So Whose Private Practice Is This Anyway? Reclaiming Your Authority with Kelly Higdon | IP 212

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You're listening to Ideal Practice, episode number 212.
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Many of you guys may already know Kelly Higdon.
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They and Miranda Palmer have been teaching private practice owners like you guys how to make your business work for you for well over 15 years through their business, which you are familiar with as Zenny Me, which is a name I love, gotta tell you, I love it.
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And they can teach you almost any strategy you need to know.
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These folks are really good.
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But today, today, we're doing something a little different.
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Kelly and I have just met.
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We wanted to hang out a little bit, think out loud, explore the nature of the world as it is changing in our industry.
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And we wanted to talk about what still matters, even now.
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Maybe more than ever.
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This was a really deep, rich, beautiful conversation.
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And we would love for you to join us.
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So stay tuned.
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Hi, I'm Wendy Pitts Reeves, and with over two decades of experience in the private practice world, I've built my six-figure business while learning a lot of lessons the hard way.
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This is the first podcast that shows you how to apply the principles of energy, alignment, and strategy to build a practice that is profit-centered, but people forward.
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This is the Ideal Practice Podcast.
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Hey guys, and welcome back to another episode of the Ideal Practice Podcast.
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This is Wendy, Wendy Pitts Reeves, your host.
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And as always, I'm super excited to be hanging out with you guys today.
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Listen, I want to plug something real quick before I get into today's conversation, which is a beautiful one.
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If you are interested in being a guest here on Ideal Practice, or if you know somebody that you want to recommend, here's how you do it.
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All you have to do is go to my website, wendypitzreeves.com, forward slash guest hyphen application.
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Easy peasy.
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Guest hyphen application.
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All you'll find there is a simple little form that kind of gives me the details up front about who you are, what you represent, what you want to talk about.
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And from there, if we think you are a good fit or we are curious about hearing what you've got to say, we'll reach out.
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Okay.
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You can you can do this yourself, you can pass it on to a friend.
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It's not super formal, it's just it sort of helps speed up the process.
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So I would love it if you wanted to do that or if you know someone who wants to do that.
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Y'all know the kinds of things I'm always looking for to talk about here.
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Anything related to private practice, whether it's head and heart, mindset strategy, what's going on inside your head, or what's going on at your desk.
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Lots of different ways to approach things.
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But if you'd like to be a guest, don't be shy.
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I don't bite often.
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I wanted to mention that real quick before because I tend to forget that, and it's important, and I want to do a better job of telling you all about that.
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All right.
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Now let's get to today's guest.
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Oh, this was a good one.
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So, Kelly Higdon, licensed marriage and family therapist.
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She thinks that the conversation that therapists avoid most often is the one about whether therapy is even working.
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And as co-founder of Zenny Me and co-creator of the Business School for Therapists, they have spent 20 years teaching 20 years, guys, 20 years teaching clinicians like you and me how to measure those outcomes, how to talk about them honestly with clients, and how to build up, build practices that hold up financially because of it.
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Okay.
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Kelly has co-authored a book called Therapist Burnout and Beyond the Hour.
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They co-host Starting a Private Practice, which is their podcast, and they have reached more than a hundred thousand clinicians worldwide.
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They believe, and I talked about this in the in the conversation because I felt like this said so much.
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They believe that private practice is one of the solutions to access, not a barrier, y'all.
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One of the solutions to access, to mental health support.
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And that therapists being the worst paid master's degree out there is a fixable problem, not a fact of life.
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I love that.
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So this was a deep and wide-ranging conversation.
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It was so cool to hear what Kelly had to say because so much of it mirrored what I think myself and fit in beautifully with what my own experiences have been.
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So I thoroughly enjoyed this, and I hope you do too.
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So without further ado, let's get in to the interview.
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All right, everyone.
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Welcome back to Ideal Practice.
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You've already heard a little bit about our guests today.
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So let's go ahead and bring them on board.
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So say hello, Kelly.
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Welcome to the program.
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Hi, thank you for having me.
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You're very welcome.
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I'm I'm really excited about talking to you.
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I told you I had heard about you like years ago on another podcast and have always like, I really want someday I want to talk to her.
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Yeah.
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And there you are.
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It's funny, it all in its right timing, right?
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Yes, very much so, very much so.
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So I like to start with my favorite question in the whole wide world, which has nothing to do with podcasting, but I like to know where people are in the world.
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So tell folks that.
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And then who do you serve and how do you serve them?
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Which I think is a variety of ways, actually.
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I am in sunny San Diego County.
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I'm in the north part of the county in California.
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I am a former therapist, had had a private practice who now serves therapists who are building their practices and their businesses and finding ways to improve mental health care in their communities.
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And I do that with my business partner, Miranda.
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She's my best friend, family now.
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And we've been doing that since 2010 together.
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Long time.
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A long time.
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Yeah.
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You guys were sort of early to the game in terms of podcasting and business coaching for therapists.
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Yeah.
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There are a few that have gone before us, like Lynn Grodsky.
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I'm blanking on names right now.
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But uh yeah, there is a few.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Well, so you and I, we were talking about like, what do we want to talk about?
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We could talk about so many things because we do a lot of similar things, right?
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Yeah.
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But I thought, based on our conversation before, like, let's just sort of, I think I told you I've been very conscious lately of how long I have been in the field.
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You have you have been doing this longer than I have, but I have been I've been running a private practice for I've I hesitate to say how long, and have been working in mental health for like almost 40 years for real.
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I say own that number.
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Yeah, for real.
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I'm trying.
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I'm working on that.
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That's my personal work.
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Yeah, I've been around a long time.
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So what's it to you?
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There's value in that, yeah.
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Yeah.
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So talk to me about like what made you want to talk about this?
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What are you noticing?
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What's on your mind?
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What what what makes this important for you?
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Yeah, I think the part of the reason I reached out to you is like we've never had a conversation before.
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And I'm always I always want to keep the conversation going amongst coaches about what is happening and how can we support therapists better through through the many, many changes.
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And I mean, having coached therapists since 2010, right?
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And I built my practice during the last great recession, you know, watching different shifts politically, economically, socially, and helping therapists navigate that, I feel like we are on a precipice.
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And it's there's a lot of division in the mental health field as to like how we're gonna go about serving our communities since venture capital platforms have come in and AI and these kinds of things.
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And so I just like having the conversation because I am excited in the sense that I believe that humanity and human relationship is our currency.
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Like it is so valuable and cannot be replaced.
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And I think more and more our communities and society is going to value that and see that as like something to seek out over what has been happening because there's gonna be a fatigue, there's going to be like there's gonna be struggles, and we're already seeing it come up, right?
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How venture capital came in, paid therapists a lot of money, now they're taking the money back.
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Yeah.
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Um, and insurance companies are profiting, and you have these conversations about universal health care.
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I mean, it's just really interesting.
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Yeah.
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But when we are private practice owners, we really get to create our own little carve out of safety, like a harbor of doing the work that we love with people that are the right fit, getting great clinical outcomes.
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And I think that that's gonna be more and more valued, even though it's a lot of noise that we're trying to sift through right now.
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I used to have a coach who would say, You think job security is job security.
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You think going to get a job somewhere is that's how you're gonna navigate through a difficult time.
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And she was like, That is so not true.
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Like when you are doing your own thing, you can create in so many different ways.
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You have so much more freedom to adapt and pivot and serve in various ways.
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So yeah, so you just mentioned a couple of biggies, AI, yeah, venture capital.
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So that's like Better Help, Lyra, Alma, those kinds of yeah.
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And then universal health care.
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You talked about that too.
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Oh, a little bit, yeah.
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Yeah, a little bit.
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So what what are you here?
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Like, let's talk about like what are you noticing?
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Because you have a you have a wider pool of people to draw from.
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You've got you've got a gazillion reviews.
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You have been serving so many people really well for a really long time.
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I I feel like I have a decent handle on my little corner of the world, but I feel like you have a bigger splash.
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So tell me, what are you noticing in terms like let's just say in the last six months, or six months to a year, like what's coming up that you're like, oh, we got to pay attention to that.
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Yeah.
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It's kind of not surprising, right?
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That like these venture capital platforms are owned, invested in by the insurance companies.
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It's another arm of profit for them.
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And so now they did the work to attract all the therapists.
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And that's what is different, right?
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When people are starting practices now, they think I'll just join Rula or the headways.
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That's now the path to starting a practice.
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Yeah.
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And it didn't always used to be that way.
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And so those companies now that they've attracted all the therapists, they have enough therapists, according to them, right?
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Then they get to now they have the power, they're gonna lower the rate because they don't need you as much.
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And so we're seeing that start to happen.
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We're seeing AI models being developed off of the sessions from working for these platforms.
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We're seeing, we're seeing more companies holding together and making like, you know, talkspace.
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Consolidating.
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Yeah, talk space, I think, just sold for some astronomical amount.
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There's there's just a lot of people buying up stuff.
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We see this in group practice, right?
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That group practices are being bought up and then shuttered.
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And so they're getting eliminated, right?
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For the competition or whatever.
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And we're seeing actually access to mental health decrease because of some of these companies that are, you know, buying up businesses and stuff.
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So that reminds me of when managed care started.
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You tell me about that.
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I was gonna say, because this is where my my time will come in handy.
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So I had just started my practice, my private practice.
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I was in my early 30s, and I had just started maybe two years before private before managed care started being a word that you heard.
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Right.
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So when I started, like it was the old, old, old school insurance.
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And I I had worked at a psych hospital, a really quality one in my area that back then would keep people for six months, a year, a really long time, to do really good, deep work.
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But as managed care was coming along, the whole thing was you get to be a part of a select pool of people, a small pool of people.
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So we're gonna send you business and pay you well because it means something to be in our pool.
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Not just anybody gets to come on board.
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Like we only take the best people and we and it was a small list.
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Of course, that didn't last very long at all, right?
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That mushroomed.
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But it was the same promise steady business, good pay.
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Of course, that didn't last.
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After a while, it meant nothing.
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It basically came down to like a coupon be in this group or don't get or don't, you don't you're not gonna have clients, period.
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So which I hadn't thought about it, but as you're describing it, like that is exactly kind of what's happening with these again, yeah.
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It's the insurance playbook, it's profitability.
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It's like we are we exist for the shareholders game.
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Like that's that that's the name of the game.
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They're not here ultimately, they have to appease shareholders.
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So yep, yep.
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And it's a matter of scale, yeah.
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Like so, like they have so much more clut such a bigger, what do I want to say, so much more clout to use.
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Right, right, right.
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Trying to think what the statistic is.
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I think it's like 52 billion in profit flash.
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Goodness gracious.
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I can't remember.
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I I don't want to be quoted on it.
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I was like, I have it written down somewhere, but yeah, like they they're profiting, no problem.
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33 billion was like 2024, 2025.
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So, you know, it's just up from there.
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So low fact finder here, those kind of details don't stick with me.
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They made a whole lot of money, it's really bad.
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We should do something else.
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Yeah, yeah.
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You know, it's like you can make money for other people or you can make income for yourself, you know.
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Yeah, so I'm curious in the people that you coach and in your programs, are you seeing let's say well, people who are brand new to private practice just getting started, or maybe people who've been at it for a little while but they're sort of limping along.
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Are you finding that people are leaning heavily on those programs to build?
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Or is it like a it's a kickstart, but then they're moving back into their own thing after that?
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They want it to be a kickstart.
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The the idea is like, I'll just get started while I figure out how to run the business and then I'll get off.
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And then what happens is there's a paralyzation, right?
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Of like, oh, if I get off, can I really do this?
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Because in some way, we if you think about your own sovereignty and own decision making, when you contract your business to like one of these companies, because that is what you are doing, you're kind of like letting them provide the client, right?
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In a way, and then you have to do you trust yourself to do it.
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And so then there's this like dependency that can kind of happen.
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And what we are seeing in business school, our business school is like we'll coach people that are on these platforms, and I always tell them I was like, you're gonna have a squeeze time where you're doing the marketing, people are calling, but then it turns out you're on their panel.
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Yep, they would have otherwise maybe paid cash for you, but because you're on the panel, so what we see is that what we're seeing now is more people have that squeeze point of feeling like, okay, I'm doing the marketing, I am getting calls, but now they're going on the panel.
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But you have to like kind of prove to yourself that you can get the phone ringing on your own, and then it can kind of build confidence to leave the panel um or leave the platform.
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You know, I think I'm not saying insurance is bad.
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I'm saying pick the ones that align with your financial plan.
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Yeah.
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But I think there is this idea of like, this will just get me started.
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Something's better than nothing.
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It's just another version of that that you know has existed for everyone.
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It's exactly like insurance.
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Like I'll take Blue Cross for a while and then I'll get off of it.
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Maybe not.
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I mean, you and I, when we were talking about doing this podcast, you said something like I'm old school, and I'm like, the new school is old school, like nothing has actually really changed.
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It just it's still the same stuff, just dressed up differently.
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Yeah.
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And so we have the same challenges we've always had, which is learning how to build a business that is not reliant on third-party payers, whoever they are.
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Yeah.
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That's the gist of it.
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Do you find that in your coaching work, like you end up being the accountability partner to sort of help them navigate that change?
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:57.360
Like, we're gonna build this over here so you can let go of that over there.
00:16:57.600 --> 00:16:58.480
Yeah, I think so.
00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:05.680
I think that there's a lot of I well, I also think that the system operates on isolation, right?
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:11.599
So these insurance companies, we're not allowed to talk about what we're getting reimbursed with each other, right?
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.200
It keeps us separated.
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:18.799
And like the way we enact change in our lives is through community and connection.
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:20.400
I don't think it's in isolation.
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:30.960
So whether that be like in our community or with coaching or whatever, I think that knowing that you're not alone is a big part of the process.
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:37.440
And you know, you can create kind of an echo chamber in your head if it's just you.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:49.839
And sometimes I'm not always nice to myself, I'm not always like seeing things, and so having other perspectives, other people's experiences can kind of help guide you into what's right for you.
00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:51.359
100%, 100%.
00:17:52.240 --> 00:18:02.079
Yeah, can you say a little bit more about because the the third party thing like that that is super it's real?
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:07.759
I have I honestly have not put that together until this conversation of like good lord, it is the exact it is the insurance thing all over again.
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.160
It's just it's just you know, it's just an grays instead of earth tones.
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.319
It's just the new style, but it's the same thing.
00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:25.279
But in terms of AI, what you tell tell us a little bit, like fill everybody in a little bit on what you're seeing, how that is infiltrating the world.
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.119
I want to talk about what's really happening versus what we're afraid is happening.
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.279
Yeah, well, we see more AI tools being used in private practice, right?
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:43.200
For documentation, for doing your consults, for like booking things, also on the back end of like managing the practice, the finances, all of that.
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:52.160
Now we're seeing laws develop per state as to like what you have to reveal to the clients regarding the use of AI.
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.519
So, like in California, there's a Transparency Act.
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:02.319
You have to say, like, if you're using AI for documentation purposes, that client has to agree to it.
00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.079
We you now need an AI policy, basically, if you're a therapist.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:13.759
Even if you don't use AI, even if you don't use AI, then you need to state that uh and take a stance of like where you're at.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:21.519
But then what we're seeing is currently AI, you know, it's a language model, so it's still an echo chamber.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:31.680
And we do see I see it like on my Facebook ads and stuff where people are saying, like, I use AI as my therapist and it works better than any therapist.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:36.720
And to that, I have to say, then we have a PR problem and we have a clinical outcome problem.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:43.599
We are not being clear about how we're differentiated, we're not being clear about our clinical outcomes, right?
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:57.039
Because what I know and a lot of these is like I have to tell chat if I'm like, or I I use Claude, for example, if I'm I'm looking at data, I use it for a lot of like marketing data analysis.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:03.920
And I'll tell it, I want you to be strategic, do not placate me, do not think that you have to say yes to me for everything.
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.839
I need you to apply the strategy from this kind of thinking, blah, blah, blah.
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:08.160
Yeah.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.240
Because it'll just keep affirming you.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:11.279
And people love that.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:13.920
I love, I love being affirmed, don't you?
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.920
I mean, but is that is that really what therapy is?
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.240
It's just making you feel good about yourself.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:23.200
You know, there's there's there's gris for the middle there.
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:25.759
Yeah, and gris for the male.
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:33.039
I don't think we're being clear about like how therapy is different than talking to, and that's a new level.
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:34.640
Like, it should be in our assessment.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:36.400
Like, how are you using AI?
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.640
Just like we should be assessing how do people use social media, where do they get their news from?
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.319
Where are they spending their time?
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.880
That's all really good clinical information.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:21:08.799
And now we need to understand like, how are you using AI, having them bring in their chats if they are talking about the relationship issues so that we can like yeah, you know, like there's that happening, and then we are working for companies that are using our data for the purpose of creating AI to serve those clients and replace us.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:18.799
In other words, taking your words, your exercise, your documentation, your experience with your with your clients, and using it to create a tool to knock you out of the game.
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:19.839
Yeah, basically.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:20.240
Yeah.
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:20.720
Yeah.
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:21.119
Wow.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.279
And so, you know, headway is like, oh, we're trained on the largest data set of sessions.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:26.720
Where are they getting that data set?
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:34.480
I have tried to look, so you have to kind of infer that it's coming from the sessions that they have access to.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:34.880
Yeah.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:35.279
Yeah.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:44.160
And I think that it's not, and you know, there's this idea of like, well, AI could be the first level of triage, but you still need humans to behind it and stuff.
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:54.079
Yes, okay, fine, you want to do that, but at the same time, like, what are we trying, what are what are we trying to create as clinicians in private practice?
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:59.599
And how is that set apart from AI and where that fits into the model?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.400
of mental health care in our society.
00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:06.640
Yeah, I think you're talking about something that is like it's a huge blind spot if we're not careful.
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:15.279
When you when you were talking about AI a minute ago as being like so affirming, yeah, it's great to have a a little tool that tells you how awesome you are.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:16.079
Yeah.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:17.519
Don't we all want that?
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:19.440
That's our ideal partner, isn't it?
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:21.680
Always agree with me and tell me I'm great.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:22.960
You're the best ever.
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:25.839
If you just had hands that could wash the dishes, it would be awesome.
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:27.359
Right.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:39.839
That's really funny because I too, I had I have not used AI very much until the last maybe six or eight months or so, but now I am actually leaning into it more heavily from a systems and operations point of view.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:40.319
Right.
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:40.880
Yeah.
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:46.000
And one of the things I had to do early on was say, I need you to challenge me.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:52.079
I need you to challenge my thinking, challenge my assumptions, ask me hard questions, don't just go along with me.
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:55.759
For one, it's annoying because we don't want that.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:59.759
But also because this is the whole point of using a tool like this, right?
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.519
Is to see something I can't see.
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:06.000
But literally, but I'm using it literally for systems, right?
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:08.720
So like how I can make a process better or something like that.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:09.279
Yeah.
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.519
I'm using a lot for this kind of thing.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:21.119
What's interesting, I can see how in fact some of my friends have been we've been talking about how seductive that could be for people who have not been in therapy.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.000
Correct.
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:30.400
I could see it being really dangerous actually because it is so it's so fine-tuned and it's not hard for it for you.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.160
I could I could just see people getting into trouble.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.240
I can't imagine dealing with that when I was a teenager.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:43.119
Yeah I mean like it's this is why we have like AI psychosis and all sorts of things developing and we don't have the guardrails yet really in place.
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:50.720
And there you know there's talk about you know AI then recommending the therapist.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:58.799
I believe that is the great thing of like okay if AI is in our life it's not going anywhere then I want it to recommend the therapist not be the therapist.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:06.480
Yes that's the part where we kind of try to focus on how do we use it to turn it back to benefiting ourselves.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.000
That's a really great point.
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:08.960
Have you had that happen?
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:18.079
Have you had people that refer to you that got your name from yeah me too yeah so SEO now is like it's not just like how do I get on the first page of Google.
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:34.480
It's looking at how do I get AI to to refer me when there's like a high intent for what I do you know so okay so I was I want I was going to go into we can talk about where the world is falling apart and then I was going to go into where the opportunities are right.
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:35.839
Because they're always there too.
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:50.960
So this is perfect for that I actually for the first time just a few months ago had a client walk in the door and when I'm like so how'd you get my name what made you decide to reach out to me and she laughed and she said believe it or not chat GBT and I was like really okay so that's new.
00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:57.279
And what was interesting about it was she had tried to do a search through all the usual ways.
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:06.799
Nothing was landing and she said I got so frustrated I didn't know what else to do so I went to chat and went okay so this is what I need somebody who does this and this and this and this and this.
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:18.240
And chat spit out three names and mine was the first and she never even looked at the other two and what was interesting about that on my side was that that particular person is as as close to an ideal client as I could imagine.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.799
Like it really was like oh this is good the work is good.
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.200
It is a really good fit and that I was like that's a whole new way of thinking about this.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:46.960
Yeah yeah I love that I think that's why you got to be super clear the if you're really worried that AI is going to take over or whatever you just got to be super clear about who you are and what you do and how special it is like yes and be more specific and not so general.
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:56.240
And then that's going to lead to more clarity and easier decision making on the person part as they're looking for a clinician and deciding to work with you.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.720
I find in my own coaching work that that's one of the hardest things for people.
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:07.759
It's it's astonishingly difficult for folks to get crystal clear about who they really want to work with.
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:21.039
And I'm not even meaning necessarily like a niche necessarily although that can help but just like yeah this is who I am and this is what I'm about and this is what I care about and this is what I want to do in the world and I want to speak about it with authority and clarity.
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:24.799
It's very difficult I find for folks to get there.
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:31.440
So tell me more about what you're seeing like besides that like what's the good stuff here?
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.680
What are the opportunities that you're noticing?
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:44.799
Yeah I think too like with insurance you know cracking down on session length and things like that we're seeing more intensive work come out of the woodwork which I really really love.
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:53.920
Yeah it's not for everybody but it's a way to do the work where you for a lot of clinicians are getting better clinical outcomes from it.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:27:45.519
It's a different way of working with your nervous system in session because you're kind of more focused on one thing for a long time and then you can have bookended breaks at the the days that you're you're not doing an intensive there's lots of ways to do it more extended sessions versus all day, half day multiple day all sorts of different ways to do that I'm seeing more when it's like have you ever heard that blue that blue ocean book you know it's like yeah so you're finding your blue ocean well now you know the coral reef and the sharks have encroached upon where we were hanging out and we gotta go find explain that to people who have not heard that concept yeah so the blue ocean concept is sort of like this you want to be in the blue ocean not the red where everyone's feeding and there's a lot of chaos and everyone is in that space in the ocean.
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:51.440
You want to float where it's crystal clear and this is your little area and no one's coming in it.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.680
You know like how do you stand out?
00:27:53.920 --> 00:28:16.319
And I think that as companies and you know and marketing dollars get put out there, we can rail and be angry and yes I believe in advocacy I believe in lobbying and all of that and it can challenge us what we might need to respond to is like am I clear on who I am and how I am different and what I am doing and creating my own blue ocean.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:49.039
And so that's why intensives you know like insurance is like this is how you're going to do a session this is how it's going to be this is how you're gonna you know like Rula's adding in you have to track symptomology and if they don't hit a certain number then they're not going to get more sessions you know this kind of stuff you know you're playing a different game but it when you do intensives you get to be creative and really thoughtful do your highest and best work you know I think that's what that squeeze does is it can force us to be more creative and to think outside the box.
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:53.920
We're seeing a lot more you know work in the psychedelic space as well for that reason.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:15.920
You know, while I would say in the US there's a resurgence in policy and people are trying to push through more psychedelic therapy the integration work and stuff like that we're seeing more clinicians do that with CAP and right it's like creating the services that are actually way more fun and way more aligned.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.079
I think that that's the opportunity.
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:21.599
You know what's okay I really want to I want to highlight this for a moment.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:30.559
When you're talking about intensives psychedelic integration you're talking about stepping out of the third party payment control structure.
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:48.960
So finding ways to offer your services that people are going to pay for directly right because you're not playing that game I always have a little bit of a reaction to these kinds of conversations because it's been so long since I've had to play that game that when I start hearing it I'm like oh gag oh my like it's almost a visceral reaction.
00:29:49.119 --> 00:30:08.400
I haven't I haven't had to jump through those hoops in a in a really long time and just I have an almost like oh hell no yeah yeah so what you're saying is that you know when when the control which is the piece here that I think I really want people to hear.
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:17.680
Yeah I okay so I read a book a long time ago called how to so funny how this is working out Kelly I read a book called How to Break Free of Managed Care.
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:24.960
Oh cool how to break free of managed care and it was like the go-to book in the early 2000s.
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:28.880
So managed care started showing up early 90s.
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:43.839
Yeah uh right by by early 2000s it ran the world right and then the thing was to how to get out of it was basically how to get off of insurance is what the conversation was but yeah but one of the and I don't remember the author's name but it was a book that everybody I knew was passing it around.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:31:14.079
We were all like oh yeah have you read that have you read that you got to read that and one thing I remember from that book that has stuck with me that's relevant to this conversation was the author said that insurance as a concept didn't really show up until somewhere in the 50s after I want to say after the Korean War somewhere in there and that it before that healers doctors and patients negotiated directly with each other right I'll bring you my chickens and I'll give you a pig if you'll treat my wife whatever.
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:29.039
And they became poor profit in the 70s okay okay you may know more but what I remember the him this guy saying was that the minute we gave the power of payment to somebody else whoever controls the dollars controls the work.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:33.200
Yeah whoever controls the dollars controls the work.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:32:47.119
Yeah right Miranda adapted the power and control wheel to the insurance system oh really um I'm gonna pull up real quick just to kind of go over because if you know that power and control wheel for one you use for domestic violence yeah that you use right so what do we see we see like coercion and threats how does that look with insurance it looks like audit threats panel termination and mandatory arbitration is leverage recruitment letters there's corporate and political power with the lobbying happening emotional abuse lots of gaslighting with denied claims requiring like a lot of hoops just hoping you'll give up isolation you know gag clauses we're not allowed to talk about things they minimize deny blame how they use our clients against us how the patriarchy is involved with like we're reimbursing feminized mental health labor far below other healthcare specialties and we look at our field you know and then the use of economic abuse right like clawbacks taking six to 12 months to pay a clinician for work done you know like there's just so much power and control in the system.
00:32:47.680 --> 00:33:35.680
Wow and to those that are listening who are listening and are like but I'm in this system and I want to be in the system for accessibility I think there's lots of ways to do it where you can create accessibility without it but if you feel like that's a privilege to be off of insurance I would say for some people it's a privilege to be able to accept the kind of payment that they give you get to decide but you you get to you make it your decision like coming from a place of really knowing what's right for you because then that makes all the difference in terms of like your power like okay I'm gonna work with blue cross boot shield only this plan because of the reimbursement rate and I can then charge a higher rate for my cash pay to supplement that you get to decide that for sure.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:34:00.160
But we're talking about a global impact or at least a national impact on mental health care and it it is looking different and the mentality of clinicians being like oh if I want to start I just get on a panel but now it's I get on a platform and then maybe I move to my own panel and then maybe I move off of that we've just added another cog in the wheel of the system that we're that we've been kind of swept up in.
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:04.559
Okay you just said about 10 things I really want to really want to make sure we're sorry I'm sorry.
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:06.000
No it's so good.
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:10.079
It's so good I'm I'm I'm trying to hold it in my head because I don't want to lose it.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:18.400
No, it's great Kelly I love this I it's really important for me that people hear what you're saying because I don't want to gloss it over.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:43.519
I want this to land okay so first of all for the folks who are listening who are not therapists who may not know this when you're talking about the power and control wheel y'all this is a standard diagram that a lot of therapists are familiar with that basically is the role the pattern of an abusive personality a battering personality it's all it's the cycle that those folks go through right then those relationships and it's very familiar to those of us in the field.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:52.559
And to hear you apply those stages to insurance is like oh my gosh that's freakishly accurate and I had never thought about it that way.
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:53.519
So that's huge.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:35:04.800
I just want to kind of like oh wow okay second thing you said that stood out to me is something about the feminization of this industry and the lower pay that comes with it.
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:19.199
And then the third thing you said was that if you feel like accepting self-pay is an act of privilege it's also in a way privilege if you can afford to take the discounts that these paying platforms offer.
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:22.960
Because honestly you can't unless you're willing to see 30 or 40 people a week.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.039
So so there's a way to think about that.
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:40.400
And then one final point to that I had a a coaching client one time a physical therapist actually said to me I'm always going to take at least one insurance Wendy I I and she takes the one that is most relevant most prominent in her area.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:45.440
She said because it is a it is a value situation to me I want I feel like it's the right thing to do.
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:49.280
I'm like that's great just make lots of money other ways so you can afford to do that.
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:50.079
That's great.
00:35:50.320 --> 00:36:00.960
And when I'm talking to people about a discount you know I don't like the sliding scale idea but when I talk about some kind I will often say if you have if you're on an insurance panel those are your discounted slots.
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:02.320
So you think about that.
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:13.119
Yeah so one of the things that you said in your and that I read in your bio that I wanted to come back to which is this is a perfect segue I highlighted it because it was so good.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:28.400
You said that you believe that private practice is one of the solutions to access not a block a solution to access and that therapist being the worst paid master's degree is a fixable problem, not a fact of life.
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:29.920
Yeah, for sure.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:37:02.800
I love that thank you let's dig into that a little bit how is private practice an a solution to access not a block to it well I think it's like what we're seeing in these things of like psychedelic integration intensives and when you are the person who is determining the services you can determine that based on the needs of your community your own knowing and expertise and we can really create something custom versus what is profitable for a shareholder.
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:14.800
And so we get a lot more freedom and creativity when we own our own business and we run it ourselves and we determine like how do we want to provide mental health care.
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:36.239
I think it's a beautiful opportunity for a lot of us to lead to better and not just doing what we did in the hospitals or in the nonprofit clinics and all the places where we got trained up in this work to really say okay what what how could this be even better?
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:52.000
And I think that's how some of these services are getting developed is just that people are like I'm sitting with a couple that is struggling with infidelity and 45 minutes we're no we need more time there's not enough safety for their nervous systems to relax.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:38:03.119
We need like a couple hours and to be able to do that what a gift instead of saying like oh this is like what some company has determined is right for their profit.
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:37.840
You are speaking my language good I have a I have a I hate I am not a solution focused therapist let's put it that way I can go there but it is not my preference I want to take time I want a deeper richer longer conversation it's why I like podcasting versus the eight minute YouTube videos I used to try to do I I I hated that I I want a longer conversation and if it if it means you have to listen to this over two or three walks that's fine but we're gonna go there right the 45 minute session I hate that I hate it.
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:54.880
I've seen it done well I've been I've experienced it from a a a skilled clinician who knew what they were doing but it is not my preference and when I have been searching myself for a therapist I specifically can you do longer than 45 minutes because that's not helpful to me that's not what I want.
00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:17.920
And what what you're saying is that when you choose to step out of the game step out of the rules step out of the box that these third party platforms are requiring you to play in you have so much more freedom to evolve and create I love that I think that's a piece people forget I really do think that people forget that.
00:39:18.320 --> 00:40:04.719
Can you tell us and this is funny Kelly I did a whole series like a I don't know a year or two ago about creative things to do in your private practice because it's one of my favorite subjects and I had a I interviewed a therapist in New York who I adore who went surfing with clients like surfing and we talked about surfing and exercise classes and dance classes and all kinds of other fun and crazy things talk to us give get can you give people a couple an example or two of where someone who is really worried about stepping out of that found a creative way to offer their services that was palatable and affordable and manageable on both sides on the client side and on the clinician side.
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:15.119
Yeah you'll see this like in group work a lot of the time so you know I have a clinician that I've coached that does ketamine assisted psychotherapy.
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:22.960
But doing it individually and sitting for a dosing session, you know, it takes a lot of time and it can get expensive.
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:32.480
So doing that like in a group makes it more accessible to the client and it makes it it actually makes it easier for the clinician.
00:40:32.559 --> 00:41:01.119
So that way you're you're sitting with three and then there's process that you can do afterward you can process and integrate as a group you can do that like thematically she does it like with women and so I I think like group work for example can be really a beautiful way of and I've been in my own group psychotherapy when I was in my training and it was very impactful and I think a lot of times we don't value it as much as we can.
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:14.159
I think you know I've seen walk and talk therapy I've seen I there's a therapist in our business school that takes people on wilderness retreats and they leave no trace behind.
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:22.880
It's very like backpack and there's a lot of group work in that kind of trip that they take them on.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:53.519
So impactful really amazing I would never do that because I'm terrible at camping but they love they love camping and backpacking and it's so cool to see you know you've seen retreats and things like that created too so it's one to many think one to many to many but I even think in intensive work if you're working with one person it actually can be more affordable in the long run.
00:41:53.920 --> 00:42:11.360
Explain that how how could that be more affordable to someone well like if I'm going weekly for 45 to 50 minutes how many weeks is that going to take me to start feeling the transition or transformation versus if I'm taking one or two days I start feeling that transformation sooner.
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:22.400
I start you know experiencing change more rapidly and the cost of that intensive it might have if I was going weekly it might have actually taken me more sessions and cost me more.
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:26.400
You know there's there's different ways to look at it you have to track your data on it.
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:41.679
I'm not gonna speak to like this is the definitive right you know but but some clinicians are finding like oh I just do spot work with clients they come in every quarter they come in every month and that's all we're doing and they're enjoying it.
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:51.599
It works better for their schedule it's accessible you know for them to plan a day often every week trying to find time in the week you know there's just so many different ways.
00:42:51.920 --> 00:43:00.960
Yeah yeah I had a I had somebody on the podcast early when I first started the show I interviewed a therapist who had just started offering intensives in her practice and it was a new idea.
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:20.000
And one of the things I remember her saying was that for her particular clientele the her focused her focused audience that she wanted to serve they were busy high level corporate folks who had insane lives yeah and that for them it was easier to block off a day or a half day every so often than it was to do this weekly stuff.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:22.400
And it was more impactful for them.
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:29.280
So yeah I love that yeah so you in other words you can write your own rules and you can play you can experiment try things.
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:38.800
Yes I and I think people get nervous about that because we love well for me I like rules because then I know that I'm doing it right.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:44:05.199
You know like I like to know what the rules are and I think some like to break them like Miranda is the rule breaker and I'm the rule follow you make quite the team but I think that in some ways that how how is how do we create it's hard when you're like Forging a path and no one's been there before, and you got the machete and you're cutting it down, but someone's got to do it.
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:06.800
And some of us are meant to do it.
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:12.480
And I think it's just remembering your heart and your ethics of like, you're not here to harm.
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:16.239
You're really trying to seek about like what gives the best clinical outcomes.
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:24.960
This is not just a quick money grab, but it does have to sustain you in order to do this work well so that you can be a good human too and enjoy your life.
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:27.119
You know, there's so much at play here.
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:38.480
But I think we're we are trained with a lot of fear, fear of losing our license, fear of like, you know, the overlords who they may be are watching us.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:41.519
And now we have more with insurance and AI and everything watching us.
00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:44.239
And so it's just like, I don't want to mess up.
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:49.360
But we are creative people, we are creation, we are here to create.
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:56.079
And so I applaud the courage of anyone that owns their own practice because you are creating.
00:44:56.320 --> 00:45:03.760
And there's, you know, yes, there's some basic principles to running a business, but you also get to really make it fit you.
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:15.199
And that can be so countercultural to how we were taught of like, this is how therapy is, this is how you do it, and anything else would be unethical, you know, that kind of message.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:16.400
Which is so not true.
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:27.760
So I was taught that the universal principle that has always guided my decisions as a practice as a practice owner is am I doing this because it's good for the client or is it because it's good for me?
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:32.880
Am I doing this because I I think it's what's best serves this client or because it feels good to me, right?
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:40.239
And I and the message I have been trying to communicate through the podcast is that's not an either-or thing.
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:44.480
Like, what if there's a way I can do this that is good for the client and good for me?
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:46.400
And why can I not use both of those?
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:46.719
Yeah.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:48.400
I think they're both important.
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:53.360
Your point that we are creative is so, so spot on.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:46:00.320
And what I want people to hear that you're saying is there's more than one way to get where you want to go.
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:02.159
You don't have to do it their way.
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:07.920
You can you can you can totally choose to do that, either completely or in part.
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:19.199
But give yourself permission as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, as the CEO of your own show, give yourself permission to do things your way and figure out what your way is.
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:21.199
I just think that's huge.
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:25.920
I uh to me, that's one of the things I love about private practice.
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:27.280
Like it is up to me.
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:28.159
I can do it my way.
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:30.000
And if my way doesn't work, that's on me.
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:30.480
Too bad.
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:31.679
I learned something, right?
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:32.880
But still on me.
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:33.440
Yeah.
00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:34.239
Yeah.
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:39.599
I think a lot of people like you got to think about where you're making those decisions from.
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:59.760
And sometimes we are carrying the projection and the voices of corporate, of legal, of like our ethics, our boards or the ethics committee, and we're holding all that, and we've we are not staying connected to all parts of ourselves, like our heart, mind, body, spirit.
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:15.199
Like, if you look at like I really believe in learning a lot from like indigenous culture and like all the directions and how we are heart, mind, body, spirit, and it is from those all working together that we consciously create.
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:28.000
You are creating, but are you creating from a conscious place or are you hold allowing these other outside institutions and systems to influence your creation?
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:34.400
You know, so it's like, is all of you on the board when you're deciding okay?
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:40.320
I'm fighting so many urges inside.
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:43.920
Yes, let's talk about that.
00:47:46.960 --> 00:48:11.760
This whole what you I think I shared with you that one of the things that has been worrying me a little bit in terms of trends and what I see, which is how we got into the old school conversation, was that I have been struck by how much clinicians who are relatively new to the field, and by that I mean people who are, let's say, five to ten years out of school, okay?
00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:12.079
Okay.
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:24.320
A C T, ART, EMDR, even A I T, which I love, uh C B T.
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.119
There's there's the ones out there I don't even know what they mean anymore.
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:28.719
Like there's so many different things.
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:33.280
This this feeling that you have to be certified and X and so many different things.
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:40.639
You have to have like ridiculous lists of letters after your name to feel like you know what you're doing, first of all.
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:50.800
Or and I also see this in the sort of judgment that I'm seeing some clinicians saying towards others, well, why are they working with children when they're not a child a certified child therapist?
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:54.000
Why are they doing couples' work when they're not certified in Gottman?
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:55.519
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:48:56.079 --> 00:49:03.280
What how do I know that this new method that they're doing that what do you mean they're working with the Enneagram or heaven forbid astrology?
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:07.599
Whatever, tarot, using tarot in your practice.
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:11.360
Like you can, I can make, I can go lots of ways with this.
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:21.679
But what I find myself concerned about, which speaks to what you were just saying about bringing your whole self to the work as a practice owner as well as a healer.
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:32.000
I feel like sometimes we are doing our clients and ourselves a disservice by not recognizing the value and the depth of our whole self that we bring and seeing their whole self.
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:36.320
And all the rest of that to me, it's useful, it's valuable, yes, it helps.
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.559
And there's lots of really great things we can do now to help people feel better faster.
00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:42.079
And I'm all for that.
00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:54.800
But I don't think any of that ever trumps, I hate to use that word, ever takes power over, erases, invalidates the bottom line, which is who we are as humans and how we bring that to our work.
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:56.800
Can you can you preach, Wendy?
00:49:56.880 --> 00:49:57.599
No, you preach.
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:09.840
Well, I'm just kind of curious, like what do you because that's when I when you talk about bringing your whole self to the work, I think you know how the you know how with clients they will slam up into their heads, right?
00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:16.559
And half the time what we're trying to do is get them into their bodies so that they are fully feeling and experiencing whatever it is we're working on.
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:19.920
We have to do that too to be fully present with them, right?
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:24.960
But also as business owners, that's what you're saying that's new here.
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:25.679
Yeah.
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:29.920
Like all of you counts, and it's not because you're certified in something.
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:31.039
Right.
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:39.280
Uh yesterday I had a coaching call with a client and I said, I'm putting you on a certification diet for a year, you're not allowed.
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:42.079
Not that I have that kind of power.
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:43.199
I'm telling you, I love it.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:46.960
Like, please stop because I love it.
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:52.559
Um, yes, there's always more to learn, but not at the sake of negating what we do know.
00:50:52.880 --> 00:51:17.519
And so when we look at like the wisdom of people who have gone before us, and we look at like this indigenous kind of way of there is wisdom in your heart, like the emotions that come up, there is wisdom in the thoughts, there's wisdom in the body sensations, and kind of like the your spirit, like the part of you that draws you towards things.
00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:36.880
There's like this saying of like that I use we've I've learned um in my work with psychedelics and other things of like the mind protects, the heart knows no depth, the body tells the truth, and the spirit is two steps ahead.
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:44.320
And so it's like from those places of like when you're making a decision, like, okay, we'll just take the insurance thing.
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:47.199
Like, how does your heart feel about it?
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:50.880
When you hold that decision, what sensations come up in your body?
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:51.840
What are the thoughts?
00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:56.639
And what are you feeling torn pulled towards or pushed away from?
00:51:56.800 --> 00:52:03.280
Like, where are we really using all of our senses and our awareness and this internal compass that we have?
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:18.880
Because when we don't, when we say, Oh, this is the way you have to do it, because so-and-so said so, we give our power and our sovereignty over, and then we we start the process of resentment in our lives.
00:52:19.039 --> 00:52:25.199
And so this is about being in integrity, authenticity, not I don't want to live with resentment.
00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:34.800
I'm but I've like been working through resentment for like two years now of like all the places, like where are all the little nooks and crannies in my soul that I have this resentment?
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:40.480
It's like, oh, it's where I'm not setting boundaries, I'm not making the decision for me, and I handed it over to somebody else.
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:54.480
And so, as a practice owner, you get to have those decisions put back in your hands, and then sometimes people still like condole it back and they like give it back to somebody else and say, Here, you tell me what to do.
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:54.960
Yeah.
00:52:55.199 --> 00:53:02.400
So yeah, I want y'all to hear what she just said.
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:05.199
What sorry, what they just said.
00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:28.239
Um I want you to notice that that when you made the decision to start your own business, to step away from the agency, the hospital, somebody else's practice, when you made the decision to chart your own course, in that moment, what you did was take your power back into your own hands.
00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:39.280
So be careful, be careful that you hold on to that and that you don't give it away unintentionally to in in ways that perhaps are subtle and seductive.
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:41.840
Remember that the power is yours.
00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:48.320
I have often said that one of the things that surprised me about starting a practice in the beginning, I had no intention of being a business owner.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:50.239
That the word business used to bore me to death.
00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:51.519
Why do I care about business?
00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:54.000
I don't I don't feel that way anymore, but I used to.
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:55.280
I just want to help people.
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:57.039
That's what I was all about, right?
00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:08.239
But one of the surprises to me about private practice was I really did love the fact that if it went well, it was my fault, and if it didn't go well, it was my fault.
00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:15.920
I liked the fact that I owned the responsibility because I couldn't blame it on anybody anymore.
00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:19.760
And that also meant I had the freedom to figure it out.
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.519
And some there are some things that took me a very long time to figure it out.
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:28.000
I mean, thousands and thousands of dollars lost to a lot of painful lessons, right?
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:29.920
I mean, I've had my share.
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.000
I still have my share.
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:34.000
I don't have as many as I used to.
00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:42.719
I it it it took me a while, but but that's like own your power, claim your own your authority is what I always like to say.
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:44.719
Own your authority, claim your power.
00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:50.079
Like you could another way to look at it too is like where are all the places you self-abandon.
00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:56.400
Yeah, so go back to what you talked about, your mind, your thoughts, your body, your heart, and your spirit.
00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:58.880
I really love that framework.
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:01.440
Can you say just a little bit more about that?
00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:08.320
Yeah, I think you know those that that is what makes us us.
00:55:08.719 --> 00:55:16.320
And sometimes we I'll see this a lot, like in coaching.
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:20.960
I had a session this morning and the client's like, I just need to let that go.
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:27.440
And I was like, well, how do you do that when you haven't experienced or felt the emotion?
00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:29.199
It's like bypassing, right?
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:35.119
And you're abandoning this part of yourself that's asking to be seen, asking to be felt.
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:43.679
And then when we abandon that, it festers and it comes up and gets projected into our leadership and to our decision making and things like that.
00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:50.559
And so it's like, I mean, for me, in my process, I've learned I have to slow down a lot.
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:53.679
Like I'm very fast, I want to make a decision, I want to move, move, move.
00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:59.199
But if I that ends up like overriding some of like, oh, what are some of my thoughts about it?
00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:01.119
How do I really feel physically?
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:04.800
You know, all these kinds of things and taking into account the whole picture.
00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:11.280
So to not bypass and abandon does take time and intention and presence, right?
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:16.960
And we're in a world where it's asking for our attention everywhere else except inward.
00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:26.320
You know, we're scrolling, we're looking at like what do we need to be doing, social media, all the stuff and marketing, people marketing to us constantly.
00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:29.679
And it has us questioning ourselves am I doing the right thing?
00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:31.119
Should I sign up for this program?
00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:33.119
Should I do this or whatever?
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:39.599
And when I coach people, I'm like, okay, let's just take a breath and hold whatever the question is.
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:43.360
And then we go through the process of like, okay, what are your thoughts around it?
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:45.039
How do you feel towards those?
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:47.920
And we work through all the different quadrants.
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:58.559
And so, and every indigenous culture has a they have a medicine wheel and it has directions north, south, east, west, and it's heart, mind, body, spirit.
00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:09.920
Now the directions change based on where that tribe or community is, but they all kind of agree upon this kind of way of seeing the world.
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:14.159
We're all connected, and it's from all those directions that we create.
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:14.559
Yeah.
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:16.800
Mouse, eagle, bear, buffalo.
00:57:16.960 --> 00:57:17.519
Yeah.
00:57:17.840 --> 00:57:24.719
That was the system that the treatment center, the last time I had a real job, worked in, that was what it was based on was the medicine wheel.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:25.280
Yeah.
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:25.920
Yeah.
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:27.119
That's a that's cool.
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:28.639
I won't chase that rabbit.
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:32.639
I like what you just said about slowing down.
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:38.320
And I want to, I think I want to come back to this, and then I want to talk about what therapists, what we need to be doing.
00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:42.960
A lot of, I think a lot of folks who are sort of naturally entrepreneurial minded.
00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:48.079
And then there, I I know that there are people who land in private practice who are not, but a lot of us are.
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:51.440
And we tend to be high quick starts, which is from the Colby.
00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:53.039
It's right.
00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:58.000
So we think fast, we move fast, we're like, I don't really know how I'm gonna do this, but I'm gonna do it.
00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:03.519
And it's exciting, it's intoxicating, it's like, here's the next big cool thing I'm gonna do.
00:58:03.599 --> 00:58:04.239
Let's watch this.
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:05.760
I don't know, we're just gonna get it.
00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:24.480
What you're advising or what you're reminding us of is both an important clinical practice as well as a business practice, which is to slow down, stop, tune in, not out, tune in, and check in with those four parts of yourself.
00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:27.360
Your head, your heart, your spirit, your body.
00:58:27.920 --> 00:58:31.119
And make sure you listen to what it's saying.
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:50.719
And I would coming back to my whole thing about all the acronyms, when we are with somebody in front of us, whether it's on a Zoom call or whether they're sitting in our physical office, the more you can do that, the better work you're gonna do, and the more that client is gonna feel it, and the richer the conversation is gonna be, whatever methodology you're dipping into.
00:58:50.880 --> 00:59:00.079
And I want to just I just want to say, people, like, please, please, please, please, please, don't underestimate the value and the importance of who you are as a human being and what you bring to the work.
00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:04.000
Because honestly, I think that matters more than anything else that's out there.
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:05.199
I don't care what it is.
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:05.679
Yeah.
00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:14.880
Like if you look at all the isms of the world, racism, sexism, capitalism, all of it, it's about taking away our humanity and devaluing us.
00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:23.840
So anytime we see ourselves less than, that's actually is that really your belief, or is that the system that you've internalized?
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:24.639
Right.
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:25.280
You know?
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:33.760
So I think you have to slow down and sort all that out because the system wants us to feel devalued so that we stay a cog in the wheel.
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:43.599
But in reality, I think I every person I've sat with long enough that's like fearful making a mistake, fearful doing the wrong thing.
00:59:43.760 --> 00:59:47.920
If we slow down enough, they're like, oh, actually, like I'm okay.
00:59:48.079 --> 00:59:50.079
Like I'm a I'm a good person.
00:59:50.239 --> 00:59:58.159
Like, oh, I see, you know, like, but we just don't take the time and we get all in our head or you know, fearful.
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:06.639
I see you, I see you, and I hear you, I'm with you, and I am I am, and I'm going to also allow myself to be seen and heard, right?
01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:09.039
Yeah, so important.
01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:18.639
And this is also why AI has its place, but it is not going to replace the value and depth of the human-to-human connection.
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:20.000
Nothing's ever gonna replace that.
01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:22.719
Yeah, I mean, maybe it'll replace really bad therapy.
01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:31.679
Find out the same outcomes as like some other therapy, great, then it might replace that, but it's not gonna replace me.
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:32.400
Yeah.
01:00:32.719 --> 01:00:34.880
What do you think folks need to do?
01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:49.599
Like what are in terms of like practices or what are some of the things that that that today's clinicians and practice owners might overlook or forget that can help them stay grounded, stay present, and stay visible in the world?
01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:51.599
Like what what do you what do you think?
01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:53.840
What what do we need to do differently?
01:00:54.960 --> 01:00:56.880
I think community is huge.
01:00:57.199 --> 01:00:58.639
I was hoping you would say that.
01:00:58.719 --> 01:00:59.039
Yeah.
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:00.000
Talk about that.
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:02.239
What kind of community and in what way?
01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:14.639
I mean, it's not just therapists, but it's like having people who you can be vulnerable with and that know, love, and trust you.
01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:24.079
And we have this exercise in business school where we have people send out a strength survey um to all their closest friends and family.
01:01:24.880 --> 01:01:30.880
And sometimes they discover like their inner circle is not very supportive, right?
01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:35.440
And it's like we need people in our corner cheering us on.
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:36.079
Yeah.
01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:36.800
Yeah.
01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:42.239
Probably the person listening here is in someone's corner cheering them on, and it's like, who supports you?
01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:50.880
And sometimes what happens is business owners create businesses to try to solve some of their personal stuff.
01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:56.880
And like, oh, I just do all my networking and my business, and uh that's where I have community.
01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:02.719
But I think you need a life, and then that'll determine what kind of business you create to fit into that.
01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:08.639
And we need people and we need connection far and but beyond just like networking referrals.
01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:13.039
We're talking about like human connection, yeah, it's just so critical.
01:02:13.280 --> 01:02:13.840
Yeah.
01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:15.920
And we need it now more than ever.
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:17.679
More than ever because people don't have that.
01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:22.159
Yeah, I was thinking get out from behind your computers, leave your office and go out to the field.
01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:26.480
Yeah, you and I were talking about how you've been doing like like how you have meetups and stuff like that.
01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:26.880
Yes.
01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:27.679
Yeah, yeah.
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:28.559
So critical.
01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:39.760
When I first started my practice back in the day, one of the things I did to just get things off the ground was I started hosting, I called them networking lunches, but what they really were was I wanted people to meet each other.
01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:46.960
I wanted my primary care doctor to meet the school nurse, and I wanted the guidance counselor to meet this other clinician I knew.
01:02:47.119 --> 01:02:48.960
And I wanted people to know who each other were.
01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:54.719
So I would just like pick a restaurant a day of the week and I'll say, Hey, on Thursday, let's meet at my favorite Mexican restaurant.
01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:56.800
And you, I want you and you and you and you to come.
01:02:56.880 --> 01:03:01.920
And I was specifically in inviting people who didn't know each other but had something in common.
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:03.280
I wanted them to connect.
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:07.440
And I did that pretty religiously for probably the first two or three years I was in practice.
01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:12.559
And what I didn't anticipate, what happened over time was I had a core group that came all the time.
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:16.480
And then other people would drift in and out, and a lot of them ended up joining my practice.
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:22.159
That's sort of how I built a group practice, which was not my intent, but that's what people be like, uh, I want to come work with you, you know.
01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:24.320
Well, okay, let's talk.
01:03:24.559 --> 01:03:26.079
So I did that a long time ago.
01:03:26.239 --> 01:03:29.760
Haven't done that for a long time because I didn't need to.
01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:34.320
And I but I I too miss that connection.
01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:36.320
And honestly, this is really interesting.
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:44.719
If you're if you're just starting out in your practice, you can be so focused on getting your own thing off the ground that you don't have time to talk to other people, you think.
01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:48.639
If you're like me and you've been in it for a long time, it's easy.
01:03:48.800 --> 01:03:53.199
Like I used to think I know everybody because I did for a long time, but I don't anymore.
01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:55.039
There's I used to be the only game in town.
01:03:55.119 --> 01:04:00.320
I ran a large group practice and we were the go-to facility in our town for decades.
01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:01.599
Well, that's changed.
01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:04.639
My little town is blowing up, lots of cool stuff is happening.
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:07.920
The the natives don't think it's great, but I actually think it's pretty cool, really.
01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:10.400
Traffic's worse, but the but the breweries are great.
01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:12.159
All the Californians are coming.
01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:13.679
All the they indeed are.
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:15.440
I had two that joined my practice.
01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:16.000
Yes.
01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:16.320
Yeah.
01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:19.119
Who were finally able to buy a house for the first time in their whole life.
01:04:19.199 --> 01:04:21.599
Yeah, we do have that too.
01:04:22.000 --> 01:04:33.840
But what's interesting is that I have just in the last year or two started hosting, not on a not like I'm trying not to do it real often because I I'm protecting my own energy.
01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:37.519
But maybe once a quarter or so I'm hosting a meetup.
01:04:37.760 --> 01:04:42.559
I've been doing it, I've done it by myself and I've done it with a another colleague who is a friend.
01:04:42.719 --> 01:04:45.199
We've done it at the local popular coffee shop.
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:49.039
Next time we're going to meet at a my favorite little after hours brewery.
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:54.079
We're mixing it up morning and evening, lunch hour, early morning, whatever, seeing what works.
01:04:54.239 --> 01:05:05.440
And what I'm finding is that they are so excited to meet each other, first of all, because everybody, their names are passing, but they don't they don't know the face behind the names or the voice or the body, right?
01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:12.719
And for me, it's allowing me to reintroduce myself to people who don't know me, who've never heard of me, even though I've been around forever.
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:14.400
So it's been a win-win.
01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:19.119
And what I'm finding is that people who don't even normally go to things like that are saying, I really want to come to the next one.
01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:22.800
And it's because we're all hungry for human connection.
01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:25.039
And I don't do it for what it's worth.
01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:31.039
I don't do it like a chamber mixer where you walk around, stand up, and pass each other business cards, which make me sick.
01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:32.000
I want to throw up.
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:35.280
We in my do it, if I can do it, we sit in a circle and we talk.
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:36.400
Who are you and what do you do?
01:05:36.480 --> 01:05:37.760
And who are you and what do you do?
01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:41.679
So it ends up being more like sort of a mastermind than it is anything else.
01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:43.119
But but it's good.
01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:43.840
So you're Robert.
01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:45.119
Yeah, I think about yeah.
01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:48.480
When I moved, I wanted, I needed community.
01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:50.239
And so I joined roller derby.
01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:51.840
And that's oh, I love it.
01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:54.800
Uh how I found um community.
01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:59.760
And those people still refer people to me because they know I work.
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:22.400
therapists and I know a lot of therapists and it's like did I join so that I could get referrals no I wanted something for my life and connection and I was craving that and out of that like there's that also took care of takes care of my business or you know serves in lots of ways like I give back to my friends and you know it's really I community is so so important.
01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:28.079
Yeah yeah I'm gonna tie that to something you said earlier and then we'll start to wrap this together.
01:06:28.239 --> 01:06:35.199
So you earlier you were talking about how important it is that we stay connected to ourselves right our true wisdom our inner self.
01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:56.800
And now you're talking about being connected to other people but we're talking about in real life in real life not through a text not through a text app not even through Zoom as much as I love Zoom and I love the podcast because it gives me a way to meet people like you that I would never meet otherwise but well now when I come to San Diego I'm gonna come look you up.
01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:20.559
Yeah you can yeah please I would love that is easy we'll do that we'll do that or when you come to the smokies but what you are reminding us of is that even though the world is moving at a lightning fast pace and even though it feels like other people are calling the shots they are not we are still in control of our own business and our own life and we just need to remember to tune into ourselves and to each other and we'll be okay.
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:53.760
That's what I'm yeah yeah I think so I mean I I don't want to bypass or say that like there isn't privilege at play and things here but even no matter what you're going through I do believe staying connected to yourself and having people who love you and know you is so important to all to to living yeah life you know period let alone running a business so yeah how you do anything is how you do everything.
01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:57.920
Yeah thank you Kelly this has been this has been a treat.
01:07:58.159 --> 01:08:31.439
Oh it's so nice to chat really thank you for having me you know when I reached out I was just like I want to have a conversation this is not just keep talking about like what's going on is there room for hope here you know like because I can get overwhelmed you know of like what is happening in the world it feels like so much division so much pain and where do I fit in all of that and how do we still speak hope and keep going because our work does matter we matter you know it's important stuff.
01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:36.880
Yeah yeah how do people learn more about you?
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:49.119
Where do they find you if they want to connect with you speaking you can go to our website zinnyme.com oh gosh let's talk about picking a business name that you can spell within what's the story behind that'll be in the show notes.
01:08:49.359 --> 01:09:09.359
It will be I will link it you can just misspell it and Google and it'll come up but we have like over 15 hours of free training we have a free book on therapist burnout it's a top seller in Amazon and we also have another book on intensives if you're thinking about like oh I want to be inspired to be creative.
01:09:09.439 --> 01:09:30.079
There's so much free resources we try to give back you know so you don't ever have to to like just chat GPT your way through building a business but really like get some training from people who have done a lot of people do it.
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:30.319
Yeah.
01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:31.920
Yeah lots of experience.
01:09:32.159 --> 01:09:35.840
Zindyme.com yes I'm sure there's a story behind that name.
01:09:36.079 --> 01:10:22.560
Oh gosh I will link that below in the show notes for sure and y'all when she's talking about free resources like go take take her up on that dig into some of that because this is the voice of experience that you're hearing from from Kelly and yeah dig into that follow them what what's your podcast it's um starting a counseling practice starting a counseling practice that's her that's their podcast so go look in that for sure lots of good stuff there yeah and Kelly I I think you may have already answered this but I'm gonna ask you anyway just in case there's some other little juicy something I always like to wrap up by asking is there anything that I haven't asked you anything we haven't talked about or anything that you just feel called to share that would make this conversation complete?
01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:38.479
I do have to say like I feel a lot of gratitude right now for this conversation for having met you and for the hope you give me that there's good people in the world helping therapists.
01:10:39.039 --> 01:10:41.600
So I feel a lot of gratitude for that.
01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:43.439
So thank you.
01:10:44.479 --> 01:10:45.279
Thank you.
01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:47.840
Yeah there's there's lots of us out there.
01:10:48.079 --> 01:11:08.399
Yeah you and me both and many many more that's beautiful thank you yeah all right guys so I I if you are discouraged if you find yourself feeling frustrated if you also wonder what the heck is going on out there and how the world are we going to make it come back and listen to this episode for sure.
01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:10.159
Come back and listen to this interview.
01:11:10.319 --> 01:11:21.039
But also follow Kelly and Miranda because my guess is that you will find moments of inspiration that are exactly what you need to help you cut through the fog when you don't know what else to do.
01:11:21.199 --> 01:11:22.079
So listen to them.
01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:22.319
Okay.
01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:24.159
And hopefully some silliness along the way.
01:11:24.399 --> 01:11:26.159
And a laugh a little bit of silly yeah.
01:11:26.319 --> 01:11:35.199
We got a laugh I'm telling you that you take your client surfing like what how much better does it get yeah my client would be rescuing me.
01:11:35.359 --> 01:11:35.680
Okay.
01:11:36.159 --> 01:11:40.399
I don't know if that's gonna help them with their hero complex.
01:11:41.439 --> 01:12:05.760
One of the things he said was he had to be conscious that he was in a he was in a wetsuit and how did his client feel seeing him in the wetsuit I'm like yeah let's just don't go there shall we know oh all right everybody that's great this has been a great conversation you guys have an awesome week and I will see you next time right here on the Ideal Practice podcast.
01:12:05.920 --> 01:12:36.560
Bye now well wasn't that a fun conversation yes yes yes it was I loved watching Kelly think as we were talking I could tell she's put a lot of thought into these issues that she has strong ideas about what is right and good but also about what is actually available to us as practice owners and as healers and I really enjoyed digging into all of that with her.
01:12:36.880 --> 01:12:56.000
And I hope some of this rings true for you too I think the thing I I most want you guys to take away from this is to remember that there are lots of hoops you can jump through out there y'all to meet the agendas that others have for you.
01:12:56.720 --> 01:12:59.199
There are always more skills you can learn.
01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:08.960
There are always more ways that you can grow and stretch and show up in the world both as a business owner and and as a clinician, as a healer.
01:13:09.439 --> 01:13:11.520
And yeah, you know those things are important.
01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:32.239
Those things matter but what I have always felt and what I keep coming home to is that in the end the biggest difference we can make for the people we are here to help is by just showing up as our best self.
01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:45.760
And y'all there are many aspects to that one of them is running a healthy business one that is not based on resentment or lack where you are getting your own needs met.
01:13:47.039 --> 01:13:59.840
But it also means running a healthy business where you get to serve the people you are most suited to serve the people you feel called to serve the people you genuinely most enjoy serving.
01:14:00.880 --> 01:14:21.840
And in the end it really isn't about the letters after your name y'all I mean your education matters your training matters you're a licensor if you are a licensed professional yes of course that matters and it matters a lot but those aren't the things that make you genuinely good at the work you do.
01:14:22.800 --> 01:14:52.399
What really matters more than anything is your heart your clarity your ability to know and trust yourself to be in alignment with your true self so that you can have your clients do the same so in whatever way is right for them so that they too can find their way back home to their true self.
01:14:56.399 --> 01:15:10.239
Yeah no matter what else is happening out there in the world that's always gonna be what matters the most well I hope you all enjoyed this and as always I really really appreciate you listening.
01:15:10.479 --> 01:15:19.680
If you liked this if you enjoyed it and you haven't left a review yet that would be awesome if you wanted to do that but it more than anything I'm just glad you're here.
01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:24.479
I hope you have a great week everybody and I will talk to you next time.