00:49:11.739 --> 00:49:14.440
And I was like, I did everything right. Like, please, God, like,
1039
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:16.800
let me have medical school. Like, can I do this?
1040
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:18.420
I've met this girl and I want to marry her
1041
00:49:18.460 --> 00:49:20.639
and like all this kind of stuff. And then like
1042
00:49:20.739 --> 00:49:25.019
something inside me said, no. Like, it's not going to happen.
1043
00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:27.880
And it wasn't even like doubt. It was like surety.
1044
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.980
And it was like, this is not going to happen.
1045
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:33.980
And I broke down crying and I felt like really bad.
1046
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:37.199
But it was also like something really soothing. And that
1047
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:39.900
very few times is stuff like that happened to me
1048
00:49:39.940 --> 00:49:43.280
in meditation. Like there's stuff that happens consistently, but not
1049
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:46.980
like this. And so it also told me that it's
1050
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:49.039
going to take you like two years. Like you have
1051
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.780
to do this karmically for like two years. And, and
1052
00:49:52.820 --> 00:49:55.280
it's hard to describe because it wasn't like a voice.
1053
00:49:55.570 --> 00:49:57.809
I use the word knowing because there is not a
1054
00:49:57.889 --> 00:50:00.489
good like English word for it. It was like, I
1055
00:50:00.570 --> 00:50:03.090
knew in that moment that this was, I was supposed
1056
00:50:03.130 --> 00:50:06.349
to like do this work and futilely for some amount
1057
00:50:06.389 --> 00:50:08.530
of time, which is another one of these things I'd
1058
00:50:08.610 --> 00:50:11.219
love to get your thoughts on. Like, I think we
1059
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:16.719
grossly underestimate the value of futile work. And, and, and
1060
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:20.070
so I know it's weird, but such an oxymoron, I know,
1061
00:50:20.110 --> 00:50:22.969
but I think there's something weird about karma and like
1062
00:50:23.510 --> 00:50:26.070
you have to work, you know, there's a saying that
1063
00:50:26.630 --> 00:50:28.690
the best way to learn go is to lose your
1064
00:50:28.909 --> 00:50:34.130
first hundred games. And we are so focused on winning, winning, winning, winning, winning.
1065
00:50:34.250 --> 00:50:37.750
I think we have lost sight of the value of losing.
1066
00:50:38.769 --> 00:50:41.349
And sometimes when I work with my patients, there's this
1067
00:50:41.449 --> 00:50:43.349
weird karmic angle that I don't.
1068
00:50:43.250 --> 00:50:44.489
Have full insight into.
1069
00:50:45.090 --> 00:50:48.130
But like the process of getting to the top, you
1070
00:50:48.170 --> 00:50:51.610
have to get through the falls. And there's this weird
1071
00:50:51.670 --> 00:50:53.769
spiritual principle. I know I'm getting a bit off track
1072
00:50:53.789 --> 00:50:57.070
from the story, but there's this weird spiritual principle that
1073
00:50:57.110 --> 00:50:59.340
when I work with people who are more spiritually developed,
1074
00:50:59.900 --> 00:51:02.789
they'll kind of say that there's an acceleration of karma
1075
00:51:03.070 --> 00:51:04.769
when you start doing spiritual practice.
1076
00:51:04.809 --> 00:51:06.289
Can you define what you mean by karma for the
1077
00:51:06.329 --> 00:51:08.329
people who maybe don't understand it fully?
1078
00:51:10.849 --> 00:51:11.789
Is that a big question?
1079
00:51:12.070 --> 00:51:14.230
Yes, sure. Oh, okay. I thought you were just going
1080
00:51:14.250 --> 00:51:15.130
to give me a single sentence.
1081
00:51:15.230 --> 00:51:16.679
I was thinking about whether I want to give you
1082
00:51:16.699 --> 00:51:20.599
a single sentence, but I don't. So, y'all watching.
1083
00:51:20.900 --> 00:51:23.360
I'm going to.
1084
00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:23.679
Crack a pipe.
1085
00:51:25.500 --> 00:51:28.849
So, so, And so that was like, it was kind
1086
00:51:28.889 --> 00:51:31.210
of rock bottom for me. But what I also felt
1087
00:51:31.349 --> 00:51:36.050
was like, so calm. Like I knew that there was
1088
00:51:36.190 --> 00:51:40.590
an immense amount of hurt, like coming down the pipeline,
1089
00:51:40.610 --> 00:51:43.570
that car's coming, like she's not stopping. And the other
1090
00:51:43.610 --> 00:51:45.630
thing that I felt that was really interesting is like,
1091
00:51:46.010 --> 00:51:50.070
that's okay. So I felt immense relief, even though something
1092
00:51:50.179 --> 00:51:53.699
really bitter is like coming down the pipeline. And so
1093
00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:55.400
that's my rock bottom story.
1094
00:51:57.420 --> 00:51:58.039
It's interesting.
1095
00:51:58.059 --> 00:52:01.739
I think one of the pieces that you're talking about,
1096
00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:05.030
like filling your way towards success is so vital.
1097
00:52:05.409 --> 00:52:05.570
Yeah.
1098
00:52:05.849 --> 00:52:08.329
And sometimes that is in the mundane things. I found
1099
00:52:08.349 --> 00:52:10.190
that in my life, like whenever people ask, how have
1100
00:52:10.210 --> 00:52:13.429
you gotten here? It's like, I don't know, a decade
1101
00:52:13.449 --> 00:52:17.630
and a half of failing my way to where I am. And,
1102
00:52:18.969 --> 00:52:25.639
and a decade before that of being absolutely fucking frustrated
1103
00:52:25.780 --> 00:52:26.860
and rageful.
1104
00:52:26.440 --> 00:52:27.260
That I was failing.
1105
00:52:27.730 --> 00:52:31.170
And hating that I was failing and rejecting the failing
1106
00:52:31.230 --> 00:52:33.650
and beating the shit out of myself for failing. And
1107
00:52:33.690 --> 00:52:36.789
so there is a kind of reconciliation with, I think,
1108
00:52:36.949 --> 00:52:40.510
one's relationship to failure that's necessary for the shift that
1109
00:52:40.690 --> 00:52:42.719
I think we're really talking about.
1110
00:52:43.969 --> 00:52:44.280
Yeah.
1111
00:52:44.949 --> 00:52:47.820
And there's like the most futile things like would be
1112
00:52:47.860 --> 00:52:51.440
like depression. And there's a huge amount of research that
1113
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:55.400
shows that people who go through a race of depression
1114
00:52:55.719 --> 00:52:57.940
and find themselves on the other end are far more
1115
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.489
resilient than people who've never gone through the depression before.
1116
00:53:01.010 --> 00:53:07.170
And so absolutely that futility is it like it creates
1117
00:53:07.210 --> 00:53:10.949
a resilience and whether it's take your first million words
1118
00:53:11.010 --> 00:53:13.230
and throw them out and then you're an author or
1119
00:53:13.869 --> 00:53:16.199
lose your first hundred games of go or be depressed.
1120
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:19.820
I think it's a tremendous amount. And that relationship, If
1121
00:53:19.860 --> 00:53:21.860
you want to be futile effectively, if you want to
1122
00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:24.159
be effectively futile, enjoy it.
1123
00:53:24.269 --> 00:53:25.449
Don't beat yourself up over it.
1124
00:53:26.829 --> 00:53:30.599
As you were talking about, we have massively undervalued the
1125
00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:33.920
value of futile work. I had this line in my
1126
00:53:33.940 --> 00:53:37.320
mind that Sisyphus is still racking up experience points.
1127
00:53:37.539 --> 00:53:40.739
Yeah. Dude, he's grinding.
1128
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:42.340
He's grinding.
1129
00:53:42.409 --> 00:53:46.010
You want to look like him? Do the Sisyphus workout.
1130
00:53:46.050 --> 00:53:47.030
Just up the hill.
1131
00:53:47.730 --> 00:53:50.190
He's next to the spawn point for the boulder all
1132
00:53:50.230 --> 00:53:53.710
the time. Yeah. He's just camped out next to the boulder, pushes.
1133
00:53:53.510 --> 00:53:54.250
Up the hill.
1134
00:53:54.289 --> 00:53:55.269
Farming that boulder.
1135
00:53:55.329 --> 00:53:58.280
He's farming the boulder. All right, come on, grand finale.
1136
00:53:59.170 --> 00:54:01.409
The supplement industry is full of products making claims that
1137
00:54:01.429 --> 00:54:03.409
they can't back, which is why I'm such a massive
1138
00:54:03.449 --> 00:54:05.949
fan of Momentus. Their co-founder, Jeff Beyers, played in the
1139
00:54:06.030 --> 00:54:09.219
NFL and saw firsthand just how wildly the quality of
1140
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:12.460
supplements can vary. So he built Momentus around a higher standard.
1141
00:54:12.739 --> 00:54:17.860
Every product from Momentus uses evidence-backed ingredients, transparent doses, and
1142
00:54:18.019 --> 00:54:22.059
independent third-party testing. Everything is NSF certified for sports. So
1143
00:54:22.099 --> 00:54:24.619
what's on the label is actually what's in the tub.
1144
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:28.829
It's why Momentus is trusted inside all supplements. 32 NFL
1145
00:54:28.869 --> 00:54:31.130
locker rooms. It's why I've trusted them with my own
1146
00:54:31.170 --> 00:54:34.429
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1147
00:54:34.489 --> 00:54:36.449
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1148
00:54:36.469 --> 00:54:38.289
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1149
00:54:38.329 --> 00:54:41.010
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00:54:41.170 --> 00:54:43.889
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1151
00:54:44.090 --> 00:54:46.039
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1152
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:49.460
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1153
00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:54.260
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1154
00:54:54.340 --> 00:54:56.920
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1155
00:54:57.429 --> 00:54:58.670
I mean, I feel like I was way more of
1156
00:54:58.690 --> 00:55:01.389
a shit show than you guys.
1157
00:55:02.250 --> 00:55:02.809
Amen to that.
1158
00:55:02.829 --> 00:55:05.820
If you're going to win, don't brag about it.
1159
00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:08.980
No, I got to brag a little bit.
1160
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:13.179
No, I mean, I really genuinely hated myself. I really
1161
00:55:13.260 --> 00:55:17.110
genuinely hated... It can make me emotional still today.
1162
00:55:17.130 --> 00:55:17.699
I hated myself. And.
1163
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.800
I was really lost. I didn't know who I was.
1164
00:55:24.820 --> 00:55:27.780
I was a walking contradiction. If you had met me
1165
00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:33.449
at 22, I was riding a motorcycle, riding a bright
1166
00:55:33.550 --> 00:55:36.849
yellow crotch rocket with a helmet that had two-inch metal
1167
00:55:36.889 --> 00:55:40.369
spikes super glued onto it, going to yoga classes, binge
1168
00:55:40.409 --> 00:55:43.570
drinking at night, smoking cigarettes, and going to opera rehearsal
1169
00:55:44.050 --> 00:55:46.389
because I was singing classical music. I did not know
1170
00:55:46.469 --> 00:55:49.059
who the hell I was at all. And I was
1171
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:50.719
trying to grasp onto.
1172
00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:56.380
Who could I possibly become in this world of possibilities?
1173
00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.710
And I just had so much pain and suffering inside
1174
00:56:00.730 --> 00:56:03.690
of me. And anyway, the rock bottom moment for me,
1175
00:56:04.610 --> 00:56:10.059
I completed my degree in music, in opera performance as
1176
00:56:10.099 --> 00:56:10.880
a classical singer.
1177
00:56:12.190 --> 00:56:14.250
Where were you living at this point? I was in Vancouver.
1178
00:56:14.489 --> 00:56:17.909
At this point, the rock bottom point, I was in Victoria. Okay.
1179
00:56:17.929 --> 00:56:20.500
It's a good place for rock bottom. It's a great
1180
00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:21.400
place for rock bottom.
1181
00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:23.599
I was just thinking, I mean, you said you were
1182
00:56:23.619 --> 00:56:25.380
at your low point, but you sound like a blast
1183
00:56:25.420 --> 00:56:27.500
to hang out with.
1184
00:56:27.579 --> 00:56:29.860
Opera singer, right? Yeah. And, you know, it was always
1185
00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:32.219
a contradiction because....
1186
00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:39.699
I didn't like who I was, but I was charismatic
1187
00:56:39.739 --> 00:56:41.519
and I was able to attract women, but then I
1188
00:56:41.539 --> 00:56:44.599
didn't feel good enough. And so I'd sabotage their relationships. And,
1189
00:56:45.480 --> 00:56:48.820
and so anyway, I was, I just finished my degree.
1190
00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:53.929
I was living in Victoria and I had been, I'd
1191
00:56:54.010 --> 00:56:57.190
moved there to work with a mentor and he was
1192
00:56:57.250 --> 00:56:58.809
somebody that was in his seventies.
1193
00:56:58.849 --> 00:56:59.789
He was French Canadian.
1194
00:56:59.809 --> 00:57:04.809
And so, The background is that for the previous like
1195
00:57:04.849 --> 00:57:07.010
two or three years, I was in a relationship for
1196
00:57:07.030 --> 00:57:08.429
a number of years, but for the previous two or
1197
00:57:08.449 --> 00:57:10.630
three years, I'd been having a number of affairs.
1198
00:57:10.650 --> 00:57:13.639
I was just like sleeping around nonstop. When I travel.
1199
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:19.480
You're literally telling huge parts of my 22-year-old experience.
1200
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:20.550
Okay, there you go.
1201
00:57:20.579 --> 00:57:22.260
Smoking cigarettes, sleeping around.
1202
00:57:22.280 --> 00:57:27.059
Dude, I was just watching from the dorms playing video games.
1203
00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:29.079
You were in the tuck chat playing RuneScape.
1204
00:57:29.159 --> 00:57:30.539
Yeah, I wanted to be that.
1205
00:57:30.820 --> 00:57:35.219
Literally, I was playing music, different kind of music, smoking cigarettes,
1206
00:57:35.239 --> 00:57:36.019
sleeping around.
1207
00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:38.469
There you go. There you go. Not a motorcycle.
1208
00:57:38.530 --> 00:57:41.289
Just needed to give you a motorcycle.
1209
00:57:41.349 --> 00:57:43.570
I had a van because I had musical equipment to
1210
00:57:43.610 --> 00:57:45.869
put in. But yeah, everything else is the same.
1211
00:57:46.130 --> 00:57:47.070
I had BO.
1212
00:57:47.550 --> 00:57:53.070
That's the most Indian thing you could have come up with.
1213
00:57:53.289 --> 00:57:54.289
Oh my God.
1214
00:57:54.550 --> 00:57:57.710
I had a Honda VTR 1000 and BO and you
1215
00:57:57.750 --> 00:58:04.349
had BO. But yeah, behind the scenes, cheating, lying, weed, booze.
1216
00:58:04.980 --> 00:58:08.920
massive porn addiction that I couldn't stop. Um, and just
1217
00:58:08.940 --> 00:58:11.360
tons of cheating. And it was, and it sort of
1218
00:58:11.420 --> 00:58:14.440
came to this moment where in this, I won't tell
1219
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:19.530
the story, but in this like very like cinematic way,
1220
00:58:19.650 --> 00:58:23.690
she found out that I like, I was, I couldn't
1221
00:58:24.110 --> 00:58:26.110
deny it anymore. I couldn't lie anymore. She had caught
1222
00:58:26.130 --> 00:58:28.760
me before I had lied. She had, you know, coming again,
1223
00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:31.420
I'd lied. And then in this moment, it was just like,
1224
00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:35.300
you know, I, I couldn't escape the damage that I
1225
00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:35.840
had cost her.
1226
00:58:36.820 --> 00:58:39.179
And it broke me. It like really just broke me.
1227
00:58:39.619 --> 00:58:42.519
And, but I had so much shame. I didn't want
1228
00:58:42.579 --> 00:58:45.610
anybody to know what I had done. So she moved
1229
00:58:45.650 --> 00:58:48.909
out of our apartment. I moved all of my shit
1230
00:58:48.949 --> 00:58:53.030
into storage. And at that time, um, I had a,
1231
00:58:53.190 --> 00:58:54.750
I'd gotten rid of my motorcycle and I had a
1232
00:58:54.750 --> 00:58:59.300
2007 Pontiac G5, which is a two door coupe piece
1233
00:58:59.340 --> 00:59:02.820
of shit. But it was black with white racing stripes
1234
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.599
across the top and a big fin and chrome rims
1235
00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:06.139
on the side.
1236
00:59:07.389 --> 00:59:09.969
It was really bad. That's the low point.
1237
00:59:10.099 --> 00:59:12.860
That's the end of the story.
1238
00:59:13.360 --> 00:59:13.940
That's the low point.
1239
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:15.579
The low point is I moved all my shit in
1240
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:18.010
the storage and lived in the car in a Walmart
1241
00:59:18.030 --> 00:59:21.070
parking lot for a few weeks because I didn't want
1242
00:59:21.090 --> 00:59:24.849
people to know who I had become. I couldn't hold
1243
00:59:24.909 --> 00:59:27.960
the veil anymore. I couldn't hold the illusion of, No,
1244
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:30.380
I'm this good guy. I'm this nice guy. You know,
1245
00:59:30.860 --> 00:59:31.619
I'm happy.
1246
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:34.059
I'm good. I like myself. I couldn't hold that. Like
1247
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:35.760
the veil was broken. It was done. It was dead.
1248
00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:40.010
And I was just trying to hedge. And one night
1249
00:59:40.110 --> 00:59:40.449
under the.
1250
00:59:40.429 --> 00:59:43.670
Stars in the backseat of my car, looking out, I
1251
00:59:44.030 --> 00:59:48.230
contemplating taking my life. And it was in that moment
1252
00:59:48.550 --> 00:59:51.289
where I was like, I don't want to die.
1253
00:59:51.389 --> 00:59:53.869
Like this is, you know, this is insane.
1254
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:57.480
And so a couple of days after living in the
1255
00:59:58.019 --> 01:00:01.070
Walmart parking lot, I had a conversation with my then
1256
01:00:01.510 --> 01:00:02.280
singing mentor.
1257
01:00:03.469 --> 01:00:04.170
His name was Bernard.
1258
01:00:04.909 --> 01:00:10.010
And he was very well versed and trained in Jungian psychology.
1259
01:00:10.190 --> 01:00:12.650
And he just started to help me. And it became
1260
01:00:12.670 --> 01:00:15.730
an apprenticeship. And I was 74.
1261
01:00:15.730 --> 01:00:16.250
I chopped wood.
1262
01:00:16.289 --> 01:00:20.480
I carried water. I helped with his Dobermans. He raised Dobermans. Uh,
1263
01:00:20.929 --> 01:00:23.469
and he taught me Jungian psychology. He taught me about
1264
01:00:23.489 --> 01:00:23.909
the shadow.
1265
01:00:23.989 --> 01:00:26.289
He helped me heal. Uh, he really saved my life.
1266
01:00:26.489 --> 01:00:28.250
He really, he just saved my life.
1267
01:00:28.849 --> 01:00:32.329
And then, you know, I, years later turned it into something,
1268
01:00:32.389 --> 01:00:35.989
but that was sort of the inflection point where who
1269
01:00:36.090 --> 01:00:38.730
I was and who I thought I could be just
1270
01:00:38.789 --> 01:00:41.210
couldn't exist any longer, you know?
1271
01:00:41.449 --> 01:00:42.250
And yeah.
1272
01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:44.420
And Victoria is a good place to hit rock bottom
1273
01:00:44.579 --> 01:00:45.860
because there's Bernard's there.
1274
01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:48.929
There's Bernard's there. There's lots of Bernard's there.
1275
01:00:48.969 --> 01:00:55.230
Can I make a director's cut DVD request? Can you
1276
01:00:55.670 --> 01:00:58.429
just add on to the end the story that you
1277
01:00:58.510 --> 01:01:02.369
once told me about what it felt like when you'd
1278
01:01:02.510 --> 01:01:05.090
finally made it from the family perspective and you looked
1279
01:01:05.130 --> 01:01:07.389
back on that version of you and you had to
1280
01:01:07.429 --> 01:01:09.349
say goodbye, you had to kind of bury that version
1281
01:01:09.369 --> 01:01:11.750
of you. I just think that's like a really lovely...
1282
01:01:11.980 --> 01:01:12.960
like additional story.
1283
01:01:12.980 --> 01:01:14.440
Yeah. Like when I found out my son was pregnant
1284
01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:17.380
or my wife was pregnant with my son. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
1285
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:19.679
So I had this, I had this moment five years
1286
01:01:19.699 --> 01:01:23.739
ago when my son was born and when he was,
1287
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:26.550
I found out my wife was pregnant with him when
1288
01:01:26.610 --> 01:01:28.250
we were in Vancouver and we were staying at a
1289
01:01:28.489 --> 01:01:31.769
friend's apartment. And my wife was like, I think I'm pregnant.
1290
01:01:31.789 --> 01:01:32.750
And I was like, okay.
1291
01:01:33.429 --> 01:01:35.230
And then we found out, and I was having a
1292
01:01:35.590 --> 01:01:38.030
session with a man that I was working with and
1293
01:01:38.349 --> 01:01:42.519
we're chatting. And I was like, I can't, It's hard
1294
01:01:42.579 --> 01:01:46.079
for me to hold the life that I have now
1295
01:01:46.380 --> 01:01:50.190
because it's so vastly different, not just externally, but actually
1296
01:01:50.230 --> 01:01:53.809
how I feel inside, like how I, how I feel
1297
01:01:53.849 --> 01:01:56.750
about myself and my life and the existence that I've
1298
01:01:56.789 --> 01:01:59.230
created is just, it was so jarring. I was just
1299
01:01:59.269 --> 01:02:02.179
completely broke down and I was sobbing from a place
1300
01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:07.659
of joy that you know, almost like I had made it,
1301
01:02:07.739 --> 01:02:09.280
like I had made it out, you know, like I
1302
01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:11.679
had made it beyond. And maybe there'll be another period
1303
01:02:11.699 --> 01:02:15.130
of my life where I, you know, get dragged back
1304
01:02:15.250 --> 01:02:17.809
into the depths of the Negrito. But, you know, it
1305
01:02:17.889 --> 01:02:21.699
really was this sort of full circle moment where, you know, 10,
1306
01:02:21.699 --> 01:02:24.219
10 years later, I was like, holy shit, like I've
1307
01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:27.300
made it through this, but it took a long time,
1308
01:02:27.780 --> 01:02:29.079
you know, it took a long, long time.
1309
01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:30.059
So. Yeah.
1310
01:02:30.909 --> 01:02:34.269
I described that moment as realizing that my life was
1311
01:02:34.289 --> 01:02:36.650
a dream that I never thought possible coming true.
1312
01:02:36.869 --> 01:02:40.250
Totally. Like just no conception whatsoever that life could be
1313
01:02:40.289 --> 01:02:40.670
this good.
1314
01:02:41.130 --> 01:02:44.179
It really, I think it really brought a kind of
1315
01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:47.440
presence to beauty in my life that I didn't, like
1316
01:02:47.500 --> 01:02:51.739
I never was, I knew beauty, I sang, I performed,
1317
01:02:51.780 --> 01:02:54.469
I understood that beauty was a very important part of existence,
1318
01:02:55.050 --> 01:02:59.510
but I didn't really have a direct experience of like, oh,
1319
01:02:59.550 --> 01:03:02.190
this is the potency of beauty, you know, that it
1320
01:03:02.269 --> 01:03:06.559
really can bring you to this place of awe, you know,
1321
01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:06.960
and wonder.
1322
01:03:06.980 --> 01:03:09.559
Yeah, that's beautiful.
1323
01:03:11.460 --> 01:03:14.559
That's so interesting because this is the experience that I
1324
01:03:14.619 --> 01:03:20.389
don't share with y'all. So my internal experience of making
1325
01:03:20.469 --> 01:03:27.119
it is like absurdist and meme-ish. like it's not negative,
1326
01:03:27.179 --> 01:03:28.739
but like, you know, when you guys talk about this
1327
01:03:28.780 --> 01:03:31.840
deep beauty, I don't think, so I feel like not
1328
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:35.559
to make too many comparisons, but I think I'm luckier actually,
1329
01:03:36.260 --> 01:03:37.599
you know, and I think you win, by the way.
1330
01:03:40.860 --> 01:03:41.780
I don't know, the pitchforks.
1331
01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:47.760
The pitchfork. A love island is hard to top. The painting,
1332
01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:48.860
the painting's going to be good.
1333
01:03:50.289 --> 01:03:53.719
But yeah, you know, so I felt, I think, the
1334
01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:55.780
depth of what you guys are talking about, but it
1335
01:03:55.840 --> 01:03:58.860
has a different color. Like I actually just recently had
1336
01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:02.880
a conversation with my wife about, and I've gone through
1337
01:04:02.900 --> 01:04:06.079
some stuff recently, which maybe we'll get to, but just like,
1338
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:11.800
we're really lucky. We're like so incredibly lucky. And also like,
1339
01:04:12.659 --> 01:04:18.059
when I look at my life, I feel a sense
1340
01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:22.679
of disbelief and humor. So one time my wife got
1341
01:04:22.719 --> 01:04:29.639
an email, from a Nigerian prince. And we're like, this
1342
01:04:29.719 --> 01:04:32.360
is a scam. Oh, sorry, not a Nigerian prince, someone
1343
01:04:32.380 --> 01:04:37.900
from the UAE. This is a scam, right? Except it wasn't.
1344
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:41.929
It was like someone from a royal family of a
1345
01:04:41.969 --> 01:04:45.849
country in the UAE, in the MENA region, was reaching
1346
01:04:45.989 --> 01:04:51.449
out and wanted to invest in Healthy Gamer. And so clearly,
1347
01:04:51.469 --> 01:04:53.829
you get some like, hi, my name is whatever. I'm like,
1348
01:04:54.300 --> 01:04:56.619
royalty and I want to give you all this pile
1349
01:04:56.659 --> 01:04:57.030
of money.
1350
01:04:57.320 --> 01:04:57.690
Sure you are.
1351
01:04:58.030 --> 01:05:01.050
Do you guys have time to talk?
1352
01:05:01.190 --> 01:05:06.909
The real philanthropic like Ghanaian and UAE community has been
1353
01:05:07.010 --> 01:05:09.349
diddled by all of the scans. Like if I'm trying
1354
01:05:09.389 --> 01:05:11.010
to give my money away as a Nigerian prince, it
1355
01:05:11.070 --> 01:05:12.019
actually becomes quite hard.
1356
01:05:13.579 --> 01:05:17.260
So we were, and then like, we have this moment, right?
1357
01:05:17.719 --> 01:05:21.340
And then I look at this and I'm like, what? Like,
1358
01:05:21.420 --> 01:05:24.960
this is where I, like, what is this? And that's
1359
01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:27.070
the strangest, I mean, that's the most, when I feel
1360
01:05:27.130 --> 01:05:29.610
the depth of, you guys are talking about the shattering
1361
01:05:29.650 --> 01:05:31.030
of the veil, which I think is a great thing
1362
01:05:31.050 --> 01:05:34.269
to explore methodologically, right? Like how do you get there?
1363
01:05:35.050 --> 01:05:37.690
But when I see through the veil, like what I
1364
01:05:37.789 --> 01:05:40.530
see is something that is just weirdly like absurd and
1365
01:05:40.550 --> 01:05:43.269
like funny. And I feel an immense amount of joy
1366
01:05:44.340 --> 01:05:46.480
with it. So I think there's a positive valence, but
1367
01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:50.679
it's not like grand and awe-inspiring. And not to say that,
1368
01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:52.579
you know, one is better than the other, but if
1369
01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:55.500
there are people out there who, Feel that. Feel the
1370
01:05:55.559 --> 01:05:56.360
absurdism of life.
1371
01:05:56.380 --> 01:05:58.539
It's funny that you're like marveling at the cathedral and
1372
01:05:58.559 --> 01:05:59.380
you're giggling at it.
1373
01:05:59.539 --> 01:06:02.389
Yeah. And I am sure he's giggling at it too.
1374
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:05.030
I'm definitely... Yeah, there's both happening. You just spend more
1375
01:06:05.070 --> 01:06:06.800
time with Hanuman than me. Maybe.
1376
01:06:06.889 --> 01:06:09.369
And I mean, I experience awe too. Like I'm, you know,
1377
01:06:09.829 --> 01:06:13.550
I can get there, but it's just so interesting to hear.
1378
01:06:13.570 --> 01:06:16.030
I have a hard time with it sometimes. I have
1379
01:06:16.050 --> 01:06:16.719
a hard time with it.
1380
01:06:16.829 --> 01:06:17.449
With what's it?
1381
01:06:21.650 --> 01:06:22.010
I think.
1382
01:06:22.960 --> 01:06:25.000
and I've found a lot of people have this experience,
1383
01:06:25.099 --> 01:06:28.940
but I think I find sometimes that there's always like
1384
01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:32.440
this little still background voice of like, when's the shoe
1385
01:06:32.460 --> 01:06:34.460
going to drop? Like when's the thing going to happen?
1386
01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:36.840
That's going to take me back to that place of
1387
01:06:36.889 --> 01:06:37.440
hell that.
1388
01:06:37.360 --> 01:06:41.269
I was in before. And wouldn't you be lucky for
1389
01:06:41.289 --> 01:06:45.730
that though? And look what it got you. Yeah, maybe.
1390
01:06:45.750 --> 01:06:46.849
Yeah. Yeah.
1391
01:06:47.289 --> 01:06:50.070
I mean, if you could double what you got, would
1392
01:06:50.090 --> 01:06:55.269
you do it? In joy and in love. I mean, yeah.
1393
01:06:55.610 --> 01:06:55.869
Yeah.
1394
01:06:56.130 --> 01:06:59.230
I think it's, it, it, it, again, I think we're
1395
01:06:59.269 --> 01:07:04.550
like circling the incomprehensible nature of some of this work,
1396
01:07:04.750 --> 01:07:09.360
like the unexpressible experience of it. Um, I think from
1397
01:07:09.389 --> 01:07:13.179
like a more calculable place, there was a couple of
1398
01:07:13.199 --> 01:07:15.079
things that I had to learn. Like one of them
1399
01:07:15.579 --> 01:07:19.179
was I had to learn how to develop some competency
1400
01:07:19.420 --> 01:07:22.019
in things that helped me to bolster a sense of self-esteem.
1401
01:07:22.690 --> 01:07:25.750
you know, like I didn't, I wasn't good academically. I
1402
01:07:25.789 --> 01:07:28.630
wasn't good in sports. I was mediocre in most things.
1403
01:07:28.829 --> 01:07:31.070
And so, you know, I think that there were some
1404
01:07:31.170 --> 01:07:35.119
things that I really had to build out. But yeah,
1405
01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:37.679
maybe at some point, like maybe, you know, if it
1406
01:07:37.719 --> 01:07:41.699
all went to hell in a handbasket again, that they're,
1407
01:07:41.840 --> 01:07:44.260
they're just, you know, it's just like, that's the karmic cycle, right?
1408
01:07:44.860 --> 01:07:47.260
I'm excited because for the first time in my life,
1409
01:07:47.340 --> 01:07:48.150
I disagree with you.
1410
01:07:48.429 --> 01:07:51.389
Okay, cool. And I'm sure that we don't actually disagree.
1411
01:07:51.409 --> 01:07:54.980
I know, but, but, So, you know, you asked, like,
1412
01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:59.599
look at where it got you. And my reaction was, no,
1413
01:07:59.679 --> 01:08:01.920
I wouldn't be grateful for that.
1414
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:03.000
Yeah.
1415
01:08:03.340 --> 01:08:04.599
And I'm pretty sure we're going to end up at
1416
01:08:04.619 --> 01:08:05.059
the same place.
1417
01:08:05.099 --> 01:08:09.179
But, like, I think the amount of suffering that I had, like,
1418
01:08:09.260 --> 01:08:09.619
I'm good.
1419
01:08:10.019 --> 01:08:13.860
Yeah. I'm good now. I'm fully sufficient.
1420
01:08:14.059 --> 01:08:14.739
I don't need more.
1421
01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:15.440
Yeah, yeah.
1422
01:08:15.579 --> 01:08:17.640
And I also don't need twice as much love.
1423
01:08:18.359 --> 01:08:18.520
Yeah.
1424
01:08:18.899 --> 01:08:19.119
You know?
1425
01:08:20.270 --> 01:08:23.279
I'm actually okay. And I think that's part of this
1426
01:08:23.619 --> 01:08:26.640
karmic thing, which we'll define at some point, where I
1427
01:08:26.659 --> 01:08:29.560
get the sense that, and I'm sure that we don't
1428
01:08:29.699 --> 01:08:30.539
actually disagree.
1429
01:08:30.819 --> 01:08:31.720
And I love, I.
1430
01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:37.710
Think your question speaks to me of the methodology of
1431
01:08:37.750 --> 01:08:40.689
the reframe, right? Change our relationship, which I think is
1432
01:08:40.729 --> 01:08:44.789
another big point. It is not the avoidance of the
1433
01:08:44.829 --> 01:08:48.350
thing or getting the thing. It is changing your relationship
1434
01:08:48.390 --> 01:08:49.170
to the thing itself.
1435
01:08:50.029 --> 01:08:54.489
If the frame is... You have a fear that falling
1436
01:08:54.560 --> 01:08:58.149
back would be a bad thing, but the realistic outcome
1437
01:08:58.189 --> 01:08:59.970
of the last time that you fell back was every
1438
01:09:00.180 --> 01:09:05.539
that you wanted, the fear of falling back dissolves because
1439
01:09:05.579 --> 01:09:08.380
you realize that if it was to happen, not do
1440
01:09:08.420 --> 01:09:11.539
you want it to happen? If it was to happen,
1441
01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:14.939
you would at some point in future end up with
1442
01:09:14.979 --> 01:09:18.300
more of what you've got. the voice that whispers what
1443
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:21.619
happens if the shoe drops can fuck off because regardless
1444
01:09:21.640 --> 01:09:24.949
of whether you need it or want it more, the
1445
01:09:24.989 --> 01:09:29.130
fear is kind of pointless. So the frame of there
1446
01:09:29.189 --> 01:09:30.949
is nothing to fear from that.
1447
01:09:31.109 --> 01:09:33.689
Yeah. I'll add one other part to the reframing.
1448
01:09:33.729 --> 01:09:36.770
The other reframing is that it's like when you start
1449
01:09:36.810 --> 01:09:38.229
to see it out of the corner of your eye,
1450
01:09:38.529 --> 01:09:39.529
you're like, oh, cool, let's go.
1451
01:09:40.989 --> 01:09:43.689
Instead of, okay, what the fuck? Hmm.
1452
01:09:44.420 --> 01:09:47.460
Like when you feel that intensity and that embrace, it's like, oh,
1453
01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:50.060
I'm turning right towards it. And when you do that,
1454
01:09:50.199 --> 01:09:52.680
it's less likely to build into like the shit show
1455
01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:55.279
that we experienced as youngers because.
1456
01:09:55.920 --> 01:09:57.460
You lean in immediately.
1457
01:09:57.560 --> 01:10:00.260
So you don't wade into your whole identity has to collapse.
1458
01:10:00.279 --> 01:10:02.479
You're like, oh, that little piece of my identity isn't working.
1459
01:10:02.979 --> 01:10:06.100
Well, I remember coming out of Groundbreakers. I told you
1460
01:10:06.119 --> 01:10:07.939
about this experience. I don't know that I've talked about
1461
01:10:07.970 --> 01:10:11.689
this before, but after Groundbreakers, seven days of 12 hours
1462
01:10:11.750 --> 01:10:15.170
a day on a fucking flower farm in Northern California.
1463
01:10:15.369 --> 01:10:17.069
You're making it sound very hippie.
1464
01:10:17.109 --> 01:10:21.449
Being scrutinized by you, heavily scrutinized by Joe and his
1465
01:10:21.689 --> 01:10:26.649
team of wonderful facilitators. When I came back into the
1466
01:10:26.689 --> 01:10:28.800
real world, one of the first things that I texted
1467
01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:31.340
you about was every time that I tell a lie,
1468
01:10:31.380 --> 01:10:33.579
no matter how small it feels like nails on a chalkboard,
1469
01:10:34.500 --> 01:10:44.779
there was this unbelievable attunement to everything incongruence and that
1470
01:10:45.119 --> 01:10:47.000
i've noticed i had david dader on the show a
1471
01:10:47.020 --> 01:10:50.500
little while ago um way the superior man guy and
1472
01:10:50.680 --> 01:10:54.399
if you actually look at david's uh cv he started
1473
01:10:54.439 --> 01:10:57.279
off in computer science doing ai in the 80s then
1474
01:10:57.319 --> 01:10:59.720
became an expert in math stuff then went and did
1475
01:10:59.760 --> 01:11:03.239
like tantric sex work for like a decade then came
1476
01:11:03.380 --> 01:11:05.920
out and did the masculinity stuff then went back into
1477
01:11:05.979 --> 01:11:08.279
computer science then came out and did some more stuff
1478
01:11:08.319 --> 01:11:10.770
now he lives in the woods in florida doing whatever
1479
01:11:10.779 --> 01:11:15.159
the fuck And I asked him this question. I was like,
1480
01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:17.779
draw the thread together for me across the journey of
1481
01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:19.819
your life, this arc. It doesn't seem like an arc.
1482
01:11:19.880 --> 01:11:23.039
It looks like a spider with a pen attached to
1483
01:11:23.060 --> 01:11:24.760
it that's being given too much cocaine. And it's like,
1484
01:11:25.640 --> 01:11:28.539
I run around this piece of paper. And he said,
1485
01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:31.760
the pain of being out of alignment with myself is
1486
01:11:31.819 --> 01:11:34.479
so great that I can't bear it. And that was
1487
01:11:34.500 --> 01:11:36.970
the same thing. Like the pain of being out of
1488
01:11:37.010 --> 01:11:39.729
alignment with what is true for me, with what I
1489
01:11:39.810 --> 01:11:42.729
want to do, with what I know. And it's not
1490
01:11:42.770 --> 01:11:46.949
just what you want, but his level of knowing, because
1491
01:11:47.149 --> 01:11:49.409
just following what you want without a good level of
1492
01:11:49.470 --> 01:11:52.649
self-awareness actually can result in you being in fucking rock
1493
01:11:52.670 --> 01:11:54.229
bottom living in your car, right? Like I want to
1494
01:11:54.250 --> 01:11:56.350
fuck that girl. I want to drive that motorcycle. I
1495
01:11:56.380 --> 01:11:59.260
want to, you know, have a car with the crazy
1496
01:11:59.439 --> 01:12:03.670
racing stripes on it. Um, But yeah, and that feels
1497
01:12:03.710 --> 01:12:08.050
like resonant to me that nails on a chalkboard that
1498
01:12:08.210 --> 01:12:13.069
at some point you just get, you kind of fall
1499
01:12:13.109 --> 01:12:16.880
into alignment and you become increasingly more attuned and attenuated
1500
01:12:16.920 --> 01:12:19.699
to the times when you're not. That seems like kind
1501
01:12:19.720 --> 01:12:20.159
of important.
1502
01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:22.539
I think that one of the big questions that people
1503
01:12:22.600 --> 01:12:25.479
have to like kind of drawing things back to the
1504
01:12:25.500 --> 01:12:28.260
initial image that we were looking at of like, you know,
1505
01:12:28.380 --> 01:12:29.140
is it fuck the game?
1506
01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:31.090
Is it win the game? Whatever it is.
1507
01:12:31.649 --> 01:12:33.390
I think one of the questions that people, what we're
1508
01:12:33.430 --> 01:12:36.189
really talking about, if we can summarize it, the question
1509
01:12:36.220 --> 01:12:37.739
that people need to ask themselves is what am I
1510
01:12:37.779 --> 01:12:39.539
going to do with the pain that exists inside of me?
1511
01:12:40.260 --> 01:12:41.020
What am I going to do with that?
1512
01:12:41.779 --> 01:12:43.899
And I think that for men, like one of the
1513
01:12:44.159 --> 01:12:46.159
things that I've seen time and time again is that
1514
01:12:47.340 --> 01:12:53.020
oftentimes men are taught that strength equals suppression, that suppression
1515
01:12:53.090 --> 01:12:54.949
equals strength, that the more I suppress, whatever it is
1516
01:12:54.970 --> 01:12:57.210
I'm feeling, whatever that makes me be perceived as weak,
1517
01:12:57.670 --> 01:13:00.090
that that is going to make me be perceived as stronger.
1518
01:13:00.289 --> 01:13:02.630
And that is a recipe for there's a whole bunch
1519
01:13:02.670 --> 01:13:04.829
of shit that's inside of me that I don't know
1520
01:13:04.850 --> 01:13:06.880
how to deal with, that I don't feel capable or
1521
01:13:06.909 --> 01:13:09.579
competent of dealing with, that I don't want other people
1522
01:13:09.619 --> 01:13:13.619
to see. And that becomes this sort of chaos inside
1523
01:13:13.659 --> 01:13:16.140
of them that they don't know how to reconcile with.
1524
01:13:16.579 --> 01:13:17.640
And so I do think that.
1525
01:13:17.539 --> 01:13:19.460
Regardless of whether you're trying to win the game or
1526
01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:22.359
fuck the game or whatever it is, at some point
1527
01:13:22.560 --> 01:13:29.479
there is a reckoning with the negative self-perception, the negative self-treatment,
1528
01:13:29.899 --> 01:13:32.800
the pain, the suffering that exists inside of you. And
1529
01:13:32.819 --> 01:13:36.060
I think that in some ways we all have different tacks,
1530
01:13:36.079 --> 01:13:38.199
although they seem to be very similar, on how to
1531
01:13:38.239 --> 01:13:40.989
go about doing that. But I think that in part
1532
01:13:41.189 --> 01:13:43.949
is the starting point. It's like needing to get to
1533
01:13:43.989 --> 01:13:45.409
that place of saying, okay, what am I going to
1534
01:13:45.449 --> 01:13:45.850
do with this?
1535
01:13:45.869 --> 01:13:47.949
Do you agree?
1536
01:13:49.090 --> 01:13:51.770
Yeah, I was thinking that I can answer your question
1537
01:13:51.800 --> 01:13:54.180
of what karma is now that he's teed it up.
1538
01:13:54.699 --> 01:13:57.720
Cool. I completely agree.
1539
01:13:57.880 --> 01:14:01.819
You have been edging us for the last 20 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Edge.
1540
01:14:02.380 --> 01:14:05.319
Edge all the way to the edge.
1541
01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:06.890
Edge is where we will continue to exist.
1542
01:14:06.909 --> 01:14:08.609
I've been turgid for so long now.
1543
01:14:08.630 --> 01:14:08.890
Yeah.
1544
01:14:10.529 --> 01:14:10.770
So.
1545
01:14:11.649 --> 01:14:14.270
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Bottom wisdom.
1568
01:15:14.880 --> 01:15:18.579
So I love I love this. I love your framing, Connor,
1569
01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:20.180
because it's like, what are you going to do with
1570
01:15:20.220 --> 01:15:21.000
the pain inside you?
1571
01:15:21.020 --> 01:15:21.739
Like it's there.
1572
01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:24.270
It ain't going anywhere. You can't get rid of it.
1573
01:15:26.239 --> 01:15:29.859
And so you said there is a reckoning. And I
1574
01:15:29.880 --> 01:15:32.920
think that's what karma is. Karma is the reckoning. So
1575
01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:37.359
karma is nothing more than the principle of cause and effect. Right.
1576
01:15:37.390 --> 01:15:39.770
So I think Newton's third law, every action has an
1577
01:15:39.850 --> 01:15:42.779
equal and opposite reaction. This is a principle of physics.
1578
01:15:42.819 --> 01:15:44.979
It's like cause and effect is part of the fabric
1579
01:15:45.020 --> 01:15:48.350
of the universe. And what gets confusing about karma is
1580
01:15:48.390 --> 01:15:51.789
that it like, I think people are very imprecise with
1581
01:15:51.869 --> 01:15:55.010
their understanding of it. They think it means like justice,
1582
01:15:55.090 --> 01:15:59.380
but karma is not human. It's not morality. It's not justice.
1583
01:15:59.529 --> 01:16:01.859
It's just cause and effect. If a ball goes up
1584
01:16:01.899 --> 01:16:05.560
in the air, a ball comes back down. So when
1585
01:16:05.640 --> 01:16:10.520
I was in maybe my third year of wannabe monk training,
1586
01:16:12.399 --> 01:16:16.319
I met someone who is pretty spiritually developed and I
1587
01:16:16.340 --> 01:16:18.039
was like, well, what do you think about like karma?
1588
01:16:18.159 --> 01:16:22.819
And he said, well, I can't stand behind any philosophy
1589
01:16:22.859 --> 01:16:26.600
that says if a woman is, it's her fault. And
1590
01:16:26.619 --> 01:16:29.979
so I think this speaks to the ignorance around karma
1591
01:16:30.279 --> 01:16:32.729
that like, it's like that karma is going to get your,
1592
01:16:32.779 --> 01:16:34.930
like if you, if I steal from you, like something
1593
01:16:34.970 --> 01:16:36.810
bad is going to happen to me. I think we
1594
01:16:36.829 --> 01:16:39.949
live in a world where the karma of stealing from
1595
01:16:39.989 --> 01:16:43.170
people is to become a billionaire. Like that's the karmic
1596
01:16:43.869 --> 01:16:48.100
price that you pay when you embezzle a country's funds, let's.
1597
01:16:47.960 --> 01:16:48.699
Say, right?
1598
01:16:49.859 --> 01:16:52.460
And so karma is nothing more than cause and effect.
1599
01:16:52.520 --> 01:16:55.420
In my exploration of karma, I tried to ask myself
1600
01:16:55.579 --> 01:16:57.909
one question if you want to understand. I mean, I
1601
01:16:57.909 --> 01:16:59.609
don't know if this will help you understand karma. It's
1602
01:16:59.649 --> 01:17:02.569
how I understand it. When does cause and effect end?
1603
01:17:04.149 --> 01:17:09.359
So if I have a patient who has depression, let's say,
1604
01:17:09.899 --> 01:17:13.939
So we know that there's like genetics that cause changes
1605
01:17:14.300 --> 01:17:19.510
their serotonin transporter structure in some way that predisposes them
1606
01:17:19.529 --> 01:17:21.210
to something. So that's like a cause, like this is
1607
01:17:21.270 --> 01:17:25.229
a cause that predisposes them to depression. We also know
1608
01:17:25.250 --> 01:17:28.409
that there are environmental factors like experiences like trauma or
1609
01:17:28.529 --> 01:17:32.449
adverse childhood experiences. Those are also causes that have effects.
1610
01:17:33.409 --> 01:17:37.060
And the really interesting thing is the further back you go,
1611
01:17:39.609 --> 01:17:41.289
I wasn't able to find.
1612
01:17:41.050 --> 01:17:43.130
A convincing way. I don't know.
1613
01:17:43.189 --> 01:17:45.850
I'm going to struggle to put this. So there are
1614
01:17:45.909 --> 01:17:48.210
all the effects that you have in your current life
1615
01:17:48.369 --> 01:17:51.909
that were pretty measurable. But what about all the things
1616
01:17:52.010 --> 01:17:56.270
about your life that are random? The time that this
1617
01:17:56.409 --> 01:18:00.279
consciousness embodied this set of neurons, who your parents are,
1618
01:18:01.039 --> 01:18:03.579
because does that suddenly become random at some point? And
1619
01:18:03.600 --> 01:18:05.460
that doesn't make any sense to me. Like, I think
1620
01:18:05.500 --> 01:18:08.020
it's just it's cause and effect all the way back,
1621
01:18:08.060 --> 01:18:10.149
like causing like And we sort of know this, and
1622
01:18:10.170 --> 01:18:12.170
this is why it gets kind of confusing. Like, duh, like,
1623
01:18:12.489 --> 01:18:14.439
you're your kid because you had your parents.
1624
01:18:14.449 --> 01:18:16.319
Well, that's a cause. And then that has a cause,
1625
01:18:16.359 --> 01:18:17.159
and that has a cause.
1626
01:18:17.659 --> 01:18:19.399
And if you sort of think about it, the closer
1627
01:18:19.460 --> 01:18:21.359
I got to the border of what is random, I
1628
01:18:21.380 --> 01:18:24.579
couldn't find any answer. That, like, nothing is random. You
1629
01:18:24.600 --> 01:18:26.779
can make an argument that things like Brownian motion are
1630
01:18:27.060 --> 01:18:30.390
random or like quarks are random or whatever. There seems
1631
01:18:30.449 --> 01:18:34.140
to be some randomness in the universe. But it also
1632
01:18:34.199 --> 01:18:40.520
seems like despite really sub-atomic levels, there's randomness, but somehow
1633
01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:43.109
order emerges, right? So we don't know exactly what's going
1634
01:18:43.189 --> 01:18:45.949
on there. And so the way that I think about karma,
1635
01:18:45.989 --> 01:18:48.369
because then people also get into questions of destiny and
1636
01:18:48.430 --> 01:18:50.090
free will and stuff like that. The way that I
1637
01:18:50.289 --> 01:18:55.149
really simply understand it is it's your choice whether you
1638
01:18:55.189 --> 01:18:59.300
jump off the cliff, but it's destiny whether you fall
1639
01:18:59.399 --> 01:19:03.180
after you make your decision, right? So like, and this
1640
01:19:03.239 --> 01:19:04.680
is where I think what a lot of people don't
1641
01:19:04.739 --> 01:19:07.319
realize and what I loved about your answer, Connor, is like,
1642
01:19:07.819 --> 01:19:11.079
you have a lot of pain inside you. How are
1643
01:19:11.100 --> 01:19:13.199
you going to deal with that? That is your karma.
1644
01:19:14.340 --> 01:19:17.710
All of us made choices, right? And this is where
1645
01:19:17.789 --> 01:19:21.590
maybe we're getting to agency. Like we made choices. You
1646
01:19:21.630 --> 01:19:28.210
decided to glue spikes onto your helmet. The alarm at
1647
01:19:28.210 --> 01:19:30.319
7 a.m., I did the stupid thing where I was like,
1648
01:19:30.340 --> 01:19:32.119
if I have an 8 a.m. class, I'll wake up, right?
1649
01:19:32.920 --> 01:19:34.340
I thought I could force myself, but I had the
1650
01:19:34.340 --> 01:19:34.579
7 a.m.
1651
01:19:34.619 --> 01:19:34.979
Alarm on.
1652
01:19:36.109 --> 01:19:37.670
The beginning of my Spanish final. And I was like, okay,
1653
01:19:37.710 --> 01:19:39.670
I got to go get, and I chose to.
1654
01:19:39.630 --> 01:19:40.710
Turn it off and go back to sleep.
1655
01:19:41.689 --> 01:19:44.630
We make choices and we have to live with the
1656
01:19:44.689 --> 01:19:48.569
consequences of our choices. And I think the biggest mistake
1657
01:19:48.609 --> 01:19:52.619
that I see so many men make is that they
1658
01:19:52.739 --> 01:19:58.199
try to get away from the choices that they make.
1659
01:19:58.960 --> 01:20:00.659
They lean away from the, you see it in the
1660
01:20:00.720 --> 01:20:03.770
corner of your eye, you turn away from it. And
1661
01:20:03.829 --> 01:20:05.489
Joe will tell you, I'm sure he can tell you
1662
01:20:05.510 --> 01:20:08.489
a thousand stories of how that's just going to make
1663
01:20:08.529 --> 01:20:11.460
things worse. You have pain inside you. You're trying to
1664
01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:13.939
run away from it. Ain't going to work. There is
1665
01:20:13.979 --> 01:20:17.659
a reckoning. And when I've learned this in my life,
1666
01:20:17.720 --> 01:20:19.800
and this has been like brutal, like we talk about
1667
01:20:19.859 --> 01:20:21.939
rock bottom. I feel like I'm still at rock bottom
1668
01:20:22.260 --> 01:20:25.340
in many ways, you know? And that's why when you're like,
1669
01:20:25.380 --> 01:20:28.359
would you want it again? I'm like, no, can I finally, finally,
1670
01:20:28.399 --> 01:20:29.130
can I get rid of it?
1671
01:20:29.989 --> 01:20:30.689
Can I be done?
1672
01:20:30.770 --> 01:20:35.020
Can I rest? And the answer is like, No, not yet.
1673
01:20:36.680 --> 01:20:40.079
And so karma is like, you can't run away from
1674
01:20:40.119 --> 01:20:43.500
the things that you do. And even running away, people
1675
01:20:43.619 --> 01:20:46.159
think that, okay, I can deal with it tomorrow. No,
1676
01:20:46.199 --> 01:20:52.250
you can't. What people don't understand is your brain is
1677
01:20:52.369 --> 01:20:55.130
plastic 24 hours a day, seven days a week, which
1678
01:20:55.170 --> 01:20:58.609
means it is constantly wiring. If you do not do
1679
01:20:58.670 --> 01:21:03.210
that task today, you will train yourself to not do tasks.
1680
01:21:05.100 --> 01:21:08.329
There is no such thing as waiting until tomorrow. We
1681
01:21:08.369 --> 01:21:11.569
assume that the organism that we are, that you will
1682
01:21:11.609 --> 01:21:15.930
be the same fundamental organism, just better rested, right? Slightly
1683
01:21:15.989 --> 01:21:19.909
more motivated. I've listened to modern wisdom. And so tomorrow
1684
01:21:20.369 --> 01:21:22.859
it'll do the work for me, which is the other
1685
01:21:22.880 --> 01:21:26.020
thing that I think we're all getting to. Nothing, no
1686
01:21:26.079 --> 01:21:29.279
amount of meditation, no amount of spending time in the Himalayas,
1687
01:21:29.340 --> 01:21:29.920
no amount of.
1688
01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:31.119
Whatever the fuck you were doing.
1689
01:21:32.250 --> 01:21:32.430
Right.
1690
01:21:32.449 --> 01:21:35.470
Chopping work, shadow work.
1691
01:21:35.750 --> 01:21:38.409
Bernard can get you halfway there, right? All this stuff
1692
01:21:38.430 --> 01:21:41.090
can get you halfway there, but nothing is a substitute
1693
01:21:41.869 --> 01:21:45.520
for that karmic reckoning. In that moment of like, you
1694
01:21:45.619 --> 01:21:47.380
have to take control at some point.
1695
01:21:48.579 --> 01:21:51.619
Can we get somewhat methodological?
1696
01:21:52.680 --> 01:21:53.159
Yeah.
1697
01:21:53.420 --> 01:21:54.800
I think there's one thing I want to touch on
1698
01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:56.590
before we do that, but I think it'll be part
1699
01:21:56.619 --> 01:21:58.810
of it. If we go back to that mountain thing,
1700
01:21:59.529 --> 01:22:02.850
I think there's also a developmental issue in the mountain.
1701
01:22:03.409 --> 01:22:06.020
When you're going up the mountain, you're learning agency. I
1702
01:22:06.420 --> 01:22:09.300
think that's a really important thing to learn before you
1703
01:22:09.340 --> 01:22:10.119
get to surrender.
1704
01:22:10.300 --> 01:22:13.399
I sent you Charlie Hooper's conception of this that he
1705
01:22:13.420 --> 01:22:15.560
gave me and it fucking broke me in half.
1706
01:22:15.720 --> 01:22:16.899
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1707
01:22:17.020 --> 01:22:20.430
So you go from victim to actor. And then he
1708
01:22:20.909 --> 01:22:23.909
goes from actor to emotion and then from emotion to spirit.
1709
01:22:24.279 --> 01:22:27.500
That's his, and he talks about it going down, but yeah.
1710
01:22:27.680 --> 01:22:30.260
I just think that there are like, there's natural things
1711
01:22:30.279 --> 01:22:32.399
that we need to learn. Like when I'm hearing you
1712
01:22:32.479 --> 01:22:35.560
talk about like, we've made choices and this is the
1713
01:22:35.579 --> 01:22:37.369
thing and you have to take responsibility for yourself.
1714
01:22:37.390 --> 01:22:40.350
That's like, that is, you said two things.
1715
01:22:40.390 --> 01:22:42.430
You said that and you also said something about like,
1716
01:22:42.470 --> 01:22:44.449
you're constantly having to let go of things that you've
1717
01:22:44.489 --> 01:22:48.899
learned as growth. My words for that is, Every epiphany
1718
01:22:48.939 --> 01:22:53.640
is a rut waiting to happen. And it's like the
1719
01:22:53.699 --> 01:22:57.359
epiphany of I have agency. This is my responsibility. It's
1720
01:22:57.699 --> 01:23:01.420
on me is an incredibly important epiphany, but it can
1721
01:23:01.460 --> 01:23:05.659
become a rut if it doesn't turn into eventually it's
1722
01:23:05.720 --> 01:23:06.260
all grace.
1723
01:23:06.340 --> 01:23:10.159
It's all surrender. It's all like, like all of this
1724
01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:10.699
is blessing.
1725
01:23:10.720 --> 01:23:11.500
I had no idea.
1726
01:23:11.520 --> 01:23:12.699
I chose none of it.
1727
01:23:13.359 --> 01:23:16.220
And so it's an interesting thing. It's that the thought
1728
01:23:16.260 --> 01:23:20.140
processes that we have, it's not a question of they
1729
01:23:20.220 --> 01:23:21.939
right or wrong. Because you asked me, you're like, did
1730
01:23:21.970 --> 01:23:23.970
you agree with that? And my brain doesn't even work
1731
01:23:23.979 --> 01:23:26.329
like that. I'm like, what is it that, how is
1732
01:23:26.369 --> 01:23:28.529
that what he's saying truthful is how I.
1733
01:23:28.470 --> 01:23:30.569
Think about it. Like, oh, let me understand the truth
1734
01:23:30.609 --> 01:23:38.630
of that. Because there is no right idea or wrong idea.
1735
01:23:38.710 --> 01:23:41.949
There is just, is this idea helpful? Does it create
1736
01:23:41.970 --> 01:23:46.420
freedom for me today? Because it might be enslavement tomorrow.
1737
01:23:47.539 --> 01:23:50.359
And so I'm constantly seeing the world that way. And
1738
01:23:50.380 --> 01:23:52.460
I think that that mountain is the same thing, that
1739
01:23:52.500 --> 01:23:54.800
there's certain things when you're climbing up the mountain that
1740
01:23:54.819 --> 01:23:55.899
give you freedom. Yeah.
1741
01:23:56.020 --> 01:23:56.520
Doing the thing.
1742
01:23:56.800 --> 01:23:57.340
Doing the thing.
1743
01:23:57.359 --> 01:23:59.380
And then letting go of the thing on the other side.
1744
01:23:59.859 --> 01:24:04.600
This is something that I found incredibly difficult and painful.
1745
01:24:04.649 --> 01:24:05.939
And it's one of the reasons I like to talk
1746
01:24:05.979 --> 01:24:10.670
about the lonely chapter that if, and arriving is kind
1747
01:24:10.689 --> 01:24:14.380
of part of this too, realizing that the, the tools
1748
01:24:14.420 --> 01:24:16.899
that you relied on that pulled you out of the
1749
01:24:16.939 --> 01:24:19.659
last quagmire, and now the things that you have to
1750
01:24:19.699 --> 01:24:22.159
pull yourself out of again, hang on, you're telling me
1751
01:24:22.199 --> 01:24:24.670
this thing, and there's a lot of value that's wrapped
1752
01:24:24.710 --> 01:24:26.329
up in it, almost like a morality of this thing.
1753
01:24:26.369 --> 01:24:29.510
This thing is good, was good to me. And now
1754
01:24:29.550 --> 01:24:37.409
you're telling me that my fellow escapee has become my captor. Fuck.
1755
01:24:38.140 --> 01:24:38.300
Yeah.
1756
01:24:39.199 --> 01:24:43.270
Precisely, actually, I think it's more precise is, And now
1757
01:24:43.350 --> 01:24:45.449
that is only a tool that's good about 5% of
1758
01:24:45.489 --> 01:24:48.310
the time. So I can't let go of it all
1759
01:24:48.350 --> 01:24:50.369
the way either. I can't let go of it all
1760
01:24:50.390 --> 01:24:50.909
the way either.
1761
01:24:51.020 --> 01:24:53.029
Yes, I've got to feather the throttle, but now I
1762
01:24:53.060 --> 01:24:56.159
need to grow a third leg and actually be able
1763
01:24:56.199 --> 01:24:57.920
to put another throttle on at the same time.
1764
01:24:58.619 --> 01:25:02.840
So I think there's an attitude here that, speaking of methodology,
1765
01:25:02.859 --> 01:25:06.439
which I think we should pivot to, people have this
1766
01:25:06.600 --> 01:25:10.449
idea of wanting to be done. And I hate that
1767
01:25:10.489 --> 01:25:13.449
we live in a society that like propagates this idea,
1768
01:25:13.510 --> 01:25:18.649
like passive income, retirement, right? People will sometimes ask me,
1769
01:25:18.649 --> 01:25:21.609
because we talk about rock bottom and they're like, I
1770
01:25:21.649 --> 01:25:25.260
remember I felt very envious and intimidated and ashamed because
1771
01:25:25.319 --> 01:25:27.319
someone that I went to high school with became a
1772
01:25:27.359 --> 01:25:29.840
doctor while I was, finished medical school while I was
1773
01:25:29.859 --> 01:25:35.100
still applying. So I started med school at 28. And
1774
01:25:35.159 --> 01:25:37.770
so they were done by then. And so we met
1775
01:25:37.810 --> 01:25:40.260
for Christmas like I hadn't seen her in 10 years.
1776
01:25:40.319 --> 01:25:41.369
And I was like, oh, what are you up to?
1777
01:25:41.399 --> 01:25:44.439
And she's like, yeah, I'm finishing. I'm done with medical school.
1778
01:25:44.470 --> 01:25:45.819
You know, I'm moving on to residency.
1779
01:25:45.859 --> 01:25:47.569
What are you up to? And I was like, I'm applying.
1780
01:25:49.729 --> 01:25:54.529
And so, you know, I think people feel exhausted. And
1781
01:25:54.569 --> 01:25:57.350
so they hope for this day when the work is done.
1782
01:25:58.970 --> 01:26:00.750
Dirty fuel. Dirty fuel.
1783
01:26:01.770 --> 01:26:03.489
And so there's a sort of like, OK, when can
1784
01:26:03.560 --> 01:26:04.909
I be done? When can I what do I need
1785
01:26:04.939 --> 01:26:07.119
to do? Like what amount of passive income? What amount
1786
01:26:07.140 --> 01:26:08.500
of this? Like, when can I.
1787
01:26:08.640 --> 01:26:11.279
What amount of meditation? What amount of self-love? Yeah.
1788
01:26:11.319 --> 01:26:13.659
So how do I do all the right things so
1789
01:26:13.699 --> 01:26:15.279
that I can be at peace forever? And then I
1790
01:26:15.279 --> 01:26:18.180
have to stop working to be at peace, right? How
1791
01:26:18.199 --> 01:26:21.439
do I attain enlightenment? Which is, I love Joe's quote,
1792
01:26:21.960 --> 01:26:28.520
porn for perfectionists. Also, a thing that I, on the surface,
1793
01:26:28.560 --> 01:26:29.949
disagree with, but I'm sure we don't.
1794
01:26:30.770 --> 01:26:31.369
But so.
1795
01:26:33.079 --> 01:26:35.380
And so I think part of this idea of it
1796
01:26:35.420 --> 01:26:37.520
becomes part of your tool belt is like the work.
1797
01:26:37.560 --> 01:26:41.439
And this sounds so exhausting, but it's only the work
1798
01:26:41.479 --> 01:26:44.899
is never done. That's what I that's why also I'm
1799
01:26:44.939 --> 01:26:47.489
kind of like, yeah, I'm actually OK with not having
1800
01:26:47.529 --> 01:26:49.529
more fear or whatever, because like to me, it really
1801
01:26:49.590 --> 01:26:52.310
feels and this was this has been a brutal realization
1802
01:26:52.369 --> 01:26:54.609
for for me and my wife, which we're actually OK with.
1803
01:26:54.649 --> 01:26:57.010
It was like so many people in my family. So,
1804
01:26:57.029 --> 01:26:59.810
you know, if you're a doctor, like people call you right.
1805
01:27:00.520 --> 01:27:03.119
And so we're just, we're just always putting out fires.
1806
01:27:03.560 --> 01:27:04.720
Hello, son. I have earache.
1807
01:27:05.180 --> 01:27:05.699
Yeah. Yeah.
1808
01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:06.180
Right.
1809
01:27:06.579 --> 01:27:11.520
And, and so erectile dysfunction, what do I do?
1810
01:27:11.539 --> 01:27:13.939
Or sometimes I get calls, right? Cause I have to
1811
01:27:14.100 --> 01:27:16.479
podcast like yours. And then people will ask me the
1812
01:27:16.520 --> 01:27:20.050
only way I can achieve a climax is through anal sex.
1813
01:27:20.109 --> 01:27:20.609
What do I do?
1814
01:27:20.630 --> 01:27:21.250
Right.
1815
01:27:21.270 --> 01:27:23.449
So, and getting that call from a 65 year old
1816
01:27:23.529 --> 01:27:24.850
person in your family is really weird.
1817
01:27:24.989 --> 01:27:27.869
Have anal sex. Isn't that an easy solution?
1818
01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:33.579
Well, it seems like a simple sentence to squat.
1819
01:27:33.739 --> 01:27:37.960
I'm confused. This is not going to be what people
1820
01:27:38.159 --> 01:27:42.289
expected at all. Here's the challenge. This is my logical
1821
01:27:42.329 --> 01:27:43.770
Brian Kipkin. I apologize.
1822
01:27:44.010 --> 01:27:46.590
No, I mean, I understand why it's confusing for you, Joe,
1823
01:27:46.630 --> 01:27:49.300
because I'm sure that that's something that's available to you
1824
01:27:49.310 --> 01:27:53.199
at all times with... given how manly and charming you are,
1825
01:27:53.260 --> 01:27:57.479
but for some of us fuckers who weren't singers and
1826
01:27:57.550 --> 01:28:00.470
riding motorcycles, that's just not an option all the time.
1827
01:28:00.489 --> 01:28:03.850
I was assuming it was your aunt, not, not your uncle.
1828
01:28:04.090 --> 01:28:08.069
Oh, okay. Sorry. We're good.
1829
01:28:08.970 --> 01:28:12.260
So yeah, we can, I mean, I think we should
1830
01:28:12.300 --> 01:28:15.840
do round two where we don't have to stay on track.
1831
01:28:15.899 --> 01:28:17.100
Like what, what fun is that?
1832
01:28:17.119 --> 01:28:22.420
Um, so, I do think it would be interesting for
1833
01:28:22.460 --> 01:28:24.619
us to talk about sex, like in a, not now,
1834
01:28:24.720 --> 01:28:25.359
but like later.
1835
01:28:25.659 --> 01:28:26.500
Yeah. You know, refund.
1836
01:28:26.840 --> 01:28:30.520
Um, so, so I don't even, what was I talking about?
1837
01:28:31.479 --> 01:28:32.930
Uh, you, when you're a doctor, people call up.
1838
01:28:33.460 --> 01:28:33.680
Yeah.
1839
01:28:33.720 --> 01:28:35.729
So, so I, I think this idea of the work
1840
01:28:35.770 --> 01:28:36.159
being done.
1841
01:28:36.189 --> 01:28:37.010
Yeah.
1842
01:28:37.149 --> 01:28:40.939
And I think changing your relationship to that. right changing
1843
01:28:40.960 --> 01:28:43.939
your relationship to and this is why like like life
1844
01:28:43.979 --> 01:28:46.300
has smacked me in the face like over and over
1845
01:28:46.340 --> 01:28:48.369
and over again i've tried to be done i've tried
1846
01:28:48.409 --> 01:28:49.750
to be done i've tried to be done and like
1847
01:28:49.789 --> 01:28:52.029
i'm just not i'm not done it's like life is
1848
01:28:52.069 --> 01:28:54.029
not going to let me be done like no i think.
1849
01:28:53.970 --> 01:28:56.390
I said to a client last week like who told
1850
01:28:56.430 --> 01:28:58.720
you that you get to be done learning how to
1851
01:28:58.760 --> 01:28:59.829
be a human Yeah.
1852
01:29:00.010 --> 01:29:01.630
Like what, where is that?
1853
01:29:02.010 --> 01:29:03.710
Like when the manual is like, did you get a
1854
01:29:03.729 --> 01:29:05.989
manual that said that? Because I think like we just,
1855
01:29:06.050 --> 01:29:08.710
we continue to go through these different stages. And I
1856
01:29:08.770 --> 01:29:11.010
do think that it's the trick of the ego or
1857
01:29:11.090 --> 01:29:14.850
the personality, the identity that's, it's always looking for some
1858
01:29:14.949 --> 01:29:17.329
finality of let me get to this place and then
1859
01:29:17.350 --> 01:29:19.869
it'll be completely okay. And then I won't have to
1860
01:29:19.909 --> 01:29:22.409
continue to go. I won't have to deal with this anymore.
1861
01:29:22.729 --> 01:29:26.109
I think that's the, that's the, that's the ego.
1862
01:29:26.810 --> 01:29:31.979
Like that, that, that particular thing is, If, if it's
1863
01:29:32.020 --> 01:29:33.859
the ego's way of reinstating itself.
1864
01:29:34.310 --> 01:29:34.649
Totally.
1865
01:29:34.850 --> 01:29:37.369
And, and, and the other thing about it is I
1866
01:29:38.409 --> 01:29:39.949
think about the same thing, but I think about it
1867
01:29:40.029 --> 01:29:40.609
slightly differently.
1868
01:29:40.630 --> 01:29:43.130
It was like, when does an Oak tree stop evolving?
1869
01:29:43.550 --> 01:29:44.250
When is it done?
1870
01:29:44.550 --> 01:29:47.909
When is like any life form done life in general
1871
01:29:47.949 --> 01:29:51.859
done the planet done? Like there's just like, there's no done.
1872
01:29:52.680 --> 01:29:55.579
I don't even get that concept, but I remember striving
1873
01:29:55.640 --> 01:29:57.159
like hell for a decade.
1874
01:29:56.819 --> 01:29:57.399
To be done.
1875
01:29:57.720 --> 01:29:57.939
Yeah.
1876
01:29:58.479 --> 01:29:58.699
Yeah.
1877
01:29:58.979 --> 01:30:00.739
Yeah, I mean, I think in some ways, not to
1878
01:30:00.800 --> 01:30:03.340
be like esoteric about anything, but I think in some ways.
1879
01:30:03.380 --> 01:30:06.180
Let's do it, bro. Please.
1880
01:30:06.199 --> 01:30:07.739
I think in some ways, like this is part of
1881
01:30:07.899 --> 01:30:11.300
what is happening in culture and society is that we
1882
01:30:11.340 --> 01:30:14.199
have olders and not elders. We have a whole bunch
1883
01:30:14.220 --> 01:30:16.420
of people that at some point in their life, they're like,
1884
01:30:16.659 --> 01:30:20.439
I'm good. I'm not going to continue to mature at all.
1885
01:30:20.579 --> 01:30:22.560
I'm not interested in that game because it's really fucking hard.
1886
01:30:23.279 --> 01:30:25.460
And it is really fucking hard. And I think that
1887
01:30:25.479 --> 01:30:32.449
that's something... that has, because the therapeutic industrial complex and
1888
01:30:32.489 --> 01:30:36.789
psychology has been commodified, it's very easy to sell people
1889
01:30:37.050 --> 01:30:41.029
on quick fixes and, you know, end points and outcomes.
1890
01:30:41.229 --> 01:30:43.789
And we forget to teach them that part of this
1891
01:30:43.890 --> 01:30:47.130
really is about maturation and that maturation.
1892
01:30:46.710 --> 01:30:48.689
Isn't about you. It's not about you.
1893
01:30:48.840 --> 01:30:52.000
It's about you being able to be of service in
1894
01:30:52.039 --> 01:30:54.880
a greater, deeper way to other people, to community, to world,
1895
01:30:54.939 --> 01:30:57.770
et cetera. But that, I think that's really gotten lost
1896
01:30:57.829 --> 01:31:01.189
in the sauce of, you know, online.
1897
01:31:01.229 --> 01:31:02.369
It's up the mountain stuff.
1898
01:31:02.750 --> 01:31:02.850
Yeah.
1899
01:31:02.869 --> 01:31:04.489
It's like, oh, you're going to be better. You're going
1900
01:31:04.510 --> 01:31:06.489
to be fixed. And that's super alluring.
1901
01:31:06.529 --> 01:31:08.710
And so I think, I think sometimes we need that though,
1902
01:31:08.729 --> 01:31:10.670
to like hook people in and be like, okay, come
1903
01:31:10.770 --> 01:31:11.050
on in.
1904
01:31:11.090 --> 01:31:11.649
Like you're going to.
1905
01:31:12.050 --> 01:31:13.729
So, so I mean, I think, you know, you asked
1906
01:31:13.770 --> 01:31:15.510
your client, did you get a manual? I think the
1907
01:31:15.550 --> 01:31:18.899
problem is exactly what you've said is that. Actually, most
1908
01:31:18.939 --> 01:31:21.140
people do get manuals. Like, I'm going to sell you
1909
01:31:21.180 --> 01:31:22.800
one for $ 99. 99 on the internet.
1910
01:31:22.840 --> 01:31:23.220
Like, right?
1911
01:31:23.260 --> 01:31:24.680
So everyone is selling you.
1912
01:31:24.920 --> 01:31:26.560
Well, the most dangerous manual of all is the one
1913
01:31:26.579 --> 01:31:29.119
you don't realize is a manual. It's the values that
1914
01:31:29.180 --> 01:31:33.810
you just imbibed that you, through osmosis, took in as
1915
01:31:33.850 --> 01:31:36.149
you were growing up. And then this becomes this weird
1916
01:31:36.170 --> 01:31:37.949
kind of source code that you have to go in
1917
01:31:37.989 --> 01:31:40.750
and unpick. You think, fuck, I didn't even choose to
1918
01:31:40.789 --> 01:31:42.489
learn this. I didn't even know I was learning it.
1919
01:31:42.739 --> 01:31:44.760
At least if it's the $ 99 thing on the internet,
1920
01:31:44.779 --> 01:31:46.479
there was some volition. I had to put your credit
1921
01:31:46.500 --> 01:31:49.479
card in or watch the Jordan Peterson video or whatever.
1922
01:31:49.939 --> 01:31:51.539
The stuff that you have, and I think this is
1923
01:31:51.579 --> 01:31:54.439
why we talked about this yesterday, modern therapy culture, and
1924
01:31:54.699 --> 01:31:58.840
the concern that some people have that the abundance in
1925
01:31:58.979 --> 01:32:01.300
use of therapy is causing people to cut their parents
1926
01:32:01.460 --> 01:32:07.829
off is, well, that's me unpicking a relatively nuclear hammer
1927
01:32:08.090 --> 01:32:10.090
to unpick a lot of the source code that was
1928
01:32:10.130 --> 01:32:11.550
inside of me. Yeah.
1929
01:32:11.590 --> 01:32:15.220
And I think kind of like you said about outcomes,
1930
01:32:15.699 --> 01:32:19.800
we are becoming a society that's outcome oriented. It's like valuations,
1931
01:32:19.840 --> 01:32:23.020
what's the stock market, what's the KPI. Even with therapy
1932
01:32:23.039 --> 01:32:26.380
and the programs that we develop, they're really successful and
1933
01:32:26.779 --> 01:32:29.310
they're focused on outcomes, right? Because that's how you measure,
1934
01:32:29.329 --> 01:32:30.510
that's how you make predictions.
1935
01:32:30.930 --> 01:32:34.069
It's also how you motivate. And this is one of
1936
01:32:34.109 --> 01:32:36.789
the things that having three people that have done it
1937
01:32:37.149 --> 01:32:40.550
you know, total lifetime self-work of like more than some
1938
01:32:40.750 --> 01:32:43.510
people that are listening to this. Like you guys between
1939
01:32:43.529 --> 01:32:45.390
you will have meditated for more time than some people
1940
01:32:45.449 --> 01:32:47.899
listening to this have been alive. Like, which I don't know,
1941
01:32:47.939 --> 01:32:51.939
maybe close. Someone's in the car. So one of the
1942
01:32:51.960 --> 01:32:54.140
problems that you end up with there is like trying
1943
01:32:54.180 --> 01:32:56.279
to shortcut through the mountain or tell people the mountain
1944
01:32:56.300 --> 01:32:58.619
doesn't exist. And it's like, yeah, I know, but the
1945
01:32:58.659 --> 01:33:01.270
world has never shown me that I'm even worth anything.
1946
01:33:01.630 --> 01:33:03.989
And part of me just wants some motherfucking proof.
1947
01:33:04.229 --> 01:33:04.409
Right.
1948
01:33:04.770 --> 01:33:08.189
Like I just want some proof. I can do things.
1949
01:33:08.310 --> 01:33:11.010
That's where climbing the mountain is really important. Can we
1950
01:33:11.029 --> 01:33:12.810
break this down into two pieces that I think might
1951
01:33:12.829 --> 01:33:16.789
be helpful for the listener? One is, I think everybody
1952
01:33:16.810 --> 01:33:19.880
needs to develop a sense of self-worth, which is relational-based.
1953
01:33:19.939 --> 01:33:22.880
It's attachment-based, in my opinion. And then second, people need
1954
01:33:22.899 --> 01:33:27.399
to develop self-esteem. They need to have some level of confidence, competence, capability.
1955
01:33:27.899 --> 01:33:31.319
And those two modalities are very different modalities to build
1956
01:33:31.380 --> 01:33:34.789
and develop. And oftentimes, what's happening for a lot of
1957
01:33:34.850 --> 01:33:38.060
people is that they're lacking in a sense of worth
1958
01:33:38.140 --> 01:33:41.890
and value and how they're trying to acquire that or
1959
01:33:42.350 --> 01:33:48.270
develop it is through stacking up competencies and proficiencies and
1960
01:33:48.289 --> 01:33:52.579
being very capable And it doesn't actually help them fill
1961
01:33:52.600 --> 01:33:54.260
the gap of I have inherent worth.
1962
01:33:54.300 --> 01:33:55.079
I actually matter.
1963
01:33:55.380 --> 01:33:57.539
Because you're constantly going to have to perform. If people
1964
01:33:57.579 --> 01:33:59.659
only love me for what I do, that means that
1965
01:33:59.720 --> 01:34:01.739
no one loves me for who I am. And also,
1966
01:34:01.859 --> 01:34:04.229
if I stopped doing what I do, the love that
1967
01:34:04.270 --> 01:34:06.930
I do have, because it's contingent on me doing the thing,
1968
01:34:07.710 --> 01:34:09.270
requires me to continue to do the thing. And if
1969
01:34:09.310 --> 01:34:10.789
I stopped doing the thing, the love would go away.
1970
01:34:10.829 --> 01:34:13.130
Yeah. And so you better keep podcasting. So you better
1971
01:34:13.170 --> 01:34:14.109
keep podcasting.
1972
01:34:14.170 --> 01:34:15.569
I have 1,200 episodes in. What the fuck do you
1973
01:34:15.590 --> 01:34:17.050
think I'm doing? Yeah.
1974
01:34:18.800 --> 01:34:21.920
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. So I mean, this
1975
01:34:21.979 --> 01:34:24.689
is something I realized recently. I've been working with people
1976
01:34:24.729 --> 01:34:28.789
for a while and solving your problems doesn't solve your problems.
1977
01:34:29.949 --> 01:34:32.170
You know, so like if you have low self-esteem and
1978
01:34:32.430 --> 01:34:35.029
this is what we see with imposter syndrome. So what's
1979
01:34:35.069 --> 01:34:37.569
really interesting is imposter syndrome, I went to Tufts for
1980
01:34:37.609 --> 01:34:40.829
medical school and Harvard for residency. And the rate of
1981
01:34:40.869 --> 01:34:45.329
imposter syndrome at Harvard is astronomically higher, right? So when
1982
01:34:45.350 --> 01:34:48.310
you have this self-esteem problem and you start racking up
1983
01:34:48.840 --> 01:34:55.649
substitutes for a self esteem, I think is a good
1984
01:34:55.689 --> 01:34:57.329
word to start, but I think we're going to get
1985
01:34:57.390 --> 01:35:01.130
methodologically deeper than that. Um, you know, it just, it
1986
01:35:01.149 --> 01:35:04.409
just doesn't work. And there is, there is a, there
1987
01:35:04.449 --> 01:35:07.920
is a role. And this is what I've seen. Each
1988
01:35:08.000 --> 01:35:10.760
thing has its place in the moment that you start
1989
01:35:10.880 --> 01:35:15.039
substituting one thing for another thing. So competence, success in
1990
01:35:15.079 --> 01:35:17.000
the world. I'm not anti these things. I don't think
1991
01:35:17.020 --> 01:35:19.229
any of us is anti these things. Right. Climbing to
1992
01:35:19.250 --> 01:35:21.470
the top of the mountain has a lot of value
1993
01:35:21.489 --> 01:35:22.729
because once you're at the top of the mountain, you've
1994
01:35:22.770 --> 01:35:25.590
got a good view. But don't the top of the
1995
01:35:25.609 --> 01:35:27.970
mountain is not a substitute for the bottom of the mountain.
1996
01:35:29.500 --> 01:35:34.140
And so by all means, strive, achieve their methodologies.
1997
01:35:33.460 --> 01:35:33.979
To do that.
1998
01:35:34.479 --> 01:35:36.699
But I completely agree with what Connor is saying, that
1999
01:35:36.739 --> 01:35:39.460
like that is not a substitute, which I think is
2000
01:35:39.500 --> 01:35:41.350
the theme that's kind of floating the surface is like
2001
01:35:41.390 --> 01:35:42.590
you can't dodge the work.
2002
01:35:44.020 --> 01:35:45.680
And a lot of the time, the work that you
2003
01:35:45.699 --> 01:35:47.539
think is the work is not the work that you
2004
01:35:47.579 --> 01:35:49.199
think is the work is a substitute for what the
2005
01:35:49.260 --> 01:35:51.920
actual work is. Like if I just do the grit
2006
01:35:52.050 --> 01:35:55.930
and spit and sawdust thing, I had this line that, um,
2007
01:35:56.210 --> 01:35:59.500
people seem to like where I kind of called out, uh,
2008
01:35:59.609 --> 01:36:04.840
endurance athletes. Um, people are prepared to deal with discomfort
2009
01:36:05.180 --> 01:36:06.800
as long as they get to choose the flavor of
2010
01:36:06.819 --> 01:36:11.409
their discomfort that I can do hard things. is very
2011
01:36:11.789 --> 01:36:14.329
easy in some ways to the ultra runner who will
2012
01:36:14.369 --> 01:36:16.909
go and train and do a 50 K warmup for
2013
01:36:16.930 --> 01:36:19.430
the race they've got next weekend, but won't go home
2014
01:36:19.630 --> 01:36:21.350
and have a difficult conversation with their spouse.
2015
01:36:21.909 --> 01:36:22.649
You're okay. Aha.
2016
01:36:22.970 --> 01:36:26.010
That's interesting. I do hard things, but only in this
2017
01:36:26.069 --> 01:36:28.869
domain over here, not in this one that's right in
2018
01:36:28.890 --> 01:36:31.010
front of me. So the work is not always the work.
2019
01:36:31.850 --> 01:36:33.979
I mean, I was thinking about what Joe said and,
2020
01:36:34.149 --> 01:36:39.590
you know, um, that, One of the most dangerous things
2021
01:36:39.649 --> 01:36:41.329
I think that you're kind of alluding to is like
2022
01:36:41.409 --> 01:36:47.710
we stop allowing ourselves to want things that we can't have. Right.
2023
01:36:47.729 --> 01:36:50.590
So if I'm afraid that I can't achieve something, I
2024
01:36:50.630 --> 01:36:53.010
will trick myself into not wanting it, which I think
2025
01:36:53.069 --> 01:36:57.029
methodologically is. And I'd love to hear your expansion on that.
2026
01:36:57.229 --> 01:37:00.670
But I think methodologically is the is the mechanism by
2027
01:37:00.729 --> 01:37:04.149
which people fall into your problem. I don't I can't
2028
01:37:04.220 --> 01:37:07.680
get my parents to love me. And instead of facing
2029
01:37:07.720 --> 01:37:10.119
that full on, so what I'm going to do is
2030
01:37:10.319 --> 01:37:11.319
try to make them proud.
2031
01:37:11.859 --> 01:37:14.359
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.
2032
01:37:14.399 --> 01:37:16.479
But I think that's what- I would say the place
2033
01:37:16.520 --> 01:37:20.149
I would expand there is that's because wanting is one
2034
01:37:20.170 --> 01:37:26.850
of the most difficult emotions that people, they resist that emotion.
2035
01:37:26.869 --> 01:37:30.220
They resist feeling that emotion. To actually sit down- To want.
2036
01:37:30.579 --> 01:37:33.500
To actually sit down, like right now, And say, I'm
2037
01:37:33.560 --> 01:37:36.380
just going to allow myself to deeply want. I don't
2038
01:37:36.420 --> 01:37:40.199
even care if it's anything. Want nothing, but just have
2039
01:37:40.260 --> 01:37:45.199
that feeling of wanting. Most people find that incredibly uncomfortable.
2040
01:37:45.220 --> 01:37:52.229
That's really interesting because much of the concerns about malaise
2041
01:37:52.270 --> 01:37:56.260
for modern people is in desire. Desiring, desiring the wrong thing,
2042
01:37:56.640 --> 01:37:59.060
taking what society tells me that I want. At the
2043
01:37:59.079 --> 01:38:02.039
very beginning of this conversation, it's like, what do I want? Yeah.
2044
01:38:02.319 --> 01:38:04.569
So let's take this nicotine, for instance. Like if I
2045
01:38:04.590 --> 01:38:06.949
pull this nicotine out of here, I'm like, cool.
2046
01:38:07.789 --> 01:38:09.329
If I want that thing and then I just put
2047
01:38:09.350 --> 01:38:11.250
it in my mouth, I'm done with the feeling of wanting.
2048
01:38:13.050 --> 01:38:15.649
Keep that right there. Look at it the entire time.
2049
01:38:15.930 --> 01:38:19.619
Want it the entire time. That's feeling wanting. So I'm
2050
01:38:19.659 --> 01:38:22.750
not suggesting that the problem isn't like just grabbing the
2051
01:38:22.770 --> 01:38:25.149
thing that you want right away. It's actually the feeling
2052
01:38:25.189 --> 01:38:27.659
of wanting is something that most people do not want
2053
01:38:27.699 --> 01:38:28.159
to sit with.
2054
01:38:28.739 --> 01:38:28.880
Why?
2055
01:38:30.460 --> 01:38:33.380
Because it's one of the few things, one of the
2056
01:38:33.420 --> 01:38:36.319
few emotional experiences where you have to acknowledge that you
2057
01:38:36.380 --> 01:38:39.819
are not in control. You're not in control of your wanting.
2058
01:38:39.840 --> 01:38:42.539
You're not in control of your need. You're not in control.
2059
01:38:43.159 --> 01:38:45.229
Gratitude is another place where you're not in control. You
2060
01:38:45.239 --> 01:38:49.590
have to acknowledge something greater than yourself. And people, they'd like,
2061
01:38:50.069 --> 01:38:55.220
destroys the entire identity aspect of it's me i've got
2062
01:38:55.239 --> 01:38:57.560
to do it why did i fuck up you had
2063
01:38:57.619 --> 01:39:00.359
this great word for it you you talked about thinking
2064
01:39:00.399 --> 01:39:02.220
about yourself is kind of at the base of all
2065
01:39:02.260 --> 01:39:06.859
the all the in our interview in our conversation you're
2066
01:39:07.039 --> 01:39:12.140
thinking about yourself and constantly having self-referential thoughts creates depression
2067
01:39:12.180 --> 01:39:15.539
and a whole bit like narcissism self-referencing.
2068
01:39:15.140 --> 01:39:17.479
A default mode network activation exactly.
2069
01:39:17.100 --> 01:39:21.199
Yeah and and Something like allowing yourself to feel wanting
2070
01:39:21.359 --> 01:39:23.920
actually starts deteriorating your identity.
2071
01:39:24.819 --> 01:39:26.109
And that's why people don't want to do it.
2072
01:39:26.229 --> 01:39:29.590
What desires inside of ourselves should we trust? Say it again.
2073
01:39:29.729 --> 01:39:32.149
What desires, what wants should we trust?
2074
01:39:32.189 --> 01:39:34.489
I'm not saying trust or distrust. I say feel.
2075
01:39:34.789 --> 01:39:35.210
Right.
2076
01:39:35.270 --> 01:39:36.529
Okay. Feel the thing.
2077
01:39:36.569 --> 01:39:38.850
It's not about taking action or not taking action. Are
2078
01:39:38.890 --> 01:39:41.149
you willing to completely feel the thing? And if you
2079
01:39:41.170 --> 01:39:43.869
take a want, any want, and you say, okay, what's
2080
01:39:43.909 --> 01:39:46.800
the need behind that want? So you start off, I want.
2081
01:39:48.760 --> 01:39:51.560
I want porn, right? Okay, what's the need behind that want? Oh,
2082
01:39:51.659 --> 01:39:55.630
I want to feel calm. Okay, what's the need behind
2083
01:39:55.670 --> 01:39:58.670
that want? Oh, underneath calmness, I want to feel like
2084
01:39:58.710 --> 01:40:01.590
I actually have like some sort of connection. Okay, what's
2085
01:40:01.609 --> 01:40:04.470
the need behind connection? What you'll notice is all that
2086
01:40:04.510 --> 01:40:07.670
those superficial wants are all just strategies to get to
2087
01:40:07.710 --> 01:40:11.460
some of your basic core wants. But because we don't
2088
01:40:11.500 --> 01:40:15.000
want to feel that core want, that pain, we just
2089
01:40:15.079 --> 01:40:16.560
move to the thing that's on top.
2090
01:40:16.619 --> 01:40:17.539
Okay, I'll take the porn.
2091
01:40:17.760 --> 01:40:17.880
Yeah.
2092
01:40:18.939 --> 01:40:20.800
Can I expand? Yeah, please. Okay.
2093
01:40:20.810 --> 01:40:23.979
So I hope this is closer to methodology. So my
2094
01:40:24.060 --> 01:40:26.439
answer is slightly different, but I'm pretty sure we all
2095
01:40:26.479 --> 01:40:29.479
agree on everything. So the reason I think want is
2096
01:40:29.800 --> 01:40:34.979
hard to sit with is because it's actually the foundation
2097
01:40:35.020 --> 01:40:39.239
of all suffering. So if you think about what is peace,
2098
01:40:40.600 --> 01:40:45.340
what is contentment, contentment is the absence of want. So
2099
01:40:45.380 --> 01:40:48.899
I'm hungry. That is a disturbance of my peace.
2100
01:40:49.600 --> 01:40:50.300
I want food.
2101
01:40:50.739 --> 01:40:58.119
Want is the biological source of survival.
2102
01:41:00.000 --> 01:41:00.199
Right?
2103
01:41:00.279 --> 01:41:02.239
So if you look at any living organism.
2104
01:41:02.260 --> 01:41:03.920
Of evolution too. Of evolution.
2105
01:41:03.939 --> 01:41:04.119
Yeah.
2106
01:41:04.239 --> 01:41:04.560
Yeah.
2107
01:41:04.680 --> 01:41:04.899
Yeah.
2108
01:41:04.960 --> 01:41:06.220
So biology of evolution.
2109
01:41:06.239 --> 01:41:06.380
Yeah.
2110
01:41:06.680 --> 01:41:09.439
Right? So this is the problem with being human. And
2111
01:41:09.460 --> 01:41:12.149
this is the problem with being a living organism. It's
2112
01:41:12.159 --> 01:41:16.159
like even an amoeba that encounters some toxic pH. will
2113
01:41:16.239 --> 01:41:19.319
want to move away from it. So I think even
2114
01:41:19.359 --> 01:41:21.449
if you look at fear, what is fear? Fear is
2115
01:41:21.489 --> 01:41:24.710
a want for safety. What is anger? Anger is a
2116
01:41:24.770 --> 01:41:28.630
want for territory, a wanting of safety. What is lust?
2117
01:41:28.750 --> 01:41:29.989
It's wanting, you know.
2118
01:41:32.800 --> 01:41:33.140
Pretty good.
2119
01:41:33.180 --> 01:41:33.340
Right?
2120
01:41:33.359 --> 01:41:36.319
And even if you look at like, okay, can I
2121
01:41:36.399 --> 01:41:39.840
tunnel through? This is a want for the avoidance of
2122
01:41:39.899 --> 01:41:42.949
hard work. So this is something that I think the
2123
01:41:42.989 --> 01:41:45.289
Buddha taught, and this is something that's really fascinating. I
2124
01:41:45.489 --> 01:41:47.949
don't know if you guys noticed this, but no one
2125
01:41:49.189 --> 01:41:51.949
teaches the Buddha's teachings. Have you guys noticed this? Yeah.
2126
01:41:52.810 --> 01:41:55.420
Like there's a Bible, which is like what Jesus taught.
2127
01:41:56.020 --> 01:41:59.119
And then there's the Bhagavad Gita, which is what Krishna taught.
2128
01:41:59.399 --> 01:42:04.680
There's the Quran, which is what Muhammad taught. Where's Buddha's book?
2129
01:42:04.880 --> 01:42:07.319
It's the Pali Canon. So we have a bunch of
2130
01:42:07.390 --> 01:42:10.850
Buddhist teachers who are teaching some permutation.
2131
01:42:10.210 --> 01:42:10.609
Of the Buddha.
2132
01:42:10.770 --> 01:42:14.310
Do you guys know why that is? It's because if
2133
01:42:14.369 --> 01:42:17.210
the Buddha's teachings were taught today, he'd get tarred, feathered,
2134
01:42:17.229 --> 01:42:22.340
and crucified. His teachings are so contrary, and they are
2135
01:42:22.500 --> 01:42:27.359
the methodology. So Buddha says something really interesting, which is,
2136
01:42:29.149 --> 01:42:33.399
if you have pain— your reaction to the pain is
2137
01:42:33.470 --> 01:42:35.609
what suffering is. You can't control that there's going to
2138
01:42:35.649 --> 01:42:37.510
be pain in life, like bad shit is going to happen.
2139
01:42:37.810 --> 01:42:40.689
It's the way that you react to it, right? So Joe,
2140
01:42:40.750 --> 01:42:44.029
when faced with the car, holds his pitchfork. It's your
2141
01:42:44.090 --> 01:42:46.670
reaction to it. That's really all you control in life
2142
01:42:47.189 --> 01:42:48.989
is the way that you react to things, which then
2143
01:42:49.029 --> 01:42:51.800
gets a problem in agency. And I've worked with lots
2144
01:42:51.840 --> 01:42:55.779
of addicts who can't control their reactions. And then, but
2145
01:42:55.840 --> 01:42:58.279
he says something. So that is like something that in
2146
01:42:58.300 --> 01:43:01.289
the commoditization of therapy, we love to tell patients like, ah,
2147
01:43:02.130 --> 01:43:03.890
You have pain. She has dumped you.
2148
01:43:04.170 --> 01:43:05.130
You cannot control it.
2149
01:43:05.810 --> 01:43:09.800
But don't feel bad, bro. Let's talk about your feelings.
2150
01:43:09.880 --> 01:43:10.319
It's okay.
2151
01:43:11.439 --> 01:43:13.840
What we don't tell people is the Buddha says there's
2152
01:43:13.880 --> 01:43:17.340
an even more insidious thing, which is that pleasure, which
2153
01:43:17.399 --> 01:43:19.479
is the opposite of pain, is not something that you
2154
01:43:19.520 --> 01:43:22.300
can control in life. When you wake up, when you
2155
01:43:22.340 --> 01:43:25.619
walk outside after Love Island, you have no control over
2156
01:43:25.680 --> 01:43:30.039
seeing the Milky Way in that evocation of positive feeling.
2157
01:43:30.439 --> 01:43:33.729
So pleasure you can't control in life. And when you
2158
01:43:34.529 --> 01:43:37.890
attach yourself to pleasure, which is often used as an
2159
01:43:37.989 --> 01:43:42.699
antidote to pain, it creates obsession. So pain leads to
2160
01:43:42.739 --> 01:43:46.060
suffering if you don't react to it correctly. Pleasure leads
2161
01:43:46.140 --> 01:43:49.039
to obsession if you don't react to it correctly. If
2162
01:43:49.079 --> 01:43:53.500
you hold on to pleasure, if you strive for wanting,
2163
01:43:53.939 --> 01:43:57.319
if you want to satisfy your wants, that's going to
2164
01:43:57.359 --> 01:44:00.220
be where you lose control of your life. And I
2165
01:44:00.260 --> 01:44:02.390
think you're spot on. And it's so interesting because I
2166
01:44:02.430 --> 01:44:05.909
had a, I had a meditation teacher who told me like,
2167
01:44:06.069 --> 01:44:09.770
here's how you conquer desire. And he said, so he said,
2168
01:44:09.800 --> 01:44:13.060
I used to be addicted to potato chips. And so
2169
01:44:13.100 --> 01:44:14.739
he said like, you know, what would happen is I'm like,
2170
01:44:14.840 --> 01:44:19.939
I'm yoga, yogi, Rishikesh, Haridwar, Himalayas, right? So I'm going
2171
01:44:19.979 --> 01:44:24.640
to do sadhana, proper spiritual practice, not this white people thing.
2172
01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:25.180
Okay.
2173
01:44:26.140 --> 01:44:29.420
So then he's like, I really like potato chips. And like,
2174
01:44:29.460 --> 01:44:32.310
this is something I must conquer to become enlightened. Just
2175
01:44:32.430 --> 01:44:33.050
one step away.
2176
01:44:33.069 --> 01:44:36.229
Just one fucking potato chip. Once I stop the potato
2177
01:44:36.270 --> 01:44:37.899
chip eating, then I'll be done.
2178
01:44:38.060 --> 01:44:38.640
Exactly.
2179
01:44:38.739 --> 01:44:41.180
Then I'll be done. Exactly. Exactly. I know you will. Right?
2180
01:44:41.600 --> 01:44:43.520
So his teacher tells, so then what would happen is
2181
01:44:43.539 --> 01:44:45.500
he'd like resist and he'd resist and resist. And then
2182
01:44:45.659 --> 01:44:47.510
one day, because this is in India, this is many
2183
01:44:47.550 --> 01:44:49.789
years ago, but in India, like you can't get potato
2184
01:44:49.810 --> 01:44:52.390
chips at a store. They fry them fresh on the street.
2185
01:44:53.300 --> 01:44:55.979
So you have like potato chip vendors, which is like delicious.
2186
01:44:56.020 --> 01:44:56.979
You're walking past.
2187
01:44:57.140 --> 01:45:00.729
You're walking past like fresh made potato chips. They're going
2188
01:45:00.739 --> 01:45:02.810
to be stale in an hour. But man, when they
2189
01:45:02.850 --> 01:45:05.010
come out and they sprinkle that masala on top, it's
2190
01:45:05.069 --> 01:45:08.189
like it's straight fire. So one day the guy goes
2191
01:45:08.229 --> 01:45:10.789
into town and then some guy's like frying some potato
2192
01:45:10.829 --> 01:45:13.640
chips and then he cracks and then he hates it.
2193
01:45:14.630 --> 01:45:16.729
And so his teacher tells him. So then he goes
2194
01:45:16.789 --> 01:45:18.489
and he confesses and he's like, I have a problem.
2195
01:45:18.510 --> 01:45:21.050
He's like, what's your problem? It's like potato chips. He's like, okay,
2196
01:45:21.069 --> 01:45:21.829
this is what you need to do.
2197
01:45:21.970 --> 01:45:24.250
I need to beat myself up over something. So I
2198
01:45:24.289 --> 01:45:25.369
was thinking potato chips?
2199
01:45:25.609 --> 01:45:26.550
Yeah. Good enough.
2200
01:45:26.850 --> 01:45:27.329
Good enough.
2201
01:45:28.869 --> 01:45:32.590
And so his teacher tells him, stop resisting the potato chips.
2202
01:45:33.590 --> 01:45:36.289
And he says, next time you go to a store,
2203
01:45:36.329 --> 01:45:39.590
get a bag. If they get stale, go get another bag, whatever.
2204
01:45:40.010 --> 01:45:42.729
Stop resisting the potato chips. But all you should do
2205
01:45:42.810 --> 01:45:45.689
is anytime you want a potato chip, just be aware
2206
01:45:45.789 --> 01:45:48.470
of it. And you can gratify it or not gratify it.
2207
01:45:48.479 --> 01:45:51.399
I don't really care about that. Just notice what happens
2208
01:45:51.479 --> 01:45:55.680
within you when you want the potato chip. Notice what happens.
2209
01:45:55.739 --> 01:45:58.199
What is the nature of satisfaction that you receive from
2210
01:45:58.220 --> 01:46:02.840
a potato chip? And so this is the most fundamental exercise,
2211
01:46:02.859 --> 01:46:04.859
which I think is like what's really scary and what's
2212
01:46:04.880 --> 01:46:09.520
really contrary is the methodology is not. I mean, sometimes
2213
01:46:09.560 --> 01:46:12.819
it's action. Sometimes you got to get to the top
2214
01:46:12.859 --> 01:46:16.449
of the mountain. But sometimes the methodology is awareness. And
2215
01:46:16.489 --> 01:46:19.090
what frightens me, what frustrates me, what makes me feel
2216
01:46:19.229 --> 01:46:23.510
obsolete is that I think awareness like does away with
2217
01:46:23.529 --> 01:46:24.630
my whole fucking profession.
2218
01:46:25.329 --> 01:46:25.750
That's true.
2219
01:46:26.770 --> 01:46:28.170
All of you guys would be out of a job
2220
01:46:28.210 --> 01:46:29.409
if everyone was sufficiently aware.
2221
01:46:30.850 --> 01:46:33.430
Yes. And I wouldn't even, I wouldn't say like awareness.
2222
01:46:34.250 --> 01:46:36.510
If you posit it that way, there's some level of
2223
01:46:36.550 --> 01:46:41.050
awareness that you could have. If everybody trusted their awareness,
2224
01:46:41.720 --> 01:46:44.920
we'd be out of a profession. I don't think it's
2225
01:46:44.960 --> 01:46:47.859
like some level of awareness. It's just trusting their awareness.
2226
01:46:49.109 --> 01:46:53.109
It's so interesting how levels and experience and getting there
2227
01:46:53.250 --> 01:46:55.130
squeezes into the conversation, right?
2228
01:46:55.229 --> 01:46:59.449
Baked in this when I get to point or what's sufficient.
2229
01:46:59.470 --> 01:46:59.850
Yeah.
2230
01:46:59.869 --> 01:47:00.989
What's the saturation dose?
2231
01:47:01.010 --> 01:47:01.439
Yeah.
2232
01:47:01.449 --> 01:47:03.939
What's the efficacious dose of awareness in order for me
2233
01:47:04.340 --> 01:47:05.460
to have achieved this thing?
2234
01:47:05.479 --> 01:47:06.979
Yeah.
2235
01:47:07.140 --> 01:47:11.119
And it's so scary like how powerful awareness is.
2236
01:47:11.279 --> 01:47:11.720
Oh my God.
2237
01:47:12.420 --> 01:47:12.699
Okay.
2238
01:47:12.720 --> 01:47:17.039
So just to... Back to actual things you can do
2239
01:47:17.340 --> 01:47:19.180
and geeking.
2240
01:47:18.939 --> 01:47:21.479
Out for a second. I love the awareness one. I
2241
01:47:21.699 --> 01:47:25.430
have found that that works with pretty good efficacy. The
2242
01:47:25.609 --> 01:47:29.329
other one I love is, I love this one particularly
2243
01:47:29.350 --> 01:47:33.579
for porn addiction. Use porn anytime you want. Be aware
2244
01:47:33.600 --> 01:47:36.500
of the porn. But your job is to make sure
2245
01:47:36.560 --> 01:47:40.619
that the porn that you use is always more enjoyable
2246
01:47:40.659 --> 01:47:43.890
than the last time you used porn. You have to
2247
01:47:44.130 --> 01:47:48.039
figure out a way to make porn super enjoyable. Like,
2248
01:47:48.359 --> 01:47:50.720
like whatever you have to do, like candles, whatever you
2249
01:47:50.739 --> 01:47:53.699
got to do to like make porn more and more enjoyable.
2250
01:47:53.880 --> 01:47:56.229
I didn't mean like quick pleasure. I mean, like you're
2251
01:47:56.390 --> 01:48:00.149
really savoring, feeling the pleasure. You can do the same
2252
01:48:00.170 --> 01:48:03.899
thing with potato chips. If someone actually does that, it
2253
01:48:03.979 --> 01:48:06.520
disrupts bad habits unbelievably quickly.
2254
01:48:06.659 --> 01:48:10.069
On the surface, what that sounds like is you speed
2255
01:48:10.109 --> 01:48:13.750
running the hedonic treadmill and that, oh, well, this is
2256
01:48:13.770 --> 01:48:18.069
going to make the habit even more alluring, even more addictive,
2257
01:48:18.270 --> 01:48:21.340
even more self-reinforcing. Why is that not the case? Why
2258
01:48:21.359 --> 01:48:22.180
does it do something else?
2259
01:48:22.739 --> 01:48:23.039
Yeah.
2260
01:48:23.119 --> 01:48:27.100
So most of the time, the person who's doing it
2261
01:48:27.340 --> 01:48:31.619
is trying to escape an emotional experience. So I'm going
2262
01:48:31.640 --> 01:48:34.619
to use porn so I don't have to think about something,
2263
01:48:34.659 --> 01:48:37.010
not have to be in pain, not have to, so
2264
01:48:37.050 --> 01:48:39.670
I can cure my anxiety in that moment, in that second.
2265
01:48:40.500 --> 01:48:43.699
This is bringing such a deep amount of presence to it.
2266
01:48:44.060 --> 01:48:46.920
To actually enjoy it, you actually have to have presence.
2267
01:48:47.399 --> 01:48:49.720
And then you start to find out is that the
2268
01:48:50.020 --> 01:48:53.350
enjoyment is far better than what porn was giving you.
2269
01:48:55.789 --> 01:48:57.250
There's a neuroscience version. Please.
2270
01:48:57.770 --> 01:49:02.310
So when he says enjoy porn, notice what he also says.
2271
01:49:02.750 --> 01:49:03.770
Don't tug one out, bro.
2272
01:49:04.069 --> 01:49:04.250
Yeah.
2273
01:49:04.520 --> 01:49:07.800
Right? So this is what I think is really interesting.
2274
01:49:07.819 --> 01:49:12.399
A lot of people don't realize... pleasure and contentment are
2275
01:49:12.529 --> 01:49:13.420
inversely related.
2276
01:49:14.720 --> 01:49:14.960
Okay.
2277
01:49:15.000 --> 01:49:17.260
So the more pleasure you have in your life, the
2278
01:49:17.539 --> 01:49:19.720
less content you'll be. And this is down to the
2279
01:49:19.760 --> 01:49:23.859
neuroscience level. So dopamine and serotonin are like, this is rough,
2280
01:49:24.510 --> 01:49:26.550
but if you guys want to get complicated, we can.
2281
01:49:27.630 --> 01:49:30.789
Dopamine and serotonin are like inversely related. So if you
2282
01:49:30.810 --> 01:49:33.010
look at someone who has a highly dopaminergic life, like
2283
01:49:33.050 --> 01:49:35.670
the person I wanted to be, right? So a lot
2284
01:49:35.710 --> 01:49:37.729
of sex is A lot of affairs.
2285
01:49:37.750 --> 01:49:39.630
I'm pointing at you, not me. I'm just saying.
2286
01:49:39.670 --> 01:49:43.510
A lot of, or as much anal as you can handle.
2287
01:49:46.489 --> 01:49:51.779
Just have anal sex, bro. Is that it? Just say
2288
01:49:51.819 --> 01:49:55.060
yes to anal. That's going to be... I have practical
2289
01:49:55.100 --> 01:49:55.819
teachings too.
2290
01:49:55.979 --> 01:50:01.189
I have practical teachings too.
2291
01:50:02.689 --> 01:50:08.189
So literally, if you live a dopaminergic lifestyle, your serotonin
2292
01:50:08.210 --> 01:50:11.649
levels will drop. And so you'll become discontent and then
2293
01:50:11.670 --> 01:50:15.020
you chase dopamine. So dopamine is a substitute for serotonin.
2294
01:50:15.409 --> 01:50:17.560
And then what we find is that as people become
2295
01:50:17.680 --> 01:50:22.359
more content, their draw for dopamine decreases.
2296
01:50:22.800 --> 01:50:25.199
On average, would you say that more people have a
2297
01:50:25.680 --> 01:50:29.060
dopamine problem than a serotonin problem? They're using that, they're
2298
01:50:29.079 --> 01:50:31.239
chasing after that. Whereas if they were more in, I
2299
01:50:31.279 --> 01:50:34.060
always think about dopamine Chris, serotonin Chris, and cortisol Chris.
2300
01:50:34.460 --> 01:50:38.399
Like dopamine Chris is achieving things and making new 24-hour
2301
01:50:38.439 --> 01:50:42.359
play records on the channel. Serotonin Chris is relaxing in
2302
01:50:42.399 --> 01:50:46.180
a hammock. And cortisol Chris is arguing about something over email.
2303
01:50:46.970 --> 01:50:49.279
What's the word you're using? Chris? Chris himself.
2304
01:50:49.569 --> 01:50:49.789
Chris.
2305
01:50:50.050 --> 01:50:51.449
Oh, okay. I was like, oh.
2306
01:50:51.510 --> 01:50:54.770
I was going to say oxytocin Chris. Oxytocin Chris, yeah.
2307
01:50:55.090 --> 01:50:56.210
Scared that it's going to go away.
2308
01:50:56.229 --> 01:50:56.949
That I'm having anal sex.
2309
01:50:58.890 --> 01:50:59.550
That's all three.
2310
01:50:59.569 --> 01:51:01.890
No, no.
2311
01:51:02.090 --> 01:51:05.630
Okay. I'm sorry for opening that door. I apologize.
2312
01:51:05.649 --> 01:51:07.590
More people in serotonin problem, more people in dopamine problem.
2313
01:51:07.649 --> 01:51:10.550
So I'd say that you can't have one problem without
2314
01:51:10.590 --> 01:51:13.260
the other. right? So the whole point is that they're related.
2315
01:51:13.899 --> 01:51:16.939
So if you have a dopaminergic, that's a problem. If
2316
01:51:16.960 --> 01:51:20.300
you live a dopaminergic lifestyle, your serotonin by definition is
2317
01:51:20.340 --> 01:51:22.500
going to be low. And if you look at these
2318
01:51:22.539 --> 01:51:25.420
yogis in the Himalayas, they're, I mean, no one's doing
2319
01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:33.229
not even intracellular, intercellular measurements of dopamine and serotonin between neurons.
2320
01:51:33.270 --> 01:51:35.590
Like no one's like doing brain biopsies to measure that stuff.
2321
01:51:35.609 --> 01:51:38.899
So this is basically functional neuroscience. But if you look
2322
01:51:38.920 --> 01:51:42.680
at like a yogi, a yogi is content. And so
2323
01:51:42.720 --> 01:51:46.220
they can still engage in pleasure. But that contentment is
2324
01:51:46.239 --> 01:51:49.279
also enters the endocannabinoids circuitry. But if you think about
2325
01:51:49.619 --> 01:51:53.579
your peace, right, if I am fundamentally content, and I
2326
01:51:53.619 --> 01:51:54.880
think this is what I'd love to get to the
2327
01:51:54.920 --> 01:51:58.279
methodology of that bifurcation that you were talking about, because
2328
01:51:58.300 --> 01:52:00.659
I think this is what Connor's talking about, is like,
2329
01:52:01.079 --> 01:52:04.579
if you are confident in yourself, if you're relationally connected,
2330
01:52:05.420 --> 01:52:11.739
the fuel that dopamine The problems that dopamine solves actually disappear.
2331
01:52:12.439 --> 01:52:14.119
And I think that's what he's talking about as well,
2332
01:52:14.140 --> 01:52:16.470
which is like, if you don't tug one out, which
2333
01:52:16.510 --> 01:52:18.729
by the way is the hard part if you're addicted, right?
2334
01:52:18.850 --> 01:52:20.689
Especially if you're watching porn with candles on.
2335
01:52:21.449 --> 01:52:22.710
Right.
2336
01:52:23.829 --> 01:52:26.199
There comes a time where I just get outgunned at
2337
01:52:26.220 --> 01:52:28.800
these conversations.
2338
01:52:28.859 --> 01:52:30.340
It's like, I don't even know. You know?
2339
01:52:31.590 --> 01:52:36.729
So, so, and so I, I think one day I'll
2340
01:52:36.770 --> 01:52:37.390
be strong enough.
2341
01:52:37.489 --> 01:52:38.649
One day, one day.
2342
01:52:39.210 --> 01:52:41.520
So, so we'll, we get, you know, we get to
2343
01:52:41.529 --> 01:52:43.640
this point where like, what I, what I really like
2344
01:52:43.659 --> 01:52:46.659
about that exercise, it's a shift to serotonin. It's a
2345
01:52:46.720 --> 01:52:50.039
shift to, this is exactly the, the, the potato chip exercise.
2346
01:52:50.380 --> 01:52:52.920
When you start to settle in awareness, when you become
2347
01:52:53.079 --> 01:52:57.350
aware of something, the bite of it like literally decreases.
2348
01:52:57.430 --> 01:53:00.680
And there's some fascinating neuroscience about this where like, I
2349
01:53:00.699 --> 01:53:03.039
don't know if this kind of makes sense, but you
2350
01:53:03.060 --> 01:53:05.979
know if I... You know the difference between people who
2351
01:53:06.020 --> 01:53:07.810
dance and people who don't know how to dance?
2352
01:53:08.949 --> 01:53:09.409
Confidence?
2353
01:53:09.609 --> 01:53:10.590
One set is traumatized.
2354
01:53:13.609 --> 01:53:17.029
So I think one group tries to do it and
2355
01:53:17.149 --> 01:53:19.829
one group doesn't try to do it. Does that make sense?
2356
01:53:20.010 --> 01:53:20.989
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
2357
01:53:21.090 --> 01:53:21.310
Right?
2358
01:53:21.750 --> 01:53:24.689
So something really interesting happens. So if I were to
2359
01:53:24.760 --> 01:53:28.039
give you guys something to eat and I tell you
2360
01:53:28.220 --> 01:53:33.579
consciously control... every movement, you would not be able to chew.
2361
01:53:34.439 --> 01:53:38.260
If I tell you consciously, okay, contract the calf, now lift,
2362
01:53:38.819 --> 01:53:43.340
now extend the foot, now put it down. So anytime
2363
01:53:43.380 --> 01:53:46.489
you become aware of something, something really interesting happens. It's
2364
01:53:46.529 --> 01:53:49.989
the anterior cingulate cortex. Once that turns on and you
2365
01:53:50.029 --> 01:53:56.470
become aware of something, the automaticity of the brain turns off. Right.
2366
01:53:56.510 --> 01:53:59.310
So I think this this serotonergic circuit is really I mean,
2367
01:53:59.649 --> 01:54:02.689
it's it's fascinating. But like the more aware you become,
2368
01:54:03.029 --> 01:54:06.329
things just lose their power, like the power that emotions
2369
01:54:06.390 --> 01:54:10.050
have over you. If you really lean into the emotion
2370
01:54:10.170 --> 01:54:13.789
and you feel that emotion, that reckoning of pain. Right.
2371
01:54:13.810 --> 01:54:16.310
Like when when you actually face that reckoning, when you
2372
01:54:16.380 --> 01:54:19.979
face the music, the strength that it has to control
2373
01:54:20.020 --> 01:54:21.159
you actually goes away.
2374
01:54:22.239 --> 01:54:24.560
That's cool. You create a pattern interrupt.
2375
01:54:24.600 --> 01:54:24.720
Right.
2376
01:54:24.739 --> 01:54:27.779
Like if you think about the porn example. somebody's feeling something,
2377
01:54:27.920 --> 01:54:30.869
they're anxious, they're angry, they're bored, they're lonely, they don't
2378
01:54:30.890 --> 01:54:31.109
want to.
2379
01:54:31.069 --> 01:54:31.949
Feel that way.
2380
01:54:32.909 --> 01:54:36.550
Their brain has created a, because our brains are largely
2381
01:54:36.630 --> 01:54:41.649
pattern recognition machines, and they're looking for patterns to largely
2382
01:54:41.670 --> 01:54:44.149
keep us safe. And so for a lot of guys,
2383
01:54:44.180 --> 01:54:46.779
they're watching porn, they're re-watching porn because they feel a
2384
01:54:46.800 --> 01:54:48.840
certain way that they don't want to feel. And their
2385
01:54:48.880 --> 01:54:50.720
brain has learned, oh, and I feel this when this
2386
01:54:50.779 --> 01:54:53.260
emotion pops up in my body, I go jerk off.
2387
01:54:54.039 --> 01:54:56.689
And that cycle plays out and they have a very
2388
01:54:56.710 --> 01:54:59.029
specific cycle. There's a cycle of how they do it
2389
01:54:59.050 --> 01:55:01.569
and when they do it and how they're feeling before.
2390
01:55:01.609 --> 01:55:04.729
There's a whole cycle that plays out and then they
2391
01:55:04.770 --> 01:55:08.670
always feel a specific way after, which is usually shame, regret.
2392
01:55:08.729 --> 01:55:10.909
It's like, what's the post-nut regret, right? It's like, what
2393
01:55:10.930 --> 01:55:13.550
the fuck was I just watching? And so what Joe's
2394
01:55:13.569 --> 01:55:18.510
talking about is creating a different type of confrontation or
2395
01:55:18.529 --> 01:55:21.489
a type of confrontation that creates a different pattern that
2396
01:55:21.640 --> 01:55:26.649
starts to slow things down and accentuate from a place
2397
01:55:26.699 --> 01:55:28.930
of like okay what am i actually feeling what i've
2398
01:55:29.029 --> 01:55:31.689
given to guys is set a timer go sit down
2399
01:55:31.750 --> 01:55:34.289
go breathe and feel into what you're feeling and i
2400
01:55:34.310 --> 01:55:36.869
called it the fire meditation and it's like okay you're
2401
01:55:36.949 --> 01:55:40.350
feeling something in that moment that you're running from yeah
2402
01:55:40.369 --> 01:55:42.369
and you don't want to feel it you're feeling anger
2403
01:55:42.430 --> 01:55:45.939
you're feeling loneliness you're feeling whatever it is and you
2404
01:55:46.350 --> 01:55:49.640
are avoiding it and so let's move towards it right
2405
01:55:49.699 --> 01:55:53.289
jung talked about Carl Jung talked about when you are
2406
01:55:53.350 --> 01:55:55.729
facing a monster in a dream, the worst thing you
2407
01:55:55.750 --> 01:55:58.029
can do is run from it. But this is what
2408
01:55:58.050 --> 01:56:01.020
we do when we have habits or behaviors or choices
2409
01:56:01.060 --> 01:56:02.779
that we largely don't want to deal with or emotions
2410
01:56:02.819 --> 01:56:03.699
that we don't want to deal with.
2411
01:56:04.159 --> 01:56:04.899
We run from them.
2412
01:56:05.460 --> 01:56:09.779
And so what I'll often do with men is let's
2413
01:56:09.840 --> 01:56:12.000
turn towards it. So he says when there's a monster
2414
01:56:12.159 --> 01:56:13.979
in a dream, the first thing that you need to
2415
01:56:14.020 --> 01:56:15.319
do is you need to turn towards it.
2416
01:56:15.510 --> 01:56:16.180
You need to turn.
2417
01:56:16.020 --> 01:56:17.930
Towards the thing that you're afraid of or you don't
2418
01:56:17.970 --> 01:56:20.529
want to feel or you don't want to experience because
2419
01:56:21.420 --> 01:56:24.060
Not always, but sometimes it'll start to dissipate. You can
2420
01:56:24.100 --> 01:56:27.119
start to build a relationship with it. And instead of, oh,
2421
01:56:27.159 --> 01:56:29.850
I feel this way. I don't want to feel this way. It's, oh,
2422
01:56:29.890 --> 01:56:32.069
I feel this way. And I'm starting to build tolerance
2423
01:56:32.130 --> 01:56:35.449
for it. I'm actually still okay, even though I'm feeling
2424
01:56:35.489 --> 01:56:40.869
this way. And that oftentimes is a byproduct of a
2425
01:56:40.930 --> 01:56:44.489
family system, a nervous system within a family system where
2426
01:56:44.560 --> 01:56:47.880
somebody just didn't learn how to deal with hard emotions, right?
2427
01:56:47.899 --> 01:56:50.810
They didn't learn how to deal with, anger or anxiousness
2428
01:56:50.850 --> 01:56:55.289
or whatever it is. And so they've adopted all of
2429
01:56:55.350 --> 01:56:59.430
these methods to deal with internal states that they don't like.
2430
01:56:59.649 --> 01:57:02.850
Like a lot of dysfunction that people are experiencing is
2431
01:57:03.069 --> 01:57:06.210
I'm experiencing an internal state that I don't like, and
2432
01:57:06.250 --> 01:57:09.850
I have all of these ways of avoiding what's happening
2433
01:57:09.890 --> 01:57:12.899
inside of me. And so I think part of what
2434
01:57:12.909 --> 01:57:15.989
we're talking about is how do we support people in
2435
01:57:16.100 --> 01:57:20.640
turning towards the internal state that they're ultimately trying to avoid.
2436
01:57:21.159 --> 01:57:22.600
And one of the things that I say to guys
2437
01:57:22.640 --> 01:57:24.680
all the time is like, there's no change without some
2438
01:57:24.760 --> 01:57:28.819
form of confrontation. There's no change without some form of confrontation.
2439
01:57:28.840 --> 01:57:29.579
Superhuman.
2440
01:57:29.920 --> 01:57:32.819
And it's like, but that's, and I think from a
2441
01:57:32.880 --> 01:57:36.859
masculine perspective, that is something that we're really missing. Like
2442
01:57:36.920 --> 01:57:40.539
a lot of young men are, they have been neutered
2443
01:57:41.220 --> 01:57:44.260
when it comes to confrontation. They've been told that confrontation
2444
01:57:44.340 --> 01:57:47.819
is toxic. They've been told that confrontation is, is bad.
2445
01:57:47.880 --> 01:57:51.689
They're wrong for it. And so they're really these fragile,
2446
01:57:51.729 --> 01:57:54.020
not just men. And I was the same way, right?
2447
01:57:54.060 --> 01:57:56.310
Like I, you know, I was okay with getting into
2448
01:57:56.390 --> 01:57:59.409
bar fights. That was totally okay. That type of confrontation
2449
01:57:59.529 --> 01:58:02.470
was fine, but I wasn't okay with the confrontation of like, wow,
2450
01:58:02.510 --> 01:58:04.609
I feel really fucking sad or I feel really weak,
2451
01:58:04.670 --> 01:58:07.310
or I'm really scared about this thing. That type of
2452
01:58:07.369 --> 01:58:10.409
confrontation was never taught to me. And I think that
2453
01:58:10.449 --> 01:58:12.520
that's the case for so many people where they're not
2454
01:58:12.600 --> 01:58:17.260
taught how to confront the hard negative perceived and negative
2455
01:58:17.300 --> 01:58:19.000
experiences that are going on inside of them.
2456
01:58:19.460 --> 01:58:23.529
Surely it becomes very pernicious when the coping mechanism is
2457
01:58:23.569 --> 01:58:26.850
something that's lauded by other people. So this is where
2458
01:58:26.899 --> 01:58:29.060
it gets very squirrely and might be interesting. Maybe we
2459
01:58:29.079 --> 01:58:31.279
could go to the methodology of the rock bottom thing.
2460
01:58:31.760 --> 01:58:33.579
There's one more thing about that.
2461
01:58:33.600 --> 01:58:39.119
The other thing that's in my approach, which is it's
2462
01:58:39.159 --> 01:58:42.000
the thing about the negative self-talk, right? So as long
2463
01:58:42.060 --> 01:58:47.659
as the thing that you're doing is bad, shame makes
2464
01:58:47.699 --> 01:58:51.050
it so that we get stuck in a pattern. Like
2465
01:58:51.189 --> 01:58:53.050
if I look, if I say to you, Hey, what
2466
01:58:53.090 --> 01:58:55.050
are the 10 things that you've been telling yourself not
2467
01:58:55.090 --> 01:58:57.430
to do for a decade that you're still doing? I
2468
01:58:57.470 --> 01:58:59.109
can tell you, you have shame around them. And it
2469
01:58:59.149 --> 01:59:01.270
sounds like I should do this. Why don't I do this?
2470
01:59:01.550 --> 01:59:02.350
I have to do this.
2471
01:59:03.529 --> 01:59:06.409
And so, so the things that you sell yourself, you
2472
01:59:06.489 --> 01:59:09.050
should be doing are the things that you're guaranteed not
2473
01:59:09.069 --> 01:59:12.270
to do because shame is the lock that holds the
2474
01:59:12.289 --> 01:59:14.960
chains of bad habits in place. And so To some degree,
2475
01:59:15.079 --> 01:59:17.060
what I'm doing is I'm taking the shame out of
2476
01:59:17.100 --> 01:59:19.600
the masturbation or the porn addiction.
2477
01:59:19.699 --> 01:59:20.300
Totally.
2478
01:59:20.659 --> 01:59:23.890
And so it's an interesting thing. What I notice is
2479
01:59:23.930 --> 01:59:27.350
the confrontation, critical. Like everything you said, I'm like, wow,
2480
01:59:27.630 --> 01:59:30.510
totally right. We have a whole course on how to
2481
01:59:30.550 --> 01:59:36.649
feel difficult emotions. But the other thing that helps a
2482
01:59:36.689 --> 01:59:39.869
lot with that is how do we really question the shame?
2483
01:59:40.630 --> 01:59:44.350
Like really, okay, so... You whack off to porn. You're
2484
01:59:44.369 --> 01:59:47.340
bad for that. I get it. Uh, so that makes
2485
01:59:47.399 --> 01:59:50.260
like what percentage of American men bad? Are they all bad?
2486
01:59:50.920 --> 01:59:52.800
Like, what do you say to yourself? Can you say
2487
01:59:52.819 --> 01:59:54.220
it to them? Why don't you say it to them
2488
01:59:54.260 --> 01:59:56.760
right now? Let's, let's see how much the shame holds
2489
01:59:56.880 --> 01:59:58.600
up outside of your internal dialogue.
2490
01:59:58.640 --> 02:00:01.630
We do an exercise at our men's retreats where we
2491
02:00:01.670 --> 02:00:06.590
have guys write out their specific internal dialogue, like say
2492
02:00:06.609 --> 02:00:10.550
verbatim how you speak to yourself and they write it out.
2493
02:00:10.649 --> 02:00:13.069
And then we pair them up with another guy and
2494
02:00:13.090 --> 02:00:14.670
then we say, okay, talk to that man.
2495
02:00:15.170 --> 02:00:19.229
We have that exact exercise. We have that exact exercise.
2496
02:00:19.270 --> 02:00:20.149
That's funny.
2497
02:00:20.470 --> 02:00:23.390
And so it's, it's, it's fascinating, but I think, can
2498
02:00:23.409 --> 02:00:24.270
we talk about shame for a moment?
2499
02:00:24.289 --> 02:00:26.329
Can I just say, I think shame, shame, shame's a
2500
02:00:26.369 --> 02:00:26.810
great place.
2501
02:00:27.050 --> 02:00:29.180
Yeah. Cause if you can crack shame, you can crack
2502
02:00:29.220 --> 02:00:32.100
everything else a lot easier. Yeah. Practically speaking. Hmm.
2503
02:00:32.470 --> 02:00:35.710
I think what's, I'll talk about it above and then
2504
02:00:35.729 --> 02:00:37.750
kind of drill down into it. I think what's interesting
2505
02:00:37.810 --> 02:00:39.949
is that for many men, they are trying to deploy
2506
02:00:40.020 --> 02:00:44.220
shame because shame is in many ways a compliance-based emotion.
2507
02:00:44.840 --> 02:00:47.899
It is a, I'm going to try and get myself
2508
02:00:47.960 --> 02:00:50.619
to comply. And usually that's because they've grown up in
2509
02:00:50.640 --> 02:00:54.539
an environment where compliance was something that a parent was
2510
02:00:54.579 --> 02:00:57.409
seeking with them. And they were deploying shame to try
2511
02:00:57.449 --> 02:01:01.029
and get that compliance. The problem is that you are
2512
02:01:01.329 --> 02:01:06.289
always in a kind of one down situation. You're always
2513
02:01:06.409 --> 02:01:09.510
in a smaller, inferior position when shame is being deployed.
2514
02:01:09.529 --> 02:01:11.180
And so I think for a lot of men, part
2515
02:01:11.189 --> 02:01:16.420
of the challenge is that they, and I'll just come
2516
02:01:16.460 --> 02:01:19.800
back out to culture. It's become very socially acceptable to
2517
02:01:19.859 --> 02:01:23.289
try and use shame to gain compliance online. And that
2518
02:01:23.329 --> 02:01:27.140
has become something so rampant that I think it should
2519
02:01:27.220 --> 02:01:29.039
not be necessarily tolerant.
2520
02:01:29.079 --> 02:01:31.159
Like that should be confronted, I think, in our, in
2521
02:01:31.199 --> 02:01:34.720
our culture. And it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Wow.
2522
02:01:35.020 --> 02:01:37.659
That person is now compliant now that you've shamed them online.
2523
02:01:37.739 --> 02:01:37.899
Right.
2524
02:01:37.979 --> 02:01:40.460
As like maybe never been said. Exactly.
2525
02:01:40.739 --> 02:01:45.890
But you know, there is a kind of, uh, when
2526
02:01:46.020 --> 02:01:50.890
somebody has been shamed long enough, that becomes their identity structure.
2527
02:01:51.659 --> 02:01:54.340
there's something defective within me. There's something wrong with me.
2528
02:01:54.800 --> 02:01:57.159
And then they try and deploy shame.
2529
02:01:57.020 --> 02:01:58.470
To get out of it.
2530
02:01:58.600 --> 02:02:00.880
You know, it's like, maybe I'll just use this fuel
2531
02:02:01.439 --> 02:02:04.279
enough to get out of this experience and it never
2532
02:02:04.340 --> 02:02:07.479
works like the Chinese finger trap. And so I think
2533
02:02:07.500 --> 02:02:10.380
that's important for people to understand. It's like, you can't
2534
02:02:11.380 --> 02:02:16.220
deploy shame or leverage shame to really get to the
2535
02:02:16.279 --> 02:02:18.340
place that you're wanting to go. You might be able
2536
02:02:18.420 --> 02:02:21.510
to shame your way into some achievements and, I'm sure
2537
02:02:21.550 --> 02:02:24.529
we've all seen that in clients where they leverage shame,
2538
02:02:25.090 --> 02:02:27.869
you know, to win some award or get some achievement.
2539
02:02:28.470 --> 02:02:30.409
But at the end of the day, shame is not
2540
02:02:30.789 --> 02:02:35.359
an internal state that you're going to be able to
2541
02:02:35.399 --> 02:02:37.880
leverage for success, for fulfillment at least.
2542
02:02:38.699 --> 02:02:38.939
Yeah.
2543
02:02:39.520 --> 02:02:42.319
The way I think about it too is shame basically
2544
02:02:42.359 --> 02:02:46.680
sends a message you're broken, right? Like you were bad
2545
02:02:46.720 --> 02:02:48.319
for doing porn means you're broken.
2546
02:02:48.779 --> 02:02:50.729
Yeah, I'm faulty. I'm faulty.
2547
02:02:50.770 --> 02:02:51.289
I'm broken.
2548
02:02:51.430 --> 02:02:52.630
It's the John Bradshaw.
2549
02:02:53.289 --> 02:02:58.289
How am I going to make myself succeed? I keep
2550
02:02:58.350 --> 02:03:02.909
on telling myself I'm broken. Instead of telling myself I'm whole,
2551
02:03:03.149 --> 02:03:07.699
that I'm capable. Can you imagine an NFL football player? Okay,
2552
02:03:07.720 --> 02:03:09.600
I'm going to go out there and I'm going to
2553
02:03:09.760 --> 02:03:12.420
get a touchdown because I'm broken, because I'm fucked up,
2554
02:03:12.760 --> 02:03:14.939
and because I never catch the goddamn ball.
2555
02:03:15.720 --> 02:03:18.220
Like never, but somehow or another, you think that's going
2556
02:03:18.239 --> 02:03:19.000
to work for yourself.
2557
02:03:19.479 --> 02:03:22.619
I just hard disagree. So this is, this is interesting.
2558
02:03:22.739 --> 02:03:25.380
I think you can use, you can use it.
2559
02:03:25.600 --> 02:03:28.079
Right. So, so I think, are you going to find
2560
02:03:28.119 --> 02:03:29.819
a football player? Yeah. I think half of them are
2561
02:03:29.840 --> 02:03:33.020
going to think that in different words. Right. So I
2562
02:03:33.060 --> 02:03:35.670
think when we look at the heights of performance, so
2563
02:03:36.130 --> 02:03:37.930
experience that I've had with shame, like in terms of
2564
02:03:37.949 --> 02:03:40.789
the work that I do, which, and I'm wondering actually
2565
02:03:40.850 --> 02:03:43.460
how much of this is like different populations, right? So
2566
02:03:43.500 --> 02:03:45.600
when you were like, can you say this to somebody
2567
02:03:45.680 --> 02:03:47.939
else about the porn that you like? Like, I don't
2568
02:03:47.960 --> 02:03:49.340
know if you guys know what 4chan is.
2569
02:03:49.380 --> 02:03:50.810
You guys know what 4chan is? No.
2570
02:03:50.819 --> 02:03:53.689
Right. So like people on 4chan, yeah, they can do
2571
02:03:53.729 --> 02:03:54.710
that shit all day long.
2572
02:03:54.729 --> 02:03:56.289
4chan is like Reddit's Reddit.
2573
02:03:57.149 --> 02:03:57.510
Yeah.
2574
02:03:57.590 --> 02:04:01.649
It's like if Reddit had all of the guidelines.
2575
02:04:02.189 --> 02:04:05.569
Everyone who's banned from Reddit goes on 4chan.
2576
02:04:05.729 --> 02:04:06.890
It's basically just neckbeards.
2577
02:04:08.079 --> 02:04:16.439
So it's completely... Just neckbeards? Yeah, neckbeards. I agree 100% with...
2578
02:04:16.420 --> 02:04:18.550
I think we're all on the same page about what
2579
02:04:18.590 --> 02:04:22.529
this path is. I think that the challenging thing is
2580
02:04:23.189 --> 02:04:25.090
the things that you tell yourself, can you tell it
2581
02:04:25.130 --> 02:04:27.789
to other people? There's a whole crop of people that
2582
02:04:27.829 --> 02:04:30.380
are like, yeah. Going back to the training that they
2583
02:04:30.399 --> 02:04:35.020
got through, they've been told it. The cycle of abuse continues.
2584
02:04:35.590 --> 02:04:38.949
Right? They can absolutely, the glove that you guys are
2585
02:04:38.989 --> 02:04:41.020
throwing down, there's a lot of people that can pick
2586
02:04:41.060 --> 02:04:41.329
that up.
2587
02:04:42.739 --> 02:04:47.199
I'm not saying whether they can or can't. And I'm
2588
02:04:47.239 --> 02:04:48.819
not sure if it changes your point, but what I've
2589
02:04:48.880 --> 02:04:52.600
noticed is when people are confronted with how they talk
2590
02:04:52.649 --> 02:04:56.210
to themselves in the mirror of talking to somebody else
2591
02:04:56.270 --> 02:04:59.920
that way, it has a large effect on A majority
2592
02:04:59.939 --> 02:05:03.109
of the population. I'm sure there's like people who are
2593
02:05:03.810 --> 02:05:04.989
masochistic or sadists.
2594
02:05:05.069 --> 02:05:07.289
I think that if you look at something like, so
2595
02:05:07.350 --> 02:05:09.789
a great example of this is imposter syndrome. So imposter
2596
02:05:09.810 --> 02:05:14.409
syndrome is literally like a cognitive pattern, which is when
2597
02:05:14.680 --> 02:05:21.260
I win, it's luck. When somebody else wins, it's hard work, right?
2598
02:05:21.319 --> 02:05:24.840
And when confronted, that's a great example of confronting the
2599
02:05:24.880 --> 02:05:27.239
dichotomy between the way that you treat yourself and the
2600
02:05:27.279 --> 02:05:29.979
way that you treat other people. So I totally get
2601
02:05:30.159 --> 02:05:32.220
what y'all are saying. And I think when it comes
2602
02:05:32.260 --> 02:05:34.819
to shame, I think the hard thing about shame is
2603
02:05:34.899 --> 02:05:40.850
that it is actually like the most motivating emotion.
2604
02:05:42.010 --> 02:05:42.829
Totally.
2605
02:05:42.850 --> 02:05:45.550
So it's the lock for your habits. And the challenge
2606
02:05:45.569 --> 02:05:51.250
that I usually face with people is getting them... See,
2607
02:05:51.430 --> 02:05:54.050
a lot of people function under the assumption that if
2608
02:05:54.090 --> 02:05:58.300
they don't beat themselves up, That's their primary motivational system.
2609
02:05:58.319 --> 02:05:58.850
Correct, yeah.
2610
02:05:58.930 --> 02:06:01.210
So when that falls apart.
2611
02:06:02.010 --> 02:06:04.220
Who am I? Who am I?
2612
02:06:04.350 --> 02:06:04.739
Who am I?
2613
02:06:05.510 --> 02:06:06.850
How am I going to achieve?
2614
02:06:07.050 --> 02:06:07.210
Yeah.
2615
02:06:08.010 --> 02:06:08.229
Right?
2616
02:06:08.350 --> 02:06:08.770
All that stuff.
2617
02:06:08.789 --> 02:06:11.670
And so everything falls apart. So people get really attached
2618
02:06:11.689 --> 02:06:13.890
to it. I mean, the number of interviews that I've done...
2619
02:06:13.670 --> 02:06:17.529
But it's not effective. Define effective.
2620
02:06:17.560 --> 02:06:20.819
I think it's effective in achieving results, but it's not
2621
02:06:20.859 --> 02:06:25.399
effective in being able to reap the rewards of the achievements.
2622
02:06:25.460 --> 02:06:26.270
Like, Yes.
2623
02:06:26.329 --> 02:06:28.569
There's so many people that I've worked with where they've
2624
02:06:28.729 --> 02:06:33.050
leveraged shame and that internal compliance system to achieve results.
2625
02:06:33.270 --> 02:06:35.369
And then they get to the top and they're like, well,
2626
02:06:35.390 --> 02:06:37.569
I don't actually feel any reward.
2627
02:06:37.649 --> 02:06:40.829
The distinction I would make there is that the shame
2628
02:06:40.949 --> 02:06:48.329
can allow you to create, but it is incredibly ineffective
2629
02:06:48.390 --> 02:06:53.199
at getting you to stop. Shaming yourself to stop porn
2630
02:06:53.220 --> 02:06:57.500
is very ineffective. Shaming yourself to stop cigarettes, very ineffective.
2631
02:06:57.560 --> 02:07:00.039
Shaming yourself. So it's, what I'm saying is the behaviors
2632
02:07:00.060 --> 02:07:03.000
you want to stop is where shame is super ineffective.
2633
02:07:03.460 --> 02:07:06.260
No matter, I think that would be.
2634
02:07:06.300 --> 02:07:08.439
Is there not an argument to be made that starting
2635
02:07:08.470 --> 02:07:10.510
a new behavior can be the stopping of an old one?
2636
02:07:10.989 --> 02:07:15.909
Like shaming myself out of, I want to stop eating
2637
02:07:15.949 --> 02:07:19.130
potato chips or I want to start being fit.
2638
02:07:20.029 --> 02:07:20.210
Right?
2639
02:07:20.250 --> 02:07:22.380
Like you can stop eating potato chips because you start
2640
02:07:22.399 --> 02:07:24.239
going to the gym and that builds this sort of
2641
02:07:24.279 --> 02:07:27.420
spiral of better habits, but the shame can be a kickstarter.
2642
02:07:27.500 --> 02:07:31.220
I think the shame, I would also say long-term, my
2643
02:07:31.260 --> 02:07:35.590
experience is long-term shame on a long-term like workout thing,
2644
02:07:36.270 --> 02:07:39.949
it can get you started, but I don't see people
2645
02:07:40.250 --> 02:07:44.550
use shame on a regular basis to... To be able
2646
02:07:44.609 --> 02:07:47.149
to like have prolonged, it's a dirty fuel, you burn out.
2647
02:07:47.350 --> 02:07:48.180
Yeah. There's a short term.
2648
02:07:48.199 --> 02:07:50.119
I wonder about, I think I'm on your side with
2649
02:07:50.159 --> 02:07:53.140
this about shame being quite effective at achieving an outcome.
2650
02:07:53.199 --> 02:07:55.050
It's just the outcome that you achieve is not the
2651
02:07:55.100 --> 02:07:56.710
one that solves the problem that you were trying to
2652
02:07:56.770 --> 02:07:58.229
escape from the shame in the first place.
2653
02:07:58.510 --> 02:07:58.720
Yes.
2654
02:07:58.760 --> 02:08:01.739
So I think we're all on the same page. I
2655
02:08:01.760 --> 02:08:03.920
think this is where we get to the methodology because
2656
02:08:03.960 --> 02:08:07.060
if we challenge this perspective, right? So I think the
2657
02:08:07.079 --> 02:08:10.819
thing you're saying, yeah, shame is not effective at stopping behaviors,
2658
02:08:11.359 --> 02:08:14.479
which generally speaking, I think the behaviors that you cited
2659
02:08:15.109 --> 02:08:20.229
are neuroscientifically specific to being ineffective with shame. And the
2660
02:08:20.270 --> 02:08:25.239
reason is because if you talk about addictive behaviors, the
2661
02:08:25.260 --> 02:08:28.199
thing that makes pornography the most addictive from a neuroscience
2662
02:08:28.239 --> 02:08:32.760
perspective is the emotional regulation component. So we've just evolved
2663
02:08:32.979 --> 02:08:36.989
that when sex enters the picture, for men especially, that
2664
02:08:37.390 --> 02:08:40.829
everything else leaves. Like you can be an 80-year-old dude
2665
02:08:40.850 --> 02:08:43.390
with metastatic cancer and you can still.
2666
02:08:44.750 --> 02:08:46.850
Engage in sexual intercourse, right?
2667
02:08:47.289 --> 02:08:51.569
So I think when we're talking about addiction specifically, shame fuels,
2668
02:08:51.850 --> 02:08:55.279
activates the structure that we're using pornography to calm down.
2669
02:08:55.619 --> 02:08:59.739
So 100% agree. The challenge is that I think many people,
2670
02:09:00.300 --> 02:09:04.500
their problem is not stopping behaviors. Their problem is an
2671
02:09:04.619 --> 02:09:09.449
inefficiency of starting. So if I'm a 4chan-er, 24 years old,
2672
02:09:10.149 --> 02:09:13.000
sitting at home, jerking off all day, Don't know how
2673
02:09:13.020 --> 02:09:13.779
to leave the house.
2674
02:09:13.899 --> 02:09:16.039
Don't know how to get a job. I should be studying.
2675
02:09:16.380 --> 02:09:17.779
I want to do this. I want to do this.
2676
02:09:17.859 --> 02:09:19.420
I want to do this. And I think we've all
2677
02:09:19.539 --> 02:09:23.100
seen this, right? I don't really interact with that population much.
2678
02:09:23.840 --> 02:09:27.399
But I mean, I think we've seen shame being motivated
2679
02:09:28.079 --> 02:09:31.039
as a powerful motivator to get started, right? To make
2680
02:09:31.079 --> 02:09:33.779
a million, to make 10 million, to make 100 million.
2681
02:09:34.020 --> 02:09:36.319
And as long as the shame is there and people
2682
02:09:36.359 --> 02:09:38.579
are terrified, my experience of working with shame is that
2683
02:09:38.979 --> 02:09:42.449
people don't want to let it go. because they're terrified
2684
02:09:42.989 --> 02:09:45.670
of what is on the other side, because shame is
2685
02:09:45.909 --> 02:09:47.250
such a powerful motivator.
2686
02:09:47.550 --> 02:09:49.850
Can I just maybe give a framework that I think
2687
02:09:49.890 --> 02:09:53.170
might be helpful here? From my experience, shame is a
2688
02:09:53.210 --> 02:09:58.750
very personality-based, it roots itself into the personality and not
2689
02:09:58.829 --> 02:10:02.069
necessarily into the core self. So like Jung talked about
2690
02:10:02.149 --> 02:10:05.739
core self and then shadow and anima and animus and
2691
02:10:05.779 --> 02:10:07.720
all the rest of it. But I think one of
2692
02:10:07.760 --> 02:10:10.960
the things that I've seen is that shame becomes the
2693
02:10:11.000 --> 02:10:14.680
kind of blinders that get put on the person's ego
2694
02:10:14.819 --> 02:10:19.520
or identity where they stop seeing their core self. And
2695
02:10:19.560 --> 02:10:23.770
we could use different words for that, but I think
2696
02:10:23.810 --> 02:10:26.250
it becomes the blinders for somebody to be able to see,
2697
02:10:26.270 --> 02:10:30.350
I have worth, I have self-worth, I have inherent value,
2698
02:10:30.590 --> 02:10:34.789
I matter inherently. And that's what the giant threat is, right?
2699
02:10:34.810 --> 02:10:37.850
It's like, if I let go of this shame, if
2700
02:10:37.909 --> 02:10:40.789
I start to confront this shame, what's going to happen
2701
02:10:40.869 --> 02:10:43.770
to my ego? Because my ego structure, my sense of
2702
02:10:43.810 --> 02:10:48.100
personality and identity is so fraught with shame. That's who
2703
02:10:48.159 --> 02:10:51.239
I think I am. And so I think part of
2704
02:10:51.279 --> 02:10:54.800
the first step of differentiation is to be able to, like,
2705
02:10:54.819 --> 02:10:57.640
I have this saying with my son, which is, I
2706
02:10:58.149 --> 02:11:00.229
love you for who you are, no matter what you do.
2707
02:11:00.899 --> 02:11:04.539
And so I'm separating personhood from behavior. Very simple principle,
2708
02:11:04.600 --> 02:11:08.369
separating personhood from behavior. Who you are, your personhood, your
2709
02:11:08.390 --> 02:11:12.229
sense of self is inherently good no matter, not no matter,
2710
02:11:12.310 --> 02:11:14.029
but no matter what you do, no matter what you accomplish,
2711
02:11:14.050 --> 02:11:16.649
no matter what you achieve. And I think that the
2712
02:11:16.779 --> 02:11:19.659
average person who is fraught with shame, whether it's through
2713
02:11:19.699 --> 02:11:24.619
trauma or abuse or you know, neglect and abandonment, part
2714
02:11:24.659 --> 02:11:28.359
of what they're experiencing is that they've never had that differentiation.
2715
02:11:28.420 --> 02:11:31.800
Somewhere along the way, that differentiation didn't happen. And so
2716
02:11:31.840 --> 02:11:35.100
their sense of self is what is broken. They can't
2717
02:11:35.159 --> 02:11:36.270
actually touch that or see it.
2718
02:11:36.520 --> 02:11:37.270
Yeah.
2719
02:11:37.279 --> 02:11:39.250
So what I think is so interesting about that, and
2720
02:11:39.270 --> 02:11:44.050
I think we're getting there, is the number of people
2721
02:11:44.109 --> 02:11:48.170
I've worked with who are allergic to the thought that
2722
02:11:48.229 --> 02:11:49.229
I have inherent self-worth.
2723
02:11:49.489 --> 02:11:51.369
Totally. Yeah. They hate that. Yeah.
2724
02:11:52.229 --> 02:11:54.479
What's the classic avatar of that kind of person?
2725
02:11:54.489 --> 02:11:56.060
So real quick before we.
2726
02:11:57.000 --> 02:11:58.880
The other thing I'm noticing is all of our stories
2727
02:11:58.960 --> 02:12:02.140
about hitting rock bottom, they're all a confrontation with shame.
2728
02:12:02.520 --> 02:12:03.000
Absolutely.
2729
02:12:03.220 --> 02:12:04.520
I mean, mine was, yeah. Yeah.
2730
02:12:04.640 --> 02:12:07.710
It's like in some way it's kind of like, oh,
2731
02:12:08.270 --> 02:12:11.890
and letting go. The confrontation, this is actually what's happening
2732
02:12:12.090 --> 02:12:14.010
and letting it go. We're all kind of part of
2733
02:12:14.109 --> 02:12:14.890
all of our stories.
2734
02:12:15.090 --> 02:12:18.300
I really did fundamentally believe I was like my core...
2735
02:12:18.750 --> 02:12:21.850
identity was I'm broken. Something's wrong with me. I have
2736
02:12:21.869 --> 02:12:24.270
to root out what's wrong with me and figure that out.
2737
02:12:24.449 --> 02:12:24.590
Yeah.
2738
02:12:24.850 --> 02:12:25.069
Yeah.
2739
02:12:25.090 --> 02:12:27.529
So I think that we're getting to ego. I want
2740
02:12:27.550 --> 02:12:30.390
to just touch on one piece of methodology about shame.
2741
02:12:30.430 --> 02:12:32.970
So when I encounter people like this, because it's kind
2742
02:12:32.989 --> 02:12:35.750
of interesting because they don't, it's a different challenge if
2743
02:12:35.770 --> 02:12:38.510
they don't want to let go of the shame. And
2744
02:12:38.689 --> 02:12:40.949
usually the way to get around that that I found
2745
02:12:40.989 --> 02:12:44.380
is effective is actually going back to wants. Because shame
2746
02:12:44.449 --> 02:12:47.659
is the gap between what you are and what you
2747
02:12:47.720 --> 02:12:52.680
want to be. Yeah. So shame cannot exist without want.
2748
02:12:53.479 --> 02:12:56.260
And then we get to what's beautiful is what you
2749
02:12:56.319 --> 02:12:59.319
started with. What do you want? What do you really want?
2750
02:12:59.380 --> 02:13:01.680
What do you really want? And then we get to
2751
02:13:02.239 --> 02:13:07.460
so many people let go of their wants because they
2752
02:13:07.500 --> 02:13:09.819
can't achieve them. They believe that they can't achieve them.
2753
02:13:10.760 --> 02:13:11.979
Or they don't want to feel them.
2754
02:13:13.170 --> 02:13:14.850
Or they don't want to actually feel it.
2755
02:13:15.069 --> 02:13:15.800
Feel what?
2756
02:13:15.949 --> 02:13:16.310
The want.
2757
02:13:16.399 --> 02:13:18.979
Yeah, 100%, right? That's why they let go of it.
2758
02:13:19.039 --> 02:13:22.539
That's why they drown it out because the thought of
2759
02:13:22.699 --> 02:13:27.229
wanting something and knowing that you can't get it is
2760
02:13:27.319 --> 02:13:33.170
like so crushing. And so what I tend to lean
2761
02:13:33.229 --> 02:13:36.489
into with these people is let's get to want.
2762
02:13:36.550 --> 02:13:38.310
Like what is it that you really want? Mm-hmm.
2763
02:13:38.840 --> 02:13:40.420
And then this is also where we get to kind
2764
02:13:40.439 --> 02:13:43.619
of like failing forward, right? And I hate that term actually,
2765
02:13:43.640 --> 02:13:47.319
because it implies that fail will result in forward. The
2766
02:13:47.390 --> 02:13:51.649
real solution, right? Oh, like you'll get success. Just fail first.
2767
02:13:51.689 --> 02:13:53.390
Success is there. Guaranteed.
2768
02:13:53.409 --> 02:13:53.829
Fail.
2769
02:13:54.149 --> 02:13:58.029
Then success comes, right? So we're actually playing into it
2770
02:13:58.090 --> 02:14:00.930
with all of this stuff. It's baked so much into
2771
02:14:01.170 --> 02:14:04.020
the current frame of our society where it's like, no,
2772
02:14:04.100 --> 02:14:05.500
actually what you need to do, and I think this
2773
02:14:05.539 --> 02:14:07.829
is the confrontation that we're talking about is, You need
2774
02:14:07.850 --> 02:14:11.770
to fail and that's it, bro. If you want freedom,
2775
02:14:12.590 --> 02:14:14.430
you need to be able to fail, like face that
2776
02:14:14.449 --> 02:14:16.609
failure and be like, hey, fucked it up.
2777
02:14:18.109 --> 02:14:18.489
That's it.
2778
02:14:19.510 --> 02:14:22.029
Guys, I love all of you. You fucking rule. Having
2779
02:14:22.170 --> 02:14:23.430
three of you in the room has been like a
2780
02:14:23.470 --> 02:14:25.409
little dream of mine for a while. And it's just
2781
02:14:25.470 --> 02:14:27.789
wonderful to have you. Send people, we'll go around the
2782
02:14:27.810 --> 02:14:30.229
room one final time and direct people to the stuff
2783
02:14:30.260 --> 02:14:31.529
that you do or whatever you think is best for
2784
02:14:31.560 --> 02:14:31.840
them to.
2785
02:14:32.729 --> 02:14:36.979
It's just man talks everywhere. Man talks on YouTube, man
2786
02:14:37.000 --> 02:14:39.800
talks on Instagram. My book is called Men's Work.
2787
02:14:40.840 --> 02:14:41.130
That's it.
2788
02:14:42.760 --> 02:14:46.649
Artofaccomplishment.com or at the YouTube channel probably is the best
2789
02:14:46.689 --> 02:14:48.130
place to start or the podcast.
2790
02:14:48.569 --> 02:14:48.829
Oh, yeah.
2791
02:14:49.550 --> 02:14:51.430
Yeah. So I'd say, I mean, Healthy Gamer GG is
2792
02:14:51.930 --> 02:14:56.310
the YouTube channel, but I think if people want entertaining
2793
02:14:56.390 --> 02:14:59.569
stuff that will teach them a little bit, that's good.
2794
02:14:59.609 --> 02:15:02.609
But if people want deeper stuff, I am really loving
2795
02:15:02.970 --> 02:15:05.710
the membership thing that we built. And it was supposed
2796
02:15:05.729 --> 02:15:07.409
to end in six months, and it's been going for
2797
02:15:07.729 --> 02:15:09.710
two years. So I think it's like depending on what
2798
02:15:09.729 --> 02:15:11.210
you guys want, but Healthy Gamer GG.
2799
02:15:11.470 --> 02:15:14.189
I should say we have a membership as well called
2800
02:15:14.310 --> 02:15:16.810
The Alliance, and we've got like 1,500 guys in there.
2801
02:15:17.029 --> 02:15:17.569
That's awesome.
2802
02:15:17.649 --> 02:15:19.970
Yeah, it's a good place to be. And you don't
2803
02:15:19.989 --> 02:15:20.930
do anything in person, no?
2804
02:15:22.029 --> 02:15:23.430
No, I'm avoidant of relations.
2805
02:15:23.930 --> 02:15:24.329
That's true.
2806
02:15:25.470 --> 02:15:26.979
I'm going to drag you out.
2807
02:15:27.140 --> 02:15:28.960
I have one for you. You'll be in the woods
2808
02:15:28.979 --> 02:15:31.359
wearing a plaid shirt cutting shit with you at some
2809
02:15:31.380 --> 02:15:33.960
point soon. Crying in a flower pot.
2810
02:15:33.979 --> 02:15:35.500
That's not at all what we do.
2811
02:15:35.640 --> 02:15:40.739
I think I am the most inspired to do a
2812
02:15:40.819 --> 02:15:48.229
retreat or some kind of impersonal thing. I think these guys,
2813
02:15:48.250 --> 02:15:51.710
I'm super familiar with Joe's work and as familiar you
2814
02:15:51.729 --> 02:15:55.470
can be without going through it. And, you know, learning
2815
02:15:55.510 --> 02:15:59.189
about Connor. But, like, I mean, I think I guess
2816
02:15:59.250 --> 02:16:02.869
I have to now. This is the gravitational pull.
2817
02:16:02.909 --> 02:16:06.800
Next year we'll be back here and be like, it's relationships.
2818
02:16:06.850 --> 02:16:07.899
And we're like, no, it isn't.
2819
02:16:07.939 --> 02:16:12.239
We're like, it's solitude. Just awareness on your own.
2820
02:16:12.300 --> 02:16:13.720
Yeah, boys, I love you all. You're the best.
2821
02:16:13.899 --> 02:16:15.060
Can I just ask one last question?
2822
02:16:15.079 --> 02:16:15.840
This is going to bottom me later.
2823
02:16:19.310 --> 02:16:21.829
So like, here's my take on relationships is at some
2824
02:16:21.869 --> 02:16:25.640
point the relationship enters you, right? It has an impact
2825
02:16:25.819 --> 02:16:31.779
in you. And so I don't know exactly what I'm
2826
02:16:31.800 --> 02:16:34.920
trying to ask, but like my experience has been that
2827
02:16:35.420 --> 02:16:38.389
it is the part within you that you actually can
2828
02:16:38.430 --> 02:16:40.430
modulate some that is like the most important.
2829
02:16:43.590 --> 02:16:44.209
I know we're done.
2830
02:16:44.610 --> 02:16:46.850
You said something that I'm going to kind of answer
2831
02:16:46.870 --> 02:16:50.649
it sideways, but you said something about not needing a relationship.
2832
02:16:51.610 --> 02:16:56.540
And I think it's both. There's something in me that
2833
02:16:56.620 --> 02:17:00.180
is like, if I need the relationship, if the relationship
2834
02:17:00.340 --> 02:17:03.200
is like something that I need them to say yes
2835
02:17:03.260 --> 02:17:06.040
or no or happy or sad or approve or disapprove,
2836
02:17:07.219 --> 02:17:14.049
then that's no good. But if I can't like, if
2837
02:17:14.110 --> 02:17:17.430
I can't like be in awe the way he is
2838
02:17:17.469 --> 02:17:20.479
of a night sky at that moment of a relationship
2839
02:17:21.219 --> 02:17:27.120
and how much it's affecting me, then also, so to me, it's, it's,
2840
02:17:27.280 --> 02:17:30.090
it's finding that balance between those two things is where the,
2841
02:17:31.600 --> 02:17:33.719
like the, the best pointer I have.
2842
02:17:33.760 --> 02:17:36.360
So would you say there's a difference between the Milky
2843
02:17:36.399 --> 02:17:37.620
Way and a relationship?
2844
02:17:41.680 --> 02:17:44.159
No, Not if I'm relating to them in the same way.
2845
02:17:44.479 --> 02:17:46.299
So I think we do agree. Okay.
2846
02:17:46.479 --> 02:17:46.639
Right.
2847
02:17:46.659 --> 02:17:48.100
So that's kind of what I mean is like and
2848
02:17:48.120 --> 02:17:52.739
when it crosses over, there is a, there is like
2849
02:17:52.860 --> 02:17:56.139
a uniformity at the ground level, which I don't think is,
2850
02:17:56.180 --> 02:18:00.489
I guess, special to humans. Um, which we, I mean,
2851
02:18:00.530 --> 02:18:02.409
we have pets and stuff, but you know what?
2852
02:18:02.610 --> 02:18:02.790
Yeah.
2853
02:18:02.829 --> 02:18:04.549
I mean, it's, I am that, right.
2854
02:18:04.569 --> 02:18:08.590
It's like you're, you're having the awareness of you are
2855
02:18:08.610 --> 02:18:12.069
me in some capacity and, And so to have a
2856
02:18:12.110 --> 02:18:15.549
relationship with you in a deep way is to have
2857
02:18:15.590 --> 02:18:20.579
a deeper relationship with myself. And there's, you know, we
2858
02:18:20.659 --> 02:18:26.020
have the differentiation, but also, you know, it's collapsing the duality.
2859
02:18:26.059 --> 02:18:31.420
It's realizing that that's somewhat of an illusion, right? It's
2860
02:18:31.520 --> 02:18:34.120
like by having a relationship with you, I have a
2861
02:18:34.139 --> 02:18:35.399
relationship with self.
2862
02:18:35.379 --> 02:18:36.020
In that moment.
2863
02:18:36.829 --> 02:18:40.889
And that that's the ultimate, maybe not ultimate, because that's like,
2864
02:18:41.159 --> 02:18:44.659
puts an ascension orientation towards it but it's like i'm
2865
02:18:44.819 --> 02:18:49.489
in relationship with self by being with you by seeing
2866
02:18:49.510 --> 02:18:52.510
you by understanding you by having you be a mirror
2867
02:18:53.229 --> 02:18:56.450
of my projections and all those different pieces and so
2868
02:18:57.709 --> 02:19:00.170
you know it's it's hard because at some point the
2869
02:19:00.250 --> 02:19:03.399
further out we get the more into spiritual principles we
2870
02:19:03.420 --> 02:19:05.659
get and the harder it is for people to follow
2871
02:19:06.500 --> 02:19:07.479
those those things.
2872
02:19:07.360 --> 02:19:09.920
You know what i want as a sequel and i'm
2873
02:19:09.959 --> 02:19:13.190
aware that everyone's got horrendous fucking schedule so trying to
2874
02:19:13.250 --> 02:19:16.790
play calendar tetris is not always easy.
2875
02:19:17.030 --> 02:19:19.670
Um we'll make time for you i i would love.
2876
02:19:19.409 --> 02:19:21.709
I have an idea and i'm open to you guys
2877
02:19:21.729 --> 02:19:24.229
suggesting something else i would love to do a beginner's
2878
02:19:24.290 --> 02:19:28.530
guide to spirituality as a next round table like for
2879
02:19:28.559 --> 02:19:31.040
the people who are like i have this sense that
2880
02:19:31.059 --> 02:19:35.280
there's something more uh and how the fuck do i
2881
02:19:35.340 --> 02:19:38.819
step into that could be because everyone here what's been
2882
02:19:38.860 --> 02:19:41.520
cool or interesting at least for me in the conversation
2883
02:19:41.579 --> 02:19:43.520
is there is a little bit of an elephant in
2884
02:19:43.559 --> 02:19:44.979
the room. And the elephant in the room is that
2885
02:19:45.219 --> 02:19:48.760
everybody sat at this table, even me, but maybe at
2886
02:19:48.819 --> 02:19:52.379
a lower degree than you guys, has this like, we've
2887
02:19:52.420 --> 02:19:55.200
almost skirted around it to some degree. Like, yeah, there's
2888
02:19:55.229 --> 02:19:57.629
like karma and stuff. And like, here's how it works. Like,
2889
02:19:57.829 --> 02:19:59.729
you know, but there's this other bit, but like, well,
2890
02:20:00.329 --> 02:20:02.770
that's a huge rabbit hole that we can't, vortex that
2891
02:20:02.790 --> 02:20:06.790
we can't go down. And then there's senses of God
2892
02:20:06.829 --> 02:20:09.090
or presence or, you know, the divine or awakening or
2893
02:20:09.149 --> 02:20:13.870
detachment from, da, da, da, da. And I'm interested in
2894
02:20:14.139 --> 02:20:17.799
what a conversation of stepping into that, like the beginner's
2895
02:20:17.819 --> 02:20:21.940
guide to spirituality would be. That would be like a
2896
02:20:21.979 --> 02:20:24.440
fucking cool potential future conversation.
2897
02:20:25.879 --> 02:20:28.319
Sex and spirituality. Yeah.
2898
02:20:28.620 --> 02:20:30.600
I was going to say like, are we bumping sex
2899
02:20:30.659 --> 02:20:30.959
for this?
2900
02:20:32.139 --> 02:20:34.059
Oh, you want to do four hours on sex? I'll
2901
02:20:34.079 --> 02:20:34.700
do four hours on sex.
2902
02:20:35.909 --> 02:20:37.649
I mean, I think it deserves at least that much love.
2903
02:20:37.670 --> 02:20:41.030
I think I'd be super scared. I thought this next one...
2904
02:20:40.969 --> 02:20:45.030
Do you notice my ability to stop? Joe, Joe, lean
2905
02:20:45.090 --> 02:20:45.770
into it, bro.
2906
02:20:45.790 --> 02:20:46.690
Lean into the sex.
2907
02:20:46.719 --> 02:20:47.450
Don't turn away.
2908
02:20:47.500 --> 02:20:49.430
I think you're supposed to technically back up into it. Boys,
2909
02:20:49.500 --> 02:20:53.299
I appreciate you all. All right, goodbye, my beauties. Yes,
2910
02:20:53.579 --> 02:20:55.340
that was fucking awesome. Amazing, dude.
2911
02:20:55.360 --> 02:20:56.139
Dude, unbelievable.
2912
02:20:56.159 --> 02:20:56.700
How much fun.