speaker-0: Welcome to Inner Work, the podcast on workplace mental health and well-being. Inner work is the practice of mastering your thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and actions so you can create a more harmonious and joyous life. I'm your host, Susanna Scherberg. Press pause on the noise and tune in. My guest today is Jean Vier Rogira, a psychologist who has spent his career studying what allows people to flourish under pressure. First as a researcher and now a staffed well being expert inside a large international organization. Jeanville holds a PhD and MBA and spent years at the University of Johannesburg researching well being in African context. That has taken him from measuring flourishing among Tanzanian university students to studying the Maasai of East Africa. He's also contributed to the International Handbook of Positive Psychology, writing on indigenous perspectives and the future of the field in sub-Saharan Africa. Today he works with people in some of the most demanding environments in the world. Javier, welcome. I'm really delighted to have you on the podcast.
speaker-1: It's a pleasure to be with you, Susan. Thank you for having me.
speaker-0: So your career has crossed really continents and roles. What's the true line that connects all of it for you?
speaker-1: That's correct. I have had the pleasure of working in different contexts in academia, in business consulting, and in employee health and well-being across organizations. I've had the pleasure of working in Tanzania, in South Sudan, in South Africa, and currently based in New York. And to me, I've really never left the classroom. I've not left research. I've not left my private practice. I've just moved the desks in different institutions and the question has always been the same. It's about the person that belong, you know, identifies with that institution. How can we be supported to reach potential flourish even more? So irrespective of whether I was in a classroom teaching undergrad and when I moved it focused on research or more complete job of academia. to the humanitarian organizations. I always think it's just the desk that I move with, with the same notes, the same question about the person who is there.
speaker-0: Yeah, and you describe your work as humanizing workplaces. And I've seen you do that in practice, but can you describe to the listeners or what that means for you and you know, what are the things that you try to shift or where do you start in an organization?
speaker-1: That's quite an interesting question. And I think it's in the name. It's about valuing the human. It's about the culture change where we shift from treating people as functions, but as individuals who define our organization. First by fixing the policy, then let the culture follow, not the other way around. When we humanize the workplace, we are talking about redesigning how we think about the workplace. We are not talking about training. We are just saying, let's shift and focus on the past and their well-being. And that will actually pay off for the organization to be able to reach its goals. And one point that you may think about, just get in an organization where the people are depressed, or unhappy, or resentful, and see how such organizations perform. how people work out of business because of how people are treated. And that's the whole idea that we can't value functions over who holds that function. So the job title itself is meaningless, but the person who holds that title is what is important.
speaker-0: You have studied positive psychology and like we said earlier in the introduction, you have even contributed to positive psychology research. I know that your doctoral research in Tanzania found most students were flourishing and not just coping. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? I think we could all do a little bit more with flourishing. If you don't mind just explaining what flourishing is.
speaker-1: This comes at the bottom of positive psychology as a science. You know, shifting from this, this model. So focusing on what is it that really makes people function. In essence, no interest in the wrong things in the disease, but rather about the power, the sense of optimism, the sense of having meaning in life, the idea of having value, what it looks forward for tomorrow. And when I conceived my doctoral research with the well-being of students in Tanzania, which was part of my work at the time, my job was, I was a Dean of Students of one of the small Christian universities in Northern Tanzania. And I had been interested actually in why do people drop out. That was the bottom line because that was more on my performance plan. I need to keep people on campus. But The more I looked at it and compared it during the retreat, I realized, wait a minute, we have very low dropout rate compared to universities in South Africa, compared to universities in Europe. And I'm like, these people barely make it from a GDP point of view. And yet they stick around. They don't drop out. They look happy. The existing general population data about prevalence of depression or major stress. is very low compared to those that have everything, if you will. What is the thing? So that was the genesis. And I wanted to know what is it that makes them flourish? What is it that makes them stick on campus as compared to other people completing their degrees within the four years with a higher percentage as compared to the Western world where the degree would be completed in five, six, seven years and sometime many years after that. And so, to that regard, my students weren't just copying, they were flourishing. And they did not look at that as a personal achievement because again, a big shift. They did not see themselves as individual, they saw themselves as a collective. And so, one of the protective factors that kept them in school that made them smile. even if they had less material was the sense of belonging, the fact that they just see themselves as a collective. And so from a positive psychology assumption of individualistic approach, my realization was that when it comes to community, there is nothing that beats a sense of belonging, having a shoulder to lean on and even taking the action of going to school as a family business. So my degree, it's the pride of my family. I'll be the first to graduate. You carry really the vision and the life of the community. That was the motivating thing. And I was like, wait a minute, to make it and to succeed and to flourish has nothing to do with the individualistic approach. And so that was actually my launch pad to try to figure out what is it that is going on in the global South. particularly within the indigenous communities where there is race research. And yet you customize, you make sure that the research is relevant to the community so that there is no bias. You measure and you find low levels of depression. Their mental health is in-tie. And you try to ask a person at individual level, they can't think of themselves as one. It's always us. And that is the embodiment of It's not me. This is a family thing. We all own it. And if I drop out, it's the whole family that has failed. Of course, that comes with some sense of pressure, necessary enough to prepare forward. So in essence, I did not really reject the individual model that has informed the Western psychology. But I think in my research, throughout for my PhD and the postdoc I did afterwards and more studies I do even now, I think I've been able to translate it into the context of Africa. That one is not one person, it's one community. It's really about a collective view, which defines what we do, the norms and the values.
speaker-0: Interesting. Would you say is it all sub Saharan Africa share the same or are there regions or can we generalize this to Africa or Sub Saharan Africa?
speaker-1: I've been inclined to generalize in that regard, particularly when you think about communities where the nuclear family is not a stronger point. Our family is defined in a way that is extended. You find communities where you visit by the second visit, your host introduces you as a brother or a sister because you've already crossed the line of being a stranger. You're already in and it means literally you're in. And in those communities where they still see the us, you're one of us. We're gonna sit on a mat. We can't serve you alone. We cannot eat alone. We will not walk alone. You need two people around you. It's nothing that they are treating you in any special way because you're an outsider. It's just how they treat each other. You're never alone, in a sense. And the communities I would say most of the southern Africa would identify. There's of course the cost of urbanization where the migration from the rural areas tends to disconnect and really dismantle the fabric that made people belong into the larger society. When you think about collective responsibilities, an example, when I grew up and I was growing up, I knew that during school hours, if I was to be found on the roadside, any adult would question me and hold my hand all the way to the head mask, whether I knew the person or not. But now, in the urban setting, that wouldn't happen. You know, stranger danger type poverty. But before, any adult would have responsibility over me. And the same would be true, like cooking meals, for example. growing up and this is even still true in the urban area, you think about countries like Rwanda, Tanzania, you never cook the exact meal of the people in the household. You're always expecting somebody may show up and eat food. Even if nobody shows up a year, you still need to have an extra plate, an extra portion which will be used for the following day. But that's not what it's meant for because there's no appointment to visit. People belong, they walk in. And that does become, you know, the protective factors. When you bring the urbanization, then there's a shift where those in the urban areas in the major cities like Johannesburg, like Nairobi or others, they will start scoring very much a profile that is more Western. But still, those that hold those family lines, not necessarily family by blood, it's a family by a sense of belonging. they would still score much better and have a societal identity as opposed to the Western society.
speaker-0: There's such an important message there for Western societies as well. Because we know that collective protects our mental health and well being. I mean, your research shows it clearly, we know it that from biology. And yet we have been encouraging people to be very individualistic and do just the opposite of what our biology needs and what we as social beings also need. So what you're saying is in essence that it would be good to reverse this trend and learn a way to cultivate that connection.
speaker-1: One of the most researched concepts on longevity of humankind from all cultures is a sense of belonging. Those who have people that they count on and count on them, they can lean on. That's the most known protective factor that leads to longevity. And it's not about reversing anything, but I think it's high time. that we really think about intentional connection. When we are able to look at our phone book or our Facebook friends and be able to say, I've got 4,000 followers. If I went offline for two weeks, how many will actually make every single effort to figure out what happened? Or how many people do reach out irrespective of whether I'm off or on? Who knows about me? because you can be lonely in a crowd of people. And if that is something that anybody feels, then intentional connection, you know, where you move from general acquaintances and invest into personal relationship. wouldn't say you need 10 people, but you definitely need bank on solid connection. Friendship with no benefits. It's not about I will be helped to get a job. It's just a neutral connection and it's to start when we intentionally invest in relationships as much as we invest in anything else. It pays good dividends, trust me.
speaker-0: Yeah. I have observed this in my work, working with people from Sub-Saharan Africa, and some of the best managers that I have seen have actually come from Sub-Saharan Africa. And you're just giving me food for thought of why that is, because there seems to be a an understanding of how you take care of people, which is very different from some other cultures. This is not to say, you know, it's these things are never black and white. It's not that one culture is better than the other. But there could be some cultural elements in in especially this ability to take care of people and see the human, humanizing workplaces while also delivering good results. And you know, your work, which is very, very interesting, has also touched upon the South Africa's truth and reconciliation process, like as applied positive psychology at national scale. So what can organizations learn from it about repair and dignity and rebuilding trust after Han? For example, now that many organi international organizations are going through big layoffs or other turmoil and big changes, so those things go out of the window very quickly. What can we learn from that process in your opinion?
speaker-1: Interestingly, the Truth and Reconciliation Move of South Africa came to also inform the reconciliation efforts in Rwanda, where it comes from. And there's quite a parallel. And how it all starts, it doesn't start with forgiveness, where people have resentment and they just choose to forgive an organization or the other person. It always starts with a testimony. What tends to happen is that such testimonies in organizations are skipped. How the layoff is impacting me at personal level, there's no space in organizations to do that. And organizations skip straight to let's move forward. We are in a crisis, we are losing 10 people, let's move forward. And that one doesn't build trust. And the moment trust is broken, then there's no reconciliation between the good intention of the organization of the cash flow and the those that I would say survive the layoff because even those that stay, they have no space to narrate their experience, what they've seen, what they've gone through. There is more of a mechanical thing and this big talk about let's move forward. The organization change, the alignment will be a three month process four phases, whatever the theory they use, but let's move forward. There's no space. What is this doing to us as a people? Again, as human, it's not about positions, it's about people. It's about people who are losing their identity. We know very well, very few of us are able to make an introduction about who we are without mentioning who we work for, which organization we belong to. And so what you mean when you are telling somebody we are going who downsize by 20%, the people are wondering, how do I show up at my kids' soccer club? How do I introduce myself to the new parent? What is my identity? There's an identity that people have worked on. 10 people that have lost income whose lives are going to change, and this has nothing to do even with the collective societies about how do I pay my bills, my mortgage. I wish they would move to a point where there is a space to talk about how layoff is impacting people, not moving forward, you know, a sense that brings dignity. And it's not about sugarcoating anything that is going on. There is layoff, there is layoff. However, telling the truth about what happened and why out loud to the people that are affected brings a sense of dignity. So, The reconciliation without truth is just a silence with better branding. That's all it is. So you can't say you're going to build a stronger team that has never known the truth. Was it mismanagement? Was it change of priorities? Why me, not the other person? When there's no truth, people will always speculate. And by the way, from a mentor point of view, those that stay in the organization, to live with longer term mental health issues than those that would live because they get a closure as they move forward. Those who stay take much longer to settle into the new norm. That is because the deliverables and the mandate, particularly like in the humanitarian organization, do not change. Their expectations go much higher. Plus the uncertainty where, again, if you think about the humanitarian organization where job security is never a thing. The longest appointment you get is one year or at most two. Now, the fact that you do not know what the next phase will be because it's very much dependent on donors and what is expected of you does not go down. And there's also the phase that comes before you know who is leaving and who's staying where everybody's actively looking for a job. So, there's disengagement. Now we are trying to reconnect to an organization or to reconcile where there is absence of truth. If the truth is missing, forget about reconciliation. The silence doesn't help in building organization of resilience and performance.
speaker-0: This is an important message. So organizational leaders could learn from the truth and reconciliation work that has been done in Africa, also applying positive psychology into these situations more consciously, not just haphazardly or depending on the manager's capabilities themselves. That's a really, really interesting perspective. Thank you. And you know, of course, I mean you by the by the nature of your background, you've studied positive psychology, which is you know, strength based and flourishing based, but you've also seen the hard realities in the field, the actual trauma and and ⁓ you've lived through some of those. So how do you hold those two perspective? What makes you such a spokesperson for positive psychology?
speaker-1: You know, I've seen many aspects of what working in a humanitarian organization can. In areas where I would say there's absolutely nothing and in another area where there is everything. But in all areas, I just realized that a person can be traumatized and resourceful in the same breath. It's not really exclusive that... somebody is broken and has nothing to offer or somebody is absolutely okay and has no issue. So my job isn't to decide whether that's an area of broken people. It's to ask what is it that is present that needs strengthening to hold up and maybe even be better. Given that the fact that some of those things are environmentally organization, they are not able to change. But Even in that area from a positive psychology point of view, I would like, what is it that is actually working? Everybody has something that works. If you focus on what works, the strength of a person, their weaknesses are going to catch up by themselves. They will be able to. The more we point out what doesn't work, that's what we feel. And feeding the negative aspect. of individuals just breaks them up. It doesn't make the organization any better. So in essence, know, the strength-based perspective that they take is not about pretending that everything is okay. As WHO say, it's health is not about the absence of disease. Neither does positive psychology suggest that everything is okay. It's about refusing to let the wound be the story. The wound is part of what is in your body, but the wound is not the full story.
speaker-0: We're so much more than our wounds. And we all have mental health that fluctuates. So I think that it's also what you're saying is very true that it's not just fixed you're either okay or you're not okay. But we do have a very black and white thinking in the world still, even despite of all the knowledge that we have about mental health. You've also written about mental health literacy among managers as a protective factor for whole teams. So if you were able to install one quality in all managers or one new capability in every manager, what would it be? And why that one?
speaker-1: We get people who go to management without management skills and organizations do invest to develop those capabilities, those skills. But the human aspect of leadership and management tends to be missing in some respects. So if I could restore one capability in every way, that would be notice early, respond like a human, not as a clinician, not as a bystander, but just as human. If managers can be human and be able to say, ⁓ this is happening, let's talk about, please, what about your child? Do you have any? What does it mean to be in a foreign country, for example? The human aspect that we usually have, it doesn't mean that you become a clinician. Actually, as a psychologist, I hate it when people try to position themselves as clinicians. No, managers do not need to be clinicians. I would simply say the most important thing, they can be human. As simple as like that. Not people who are looking at what are the inputs in the dashboard, what about the KPI, are we hitting our targets? Then the workplace will become better on a day-to-day basis.
speaker-0: That goes back to what you were saying about those Tanzanian students, or even I believe the Maasai as well that you were studying. It's like that community. And in today's world, in in let's say international organizations or people who don't necessarily live and work in their own countries, those communities are often there or could be their teams or could be their departments. If we develop a little bit more of of the understanding of how human connection works. I mean, team is a protective factor. Good manager is a protective factor for our well being. And the belonging is also very different. So you can belong to a team and not to an organization. And which is, I think, happening more and more as people are losing perhaps their faith a little bit in the organizations and the future is uncertain. So the team can become the anchor in turbulent times.
speaker-1: Absolutely. And that's where the human aspect of a manager to create such a space for people to relate at a personal level. Is this saying that your colleague is not your friend, which has its own merit, but as long as both of you relate as humans, then that is good because you're not strangers either. And when we talk about the protective factors, you know, the community aspect, it's about somebody has your back. you know, and it doesn't need to be friendship. In the 2000s, we said the future of work is remote. Two years later, we said, no, no, the future is hybrid. Now, you know very well, all big organizations come to the office four times a week or three times a week. And you know what is what saddens me? What you see in the corridors in those open office is premium noise counseling headphones. no human connection. Everybody has their headphones on, so the presence itself does not even build a sense of community or belonging. Again, the aspect of organizational success is to invest in making sure that people are human.
speaker-0: Also that we actually do the preventive work and not just the band-aid work when the harm has already occurred, which I think also you and I have talked about this in other contexts, and I think that it's it's a really important one that we focus more on the prevention, a real prevention, rather than the ⁓ trying to do damage control when the stuff has already happened. Is are there things that have changed in your vision of the human being since you started your career? Are there things that have been strengthened? Are there things that you've changed your mind?
speaker-1: There are a of things that have changed and they keep on changing. My initial move was if individuals are well enough, the organization will follow. Now, nearly 10 years into the same function, I think it's the other way around. The organization decides how much of that wellness will actually reach an individual. The top leadership have to decide how well its employees will be. But that has been a big shift, not about individual focus, but rather the communication.
speaker-0: I think that that particular perspective is shared by many who have been working in this space for a little bit longer. And I think that we are luckily moving a little bit towards that, but we are not there yet. It's not being integrated in all organizations or it ten it can be more cosmetic than actual practice. And I ⁓ my hope is also that it will become more a a staple in organizations. So To wrap up, if there's one thing that you would like the listeners to take away from this conversation, what would that be?
speaker-1: The organization that you earn trust in the next decades are the ones that are willing to tell the truth before they ask people to move on. Whether it's ugly, whether it's whatever that it is, reduction of rumors, reduction of mistrust, those that are willing to tell the truth, their dreams are the ones that earn the trust and will be more attractive. in excess.
speaker-0: Thank you, Jean-Vier. That's a loud and clear message to leadership. It was really a pleasure to have you, and I hope that we'll can carry on these conversations, more of these conversations in the future. Thank you, Jean-Vier. That's all for this episode of Inner Work. If this conversation resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen and pass it along to someone who could use it. Remember, small shifts inside create big changes out there. Until next time, keep doing the inner work.
speaker-1: It's a pleasure to be with you, Susan. Thank you for having me.
speaker-0: So your career has crossed really continents and roles. What's the true line that connects all of it for you?
speaker-1: That's correct. I have had the pleasure of working in different contexts in academia, in business consulting, and in employee health and well-being across organizations. I've had the pleasure of working in Tanzania, in South Sudan, in South Africa, and currently based in New York. And to me, I've really never left the classroom. I've not left research. I've not left my private practice. I've just moved the desks in different institutions and the question has always been the same. It's about the person that belong, you know, identifies with that institution. How can we be supported to reach potential flourish even more? So irrespective of whether I was in a classroom teaching undergrad and when I moved it focused on research or more complete job of academia. to the humanitarian organizations. I always think it's just the desk that I move with, with the same notes, the same question about the person who is there.
speaker-0: Yeah, and you describe your work as humanizing workplaces. And I've seen you do that in practice, but can you describe to the listeners or what that means for you and you know, what are the things that you try to shift or where do you start in an organization?
speaker-1: That's quite an interesting question. And I think it's in the name. It's about valuing the human. It's about the culture change where we shift from treating people as functions, but as individuals who define our organization. First by fixing the policy, then let the culture follow, not the other way around. When we humanize the workplace, we are talking about redesigning how we think about the workplace. We are not talking about training. We are just saying, let's shift and focus on the past and their well-being. And that will actually pay off for the organization to be able to reach its goals. And one point that you may think about, just get in an organization where the people are depressed, or unhappy, or resentful, and see how such organizations perform. how people work out of business because of how people are treated. And that's the whole idea that we can't value functions over who holds that function. So the job title itself is meaningless, but the person who holds that title is what is important.
speaker-0: You have studied positive psychology and like we said earlier in the introduction, you have even contributed to positive psychology research. I know that your doctoral research in Tanzania found most students were flourishing and not just coping. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? I think we could all do a little bit more with flourishing. If you don't mind just explaining what flourishing is.
speaker-1: This comes at the bottom of positive psychology as a science. You know, shifting from this, this model. So focusing on what is it that really makes people function. In essence, no interest in the wrong things in the disease, but rather about the power, the sense of optimism, the sense of having meaning in life, the idea of having value, what it looks forward for tomorrow. And when I conceived my doctoral research with the well-being of students in Tanzania, which was part of my work at the time, my job was, I was a Dean of Students of one of the small Christian universities in Northern Tanzania. And I had been interested actually in why do people drop out. That was the bottom line because that was more on my performance plan. I need to keep people on campus. But The more I looked at it and compared it during the retreat, I realized, wait a minute, we have very low dropout rate compared to universities in South Africa, compared to universities in Europe. And I'm like, these people barely make it from a GDP point of view. And yet they stick around. They don't drop out. They look happy. The existing general population data about prevalence of depression or major stress. is very low compared to those that have everything, if you will. What is the thing? So that was the genesis. And I wanted to know what is it that makes them flourish? What is it that makes them stick on campus as compared to other people completing their degrees within the four years with a higher percentage as compared to the Western world where the degree would be completed in five, six, seven years and sometime many years after that. And so, to that regard, my students weren't just copying, they were flourishing. And they did not look at that as a personal achievement because again, a big shift. They did not see themselves as individual, they saw themselves as a collective. And so, one of the protective factors that kept them in school that made them smile. even if they had less material was the sense of belonging, the fact that they just see themselves as a collective. And so from a positive psychology assumption of individualistic approach, my realization was that when it comes to community, there is nothing that beats a sense of belonging, having a shoulder to lean on and even taking the action of going to school as a family business. So my degree, it's the pride of my family. I'll be the first to graduate. You carry really the vision and the life of the community. That was the motivating thing. And I was like, wait a minute, to make it and to succeed and to flourish has nothing to do with the individualistic approach. And so that was actually my launch pad to try to figure out what is it that is going on in the global South. particularly within the indigenous communities where there is race research. And yet you customize, you make sure that the research is relevant to the community so that there is no bias. You measure and you find low levels of depression. Their mental health is in-tie. And you try to ask a person at individual level, they can't think of themselves as one. It's always us. And that is the embodiment of It's not me. This is a family thing. We all own it. And if I drop out, it's the whole family that has failed. Of course, that comes with some sense of pressure, necessary enough to prepare forward. So in essence, I did not really reject the individual model that has informed the Western psychology. But I think in my research, throughout for my PhD and the postdoc I did afterwards and more studies I do even now, I think I've been able to translate it into the context of Africa. That one is not one person, it's one community. It's really about a collective view, which defines what we do, the norms and the values.
speaker-0: Interesting. Would you say is it all sub Saharan Africa share the same or are there regions or can we generalize this to Africa or Sub Saharan Africa?
speaker-1: I've been inclined to generalize in that regard, particularly when you think about communities where the nuclear family is not a stronger point. Our family is defined in a way that is extended. You find communities where you visit by the second visit, your host introduces you as a brother or a sister because you've already crossed the line of being a stranger. You're already in and it means literally you're in. And in those communities where they still see the us, you're one of us. We're gonna sit on a mat. We can't serve you alone. We cannot eat alone. We will not walk alone. You need two people around you. It's nothing that they are treating you in any special way because you're an outsider. It's just how they treat each other. You're never alone, in a sense. And the communities I would say most of the southern Africa would identify. There's of course the cost of urbanization where the migration from the rural areas tends to disconnect and really dismantle the fabric that made people belong into the larger society. When you think about collective responsibilities, an example, when I grew up and I was growing up, I knew that during school hours, if I was to be found on the roadside, any adult would question me and hold my hand all the way to the head mask, whether I knew the person or not. But now, in the urban setting, that wouldn't happen. You know, stranger danger type poverty. But before, any adult would have responsibility over me. And the same would be true, like cooking meals, for example. growing up and this is even still true in the urban area, you think about countries like Rwanda, Tanzania, you never cook the exact meal of the people in the household. You're always expecting somebody may show up and eat food. Even if nobody shows up a year, you still need to have an extra plate, an extra portion which will be used for the following day. But that's not what it's meant for because there's no appointment to visit. People belong, they walk in. And that does become, you know, the protective factors. When you bring the urbanization, then there's a shift where those in the urban areas in the major cities like Johannesburg, like Nairobi or others, they will start scoring very much a profile that is more Western. But still, those that hold those family lines, not necessarily family by blood, it's a family by a sense of belonging. they would still score much better and have a societal identity as opposed to the Western society.
speaker-0: There's such an important message there for Western societies as well. Because we know that collective protects our mental health and well being. I mean, your research shows it clearly, we know it that from biology. And yet we have been encouraging people to be very individualistic and do just the opposite of what our biology needs and what we as social beings also need. So what you're saying is in essence that it would be good to reverse this trend and learn a way to cultivate that connection.
speaker-1: One of the most researched concepts on longevity of humankind from all cultures is a sense of belonging. Those who have people that they count on and count on them, they can lean on. That's the most known protective factor that leads to longevity. And it's not about reversing anything, but I think it's high time. that we really think about intentional connection. When we are able to look at our phone book or our Facebook friends and be able to say, I've got 4,000 followers. If I went offline for two weeks, how many will actually make every single effort to figure out what happened? Or how many people do reach out irrespective of whether I'm off or on? Who knows about me? because you can be lonely in a crowd of people. And if that is something that anybody feels, then intentional connection, you know, where you move from general acquaintances and invest into personal relationship. wouldn't say you need 10 people, but you definitely need bank on solid connection. Friendship with no benefits. It's not about I will be helped to get a job. It's just a neutral connection and it's to start when we intentionally invest in relationships as much as we invest in anything else. It pays good dividends, trust me.
speaker-0: Yeah. I have observed this in my work, working with people from Sub-Saharan Africa, and some of the best managers that I have seen have actually come from Sub-Saharan Africa. And you're just giving me food for thought of why that is, because there seems to be a an understanding of how you take care of people, which is very different from some other cultures. This is not to say, you know, it's these things are never black and white. It's not that one culture is better than the other. But there could be some cultural elements in in especially this ability to take care of people and see the human, humanizing workplaces while also delivering good results. And you know, your work, which is very, very interesting, has also touched upon the South Africa's truth and reconciliation process, like as applied positive psychology at national scale. So what can organizations learn from it about repair and dignity and rebuilding trust after Han? For example, now that many organi international organizations are going through big layoffs or other turmoil and big changes, so those things go out of the window very quickly. What can we learn from that process in your opinion?
speaker-1: Interestingly, the Truth and Reconciliation Move of South Africa came to also inform the reconciliation efforts in Rwanda, where it comes from. And there's quite a parallel. And how it all starts, it doesn't start with forgiveness, where people have resentment and they just choose to forgive an organization or the other person. It always starts with a testimony. What tends to happen is that such testimonies in organizations are skipped. How the layoff is impacting me at personal level, there's no space in organizations to do that. And organizations skip straight to let's move forward. We are in a crisis, we are losing 10 people, let's move forward. And that one doesn't build trust. And the moment trust is broken, then there's no reconciliation between the good intention of the organization of the cash flow and the those that I would say survive the layoff because even those that stay, they have no space to narrate their experience, what they've seen, what they've gone through. There is more of a mechanical thing and this big talk about let's move forward. The organization change, the alignment will be a three month process four phases, whatever the theory they use, but let's move forward. There's no space. What is this doing to us as a people? Again, as human, it's not about positions, it's about people. It's about people who are losing their identity. We know very well, very few of us are able to make an introduction about who we are without mentioning who we work for, which organization we belong to. And so what you mean when you are telling somebody we are going who downsize by 20%, the people are wondering, how do I show up at my kids' soccer club? How do I introduce myself to the new parent? What is my identity? There's an identity that people have worked on. 10 people that have lost income whose lives are going to change, and this has nothing to do even with the collective societies about how do I pay my bills, my mortgage. I wish they would move to a point where there is a space to talk about how layoff is impacting people, not moving forward, you know, a sense that brings dignity. And it's not about sugarcoating anything that is going on. There is layoff, there is layoff. However, telling the truth about what happened and why out loud to the people that are affected brings a sense of dignity. So, The reconciliation without truth is just a silence with better branding. That's all it is. So you can't say you're going to build a stronger team that has never known the truth. Was it mismanagement? Was it change of priorities? Why me, not the other person? When there's no truth, people will always speculate. And by the way, from a mentor point of view, those that stay in the organization, to live with longer term mental health issues than those that would live because they get a closure as they move forward. Those who stay take much longer to settle into the new norm. That is because the deliverables and the mandate, particularly like in the humanitarian organization, do not change. Their expectations go much higher. Plus the uncertainty where, again, if you think about the humanitarian organization where job security is never a thing. The longest appointment you get is one year or at most two. Now, the fact that you do not know what the next phase will be because it's very much dependent on donors and what is expected of you does not go down. And there's also the phase that comes before you know who is leaving and who's staying where everybody's actively looking for a job. So, there's disengagement. Now we are trying to reconnect to an organization or to reconcile where there is absence of truth. If the truth is missing, forget about reconciliation. The silence doesn't help in building organization of resilience and performance.
speaker-0: This is an important message. So organizational leaders could learn from the truth and reconciliation work that has been done in Africa, also applying positive psychology into these situations more consciously, not just haphazardly or depending on the manager's capabilities themselves. That's a really, really interesting perspective. Thank you. And you know, of course, I mean you by the by the nature of your background, you've studied positive psychology, which is you know, strength based and flourishing based, but you've also seen the hard realities in the field, the actual trauma and and ⁓ you've lived through some of those. So how do you hold those two perspective? What makes you such a spokesperson for positive psychology?
speaker-1: You know, I've seen many aspects of what working in a humanitarian organization can. In areas where I would say there's absolutely nothing and in another area where there is everything. But in all areas, I just realized that a person can be traumatized and resourceful in the same breath. It's not really exclusive that... somebody is broken and has nothing to offer or somebody is absolutely okay and has no issue. So my job isn't to decide whether that's an area of broken people. It's to ask what is it that is present that needs strengthening to hold up and maybe even be better. Given that the fact that some of those things are environmentally organization, they are not able to change. But Even in that area from a positive psychology point of view, I would like, what is it that is actually working? Everybody has something that works. If you focus on what works, the strength of a person, their weaknesses are going to catch up by themselves. They will be able to. The more we point out what doesn't work, that's what we feel. And feeding the negative aspect. of individuals just breaks them up. It doesn't make the organization any better. So in essence, know, the strength-based perspective that they take is not about pretending that everything is okay. As WHO say, it's health is not about the absence of disease. Neither does positive psychology suggest that everything is okay. It's about refusing to let the wound be the story. The wound is part of what is in your body, but the wound is not the full story.
speaker-0: We're so much more than our wounds. And we all have mental health that fluctuates. So I think that it's also what you're saying is very true that it's not just fixed you're either okay or you're not okay. But we do have a very black and white thinking in the world still, even despite of all the knowledge that we have about mental health. You've also written about mental health literacy among managers as a protective factor for whole teams. So if you were able to install one quality in all managers or one new capability in every manager, what would it be? And why that one?
speaker-1: We get people who go to management without management skills and organizations do invest to develop those capabilities, those skills. But the human aspect of leadership and management tends to be missing in some respects. So if I could restore one capability in every way, that would be notice early, respond like a human, not as a clinician, not as a bystander, but just as human. If managers can be human and be able to say, ⁓ this is happening, let's talk about, please, what about your child? Do you have any? What does it mean to be in a foreign country, for example? The human aspect that we usually have, it doesn't mean that you become a clinician. Actually, as a psychologist, I hate it when people try to position themselves as clinicians. No, managers do not need to be clinicians. I would simply say the most important thing, they can be human. As simple as like that. Not people who are looking at what are the inputs in the dashboard, what about the KPI, are we hitting our targets? Then the workplace will become better on a day-to-day basis.
speaker-0: That goes back to what you were saying about those Tanzanian students, or even I believe the Maasai as well that you were studying. It's like that community. And in today's world, in in let's say international organizations or people who don't necessarily live and work in their own countries, those communities are often there or could be their teams or could be their departments. If we develop a little bit more of of the understanding of how human connection works. I mean, team is a protective factor. Good manager is a protective factor for our well being. And the belonging is also very different. So you can belong to a team and not to an organization. And which is, I think, happening more and more as people are losing perhaps their faith a little bit in the organizations and the future is uncertain. So the team can become the anchor in turbulent times.
speaker-1: Absolutely. And that's where the human aspect of a manager to create such a space for people to relate at a personal level. Is this saying that your colleague is not your friend, which has its own merit, but as long as both of you relate as humans, then that is good because you're not strangers either. And when we talk about the protective factors, you know, the community aspect, it's about somebody has your back. you know, and it doesn't need to be friendship. In the 2000s, we said the future of work is remote. Two years later, we said, no, no, the future is hybrid. Now, you know very well, all big organizations come to the office four times a week or three times a week. And you know what is what saddens me? What you see in the corridors in those open office is premium noise counseling headphones. no human connection. Everybody has their headphones on, so the presence itself does not even build a sense of community or belonging. Again, the aspect of organizational success is to invest in making sure that people are human.
speaker-0: Also that we actually do the preventive work and not just the band-aid work when the harm has already occurred, which I think also you and I have talked about this in other contexts, and I think that it's it's a really important one that we focus more on the prevention, a real prevention, rather than the ⁓ trying to do damage control when the stuff has already happened. Is are there things that have changed in your vision of the human being since you started your career? Are there things that have been strengthened? Are there things that you've changed your mind?
speaker-1: There are a of things that have changed and they keep on changing. My initial move was if individuals are well enough, the organization will follow. Now, nearly 10 years into the same function, I think it's the other way around. The organization decides how much of that wellness will actually reach an individual. The top leadership have to decide how well its employees will be. But that has been a big shift, not about individual focus, but rather the communication.
speaker-0: I think that that particular perspective is shared by many who have been working in this space for a little bit longer. And I think that we are luckily moving a little bit towards that, but we are not there yet. It's not being integrated in all organizations or it ten it can be more cosmetic than actual practice. And I ⁓ my hope is also that it will become more a a staple in organizations. So To wrap up, if there's one thing that you would like the listeners to take away from this conversation, what would that be?
speaker-1: The organization that you earn trust in the next decades are the ones that are willing to tell the truth before they ask people to move on. Whether it's ugly, whether it's whatever that it is, reduction of rumors, reduction of mistrust, those that are willing to tell the truth, their dreams are the ones that earn the trust and will be more attractive. in excess.
speaker-0: Thank you, Jean-Vier. That's a loud and clear message to leadership. It was really a pleasure to have you, and I hope that we'll can carry on these conversations, more of these conversations in the future. Thank you, Jean-Vier. That's all for this episode of Inner Work. If this conversation resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen and pass it along to someone who could use it. Remember, small shifts inside create big changes out there. Until next time, keep doing the inner work.
