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00:00:05.040Welcome to the latest episode of the Future Print Podcast.
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00:00:06.000Marcus Timpson here.
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00:00:11.679Happy to have back with us today Javier Cotada from Kento Digital.
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00:00:13.119He's the CEO of the business.
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00:00:15.039Welcome back to the Future Print Podcast.
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00:00:16.559Hello, Marcus.
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00:00:27.359Thank you for this opportunity to share the Kento um project with uh with your with your customers and with your uh thank you, mate.
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00:00:34.159Yeah, and it's one of those rare occasions that you're actually in you know the office, right?
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00:00:42.000Because you you you you're a big traveler, you're all over the world, you're a globetrotter, you're um a dynamic business leader.
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00:00:48.479Kento is uh a leading innovator in the field, really, for digital, particularly for corrugated.
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00:00:58.240Before we get into how this year's been for you and so on, give us a little bit of an introduction about yourself, Javier, and how you got to this point.
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00:00:58.560Yeah.
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00:01:03.119As you said, I'm always on the road, and I like it.
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00:01:05.599So just uh evangelizing about Kento.
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00:01:12.799My um my profile is a little bit different from uh other uh equipment manufacturers.
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00:01:31.439Uh I've been most of my professional career um in the corrugated business, so producing and selling boxes, corrugated boxes, very, very specialized with companies with big and not so big companies like uh Saika, DSmith, and some other independents for almost 20 years.
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00:01:39.920So now I'm on the other side going to um equipment manufacturing with this idea of uh hybrid from uh from Kenton.
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00:01:50.239And as you said, my job basically is uh traveling around the world, basically uh Europe and uh in America, uh talking about our technology.
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00:01:56.159Yeah, and um I know you've been on a journey and um making big strides forward with it.
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00:02:02.319Give us a bit of a picture from your perspective as to the marketplace before we get into the technology.
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00:02:03.040Yes.
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00:02:11.120The world is this year perhaps coming to terms with the sort of uncertainty and unpredictability of things.
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00:02:14.960How's the corrugated industry from your perspective?
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00:02:30.879So, corrugated industry is very, very closely related to economic activity, where there is a lot of economic activity, there is always a lot of corrugated, okay, as uh as many other packaging uh industries.
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00:02:38.400Okay, so the word for me this last year is being what you said, we just said uncertainty.
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00:02:48.560So it's there is a lot of questions uh about the um the economic situation, both in for different reasons, I think, both in Europe and America.
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00:02:56.879We're our target now is um develop uh Western world, also Latin America and some Middle East.
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00:03:04.719Okay, and um and what I what we are seeing and corrugated industry has been always uh cyclical, always.
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00:03:19.199So after COVID, it was uh crazy, very, very high improved uh growth for corrugated linked to increasing activity in the food industry, you know, this that is very important for corrugated.
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00:03:32.719Now it's uh slower moment in Europe because the motors of the uh of the of the continent like uh Germany, France, UK, I mean, not are not in the best moment.
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00:03:43.759And in America, because of uh the uncertainty about tariffs, and you know, the Americans, the the US import most of the equipment from Europe and Asia.
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00:03:53.599So there's a lot of questions about what is going to happen, and that that's not helping uh the industry, corrugated industry, and at the same time, of course, us, because this is our market.
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00:03:55.439No, that's the situation today.
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00:04:08.800This is also combined with the two major mergers or acquisitions that happened in the last year: IP um acquiring D Smith and uh Smorfit acquiring Westrock.
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00:04:33.360That's also they are adapting and they are uh in transition, so they are also in a let's say in a low um uh moment for investment, no reduced capex, and that's also impacting not only us, but all all the industry, or like companies like Bob's uh announce uh not very good numbers, and that's that but that's been always like this, always in the industry, like cycles up and down.
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00:04:40.000Yeah, and and I think clearly after the COVID period and during it, it was a big boom, right?
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00:04:42.000For Corrugated at that point.
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00:04:45.360It was like suddenly huge volume demand and so on.
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00:04:49.519And that's I guess reached a plateau, and then now the uncertainty and so on.
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00:04:51.439Tell us a bit about Kentax.
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00:04:57.600I I wonder whether your innovation and your technology, in a way, help solve some of these problems.
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00:04:58.480Is that is that right?
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00:05:02.079Tell us a bit because you because you're very much about hybrid, aren't you?
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00:05:03.199Yes, yes.
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00:05:11.759So uh you know we have been talking about digital printing in the corrugated industry for decades now.
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00:05:26.480So when I when I joined for the first time uh the industry, I was with Saika, my colleagues, um senior colleagues were already discussing like almost 20 years ago, digital is coming and it's going to take over everything.
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00:05:33.199The truth is that today, after many years, um the situation is not as expected.
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00:05:36.879And there are very for me very, very clear uh reasons for that.
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00:05:39.120Three main barriers for digital.
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00:05:46.079No, the first one is um is cost of printing, cost of digital ink, but it's it's very high.
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00:05:58.160And many of our competitors, their business model is based on inks, selling inks basically, okay, similar to the commercial printing or the domestic uh printers we have at home.
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00:06:10.800Okay, that's the first reason, and that's why we developed the concept of hybrid, okay, to reduce the use of digital ink, using digital ink only for high graphics and using flexo inks for solid colors.
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00:06:15.680Okay, that is very common in uh shelf-ready packaging or all kinds of corrugated packaging.
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00:06:20.800That's the first reason, the first barrier that we need to overcome, and we use the hybrid concept.
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00:06:22.639The second is CapEx.
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00:06:27.360Uh, the printers, digital printers, single pass printers are very expensive.
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00:06:32.000So it's uh investments ranging from four to six, seven million euros.
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00:06:36.959And that's that's a very high number for many of corrugated players.
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00:06:41.279Okay, so that Kento developed the modularity scalability concept.
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00:06:52.160So we can start offering a low-entry machine that the customer can make grow with time when the market is growing or whether they learn more about digital.
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00:06:53.519That's the second barrier.
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00:06:58.160And the second, the third barrier is converting in line.
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00:07:00.879To produce a box, it's not only printing a box.
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00:07:04.800You need to print, you p you need to die cut, you need to glue, you need to fold.
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00:07:06.720Okay, different different steps.
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00:07:13.920Uh, to compare a digital machine with an analog machine, you need to add the converting in line feature.
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00:07:20.319Only, I would say, no more than 10% of boxes are printed and die cut it offline.
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00:07:27.920Okay, what we are offering in the market uh as Kento is also the possibility of adding a rotary die cutting in line.
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00:07:32.720So we can compare, we can really compare our machine with analog machines.
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00:07:36.959We what we are doing, trying to do is complement, not replace.
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00:07:38.800We are a perfect companion.
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00:07:44.639Our machines are perfect companions for machines like Bob's, gopher, printing and die cutting in line.
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00:07:57.120Okay, so and in the future, I think uh our technology will be used and is being used for short and medium runs and the analog machines for longer runs that they have been designed for.
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00:07:58.079Yeah, yeah.
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00:08:01.920Okay, so so it's um quite a a number of factors there.
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00:08:05.040And I I love the modularity and the fact that it complements.
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00:08:05.920Exactly.
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00:08:12.160So so it's not it's not fair to say this really is a disruptive technology, it is actually a complementary one.
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00:08:16.160It's a combination of technologies, so it's innovation by combination.
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00:08:21.920So we combine digital with flexo and rotary die-cutting in the in one line.
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00:08:29.360So that makes possible to produce a box to one pass from a board and printed board to a finished die-cut box.
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00:08:30.000Yeah, yeah.
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00:08:35.039Um, and what kind of applications within corrugated is this being used for out of interest?
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00:08:39.039Because there's there's a number of different ways of deploying digital, isn't there?
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00:08:40.720What kind of applications really?
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00:08:48.720Yeah, the corrugated basically like 60% of uh corrugated is uh used for food and beverages.
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00:08:58.080So that's the main that's the main target of uh there's also, of course, industrial products and e-commerce is entering the market very strong after COVID.
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00:08:59.039That was crazy.
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00:09:01.519So now it's coming back to normal numbers.
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00:09:11.279Okay, um, but this this is uh this is helping corrugated to keep uh um constant growth since decades.
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00:09:18.159Okay, so corrugated is growing thanks to e-commerce and plastic replacement.
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00:09:22.799Okay, corrugated is paper, fully recyclable, very friendly with the environment.
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00:09:30.480Okay, and all all uh fast-moving consumer good companies are trying to replace plastic with corrugated.
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00:09:42.320Not everything is possible to be replaced by paper-based uh packaging, but it's growing the transition from plastic to paper-based uh packaging, and corrugated is there.
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00:09:43.279Yeah, yeah.
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00:09:54.080And sustainability, so that's coming from the brands and retailers, they're wanting to be as effective as possible with their um sustainability metrics and so on.
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00:09:59.200Corrugated is corrugated is a total circular economy system.
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00:10:08.000So you you produce paper out of waste paper or forests, and forests are sustainable themselves.
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00:10:18.320From you produce the with paper, you produce corrugated packaging, and corrugated packaging is fully recyclable again, going back to the cycle.
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00:10:24.159Okay, so it's very, very sustainable compared to any other uh packaging in the market.
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00:10:25.840Yeah, it's a good point.
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00:10:33.360And with that in mind, really, I mean, given the uncertainty and the challenges in the industry, does that mean that you continue to innovate?
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00:10:39.039Is it still something you any news on that front in terms of new things and new developments?
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00:10:39.440Yeah.
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00:10:40.080Yes.
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00:10:46.399So so last year, last couple of years, we developed the um the rotary die cutting and modularity uh concept.
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00:10:50.960Uh we have already one machine installed with a rotary die cutting in line.
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00:11:02.559Um, the last innovation that we uh have uh developed and we are testing now, we are in testing, we have produced a machine, a hybrid machine using water-based inks.
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00:11:03.039Okay.
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00:11:17.519Um the the reason why uh we decided uh to develop this machine is the same as uh the reason why we developed the hybrid concept is reducing cost of printing.
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00:11:25.120Water-based inks have have a potential for lower cost and lower selling selling price.
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00:11:38.879Okay, so because they are not using very expensive raw materials like um like photo initiators that you need for UV uh UV inks, okay, that are most of the machines, digital machines in the market.
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00:11:46.799So we are building now our our first uh prototype, our first alpha machine, hybrid machine using um water-based inks.
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00:11:48.480We are having a different approach.
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00:11:53.519There are a couple of manufacturers and many Chinese in the market using water-based inks.
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00:11:56.720We are using uh having a different approach.
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00:12:04.399Uh, we want to minimize um some of the problems related to water-based inks in digital.
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00:12:10.320Okay, these problems are basically very high cost of energy, okay, and that's important.
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00:12:21.039Energy is getting more and more expensive worldwide, and also um very difficult to have uh reliable and long lifespan printheads.
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00:12:23.919Printheads are the most expensive part of a digital press.
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00:12:28.480Okay, so we are using high viscosity water-based inks.
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00:12:36.879These high viscosity, uh high viscosity water-based inks reduce the amount of water, okay, not using any kind of photo initiator.
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00:12:41.200Okay, we are drying just with heat, with infrared lamps, okay.
00:12:41.440 -->
00:12:52.559And um, what we are getting, the advantage of using high viscosity inks, is much easier to dry, less energy needed, and more color because there's less water.
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00:13:01.039When you are using water-based inks, you increase the humidity of the paper of the corrugated, and then you have to remove it again.
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00:13:05.840Okay, so that's damaging, uh, can damage the structure of the corrugated.
00:13:06.159 -->
00:13:09.679What we are trying to do is use as less water as possible.
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00:13:12.960That's why this high viscosity ink uh technology.
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00:13:16.879I think we are we are very optimistic about the potential of this in the market.
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00:13:23.519This the first machine will be installed in um in Europe uh first quarter next year.
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00:13:27.679And from second quarter and next year, this machine will be available in the market.
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00:13:39.200Always hybrid machine, keeping all the advantages of our technology, hybrid, flexo, digital, digital water base, and rotary day cutting line and total modularity.
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00:13:47.279Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that'll be really popular because it provides, like you say, efficiency gains, but also it's more sustainable, more environmentally positive.
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00:13:51.840Yes, it is, it is water-based inks um are more sustainable.
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00:13:56.559Um, but we we don't want to our target is not to replace, it's give the two options.
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00:14:03.200Okay, for some markets, UV, especially UV LED inks with very low energy consumption is a good option.
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00:14:07.519Okay, for some markets, water-based are a better alternative.
00:14:07.679 -->
00:14:12.320So that has to be adapted to different markets and different potential customers.
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00:14:12.799Right.
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00:14:15.279Well, that's an exciting development for next year already.
00:14:15.440 -->
00:14:26.559And I guess looking ahead to next year, any sort of thoughts on how the market might change or any new technology or or or impressions you might have that you would like to share, really, looking into 2026?
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00:14:34.480I don't expect any um uh much innovation in both in analog and digital.
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00:14:40.159So the truth is that we are we have not seen a lot of innovation in the last uh years.
00:14:40.480 -->
00:14:50.639The most important innovation has been digital printing for core video, but it's not been very what I would I would uh consider a big success.
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00:14:57.440Okay, so like 200 machines worldwide in a 10-15 years period is not a big success.
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00:15:14.080So it's I think what we are doing is a real innovation, and I I I would expect that there will be some more uh innovation in the future, but I'm I'm not very optimistic about the near future, about big innovations in the in the industry.
00:15:14.240 -->
00:15:19.679It's a very polygated and paper industry, it's a very, very conservative uh industry.
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00:15:24.240So I'm not very open to innovation, right?
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00:15:24.720Right.
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00:15:33.279And I guess it's the key is finding the the early adopters who you know, the ones that are really leading the way and prepared to try things out and so on.
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00:15:39.519Once they start really, really making big gains, then I guess the rest of the market will follow.
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00:15:44.559We are talking to a lot of different players, to the big guys, and also to the independents.
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00:16:00.639I think innovation, all the independents, uh, they should focus on some kind of a specialization when fighting or when competing with the big, big these these big companies are bigger and bigger every year.
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00:16:06.000Okay, so the the independents, the family-owned businesses, they have to do something different.
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00:16:10.159Okay, and that goes in line with innovation and technology innovation.
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00:16:17.919So most of our customers, all of them now are independent companies, okay, are family-owned companies that they want to do something different.
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00:16:29.759Now we are in discussions with the big guys that also they, of course, they need innovation, but their priority normally is volume, more than value, okay, in the in the corrugated side, okay.
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00:16:34.960Most of them are paper companies, it's it's where they have most of their innovation, okay.
00:16:35.120 -->
00:16:42.559And but for us, our main market is still independent companies that they want to do something different and look for value.
00:16:42.879 -->
00:16:43.919Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:16:44.159 -->
00:16:46.000Well, listen, thank thanks for thanks for that.
00:16:46.320 -->
00:16:56.720It's um exciting to hear things developing and and and you continuing to innovate and I guess in some ways challenge people to change their way of thinking.
00:16:56.879 -->
00:17:06.640I think often it's about having a strategic digital mind, and eventually the industry will the larger ones will need to tip, but I guess for them it's more disruptive.
00:17:06.799 -->
00:17:09.920They're like you say, they're conservative, they find it.
00:17:11.599 -->
00:17:16.720It's very important to understand the industry, to know what our customers are looking for.
00:17:16.880 -->
00:17:21.599Very important because the market is changing and evolving and they need to adapt.
00:17:21.759 -->
00:17:25.599Okay, so it's very, very important for us, and that's that's we are our team.
00:17:25.680 -->
00:17:33.359We have um uh big part of the team is uh our people coming from the cognitive industry, understanding very well the industry.
00:17:33.599 -->
00:17:34.799Yeah, no, that's important.
00:17:34.880 -->
00:17:35.599So I agree.
00:17:35.680 -->
00:17:39.839If it's coming from the print technology only side, you're not you're innovating probably.
00:17:40.160 -->
00:17:41.039It has to be a combination.
00:17:41.119 -->
00:17:46.480It has to be a combination, a good combination, yeah, a mixture of both, a hybrid approach indeed.
00:17:46.640 -->
00:17:46.720Yes.
00:17:46.960 -->
00:17:48.960Well, listen well listen, thanks.
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00:17:50.079Thanks for joining us, Hubby.
00:17:50.160 -->
00:17:50.960I really appreciate that.
00:17:51.279 -->
00:17:56.079You're going to be involved, Pento will be involved at Future Print in Valentia next year, 29th to 13th.
00:17:56.319 -->
00:17:57.599We will look forward to it.
00:17:57.920 -->
00:17:58.799Looking forward to it.
00:17:59.119 -->
00:18:00.240It'll be a really good event.
00:18:00.319 -->
00:18:03.039And um, in the meanwhile, thank you for joining us today.
00:18:03.279 -->
00:18:03.759Thank you very much.
00:18:04.000 -->
00:18:07.440Have yeah, thank you, bye bye, have a good day.
