WEBVTT
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Treacherous ring roads lie ahead on our mission to reach Nana's.
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We must.
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Go to Mackey's for black pepper and garlic McNuggets. Navigation rerouting.
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The main mission can wait. Take a side mission to McDonald's.
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I have a feeling you'll recognize my next guest just
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from the sound of his voice. After more than five
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decades in the news business, he is a legend in
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his own right and has been called the granddaddy of
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true crime, and rightfully so. But I have the distinct
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honor of calling him a colleague and friend. Keith Morrison
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is an award-winning correspondent for Dateline NBC, a beloved journalist,
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and host of multiple number one podcasts. He's made a
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specialty of true crime mysteries and has gained status as
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a pop culture icon known and loved for his signature voice,
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that warm, rhythmic baritone. Keith's work has garnered Emmy and
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Edward R. Murrow Awards, among others, and has earned him
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a spot in the Broadcasting and Cable Hall of Fame.
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He is a husband, a father, and, as evidenced in
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his reporting, a deeply compassionate human being. Keith, who has
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spent a lifetime interviewing others, is noticeably more comfortable telling
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the stories of other people. But here today, Keith and
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I discuss his prolific career, dateline, and the recent loss
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of his stepson, actor Matthew Perry.
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I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space.
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Making Space.
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Keith, first of all, I just want anyone who's listening
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to know this.
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I've known you for a long, long time since I
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first started working at Dateline.
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Yeah.
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I have to say you were one of the warmest
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and most kindest spirits because it can be scary stepping
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into this whole sort of network thing. And it struck me,
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like I have to say, when I started working at
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Dateline and met you, my heart just kind of rested
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because I was.
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Like, really nice, cool people work here.
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So tell me about you becoming a journalist because you
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have this, as I think one of the other producers described,
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you're like, You're like the Mr. Rogers of murder mysteries.
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You've got that vibe. So how did you decide this
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was the right field for you?
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Oh, I didn't really. Mostly failed out of other fields.
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But to your first point, when I went to Dateline myself,
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it was the same kind of feeling because it is,
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I mean, what's that famous line that TV business is
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a cruel money trench where thieves and pimps run free
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and good men die like dogs. But Dateline wasn't like that.
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Dateline has always been a family of people who care
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about each other. And, you know, when you came along,
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everybody cared about you.
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And I.
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Felt the same way myself. So that's, yeah, that's Dateline.
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But I, you know, I got into this business just because, well...
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Do you really care? A long, long, long time ago.
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Yes, I actually really want to know. I want to know.
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I want to know.
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A long time ago, I was busy doing things other
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than what I was supposed to be doing at college.
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I was in various political clubs and things, very important stuff,
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but I didn't pay any attention to my studies. And
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so my dean, the dean of the school I was in, said,
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why don't you go away for a couple of years
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and grow up, and maybe you should come back after that.
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I was insulted, of course, but I said, that's fine.
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I would. I didn't have any choice. And my dad
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was a preacher. I was let go from the school
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in about February. My dad was a preacher, and every spring,
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they would send young theology students out to the little
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small towns around Saskatchewan to fill in for ministers who
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were taking a month off. So you spend the whole
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summer doing that. And I had, you know, I wasn't
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in theology school, but, but I thought, well, I've, you know,
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I've been around my dad when he's preaching for my
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whole life. So I sort of know what to do.
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So I did that for the summer. And, and that's
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what made me realize I didn't want to be in
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the religion business. But when that was over, then it
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was really stuck. I didn't know what to do. And I,
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It was too soon to go back to school. So
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I was sitting in my grandfather's house one day watching television.
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And the early evening local news came on. And this
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guy started reading a story about something or other. And
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it was like a little revelation that came over me.
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And I said to myself, I can do better than that.
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And so I started applying around at local TV and
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radio stations. until somebody hired me in a little radio station.
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Was there something about, because you talked about your dad
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being a preacher, and I think that's interesting.
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And back up a second.
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When your dean said you're not to come back to school,
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did your parents, like, freak out?
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They weren't surprised. They were not surprised at all. They
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knew me pretty well, you know.
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So did your dad want you to go into business
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with him? Did he think that this was the right
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lane for you?
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No, I think he just thought, well, kid needs something
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to do and he actually might be okay at this.
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So why not give him a shot?
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Well, I read, I read Keith that you were actually, um,
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there was a funeral that was upcoming. A woman had
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lost her husband and you were, you were, yeah, you
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were important in that.
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Well, I wasn't, I, it was right after I started this. Um,
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and it was a old farmer, um, I thought he
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was extremely old at the time, a man about 80, died.
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And it was my job to kind of go over
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and make the arrangements for the funeral and to help
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conduct it. But also his wife, his widow, seemed to
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look at me as somebody who she could lean on
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and somebody she could look to for some wisdom about
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all of this or what to think about it all
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because she was devastated. I think that was really the
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moment when I thought this is, this is not work
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for flakes like me. This needs somebody who's truly grown up. So, uh, yeah,
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it was quite an experience.
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That's scary. That's a lot for a kid.
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Yeah.
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So when you got started, Keith, in this business, did it,
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was it one of those instant, like, yeah, I got
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this or did it take a while to take?
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Well, that first job in a radio station was, um,
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at a place called CKOM in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. And the
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news director was a guy who'd been a neighbor of mine, actually,
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and I'd done errands for him for a while. But
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he was a curmudgeonly old guy. I would drive him
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to work sometimes, and he would, I'm digressing a little,
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he would get into the car and he would have
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a shopping, just a little paper bag, a paper sack
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with him, like a lunch bag. And in the lunch bag,
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he was curious to sell what was in there, but
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there was a bag of glue, a little white glue bag,
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a bottle, and a bottle of an alcoholic beverage. And
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by the end of the day, they were generally both gone.
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But he would use the glue, and this was the
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interesting part to me. He would get a sheet of
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8x11 paper. He would take people's scripts. for the radio newscast.
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And he would cut them up into little bits and
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he'd rearrange them on the page and glue them onto
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the page. That's how he'd always done it as a
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newspaper editor. And so he decided this should work for radio,
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which was a good idea. And then you go into
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the radio, to the, to the booth to read this newscast.
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And it was all stuck together because of the glue,
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but that was a curious experience. But after a, A
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couple of months, and they gave me a regular gig
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to read the news on this radio station in the morning.
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And I slept in three days in a row. And
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so they fired me, and I had to find another job.
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What were you doing? What were you doing? Were you
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out the night before? What was happening?
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I just found it hard to wake up in the
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morning in those days. It was a late bloomer. I
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couldn't grow up.
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By the way, did you have those pipes back then,
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or is that something you grew into?
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Well, you get old, you know. It happens. Your voice
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will deepen as.
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You get older.
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Well, I have to say, I want to get— I love this.
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I love to know your backstory, because I didn't even
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know all this. I didn't know you're one of, one
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of five?
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Yes, one of five. Yeah. Yes, and they were all
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quite accomplished, except for their ne'er-do-well brother.
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So where did you fall in the pecking order?
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Second youngest. Yeah. And they are spread across Canada still.
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So as the second youngest, like I'm the middle kid,
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so I often feel like my sister got all the attention,
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good or bad. You know, she was always kind of
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the one they either came down on or the one
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who got all the attention.
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And my little brother was the boy they'd waited for
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their whole lives. So yay, yay, here comes the prince.
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And I was kind of the middle one who sort
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of got lost in the sauce a little bit.
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How did your childhood experience feel for you? Well, I was.
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I always felt like I got away with stuff the
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others didn't get away with. That somehow they made allowances
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for me. My parents did not have favorites. It wasn't
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like that. But I always, from the time I was
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a little kid, felt that kind of warmth of family
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around me. Like it was as if I was... favorite child.
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Probably we all felt that way to some degree. But,
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you know, I was the guy who, I was the
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kid who got away with stuff. There was a middle
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child in our family, one up from me, and she
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was the peacemaker, peacekeeper that wanted to do everything right.
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There was the youngest one who was a bit of a,
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she was annoying, but that's what youngest ones are supposed
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to be. The eldest was really a leader. The second
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eldest was studious and hardworking and Yeah. So the pattern
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is quite similar in most families, I find.
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I think so. I think so.
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What lessons, Keith, did your, what do you think the
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biggest lesson your dad taught you was?
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Well, I never really felt like I was living up
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to any of the lessons that he had, but there
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are different ways to be male, to be strong. To
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be a real man. And we see it expressed all
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the time in our society. There's the aggressive and abrasive
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kind of male who's probably a little insecure. And there's
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the softer spoken one who isn't sure he's right all
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the time. And that's who my dad was, who stressed,
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you know, compassion and kindness. I mean, I was a
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very lucky guy. It sounds a little Pollyanna, but... That's
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how I grew up. But there's a time when you're
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a boy growing up and you want your dad to
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be that really strong guy who can, you know, be
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the tough guy on the playground who can tell other
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dads off and, you know. And for a time I
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thought I was a little embarrassed that he wouldn't do that. But,
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you know, then you get to the point where you realize,
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you know, it's not the way to live. There's a
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better way.
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Yeah, that's an interesting observation.
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Right.
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You want your dad to be kind of the big man.
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Yeah.
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Do you know when he was proudest of you, Keith?
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I don't really. I can't name a time particularly, no. No.
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Was he proud of you?
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I'm pretty sure he was, yeah.
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Coming up, I share one of the many lessons that
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Keith taught me at Dateline. And we get a sneak
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peek at the upcoming Dateline original podcast, Murder in the
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Hollywood Hills.
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Stay with us.
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This is an arrow. Mmm.
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And this is the sound of its minty bubbles. Conjuring
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melt in your mouth. Pure, bubbly joy. Melt into the
243
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You have such a way about you, and you played
267
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:36.929
an important part in my life. One of the ways,
268
00:15:36.970 --> 00:15:39.870
I still remember this. I was working for Dateline and
269
00:15:39.889 --> 00:15:42.470
I felt like I was sort of behind in everything.
270
00:15:42.490 --> 00:15:45.879
I didn't have the interview skills. I didn't have all
271
00:15:45.909 --> 00:15:48.779
the things that you needed, the writing. And Neil Shapiro,
272
00:15:48.820 --> 00:15:50.690
our boss, called me and he said... but I was like,
273
00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:52.590
at least I have a voice. That's one decent thing.
274
00:15:52.610 --> 00:15:54.269
He goes, Hoda, come in here. I need to talk
275
00:15:54.289 --> 00:15:56.110
to you. I'm like, okay. He's like, it's about your voice.
276
00:15:56.429 --> 00:15:59.139
I'm like, God, what is wrong with that?
277
00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:02.360
He was like, listen, all your things sound the same,
278
00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:05.299
whether you're tiptoeing through the roses or whether you're on
279
00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:07.019
a freight train, you always sound the same.
280
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:08.320
So he wrote down some words on.
281
00:16:08.299 --> 00:16:11.129
A piece of paper and he wrote down the words
282
00:16:11.169 --> 00:16:13.750
and then something amazing happened and he handed it to me.
283
00:16:14.110 --> 00:16:16.269
He goes, read that. And I was like, and then
284
00:16:16.330 --> 00:16:18.830
something amazing happened. He goes, punch it. I go, Then
285
00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:21.389
something amazing happened. He said, I didn't say loud. I said,
286
00:16:21.429 --> 00:16:21.809
punch it.
287
00:16:22.450 --> 00:16:24.570
And I said, Neil, I don't know what you're talking about, man.
288
00:16:24.610 --> 00:16:28.509
I feel lost here. I feel dumb. And he goes,
289
00:16:28.549 --> 00:16:30.309
give me the paperback. And he looked at it and
290
00:16:30.330 --> 00:16:34.720
he goes, and then something amazing happened. He goes, see
291
00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:36.740
what I did there? He goes, think about that. So
292
00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:39.730
I'm kind of walking out bewildered. And I walked to
293
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:43.590
the fifth floor booth and you were voicing a whole
294
00:16:43.649 --> 00:16:47.350
Dateline hour. I stood outside of the booth and listened
295
00:16:47.370 --> 00:16:49.429
because that was when they had the speakers out there.
296
00:16:50.190 --> 00:16:52.990
And when you came out, I'll never forget this. I said,
297
00:16:53.129 --> 00:16:56.190
what are you doing in that booth? Because it was masterful.
298
00:16:56.649 --> 00:16:59.929
And you said, I'm reading my kid.
299
00:16:59.649 --> 00:17:00.980
A children's story.
300
00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.799
And then I was like, and then something happened.
301
00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:07.960
Amazing happened. It just hit me.
302
00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:11.940
And it changed the way I told stories from that
303
00:17:11.980 --> 00:17:12.700
day forward.
304
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.119
I remember that day when you asked the question.
305
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:19.849
I thought, oh, it's asking me. It's crazy. Please.
306
00:17:20.230 --> 00:17:23.869
But what this has turned into, it's so interesting because
307
00:17:24.789 --> 00:17:28.410
you are soft-spoken with a huge personality that people call
308
00:17:28.470 --> 00:17:31.430
you like, I was reading all these articles, the sexy
309
00:17:31.470 --> 00:17:34.720
dateline guy. You made everything, like it's become.
310
00:17:35.849 --> 00:17:37.750
Wild. So what happened?
311
00:17:38.150 --> 00:17:41.470
When did you transform or when did the world transform
312
00:17:41.630 --> 00:17:45.490
from whatever it was to this, this kind of like this?
313
00:17:45.970 --> 00:17:46.730
It's crazy.
314
00:17:46.750 --> 00:17:50.430
I don't know. I, you know, I don't.
315
00:17:52.710 --> 00:17:52.910
Know.
316
00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:55.170
Do you hate talking about yourself real quick?
317
00:17:55.549 --> 00:17:56.089
Quite a lot.
318
00:17:56.410 --> 00:17:57.950
Is this unbearable to you?
319
00:17:57.970 --> 00:18:01.599
I'm not a very good interview, I'm afraid. I'm sorry.
320
00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:04.819
No, but you know why?
321
00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:07.079
Because you're the kindest guy in the world and you
322
00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:10.400
hate talking about yourself, which is another great trait of yours.
323
00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.089
But you do have rock star status, whether you like
324
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:13.549
it or not.
325
00:18:14.269 --> 00:18:16.809
It's a weird thing. I just don't get it at all. But,
326
00:18:16.930 --> 00:18:22.089
you know, it's, I mean, I don't mind. It's quite nice.
327
00:18:23.589 --> 00:18:25.049
People are very nice to me. What do people say?
328
00:18:25.069 --> 00:18:26.990
They come up on the street and they want their photographs.
329
00:18:27.470 --> 00:18:31.279
You know about that. But they're, you know, it's a,
330
00:18:31.859 --> 00:18:34.619
We're lucky people, you and I. We are.
331
00:18:35.299 --> 00:18:35.819
We are.
332
00:18:37.029 --> 00:18:38.569
What do you get asked the most on the street?
333
00:18:39.410 --> 00:18:43.569
Who do I get asked the most? Gee, that's a
334
00:18:43.609 --> 00:18:47.269
very good question. I don't think there's an answer to
335
00:18:47.309 --> 00:18:47.890
that question.
336
00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:48.950
I bet you they ask you.
337
00:18:49.009 --> 00:18:51.509
I know Savannah stopped you, and I know this because
338
00:18:51.549 --> 00:18:54.329
I call her phone because nobody calls her, and her
339
00:18:54.430 --> 00:18:56.349
voicemail is you.
340
00:18:56.490 --> 00:18:57.670
Yeah.
341
00:18:57.690 --> 00:18:59.690
She asked you to do her voicemail, and that's where
342
00:18:59.730 --> 00:18:59.970
it is.
343
00:19:02.779 --> 00:19:05.960
Mostly people ask about, they want to talk about stories, right?
344
00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.420
Do you remember the story you did about such and such?
345
00:19:08.500 --> 00:19:10.779
I have no clue what they're talking about because, for
346
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:14.539
one thing, as you know, somebody else on the staff,
347
00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:20.569
Susan Nall, names the stories just before we go on television.
348
00:19:20.589 --> 00:19:25.950
I never have a clue what they're called, often afterwards even. But, yeah,
349
00:19:25.990 --> 00:19:27.529
so that question is frequent.
350
00:19:31.819 --> 00:19:34.359
Now, did you ever, when you described, you were telling
351
00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:36.789
me early on about how you felt like you were
352
00:19:36.829 --> 00:19:39.170
not worthy of sitting with this person who had lost
353
00:19:39.230 --> 00:19:42.289
a loved one back in the day when you were,
354
00:19:42.410 --> 00:19:45.910
you know, kind of going in your father's lane we're,
355
00:19:46.410 --> 00:19:48.990
you know, in that spiritual world. Yet here you sit
356
00:19:49.029 --> 00:19:52.589
across from people all the time, Keith, who are handing
357
00:19:52.609 --> 00:19:55.329
you with kid gloves a secret that maybe they've never
358
00:19:55.390 --> 00:19:56.470
told anyone before.
359
00:19:56.490 --> 00:19:57.509
Right.
360
00:19:57.769 --> 00:20:01.619
And kind of trusting you with all of that. How
361
00:20:01.670 --> 00:20:05.740
do you receive that and how do you not carry
362
00:20:05.779 --> 00:20:07.180
it all around with you?
363
00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:10.220
First of all, it's an amazing privilege to be given
364
00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:18.829
that opportunity. I still find it remarkable that you can
365
00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:22.329
be in a room with half a dozen other people,
366
00:20:22.349 --> 00:20:26.049
a couple of television cameras, lights everywhere, and the knowledge
367
00:20:26.190 --> 00:20:29.400
that what you're saying to this guy sitting over there
368
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.200
will be seen by millions of people. And you're being
369
00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.720
asked questions that are the most intimate questions. You can
370
00:20:38.740 --> 00:20:40.839
be asked questions that even members of your family would
371
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:45.859
be hesitant to ask you. And they answer those questions. Um,
372
00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:50.809
and they do trust us with some deep and, uh,
373
00:20:52.690 --> 00:20:57.829
vulnerable kinds of thoughts. And so you have to be
374
00:20:57.869 --> 00:21:02.210
careful with that stuff. I see so much on in
375
00:21:02.269 --> 00:21:07.559
media where, uh, People are not careful with the stories
376
00:21:07.619 --> 00:21:11.049
of individuals who have gone through something difficult and bad.
377
00:21:11.329 --> 00:21:15.789
They use it for advantage, for, you know, clickbait, where
378
00:21:17.289 --> 00:21:20.730
these are truly, truly, truly deep and difficult things to
379
00:21:20.769 --> 00:21:23.309
get through. And I don't think we want to make
380
00:21:23.349 --> 00:21:25.920
it any worse for anybody. But I come away from
381
00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:30.640
those conversations feeling it's a gift. They've given you something.
382
00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:37.480
Well, You've got a new season of the Dateline podcast.
383
00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:38.119
We sure do.
384
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:38.700
Yeah.
385
00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:42.480
These are all kind of, these are great stories, all
386
00:21:42.529 --> 00:21:47.390
of them. And you're unshackled when you're doing podcast storytelling.
387
00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:49.589
You don't have pictures to worry about. You don't have
388
00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:52.410
to hit certain commercial breaks. I mean, we still have some,
389
00:21:52.470 --> 00:21:54.269
but not as many. And you can go as long
390
00:21:54.309 --> 00:21:56.690
as you want. And you can just let your fingers
391
00:21:56.769 --> 00:22:00.910
fly and let your thoughts go. So I love doing them.
392
00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:06.960
And this latest one that's, is called Murder in the
393
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:14.900
Hollywood Hills. And it's a story that I think gets
394
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:19.480
at a real problem. And it also has, I'm trying
395
00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:20.880
to think of how much I can say without giving
396
00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:24.900
it away, but it has an ending that is in
397
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:31.250
some ways pretty satisfying, especially for, well, I don't know.
398
00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:33.990
That didn't tell you much at all, did it?
399
00:22:34.619 --> 00:22:35.950
It's a good one. I like this one. Well, but
400
00:22:35.970 --> 00:22:38.779
if you say something satisfying, it means it's real good.
401
00:22:38.819 --> 00:22:40.980
Well, I think it might be satisfying to you, and
402
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.680
I think it might be satisfying to a lot of women, especially,
403
00:22:46.220 --> 00:22:51.640
but men, too. It's about people fighting back.
404
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:53.710
Well, I love it.
405
00:22:53.940 --> 00:22:54.200
All right.
406
00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:56.619
Well, we always love a Dateline podcast. We have a
407
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.880
Dateline everything. I mean, the longest-running show, I think.
408
00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:02.859
After On Order or before. And we love it whenever
409
00:23:02.900 --> 00:23:03.819
you're on it, actually.
410
00:23:04.930 --> 00:23:05.910
Oh, thank you, Keith.
411
00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:11.430
Still ahead, Keith opens up about his relationship with his stepson,
412
00:23:11.569 --> 00:23:14.380
the late actor Matthew Perry, when we come back.
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No, it's simple.
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Go to Quagga Fáin Géidh in Irish.
424
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Well, with that, I'll ask you about somebody near and
442
00:25:01.730 --> 00:25:04.589
dear to your heart. A lot of people don't even
443
00:25:04.650 --> 00:25:12.190
realize that you are Matthew Perry's stepfather. And I was
444
00:25:12.210 --> 00:25:15.259
thinking about you during that time, Keith, I saw one
445
00:25:15.339 --> 00:25:20.369
fleeting image of you there when everything was going on.
446
00:25:20.410 --> 00:25:24.069
And I, I wondered how you were doing. First of all,
447
00:25:24.329 --> 00:25:28.549
how are you and how is your wife after Matthew's passing?
448
00:25:30.349 --> 00:25:39.349
Well, it's a, it, as other people have told me
449
00:25:39.650 --> 00:25:44.539
hundreds of times, it doesn't go away. It, it, It's
450
00:25:44.579 --> 00:25:46.480
with you every day. It's with you all the time.
451
00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:54.720
And there's some new aspect of it that assaults your brain. And,
452
00:25:54.740 --> 00:25:59.119
you know, it's not easy. It's especially for his mom.
453
00:26:00.740 --> 00:26:06.130
And they were, I don't think I'm giving away too
454
00:26:06.150 --> 00:26:08.390
much if I say that toward the end of his life, they,
455
00:26:09.609 --> 00:26:13.150
they were, closer than I've seen them, had seen them
456
00:26:13.170 --> 00:26:19.660
for decades and texting each other constantly and him sharing
457
00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:23.140
things with her that most middle-aged men don't share with
458
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:30.289
their mothers. And then, so he was happy and he
459
00:26:30.349 --> 00:26:33.329
said so. And he hadn't said that for a long time.
460
00:26:34.730 --> 00:26:39.960
And so that gives, it's a source of comfort, but
461
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:43.420
also You know, he didn't get to have his third act,
462
00:26:43.619 --> 00:26:51.839
and that's not fair. And as he said himself, if
463
00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:56.099
I suddenly died, people would be shocked, but not too
464
00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:59.640
many people would be surprised. And he was right, I think.
465
00:27:03.529 --> 00:27:04.430
Did it surprise you?
466
00:27:04.450 --> 00:27:10.519
It was the news you never want to get. But
467
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:17.619
you think someday you might. So yes and no, I guess,
468
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:22.190
is the answer to that. Yeah.
469
00:27:23.029 --> 00:27:26.890
Do you still feel his presence? Do you still sense him?
470
00:27:27.809 --> 00:27:31.869
He was a larger-than-life person. You know, we do this,
471
00:27:32.109 --> 00:27:37.869
it's become this funny trope of Dateline, lit up a room, right,
472
00:27:37.970 --> 00:27:41.140
or the center of the room. Well, he was, and
473
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.660
he was always the center of attention everywhere he went.
474
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:49.039
That kind of personality. He was goofy, he was funny,
475
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:53.289
he was acerbic. But even if he didn't say a word,
476
00:27:53.309 --> 00:27:57.630
he was the center of attention. So, yes, I mean,
477
00:27:57.650 --> 00:28:03.390
it's gone, but you still feel the echo of it
478
00:28:03.450 --> 00:28:05.910
everywhere around here. Yeah.
479
00:28:07.609 --> 00:28:07.829
Yeah.
480
00:28:08.660 --> 00:28:12.200
It seemed by so many accounts he was on the mend.
481
00:28:12.289 --> 00:28:14.890
I mean, that's what it seemed like.
482
00:28:15.829 --> 00:28:18.410
As he put it himself in his book and in
483
00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:21.349
the talks that he had about his book, it is
484
00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:25.309
a disease and it's a very, very difficult one to beat.
485
00:28:28.390 --> 00:28:33.490
I don't think he ever would have said... He felt
486
00:28:33.529 --> 00:28:37.430
like he was beating it, but you never beat it.
487
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:42.170
and he knew that too.
488
00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:48.710
Keith, I'm really sorry.
489
00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:50.269
Yeah, well, thank you.
490
00:28:50.869 --> 00:28:51.609
I'm really sorry.
491
00:28:51.630 --> 00:28:53.210
Okay.
492
00:28:53.230 --> 00:28:56.799
I know that you and your wife have started a foundation.
493
00:28:56.819 --> 00:28:56.890
Yes.
494
00:28:56.900 --> 00:28:59.000
Tell me about that.
495
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:03.680
Yes, with the help of some very capable people. Yeah,
496
00:29:03.700 --> 00:29:07.259
the Matthew Perry Foundation, and it's a... The goal is
497
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.960
to do whatever can be done to help organizations that
498
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:18.579
are trying to identify the disease and how to deal
499
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:23.309
with the disease. And agencies and organizations that are specifically
500
00:29:24.069 --> 00:29:27.309
helping rescue people in difficult situations and trying to scoop
501
00:29:27.349 --> 00:29:30.309
them out of a vulnerable place and get them some help,
502
00:29:32.450 --> 00:29:35.519
a chance to beat it. To, you know, to beat
503
00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:40.849
it back. You're always beating it back, right? The disease
504
00:29:40.910 --> 00:29:43.289
is built in. It doesn't, I don't, I really don't
505
00:29:43.329 --> 00:29:45.730
think it ever goes away. It's in your brain and
506
00:29:46.730 --> 00:29:47.670
brain doesn't want to let it go.
507
00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:53.599
And is this foundation helping Suzanne sometimes when you have
508
00:29:53.619 --> 00:29:55.430
a place to, a place to go?
509
00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:57.940
I think it's going to. It takes a while to
510
00:29:57.980 --> 00:30:00.490
get these things rolling, as you know. So, yes, I
511
00:30:00.509 --> 00:30:05.170
think it definitely. And, you know, Matthew grew up in Canada,
512
00:30:05.529 --> 00:30:08.460
in Ottawa, and it's important to us. And I think
513
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:14.599
that that will be her, one of her big concerns
514
00:30:14.660 --> 00:30:17.460
is making sure that there is a good Canadian presence
515
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.410
for this because he is, you know, loved in Canada,
516
00:30:20.450 --> 00:30:23.930
as you can imagine. And so that'll be important.
517
00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:28.009
And just lastly on this subject, Keith, how would you
518
00:30:28.049 --> 00:30:30.930
describe him as a stepson, your relationship with him?
519
00:30:32.470 --> 00:30:38.140
Well, in a way, our personalities were, as they say,
520
00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:43.549
chalk and cheese. He was loud and out there and
521
00:30:43.630 --> 00:30:47.930
funny and aggressive. I'd take him to hockey games on
522
00:30:47.970 --> 00:30:50.650
Saturday mornings, and he would always score all the goals.
523
00:30:50.970 --> 00:30:52.519
And if he didn't score all the goals, he was
524
00:30:52.670 --> 00:30:55.339
so angry all the way home. He wouldn't talk to anybody.
525
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.700
He was really mad. You take him to a tennis match,
526
00:30:58.779 --> 00:31:01.440
and he'd usually win. He was a very good tennis player.
527
00:31:02.059 --> 00:31:03.539
But if he missed a shot, if he missed a
528
00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:06.170
shot a couple of times— his racket would be on
529
00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:08.450
the ground and he'd be stomping on it and trying
530
00:31:08.470 --> 00:31:11.109
to break it into pieces. He was so mad. And
531
00:31:11.710 --> 00:31:17.130
so he had that kind of very fiery personality. And,
532
00:31:18.730 --> 00:31:21.150
and mine is not like that, as you can imagine,
533
00:31:21.730 --> 00:31:26.390
but we got along fine. You know, we, I never
534
00:31:26.430 --> 00:31:30.059
tried to replace his dad because dads are dads, but
535
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:34.059
I was, I was there for him and he knew it. And, and,
536
00:31:34.789 --> 00:31:36.430
And we were close.
537
00:31:37.670 --> 00:31:40.009
So you were able to support him throughout, Keith, throughout
538
00:31:40.049 --> 00:31:40.650
all those years?
539
00:31:41.289 --> 00:31:48.380
As much as possible, yeah. As much as possible. That's
540
00:31:48.420 --> 00:31:53.319
a whirlwind of a life to get involved in a
541
00:31:53.640 --> 00:32:00.809
program that became as wildly successful as it was. To
542
00:32:00.849 --> 00:32:05.099
be fighting an addiction that was so virulent that went
543
00:32:05.150 --> 00:32:09.740
after him so hard. And he gave into it frequently, frequently.
544
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.440
He came to understand. He'd get to a certain point,
545
00:32:13.940 --> 00:32:16.509
and then he knew he had to go and get treatment.
546
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:23.109
And he'd accept help when he needed it. But as
547
00:32:23.130 --> 00:32:27.269
he said himself, it just kept happening. And it was
548
00:32:27.309 --> 00:32:29.230
a big bear. It was a tough thing to beat,
549
00:32:29.259 --> 00:32:31.380
a big, terrible thing.
550
00:32:36.049 --> 00:32:40.210
Well, Keith, just lastly, when you make space for yourself,
551
00:32:40.589 --> 00:32:43.670
when you get a day that's all for you, no commitments,
552
00:32:43.750 --> 00:32:47.880
no interviews, no nothing, how do you feel that day?
553
00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:55.940
Oh, I'm very happy. You know, I need to fuss around.
554
00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:57.420
I need to do a little bit of something here
555
00:32:57.460 --> 00:33:00.559
and there. So if I have absolutely nothing, I do...
556
00:33:04.630 --> 00:33:09.490
start looking around and maybe bothering people too much. But no,
557
00:33:09.529 --> 00:33:14.269
I'm just generally a happy person. I don't have a
558
00:33:14.329 --> 00:33:15.569
lot of drive, actually.
559
00:33:15.890 --> 00:33:23.259
I don't agree. I don't agree. I don't agree. Keith,
560
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:25.519
you are an awesome human being.
561
00:33:25.539 --> 00:33:26.119
You're wonderful.
562
00:33:26.140 --> 00:33:27.140
Thank you so much for sitting with me today.
563
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:28.089
It was an honor to talk to you.
564
00:33:28.099 --> 00:33:29.069
I really appreciate it.
565
00:33:29.299 --> 00:33:29.740
Take care.
566
00:33:30.339 --> 00:33:32.000
Thank you, sweetie. All right, I'll see you soon.
567
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:32.829
Bye. Bye.
568
00:33:40.460 --> 00:33:43.440
Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Alison Berger
569
00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:47.960
and Alexa Casavecchia. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Mastrilli.
570
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:52.500
Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Catherine Anderson. Original
571
00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:55.740
music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of
572
00:33:55.809 --> 00:33:59.930
audio production. Missy Dunlop-Persons is our executive producer. Libby Leist
573
00:34:00.009 --> 00:34:02.910
is the executive vice president of Today and Lifestyle.
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00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:16.460
This is an Aero.
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I have a feeling you'll recognize my next guest just
16
00:01:01.310 --> 00:01:04.129
from the sound of his voice. After more than five
17
00:01:04.209 --> 00:01:07.370
decades in the news business, he is a legend in
18
00:01:07.409 --> 00:01:10.469
his own right and has been called the granddaddy of
19
00:01:10.590 --> 00:01:14.469
true crime, and rightfully so. But I have the distinct
20
00:01:14.549 --> 00:01:18.390
honor of calling him a colleague and friend. Keith Morrison
21
00:01:18.450 --> 00:01:22.150
is an award-winning correspondent for Dateline NBC, a beloved journalist,
22
00:01:22.629 --> 00:01:26.280
and host of multiple number one podcasts. He's made a
23
00:01:26.299 --> 00:01:29.799
specialty of true crime mysteries and has gained status as
24
00:01:29.859 --> 00:01:34.019
a pop culture icon known and loved for his signature voice,
25
00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:40.280
that warm, rhythmic baritone. Keith's work has garnered Emmy and
26
00:01:40.459 --> 00:01:44.060
Edward R. Murrow Awards, among others, and has earned him
27
00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:47.180
a spot in the Broadcasting and Cable Hall of Fame.
28
00:01:47.859 --> 00:01:50.799
He is a husband, a father, and, as evidenced in
29
00:01:50.819 --> 00:01:55.370
his reporting, a deeply compassionate human being. Keith, who has
30
00:01:55.409 --> 00:02:00.069
spent a lifetime interviewing others, is noticeably more comfortable telling
31
00:02:00.090 --> 00:02:03.609
the stories of other people. But here today, Keith and
32
00:02:03.689 --> 00:02:08.219
I discuss his prolific career, dateline, and the recent loss
33
00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:11.219
of his stepson, actor Matthew Perry.
34
00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:15.360
I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space.
35
00:02:15.379 --> 00:02:23.340
Making Space.
36
00:02:28.310 --> 00:02:31.270
Keith, first of all, I just want anyone who's listening
37
00:02:31.310 --> 00:02:31.750
to know this.
38
00:02:31.909 --> 00:02:34.569
I've known you for a long, long time since I
39
00:02:34.669 --> 00:02:37.289
first started working at Dateline.
40
00:02:37.310 --> 00:02:37.530
Yeah.
41
00:02:38.460 --> 00:02:40.460
I have to say you were one of the warmest
42
00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.960
and most kindest spirits because it can be scary stepping
43
00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:48.479
into this whole sort of network thing. And it struck me,
44
00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:50.259
like I have to say, when I started working at
45
00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:52.659
Dateline and met you, my heart just kind of rested
46
00:02:53.060 --> 00:02:53.500
because I was.
47
00:02:53.460 --> 00:02:56.039
Like, really nice, cool people work here.
48
00:02:56.650 --> 00:03:00.669
So tell me about you becoming a journalist because you
49
00:03:00.770 --> 00:03:03.650
have this, as I think one of the other producers described,
50
00:03:03.669 --> 00:03:07.719
you're like, You're like the Mr. Rogers of murder mysteries.
51
00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:11.580
You've got that vibe. So how did you decide this
52
00:03:11.620 --> 00:03:13.099
was the right field for you?
53
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.139
Oh, I didn't really. Mostly failed out of other fields.
54
00:03:17.860 --> 00:03:25.569
But to your first point, when I went to Dateline myself,
55
00:03:25.710 --> 00:03:28.789
it was the same kind of feeling because it is,
56
00:03:28.810 --> 00:03:33.509
I mean, what's that famous line that TV business is
57
00:03:33.550 --> 00:03:37.129
a cruel money trench where thieves and pimps run free
58
00:03:37.169 --> 00:03:41.560
and good men die like dogs. But Dateline wasn't like that.
59
00:03:41.849 --> 00:03:44.439
Dateline has always been a family of people who care
60
00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.659
about each other. And, you know, when you came along,
61
00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:48.740
everybody cared about you.
62
00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:49.080
And I.
63
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.379
Felt the same way myself. So that's, yeah, that's Dateline.
64
00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:01.930
But I, you know, I got into this business just because, well...
65
00:04:02.650 --> 00:04:05.509
Do you really care? A long, long, long time ago.
66
00:04:05.530 --> 00:04:07.310
Yes, I actually really want to know. I want to know.
67
00:04:07.430 --> 00:04:08.009
I want to know.
68
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A long time ago, I was busy doing things other
69
00:04:13.669 --> 00:04:15.669
than what I was supposed to be doing at college.
70
00:04:16.529 --> 00:04:22.350
I was in various political clubs and things, very important stuff,
71
00:04:22.949 --> 00:04:24.829
but I didn't pay any attention to my studies. And
72
00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:29.560
so my dean, the dean of the school I was in, said,
73
00:04:29.649 --> 00:04:31.420
why don't you go away for a couple of years
74
00:04:31.500 --> 00:04:34.420
and grow up, and maybe you should come back after that.
75
00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:39.060
I was insulted, of course, but I said, that's fine.
76
00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:42.939
I would. I didn't have any choice. And my dad
77
00:04:43.180 --> 00:04:48.629
was a preacher. I was let go from the school
78
00:04:48.709 --> 00:04:52.790
in about February. My dad was a preacher, and every spring,
79
00:04:53.230 --> 00:04:57.329
they would send young theology students out to the little
80
00:04:57.370 --> 00:05:00.910
small towns around Saskatchewan to fill in for ministers who
81
00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:03.980
were taking a month off. So you spend the whole
82
00:05:04.019 --> 00:05:07.279
summer doing that. And I had, you know, I wasn't
83
00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:10.660
in theology school, but, but I thought, well, I've, you know,
84
00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.079
I've been around my dad when he's preaching for my
85
00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:14.740
whole life. So I sort of know what to do.
86
00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.949
So I did that for the summer. And, and that's
87
00:05:19.990 --> 00:05:21.430
what made me realize I didn't want to be in
88
00:05:21.449 --> 00:05:25.250
the religion business. But when that was over, then it
89
00:05:25.290 --> 00:05:27.180
was really stuck. I didn't know what to do. And I,
90
00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:29.579
It was too soon to go back to school. So
91
00:05:30.180 --> 00:05:34.399
I was sitting in my grandfather's house one day watching television.
92
00:05:35.060 --> 00:05:38.639
And the early evening local news came on. And this
93
00:05:38.699 --> 00:05:43.060
guy started reading a story about something or other. And
94
00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:45.879
it was like a little revelation that came over me.
95
00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:49.189
And I said to myself, I can do better than that.
96
00:05:50.009 --> 00:05:54.149
And so I started applying around at local TV and
97
00:05:54.189 --> 00:05:58.040
radio stations. until somebody hired me in a little radio station.
98
00:05:58.740 --> 00:06:01.240
Was there something about, because you talked about your dad
99
00:06:01.300 --> 00:06:03.449
being a preacher, and I think that's interesting.
100
00:06:04.230 --> 00:06:06.009
And back up a second.
101
00:06:06.329 --> 00:06:08.670
When your dean said you're not to come back to school,
102
00:06:08.810 --> 00:06:10.750
did your parents, like, freak out?
103
00:06:11.310 --> 00:06:15.180
They weren't surprised. They were not surprised at all. They
104
00:06:15.209 --> 00:06:16.339
knew me pretty well, you know.
105
00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:21.639
So did your dad want you to go into business
106
00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:23.459
with him? Did he think that this was the right
107
00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:24.180
lane for you?
108
00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:28.040
No, I think he just thought, well, kid needs something
109
00:06:28.060 --> 00:06:30.959
to do and he actually might be okay at this.
110
00:06:31.019 --> 00:06:33.199
So why not give him a shot?
111
00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:38.689
Well, I read, I read Keith that you were actually, um,
112
00:06:39.449 --> 00:06:41.629
there was a funeral that was upcoming. A woman had
113
00:06:41.689 --> 00:06:44.750
lost her husband and you were, you were, yeah, you
114
00:06:44.769 --> 00:06:45.589
were important in that.
115
00:06:45.850 --> 00:06:50.620
Well, I wasn't, I, it was right after I started this. Um,
116
00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.500
and it was a old farmer, um, I thought he
117
00:06:55.540 --> 00:06:59.459
was extremely old at the time, a man about 80, died.
118
00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:03.240
And it was my job to kind of go over
119
00:07:03.259 --> 00:07:06.790
and make the arrangements for the funeral and to help
120
00:07:06.819 --> 00:07:13.370
conduct it. But also his wife, his widow, seemed to
121
00:07:13.430 --> 00:07:16.649
look at me as somebody who she could lean on
122
00:07:17.089 --> 00:07:19.910
and somebody she could look to for some wisdom about
123
00:07:19.970 --> 00:07:21.829
all of this or what to think about it all
124
00:07:21.850 --> 00:07:26.180
because she was devastated. I think that was really the
125
00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:28.680
moment when I thought this is, this is not work
126
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:35.709
for flakes like me. This needs somebody who's truly grown up. So, uh, yeah,
127
00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:36.730
it was quite an experience.
128
00:07:36.790 --> 00:07:38.529
That's scary. That's a lot for a kid.
129
00:07:38.670 --> 00:07:39.449
Yeah.
130
00:07:40.089 --> 00:07:43.209
So when you got started, Keith, in this business, did it,
131
00:07:43.350 --> 00:07:46.259
was it one of those instant, like, yeah, I got
132
00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:48.759
this or did it take a while to take?
133
00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:53.740
Well, that first job in a radio station was, um,
134
00:07:54.389 --> 00:08:00.589
at a place called CKOM in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. And the
135
00:08:01.029 --> 00:08:04.110
news director was a guy who'd been a neighbor of mine, actually,
136
00:08:04.149 --> 00:08:07.269
and I'd done errands for him for a while. But
137
00:08:08.540 --> 00:08:11.639
he was a curmudgeonly old guy. I would drive him
138
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.019
to work sometimes, and he would, I'm digressing a little,
139
00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:18.399
he would get into the car and he would have
140
00:08:18.500 --> 00:08:21.560
a shopping, just a little paper bag, a paper sack
141
00:08:21.579 --> 00:08:24.420
with him, like a lunch bag. And in the lunch bag,
142
00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.439
he was curious to sell what was in there, but
143
00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:30.689
there was a bag of glue, a little white glue bag,
144
00:08:31.670 --> 00:08:36.789
a bottle, and a bottle of an alcoholic beverage. And
145
00:08:36.830 --> 00:08:38.710
by the end of the day, they were generally both gone.
146
00:08:39.350 --> 00:08:41.029
But he would use the glue, and this was the
147
00:08:41.070 --> 00:08:43.350
interesting part to me. He would get a sheet of
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8x11 paper. He would take people's scripts. for the radio newscast.
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And he would cut them up into little bits and
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he'd rearrange them on the page and glue them onto
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the page. That's how he'd always done it as a
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newspaper editor. And so he decided this should work for radio,
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which was a good idea. And then you go into
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the radio, to the, to the booth to read this newscast.
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And it was all stuck together because of the glue,
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but that was a curious experience. But after a, A
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couple of months, and they gave me a regular gig
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to read the news on this radio station in the morning.
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And I slept in three days in a row. And
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so they fired me, and I had to find another job.
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What were you doing? What were you doing? Were you
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out the night before? What was happening?
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I just found it hard to wake up in the
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morning in those days. It was a late bloomer. I
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couldn't grow up.
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By the way, did you have those pipes back then,
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or is that something you grew into?
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Well, you get old, you know. It happens. Your voice
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will deepen as.
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You get older.
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Well, I have to say, I want to get— I love this.
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I love to know your backstory, because I didn't even
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know all this. I didn't know you're one of, one
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of five?
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Yes, one of five. Yeah. Yes, and they were all
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quite accomplished, except for their ne'er-do-well brother.
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So where did you fall in the pecking order?
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Second youngest. Yeah. And they are spread across Canada still.
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So as the second youngest, like I'm the middle kid,
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so I often feel like my sister got all the attention,
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good or bad. You know, she was always kind of
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the one they either came down on or the one
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who got all the attention.
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And my little brother was the boy they'd waited for
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their whole lives. So yay, yay, here comes the prince.
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And I was kind of the middle one who sort
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of got lost in the sauce a little bit.
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How did your childhood experience feel for you? Well, I was.
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I always felt like I got away with stuff the
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others didn't get away with. That somehow they made allowances
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for me. My parents did not have favorites. It wasn't
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like that. But I always, from the time I was
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a little kid, felt that kind of warmth of family
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around me. Like it was as if I was... favorite child.
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Probably we all felt that way to some degree. But,
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you know, I was the guy who, I was the
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kid who got away with stuff. There was a middle
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child in our family, one up from me, and she
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was the peacemaker, peacekeeper that wanted to do everything right.
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There was the youngest one who was a bit of a,
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she was annoying, but that's what youngest ones are supposed
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to be. The eldest was really a leader. The second
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eldest was studious and hardworking and Yeah. So the pattern
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is quite similar in most families, I find.
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I think so. I think so.
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What lessons, Keith, did your, what do you think the
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biggest lesson your dad taught you was?
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Well, I never really felt like I was living up
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to any of the lessons that he had, but there
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are different ways to be male, to be strong. To
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be a real man. And we see it expressed all
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the time in our society. There's the aggressive and abrasive
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kind of male who's probably a little insecure. And there's
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the softer spoken one who isn't sure he's right all
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the time. And that's who my dad was, who stressed,
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you know, compassion and kindness. I mean, I was a
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very lucky guy. It sounds a little Pollyanna, but... That's
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how I grew up. But there's a time when you're
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a boy growing up and you want your dad to
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be that really strong guy who can, you know, be
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the tough guy on the playground who can tell other
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dads off and, you know. And for a time I
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thought I was a little embarrassed that he wouldn't do that. But,
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you know, then you get to the point where you realize,
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you know, it's not the way to live. There's a
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better way.
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Yeah, that's an interesting observation.
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Right.
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You want your dad to be kind of the big man.
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Yeah.
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Do you know when he was proudest of you, Keith?
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I don't really. I can't name a time particularly, no. No.
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Was he proud of you?
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I'm pretty sure he was, yeah.
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Coming up, I share one of the many lessons that
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Keith taught me at Dateline. And we get a sneak
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peek at the upcoming Dateline original podcast, Murder in the
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Hollywood Hills.
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00:13:45.899 --> 00:13:46.440
Stay with us.
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You have such a way about you, and you played
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an important part in my life. One of the ways,
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I still remember this. I was working for Dateline and
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I felt like I was sort of behind in everything.
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I didn't have the interview skills. I didn't have all
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the things that you needed, the writing. And Neil Shapiro,
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our boss, called me and he said... but I was like,
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at least I have a voice. That's one decent thing.
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He goes, Hoda, come in here. I need to talk
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to you. I'm like, okay. He's like, it's about your voice.
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I'm like, God, what is wrong with that?
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He was like, listen, all your things sound the same,
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whether you're tiptoeing through the roses or whether you're on
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a freight train, you always sound the same.
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So he wrote down some words on.
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A piece of paper and he wrote down the words
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and then something amazing happened and he handed it to me.
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He goes, read that. And I was like, and then
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something amazing happened. He goes, punch it. I go, Then
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something amazing happened. He said, I didn't say loud. I said,
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punch it.
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And I said, Neil, I don't know what you're talking about, man.
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I feel lost here. I feel dumb. And he goes,
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give me the paperback. And he looked at it and
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he goes, and then something amazing happened. He goes, see
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what I did there? He goes, think about that. So
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I'm kind of walking out bewildered. And I walked to
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the fifth floor booth and you were voicing a whole
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Dateline hour. I stood outside of the booth and listened
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because that was when they had the speakers out there.
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And when you came out, I'll never forget this. I said,
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what are you doing in that booth? Because it was masterful.
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And you said, I'm reading my kid.
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A children's story.
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And then I was like, and then something happened.
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Amazing happened. It just hit me.
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And it changed the way I told stories from that
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day forward.
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I remember that day when you asked the question.
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I thought, oh, it's asking me. It's crazy. Please.
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But what this has turned into, it's so interesting because
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you are soft-spoken with a huge personality that people call
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you like, I was reading all these articles, the sexy
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dateline guy. You made everything, like it's become.
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Wild. So what happened?
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When did you transform or when did the world transform
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from whatever it was to this, this kind of like this?
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It's crazy.
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I don't know. I, you know, I don't.
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Know.
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Do you hate talking about yourself real quick?
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Quite a lot.
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Is this unbearable to you?
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I'm not a very good interview, I'm afraid. I'm sorry.
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No, but you know why?
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Because you're the kindest guy in the world and you
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hate talking about yourself, which is another great trait of yours.
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But you do have rock star status, whether you like
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it or not.
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It's a weird thing. I just don't get it at all. But,
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you know, it's, I mean, I don't mind. It's quite nice.
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People are very nice to me. What do people say?
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They come up on the street and they want their photographs.
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You know about that. But they're, you know, it's a,
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We're lucky people, you and I. We are.
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We are.
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What do you get asked the most on the street?
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Who do I get asked the most? Gee, that's a
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very good question. I don't think there's an answer to
335
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that question.
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I bet you they ask you.
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I know Savannah stopped you, and I know this because
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I call her phone because nobody calls her, and her
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voicemail is you.
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Yeah.
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She asked you to do her voicemail, and that's where
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it is.
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Mostly people ask about, they want to talk about stories, right?
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Do you remember the story you did about such and such?
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I have no clue what they're talking about because, for
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one thing, as you know, somebody else on the staff,
347
00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:20.569
Susan Nall, names the stories just before we go on television.
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00:19:20.589 --> 00:19:25.950
I never have a clue what they're called, often afterwards even. But, yeah,
349
00:19:25.990 --> 00:19:27.529
so that question is frequent.
350
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Now, did you ever, when you described, you were telling
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me early on about how you felt like you were
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not worthy of sitting with this person who had lost
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a loved one back in the day when you were,
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you know, kind of going in your father's lane we're,
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you know, in that spiritual world. Yet here you sit
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across from people all the time, Keith, who are handing
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00:19:52.609 --> 00:19:55.329
you with kid gloves a secret that maybe they've never
358
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told anyone before.
359
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Right.
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00:19:57.769 --> 00:20:01.619
And kind of trusting you with all of that. How
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do you receive that and how do you not carry
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00:20:05.779 --> 00:20:07.180
it all around with you?
363
00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:10.220
First of all, it's an amazing privilege to be given
364
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that opportunity. I still find it remarkable that you can
365
00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:22.329
be in a room with half a dozen other people,
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00:20:22.349 --> 00:20:26.049
a couple of television cameras, lights everywhere, and the knowledge
367
00:20:26.190 --> 00:20:29.400
that what you're saying to this guy sitting over there
368
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.200
will be seen by millions of people. And you're being
369
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asked questions that are the most intimate questions. You can
370
00:20:38.740 --> 00:20:40.839
be asked questions that even members of your family would
371
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:45.859
be hesitant to ask you. And they answer those questions. Um,
372
00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:50.809
and they do trust us with some deep and, uh,
373
00:20:52.690 --> 00:20:57.829
vulnerable kinds of thoughts. And so you have to be
374
00:20:57.869 --> 00:21:02.210
careful with that stuff. I see so much on in
375
00:21:02.269 --> 00:21:07.559
media where, uh, People are not careful with the stories
376
00:21:07.619 --> 00:21:11.049
of individuals who have gone through something difficult and bad.
377
00:21:11.329 --> 00:21:15.789
They use it for advantage, for, you know, clickbait, where
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00:21:17.289 --> 00:21:20.730
these are truly, truly, truly deep and difficult things to
379
00:21:20.769 --> 00:21:23.309
get through. And I don't think we want to make
380
00:21:23.349 --> 00:21:25.920
it any worse for anybody. But I come away from
381
00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:30.640
those conversations feeling it's a gift. They've given you something.
382
00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:37.480
Well, You've got a new season of the Dateline podcast.
383
00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:38.119
We sure do.
384
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:38.700
Yeah.
385
00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:42.480
These are all kind of, these are great stories, all
386
00:21:42.529 --> 00:21:47.390
of them. And you're unshackled when you're doing podcast storytelling.
387
00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:49.589
You don't have pictures to worry about. You don't have
388
00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:52.410
to hit certain commercial breaks. I mean, we still have some,
389
00:21:52.470 --> 00:21:54.269
but not as many. And you can go as long
390
00:21:54.309 --> 00:21:56.690
as you want. And you can just let your fingers
391
00:21:56.769 --> 00:22:00.910
fly and let your thoughts go. So I love doing them.
392
00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:06.960
And this latest one that's, is called Murder in the
393
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:14.900
Hollywood Hills. And it's a story that I think gets
394
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:19.480
at a real problem. And it also has, I'm trying
395
00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:20.880
to think of how much I can say without giving
396
00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:24.900
it away, but it has an ending that is in
397
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:31.250
some ways pretty satisfying, especially for, well, I don't know.
398
00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:33.990
That didn't tell you much at all, did it?
399
00:22:34.619 --> 00:22:35.950
It's a good one. I like this one. Well, but
400
00:22:35.970 --> 00:22:38.779
if you say something satisfying, it means it's real good.
401
00:22:38.819 --> 00:22:40.980
Well, I think it might be satisfying to you, and
402
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.680
I think it might be satisfying to a lot of women, especially,
403
00:22:46.220 --> 00:22:51.640
but men, too. It's about people fighting back.
404
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:53.710
Well, I love it.
405
00:22:53.940 --> 00:22:54.200
All right.
406
00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:56.619
Well, we always love a Dateline podcast. We have a
407
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.880
Dateline everything. I mean, the longest-running show, I think.
408
00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:02.859
After On Order or before. And we love it whenever
409
00:23:02.900 --> 00:23:03.819
you're on it, actually.
410
00:23:04.930 --> 00:23:05.910
Oh, thank you, Keith.
411
00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:11.430
Still ahead, Keith opens up about his relationship with his stepson,
412
00:23:11.569 --> 00:23:14.380
the late actor Matthew Perry, when we come back.
413
00:23:20.859 --> 00:23:25.500
This is an arrow. Mmm.
414
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And this is the sound of its minty bubbles. Conjuring
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melt in your mouth. Pure bubbly joy. Melt into the
416
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moment with Aero's delicious peppermint bubbles.
417
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Aero, feel the bubbles melt.
418
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You know, if you don't know what to do next,
419
00:23:54.490 --> 00:23:57.250
or if you don't know what level 3 you want
420
00:23:57.269 --> 00:24:00.339
to go to, you can go to TFI LeapCard.
421
00:24:00.819 --> 00:24:01.740
It's a good idea.
422
00:24:01.779 --> 00:24:02.480
No, it's simple.
423
00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:04.400
Go to Quagga Fáin Géidh in Irish.
424
00:24:04.420 --> 00:24:04.960
Then.
425
00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:06.059
Then you.
426
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:07.539
Won't have to worry about anything else.
427
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.319
You mean I have.
428
00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:11.859
To go to Quagga Fáin Géidh in Irish?
429
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:12.940
Yes, that's it.
430
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:14.880
Go to Quagga Fáin Géidh in Irish to go to
431
00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:15.400
TFI LeapCard.
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Go to TFI LeapCard.
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441
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Well, with that, I'll ask you about somebody near and
442
00:25:01.730 --> 00:25:04.589
dear to your heart. A lot of people don't even
443
00:25:04.650 --> 00:25:12.190
realize that you are Matthew Perry's stepfather. And I was
444
00:25:12.210 --> 00:25:15.259
thinking about you during that time, Keith, I saw one
445
00:25:15.339 --> 00:25:20.369
fleeting image of you there when everything was going on.
446
00:25:20.410 --> 00:25:24.069
And I, I wondered how you were doing. First of all,
447
00:25:24.329 --> 00:25:28.549
how are you and how is your wife after Matthew's passing?
448
00:25:30.349 --> 00:25:39.349
Well, it's a, it, as other people have told me
449
00:25:39.650 --> 00:25:44.539
hundreds of times, it doesn't go away. It, it, It's
450
00:25:44.579 --> 00:25:46.480
with you every day. It's with you all the time.
451
00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:54.720
And there's some new aspect of it that assaults your brain. And,
452
00:25:54.740 --> 00:25:59.119
you know, it's not easy. It's especially for his mom.
453
00:26:00.740 --> 00:26:06.130
And they were, I don't think I'm giving away too
454
00:26:06.150 --> 00:26:08.390
much if I say that toward the end of his life, they,
455
00:26:09.609 --> 00:26:13.150
they were, closer than I've seen them, had seen them
456
00:26:13.170 --> 00:26:19.660
for decades and texting each other constantly and him sharing
457
00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:23.140
things with her that most middle-aged men don't share with
458
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:30.289
their mothers. And then, so he was happy and he
459
00:26:30.349 --> 00:26:33.329
said so. And he hadn't said that for a long time.
460
00:26:34.730 --> 00:26:39.960
And so that gives, it's a source of comfort, but
461
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:43.420
also You know, he didn't get to have his third act,
462
00:26:43.619 --> 00:26:51.839
and that's not fair. And as he said himself, if
463
00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:56.099
I suddenly died, people would be shocked, but not too
464
00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:59.640
many people would be surprised. And he was right, I think.
465
00:27:03.529 --> 00:27:04.430
Did it surprise you?
466
00:27:04.450 --> 00:27:10.519
It was the news you never want to get. But
467
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:17.619
you think someday you might. So yes and no, I guess,
468
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:22.190
is the answer to that. Yeah.
469
00:27:23.029 --> 00:27:26.890
Do you still feel his presence? Do you still sense him?
470
00:27:27.809 --> 00:27:31.869
He was a larger-than-life person. You know, we do this,
471
00:27:32.109 --> 00:27:37.869
it's become this funny trope of Dateline, lit up a room, right,
472
00:27:37.970 --> 00:27:41.140
or the center of the room. Well, he was, and
473
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.660
he was always the center of attention everywhere he went.
474
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:49.039
That kind of personality. He was goofy, he was funny,
475
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:53.289
he was acerbic. But even if he didn't say a word,
476
00:27:53.309 --> 00:27:57.630
he was the center of attention. So, yes, I mean,
477
00:27:57.650 --> 00:28:03.390
it's gone, but you still feel the echo of it
478
00:28:03.450 --> 00:28:05.910
everywhere around here. Yeah.
479
00:28:07.609 --> 00:28:07.829
Yeah.
480
00:28:08.660 --> 00:28:12.200
It seemed by so many accounts he was on the mend.
481
00:28:12.289 --> 00:28:14.890
I mean, that's what it seemed like.
482
00:28:15.829 --> 00:28:18.410
As he put it himself in his book and in
483
00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:21.349
the talks that he had about his book, it is
484
00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:25.309
a disease and it's a very, very difficult one to beat.
485
00:28:28.390 --> 00:28:33.490
I don't think he ever would have said... He felt
486
00:28:33.529 --> 00:28:37.430
like he was beating it, but you never beat it.
487
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:42.170
and he knew that too.
488
00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:48.710
Keith, I'm really sorry.
489
00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:50.269
Yeah, well, thank you.
490
00:28:50.869 --> 00:28:51.609
I'm really sorry.
491
00:28:51.630 --> 00:28:53.210
Okay.
492
00:28:53.230 --> 00:28:56.799
I know that you and your wife have started a foundation.
493
00:28:56.819 --> 00:28:56.890
Yes.
494
00:28:56.900 --> 00:28:59.000
Tell me about that.
495
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:03.680
Yes, with the help of some very capable people. Yeah,
496
00:29:03.700 --> 00:29:07.259
the Matthew Perry Foundation, and it's a... The goal is
497
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.960
to do whatever can be done to help organizations that
498
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:18.579
are trying to identify the disease and how to deal
499
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:23.309
with the disease. And agencies and organizations that are specifically
500
00:29:24.069 --> 00:29:27.309
helping rescue people in difficult situations and trying to scoop
501
00:29:27.349 --> 00:29:30.309
them out of a vulnerable place and get them some help,
502
00:29:32.450 --> 00:29:35.519
a chance to beat it. To, you know, to beat
503
00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:40.849
it back. You're always beating it back, right? The disease
504
00:29:40.910 --> 00:29:43.289
is built in. It doesn't, I don't, I really don't
505
00:29:43.329 --> 00:29:45.730
think it ever goes away. It's in your brain and
506
00:29:46.730 --> 00:29:47.670
brain doesn't want to let it go.
507
00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:53.599
And is this foundation helping Suzanne sometimes when you have
508
00:29:53.619 --> 00:29:55.430
a place to, a place to go?
509
00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:57.940
I think it's going to. It takes a while to
510
00:29:57.980 --> 00:30:00.490
get these things rolling, as you know. So, yes, I
511
00:30:00.509 --> 00:30:05.170
think it definitely. And, you know, Matthew grew up in Canada,
512
00:30:05.529 --> 00:30:08.460
in Ottawa, and it's important to us. And I think
513
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:14.599
that that will be her, one of her big concerns
514
00:30:14.660 --> 00:30:17.460
is making sure that there is a good Canadian presence
515
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.410
for this because he is, you know, loved in Canada,
516
00:30:20.450 --> 00:30:23.930
as you can imagine. And so that'll be important.
517
00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:28.009
And just lastly on this subject, Keith, how would you
518
00:30:28.049 --> 00:30:30.930
describe him as a stepson, your relationship with him?
519
00:30:32.470 --> 00:30:38.140
Well, in a way, our personalities were, as they say,
520
00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:43.549
chalk and cheese. He was loud and out there and
521
00:30:43.630 --> 00:30:47.930
funny and aggressive. I'd take him to hockey games on
522
00:30:47.970 --> 00:30:50.650
Saturday mornings, and he would always score all the goals.
523
00:30:50.970 --> 00:30:52.519
And if he didn't score all the goals, he was
524
00:30:52.670 --> 00:30:55.339
so angry all the way home. He wouldn't talk to anybody.
525
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.700
He was really mad. You take him to a tennis match,
526
00:30:58.779 --> 00:31:01.440
and he'd usually win. He was a very good tennis player.
527
00:31:02.059 --> 00:31:03.539
But if he missed a shot, if he missed a
528
00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:06.170
shot a couple of times— his racket would be on
529
00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:08.450
the ground and he'd be stomping on it and trying
530
00:31:08.470 --> 00:31:11.109
to break it into pieces. He was so mad. And
531
00:31:11.710 --> 00:31:17.130
so he had that kind of very fiery personality. And,
532
00:31:18.730 --> 00:31:21.150
and mine is not like that, as you can imagine,
533
00:31:21.730 --> 00:31:26.390
but we got along fine. You know, we, I never
534
00:31:26.430 --> 00:31:30.059
tried to replace his dad because dads are dads, but
535
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:34.059
I was, I was there for him and he knew it. And, and,
536
00:31:34.789 --> 00:31:36.430
And we were close.
537
00:31:37.670 --> 00:31:40.009
So you were able to support him throughout, Keith, throughout
538
00:31:40.049 --> 00:31:40.650
all those years?
539
00:31:41.289 --> 00:31:48.380
As much as possible, yeah. As much as possible. That's
540
00:31:48.420 --> 00:31:53.319
a whirlwind of a life to get involved in a
541
00:31:53.640 --> 00:32:00.809
program that became as wildly successful as it was. To
542
00:32:00.849 --> 00:32:05.099
be fighting an addiction that was so virulent that went
543
00:32:05.150 --> 00:32:09.740
after him so hard. And he gave into it frequently, frequently.
544
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.440
He came to understand. He'd get to a certain point,
545
00:32:13.940 --> 00:32:16.509
and then he knew he had to go and get treatment.
546
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:23.109
And he'd accept help when he needed it. But as
547
00:32:23.130 --> 00:32:27.269
he said himself, it just kept happening. And it was
548
00:32:27.309 --> 00:32:29.230
a big bear. It was a tough thing to beat,
549
00:32:29.259 --> 00:32:31.380
a big, terrible thing.
550
00:32:36.049 --> 00:32:40.210
Well, Keith, just lastly, when you make space for yourself,
551
00:32:40.589 --> 00:32:43.670
when you get a day that's all for you, no commitments,
552
00:32:43.750 --> 00:32:47.880
no interviews, no nothing, how do you feel that day?
553
00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:55.940
Oh, I'm very happy. You know, I need to fuss around.
554
00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:57.420
I need to do a little bit of something here
555
00:32:57.460 --> 00:33:00.559
and there. So if I have absolutely nothing, I do...
556
00:33:04.630 --> 00:33:09.490
start looking around and maybe bothering people too much. But no,
557
00:33:09.529 --> 00:33:14.269
I'm just generally a happy person. I don't have a
558
00:33:14.329 --> 00:33:15.569
lot of drive, actually.
559
00:33:15.890 --> 00:33:23.259
I don't agree. I don't agree. I don't agree. Keith,
560
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:25.519
you are an awesome human being.
561
00:33:25.539 --> 00:33:26.119
You're wonderful.
562
00:33:26.140 --> 00:33:27.140
Thank you so much for sitting with me today.
563
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:28.089
It was an honor to talk to you.
564
00:33:28.099 --> 00:33:29.069
I really appreciate it.
565
00:33:29.299 --> 00:33:29.740
Take care.
566
00:33:30.339 --> 00:33:32.000
Thank you, sweetie. All right, I'll see you soon.
567
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:32.829
Bye. Bye.
568
00:33:40.460 --> 00:33:43.440
Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Alison Berger
569
00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:47.960
and Alexa Casavecchia. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Mastrilli.
570
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:52.500
Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Catherine Anderson. Original
571
00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:55.740
music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of
572
00:33:55.809 --> 00:33:59.930
audio production. Missy Dunlop-Persons is our executive producer. Libby Leist
573
00:34:00.009 --> 00:34:02.910
is the executive vice president of Today and Lifestyle.
574
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:16.460
This is an Aero.
575
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:19.809
Mmm.
576
00:34:20.610 --> 00:34:23.789
And this is the sound of its minty bubbles.
577
00:34:26.070 --> 00:34:34.400
Conjuring melt in your mouth, pure bubbly joy. Melt into
578
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.739
the moment with Aero's delicious peppermint bubbles.
579
00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:41.260
Aero, feel the bubbles melt.
