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Welcome, fellow adventurer, to Gamify Business Tavern Tales, a place to discover the roads less traveled on your creative journey.
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Welcome back to the Tavern, fellow adventurers.
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I'm Paul Pape, your barkeep and game master.
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So tonight's guest saw through an illusion that's trapped thousands of creative entrepreneurs.
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And then he built something to break the spell.
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So let me tell you about the metrics mirage.
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This shimmering trap has convinced an entire generation of creators that success lives in the numbers.
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Downloads, subscribers, algorithmic favor.
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Chase the metrics, and the money will follow.
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So creators grind.
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They post, they optimize, they feed the platforms.
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And most of them never see a dime.
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Thousands of downloads, zero dollars.
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Years of content that made someone else rich.
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The metrics mirage keeps you performing on someone else's stage, playing a game rigged against you while the real opportunity goes completely unseen.
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Jeff Ravilla saw through the Mirage and instead of chasing it, he built an arena.
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By day, Jeff works in digital marketing, but by night, he created Podie, a live podcast theater in Tarentum, Pennsylvania.
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Instead of chasing downloads and ad CPMs, Jeff flipped the entire podcast model.
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He treats live podcasting like a game creators can actually win: small room, real audience, clear rules, shared revenue.
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Podcasters can walk away profitable after their very first show.
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But here's what makes Jeff's story relevant beyond podcasting.
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He understood that designing the arena creates more leverage than performing on someone else's stage.
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That principle applies to any creative entrepreneur tired of feeding platforms that never feed them back.
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So tonight he's here to share what he's learned about gamifying a creative business, building infrastructure instead of just content, and why the creators who own the venue always beat the creators chasing the algorithm.
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Jeff, welcome to the Tavern.
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So when did you first see through the Metrics Mirage?
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Holy heck, I want to say that intro.
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I've never heard somebody tell me my vision back to me better than I understand it.
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Holy heck.
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So thank you for that introduction.
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I'm sitting here on the edge of my seat, like, what's gonna say next?
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But the look, you know, I really saw uh it kind of like a money ball mentality of uh you know, I'm playing a game, I'm playing, I'm thinking moneyball, like how do we acquire the best baseball players at the best price to win championships?
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Well, I start looking at why are we doing all this work for algorithms, for these social networks?
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They don't care about me.
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And if I do, if I do get up to like a thousand downloads, I'll be rewarded with a$20 ad.
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Somebody will pay me$20 per 1,000 downloads.
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I started thinking, well, I don't own that content, I don't own that audience.
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But if I bring four people into my theater and I charge them five dollars each, those four people are the same profit as a thousand downloads.
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So, you know, that that immediately switched my mentality that an in-person audience is 250 times more valuable than a digital download.
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Wow, that's that's impressive.
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And as a guy who comes from theater, I understand this a lot, and this is very important for the people to know.
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So yeah, exactly.
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So most podcasters are still chasing the downloads, hoping the algorithm will someday notice them and then the money will follow.
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You looked at that model and you said, Yeah, this game is rigged.
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So, what made you see through the metrics mirage when so many creators are still trapped in it?
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Yeah, the irony is it's server logs from the podcast hosts, BuzzSprout, Libson, they all publish their network and how many downloads their people on their network get.
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So if you look at it, it's only about five percent in the first seven days get over a thousand downloads.
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I'd say maybe ten percent in the first 30 days can get a thousand downloads per episode.
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That means this model that every podcaster is chasing that I'm gonna build an audience, I'm gonna get sponsors, and I'm gonna read ads.
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I'm never gonna get to a thousand downloads.
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And a thousand is how they pay you.
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They pay you in CPMs or cost per thousand downloads.
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Right.
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That doesn't apply to 90% of podcasters.
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So most I've learned that most podcasters are chasing this one goal, this they're following this one carrot on a stick in front of them, and they just aren't gonna get there.
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And that's okay when they know the game, when they understand how the numbers stack, most of them don't the numbers don't stack in their favor.
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But if you flip the model and you start with monetization, if you start with real life events, if you start with an in-person audience, you flip that script on its head and you're a hundred percent in control of your own destiny.
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Hmm.
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I mean that's that's brilliant.
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So uh yeah, I mean, it's just it's such an interesting switch.
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I was literally looking at my numbers today because I had posted my new Friday podcast or whatever, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not hitting those thousand numbers.
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I'm not looking at it though, because I've been in this long enough to know that that's not the game I'm chasing.
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It's really just an advertisement and I'm putting it out there.
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But again, if no one's seeing your ads, no one's making any money, or you're not making any money, obviously, someone's making some money.
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So that's such a brilliant way of approaching it, of thinking about it, because then you can literally from day one start making some money.
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Yeah, you're in control and you start to if you're gonna spend all that time to build to a thousand downloads or ten thousand downloads, is it much more practical to think I could get four people in a studio or I could get 20 people in front of me?
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Those 20 people at at five dollars a piece, that's a hundred dollars.
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That's equal to five thousand downloads.
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So when we start looking at you know, comparing apples to apples, these things have value.
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In person, people have value.
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You mentioned being the theater person, you know, a ticketed person, somebody who's coming out to see you, they're invested, they're way more interested in what you're creating and what you're producing than somebody who's passively listening to you on their morning commute, right?
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Absolutely, it's just a better model.
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And it and for 90% of podcasters, it's so much more achievable, and nobody's talking about it.
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No, everyone's like, I'm gonna just sit in my basement, I'm gonna record audio, I'm gonna release MP3 files, and someday down the road, five, ten years from now, I might get to a thousand downloads and I can make twenty dollars after 10 years of work.
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I'm telling you, you can make$20 on day one.
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Yeah, that's I mean it's it's such an interesting thing.
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And I think that there's an aspect of it coming from theater that I think you're missing, which or maybe you're not, and it's just not in this thing that we've talked about yet.
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But there is an energy to a live audience that you will never experience in your basement.
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Absolutely.
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Not only that, there's a credibility to it.
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When you tell people what you know, think about your first Thanksgiving after you've launched your podcast, and you're telling your family at the table, like, hey, I started a podcast, and they're like, Oh, that's great.
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And then maybe you pull up their phone and maybe you'll you know, secretly subscribe them to your podcast.
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They don't really understand or care.
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They know what a podcast is, but that's not their thing.
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But the moment you say, Hey, you know, in June this year, I'm gonna be performing my show on the main stage at the Padootie Live Podcast Theater, all of a sudden, boom, they understand that.
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They know that an event is a real thing, it's a tangible experience.
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That adds so much credibility, it adds a whole nother layer to what you're creating that more people are relating to.
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They understand that, and then you get in front of them, like you're saying, that live audience is electric.
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They're you they're giving you real-time feedback, you know right away if a joke's funny or not, right?
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You know who's paying attention.
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Not only that, they also stick around, which is something we didn't expect.
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I have trouble clearing out the theater after shows.
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There's such a connection being made, you don't get that recording in your basement and releasing an MP3 file.
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You're building something, you're building a community, and it is it's electric having people right there in front of you.
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And then you also have the opportunity to sell merch.
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I mean, I've I've had a podcast that I've been doing, it's called Tales from the Front Porch.
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I've been doing it for like 14 years now, and we have a lot of merch, and our fans will buy it.
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But again, it's not thousands of people.
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But if I had a table that had merch on it and people really enjoyed the show, then there's extra income that's coming into my pocket at the end of the day, which is brilliant.
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Yeah, we start layering it.
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So uh one of the things I say, start with monetization and then other things will happen.
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And merch is another great example.
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If you have a show, we have a great show, Crips and Corks that come in.
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They've done three or four shows at the theater, they do it quarterly.
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And when they come in, they set up a table, they make custom buttons for every show, they make custom posters that they hand sign, they have t-shirts, they have stickers.
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They're coming in, they're not only getting$10 ticket price, they're teasing that ticket price up, you know,$12,$13,$14 on average because people want other things.
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They want that souvenir.
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They want to be remembered, you know, that they were at that event.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So, speaking of the theater, instead of optimizing for someone else's platform, you built the physical venue, a podcast theater.
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Now, that's a completely different bet for most people.
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So, what made you decide to construct the arena instead of just performing in someone else's?
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What and what did it take to actually make that happen?
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Yeah, it really goes back.
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It's funny, it's an online experience that started it.
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And about 2015, there was this platform called Blab, and Blab was this first four-in-the-box live stream service, and you would go live and it had this social element that would drop 30 to 40 people in your room within the first couple minutes.
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And it and it was crazy.
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The audience could send commands and make the stage shake, they could send props, which would throw coins all over the place, and they could make it snow if they wanted to.
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They could do all kinds of crazy things, and the but it had this community element, this it brought people together.
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Unfortunately, it didn't have a monetization strategy, and it collapsed under its own weight.
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It couldn't maintain the servers, it couldn't do anything.
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But it showed me that what we were building at that time was my trivia show, could be something so much more than just recording an episode in my basement.
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It could be this community element, this community um event where we're all coming together doing something greater than just listening to me, you know, talk into a microphone and having a good time.
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And so I built this idea, and I have a picture of it.
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It was called Theater Anywhere.
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I was like, well, if Blab's not around anymore, and these other platforms like YouTube Hangout or Google Hangouts, uh appear in and hop in and all these other ones, they didn't do the same thing.
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I was like, that's it, I'm going out into the world.
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So I built Theater Anywhere, which was literally something I could set up in the backseat of my sedan.
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I could pop up, I could have a I'd have my mixer, my speakers, and I could just set up a podcast set anywhere, whether it was like you know, those clamshell arenas at you know community parks or alongside a riverwalk, you know, kind of scare people from behind a tree or at a mall, you know, in the kiosk area.
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I could take that and go anywhere and go out into the public and just start doing a show.
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And a friend of mine that decided to open a coffee shop and said, Hey, I got this parking lot next to me.
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Why don't we do a live show?
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And I said, Oh, that'd be great.
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Yeah, I'll bring my theater anywhere.
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And I said it, we had it planned for March 30th, 2020.
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And yeah, the timing wasn't the best.
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And even even a couple days before, we thought, like, hey, is the two weeks up?
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You think we'll be okay?
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You know, two weeks of quarantine, we should be able to do the show.
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We had to cancel it, but that showed me the possibility, and we did end up doing it the next year, and 40 people showed up.
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And I was like, wait a second, 40 people will come to see a live trivia show in a parking lot at a coffee shop on a Tuesday night.
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This is different, this is something new.
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And so I just fell in love with the idea, and I started thinking, like, okay, well, I if I could take this to parties, like raging kagers in a basement of you know, weddings, ba mitzvahs, like I could do all these crazy setups and just do live shows everywhere.
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And I I kept refining and kept thinking about it, and I was like, Well, I'm getting older too.
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I'm like, you know, at this time I'm like 45, 50, and I'm thinking, wait a second, what if I took this and I just built a studio?
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I built a space, it doesn't have to be a giant space, but what I could do is you know, I could put some chairs in it and I could surround it with cameras, I could stream it while I'm there.
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So now I'm not just limited by the people who show up, I'm actually infinite seat theater.
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So this is what Hadooty became the infinite seat theater, where I actually, my little 40-seat theater has the same capacity as Madison Square Garden, and that's what we're thinking about here.
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We're thinking, how do these small towns and these small spaces with you know a lot of vacant inventory in small towns around America, rent cheap, you know, 800 bucks a month for where I'm at, you know, 1200 with utilities.
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So this little tiny space has the potential to do big, big numbers.
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And that's the model, the business, my business mind, you know, focused on that.
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Well, how do we make this you know reasonable?
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How do we make it affordable for everybody to just kind of start with this kind of model?
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And how do we grow from there?
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And how do we scale exponentially?
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And the reason we wanted to do that is whenever I went from the coffee shop, you know, to the theaters and or to the small parties, what I wanted to do was take that to like hotels.
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And I started looking at, hey, how do I get a conference room at a hotel?
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Well, they're like, Well, first you sign this contract, then you give us ten thousand dollars.
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And I was like, Well, I can't do that.
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From 40 people who are gonna show up, right?
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Yeah, yeah, 40, yeah, I'm not gonna make that money back.
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But but a theater model like this is accessible for most podcasters, it's not gonna break the bank, right?
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So that that's kind of how we got to this type of model was that infinite seat theater concept so that it scales, so that it's bigger than a 40 seat theater, it's it's infinite.
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That's awesome.
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So you've talked about gamifying ticket sales, audience engagement, and monetization.
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For creative entrepreneurs who hear the word gamify and think it's just a buzzword.
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What does that actually look like at Padutti?
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What are the rules of the game you've designed and why do you think they work?
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Yeah, I really want this to be a space for everybody.
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I I grew up skateboarding and punk rock in the 80s.
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Like I love disc golf, like I like very counterculture things, it turns out.
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And and podcasting is right there.
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It's independent media.
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You create it and you own it.
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So though I took all the things from my experience, like I wanted to always be the DIY guy, I want to be the punk rock guy.
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And and the way that this model works, it really is game for the independent creator.
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Whereas I don't have a contract, not like a hotel, right?
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A hotel's gonna make you sign a contract, they're gonna make you use their A V guy.
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If they have union, you gotta pay the union people to move stuff in and out.
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All that's gone here.
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This is a handshake deal.
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If you want to do it, we're gonna we're gonna hot put a show on.
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We do have uh event landing pages for you.
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We don't charge for that.
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We facilitate all the ticket sales, you don't have to worry about ticket processing charges.
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We we produce the event, we record the event, we give you back the recording.
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We don't even take ownership over it.
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You're coming in here with a white glove service with not a single expense.
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If you produce tickets, we split the door at the end of like 50-50.
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You can only do a show and walk out of there with money in your pocket.
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There's no hidden fees, there's no hidden expenses.
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We've literally gamed it for you to win on episode number one.
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Every show has walked out of there with money in their pocket.
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No one has ever lost money at the theater.
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So that brings me right to this next question.
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So you say that podcasters can walk away profitable after their very first live show, and I truly believe it after listening to what you're saying here.
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But that's the opposite of the grind for years and maybe someday monetize model that most creatives are told to follow.
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So you've explained that you're splitting it 50-50.
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So, what makes immediate profitability possible when the rest of the industry says that you have to pay your dues first?
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We're looking to flip that model.
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And I want to build a model for podcasters who do work.
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I mean, you if you do a show for a couple years to build up to a thousand downloads, that's two years of work that you've done, maybe eight hours, 12 hours a week trying to produce an episode every week.
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That's tangible time, that's real time that you're spending building your show.
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What I want to do is build a foundation that's based around monetization, that's based around that rising tide lifts all ships.
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I want people to come in here, do a show, not worry about anything else.
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Don't worry about did they sign the contract, do they have hidden expenses, whatever.
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They can just focus on the show and bringing people in and doing tickets.
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From there, we start to layer on the other thing.
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:37.519
You already mentioned merchandising.
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:38.640
Yeah, that's great.
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:39.680
You can add that to the ticket.
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:41.119
We do BYOB tickets.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.400
That's a quick, that's a cheap, easy way to tease up a ticket.
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:45.599
Merchandising.
00:17:45.839 --> 00:18:00.079
Now, because you're building events, sponsors are way more interested in you having people in a physical location than worrying about the effect of having a digital download be heard, have that message retained.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:01.759
They want to be part of things.
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:07.519
So now you're layering, you got ticket sales, merchandise, BYOB tickets are easy, right?
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.240
Now sponsors start to come and they want to sponsor the event.
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:12.960
Maybe it's a mixer, a meetup, a business community.
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:17.440
Now you're bringing in accountants, you know, you're bringing in people who may sponsor the event.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:18.960
They're gonna have signage.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:27.839
You can sell signage, you can sell ad space on the ticket sales, you can then you know give mention from the stage, give mention the recording.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:30.480
You can even add a banner on your website.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:36.640
You can then add uh a read into the podcast that you're gonna distribute as an MP3 file anyway.
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.720
Now you've layered all these opportunities from the start.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:47.599
You start with this, you start with monetization and you build it up like a sandwich, you know, keep stacking on layers.
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:56.720
It's it's brilliant because I can guarantee you 98% of people who start a podcast, monetization is the last thing that they're thinking about.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:16.480
They're thinking about, well, this is the thing that I want to do, how I want to sound, how are you know, all the other aspects that go into the creation of it, but they're not thinking about because the money aspect, because you sink a ton of money into creating a podcast, especially if you're doing it in your own home, because you don't and if it's live, it's video, that's even more because you got to have the rig to run it, you have to have cameras, microphones.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.480
If you've got a guest, you have to have multiple microphones.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:20.880
And you've if you don't know how to do this, you've got to learn all this stuff.
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:34.160
There's such an investment in it to be able to start it on the ground with monetization already in place, where profit is not just a hope, but it's a it's almost a requirement uh in your space.
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:35.680
That's it's freaking brilliant, man.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.400
I love it.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:37.440
Thank you.
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:38.960
I it's and it's very important to me.
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:45.440
I want like I've been a content creator, I've been grinding and hustling in you know, 2015, 2016.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:56.319
I'm producing shows, trivia shows aren't easy too, because it's a couple hours to write questions, a couple hours to book guests, a couple hours to record, it's some more time to edit.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:03.359
Like, there's an investment in there, and I love doing it, and but I also am I'm giving a service to people.
00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:06.960
How do I monetize that in a way that's not gross?
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:16.640
Like, I don't want to just sit there and read like purple mattress ads on the no respect to purple mattress, but I don't want to just I don't want to just read ads because I they're gonna give me money.
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.160
I want to give an experience, I want it to be a fair trade.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:29.680
I want you to come to my theater to see a show because you like what they're talking about, you like the content, you like the people, you want to support local creators.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:31.920
That's a fair trade, like a 10 bucks.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:32.799
Okay, great.
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.319
I'll I'll do that all day long to support local content creators.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:51.039
And and I think that's a much fairer trade than like like you know, read it, like not the better help or purple mattress or or you know, me undies is a bad ad read, but like it's also not it doesn't fit every show.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.279
Every show doesn't need to have advertisements.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.839
There are better ways to to give an exchange of value to your audience.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:15.920
Well, one of the things that I've noticed as a business who is trying to get the word out there of my business is that if I want to sponsor something on a podcast that has a larger, not even necessarily a larger reach, to say if I want to go on to something that that's on, you know, uh sponsored on Apple or whatever, my investment as a as a sponsor is astronomical.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:24.480
Whereas if I came to your space and there was a podcast that aligned its audience with what I was trying to sell in the first place, I could be like, I'll give you 500 bucks.
00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:35.039
I don't know any small podcast or even like medium-sized podcast that won't just turn down that'll turn down$500 just on the table just for having a banner or for saying the name of my business out there.
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:41.519
It's such a great opportunity for smaller businesses to invest in something that speaks to an audience that is pretty dedicated.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.440
So finding that smaller podcast that you're like, these people are, these are where my people are at.
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:49.200
And then as a smaller business, say, hey, would you guys like to be sponsored?
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:56.160
Or in the opposite direction, it's the podcast coming to the sponsor and saying, Hey, I've got this live show that's going on for a minimal investment.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.200
It's not tens of thousands of dollars, it's 500, 2,000 bucks.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.279
Yeah, it it's it's part of the community too.
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:04.799
It's it's local people.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:13.039
I mean, a lot more says, hey, I'm part of this town than I'm supporting these people in this town doing this thing at the theater in my town.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:23.039
Like it's you can't tie, you can have a better tie, and you can't get that from just broadcasting TV ads or or download people still advertise in the newspaper.
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:46.480
You know, it's not you can have these experiential events, and that really is the future of as in as the internet gets more and more segmented, and people get more and more disgusted by like AI swap and content from AI bots and comments from AI bots, they're rejecting that, and they're being drove to real life events in in mass right now.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:56.480
And now these places like theaters, comedy clubs, um, small bars, restaurants, they're booming because people want real life experiences.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:03.279
And if you're a local business, that's where your attention should be in these experiential events into the future.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:04.319
Absolutely.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:07.279
So let's zoom out from podcasting specifically.
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:17.039
The idea of design the arena instead of just the content applies to any creative entrepreneurs, it could be photographers, designers, makers, or artists.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:19.680
So, what's the broader lesson here?
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:27.359
How does a creative solopreneur start thinking like an arena architect instead of just another performer chasing metrics?
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.079
Oh, that's a great question.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:35.759
The um you want to think like thinking about these uh thinking outside the box, right?
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:38.799
I started with you know, what is a podcast?
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:46.960
And a podcast was an MP3 file distributed by an RSS feed to uh aggregator app and people could you know could download it.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.759
What I start thinking is when is a podcast?
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:51.279
Where is a podcast?
00:23:51.519 --> 00:24:17.920
So these other questions about podcasting to expand that definition way before podcasting became you know a video on YouTube, or you know, now it's TV shows on Netflix or called podcasts, before the definition of podcasts expanded, taking the basics, the roots of what a podcast is, and building well beyond that, not just that MP3 file, these other experiences, the other events that we're talking about.
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.559
There are so many ways and directions that you can expand a podcast.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:28.400
Some podcasts right now are keynotes and conferences, they're part of bigger events.
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:32.480
There's you know, local libraries are always looking for people to come in.
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:36.960
There are so many events and things happening in a community that involve podcasting.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.640
That's just a little bit outside your definition of what a podcast is.
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:50.000
That if you took that maybe to a bookstore, maybe to a coffee shop and did that show in front of that audience, you're expanding what a podcast can be.
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:55.519
You're thinking way outside the box of where you can take it and how far you can take it.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.319
Yeah, it's it's it's a great way to expand on that.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:24:58.720
Absolutely.
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.039
So you work in digital marketing by day and you built this podcast theater at night.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.599
So a lot of creative entrepreneurs feel like they have to choose.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.559
It's either stability or their creative vision.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:10.240
But you're walking both paths here.
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:12.160
So what's that actually like?
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:17.519
And what would you tell someone who feels guilty for not going all in on their creative dreams?
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:18.559
Yeah, I love it.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:20.960
I mean, I uh I do this, I've been doing this.
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.720
I've actually been doing digital marketing since like 1997.
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:35.680
I I had a skate shop at one of the like first male order skateboard companies in the early 2000s, and I I just worked 12, 14 hours a day, like like because that's what you're supposed to do when you have a business.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:42.079
And I you know, over time I got I settled down, married kids, stable job.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:47.440
And you know, that that my focus during those times were the kids, the family, the stable job.
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:57.200
And I still love my job, I love my family, but my my daughters are getting older, so I've opened up a lot of free time, and now you know it was Jeff.
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:01.599
Like I'm trying to bring back Jeff a little bit and and have these experiences.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:12.640
And what I want to do is lose my train of thought completely, and then continue talking without disrupting the flow of the whatever the question was.
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.759
I'm still you're gonna let me sit here and you're let me suffer again.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:17.920
If you'd like, I can tell you what the question is.
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:22.559
So it's it's I just love it when you're just like I'll spitball here.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:24.319
What's what's what is it?
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:25.920
Okay, so you've actually honestly answered it.
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:32.640
I was just asking you like, what's it take for someone to get over the feeling of guilt for not pursuing their all-in dreams?
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:49.680
Like, like you're you're walking a tightrope of responsibility and dreaming, and so like, but obviously you're making both work, you know, you're still responsible, you're a father, you've got a real job, you're bringing in the income, but at the same time, you're like, I'm gonna I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna be creative at the same time.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:57.279
So, like, how do you combat that inner voice that's always telling you, no, no, no, it's either one or the other, you can't do both.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:26:58.480
Two things.
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:00.720
One, I I'll I will go through my schedule.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:05.839
Um, I'm I'm a big part of this is dedicated time for this, and this is dedicated time for that.
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:10.319
But funny enough, when I was turned 48, I gave myself an ultimatum.
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:14.559
Like, I am so tired of talking about the infinite seat theater.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:16.880
I need to know if this is a real thing or not.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:20.799
Like, I presented in a pod fest, I've been talking about it for seven years.
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:26.160
I was like, okay, I'm just gonna do it for a couple years, then I'll know if it's a real thing or not.
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:31.519
So, you know, my daughter was graduating, my first daughter was graduating high school, so she was going off to college.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:36.240
My uh other daughter is a sophomore now, and I'm like, okay, they need me less and less.
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.640
This is the time to experiment and figure it out.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:43.039
So, you know, one, I I didn't do it until I gave myself permission.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.400
So I was tired of talking about it, and I need to know an answer.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:53.200
Like, I don't want to go to the grave just wondering what if and still talking about the infinite sea theater in my 80s.
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:54.480
I I want to do this.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:55.279
Now's the time.
00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:57.359
I'm I'm so young, I'm so healthy.
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:58.720
Let's do it.
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:12.480
And then when I do that, like, okay, now I still have a full-time job, and I got this theater that I'm running now in the evenings and weekends, but I really I do segment and I structure things very well.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:18.319
Like I record my podcast Tuesdays and Saturdays, Tuesdays at 7 p.m., Saturdays at 10 a.m.
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:23.519
And then within 24 hours the next day, I have it edited and ready for distribution.
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:30.000
So other than then, if there's shows in the evening, you know, I work all day, I go to the theater, I produce a show, and I come home.
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.359
I I'm really, really structured in how I do things.
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:39.119
Like Monday is a day for just doing podcast interviews in the evening from 6 to 10.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.279
I just try to book as many shows as I can.
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:44.160
And Monday is my podcast interview day.
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:51.519
And it's really about scheduling that time and giving yourself permission, you know, balancing it correctly with your family.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:57.200
Ten years ago, when my daughters were five and nine, I still had to put them to bed at night.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.319
I still had to feed them, you know, get all those things.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:02.960
So I didn't start recording till nine or ten at night.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.079
And that was that was for that was right for me at that time.
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:10.079
But now they're like, they don't, you know, they're teenagers, they don't want to care about dad.
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.400
You know, dad, go do your thing.
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:18.720
And uh my problem is I record during the day because if I record with them at home, it sounds like elephants kind of like standing above my head.
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.119
So I'm like, no, let's do these school hours so that I can at least have some time.
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:23.680
That's perfect.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:24.720
I I understand you.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:25.039
Yeah.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:33.839
So for adventurers listening who want to learn more about what you're building, or maybe even bring their podcast to a live stage, where can they find you?
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.759
Yeah, two places padooty.com, pody.com.
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.000
It's got one letter less than Netflix.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:44.880
Are you gonna type seven letters to get entertainment or type six to go to podooty.com?
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:47.599
I have everything I talked about is on that site.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.359
Uh, I you can see upcoming events, you can see the exact business model.
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:52.480
I don't have anything.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:57.440
I publish it so that you know that what I'm saying, that my word is my most valuable currency.
00:29:57.680 --> 00:29:59.279
And also my site, check me out.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:01.119
You want to look at jeffrovilla.com.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:03.039
I got all kinds of photos of me on there.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:06.240
Jeffrovilla, R-E-V-I-L-L-A.com.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:16.000
And you'll learn about my history, you'll see the appearances I'm on, especially this podcast, because I'll I'll write uh I write a little post about every show I'm on and how it relates to what I'm building.
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:19.519
And I'm I'm just excited, just excited to do this.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.559
Reach out to me.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:22.960
There's forms on every page on Padutie.
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:26.160
I will help you figure out how to do this in your town.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.240
I don't need you to come to Pittsburgh.
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:37.519
There's plenty of bars, restaurants, coffee shops, libraries in your hometown that are looking for activities, they're looking to bring people through their front door.
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:40.559
We'll start and we'll figure out how to do that.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:45.279
And if you don't want to talk to me, I do have a book on Amazon that talks about all of this.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.279
So just Google my name, Jeff Revilla.
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:48.559
It's the first thing that pops up.
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:50.880
Uh, the new business model for podcasting.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.640
Awesome, excellent.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:58.720
And that fellow adventurers is what it sounds like when an arena architect shares the blueprints.
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:03.440
So I want to thank Jeff for pulling up a chair tonight and naming something most creators never see.
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.000
The metrics mirage is a trap.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:12.640
Chasing downloads, feeding algorithms, performing on platforms you don't know, that is not a path to success.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:16.480
It's a path to exhaustion while someone else profits from your work.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:18.480
So here's what I want you to take from tonight.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:23.759
The creators who win aren't always the ones with the most content or the biggest following.
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:29.279
Sometimes they're the ones who stopped chasing the mirage and started building their own arena instead.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:31.839
You don't have to be a podcaster to apply this.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:39.039
Photographers can build venues, designers can create showcases, makers can construct retail experiences.
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.319
The principle's the same.
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:43.440
Whoever builds the stage controls the game.
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:57.599
If Jeff's story resonated with you, check out what he's building over at Padooty.com as well as Jeffrevilla.com and start asking yourself, what would it look like if to design your own arena instead of just performing in someone else's?
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.200
So until next time, remember, business is an adventure.
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:03.119
Don't be an NPC.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:04.319
Thank you.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:07.839
Welcome, fellow adventurer, to Gamify Business Tavern Tales, a place to discover the roads less traveled on your creative journey.
00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:16.000
Welcome back to the Tavern, fellow adventurers.
00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:18.960
I'm Paul Pape, your barkeep and game master.
00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:24.480
So tonight's guest saw through an illusion that's trapped thousands of creative entrepreneurs.
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:27.359
And then he built something to break the spell.
00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:30.320
So let me tell you about the metrics mirage.
00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:37.119
This shimmering trap has convinced an entire generation of creators that success lives in the numbers.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.479
Downloads, subscribers, algorithmic favor.
00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:43.280
Chase the metrics, and the money will follow.
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:44.719
So creators grind.
00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:47.920
They post, they optimize, they feed the platforms.
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:50.159
And most of them never see a dime.
00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.280
Thousands of downloads, zero dollars.
00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:56.719
Years of content that made someone else rich.
00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:05.599
The metrics mirage keeps you performing on someone else's stage, playing a game rigged against you while the real opportunity goes completely unseen.
00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:11.040
Jeff Ravilla saw through the Mirage and instead of chasing it, he built an arena.
00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:19.680
By day, Jeff works in digital marketing, but by night, he created Podie, a live podcast theater in Tarentum, Pennsylvania.
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:25.359
Instead of chasing downloads and ad CPMs, Jeff flipped the entire podcast model.
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:33.120
He treats live podcasting like a game creators can actually win: small room, real audience, clear rules, shared revenue.
00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:37.920
Podcasters can walk away profitable after their very first show.
00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:41.519
But here's what makes Jeff's story relevant beyond podcasting.
00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:46.879
He understood that designing the arena creates more leverage than performing on someone else's stage.
00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:53.840
That principle applies to any creative entrepreneur tired of feeding platforms that never feed them back.
00:01:54.079 --> 00:02:06.400
So tonight he's here to share what he's learned about gamifying a creative business, building infrastructure instead of just content, and why the creators who own the venue always beat the creators chasing the algorithm.
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:08.560
Jeff, welcome to the Tavern.
00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:12.159
So when did you first see through the Metrics Mirage?
00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:15.680
Holy heck, I want to say that intro.
00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:20.879
I've never heard somebody tell me my vision back to me better than I understand it.
00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:21.840
Holy heck.
00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.199
So thank you for that introduction.
00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:26.560
I'm sitting here on the edge of my seat, like, what's gonna say next?
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:38.800
But the look, you know, I really saw uh it kind of like a money ball mentality of uh you know, I'm playing a game, I'm playing, I'm thinking moneyball, like how do we acquire the best baseball players at the best price to win championships?
00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:44.560
Well, I start looking at why are we doing all this work for algorithms, for these social networks?
00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:46.080
They don't care about me.
00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:53.199
And if I do, if I do get up to like a thousand downloads, I'll be rewarded with a$20 ad.
00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:56.479
Somebody will pay me$20 per 1,000 downloads.
00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:01.039
I started thinking, well, I don't own that content, I don't own that audience.
00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:10.000
But if I bring four people into my theater and I charge them five dollars each, those four people are the same profit as a thousand downloads.
00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:20.800
So, you know, that that immediately switched my mentality that an in-person audience is 250 times more valuable than a digital download.
00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:23.360
Wow, that's that's impressive.
00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:28.639
And as a guy who comes from theater, I understand this a lot, and this is very important for the people to know.
00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:30.000
So yeah, exactly.
00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:37.120
So most podcasters are still chasing the downloads, hoping the algorithm will someday notice them and then the money will follow.
00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:40.479
You looked at that model and you said, Yeah, this game is rigged.
00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:46.000
So, what made you see through the metrics mirage when so many creators are still trapped in it?
00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:58.319
Yeah, the irony is it's server logs from the podcast hosts, BuzzSprout, Libson, they all publish their network and how many downloads their people on their network get.
00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:06.400
So if you look at it, it's only about five percent in the first seven days get over a thousand downloads.
00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:12.159
I'd say maybe ten percent in the first 30 days can get a thousand downloads per episode.
00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:20.800
That means this model that every podcaster is chasing that I'm gonna build an audience, I'm gonna get sponsors, and I'm gonna read ads.
00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.600
I'm never gonna get to a thousand downloads.
00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:25.600
And a thousand is how they pay you.
00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:28.800
They pay you in CPMs or cost per thousand downloads.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:29.120
Right.
00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.759
That doesn't apply to 90% of podcasters.
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:40.959
So most I've learned that most podcasters are chasing this one goal, this they're following this one carrot on a stick in front of them, and they just aren't gonna get there.
00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:49.519
And that's okay when they know the game, when they understand how the numbers stack, most of them don't the numbers don't stack in their favor.
00:04:49.839 --> 00:05:02.720
But if you flip the model and you start with monetization, if you start with real life events, if you start with an in-person audience, you flip that script on its head and you're a hundred percent in control of your own destiny.
00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:03.680
Hmm.
00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:05.120
I mean that's that's brilliant.
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:09.040
So uh yeah, I mean, it's just it's such an interesting switch.
00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:16.480
I was literally looking at my numbers today because I had posted my new Friday podcast or whatever, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not hitting those thousand numbers.
00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.720
I'm not looking at it though, because I've been in this long enough to know that that's not the game I'm chasing.
00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:22.800
It's really just an advertisement and I'm putting it out there.
00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:28.240
But again, if no one's seeing your ads, no one's making any money, or you're not making any money, obviously, someone's making some money.
00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:35.920
So that's such a brilliant way of approaching it, of thinking about it, because then you can literally from day one start making some money.
00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:50.240
Yeah, you're in control and you start to if you're gonna spend all that time to build to a thousand downloads or ten thousand downloads, is it much more practical to think I could get four people in a studio or I could get 20 people in front of me?
00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:54.800
Those 20 people at at five dollars a piece, that's a hundred dollars.
00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.199
That's equal to five thousand downloads.
00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:02.240
So when we start looking at you know, comparing apples to apples, these things have value.
00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.600
In person, people have value.
00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:19.360
You mentioned being the theater person, you know, a ticketed person, somebody who's coming out to see you, they're invested, they're way more interested in what you're creating and what you're producing than somebody who's passively listening to you on their morning commute, right?
00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:21.759
Absolutely, it's just a better model.
00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:27.199
And it and for 90% of podcasters, it's so much more achievable, and nobody's talking about it.
00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:42.480
No, everyone's like, I'm gonna just sit in my basement, I'm gonna record audio, I'm gonna release MP3 files, and someday down the road, five, ten years from now, I might get to a thousand downloads and I can make twenty dollars after 10 years of work.
00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.360
I'm telling you, you can make$20 on day one.
00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.079
Yeah, that's I mean it's it's such an interesting thing.
00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:55.040
And I think that there's an aspect of it coming from theater that I think you're missing, which or maybe you're not, and it's just not in this thing that we've talked about yet.
00:06:55.199 --> 00:07:00.480
But there is an energy to a live audience that you will never experience in your basement.
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:02.000
Absolutely.
00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.759
Not only that, there's a credibility to it.
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:16.160
When you tell people what you know, think about your first Thanksgiving after you've launched your podcast, and you're telling your family at the table, like, hey, I started a podcast, and they're like, Oh, that's great.
00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:21.920
And then maybe you pull up their phone and maybe you'll you know, secretly subscribe them to your podcast.
00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:23.920
They don't really understand or care.
00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.120
They know what a podcast is, but that's not their thing.
00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:39.839
But the moment you say, Hey, you know, in June this year, I'm gonna be performing my show on the main stage at the Padootie Live Podcast Theater, all of a sudden, boom, they understand that.
00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.639
They know that an event is a real thing, it's a tangible experience.
00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:52.000
That adds so much credibility, it adds a whole nother layer to what you're creating that more people are relating to.
00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:58.639
They understand that, and then you get in front of them, like you're saying, that live audience is electric.
00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:04.399
They're you they're giving you real-time feedback, you know right away if a joke's funny or not, right?
00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:06.240
You know who's paying attention.
00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:11.360
Not only that, they also stick around, which is something we didn't expect.
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.560
I have trouble clearing out the theater after shows.
00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:21.040
There's such a connection being made, you don't get that recording in your basement and releasing an MP3 file.
00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:27.360
You're building something, you're building a community, and it is it's electric having people right there in front of you.
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.839
And then you also have the opportunity to sell merch.
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:32.480
I mean, I've I've had a podcast that I've been doing, it's called Tales from the Front Porch.
00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:36.799
I've been doing it for like 14 years now, and we have a lot of merch, and our fans will buy it.
00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:38.240
But again, it's not thousands of people.
00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:45.279
But if I had a table that had merch on it and people really enjoyed the show, then there's extra income that's coming into my pocket at the end of the day, which is brilliant.
00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:46.960
Yeah, we start layering it.
00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:51.120
So uh one of the things I say, start with monetization and then other things will happen.
00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:52.960
And merch is another great example.
00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:56.399
If you have a show, we have a great show, Crips and Corks that come in.
00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:00.000
They've done three or four shows at the theater, they do it quarterly.
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:10.480
And when they come in, they set up a table, they make custom buttons for every show, they make custom posters that they hand sign, they have t-shirts, they have stickers.
00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:19.919
They're coming in, they're not only getting$10 ticket price, they're teasing that ticket price up, you know,$12,$13,$14 on average because people want other things.
00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:21.440
They want that souvenir.
00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:24.879
They want to be remembered, you know, that they were at that event.
00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:26.799
Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:34.000
So, speaking of the theater, instead of optimizing for someone else's platform, you built the physical venue, a podcast theater.
00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:37.120
Now, that's a completely different bet for most people.
00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:42.240
So, what made you decide to construct the arena instead of just performing in someone else's?
00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.679
What and what did it take to actually make that happen?
00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:47.120
Yeah, it really goes back.
00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:49.919
It's funny, it's an online experience that started it.
00:09:50.080 --> 00:10:04.639
And about 2015, there was this platform called Blab, and Blab was this first four-in-the-box live stream service, and you would go live and it had this social element that would drop 30 to 40 people in your room within the first couple minutes.
00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:06.240
And it and it was crazy.
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:15.440
The audience could send commands and make the stage shake, they could send props, which would throw coins all over the place, and they could make it snow if they wanted to.
00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:21.840
They could do all kinds of crazy things, and the but it had this community element, this it brought people together.
00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:27.919
Unfortunately, it didn't have a monetization strategy, and it collapsed under its own weight.
00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:30.240
It couldn't maintain the servers, it couldn't do anything.
00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:38.720
But it showed me that what we were building at that time was my trivia show, could be something so much more than just recording an episode in my basement.
00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:50.399
It could be this community element, this community um event where we're all coming together doing something greater than just listening to me, you know, talk into a microphone and having a good time.
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:53.279
And so I built this idea, and I have a picture of it.
00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:55.440
It was called Theater Anywhere.
00:10:55.519 --> 00:11:05.519
I was like, well, if Blab's not around anymore, and these other platforms like YouTube Hangout or Google Hangouts, uh appear in and hop in and all these other ones, they didn't do the same thing.
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:07.519
I was like, that's it, I'm going out into the world.
00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:13.519
So I built Theater Anywhere, which was literally something I could set up in the backseat of my sedan.
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:32.480
I could pop up, I could have a I'd have my mixer, my speakers, and I could just set up a podcast set anywhere, whether it was like you know, those clamshell arenas at you know community parks or alongside a riverwalk, you know, kind of scare people from behind a tree or at a mall, you know, in the kiosk area.
00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:36.879
I could take that and go anywhere and go out into the public and just start doing a show.
00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:42.799
And a friend of mine that decided to open a coffee shop and said, Hey, I got this parking lot next to me.
00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:44.559
Why don't we do a live show?
00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:45.759
And I said, Oh, that'd be great.
00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:47.919
Yeah, I'll bring my theater anywhere.
00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.240
And I said it, we had it planned for March 30th, 2020.
00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:55.039
And yeah, the timing wasn't the best.
00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.559
And even even a couple days before, we thought, like, hey, is the two weeks up?
00:11:58.639 --> 00:11:59.360
You think we'll be okay?
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.240
You know, two weeks of quarantine, we should be able to do the show.
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:10.559
We had to cancel it, but that showed me the possibility, and we did end up doing it the next year, and 40 people showed up.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:16.960
And I was like, wait a second, 40 people will come to see a live trivia show in a parking lot at a coffee shop on a Tuesday night.
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.279
This is different, this is something new.
00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:34.639
And so I just fell in love with the idea, and I started thinking, like, okay, well, I if I could take this to parties, like raging kagers in a basement of you know, weddings, ba mitzvahs, like I could do all these crazy setups and just do live shows everywhere.
00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:39.919
And I I kept refining and kept thinking about it, and I was like, Well, I'm getting older too.
00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:48.320
I'm like, you know, at this time I'm like 45, 50, and I'm thinking, wait a second, what if I took this and I just built a studio?
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:59.759
I built a space, it doesn't have to be a giant space, but what I could do is you know, I could put some chairs in it and I could surround it with cameras, I could stream it while I'm there.
00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:06.879
So now I'm not just limited by the people who show up, I'm actually infinite seat theater.
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:18.159
So this is what Hadooty became the infinite seat theater, where I actually, my little 40-seat theater has the same capacity as Madison Square Garden, and that's what we're thinking about here.
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:31.919
We're thinking, how do these small towns and these small spaces with you know a lot of vacant inventory in small towns around America, rent cheap, you know, 800 bucks a month for where I'm at, you know, 1200 with utilities.
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:37.679
So this little tiny space has the potential to do big, big numbers.
00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:42.320
And that's the model, the business, my business mind, you know, focused on that.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:45.039
Well, how do we make this you know reasonable?
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:49.039
How do we make it affordable for everybody to just kind of start with this kind of model?
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:50.480
And how do we grow from there?
00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:52.799
And how do we scale exponentially?
00:13:52.960 --> 00:14:03.759
And the reason we wanted to do that is whenever I went from the coffee shop, you know, to the theaters and or to the small parties, what I wanted to do was take that to like hotels.
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.720
And I started looking at, hey, how do I get a conference room at a hotel?
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:11.279
Well, they're like, Well, first you sign this contract, then you give us ten thousand dollars.
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:12.960
And I was like, Well, I can't do that.
00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.080
From 40 people who are gonna show up, right?
00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:18.320
Yeah, yeah, 40, yeah, I'm not gonna make that money back.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:25.759
But but a theater model like this is accessible for most podcasters, it's not gonna break the bank, right?
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:36.480
So that that's kind of how we got to this type of model was that infinite seat theater concept so that it scales, so that it's bigger than a 40 seat theater, it's it's infinite.
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:37.519
That's awesome.
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:42.320
So you've talked about gamifying ticket sales, audience engagement, and monetization.
00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:47.360
For creative entrepreneurs who hear the word gamify and think it's just a buzzword.
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:50.399
What does that actually look like at Padutti?
00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:54.720
What are the rules of the game you've designed and why do you think they work?
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:57.360
Yeah, I really want this to be a space for everybody.
00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.639
I I grew up skateboarding and punk rock in the 80s.
00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:05.600
Like I love disc golf, like I like very counterculture things, it turns out.
00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:07.519
And and podcasting is right there.
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.039
It's independent media.
00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:10.960
You create it and you own it.
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:17.440
So though I took all the things from my experience, like I wanted to always be the DIY guy, I want to be the punk rock guy.
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:23.120
And and the way that this model works, it really is game for the independent creator.
00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.159
Whereas I don't have a contract, not like a hotel, right?
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.639
A hotel's gonna make you sign a contract, they're gonna make you use their A V guy.
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:34.720
If they have union, you gotta pay the union people to move stuff in and out.
00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:36.159
All that's gone here.
00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:37.679
This is a handshake deal.
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.720
If you want to do it, we're gonna we're gonna hot put a show on.
00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:42.960
We do have uh event landing pages for you.
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:44.320
We don't charge for that.
00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:49.039
We facilitate all the ticket sales, you don't have to worry about ticket processing charges.
00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:53.200
We we produce the event, we record the event, we give you back the recording.
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:55.120
We don't even take ownership over it.
00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:01.440
You're coming in here with a white glove service with not a single expense.
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.679
If you produce tickets, we split the door at the end of like 50-50.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:10.240
You can only do a show and walk out of there with money in your pocket.
00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:13.600
There's no hidden fees, there's no hidden expenses.
00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.159
We've literally gamed it for you to win on episode number one.
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.600
Every show has walked out of there with money in their pocket.
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:24.000
No one has ever lost money at the theater.
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.879
So that brings me right to this next question.
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:33.519
So you say that podcasters can walk away profitable after their very first live show, and I truly believe it after listening to what you're saying here.
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:40.559
But that's the opposite of the grind for years and maybe someday monetize model that most creatives are told to follow.
00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:43.679
So you've explained that you're splitting it 50-50.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:50.159
So, what makes immediate profitability possible when the rest of the industry says that you have to pay your dues first?
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.320
We're looking to flip that model.
00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.279
And I want to build a model for podcasters who do work.
00:16:55.440 --> 00:17:06.480
I mean, you if you do a show for a couple years to build up to a thousand downloads, that's two years of work that you've done, maybe eight hours, 12 hours a week trying to produce an episode every week.
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.480
That's tangible time, that's real time that you're spending building your show.
00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:19.039
What I want to do is build a foundation that's based around monetization, that's based around that rising tide lifts all ships.
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:23.440
I want people to come in here, do a show, not worry about anything else.
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:28.000
Don't worry about did they sign the contract, do they have hidden expenses, whatever.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:33.119
They can just focus on the show and bringing people in and doing tickets.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:35.680
From there, we start to layer on the other thing.
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:37.519
You already mentioned merchandising.
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:38.640
Yeah, that's great.
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:39.680
You can add that to the ticket.
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:41.119
We do BYOB tickets.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.400
That's a quick, that's a cheap, easy way to tease up a ticket.
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:45.599
Merchandising.
00:17:45.839 --> 00:18:00.079
Now, because you're building events, sponsors are way more interested in you having people in a physical location than worrying about the effect of having a digital download be heard, have that message retained.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:01.759
They want to be part of things.
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:07.519
So now you're layering, you got ticket sales, merchandise, BYOB tickets are easy, right?
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.240
Now sponsors start to come and they want to sponsor the event.
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:12.960
Maybe it's a mixer, a meetup, a business community.
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:17.440
Now you're bringing in accountants, you know, you're bringing in people who may sponsor the event.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:18.960
They're gonna have signage.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:27.839
You can sell signage, you can sell ad space on the ticket sales, you can then you know give mention from the stage, give mention the recording.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:30.480
You can even add a banner on your website.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:36.640
You can then add uh a read into the podcast that you're gonna distribute as an MP3 file anyway.
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.720
Now you've layered all these opportunities from the start.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:47.599
You start with this, you start with monetization and you build it up like a sandwich, you know, keep stacking on layers.
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:56.720
It's it's brilliant because I can guarantee you 98% of people who start a podcast, monetization is the last thing that they're thinking about.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:16.480
They're thinking about, well, this is the thing that I want to do, how I want to sound, how are you know, all the other aspects that go into the creation of it, but they're not thinking about because the money aspect, because you sink a ton of money into creating a podcast, especially if you're doing it in your own home, because you don't and if it's live, it's video, that's even more because you got to have the rig to run it, you have to have cameras, microphones.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.480
If you've got a guest, you have to have multiple microphones.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:20.880
And you've if you don't know how to do this, you've got to learn all this stuff.
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:34.160
There's such an investment in it to be able to start it on the ground with monetization already in place, where profit is not just a hope, but it's a it's almost a requirement uh in your space.
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:35.680
That's it's freaking brilliant, man.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.400
I love it.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:37.440
Thank you.
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:38.960
I it's and it's very important to me.
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:45.440
I want like I've been a content creator, I've been grinding and hustling in you know, 2015, 2016.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:56.319
I'm producing shows, trivia shows aren't easy too, because it's a couple hours to write questions, a couple hours to book guests, a couple hours to record, it's some more time to edit.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:03.359
Like, there's an investment in there, and I love doing it, and but I also am I'm giving a service to people.
00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:06.960
How do I monetize that in a way that's not gross?
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:16.640
Like, I don't want to just sit there and read like purple mattress ads on the no respect to purple mattress, but I don't want to just I don't want to just read ads because I they're gonna give me money.
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.160
I want to give an experience, I want it to be a fair trade.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:29.680
I want you to come to my theater to see a show because you like what they're talking about, you like the content, you like the people, you want to support local creators.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:31.920
That's a fair trade, like a 10 bucks.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:32.799
Okay, great.
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.319
I'll I'll do that all day long to support local content creators.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:51.039
And and I think that's a much fairer trade than like like you know, read it, like not the better help or purple mattress or or you know, me undies is a bad ad read, but like it's also not it doesn't fit every show.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.279
Every show doesn't need to have advertisements.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.839
There are better ways to to give an exchange of value to your audience.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:15.920
Well, one of the things that I've noticed as a business who is trying to get the word out there of my business is that if I want to sponsor something on a podcast that has a larger, not even necessarily a larger reach, to say if I want to go on to something that that's on, you know, uh sponsored on Apple or whatever, my investment as a as a sponsor is astronomical.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:24.480
Whereas if I came to your space and there was a podcast that aligned its audience with what I was trying to sell in the first place, I could be like, I'll give you 500 bucks.
00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:35.039
I don't know any small podcast or even like medium-sized podcast that won't just turn down that'll turn down$500 just on the table just for having a banner or for saying the name of my business out there.
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:41.519
It's such a great opportunity for smaller businesses to invest in something that speaks to an audience that is pretty dedicated.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.440
So finding that smaller podcast that you're like, these people are, these are where my people are at.
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:49.200
And then as a smaller business, say, hey, would you guys like to be sponsored?
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:56.160
Or in the opposite direction, it's the podcast coming to the sponsor and saying, Hey, I've got this live show that's going on for a minimal investment.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.200
It's not tens of thousands of dollars, it's 500, 2,000 bucks.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.279
Yeah, it it's it's part of the community too.
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:04.799
It's it's local people.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:13.039
I mean, a lot more says, hey, I'm part of this town than I'm supporting these people in this town doing this thing at the theater in my town.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:23.039
Like it's you can't tie, you can have a better tie, and you can't get that from just broadcasting TV ads or or download people still advertise in the newspaper.
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:46.480
You know, it's not you can have these experiential events, and that really is the future of as in as the internet gets more and more segmented, and people get more and more disgusted by like AI swap and content from AI bots and comments from AI bots, they're rejecting that, and they're being drove to real life events in in mass right now.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:56.480
And now these places like theaters, comedy clubs, um, small bars, restaurants, they're booming because people want real life experiences.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:03.279
And if you're a local business, that's where your attention should be in these experiential events into the future.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:04.319
Absolutely.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:07.279
So let's zoom out from podcasting specifically.
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:17.039
The idea of design the arena instead of just the content applies to any creative entrepreneurs, it could be photographers, designers, makers, or artists.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:19.680
So, what's the broader lesson here?
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:27.359
How does a creative solopreneur start thinking like an arena architect instead of just another performer chasing metrics?
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.079
Oh, that's a great question.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:35.759
The um you want to think like thinking about these uh thinking outside the box, right?
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:38.799
I started with you know, what is a podcast?
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:46.960
And a podcast was an MP3 file distributed by an RSS feed to uh aggregator app and people could you know could download it.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.759
What I start thinking is when is a podcast?
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:51.279
Where is a podcast?
00:23:51.519 --> 00:24:17.920
So these other questions about podcasting to expand that definition way before podcasting became you know a video on YouTube, or you know, now it's TV shows on Netflix or called podcasts, before the definition of podcasts expanded, taking the basics, the roots of what a podcast is, and building well beyond that, not just that MP3 file, these other experiences, the other events that we're talking about.
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.559
There are so many ways and directions that you can expand a podcast.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:28.400
Some podcasts right now are keynotes and conferences, they're part of bigger events.
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:32.480
There's you know, local libraries are always looking for people to come in.
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:36.960
There are so many events and things happening in a community that involve podcasting.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.640
That's just a little bit outside your definition of what a podcast is.
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:50.000
That if you took that maybe to a bookstore, maybe to a coffee shop and did that show in front of that audience, you're expanding what a podcast can be.
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:55.519
You're thinking way outside the box of where you can take it and how far you can take it.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.319
Yeah, it's it's it's a great way to expand on that.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:24:58.720
Absolutely.
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.039
So you work in digital marketing by day and you built this podcast theater at night.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.599
So a lot of creative entrepreneurs feel like they have to choose.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.559
It's either stability or their creative vision.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:10.240
But you're walking both paths here.
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:12.160
So what's that actually like?
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:17.519
And what would you tell someone who feels guilty for not going all in on their creative dreams?
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:18.559
Yeah, I love it.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:20.960
I mean, I uh I do this, I've been doing this.
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.720
I've actually been doing digital marketing since like 1997.
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:35.680
I I had a skate shop at one of the like first male order skateboard companies in the early 2000s, and I I just worked 12, 14 hours a day, like like because that's what you're supposed to do when you have a business.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:42.079
And I you know, over time I got I settled down, married kids, stable job.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:47.440
And you know, that that my focus during those times were the kids, the family, the stable job.
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:57.200
And I still love my job, I love my family, but my my daughters are getting older, so I've opened up a lot of free time, and now you know it was Jeff.
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:01.599
Like I'm trying to bring back Jeff a little bit and and have these experiences.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:12.640
And what I want to do is lose my train of thought completely, and then continue talking without disrupting the flow of the whatever the question was.
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.759
I'm still you're gonna let me sit here and you're let me suffer again.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:17.920
If you'd like, I can tell you what the question is.
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:22.559
So it's it's I just love it when you're just like I'll spitball here.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:24.319
What's what's what is it?
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:25.920
Okay, so you've actually honestly answered it.
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:32.640
I was just asking you like, what's it take for someone to get over the feeling of guilt for not pursuing their all-in dreams?
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:49.680
Like, like you're you're walking a tightrope of responsibility and dreaming, and so like, but obviously you're making both work, you know, you're still responsible, you're a father, you've got a real job, you're bringing in the income, but at the same time, you're like, I'm gonna I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna be creative at the same time.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:57.279
So, like, how do you combat that inner voice that's always telling you, no, no, no, it's either one or the other, you can't do both.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:26:58.480
Two things.
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:00.720
One, I I'll I will go through my schedule.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:05.839
Um, I'm I'm a big part of this is dedicated time for this, and this is dedicated time for that.
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:10.319
But funny enough, when I was turned 48, I gave myself an ultimatum.
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:14.559
Like, I am so tired of talking about the infinite seat theater.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:16.880
I need to know if this is a real thing or not.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:20.799
Like, I presented in a pod fest, I've been talking about it for seven years.
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:26.160
I was like, okay, I'm just gonna do it for a couple years, then I'll know if it's a real thing or not.
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:31.519
So, you know, my daughter was graduating, my first daughter was graduating high school, so she was going off to college.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:36.240
My uh other daughter is a sophomore now, and I'm like, okay, they need me less and less.
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.640
This is the time to experiment and figure it out.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:43.039
So, you know, one, I I didn't do it until I gave myself permission.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.400
So I was tired of talking about it, and I need to know an answer.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:53.200
Like, I don't want to go to the grave just wondering what if and still talking about the infinite sea theater in my 80s.
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:54.480
I I want to do this.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:55.279
Now's the time.
00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:57.359
I'm I'm so young, I'm so healthy.
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:58.720
Let's do it.
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:12.480
And then when I do that, like, okay, now I still have a full-time job, and I got this theater that I'm running now in the evenings and weekends, but I really I do segment and I structure things very well.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:18.319
Like I record my podcast Tuesdays and Saturdays, Tuesdays at 7 p.m., Saturdays at 10 a.m.
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:23.519
And then within 24 hours the next day, I have it edited and ready for distribution.
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:30.000
So other than then, if there's shows in the evening, you know, I work all day, I go to the theater, I produce a show, and I come home.
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.359
I I'm really, really structured in how I do things.
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:39.119
Like Monday is a day for just doing podcast interviews in the evening from 6 to 10.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.279
I just try to book as many shows as I can.
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:44.160
And Monday is my podcast interview day.
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:51.519
And it's really about scheduling that time and giving yourself permission, you know, balancing it correctly with your family.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:57.200
Ten years ago, when my daughters were five and nine, I still had to put them to bed at night.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.319
I still had to feed them, you know, get all those things.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:02.960
So I didn't start recording till nine or ten at night.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.079
And that was that was for that was right for me at that time.
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:10.079
But now they're like, they don't, you know, they're teenagers, they don't want to care about dad.
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.400
You know, dad, go do your thing.
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:18.720
And uh my problem is I record during the day because if I record with them at home, it sounds like elephants kind of like standing above my head.
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.119
So I'm like, no, let's do these school hours so that I can at least have some time.
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:23.680
That's perfect.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:24.720
I I understand you.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:25.039
Yeah.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:33.839
So for adventurers listening who want to learn more about what you're building, or maybe even bring their podcast to a live stage, where can they find you?
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.759
Yeah, two places padooty.com, pody.com.
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.000
It's got one letter less than Netflix.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:44.880
Are you gonna type seven letters to get entertainment or type six to go to podooty.com?
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:47.599
I have everything I talked about is on that site.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.359
Uh, I you can see upcoming events, you can see the exact business model.
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:52.480
I don't have anything.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:57.440
I publish it so that you know that what I'm saying, that my word is my most valuable currency.
00:29:57.680 --> 00:29:59.279
And also my site, check me out.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:01.119
You want to look at jeffrovilla.com.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:03.039
I got all kinds of photos of me on there.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:06.240
Jeffrovilla, R-E-V-I-L-L-A.com.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:16.000
And you'll learn about my history, you'll see the appearances I'm on, especially this podcast, because I'll I'll write uh I write a little post about every show I'm on and how it relates to what I'm building.
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:19.519
And I'm I'm just excited, just excited to do this.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.559
Reach out to me.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:22.960
There's forms on every page on Padutie.
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:26.160
I will help you figure out how to do this in your town.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.240
I don't need you to come to Pittsburgh.
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:37.519
There's plenty of bars, restaurants, coffee shops, libraries in your hometown that are looking for activities, they're looking to bring people through their front door.
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:40.559
We'll start and we'll figure out how to do that.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:45.279
And if you don't want to talk to me, I do have a book on Amazon that talks about all of this.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.279
So just Google my name, Jeff Revilla.
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:48.559
It's the first thing that pops up.
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:50.880
Uh, the new business model for podcasting.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.640
Awesome, excellent.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:58.720
And that fellow adventurers is what it sounds like when an arena architect shares the blueprints.
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:03.440
So I want to thank Jeff for pulling up a chair tonight and naming something most creators never see.
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.000
The metrics mirage is a trap.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:12.640
Chasing downloads, feeding algorithms, performing on platforms you don't know, that is not a path to success.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:16.480
It's a path to exhaustion while someone else profits from your work.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:18.480
So here's what I want you to take from tonight.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:23.759
The creators who win aren't always the ones with the most content or the biggest following.
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:29.279
Sometimes they're the ones who stopped chasing the mirage and started building their own arena instead.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:31.839
You don't have to be a podcaster to apply this.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:39.039
Photographers can build venues, designers can create showcases, makers can construct retail experiences.
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.319
The principle's the same.
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:43.440
Whoever builds the stage controls the game.
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:57.599
If Jeff's story resonated with you, check out what he's building over at Padooty.com as well as Jeffrevilla.com and start asking yourself, what would it look like if to design your own arena instead of just performing in someone else's?
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.200
So until next time, remember, business is an adventure.
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:03.119
Don't be an NPC.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:04.319
Thank you.
