NEW: The Killer and Frank Lloyd Wright

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You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
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My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
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Kristin Dilly.
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My name is Kristin Dilly.
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I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
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as well as the social media manager and co administrator
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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
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in crime.
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Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly
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and I'm Bill Thomas.
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We're joined again by friend of the podcast, Casey Sherman,
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here to talk to us about his brand new book,
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The Killer, and Frank Lloyd Wright.
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And I'm Casey Sherman. I feel like a third co
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host now since I've been on the ship of times.
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Thanks for having me back, guys.
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This is your fifth appearance with us.
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It's great. One of my favorite conversations to have on
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any book tours, to sit down with you Kristin and
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you Bill and just go over some of the crazy
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stories that I've been working on.
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So you've joined us now to talk about Arose for Mary, Helltown,
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a murder in Hollywood, and Blood in the Water. And
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so now we're talking about a case that contains a
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very famous name, and that's architect Frank Lloyd Wright. And
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because we do have some younger listeners who might not
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be familiar with Frank Lloyd Wright, tell us a little
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bit about him and why we should be familiar with him.
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Yeah, it's a great question, and quite frantically, I don't
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consider myself a Frank Lloyd Wright expert, but I do
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know that most people have seen the Guggenheim Museum in
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New York City, a very oddly shaped, incredible museum, or
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they've seen photographs of Falling Water, which was another Frank
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Lloyd Right designed home in Pennsylvania. He is the most
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prominent American architect in history. And again I didn't know
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much about him because I can barely change the light
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bulb in my own home, so he wasn't somebody I
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gravitated toward. But I obviously knew how respected he was,
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not only here in the United States but around the world,
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and traveling in the Midwest, I had been in several
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Frank Lloyd Wright homes, and there are Frank Lloyd Right
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homes all over. People think that you need to be
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a millionaire to live and own the Frank Lloyd Right own,
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but you really don't. There are Frank Lloyd houses for
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sale for three hundred grand in Cleveland, for example. But
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he was incredibly pro prolific designing not only homes but
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some of the most significant buildings here in America.
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I'm a big craftsman fan, architectural fan, which is a
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particular style of home. A lot of things that we
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think of as craftsmen influenced are also Frank Lloyd Right
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influence because he promoted those architecturals styles.
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He absolutely created the architectural style it was called. He
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called it Prairie style. Before Frank Lloyd Wright came along,
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every building that was designed looked like it was literally
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plunked down in the middle of nature and didn't really
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use all the natural beauty around. Frank wanted his homes
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and his buildings to blend it with the beautiful landscape,
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whether it was the Midwest or upstate New York or California,
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or even overseas.
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There is a little bit of scandal involved in Frank
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Lloyd Wright's interpersonal relationships. And I think I'm understating the
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case when I say just a little bit of scandal,
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and that scandal is really intertwined with the crime at
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the heart of the book. So before we get into
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the axe murder at Talias and talk to us a
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little bit about Frank Lloyd Right's rocky marriage to Kitty
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Right and then his affair with Martha Borthwick.
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What's interesting, Kristin Again, I told you guys, I didn't
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know much about Frank Lloyd Wright, So how did I
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come up with a story to write the book? A
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lot of my material gets a adapted into feature films
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or television projects. So I was in Hollywood two years
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ago now meeting with an A list actors production company,
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and I was pitching them on the book Blood in
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the Water, which is now in development as a feature film.
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After the pitch meeting ended, I asked, what are you
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guys working on? He said, do you know Frank Lloyd Right?
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And I said yeah, And I just told you Googa
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Nai Museum, solling Water, and they said he was involved
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in a mass murder early in his architectural career. And
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we love the project, but we don't have a t. C.
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Sherman to dig under the roots and to find if
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there's a real story there. And I said, guys, I'm
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standing right in front of you. You must let me
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go back to my true crime writing lab, which is
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behind me here and digging into the story. So I
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went back and I started my research, and I was
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pitched a story about murder. But when I sound, guys,
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there's really a story about loves beautiful story at the
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center of to In Frank Loyd right. And when I
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went to my publisher and said I have my next book,
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and they said what is it, I said, it's Romeo
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and Juliet meets the Shining So we're going to get
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to a shining park of this story. Let's got a
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little bit about Romeo and Juliet. As you mentioned, Kristin
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Frankloyd Wright was a person of his time. I had
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to go all the way back into the eighteen hundreds
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to learn about his childhood and his upbringing in the
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Midwest in Wisconsin and eventually Chicago. And when he was
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a young man, he literally bumped into his future wife's
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kitty at a church dance in Chicago.
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Wow does this sound? Does this sound like classic Midwest story?
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It's watching It's a wonderful life, right, I can picture
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it in my head. Buffalo girls, let's come out tonight.
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And these two bump into each other. Frank falls in
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love two a degree. She falls head over heels for him.
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They do what every Midwestern couple did. In nineteen ten
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they or nineteen oh five, they got married and they
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had a slew of kids. And at that point Frank
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was becoming a prominent architect in Oak Park, Illinois. He
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was not a domesticated person at all. He didn't know
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how to love or really how to show affection to anybody.
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He wasn't the greatest father in the world, and that
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he self admitted that he was so wrapped up in
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sulcused in his art. And that's what Frank Lloyd writes
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domestic life looked like early on in his career. His
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wife Kitty handled old domestic duties, handle the kids. Frank
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was able to really focus on design. Frank was a
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terrible big businessman. He owed money all over Chicago, barely
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paid his bills. But he was a visionary. And if
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you guys study the great geniuses of history, you know
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that a part of their brain has to be left
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to explore other things. And I think that part of
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his brain that really focused on business or family he
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had to turn it off. So well, that's the Frank
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Lloyd Wright that Kitty knows, but Kitty still loves him.
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Kitty is a prominent figure in the community, as is
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Frank at the time, and Frank is designing homes for
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all of his very well to do neighbors in Oak Park, Illinois.
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Now Oak Park is a very leafy suburb of Chicago.
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It's a great neighborhood still to this day. On one block,
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it's where Ernest Hemingway was born and raised, and just
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four blocks away, Frank Lloyd Wright designs his first home
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and lives there with Kitty and the kids. He enters
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a business agreement with a man named Edwin Cheney, and
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Edwin Cheney says, I'd love you to design my house,
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and oh, by the way, meet my wife, Martha. Frank
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meets Martha and they immediately fall in loss Frank is
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attracted to her physically she's beautiful, but he's also intellectually
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attracted to her. Now, Mama Borthwick, Mama as she's called,
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is a brilliant woman in her own right. She's a
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feminist in Edwardian society. She's one of the first female
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graduates of the University of Michigan. She's actually the first
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female to ever address the graduates at graduation the commencement
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at the University of Michigan. And she's got all of
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these hopes and dreams. But when she gets married to
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Edwin Cheney, her identity is stolen from her. Now she
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is missus Edwin Cheney and the mother of their two kids.
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So she loses her identity in Frank, I think nurtures
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that out of her again and they fall madly in
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love with each other. Now, this is an affair that
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they don't keep behind closed doors in this buttoned up
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early Christian society. They actually live very openly together and
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it creates the first celebrity sex scandal in American history.
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So where are Kitty and their kids while he's off
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taking up with Mama Borthwick. How does this work?
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It doesn't work, Bill, so she's at home, almost oblivious
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to the rumors in the innuindow that are circling around
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Oak Park. Frank is again lives a very honest life.
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He tells Kitty, we're not in love. I've never been
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in love with you, and I want a divorce. Kitty says,
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no way, I'm not going to give you a divorce.
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We're going to try to figure out how to work
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this out. Eventually, they can't. Kitty does not want to
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give up her marriage to Frank, So Frank says, I'm
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just gonna live openly with the love of my life,
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Martha Borthwick. And they do for a period of time.
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And I mentioned now reporters from all over Chicago are
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hearing these rumors at church or at their the restaurants
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that they dined at. Now they're knocking on Kitty's door,
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and Kitty's got a great story to tell. Kitty tells
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them that she is a scorned woman and that she's
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keeping the light on for her the love of her life, Frank,
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and that Mama Borthwick is a vampire. Now none of
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this is true, but she knows how to manipulate and
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create her own narrative. She's manipulating the media, and certainly
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all the media turns its attention to Mama and Frank
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and they vilify them. Clergy is holding surmons just to
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talk about this scandal because Frank and Mama are putting
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the institution of marriage on Trott in the United States
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for the first time. And this is well before People, Magazine,
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before Star, before TMZ. So all the reporters are just
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diving into these stories and they're writing them for the
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Chicago Tribune, but the Chicago tributing stories get shared with
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newspapers all over America. So before anybody in the public
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knew Frank Lloyd write the Architect, they knew of Frank Lloyd,
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write the Philanderer. That's how we became famous.
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It seems so backwards that he became known for this scandal,
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and of course they did call them scandal sheets back then,
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So this is a newspaper driven story to a large extent.
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As I said, most people around the United States had
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never even heard of Frank Floyd right before, but they
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were reading about his affair with Mama Borthwick on almost
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a daily basis, and that's how he became famous. Infamous
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at the time because his career was rowing, nobody would
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hire him, so he and Mama had to literally go
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into exile, and they traveled to Europe for about a year,
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and they lived very openly as quote unquote husband and wife.
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I almost went to the European example just a moment ago,
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because I was thinking about how openly Frank Lloyd Wright
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and Mama Borthwick are living together, and I almost said, oh,
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how European as a joke, But they really did try
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that lifestyle on.
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They did, and the porters followed them throughout Europe. They
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lived in Germany, they lived in Italy, and Frank was
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working on a portfolio with regard to all of his
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archae sextual designs, while Martha was beginning to translate Swedish
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seminist prose into English. So here are two people that
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are creating together, that are living life very openly, but
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the media hounds from America won't league them alone, and
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it keeps the scandal alive throughout the course of the
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year that they're in exile.
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We've got the Romeo and Juliette part of the thing.
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Let's get to the shining part of the story. How
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long were Frank and Mama allowed to have this sort
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of wonderful, soulmate existence before the axe falls accents.
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Literally, they were traveling in Europe for about a year.
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Then they decided to come home. Everybody's in the media,
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the public, and even in their families thought, okay, this
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was a midlife crisis. Frank is going to return to
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Chicago and move back in with his family. Mama is
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going to go back to her family now. Her husband,
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unlike Kitty, was allowing Mama to divorce him, which was
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a pretty remarkable gift that he had given her At
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that time. He knew it was a loveless marriage, and
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he was willing to allow her to be free, if
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you will. But Frank and Mama don't go back to
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their families. Instead, Frank goes to Wisconsin and builds her
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a monument to their love that he calls Taliessen. It's
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a beautiful home where Frank can live very openly with
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Mama while she is working, while he's working. It's also
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a place where Frank can tutor the next generation of architects.
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He wants to create his own school there and brings
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five to seven architects to live with him and to
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design the next generation of buildings across the US. When
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Frank gets back to Chicago, because he's so talented, he
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begins to pick up work again. And one project he
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does pick up is called Midway Gardens, and it's a
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giant entertainment complex in Chicago. It's got a ballroom, it's
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got an orchestra, it's got a theater, it's got nightclubs.
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It's a massive project. And he can't be running tally
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Essen in Wisconsin all the time because he's in Chicago.
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He decides to hire a caretaker for the estate. And
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this man's name was Julian Carlton. Julian had a wife
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named Gertrude, and it was a great package deal because
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Julian could run the estate and she was the chef. Now,
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this couple, they were African American, but they weren't servants.
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Julian was not somebody that was going to be shining
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shoes or doing anything the domestic African Americans weren't doing
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at the time. He was a pretty smart guy, and
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Gertrude was very adept at the kitchen, and that was
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their job to really run the estate while Frank was away.
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But what no one knew was that Julian Carlton had
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some type of undiagnosed mental illness, and that got everybody
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in a big way.
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It absolutely does, and will leave the details for anybody
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who wants to read it in the book. What ultimately
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ends up happening in it tell us and is an
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axe murder. And those are incredibly grizzly, and they're also
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incredibly rare. The most famous ones that people have heard about,
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of course, are Lizzie Borden and maybe even the axemen
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of New Orleans. You don't typically hear Julian Carlton's name
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mentioned among famous axe murderers.
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I think that everybody around Frank Lloyd Wright has tried
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to suffocate this story and not allow it to come
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to light, which is in direct contradiction to how Frank
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Lloyd Wright lived his life. Now, I recently toured his
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home in Oak Park, Illinois during book tour, and I
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just wanted to see how the historians inside the home
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were mentioning this story or not mentioning the story. And
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when you walk into Frank Lloyd writes how over the
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mantle there is an inscription which says truth is life.
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And again, Frank lived very openly his entire life. So
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the fact that this story has never been brought to light,
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I think is a disservice to Frank's legacy, because this,
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again was Frank's love story. While I'm on tour in
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the Frank Lloyd write home, it's a group of tourists
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and I didn't announce myself ahead of time, and the
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poor historian is trying to engage the group, and he's
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asking these very woundamentary questions about Frank Lloyd, right, And
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when no one raised their hands, I felt bad for
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the guy. So I'm raising my hand and yes, I'm
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giving him all the answers he needed. And halfway through
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the tour he's like, well, you know a lot about
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Fred Floyd, right, Oh, what is it? I said, it's
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the killer of Frank Lloyd right O. Hell, yes, I
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said yep. And he goes, oh, we're not allowed to.
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Oh really, they don't discuss it.
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They do not discuss it. I don't know why. And
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part of the research that I do this is the
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farthest back I've gone to write a book, going back
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well over one hundred years. So there's nobody in contemporary
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America that I can interview that knows the story or
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that knew the people that were involved. So the research
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I did was I went back and I researched all
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of the press materials, all the stories that were written
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at the time, as many of the police reports that
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I could get my hands on, and then every Frank
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Lloyd Write biography that's ever been written. The biographers they
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mentioned Maema Borthwick and passing. They touch on this within
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maybe a few pages, and they dismiss her as Frank
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Lloyd Write's mistress, which is not the case at all.
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She was the love of Frank Lloyd Wright's life. And
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what happened to have Telliessen changed his entire architectural approach
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to design. We know that there was an axe murder
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at telli Essen, that Julian Carleton killed everybody inside and outside.
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And we're talking about Maema Borthwe we're talking about her
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two young children, We're talking about several architects that were
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on property that day. Not only does he kill them,
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but he burns the entire structure down. If anybody knows
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Frank Lloyd Wright's design style, prior to the taliess and tragedy,
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Frank Lloyd Wright would build rooms within rooms, because every
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room had a purpose in every room was a work
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of art in a Frank Lloyd Wright home. But that
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means that there wasn't a lot of egress, that there
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weren't a lot of easy ways to get out of
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a Frank Lloyd Wright designed home, and that certainly trapped
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a lot of the victims while this building was let
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on a fire and they couldn't get out, and there
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was only one window that some of the survivors were
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trying to get out to relieve themselves of the smoke
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and the fire inside. And as as they're leaving, Julian
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Carlton is outside with an axe cutting them all down.
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Gees. It's really something to read.
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And of course you did your usual wonderful job kind
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of walking people through it, but without a lot of
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gratuitous detail and things like that too.
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So I appreciate that I don't really get into the
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glutuitous nature of the topics that I have to write about.
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Everything has to have a heart, everything has to have
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a purpose. Fires stand that not only was a lovely
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woman struck down, but two children who are children, and
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the architects that lost their lives that day, and Frank
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doesn't know any of this is happening. He is in
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Chicago and he gets word that there is a fire
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at Taliasm. That's all he knows, so he rolls up
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his architectural plans. He gets on a train with his
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son and Edwin Cheney because Edwin Cheney has also learned
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that there's a fire at Talias And as they are
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traveling from Chicago to Wisconsin, the news is catching up
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to them at every railroad station where poorers are descending
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onto the platforms and they're telling Rank and Edwin, what's
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going on.
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You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back
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after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
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mindover Murder.
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So by the time frad Lloyd Wright does get to
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tellly us.
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And he knows that everybody's dead, how much damage was
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done to telling us and as a home as a
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result of the power that was.
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Destroyed, and that's why eventually he does rebuild. He Mama
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Borthwick was buried on property in an unmarked grave. Holly
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Frank knew where she was buried for you know, a
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number of years.
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The sixty four thousand dollars question here, of course, is
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why would Julian Carleton decide to savagely murder seven people
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at the home of his employer. Do we have any
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idea about motive whatsoever.
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There have been a lot of conspiracy theories that have
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been shared over the past century. I think a lot
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of it comes back to that undiagnosed mental illness, because
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his wife, Clerk Troop, did say that he was hearing
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voices and that he slept with a hatchet on his chest,
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and that he had abused HERRP at the time. But
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there were some movements that Carlton makes prior to the
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massacrele Dad can't be accounted. So he told his wife
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that he was going to the dentist in Madison, Wisconsin,
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but he ends up in Chicago, doesn't tell her why
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he's there. He gets a vial of poison and he
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uses that poison. Because ultimately Carleton is captured on property,
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because there was a man hunt that takes several hours,
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and I described every step in the book. Ultimately is
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captured and he swallows the poison as he is being
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taken away into a police car. And he lives for
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a very short period of time, and they want to
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keep him alive because they want to answer that million
383
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dollar question what was the motive? He ends up dying
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before his trial. But before he dies, he does if
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I don't live or if I die, you'll never.
386
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Know why I did it, So he won't satisfy law
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enforcement who have a ton of questions, obviously, and he
388
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seems to have had some sort of paranoid breakdown.
389
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Correct, So that leads everyone to speculate what was the
390
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root cause of this horrific crime. Now people thought, okay,
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was it the mall because Frank Lloyd Wright was using
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non union labor at Midway Gardens, therefore antagonizing the gangsters
393
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that were running the unions at the time. Was it
394
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a prominent member of Chicago society. Was it a member
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of the clergy because Mama and Frank were living very openly,
396
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and as I mentioned, putting the institution of marriage on
397
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trial in America? Who knows? I do think ultimately it
398
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:53.880
does go back to this undiagnosed mental break because again,
399
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.920
if you were a hitman, so to speaks to the mob,
400
00:22:57.400 --> 00:22:59.759
are you really going to murder two children in the
401
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.519
way that he can. But it doesn't make any sense.
402
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:05.519
And I've covered organized crime for years as a journalist.
403
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.799
That's not what they do. Would a member of clergy
404
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:13.279
be so gastardly to order this man to commit these murders,
405
00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:15.559
knowing that two children are also onto.
406
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:21.359
Arvardy It seems really unlikely. How helpful was Julian Carlton's
407
00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.960
wife in terms of telling authorities about his behavior in
408
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.720
the weeks and months leading up to the murders.
409
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She escaped and she was captured on a road heading
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out of town, and they interviewed her at length, and
411
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she gave them the information about the voices that were
412
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in his head and the fact that he went to
413
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bed with a hatchet, and then she disappeared. No one
414
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:50.799
knows what happened to Gertrude. She just vanished. She did
415
00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:52.640
say that she was going to stand by her man,
416
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but she didn't. She left and no one could ever
417
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:56.599
track her down again.
418
00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:01.000
The thing that I found so quainyant is Frank Lloyd
419
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:04.000
Wright and Edwin Cheney, who both shared the love of
420
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:06.200
the same woman, arrive at tally Us and at the
421
00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:09.920
same time, and they find that not only has she died,
422
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:13.119
the kids have died as well. And you had some
423
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:16.279
very interesting scenes there between the two of them where
424
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.920
they're sitting and talking about are you staying for the funeral?
425
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What are you going to do?
426
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On the one hand, I can imagine that being very tense,
427
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.039
but I imagine that kind of sadness of losing this woman
428
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.039
that both of them loved, that really felt heart wrenching.
429
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:35.759
And yeah included that thank you, because again, this was
430
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:39.799
a tragedy and Frank lost everything, We lost the love
431
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:43.279
of his life, and we blamed himself for the tragedy.
432
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At tally Esen, I thought, Okay, where do I take
433
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.759
the story from There? Is there a redemption story for
434
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.000
Frank Lloyd right in all of this, And I do
435
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:55.319
find it when the pages of the book. And that
436
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.839
doesn't take Frank Lloyd right off the hook, because even
437
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:02.839
though he is completely lost emotionally and physically, he just
438
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.640
continues to court scandal and gets involved with other women
439
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.240
in his life, and he emerges back on the front
440
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.400
pages of newspapers all around the country. And when he
441
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.240
meets the mysterious Madame Noel, which I hope the readers
442
00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:21.039
will learn about. She was a trip. She was great
443
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.400
to write about, and you could tell how she completely
444
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:28.839
hypnotized him and brought him into a lot of chaos,
445
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:31.200
but a lot of it was self inflicted as well.
446
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.960
Do you think this is a pattern here of real
447
00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:42.240
estate designers, builders and a complete disregard for the mores
448
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.079
of society here or what do you think?
449
00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:47.799
I think it's not just filders. I think it's artists.
450
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.759
People ask me, is anybody you've ever written about comparative
451
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.920
with Frank Lloyd Wright? And I say yeah. I wrote
452
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.559
a book called The Last Days of John Lennon with
453
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:01.680
James Patterson, and I look at and Frank looked right,
454
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:05.640
and almost the same vein two brilliant artists. They're not
455
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.359
fun to be around now. You don't want to have
456
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.720
a beer with Frank Lloyd, right, or a beer with
457
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:14.559
John Lennon. They're brilliant. They're always thinking five steps ahead
458
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:17.839
of the rest of us. And much like Frank lived
459
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:21.599
very honestly and openly with Mamelk, John Lennon left Cynthia
460
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.880
Lennon and left the Beatles to follow his heart with
461
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.200
Yoko Ono. And we wouldn't know John Lennon as the
462
00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:32.200
political icon as like we do today without Yoko. She
463
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:34.440
introduced him to politics.
464
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.480
And Lennon had numerous affairs some of them facilitated by Yoko.
465
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:41.880
He was very open about it. So in some ways
466
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:42.880
they are very similar.
467
00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:45.400
And I think you look at all the great geniuses
468
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.839
and artists over time, the oftentimes their pushing the lives
469
00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.960
are a train wreck because they're so focused on what
470
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:55.440
they're doing or they're inside their head. And I think
471
00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:59.119
we have to give them that break, quite frankly, and
472
00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:01.880
allow them to be the creative forces that they are,
473
00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:04.759
because they left us with all this incredible book.
474
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:07.960
So before we get into the research component, which is
475
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:10.079
always fascinating to me, I did just want to ask
476
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:13.119
one other thing with regard to this love triangle between
477
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:16.799
the Rights and then Mema Borthwick. That triangle was actually
478
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.559
the basis for a book that was popular about ten
479
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:22.359
years ago called Loving Frank by Nancy Horan.
480
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Did you read the book with your research?
481
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:29.079
Okay, no, there wasn't because I didn't want any subliminal
482
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.799
thoughts that she put forth to somehow found its way
483
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:35.119
into my pros. I hear great things about the book,
484
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.039
and as I always know as a journalist, truth is
485
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.079
often stranger than fiction. I had to stand alone and
486
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:46.759
really focus on my research find Frank Kitty and mema
487
00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:50.039
on my own and come up with my own idea
488
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:52.400
of who they were and what they were all about.
489
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:55.240
Now that the killer and Frank Lloyd Wright is out,
490
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:57.279
do you think you'll find time to go back and
491
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.359
read her book or are you too busy for that? Now?
492
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.759
I'm too busy so that I'm always writing, So it's
493
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:06.960
very rare that I have an opportunity to actually read.
494
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:09.440
Like I said, I hear great things about it, So
495
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.640
I'll let her enjoy the audience that she has and
496
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:13.519
I'll do my own thing.
497
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.160
Getting into the research component here, you were referencing the
498
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.640
fact that this was a one of the first true
499
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.599
celebrity scandals of its time period, which means it got
500
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:25.160
a ton of press. When you were looking through all
501
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:28.599
of this material, how did you determine what source material
502
00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:30.640
you were going to trust and how much was like
503
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:34.880
tabloid trash or tabloid fodder, Because if it was getting
504
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.400
this much reporting, there has to be some newspapers that, yeah,
505
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.160
you can trust, there's good reporting there, and others that
506
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.240
are basically selling garbage the same way that we do. Now,
507
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:46.279
How did you figure out what you could trust and
508
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:47.839
what you were going to throw aside.
509
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:52.680
Sure, that's very challenging, especially yellow journalism in the nineteen
510
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:56.440
ten to nineteen fourteen everything was embellished, So I always
511
00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:00.200
had to vet the material that I was reading by
512
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.279
going back and reading the actual newspapers up the time,
513
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.119
and then cross referencing all of any of the primary
514
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.720
source information that I had, whether those were the dusty
515
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.240
old police reports or that Frank Lloyd write biographies that
516
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:17.440
were out there. The Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation obviously has
517
00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:20.079
a lot of his writing, so you gather as much
518
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:23.319
as you can. But I looked at the reporting, I
519
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:27.079
could tell that Kitty was manipulating the story, and that
520
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.680
made me dislike Kitty. I loved her. I thought she
521
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:32.400
was doing what she felt like she needed to do
522
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:35.640
at the time. And the great thing is that much
523
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:38.519
of the reporting Frank didn't shy away from the reporters either.
524
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:43.240
He was giving exhaustive interviews to the press at the time,
525
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:46.880
as was Mema. These people didn't close the door in
526
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.079
hope that the world wouldn't come in and challenge how
527
00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:51.240
they lived their lives.
528
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.480
One of the things that Kristin and I have talked
529
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:56.200
about in the research we've done in the Colonial Parkway
530
00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:00.680
murders and other cases. Is the challenge of actually gaining
531
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:06.960
access to these older materials. Were these newspaper articles hard
532
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:09.599
to find with a microffee? Did you have to go
533
00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:11.400
to the library. How do you find it here?
534
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.319
You're stating yourself, Phil and I love it. As a
535
00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:18.359
gump share journalist, my career was based on going to
536
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.359
the library, going to the police station, going to microfiche,
537
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:27.079
and going through the whole operation of seeing these materials.
538
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:31.119
But now through tools like newspapers dot com, which is
539
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:34.599
a great tool for journalists. It's Roddy cray was created
540
00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:37.480
by ancestry dot com and I was shocked at how
541
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.440
many newspapers have been digitized going back to the early
542
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:46.079
eighteen hundreds. It's an incredible tool for journalists to use because,
543
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:49.680
like you Bill and maybe you Christin, I remember, oh yeah,
544
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.759
in all of these cases, we still do that. If
545
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:55.200
it's right there, answer fingertips, then utilize it.
546
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.279
We've run into some things with local newspapers that are
547
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:03.920
still not digitized. So yes, our research team actually has
548
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:09.839
been digging through desci old microfiche recently looking for additional information.
549
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:13.039
And that's how you find it and oftentimes there'll be
550
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:17.799
a local library where some of those materials are host
551
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.559
And it's all about building relationships with the librarians and
552
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.759
the archivists and allowed getting them to allow you to
553
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:30.000
physically hold these documents. When I did the research for
554
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.880
the Last Days of John Lennon with my co author,
555
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:35.839
not James Patterson because we worked to them in a
556
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:38.359
different way, but Dave Wedge, we had to go to
557
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:42.200
the Prosecutor's office in Lower Manhattan and we got access
558
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:45.799
to the Mark David Chapman case files. Wow, the first
559
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:48.680
time nobody had gotten access to those. And I'm talking
560
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:53.400
boxes of documents. I've actually held the arrest warrant for
561
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:56.640
Chapman in my hands, not a photo, the a worse
562
00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:00.319
warrant from jut December East, nineteen eighty with his amber on.
563
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:03.440
So that's how close you get in terms of researching
564
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.440
and investigating these stores.
565
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:07.240
And this is why you have to be nice to
566
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:12.200
librarians and clerk and people that actually control access to
567
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.359
this standard vice every which.
568
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.440
As it all comes back to you, if you carry
569
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:19.720
yourself a certain way, then people aren't going to be
570
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:22.720
or reluctant to help you out. So it's all about
571
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.680
building relationships, And at the end of the day, you're
572
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.480
only as good as the material you find and can
573
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.480
disseminate and then decide whether or not they make it
574
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:32.759
into your store.
575
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:35.759
You mentioned going to the Frank Lloyd Wright House in
576
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:39.079
oak Park. There's also Talius and tali Us and West
577
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:42.920
and Falling Water, which are probably the three other most
578
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.279
famous of his buildings. Gougenheim and the Guggenheim. Yes, of course,
579
00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:50.000
were any of the did you visit any of those?
580
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.880
And were they allowed to talk about the axe murder?
581
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:55.440
Was there the same sort of kibosh on no.
582
00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:59.559
Wheedle the catia wash on that story and I'll you
583
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.359
one better. Or at the Guggenheim Museum in New York,
584
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:06.119
if you go and explore the museum, you cannot sign
585
00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:11.400
any saying about the designer, about the architect. There's uteria
586
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:15.519
that speaks to Frank Loyd Wright's work. Meanwhile, people go
587
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:18.880
to the Gougenheim Museum. There's great art inside, but you
588
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:22.319
go because of the art outside. I was wanted that
589
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:26.039
there was barely any mention of the world's greatest architect
590
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:28.599
and the guy that design is. And I will say,
591
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:32.440
when Frank Lloyd Wright first opened the Guggenheim Museum. It
592
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.680
was an atrocity in New York City. All the architectural
593
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:40.079
critics they called it the giant toilet bowl because it
594
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:43.200
did not sit into the neighborhood and it still doesn't.
595
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:44.839
But it's an amazing piece of art.
596
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:47.720
Then I'm guessing the gift shops at all of these
597
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:49.799
places are not going to be stucking your book.
598
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:52.920
Don't think so, but Jack and if I had sent
599
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:56.319
every other bookstore on an I hope readers will pick
600
00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:59.079
it up where they can. And interesting. In Oe Park,
601
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.119
a few blocks away from Prakloyd Wright's house is the
602
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:06.799
Edwin Chaney House, another historical monument. And this is the
603
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.880
house that Frank designed for Edwin. This is the house
604
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:13.440
where Frank fell in love with Memo. And it's privately owned.
605
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:17.119
It's run down. There's the littlef looks like it's falling in,
606
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:22.400
the lawn is overgrown, and somebody who owns it should
607
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:23.840
take better care of it than they do.
608
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:26.360
Where's it located again, It's.
609
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.719
Located literally four blocks from Frank Lloyd Wright's house in
610
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:33.559
Oak Park, so you can go from one building to
611
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:33.960
the other.
612
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:35.039
I was.
613
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.400
Curious about something if we can jump back for a minute.
614
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:44.280
Did Edwin Cheney blame Frank Lloyd Wright for his former
615
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:48.079
wife's death? She wouldn't have died if she hadn't been
616
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:49.719
at Tally. Yes for him to do.
617
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.480
That, but he didn't do it public clean. He never
618
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:56.880
said anything disparaging about Frank Lloyd Wright while he was
619
00:34:56.920 --> 00:34:59.800
having an affair with his wife, and then after the
620
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:03.559
tragedy he took the bodies of his two young children
621
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:06.440
home for burial. It was a private burial. Frank buried
622
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:11.000
Mema on property. And when people talk about or dismiss mema,
623
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:14.960
as Frank Lloyd writes, Mistress, Frank Lloyd Wright only had
624
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:19.920
one desire upon his death, one order to his wife.
625
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:22.719
And Frank Ollood Wright eventually get married and had a
626
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:26.119
wonder whole family, et cetera. And his dying wish was
627
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:28.760
to be buried with me. And this is forty years after.
628
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.440
If you want to talk about a love, that's it.
629
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:35.599
Which lasted his entire life, even decades after she was gone.
630
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.639
The caveat of that whole beautiful story is that when
631
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:43.679
Frank Lloyd writes, last wife died, she had her own
632
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:46.800
last wish, which was dig him up, He's coming with me.
633
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:52.000
So they had no Frank's remains, and now they are
634
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:56.599
both interred at Talies and West in Arizona. Their ashes
635
00:35:56.599 --> 00:35:58.599
are spread somewhere nobody knows where they are.
636
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:03.440
Wait, so we're actually fighting over Frank Lloyd Wright's body.
637
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.840
You dead by this point, course long dead.
638
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.320
Before we let you go, Casey, we do want to
639
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:15.559
talk about your next book, which is very personal and
640
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.360
it involves your aunt Mary's case, Boston Strangler.
641
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:22.280
Talk to us about American Ripper. If you're comfortable with it.
642
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:24.199
Yeah, no, I am. It comes out. I may have
643
00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:27.320
next year I write. Didn't publish a book. A year, guys,
644
00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:31.159
I was involved in a documentary for NBC Peacock called
645
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:35.119
Boston Strangler On her Concession. The chronicles my reinvestigation with
646
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:38.320
the case. I was somewhat reluctant to be part of
647
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.519
that documentary, but I did it, and afterwards I sat
648
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.880
down with my wife and like any journalist or investigative
649
00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:47.480
journalist or detective, I always thought to myself, did I
650
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:50.960
miss something? Did I miss something in my original investigation?
651
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:53.559
And I said, I'm just going to give it some time,
652
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.440
and I'm going to go back and look I found
653
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.000
that I missed a lot. And what I discovered was
654
00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:04.119
that there wasn't just eleven to thirteen women murdered in Boston.
655
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:08.760
There were sixty seven women killed across the United States
656
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:13.519
from nineteen sixty two to nineteen sixty seven. And the
657
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:17.599
earmarks on all of these murders were three ligatures wrapped
658
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:20.440
around the necks in the bodies of these women, young
659
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:24.679
and old, left in provocative poses. Now I was able
660
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:28.599
to find the nexus to all of these murders and
661
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:33.280
bring them back to Boston ground zero for a murder
662
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:36.400
spree that spread like a virus across Americas.
663
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:39.559
And this will be covered in the new American Ripper
664
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:40.719
that comes out next year.
665
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:41.639
Correct.
666
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:43.559
Do you think you're onto something?
667
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:44.079
Oh?
668
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.280
Yeah, I think that this when the public first gets
669
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.599
an understanding of how this motor spree spread. And we're
670
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:56.679
talking about one individual murdering sixty seven women. We're talking
671
00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:01.360
about men capable of murder reading at the Boston Strangler
672
00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:04.039
in their local newspapers. And I'm going to give you
673
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.480
real exam In Oakland, California, a budding killer reads about
674
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:11.800
a Boston Strangler murderer in the Oakland Tribune. Because all
675
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.360
the details were provided at the time newspapers. They don't
676
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.880
do that today. They hold details back that provided a
677
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:24.000
blueprint for this person. That person goes to his neighbor community,
678
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:28.840
murders a mother and her teenage daughter, perhaps three ligatures
679
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:33.639
around their necks, and leaves their bodies staged in provocative poses. Now,
680
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:37.079
the Boston police were consulted in all of these crimes.
681
00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:41.480
Has anyone ever gone public with the idea that these
682
00:38:41.559 --> 00:38:45.119
murders were actually related or at least inspired by the
683
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:45.840
Boston strangle?
684
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:50.719
That is the new information coming in the American Lipper.
685
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.599
Can't wait to read it? Can't wait? Sound?
686
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:57.000
Well? You know, I'm going to send you an early galley. Ah,
687
00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:59.840
there you go. Yeah.
688
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:02.760
And we should mention, by the way, that this is
689
00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:05.079
the third book of yours that you have asked me
690
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:08.280
to blurb. And I really appreciate every opportunity to read
691
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:09.360
your work early, Casey.
692
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:10.320
I appreciate it.
693
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:13.400
Your work is amazing, and I just can't thank you
694
00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:14.679
enough for the opportunities.
695
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:17.480
It's all all mine, Bill. I love coming on with
696
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:20.000
you guys, and I love how dedicated you are to
697
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:21.840
the truth, because at the end of the day is
698
00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:24.840
what we're all looking for and obviously with your personal
699
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:28.039
connections and the stories that you worked on and covered together,
700
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:31.480
there's also a heart to these stories as well, and
701
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:33.880
a great responsibility for people, I guess to get the
702
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:34.480
story right.
703
00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:38.159
Do you find you have to play down your fandom
704
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:40.519
for the Boston Red Sox when you travel to these
705
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:41.199
other cities.
706
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:44.039
If you had talked to me a month ago, Bill,
707
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:47.039
when the Red Sox were in last place and having
708
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:51.119
the worst the season on record, I would have said, yeah,
709
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.280
I didn't tell anybody I was a Red Sox fan.
710
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:57.880
But Kasey, that's the ancient history. Now, this is one
711
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:01.320
of the great stories in all of sports. If they
712
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:03.679
can maintain that momentum, it's been great to watch.
713
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.360
The Red Sox are famous for comebacks, and it looks
714
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:08.199
like we're having another one as we speak.
715
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:11.679
Yeah, let's see knock on wood. Let's see what October braves.
716
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:14.000
Hey, Casey, tell everybody where we can find your book.
717
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.400
You can find The Killer of Frank Loid right at
718
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.239
any bookstore in America. You can also find it on
719
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:21.880
audible as well, and you can find it at your
720
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:26.320
local library. So, however, you consume this amazing story again
721
00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:28.840
you're going to learn a story about murder, but you're
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00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:31.039
also going to learn a great love story as well.
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Thank you so much, Casey for joining us. We really
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appreciate it. Thanks everybody that's going to do it for
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this episode of mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much
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for listening. We'll see you next time.
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Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
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Another Dog Productions.
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Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
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Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
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Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.
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Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.
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You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
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You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
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Murders on Facebook.
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And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
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Bill Thomas five six.
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Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.