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You're listening to the Effectiveness Files, the IPA podcast that shines a light on the branding and advertising business from above.
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I'm Lawrence Green, Director of Effectiveness at the IPA, and I'm delighted to be joined today by Luke Bose, founder of Lucky Saints, and especially delighted to find ourselves ensconced here at Lucky Saints HQ above the pub of the same name, of which presumably you are the proprietor, Luke.
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Founder and landlord.
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So we're going to talk about the business, the brand, and the advertising, but I'd love to start with your story, Luke, if that's okay.
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I'm told you come from an advertising family, and I wonder if that has had any influence on Korea generally and specifically being able to build a brand around some Great Liquid.
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I think it's it definitely has a big impact.
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Like I um grew up watching UK, you know, UK's top 100 TV commercials of all time on a Saturday evening.
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Um so yeah, I had a family, my dad was in advertising, my mum worked in advertising, my sister, and so as I grew up, the only thing I was ever going to do was go and work in advertising, or at least something related to it.
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And I got used to spend all of the holidays, school holidays, university holidays being mostly being a runner at production companies.
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Um and and then I don't really know what happened.
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I left university and I I probably had something like a bit of a kind of like wobble or whatever, and I got some work experience in totally different industry um uh for three months in fund management of all things, and uh at the end of it they offered me a job and it on paper it was you know it was a really, really good job.
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Uh so I took it, and so I sort of fell into something that wasn't really ever kind of part of the plan, um, and ended up doing that in one form or another for about 10 years.
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Um, but I think it's really hard to be really good at something you're not passionate about.
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I always yeah, I always used to my I guess my job was looking at companies and kind of analyzing companies from the outside.
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And um I always felt like it looked more interesting being in a company than looking in from the outside.
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So um I was I was trying to sort of inch my way towards being in a company rather than on the outside and looking in, and that took a few different kind of a few different forms.
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That rather begs the question.
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Could it have been anything?
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What why why low alcohol bear?
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Because you you what you've just described is an entrepreneurial impulse, which we often misunderstand as being like Alan Schubert and the apprentice, but actually control is often what entrepreneurs want and influence over something.
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That was the biggest thing.
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My biggest like frustration was I I it just I hated having kind of my destiny always felt like it was in someone else's hands, because if you don't ultimately make a decision on something, and I just I didn't like that.
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Um and there were I mean originally I thought, oh well, I want to go and work in a startup.
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Um then I figured out I actually didn't have any skills or experiences to bring to a startup because everyone startups are always you and I know this so well now is you're always hiring to solve a very specific problem, and the idea is of having sort of generalist people that it just doesn't work.
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Um, and then I started thinking, well, if I was going to start my own business, what would it be?
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Um and a few ideas came and went, but the one I could never shake off was this idea of reinventing the sort of most hated, most maligned category in beer.
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Um and it just there was just a kind of an emotional pull towards it.
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Um I think because it was in it's kind of hard to think about it now, but if you go back to 2016 when sort of the idea first came about, there was Bex Blue, was the clear market leader by an absolute 55% market share, and then there was a beer called Bavaria Zero, and that was that was about it.
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Um so it was uh and it was this cascade, and you felt like you needed to apologise if you ordered a beer, um, and it's kind of it's amazing to see how far the the world has come since then, um but so that was the kind of the romantic kind of emotional bit that I got attached to.
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It was like, would it I wonder if it'd be possible to like build a brand that would make people feel positive about choosing to drink an alcohol-free beer?
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So you just framed it as building a brand, which is quite interesting because often people will start with a product, and obviously we're about to talk about that, and obviously you that is where the the business journey starts, um, in your case with the liquid, but you were always thinking about it as a brand rather than just a business or a product?
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Yes, but I think product and everything is part of the brand.
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So if I think we are you know the brand is a function of the beer that we brew and the quality of the beer that we brew, firstly, secondly, the brand identity and the brand world that we kind of exist in, and third, our team and the culture that we've built around team, because you know that's what gives us kind of capacity to grow.
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Um, so all of all of those things make up the brand, and every you know, we're sitting above the pub, so everyone, every every person who walks through the front door of the pub, whether they're ordering a pint of Guinness or a pint of Lucky Saint or a pint of Camden Hells or whatever it is, they're still getting a Lucky Saint brand experience.
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So the hospitality that they receive.
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Every interaction that one of our sales team have with a customer is a brand experience for you know the person on the other end.
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So everything is part of our brand.
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Those uh those Saturday nights were well spent, Luke.
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That's a brilliant description of a true a true brand rather than you know one that gets pasted on.
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And um, I suspect part of the problem with the category was that that there just wasn't one, um, or there was a beer minus version of uh of another brand.
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Um tell me tell me about the product because that you know you you have great momentum now, but of course, when you start you have no momentum, um, and presumably there were plenty of hurdles as well as the odd helper in those first couple of years where you're trying to turn a dream into reality.
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Yeah, so I think like going back, I always thought all this here's this amazing proposition for the right occasion for the right person, you know, what could be better about this proposition of alcohol-free beer?
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But in reality, I wasn't even even a consumer of it.
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Um, and I boiled it down to two things.
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There was this this brand part, there wasn't a brand that was gonna make me feel positive and feel aspirational, but there also wasn't a beer in a bottle that was good enough to bring me in, and that was the bit I sort of always knew I was like, it was it's pointless having a brand unless there's a good enough beer.
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So that was what I spent from 2016 to 2018 uh working on and a little bit naively.
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I when I I did I literally didn't even know how you brewed beer.
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I was like, I was on Google, like, how do you brew beer?
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How do you brew alcohol-free beer?
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Like, you know, it was Google's an incredible resource.
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Um, but ended up spending two years working with six different breweries in three different countries, trialed every process there is for brewing alcohol-free beer.
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Um trial ended up around like looking at different styles, different ingredients, like the full the full kind of the full spectrum.
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Um, but doing it all without uh effectively just by reaching out to breweries and saying, look, here's what I'd love to do.
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Um can you help me?
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Uh so there wasn't uh so it was it ebbed and flowed a lot, depending on whether or not I'd managed to get someone in a brewery somewhere in Europe, whether that was the UK or Belgium or Germany, to uh get excited about it and be willing to put some of their kind of resource and time behind figuring it out.
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Um, so yeah, as I said, it sort of it ebbed and flowed, and you kind of you get a new relationship and it's and it all it's all exciting, and then you know, you two or three brews later and no good results, and uh there was a sort of inevitability about the phone call that would come from the owner or CEO or whoever it was who I'd sort of built a relationship with to say, look, Luke, I'm sorry, but my brewers are much more comfortable brewing, you know, messing around with five, six, seven, eight percent IPAs than they are with your alcohol-free beer project.
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Um, so I'm sorry, but it's not gonna work, and then you said duly move on to the next one.
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Um, but try and try and learn all the you know, try and take some learnings out of it, out of uh everything that you do, and yeah, ultimately, ultimately found this brewery in Germany who uh I knew brewed amazing lager in their own right, uh, but also had the technology to be able to brew alcohol-free beer.
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Um and they yeah, managed to managed to convince them uh that they should invest some of their time in it and yeah, ultimately, ultimately got to Lucky Saint.
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So tell me about so so that that are you working on the brand in parallel or is it sequential?
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Is it product?
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It was sort of sequential, so there were there was there was overlap, but there was only overlap once I had a a degree of confidence that we were going to be able to get to a product, and that didn't that really that didn't come until uh towards the end of 2017.
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So tell me about those early brand discussions then.
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So you you you you said up front that you were trying to build a brand in this space.
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So how how did who who was involved and what were the conversations you had, and how did you end up with Lucky Sound?
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Um so there's two there's sort of there were two phases to it because I was and I this is what you sort of learn when you you go on a journey like this, is you're completely naive to at like absolutely everything.
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Um so I worked with um a really good friend who's a brand strategist uh and then kind of pieced together various kind of other bits of support uh from a kind of design perspective and and copywriting perspective and that kind of thing, and um built a brand called Not Another Beer Co.
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Um and I was it it all of the fun so it it was all built on really good insight, but I made a like a poor decision around the name, and the name ended up leading down through like a tone of voice, um, and an identity that just wasn't it what it wasn't right, but it's all started from this name.
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But when you don't know, I remember you don't when you've not done it before, you don't know what it feels like when it is right.
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So you don't know, or maybe you know you're looking at things like is it right, is it wrong?
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But you just don't know.
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So you sort of you keep kind of going through the process, and you have to I always feel like you you've always the wheels you have to keep the wheels turning, whatever you can't just sort of stop and do nothing.
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So you keep the wheels turning.
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Um and then in 2018, I'd sort of finished my job and committed that the the beer was ready.
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Um and I went out and I actually I sent the presentation that I had to a guy called uh Ben Bilbo, who uh was the founder and he was running Kamarama at the time.
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And I actually didn't know Ben, but I figured he would kind I figured he would recognise my name and he would maybe read the email.
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And so I sent this deck, and it was quite a kind of it was quite a uh uh provocative deck in that the first the opening slide on it was in font size 72, was not Bex Blue, not a range extension, not apologizing, not just another beer.
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Um so it was quite you know, you slam your fist on the table, and it was it was it was kind of like yeah, quite provocative in that way.
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And Ben actually really kind of he just picked up the phone and and he said hi Luke, and he he was like, Look, I you know, I love I love the idea of building a brand in a category that has no brands.
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Um and I can totally see the the need for the product and the proposition.
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He said, How how how far down the naming and branding route are you?
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Uh, which was a sort of ominous question.
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I said, Well, you know, it's kind of ready to hit print.
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And he said, I think you should start again.
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Um, and he said, What you've done is you've I think you've started with a name that's led you down a creative uh kind of direction.
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There's a couple of things.
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One, by calling it not another beer co, you are sort of almost immediately defining yourself as what you're not rather than what you are, and he said it's you know it is quite a noisy and you know way to kind of launch a brand, but the risk that you run is that um in the medium term it becomes harder and harder to think of new ways to define yourself as different, and given that there's no one, there are no brands in this category at this point, why not go after the propositional side of the category and celebrate everything that you are, and that territory will be much richer and much longer lasting.
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And when he articulated that in that way, I just you know, I was on a call just sort of metaphorically like rip rip ripping up and saying, right, well, we need to start again.
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Um, so I'd actually coincidentally, I'd met uh John O.
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Holt, who runs other way, um and so and I I'd met him the week before, uh and so I picked the phone back up to him and I said, So you know what we we were talking about, kind of you know, getting a bit of a plan of of working on some launch ideas and stuff like this.
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Can we actually just just start at the beginning?
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Uh like new name, new brand identity, all of the same stri like all of the same strategy that was going to go into it, but it was just we need to we just started with like we'd made one kind of wrong move.
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So you so you start from scratch, um, and what is what does that look like?
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How how do we how do we now have this great great product sitting in front of us?
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Um I I guess it was a bit like you know, a sort of classic design process.
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They uh we went back through all of the strategy.
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Um it was a blank sheet of paper, and it was like naming and design routes, and they came back with four routes and said, Please don't pick your favourite bits from each one, they have like you know, they're sort of distinct ideas.
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Um came back and said, Well, I really like really like that bit of the first one and that bit of the second one, and if we just have a touch of that out of the fourth one, Tom Moore, who's the designer who who worked worked on it, was like just oh like amazing.
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Um and kept, and there was some there were some there were some decisions in there that there was a decision around the big funny enough, the big decision actually that was probably the most contentious was there were two kinds of font.
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There was a sort of slightly more traditional Bavarian influenced font, and then there was the much more kind of modern lucky saint font as it is today, and I'm I much preferred this kind of like this slight kind of nod to the tradition of Bavarian fonts, um, and they totally overruled me.
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Um they just didn't like no, you've got it, you you've got it wrong, um, which was great.
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Well, good good for you having uh the strength of relationship to trust in that challenge and to and in on that occasion to to give into it, I suppose.
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Um so the so the name, I'm I'm fascinated by the name because it's a great name for a pub, uh I have to say, um, and perhaps that's why it's a great name for a beer, but how how did you get to the name?
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Um well the first so the first route that they um did was called Saint, and thought that's quite an it's it was quite an interesting name because there's loads of um uh brewing and religion have sort of intertwined as you go back through, you know, lots of monks have been brewers, and and so by kind of that saint name automatically feels like it's been around for it, has a sort of sense of like permanence about it, I think, because of that link, that historical link between the two.
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Um but then we couldn't get the trademark on it.
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I remember very clearly I was on the phone to John O, walking around outside Westfield shopping centre, um, kind of at my wit's end, and out of nowhere, he just said, Well, what about Lucky Saint?
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And in an instant, it was it was like that's it, we're done.
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And the saint, apart from the religious kind of heritage bit, there is obviously this kind of nod to virtuousness, and we can all feel we can all feel a little bit uh saintly if we're not drinking, and then the lucky part for me has always had this there's a podcast series called How I Built This, which is uh interviews or and st um yeah, interviews with founders of some of the most like amazing businesses and brands that um from James Dyson to the founders of Airbnb and like all of this stuff, but the last they're they're so engaging, and the last question that Guy Raz, the interviewer, always asked them is how much of your success do you put down to skill and judgment, and how much do you put down to luck?
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And and the response is nearly always it's like the response is nearly always the same.
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It's a kind of uh very humble, right place, right time, lucky breaks, serendipitous meetings.
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And so the lucky part of our name is always kind of an ode to the luck that I think you need to make these things work.
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So um you've talked um a lot about serendipity, but this also looks like a brand that's been built in a very disciplined and deliberate way rather than just being a consequence of some lucky bouncers.
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Um certainly from an advertising point of view, it looks like a very deliberate playbook in terms of look, feel, consistency, familiar channels.
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So if you could tell me more about that.
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Um yeah, there's I guess there's sort of there's lots, there's lots in there.
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So there's I think things that I guess it started out always wanting to build um something that would be defining.
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That was you know, our ambition is to build the world's defining alcohol-free brand.
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Um, and so we've always everything that we've done, I've always sort of had the intention of I'd rather do less things and do them really, really well than sort of trying to try to do everything and and spread ourselves too thin.
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So that starts with product and the quality of the beer that we brew.
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Um, for five years we had it, we were a single product in a single market and like very, very disciplined around.
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Building in the right channels in the right venues in the right channels.
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Um, there's a from a from a brand perspective, we got, I mean, uh the brand visually, like when I say the brand, the kind of brand identity in terms of packaging and all that is totally unchanged since we launched.
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Um, and I do I ask Tom more about once a year, I like put the bottle in front of him.
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I'm like, Tom, do you want to change anything?
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Uh and and he has a bit of a look at it and he says, No, no, we're all good.
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Um, but it hasn't uh we've then tried lots of things.
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I think kind of going from a the having a visual packaging and stuff is one thing, but then building that out actually took quite a lot of time, and we've had uh we had a lot of goes at trying to figure out what what does the brand look like around because I think the if I think what you're referring to is that the we've got our out-of-home media and you know the ads and stuff that we we run um have this kind of distinctive style to them, which is an overall kind of brand aesthetic, but we didn't it was uh it didn't start off, it actually didn't start off looking like that at all.
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Um so uh we've been on a bit of a journey with that, um, and it wasn't until three years ago that we pieced together kind of three things, which was one was we used the the nun that we shot with Rankin, which is a whole story in its own right, but we did that in 2019, and then we ended up taking one of those images that he took, which was a uh uh it was a there was a there was a sort of dark version of her wearing black, and then there was a lighter version of her wearing white, and we took that um colour palette and used it literally to sort of create like the whole brand world.
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So it's this and then we took big bold blue font on this kind of putty background, and then this sort of religious referenced imagery, which starts with the nun, but then also the all the shots of the hands that we use are kind of are all rooted in kind of religious shot shots of and kind of religious iconography around how they hold their hands.
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Um but it took it took us two or three years to sort of get to that, and then we brought in the tone of voice, which is kind of like uh just uh a wry kind of nod to some religious tone of voice that's used hopefully hopefully in a kind of uh in a measured way.
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Um and once we got and that all started to work together about three years ago, we've then been able to be really consistent with it.
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But there were some iterations of things that we tried before that that um were you know just never they sort of never quite worked, but we've always always invested in doing it, and if it didn't work, that was fine.
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And um think of uh yeah, the odd project that you're you know was a load of work and a big investment, and it it didn't work.
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Um yeah.
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Am I right in presuming?
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I I think so, because I think it was on the receiving end of some of it.
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Presumably your your advertising journey starts with search and social, is that right?
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And then and you you now find your way to uh I think genuinely iconic outdoor.
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Are you were there different decisions to make along the way?
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Did you have to persuade investors uh in different ways at different points to to support the brand?
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I think the investment that I guess that advertising, so yes to search and social almost before that.
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Um it was kind of the first thing was investment in creative.
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So we were investing in creative when we hadn't no money for media.
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Um which was it started funny enough.
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Um Ben very kindly just after we launched, said, look, you should come into Karma Armour and we'll we'll do do some work with, we'll put a team together and we'll do an afternoon workshop on some ideas of how the brand might come to life in reality.
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And the thing that came out of that was an idea to shoot photography of an unexpected lucky saint, and the idea that rose to the top with this was this kind of arresting image of a nun drinking a beer, um, and but with no media budget, or really no no budget at all.
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We um there I say we they came up with an idea was let's shoot this image, and if we could get someone interesting to shoot the image, maybe the story will be who's shot it, rather than you know putting it everywhere.
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And uh we sent it in, sent the brief into Rankin's office, and amazingly he said he said, sure, I'll do it, I'll do it, and I'm free next Thursday.
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Um, and so one week later we were in his studio um having piece together at uh you know nuns and outfits and all of that stuff.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:19.599
Um so we invested in that first, um, and actually, you know, it's been the kind of like a defining piece of work that actually the only place it went, we posted it on some fly posters around Shoreditch, and that was really as that was kind of as far as the campaign went, but it got a little bit of press pickup, um, and and it's yeah, as I say, it's a now it sits at the very kind of top of of the brand.
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:25.359
Um so we've we've done that.
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:39.200
I think the other thing before we get into kind of traditional media and buying um in traditional media space, distribution has been the biggest driver of awareness.
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:51.440
Like um being listed on menus in the most influential on-trade accounts in the UK is our awareness driver.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:58.400
Um what it says about your brand when you're listed in a Michelin star restaurant is only good.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:05.519
Um so uh that's been that's been the biggest thing.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:16.000
So really where all of our investment you know has gone in in the first instance was after growing distribution in the right places and in the right channels.
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:35.119
Um we've then from a media perspective, we've had quite a traditional kind of media journey in a sense because we've uh done London Underground, you know, we've like traditional out-of-home media.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:54.880
Um the difference I think has been trying to have creative in those spaces that stands out because in reality our budgets are still tiny, um, particularly compared to the the large multinational brewers who have uh yeah live operate in a different world to us.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:04.799
Um but on really small budgets, we've had our you know our awareness over the last 18 months in London's gone from 30% to 40% to 50%.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:58.799
Um so we've had you know amazing results actually of uh just a kind of uh disciplined like media buy and and really strong creative um and and always trying to do and then from a creative perspective prioritizing uh the distinctiveness of of the creative over trying to do what traditional beer brands which will do, which is show you a a pint of beer, a refreshing pint of beer with beads of water falling down, you know, dripping down the side of the glass and people smiling and laughing in the background, all these like very traditional kind of what you expect to see from beer advertising.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:31.440
If we we won't cut through if we do all of those same things, so you won't find uh famous last words, but you won't, you know, you won't find us doing those kind of like classic looking beer things because it's it's just we won't we we won't be distinctive if we do that and uh you know we need to be ten times more effective with the money that we've got than a large multinational will be because otherwise we'll never you know we won't we won't catch them.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.519
And what so that magic word, uh effective.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:37.920
What what do you mean by that?
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:51.839
Do you mean effective in real time across the duration of a campaign, sales uplift, awareness uplift, or does effective mean to you the thing you talked about earlier about being the defining brand?
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:55.119
Is it is it a is it a more long-term price?
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:57.519
It's definitely a long-term price.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.519
I don't it's really hard, it's really hard, particularly at our scale.
00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:10.400
You know, we're still small, really hard to measure um the kind of immediate effect of a of a campaign.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:29.599
Um so and and when we run there are so many inputs, so also the advertising is only one part of the campaign because we'll be doing everything from activations in pubs and restaurants, activation in store, so all of that ladders up, plus promotional campaigns.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:39.839
So it'd be very difficult to kind of pull that, identify what was the actual uplift from the advertising piece of that.
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:56.960
So it's very much about showing yeah, I guess showing people creative and delivering on a brand that is gonna be this kind of defining alcohol-free brand.
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:08.480
That's the and it's a very much a long-term thing, and that's a cumulatively adding up all of the touch points that a consumer sees over the life cycle.
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:13.279
They all they need to be cumulatively exceptional.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:31.279
I'm not saying everything that we do is exceptional, um uh it certainly isn't, but we need to aspire to do that, and overall the kind of the experience that a consumer sees needs needs to be that.
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:44.480
I I love that, and certainly um the brands and businesses that typically win our awards are exactly that, they're cumulatively exceptional in a world that increasingly measures short because we can.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:54.559
I think there is such a thing as founder's syndrome, where a founder is uh pathologically incapable of letting go of their business.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:01.279
And um your passion for branding and advertising is evident as I talked to you, but also in the outputs that you've created.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:09.360
So are you are you still really the brand manager, I guess, or or do you manage to step uh step back from the the furnace?
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:23.199
We've got we've now got an amazing team, and I think they'd say that I'm now much better at at stepping stepping out of it.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:32.800
So um and I because I I also I can't I can't be in the I literally can't be in the detail of all all of these things.
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:56.239
Um so I'd like to think I mean I conceptually like the idea of uh setting direction, it's the sort of first five percent and the last five percent, so setting direction at the beginning, um, and then also have being able to input into uh final the kind of the final outputs.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:14.320
Um but yeah, our you know Kertu and Emily and and Meg and the rest of the of the of the marketing team now have uh they've got such a good instinct on what is and isn't right for us as a brand.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:21.360
But I that I think is testament to your team, but it it also sounds very much like a brand-led business.
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:33.840
The um the distinction uh I think with Ronan Dunn when he used to run O2 made was this isn't a business operating a brand, it's a brand directing a business.
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:36.639
And I thought that was quite a profound thing.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:44.159
If you if you if you follow what the brand is telling you to do rather than what the new joiner is telling you to do, you'll typically end up in a better place.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:53.039
I've never really I mean I've never really thought about it, but I instinctively I think I think you're right, like we don't we do think brand first.
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:56.639
That is, you know, at the end of the day, that's uh all we are.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:01.760
And when you think about you know the brand is those three things I always come back to.
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:13.039
It's like the the beer and the quality of the beer, the kind of identity and visually, orally the way that we show up, and then the team, the culture.
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:16.480
That that's what that's all Lucky Saint is.
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:21.920
Um, so we sort of we have to keep fostering and nurturing all of those three things.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.559
And tell me a little bit about your investors.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:35.519
So they obviously understand that, and they obviously have been supportive of the cumulatively exceptional brand path you're on rather than just short-term wins.
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:38.079
Yeah, very much so.
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:49.920
I mean because we'd have, I mean, look, we've got so we have we've raised a certain amount of money uh to build the business.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:56.079
Um we've raised money from some really interesting people to have involved in the business as well.
00:36:56.239 --> 00:37:04.320
So lots of um individuals, a good number of whom have come from the advertising world.
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:33.679
Um so Ben, who obviously mentioned um James Murphy and David Golding, um, and and then the other really significant uh moment was when Jamjar, which is the investment fund started by the three innocent founders, um, so they joined us on the journey at the back end of 2020.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:39.599
Um, and Rich Reed is absolutely amazing on this stuff.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:58.000
Um, so we've had lots of people around the table who've been really engaged in what we're doing, and actually the the big thing that happened after after having about two years or so after launch, so around it was actually just it was around early 2021.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:41.039
We sort of knew there were lots of things that were working, but we'd never codified or articulated what what what they were, we didn't have values as a business, we hadn't set ambition, we hadn't set vision and purpose and all this stuff, and that was fine because we were a team of 15, 20 people, um, and instinctively it it was you know, you there were enough touch points between us all to be able to kind of instinctively know about this stuff, but we set out to kind of articulate and codify um it started with kind of mission and purpose and values were the two things we wanted to get out of it.
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:57.599
Um, and we we had 10 questions that we sent round to anyone who knew us well, clearly everyone internally, which was really important, but then also um kind of key investors who we thought would have a really good point of view on this stuff.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:07.360
Um, and what came it was the most brilliant like piece of work, the stuff we got back was absolutely amazing.
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:14.559
Um, and it uh it came out, so we got our our values out of that.
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:20.000
We also got a set of mantras because um there was basically two there was too much.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:25.039
So we have a set of values that we live by, and then a set of mantras that we work by.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.840
So our our values are be generous, stay humble, and get lucky.
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:46.079
Um, and then we have our mantras that we work by, which are do the right thing well, um, which is a uh um stolen and adapted with pride from innocent.
00:39:47.119 --> 00:40:17.840
Um the next one is like find the devil in the detail, which is kind of all around um yeah, just making sure that the stuff that we do, particularly as a brand, is like is just right and has that lucky saint touch to it, um, and then make sustainability second nature, which is all about ensuring that we build a business that was that is here for 10, 20, 50, 100 years to come, and and that influences all our decision making.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:52.320
Um, and then we got one other thing that's been uh uh we didn't where know where to put it, and it's but it's kind of so we call it our call to arms, which is break rules honor traditions, um which was uh Rich Reed was uh the he coined it really well, and he said, look, the lucky saint works when there's a there's this tension in like what you do, and it starts actually with alcohol-free beer, is in itself is a dichotomy, right?
00:40:52.400 --> 00:41:01.119
There's this tension in in it, then you come down and the lucky saint name lucky saint are two words, lucky and saint are two words that don't really belong together.
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:08.000
There's this kind of tension in them, the nun holding the beer again, all these things.
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:19.920
Uh, but then this idea of unknowing where we should break rules as a challenger brand, and typically challenger brands are really good at breaking all of the rules.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:26.079
We think it's as important to honour the tradition, honour some traditions and some category conventions.
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:37.280
Um I always think of like actually the semiotics of the beer and the brown bottle and the traditional crown cap.
00:41:37.760 --> 00:42:01.199
So lot lots of the things are very beery about about the brand, but then the creative is neither it's neither traditional beer nor craft beer, it's sort of it it has its kind of has its own own style to it, and then you know, things like the category conventions about how we build and the places that we build distribution in.
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:09.039
Um actually it's been really important to build in the right accounts with quite a kind of traditional on-trade build.
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:32.000
So anyway, that piece of work we ended up with a sort of a manifesto and values and mantras, and that's uh what's I think allowed us then, as we've grown as a business, we've gone from 20 people to 60 people, um having that all codified as a you know what our brand stands for.
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:37.920
Um and we obviously then have brand guidelines and and all those sorts of things as well.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:53.360
So that's then kind of allowed us to stay consistent and means that hopefully uh yeah, I don't I'm I'm not in everyone's um everyone's kind of homework all of the time.
00:42:54.559 --> 00:43:06.079
I think uh almost all of our members will know your brand because you have done such a good job uh with such consistent identity, consistent tone of voice.
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:09.360
I suspect they've got no idea about the scale of the business today.
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:12.079
So could you just tell me a little bit about how how you're doing now?
00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:14.400
We've talked about the sort of founding stories.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:16.480
Where are you in 2024?
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:23.760
So 2024, we are we're the UK's number one dedicated alcohol-free beer brand.
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:28.400
We're listed in 10,000 on-trade accounts.
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:40.639
Uh we're listed across all of the well, actually, those 10,000 on-trade accounts includes a thousand draft taps and 81 Michelin star restaurants.
00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:45.119
They don't sell as much beer as the draft taps, but they are just as important.
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:51.920
Um then we're listed across retail, um, all the major supermarkets.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:58.559
Um, we've been a, yeah, I guess that I mentioned earlier single product, single market brand for five years.
00:43:58.719 --> 00:43:59.760
Then at the end of last year, we lost.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:14.320
Launched our hazy IPA, and then we've also launched Ireland, and so we're just sort of beginning to kind of explore what international looks like for Lucky Saint.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:18.159
So that's kind of I guess where we are on the journey.
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:28.239
So, and we're I always think we sit between, you know, we're not as big as Heineken Zero or Guinness Zero.
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:42.000
And I don't know whether we ever will be, but the ambition is to be uh the defining brand, and that that means being more synonymous with the category than anyone else.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:54.159
So, in the same way that Fever Tree is synonymous with tonic water and Tesla is synonymous with electric cars, we want Lucky Saint to be the barcall for alcohol free.
00:44:54.639 --> 00:45:10.159
I'd like to just lastly scratch around um uh the area of sustainability because you mention it, and because you are a proud B Corp, is that important to you personally or to team or to consumer?
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:12.719
How do how does that play through your brand?
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.679
Um, so important to all three.
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:47.440
Um I think it starts if you go back to this um this mantra, which is you know, as a business we need to make sustainability second nature, and that's about building a business which will stand the test of time, and that's so environmental decisions are part of that, but also uh investing in brand and long-term investment decisions are are equally important.
00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:54.079
Um, so we went on, yeah, we started the B Corp journey.
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:58.000
I'm I'm gonna get my idea probably three years ago.
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:14.320
Um, we view B Corp as an accreditation and a reflection of the things that we do as a business rather than uh doing all doing all of these things in order that we can become a B Corp, if you see what I mean.
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:16.559
I think it's an important distinction.
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:34.639
Um and it's increasingly uh so it's a huge draw for the team members uh and people actively joining the business because of uh the things that that we do and the things that we stand for.
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:41.760
Um and that's around that's as much around like people and inclusivity as it is around environmental decisions as well.
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:48.559
Um and then uh it's becoming increasingly important for consumers as well.
00:46:48.960 --> 00:47:14.000
So, but it all for me this is it kind of all ladders back to this idea of you know what sustainable really means is like you know how how can we be around for a long time, and that means that we need to be able to, you know, consumers need to love us, our team need to love working here, um, we need to do the right thing by the planet that we live on because otherwise there's no point being here.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:17.920
There won't be a planet to you know to protect.
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:21.920
So I guess that's that's the viewpoint of it.
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:31.760
And then as always, we're it is a it's a journey and one that's it's never it's ne it'll never it'll never be complete.
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:45.599
There will always be room for improvement, and we start from a you know we we start from a place of yes, we're a B Corp, but we know there's lots more that we can and would like to do.
00:47:45.920 --> 00:48:01.280
Um and that you have to roadmap that out, and it's important from a you know, in reality as a small business, actually our footprint, relatively speaking, just because we're a small business, is quite small.
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:11.039
But if we can set ourselves up in such a way that our footprint, our environmental footprint will be smaller as we grow, then that's that's also as important.
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:15.599
Not sure I've articulated that very well, but no, I th that made perfect sense.
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:16.800
That's great.
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:18.719
Um final question.
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:22.880
So you you've built this great brand, I think it was brand of the year at the Marketing Society.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:23.920
Uh we did.
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:27.519
You've built this great business, you've built out a great team.
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:29.840
What keeps you awake at night?
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:31.440
What's what do you worry about?
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:33.920
I don't know, I sleep quite well.
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:46.000
I I'd say it's less about I don't know, I always think it's it's less about challenges and more around opportunities.
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:55.920
And um we've still got you know a huge the category in this country is still actually it's still embryonic.
00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:05.679
There's only 2% of beer sales in this country are alcohol free, um, and that that number is much higher across the rest of Europe.
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:11.440
So um there's still you know loads for us to do.
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:28.239
Um and then we've just launched IPA, so really excited about that, and it's launched literally last week in the on-trade, so it's been in retail so far this year, and it's now we've now just launched in the on-trade in bottle.
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:47.599
Um, so exciting, exciting piece uh of growing that, and then we're beginning to think about what Lucky Saint might look like in a kind of global context, and coming back to this ambition to build the world, the world's defining alcohol-free brand.
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:57.679
Um, we need to take what we've built in the UK and understand what it would look like internationally and and how we do that.
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:05.440
That sounds like a great place to end because what you've just described is restlessness rather than sleeplessness.
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:09.440
Um so uh congratulations on what you've done so far.
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:15.599
Good luck for the future, and thank you so much for spending time with us today telling us your story.
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:20.559
You've been listening to the effectiveness files with me, Lawrence Green.
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:26.480
Check out the IPA website or wherever you get your podcasts for more Tales from the C Suite.
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:24.480
You're listening to the Effectiveness Files, the IPA podcast that shines a light on the branding and advertising business from above.
00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:44.399
I'm Lawrence Green, Director of Effectiveness at the IPA, and I'm delighted to be joined today by Luke Bose, founder of Lucky Saints, and especially delighted to find ourselves ensconced here at Lucky Saints HQ above the pub of the same name, of which presumably you are the proprietor, Luke.
00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:45.679
Founder and landlord.
00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:54.159
So we're going to talk about the business, the brand, and the advertising, but I'd love to start with your story, Luke, if that's okay.
00:00:54.560 --> 00:01:06.079
I'm told you come from an advertising family, and I wonder if that has had any influence on Korea generally and specifically being able to build a brand around some Great Liquid.
00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:09.200
I think it's it definitely has a big impact.
00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:20.959
Like I um grew up watching UK, you know, UK's top 100 TV commercials of all time on a Saturday evening.
00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:34.079
Um so yeah, I had a family, my dad was in advertising, my mum worked in advertising, my sister, and so as I grew up, the only thing I was ever going to do was go and work in advertising, or at least something related to it.
00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:45.040
And I got used to spend all of the holidays, school holidays, university holidays being mostly being a runner at production companies.
00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:49.280
Um and and then I don't really know what happened.
00:01:49.359 --> 00:02:10.319
I left university and I I probably had something like a bit of a kind of like wobble or whatever, and I got some work experience in totally different industry um uh for three months in fund management of all things, and uh at the end of it they offered me a job and it on paper it was you know it was a really, really good job.
00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:22.319
Uh so I took it, and so I sort of fell into something that wasn't really ever kind of part of the plan, um, and ended up doing that in one form or another for about 10 years.
00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:28.400
Um, but I think it's really hard to be really good at something you're not passionate about.
00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:37.120
I always yeah, I always used to my I guess my job was looking at companies and kind of analyzing companies from the outside.
00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:45.120
And um I always felt like it looked more interesting being in a company than looking in from the outside.
00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:56.400
So um I was I was trying to sort of inch my way towards being in a company rather than on the outside and looking in, and that took a few different kind of a few different forms.
00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:57.919
That rather begs the question.
00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:59.360
Could it have been anything?
00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:02.639
What why why low alcohol bear?
00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:13.759
Because you you what you've just described is an entrepreneurial impulse, which we often misunderstand as being like Alan Schubert and the apprentice, but actually control is often what entrepreneurs want and influence over something.
00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:15.039
That was the biggest thing.
00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:29.599
My biggest like frustration was I I it just I hated having kind of my destiny always felt like it was in someone else's hands, because if you don't ultimately make a decision on something, and I just I didn't like that.
00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:36.240
Um and there were I mean originally I thought, oh well, I want to go and work in a startup.
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:55.520
Um then I figured out I actually didn't have any skills or experiences to bring to a startup because everyone startups are always you and I know this so well now is you're always hiring to solve a very specific problem, and the idea is of having sort of generalist people that it just doesn't work.
00:03:55.919 --> 00:04:02.879
Um, and then I started thinking, well, if I was going to start my own business, what would it be?
00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:17.199
Um and a few ideas came and went, but the one I could never shake off was this idea of reinventing the sort of most hated, most maligned category in beer.
00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:22.560
Um and it just there was just a kind of an emotional pull towards it.
00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:47.600
Um I think because it was in it's kind of hard to think about it now, but if you go back to 2016 when sort of the idea first came about, there was Bex Blue, was the clear market leader by an absolute 55% market share, and then there was a beer called Bavaria Zero, and that was that was about it.
00:04:48.399 --> 00:05:09.120
Um so it was uh and it was this cascade, and you felt like you needed to apologise if you ordered a beer, um, and it's kind of it's amazing to see how far the the world has come since then, um but so that was the kind of the romantic kind of emotional bit that I got attached to.
00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:18.319
It was like, would it I wonder if it'd be possible to like build a brand that would make people feel positive about choosing to drink an alcohol-free beer?
00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:38.720
So you just framed it as building a brand, which is quite interesting because often people will start with a product, and obviously we're about to talk about that, and obviously you that is where the the business journey starts, um, in your case with the liquid, but you were always thinking about it as a brand rather than just a business or a product?
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:44.079
Yes, but I think product and everything is part of the brand.
00:05:44.319 --> 00:06:08.879
So if I think we are you know the brand is a function of the beer that we brew and the quality of the beer that we brew, firstly, secondly, the brand identity and the brand world that we kind of exist in, and third, our team and the culture that we've built around team, because you know that's what gives us kind of capacity to grow.
00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:30.399
Um, so all of all of those things make up the brand, and every you know, we're sitting above the pub, so everyone, every every person who walks through the front door of the pub, whether they're ordering a pint of Guinness or a pint of Lucky Saint or a pint of Camden Hells or whatever it is, they're still getting a Lucky Saint brand experience.
00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.040
So the hospitality that they receive.
00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:43.279
Every interaction that one of our sales team have with a customer is a brand experience for you know the person on the other end.
00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:45.839
So everything is part of our brand.
00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:48.639
Those uh those Saturday nights were well spent, Luke.
00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:54.879
That's a brilliant description of a true a true brand rather than you know one that gets pasted on.
00:06:54.959 --> 00:07:05.360
And um, I suspect part of the problem with the category was that that there just wasn't one, um, or there was a beer minus version of uh of another brand.
00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:24.319
Um tell me tell me about the product because that you know you you have great momentum now, but of course, when you start you have no momentum, um, and presumably there were plenty of hurdles as well as the odd helper in those first couple of years where you're trying to turn a dream into reality.
00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:41.439
Yeah, so I think like going back, I always thought all this here's this amazing proposition for the right occasion for the right person, you know, what could be better about this proposition of alcohol-free beer?
00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.040
But in reality, I wasn't even even a consumer of it.
00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.319
Um, and I boiled it down to two things.
00:07:48.399 --> 00:08:06.879
There was this this brand part, there wasn't a brand that was gonna make me feel positive and feel aspirational, but there also wasn't a beer in a bottle that was good enough to bring me in, and that was the bit I sort of always knew I was like, it was it's pointless having a brand unless there's a good enough beer.
00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:15.120
So that was what I spent from 2016 to 2018 uh working on and a little bit naively.
00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.519
I when I I did I literally didn't even know how you brewed beer.
00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.000
I was like, I was on Google, like, how do you brew beer?
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:23.519
How do you brew alcohol-free beer?
00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:28.399
Like, you know, it was Google's an incredible resource.
00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:44.000
Um, but ended up spending two years working with six different breweries in three different countries, trialed every process there is for brewing alcohol-free beer.
00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:56.159
Um trial ended up around like looking at different styles, different ingredients, like the full the full kind of the full spectrum.
00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:06.159
Um, but doing it all without uh effectively just by reaching out to breweries and saying, look, here's what I'd love to do.
00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:09.279
Um can you help me?
00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:30.799
Uh so there wasn't uh so it was it ebbed and flowed a lot, depending on whether or not I'd managed to get someone in a brewery somewhere in Europe, whether that was the UK or Belgium or Germany, to uh get excited about it and be willing to put some of their kind of resource and time behind figuring it out.
00:09:31.200 --> 00:10:10.159
Um, so yeah, as I said, it sort of it ebbed and flowed, and you kind of you get a new relationship and it's and it all it's all exciting, and then you know, you two or three brews later and no good results, and uh there was a sort of inevitability about the phone call that would come from the owner or CEO or whoever it was who I'd sort of built a relationship with to say, look, Luke, I'm sorry, but my brewers are much more comfortable brewing, you know, messing around with five, six, seven, eight percent IPAs than they are with your alcohol-free beer project.
00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:15.519
Um, so I'm sorry, but it's not gonna work, and then you said duly move on to the next one.
00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:36.960
Um, but try and try and learn all the you know, try and take some learnings out of it, out of uh everything that you do, and yeah, ultimately, ultimately found this brewery in Germany who uh I knew brewed amazing lager in their own right, uh, but also had the technology to be able to brew alcohol-free beer.
00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:51.840
Um and they yeah, managed to managed to convince them uh that they should invest some of their time in it and yeah, ultimately, ultimately got to Lucky Saint.
00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:59.840
So tell me about so so that that are you working on the brand in parallel or is it sequential?
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:00.480
Is it product?
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:16.960
It was sort of sequential, so there were there was there was overlap, but there was only overlap once I had a a degree of confidence that we were going to be able to get to a product, and that didn't that really that didn't come until uh towards the end of 2017.
00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.720
So tell me about those early brand discussions then.
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.960
So you you you you said up front that you were trying to build a brand in this space.
00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:32.399
So how how did who who was involved and what were the conversations you had, and how did you end up with Lucky Sound?
00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:48.559
Um so there's two there's sort of there were two phases to it because I was and I this is what you sort of learn when you you go on a journey like this, is you're completely naive to at like absolutely everything.
00:11:48.879 --> 00:12:14.559
Um so I worked with um a really good friend who's a brand strategist uh and then kind of pieced together various kind of other bits of support uh from a kind of design perspective and and copywriting perspective and that kind of thing, and um built a brand called Not Another Beer Co.
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:46.320
Um and I was it it all of the fun so it it was all built on really good insight, but I made a like a poor decision around the name, and the name ended up leading down through like a tone of voice, um, and an identity that just wasn't it what it wasn't right, but it's all started from this name.
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:54.080
But when you don't know, I remember you don't when you've not done it before, you don't know what it feels like when it is right.
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:57.840
So you don't know, or maybe you know you're looking at things like is it right, is it wrong?
00:12:57.919 --> 00:12:59.039
But you just don't know.
00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:08.080
So you sort of you keep kind of going through the process, and you have to I always feel like you you've always the wheels you have to keep the wheels turning, whatever you can't just sort of stop and do nothing.
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.080
So you keep the wheels turning.
00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:18.960
Um and then in 2018, I'd sort of finished my job and committed that the the beer was ready.
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:34.159
Um and I went out and I actually I sent the presentation that I had to a guy called uh Ben Bilbo, who uh was the founder and he was running Kamarama at the time.
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:42.320
And I actually didn't know Ben, but I figured he would kind I figured he would recognise my name and he would maybe read the email.
00:13:42.720 --> 00:14:04.720
And so I sent this deck, and it was quite a kind of it was quite a uh uh provocative deck in that the first the opening slide on it was in font size 72, was not Bex Blue, not a range extension, not apologizing, not just another beer.
00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:12.879
Um so it was quite you know, you slam your fist on the table, and it was it was it was kind of like yeah, quite provocative in that way.
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:26.639
And Ben actually really kind of he just picked up the phone and and he said hi Luke, and he he was like, Look, I you know, I love I love the idea of building a brand in a category that has no brands.
00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:35.039
Um and I can totally see the the need for the product and the proposition.
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:39.600
He said, How how how far down the naming and branding route are you?
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:42.720
Uh, which was a sort of ominous question.
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.200
I said, Well, you know, it's kind of ready to hit print.
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.360
And he said, I think you should start again.
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:58.320
Um, and he said, What you've done is you've I think you've started with a name that's led you down a creative uh kind of direction.
00:14:58.639 --> 00:14:59.600
There's a couple of things.
00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:41.840
One, by calling it not another beer co, you are sort of almost immediately defining yourself as what you're not rather than what you are, and he said it's you know it is quite a noisy and you know way to kind of launch a brand, but the risk that you run is that um in the medium term it becomes harder and harder to think of new ways to define yourself as different, and given that there's no one, there are no brands in this category at this point, why not go after the propositional side of the category and celebrate everything that you are, and that territory will be much richer and much longer lasting.
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:54.240
And when he articulated that in that way, I just you know, I was on a call just sort of metaphorically like rip rip ripping up and saying, right, well, we need to start again.
00:15:54.559 --> 00:16:00.480
Um, so I'd actually coincidentally, I'd met uh John O.
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:20.960
Holt, who runs other way, um and so and I I'd met him the week before, uh and so I picked the phone back up to him and I said, So you know what we we were talking about, kind of you know, getting a bit of a plan of of working on some launch ideas and stuff like this.
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:24.000
Can we actually just just start at the beginning?
00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:36.320
Uh like new name, new brand identity, all of the same stri like all of the same strategy that was going to go into it, but it was just we need to we just started with like we'd made one kind of wrong move.
00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.399
So you so you start from scratch, um, and what is what does that look like?
00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:45.679
How how do we how do we now have this great great product sitting in front of us?
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:51.279
Um I I guess it was a bit like you know, a sort of classic design process.
00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:55.440
They uh we went back through all of the strategy.
00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:11.599
Um it was a blank sheet of paper, and it was like naming and design routes, and they came back with four routes and said, Please don't pick your favourite bits from each one, they have like you know, they're sort of distinct ideas.
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:26.960
Um came back and said, Well, I really like really like that bit of the first one and that bit of the second one, and if we just have a touch of that out of the fourth one, Tom Moore, who's the designer who who worked worked on it, was like just oh like amazing.
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:38.079
Um and kept, and there was some there were some there were some decisions in there that there was a decision around the big funny enough, the big decision actually that was probably the most contentious was there were two kinds of font.
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:59.200
There was a sort of slightly more traditional Bavarian influenced font, and then there was the much more kind of modern lucky saint font as it is today, and I'm I much preferred this kind of like this slight kind of nod to the tradition of Bavarian fonts, um, and they totally overruled me.
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:06.640
Um they just didn't like no, you've got it, you you've got it wrong, um, which was great.
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:16.960
Well, good good for you having uh the strength of relationship to trust in that challenge and to and in on that occasion to to give into it, I suppose.
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:27.440
Um so the so the name, I'm I'm fascinated by the name because it's a great name for a pub, uh I have to say, um, and perhaps that's why it's a great name for a beer, but how how did you get to the name?
00:18:27.839 --> 00:19:01.759
Um well the first so the first route that they um did was called Saint, and thought that's quite an it's it was quite an interesting name because there's loads of um uh brewing and religion have sort of intertwined as you go back through, you know, lots of monks have been brewers, and and so by kind of that saint name automatically feels like it's been around for it, has a sort of sense of like permanence about it, I think, because of that link, that historical link between the two.
00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:05.920
Um but then we couldn't get the trademark on it.
00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:20.720
I remember very clearly I was on the phone to John O, walking around outside Westfield shopping centre, um, kind of at my wit's end, and out of nowhere, he just said, Well, what about Lucky Saint?
00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:26.240
And in an instant, it was it was like that's it, we're done.
00:19:26.400 --> 00:20:17.119
And the saint, apart from the religious kind of heritage bit, there is obviously this kind of nod to virtuousness, and we can all feel we can all feel a little bit uh saintly if we're not drinking, and then the lucky part for me has always had this there's a podcast series called How I Built This, which is uh interviews or and st um yeah, interviews with founders of some of the most like amazing businesses and brands that um from James Dyson to the founders of Airbnb and like all of this stuff, but the last they're they're so engaging, and the last question that Guy Raz, the interviewer, always asked them is how much of your success do you put down to skill and judgment, and how much do you put down to luck?
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:22.000
And and the response is nearly always it's like the response is nearly always the same.
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:29.759
It's a kind of uh very humble, right place, right time, lucky breaks, serendipitous meetings.
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:37.759
And so the lucky part of our name is always kind of an ode to the luck that I think you need to make these things work.
00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:54.480
So um you've talked um a lot about serendipity, but this also looks like a brand that's been built in a very disciplined and deliberate way rather than just being a consequence of some lucky bouncers.
00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:05.759
Um certainly from an advertising point of view, it looks like a very deliberate playbook in terms of look, feel, consistency, familiar channels.
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:07.359
So if you could tell me more about that.
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.599
Um yeah, there's I guess there's sort of there's lots, there's lots in there.
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:26.480
So there's I think things that I guess it started out always wanting to build um something that would be defining.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:31.599
That was you know, our ambition is to build the world's defining alcohol-free brand.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:46.720
Um, and so we've always everything that we've done, I've always sort of had the intention of I'd rather do less things and do them really, really well than sort of trying to try to do everything and and spread ourselves too thin.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:51.680
So that starts with product and the quality of the beer that we brew.
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, for five years we had it, we were a single product in a single market and like very, very disciplined around.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.400
Building in the right channels in the right venues in the right channels.
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:23.920
Um, there's a from a from a brand perspective, we got, I mean, uh the brand visually, like when I say the brand, the kind of brand identity in terms of packaging and all that is totally unchanged since we launched.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:30.400
Um, and I do I ask Tom more about once a year, I like put the bottle in front of him.
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:32.960
I'm like, Tom, do you want to change anything?
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:38.319
Uh and and he has a bit of a look at it and he says, No, no, we're all good.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:45.920
Um, but it hasn't uh we've then tried lots of things.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:23:28.480
I think kind of going from a the having a visual packaging and stuff is one thing, but then building that out actually took quite a lot of time, and we've had uh we had a lot of goes at trying to figure out what what does the brand look like around because I think the if I think what you're referring to is that the we've got our out-of-home media and you know the ads and stuff that we we run um have this kind of distinctive style to them, which is an overall kind of brand aesthetic, but we didn't it was uh it didn't start off, it actually didn't start off looking like that at all.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:24:15.920
Um so uh we've been on a bit of a journey with that, um, and it wasn't until three years ago that we pieced together kind of three things, which was one was we used the the nun that we shot with Rankin, which is a whole story in its own right, but we did that in 2019, and then we ended up taking one of those images that he took, which was a uh uh it was a there was a there was a sort of dark version of her wearing black, and then there was a lighter version of her wearing white, and we took that um colour palette and used it literally to sort of create like the whole brand world.
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:39.519
So it's this and then we took big bold blue font on this kind of putty background, and then this sort of religious referenced imagery, which starts with the nun, but then also the all the shots of the hands that we use are kind of are all rooted in kind of religious shot shots of and kind of religious iconography around how they hold their hands.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:25:01.359
Um but it took it took us two or three years to sort of get to that, and then we brought in the tone of voice, which is kind of like uh just uh a wry kind of nod to some religious tone of voice that's used hopefully hopefully in a kind of uh in a measured way.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:10.480
Um and once we got and that all started to work together about three years ago, we've then been able to be really consistent with it.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:26.880
But there were some iterations of things that we tried before that that um were you know just never they sort of never quite worked, but we've always always invested in doing it, and if it didn't work, that was fine.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:37.599
And um think of uh yeah, the odd project that you're you know was a load of work and a big investment, and it it didn't work.
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:39.359
Um yeah.
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:41.359
Am I right in presuming?
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:43.680
I I think so, because I think it was on the receiving end of some of it.
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:48.240
Presumably your your advertising journey starts with search and social, is that right?
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:54.079
And then and you you now find your way to uh I think genuinely iconic outdoor.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.599
Are you were there different decisions to make along the way?
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:08.000
Did you have to persuade investors uh in different ways at different points to to support the brand?
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:18.079
I think the investment that I guess that advertising, so yes to search and social almost before that.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.720
Um it was kind of the first thing was investment in creative.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.799
So we were investing in creative when we hadn't no money for media.
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.880
Um which was it started funny enough.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:47.599
Um Ben very kindly just after we launched, said, look, you should come into Karma Armour and we'll we'll do do some work with, we'll put a team together and we'll do an afternoon workshop on some ideas of how the brand might come to life in reality.
00:26:47.839 --> 00:27:09.680
And the thing that came out of that was an idea to shoot photography of an unexpected lucky saint, and the idea that rose to the top with this was this kind of arresting image of a nun drinking a beer, um, and but with no media budget, or really no no budget at all.
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:25.359
We um there I say we they came up with an idea was let's shoot this image, and if we could get someone interesting to shoot the image, maybe the story will be who's shot it, rather than you know putting it everywhere.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:39.440
And uh we sent it in, sent the brief into Rankin's office, and amazingly he said he said, sure, I'll do it, I'll do it, and I'm free next Thursday.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:50.960
Um, and so one week later we were in his studio um having piece together at uh you know nuns and outfits and all of that stuff.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:19.599
Um so we invested in that first, um, and actually, you know, it's been the kind of like a defining piece of work that actually the only place it went, we posted it on some fly posters around Shoreditch, and that was really as that was kind of as far as the campaign went, but it got a little bit of press pickup, um, and and it's yeah, as I say, it's a now it sits at the very kind of top of of the brand.
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:25.359
Um so we've we've done that.
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:39.200
I think the other thing before we get into kind of traditional media and buying um in traditional media space, distribution has been the biggest driver of awareness.
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:51.440
Like um being listed on menus in the most influential on-trade accounts in the UK is our awareness driver.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:58.400
Um what it says about your brand when you're listed in a Michelin star restaurant is only good.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:05.519
Um so uh that's been that's been the biggest thing.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:16.000
So really where all of our investment you know has gone in in the first instance was after growing distribution in the right places and in the right channels.
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:35.119
Um we've then from a media perspective, we've had quite a traditional kind of media journey in a sense because we've uh done London Underground, you know, we've like traditional out-of-home media.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:54.880
Um the difference I think has been trying to have creative in those spaces that stands out because in reality our budgets are still tiny, um, particularly compared to the the large multinational brewers who have uh yeah live operate in a different world to us.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:04.799
Um but on really small budgets, we've had our you know our awareness over the last 18 months in London's gone from 30% to 40% to 50%.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:58.799
Um so we've had you know amazing results actually of uh just a kind of uh disciplined like media buy and and really strong creative um and and always trying to do and then from a creative perspective prioritizing uh the distinctiveness of of the creative over trying to do what traditional beer brands which will do, which is show you a a pint of beer, a refreshing pint of beer with beads of water falling down, you know, dripping down the side of the glass and people smiling and laughing in the background, all these like very traditional kind of what you expect to see from beer advertising.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:31.440
If we we won't cut through if we do all of those same things, so you won't find uh famous last words, but you won't, you know, you won't find us doing those kind of like classic looking beer things because it's it's just we won't we we won't be distinctive if we do that and uh you know we need to be ten times more effective with the money that we've got than a large multinational will be because otherwise we'll never you know we won't we won't catch them.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.519
And what so that magic word, uh effective.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:37.920
What what do you mean by that?
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:51.839
Do you mean effective in real time across the duration of a campaign, sales uplift, awareness uplift, or does effective mean to you the thing you talked about earlier about being the defining brand?
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:55.119
Is it is it a is it a more long-term price?
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:57.519
It's definitely a long-term price.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.519
I don't it's really hard, it's really hard, particularly at our scale.
00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:10.400
You know, we're still small, really hard to measure um the kind of immediate effect of a of a campaign.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:29.599
Um so and and when we run there are so many inputs, so also the advertising is only one part of the campaign because we'll be doing everything from activations in pubs and restaurants, activation in store, so all of that ladders up, plus promotional campaigns.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:39.839
So it'd be very difficult to kind of pull that, identify what was the actual uplift from the advertising piece of that.
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:56.960
So it's very much about showing yeah, I guess showing people creative and delivering on a brand that is gonna be this kind of defining alcohol-free brand.
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:08.480
That's the and it's a very much a long-term thing, and that's a cumulatively adding up all of the touch points that a consumer sees over the life cycle.
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:13.279
They all they need to be cumulatively exceptional.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:31.279
I'm not saying everything that we do is exceptional, um uh it certainly isn't, but we need to aspire to do that, and overall the kind of the experience that a consumer sees needs needs to be that.
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:44.480
I I love that, and certainly um the brands and businesses that typically win our awards are exactly that, they're cumulatively exceptional in a world that increasingly measures short because we can.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:54.559
I think there is such a thing as founder's syndrome, where a founder is uh pathologically incapable of letting go of their business.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:01.279
And um your passion for branding and advertising is evident as I talked to you, but also in the outputs that you've created.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:09.360
So are you are you still really the brand manager, I guess, or or do you manage to step uh step back from the the furnace?
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:23.199
We've got we've now got an amazing team, and I think they'd say that I'm now much better at at stepping stepping out of it.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:32.800
So um and I because I I also I can't I can't be in the I literally can't be in the detail of all all of these things.
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:56.239
Um so I'd like to think I mean I conceptually like the idea of uh setting direction, it's the sort of first five percent and the last five percent, so setting direction at the beginning, um, and then also have being able to input into uh final the kind of the final outputs.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:14.320
Um but yeah, our you know Kertu and Emily and and Meg and the rest of the of the of the marketing team now have uh they've got such a good instinct on what is and isn't right for us as a brand.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:21.360
But I that I think is testament to your team, but it it also sounds very much like a brand-led business.
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:33.840
The um the distinction uh I think with Ronan Dunn when he used to run O2 made was this isn't a business operating a brand, it's a brand directing a business.
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:36.639
And I thought that was quite a profound thing.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:44.159
If you if you if you follow what the brand is telling you to do rather than what the new joiner is telling you to do, you'll typically end up in a better place.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:53.039
I've never really I mean I've never really thought about it, but I instinctively I think I think you're right, like we don't we do think brand first.
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:56.639
That is, you know, at the end of the day, that's uh all we are.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:01.760
And when you think about you know the brand is those three things I always come back to.
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:13.039
It's like the the beer and the quality of the beer, the kind of identity and visually, orally the way that we show up, and then the team, the culture.
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:16.480
That that's what that's all Lucky Saint is.
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:21.920
Um, so we sort of we have to keep fostering and nurturing all of those three things.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.559
And tell me a little bit about your investors.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:35.519
So they obviously understand that, and they obviously have been supportive of the cumulatively exceptional brand path you're on rather than just short-term wins.
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:38.079
Yeah, very much so.
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:49.920
I mean because we'd have, I mean, look, we've got so we have we've raised a certain amount of money uh to build the business.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:56.079
Um we've raised money from some really interesting people to have involved in the business as well.
00:36:56.239 --> 00:37:04.320
So lots of um individuals, a good number of whom have come from the advertising world.
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:33.679
Um so Ben, who obviously mentioned um James Murphy and David Golding, um, and and then the other really significant uh moment was when Jamjar, which is the investment fund started by the three innocent founders, um, so they joined us on the journey at the back end of 2020.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:39.599
Um, and Rich Reed is absolutely amazing on this stuff.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:58.000
Um, so we've had lots of people around the table who've been really engaged in what we're doing, and actually the the big thing that happened after after having about two years or so after launch, so around it was actually just it was around early 2021.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:41.039
We sort of knew there were lots of things that were working, but we'd never codified or articulated what what what they were, we didn't have values as a business, we hadn't set ambition, we hadn't set vision and purpose and all this stuff, and that was fine because we were a team of 15, 20 people, um, and instinctively it it was you know, you there were enough touch points between us all to be able to kind of instinctively know about this stuff, but we set out to kind of articulate and codify um it started with kind of mission and purpose and values were the two things we wanted to get out of it.
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:57.599
Um, and we we had 10 questions that we sent round to anyone who knew us well, clearly everyone internally, which was really important, but then also um kind of key investors who we thought would have a really good point of view on this stuff.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:07.360
Um, and what came it was the most brilliant like piece of work, the stuff we got back was absolutely amazing.
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:14.559
Um, and it uh it came out, so we got our our values out of that.
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:20.000
We also got a set of mantras because um there was basically two there was too much.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:25.039
So we have a set of values that we live by, and then a set of mantras that we work by.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.840
So our our values are be generous, stay humble, and get lucky.
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:46.079
Um, and then we have our mantras that we work by, which are do the right thing well, um, which is a uh um stolen and adapted with pride from innocent.
00:39:47.119 --> 00:40:17.840
Um the next one is like find the devil in the detail, which is kind of all around um yeah, just making sure that the stuff that we do, particularly as a brand, is like is just right and has that lucky saint touch to it, um, and then make sustainability second nature, which is all about ensuring that we build a business that was that is here for 10, 20, 50, 100 years to come, and and that influences all our decision making.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:52.320
Um, and then we got one other thing that's been uh uh we didn't where know where to put it, and it's but it's kind of so we call it our call to arms, which is break rules honor traditions, um which was uh Rich Reed was uh the he coined it really well, and he said, look, the lucky saint works when there's a there's this tension in like what you do, and it starts actually with alcohol-free beer, is in itself is a dichotomy, right?
00:40:52.400 --> 00:41:01.119
There's this tension in in it, then you come down and the lucky saint name lucky saint are two words, lucky and saint are two words that don't really belong together.
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:08.000
There's this kind of tension in them, the nun holding the beer again, all these things.
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:19.920
Uh, but then this idea of unknowing where we should break rules as a challenger brand, and typically challenger brands are really good at breaking all of the rules.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:26.079
We think it's as important to honour the tradition, honour some traditions and some category conventions.
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:37.280
Um I always think of like actually the semiotics of the beer and the brown bottle and the traditional crown cap.
00:41:37.760 --> 00:42:01.199
So lot lots of the things are very beery about about the brand, but then the creative is neither it's neither traditional beer nor craft beer, it's sort of it it has its kind of has its own own style to it, and then you know, things like the category conventions about how we build and the places that we build distribution in.
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:09.039
Um actually it's been really important to build in the right accounts with quite a kind of traditional on-trade build.
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:32.000
So anyway, that piece of work we ended up with a sort of a manifesto and values and mantras, and that's uh what's I think allowed us then, as we've grown as a business, we've gone from 20 people to 60 people, um having that all codified as a you know what our brand stands for.
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:37.920
Um and we obviously then have brand guidelines and and all those sorts of things as well.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:53.360
So that's then kind of allowed us to stay consistent and means that hopefully uh yeah, I don't I'm I'm not in everyone's um everyone's kind of homework all of the time.
00:42:54.559 --> 00:43:06.079
I think uh almost all of our members will know your brand because you have done such a good job uh with such consistent identity, consistent tone of voice.
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:09.360
I suspect they've got no idea about the scale of the business today.
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:12.079
So could you just tell me a little bit about how how you're doing now?
00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:14.400
We've talked about the sort of founding stories.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:16.480
Where are you in 2024?
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:23.760
So 2024, we are we're the UK's number one dedicated alcohol-free beer brand.
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:28.400
We're listed in 10,000 on-trade accounts.
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:40.639
Uh we're listed across all of the well, actually, those 10,000 on-trade accounts includes a thousand draft taps and 81 Michelin star restaurants.
00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:45.119
They don't sell as much beer as the draft taps, but they are just as important.
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:51.920
Um then we're listed across retail, um, all the major supermarkets.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:58.559
Um, we've been a, yeah, I guess that I mentioned earlier single product, single market brand for five years.
00:43:58.719 --> 00:43:59.760
Then at the end of last year, we lost.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:14.320
Launched our hazy IPA, and then we've also launched Ireland, and so we're just sort of beginning to kind of explore what international looks like for Lucky Saint.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:18.159
So that's kind of I guess where we are on the journey.
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:28.239
So, and we're I always think we sit between, you know, we're not as big as Heineken Zero or Guinness Zero.
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:42.000
And I don't know whether we ever will be, but the ambition is to be uh the defining brand, and that that means being more synonymous with the category than anyone else.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:54.159
So, in the same way that Fever Tree is synonymous with tonic water and Tesla is synonymous with electric cars, we want Lucky Saint to be the barcall for alcohol free.
00:44:54.639 --> 00:45:10.159
I'd like to just lastly scratch around um uh the area of sustainability because you mention it, and because you are a proud B Corp, is that important to you personally or to team or to consumer?
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:12.719
How do how does that play through your brand?
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.679
Um, so important to all three.
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:47.440
Um I think it starts if you go back to this um this mantra, which is you know, as a business we need to make sustainability second nature, and that's about building a business which will stand the test of time, and that's so environmental decisions are part of that, but also uh investing in brand and long-term investment decisions are are equally important.
00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:54.079
Um, so we went on, yeah, we started the B Corp journey.
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:58.000
I'm I'm gonna get my idea probably three years ago.
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:14.320
Um, we view B Corp as an accreditation and a reflection of the things that we do as a business rather than uh doing all doing all of these things in order that we can become a B Corp, if you see what I mean.
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:16.559
I think it's an important distinction.
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:34.639
Um and it's increasingly uh so it's a huge draw for the team members uh and people actively joining the business because of uh the things that that we do and the things that we stand for.
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:41.760
Um and that's around that's as much around like people and inclusivity as it is around environmental decisions as well.
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:48.559
Um and then uh it's becoming increasingly important for consumers as well.
00:46:48.960 --> 00:47:14.000
So, but it all for me this is it kind of all ladders back to this idea of you know what sustainable really means is like you know how how can we be around for a long time, and that means that we need to be able to, you know, consumers need to love us, our team need to love working here, um, we need to do the right thing by the planet that we live on because otherwise there's no point being here.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:17.920
There won't be a planet to you know to protect.
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:21.920
So I guess that's that's the viewpoint of it.
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:31.760
And then as always, we're it is a it's a journey and one that's it's never it's ne it'll never it'll never be complete.
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:45.599
There will always be room for improvement, and we start from a you know we we start from a place of yes, we're a B Corp, but we know there's lots more that we can and would like to do.
00:47:45.920 --> 00:48:01.280
Um and that you have to roadmap that out, and it's important from a you know, in reality as a small business, actually our footprint, relatively speaking, just because we're a small business, is quite small.
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:11.039
But if we can set ourselves up in such a way that our footprint, our environmental footprint will be smaller as we grow, then that's that's also as important.
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:15.599
Not sure I've articulated that very well, but no, I th that made perfect sense.
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:16.800
That's great.
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:18.719
Um final question.
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:22.880
So you you've built this great brand, I think it was brand of the year at the Marketing Society.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:23.920
Uh we did.
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:27.519
You've built this great business, you've built out a great team.
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:29.840
What keeps you awake at night?
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:31.440
What's what do you worry about?
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:33.920
I don't know, I sleep quite well.
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:46.000
I I'd say it's less about I don't know, I always think it's it's less about challenges and more around opportunities.
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:55.920
And um we've still got you know a huge the category in this country is still actually it's still embryonic.
00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:05.679
There's only 2% of beer sales in this country are alcohol free, um, and that that number is much higher across the rest of Europe.
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:11.440
So um there's still you know loads for us to do.
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:28.239
Um and then we've just launched IPA, so really excited about that, and it's launched literally last week in the on-trade, so it's been in retail so far this year, and it's now we've now just launched in the on-trade in bottle.
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:47.599
Um, so exciting, exciting piece uh of growing that, and then we're beginning to think about what Lucky Saint might look like in a kind of global context, and coming back to this ambition to build the world, the world's defining alcohol-free brand.
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:57.679
Um, we need to take what we've built in the UK and understand what it would look like internationally and and how we do that.
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:05.440
That sounds like a great place to end because what you've just described is restlessness rather than sleeplessness.
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:09.440
Um so uh congratulations on what you've done so far.
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:15.599
Good luck for the future, and thank you so much for spending time with us today telling us your story.
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:20.559
You've been listening to the effectiveness files with me, Lawrence Green.
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:26.480
Check out the IPA website or wherever you get your podcasts for more Tales from the C Suite.
