Antonayah Ellis (00:01)
Welcome to the Exceptional Educators podcast by FrenalyticsEDU, where innovation meets inclusion in education. I'm your co-host, Antonayah Ellis.
Matt Giovanniello (00:10)
and I'm Matt Giovanniello, the CEO and Co-Founder of Frenalytics. At Frenalytics, we put special education and English language learners front and center. Our award-winning FrenalyticsEDU platform helps streamline progress monitoring, improve communication and compliance, and offers truly personalized learning to your students of all abilities.
Antonayah Ellis (00:29)
Each episode of our podcast features candid conversations with district and school leaders, classroom changemakers, ed tech founders, and industry executives, all dedicated to transforming learning for each student, especially our learners with unique abilities. With a focus on extraordinary educators and the exceptional students they serve, we explore the latest in special education, accessible technology, and inclusive leadership. In this episode, exceptional educators is exceptionally thrilled to welcome Dr. Patrick Sullivan.
Superintendent of Liberty Central School District in Sullivan County, New York. Since 2021, he's been leading the district through a major transformation from implementing a compressive or comprehensive, oh my gosh, comprehensive multi-tiered system of supports to building inclusive programs for multilingual and special education students. With a background from teaching, student services and district leadership, Dr. Sullivan brings both heart and strategy to improving outcomes for every learner.
Welcome to the podcast, Patrick. We're so happy to have you.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (01:32)
Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.
Antonayah Ellis (01:35)
So we like to start off our podcast pretty much the same, probably a question you've heard a thousand times. What is your why? What has brought you to education and what keeps you in this space?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (01:46)
Well, prior to education, was actually in the business world. I worked for Citibank for some time and then coming from a family of educators. And I always say that it was my point of rebelling against my parents. My mother was a school administrator. My father was a teacher. And after a couple of years of realizing that working in the leasing industry didn't fulfill my why as a person. So ultimately,
⁓ Supporting those around you is the basis of my why, but again, most importantly, and through the lens of leadership is, and I love Simon Sinek's work with this, we've all, know, leaders eat last and such. ⁓ But ultimately, as a leader, ⁓ the why is to create innovative systems to support each and every person that's part of that system in one way or another.
And having that why to do that is to create opportunity. Opportunity that those around us don't realize yet maybe that they have this opportunity. So opening those doors is the most fulfilling experience for anyone in the field of education.
Matt Giovanniello (03:10)
I love your why, Patrick. And I think it speaks to the heart of educators and administrators everywhere that there's so much fulfillment in this work. Not everybody is in it just for the money. I think rarely people are, but there's so much more to it than just that financial component that lets you walk away and feel good about the work that you're doing and affecting such change for our next generation of learners. I think you point out a really important piece, and it's something that adds Antonayah introduced you to speaks to the heart of your work at Liberty Central, which is
building those supports for students who so desperately need it that maybe traditionally have slipped through the cracks a little bit over the years, over the past couple of decades. What I'm alluding to is your transformational change around MTSS. So walk us through the past couple of years of what your implementation strategy for your multi-tiered systems of support have looked at across the district, what considerations you've had and where you stand right now and what work is still left to do.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (04:04)
So Liberty began their journey of multi-tiered systems of support model back in 2017. Prior to that was RTI. When I first joined Liberty as the Assistant Director of Student Services, I noticed a systematic need. We weren't implementing a formidable systems of support.
So created an RTI task force with multiple stakeholders to identify our needs. But luckily at the time, New York State was providing an opportunity for, I don't want say it was a monetary grant, but it was a grant of services, knowledge, and professional learning with the New York State Response to Intervention Technical Assistance Center when it was with SUNY Buffalo. So we had a wonderful consultant that worked with us who worked for a local college with Mount St. Mary College, Dr. Joan Miller.
So she expanded our understanding of what an MTSS system looks like from exemplars from throughout the state and from other states. We get caught up with what's in New York. I believe it was Georgia had four tiers. Imagine like four tiers. What is four tiers? It's supposed to be three, but just looking at things from a different perspective. So with that, we build a leadership team. And I was mostly working with our middle school at the time because that's where the need was.
Because of the regulatory requirements for an RTI model, the elementary school was in a pretty solid place. And a high school, no matter where you are, ⁓ a high school model was always a challenge in secondary schools because of the regions-based requirements, the testing requirements, and those standardized assessments that students need to graduate. So we went through a process to build capacity
with the middle school and get an understanding and create a succinct implementation plans and goals for each year. We evaluated our current screener. How are we using that? And we noticed that the screener didn't have a progress monitoring tool. So we conducted pilots. We evaluated multiple screeners. And we...
identified one that we no longer use and that's a whole other story and that's where sometimes certain changes of resources impact your behaviors depending on what partners you have in working in school systems. But during that time we administered perception surveys, we reviewed our current screener data that we were, ⁓ the data from our current screener at that time that we had.
And we work to build capacity for the faculty of the middle school. What is MTSS? And what is the purpose behind it? And what does it look like? And let it be of implementing and introducing a post benchmark data analysis protocol and walking the faculty through that process and the building leadership at the time.
Identifying and explaining what progress monitoring is and synergizing all that together of what's our purpose. But looking at the need of the district and of that building, we had to identify manageable data cut points to work from because, you know, for years our proficiency rates were in the mid 25%. So looking at the pyramid in general, there was more of a need of what the system can currently handle. So
What we did is we evaluated the whole system, we looked at our structures, and I'll get into that next, and then which strategies will we leverage. So, and I can go on a lot with this because it's been, as you can see, almost 10 years of work that we've been doing this. So we looked at what our schedule provides and created specific, now people call them WIN periods. We had an MTSS period. We wanted to adjust the schedule to get more students access to the interventions.
Then at that time as well, if a student was receiving what was noted as AIS services, that student would be in that service all year, in that class all year. So that student will meet its market proficiency while you have other students still just getting tier one support and not being moved into ⁓ classrooms or intervention based classrooms.
for additional supports that help them grow. So we created a more fluid system. So each student is getting what they need. The notion then was that if you were a student with disability in IEP or if you're a multi-language learner, you didn't get those services because you had services through the student services offices and with the multi-language learners or the L's at the time as terms have shifted. So we changed that.
these students need support with reading as well. So we made sure that those students received intervention services as well. So as I moved up throughout the district and as assistant superintendent and as we started getting traction to middle school, we started evaluating the other schools, the elementary school and the high school. Now I was not the assistant superintendent when we started this. I was either the assistant principal, the middle school or the assistant director, but
Kind of what I call the reverse ripple effect, right? So was kind of pushing those above me that we need to do this to support our students to keep this initiative moving forward. we all know that it takes time for a culture shift. It takes, they say, three to five years. But sometimes it takes more, especially when there's transition and leadership roles and having new faculty members come in, people retiring, things of et cetera.
Filing that we created our MTSS plan is the framework and wanted to balance a district-wide structure and framework, but giving the building some autonomy within that. So each building has created their own plan, which goes to some work that we're doing that aligns with the district process.
In our evaluations, and this is when I was assistant superintendent, we would start our vertical articulation meetings and would meet with our teacher leaders from K through six and then seven through 12 to identify what do we need. And this was around the 2020-2021 school year. And after identifying the common needs, after we analyzed state data, screener data, what standards are we struggling the most?
regarding mathematics and with reading. But there is also a social emotional executive functioning components as well. So where we are today, and I'll bring it all to where we are, is we identified that we needed to systematize our interventions and our tier one, tier two, and tier three interventions. Because
We wanted to ensure that if a student was in third grade and was having a struggle with some type of, with a specific skill that they weren't reaching a standard, they had the same similar programming from one grade to the next. Cause if they, when we say graduate or move out of getting tier one and tier two services and just receiving tier one, let's say in third or fourth grade and they move to the next grade and they're having a challenge because rigor increases on the demands of the new standards that need to be addressed. ⁓
We wanted the students not to learn a different program. We wanted them just to focus on what they needed to learn to be better at their reading and to close those skill gaps. And so that was one indicator to systematically align our interventions for tier one. so what we did is we implemented HMH curriculum into reading into math system, excuse me, read 180, and then read 180 code, which is system 44. And then we have into math.
And that was done in a collaborative way of working with our teacher leaders and our teacher teams to identify which curriculum. And ultimately, the implementation process is always a challenge. So to help us systematize implementation, we created an effective implementation protocol to give a structure of making sure that we're having check-ins, we're building capacity, we're evaluating. And then as a result, and to make sure that it's happening, district administration and all administrators conduct walk-throughs.
to ensure what we've invested our time and energy and built capacity on is being implemented in ways that we can support better implementation and other supports to reflect. So as we've been implementing this in this curriculum for some time and the interventions, we had to shift back to the old screener. We had to shift to another progress monitoring type tool. And that's still been a challenge for us is the progress monitoring piece, because it is very extract to people.
that points in time to have that every couple weeks to check in to assess where the student is and then the transition and important to have a transition process from a student that's receiving these tier two interventions just to receive tier one and not tier one and tier two and tier three. So we took part in that but the MTSS system isn't just academics and it kind of ties into some other items that we can touch upon.
is we found a graphic in Ed Week years ago of a multi-triangle diagram that looks to not only support academic needs, but also the social-emotional needs. So we implemented an SEL screener. We have different levels based as the screener and our post-benchmark protocols for social-emotional needs. And there's other data points that we reference of a student needs counseling all the way up to tier three, which would be a behavior intervention plan of some sort. On top of that,
We identified, and this is really where we're hyper-focused right now, is further systematic support for our multi-language learners. We ensure to fulfill our Commission Regulations Part 154, but we need to look at some ways to support students as they enter the district, especially at the older grades. So we've implemented a newcomer program for our high school. We have provided support, we've provided curricular supports to help that,
Right now we've actually been reviewing ⁓ with our buildings and how do we enhance our process for multi-language learners and what's working and what's not. Lastly, a couple of years back, we can't forget about our high achievers. So many forget about the ones students are just struggling, but to keep a student engaged, you want to provide those enrichment opportunities. So.
students that score in the upper parts of our screeners. Remember the screeners is your initial data point that you discuss. It's not the everything because we have to use at least two to three data points to triangulate the progress or the lack of progress of a student's learning. So we actually have implemented during our MTSS or WIN periods, what I need now periods as tier two enrichment where students are working on other project-based activities and ⁓
Are there opportunities to expand their learning and writing so we can keep each child engaged and invested in their learning experience?
Antonayah Ellis (15:30)
I am like overwhelmed with information on MTSS. I mean, like I have gone through the process of MTSS as a teacher. I have been, I guess like a listening ear for families in my neighborhood. We are a military family. so family in my neighborhood who know that I used to be a teacher, they'll come to me and share some concerns or, my gosh, it's too much testing. It's too much of this, it's too much that.
It's just nice to know that somebody who holds so much power, like a superintendent, you are so in tune with the systems that are going on in your schools to where it seems like everybody is on one accord. So I just kind of want to give you kudos to that. I am just super enlightened right now, truly. But I am interested in your teacher leaders. How do you go about selecting them? ⁓ Do you have any schools who?
maybe have not gotten to the point in their MTS system to where they are recruiting teacher leaders, how do you get people on board, all of the things.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (16:37)
Well, that's a balance that you have to understand with the teacher leaders. ⁓ We post it, the positions, right? They're teachers and it's an additional stipend within the teacher's contract. We post the positions and people are interested that ⁓ apply. In some cases, if there is an opening, we'll ask people if they're interested. Again, it's their decision to apply. But we also want a balance to make sure that we're, where we are, ⁓
gathering the exact voice of the department. I always caution against leaders because at times when you hear stories of leaders of kind of volunteering people to do these things and that impacts the social capital for those individuals. We want to make sure that we're gathering the insight of what I call the perceived reality, how people are feeling. And that's one of the most important pieces of getting understanding of the
culture of the school and or the department and the grade level. ⁓ And most importantly in our strategic planning and our yearly tactical planning that we call as well is that we have those teacher leaders ⁓ share their voice and a part of the creation of the plan creation, the yearly plan creation process, but also the communication and capacity building for their peers and their colleagues.
So again, you always just fallen with always saying that I have the book over here, the governance core is leading from the middle. It's essential to do that. But with change or anything like that, there's always individuals that will question the change and we have to embrace that and understand that there's reasons behind that. In most cases, leaders come in to a district and they have this next great idea without taking.
to the moment to understand that this idea was implemented 20 years ago but called different. So you want to empathize with those that have been in the school system for some time because they can give you the insight of, here's why it didn't work or why it fell through or was working great, but then the administrator that was really pushing it left. So that's why the innovative systems is so essential. And you mentioned MTSS. MTSS, guess you can say, has been my passion project forever.
because it's our operating system to ensure equitable services for our students and experiences.
Matt Giovanniello (19:06)
I'm taking notes. Sorry, I like your phrase of offering system. ⁓ Patrick, I am equally as taken aback. I'm almost speechless by how well you traverse your districts explanation of MTSS across the tiers and how students move within and without ⁓ tiered supports. You know as their needs change for quick background, we run an MTSS series of professional development sessions for districts that need some help figuring out where their gaps are in MTSS or like what the heck is MTSS.
And not only my PD lead, also our contracted educational service center will be so proud and your consultant at University of Buffalo must be so proud of how well your district took their feedback to heart in implementing MTSS through and through. This is a year long change, as you mentioned, and I just want to underscore a couple of the other district demographics that you have in play at Liberty as well, just for people listening to get a better idea. We're looking at about 1700 students across the district. You have a slightly higher than average, at least for New York State.
multilingual learner population, about 17 % in ⁓ recent reporting, about 15 % special education, which is on state and federal average. But that goes to show you that your needs are diverse. are targeted. You're a targeted district designation. You have high poverty levels. You have a lot of different pieces at play here. And implementing MTSS, just whether it's a passion project or not, is easier said than done. So one, I want to call that out. And two, as we think about these systems change pieces, Antonayah called
out teacher leaders as an effective component of rolling out MTSS with Fidelity, but tell us about some of the other secrets or strategies that you use to get this buy-in to figure out which components of MTSS you're going to start with, what grade levels you're going to begin with, and some of the success stories there as you actually went through the motions. What comes to mind that went particularly well that districts who maybe aren't as far along could benefit from hearing from you?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (20:59)
patience, persistence. Honestly, because one of biggest challenges, we had changes in our building leadership. So taking the time to build them, you have to wait just like what our students for the people to internalize the process and see it through and inquiring about it. Now I've all used all many different strategies, such as even being inspired by ⁓ New York State when they've conducted desk audits on our ESSA funding or title funding.
created desk audits for our buildings to share that doesn't feel intrusive, but it gives us documentation to ask questions and inquire. I think for a district leader, such as myself and our district, know, there's 1,700 students between 1,700 and 1,800 students and, you know, 70 % economically disadvantaged, according to the most recent data that's out there. I think one of our most powerful tool
is our walkthrough and you want to show that these walkthroughs aren't punitive. It's just information gathering for us to ask questions and understand the reality of what's going on with the day to day. And that was inspired and I meet with a group of superintendents throughout the region and I'm always just intrigued by the implementation process and this is not the best example.
But I ⁓ love watching Food That Built America on the History Channel because it's so interesting to know that you can have a enterprise or a branch of an enterprise doing the same thing, maybe a little bit differently on one side of the United States of America and on the other side doing the same thing. So that's the thought process of systematizing innovation, even though each child has their own different needs.
So how do we ensure that the initiatives that we are promoting and reinforcing and have provided coaching and have provided professional learning opportunities are being utilized? And if they're not, why? Don't come to an immediate inference that no one likes it or agrees with it or whatever. Maybe they just don't understand why. So it provides that opportunity to inquire, it's like, hey, I didn't see this happen. Like, do you need something? What's going on?
or always making sure, great job implementing Read 1A. And how's it going? How's it working? So throughout, what we started was with grades five through eight with our middle school with the MTS process, evaluated the elementary school, and they had a strong process and we enhanced it. Our high school principal at the time, who's now our assistant superintendent, revamped and enhanced the
MTSS slash a as pro AIS process at the high school we still need to look at those needs because of the just constraints that a high school generally Would have because I mentioned because of the the regents requirements like to be specific is Focusing on literacy and reading from K through 8 and then kids gets the ninth grade. It's like, ⁓ you know, we're not doing that anymore and I just got to focus on the regions well student
Matt Giovanniello (24:19)
You
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (24:20)
most likely won't be successful in the region exams because they still have learning gaps with regarding to reading. So how do we enhance that? So that's our focus right now. And it's tough because at the high school level, administering a screener from NWA or Renaissance Star is a challenge because it may not seem applicable to the faculty there because of the demands that they have to face in preparation for the English and language arts regions. So that's just something.
As for the systematized tiered interventions, we started with a few grades, grades three, four, and five, because that transition of looking at that analysis from the elementary school to middle school, there was a big drop. But prior to that, fifth grade was using this curriculum. It was all with the common core learning, adapt, adopt, adapt, and everyone adapted and made their own thing. So there was no cohesiveness between the grade levels, no coherence in the learning.
expectations and people were doing their best with the information that they had and we knew that because everyone genuinely cares for the success of our students at Liberty. So it makes me think about when I one time when I went down to ⁓ the Microsoft garage with a group that I met that were ⁓ futurists and looked at innovation and it met Michael Powell who created the PDF who facilitates that.
And he said, sometimes when you're implementing, you have your plan, but you just have to jump in. So we decided to go full steam with the HMH and knew that there was going to be a lot of trials and tribulations. And after a couple of years, ⁓ we've seen some growth. Now, the data is embargoed still with New York State, but we expect to see some growth we haven't seen in our reading scores ⁓ for some time here. And most importantly is staying true to the initiatives.
And when you have a strong percentage that are using the materials and working through that, you will see growth because of just natural coherence and similar practices. ⁓ I'm trying to think. So that's how we implemented those pieces. But most importantly, understanding that we have to continuously evaluate our
our current ⁓ structures and strategies. So that's where we are right now and having conversations with the key teacher leaders and other interventionists to see what is working and how do we have to adapt. In the cone of futuristic planning, an article, and I don't remember the author up top my head from Harvard Business Reviews, when you have strategic planning, you need to reevaluate it every two to three years, even if you have a five-year plan.
because especially with AI and technology things shift so much.
Matt Giovanniello (27:20)
It's moving far too quickly to be able to stick with a plan for five years and expect at this moment in time, you realistically will know what five years from now will look like. That's a really good point. Patrick, I'm continuing to gravitate back towards your phrase earlier of MTSS as "an operating system." I really liked that phrase. I think it speaks to how you personally, and also you leading Liberty think about MTSS as the core component to delivering academics, delivering behavioral interventions, delivering supports under special education, delivering support
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (27:29)
Bye.
Matt Giovanniello (27:50)
under students who are considered multilingual learners, those who are high poverty, those who have socioeconomic problems, and everything in between that I didn't list there, attendance and otherwise. As it relates to that special education component, Patrick, where do you see MTSS either fitting within that or vice versa, special education fitting within what MTSS is to offer of those students who do have disabilities and are receiving services under an IEP or 504? Some district leaders see it as one and the same. Some see it as two very different offerings. Where do you stand on that?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (28:18)
It's all one in the same ⁓ because the tier one strategies that you have to leverage for your students with disabilities is tied into a tier one strategy in every classroom. So for example, if a student that is placed in an integrated co-taught classroom, they should be receiving, not only because the state tells us to, especially designed instruction, right? That's a tier one intervention, but it's also aligned with additional supports.
that are referenced in the individualized education plan. But as I stated before, if a child has skill gaps with their reading skills, they should receive in addition to, now depending on the programming that they're in, right, if they're receiving those, if they're receiving, excuse me, if have those skill gaps, they still should be receiving tier two, tier three based instruction. So for example, if they're having comprehension challenges, they still should have access to the Read 180 platform.
⁓ Students that are, let's say, ⁓ have more severe disabilities or multiple disabilities, they still receive the support, but their teacher that they're in the self-contained room will provide those within the classroom schedule, right? They'll have times for the phonics based because each student needs to read, needs to learn how to read, know how to read, have the phonemic awareness, ⁓ et cetera.
It's definitely ingrained in the multi-language learners as well. That's why, how do we expand that? Because they may be getting the literacy skills, but how could we better get a better systematized grasp of interventions beyond what they're getting in their classrooms and their integrated classrooms and their standalone classrooms for language acquisition skills? And we have to better enhance our system here to do that.
because as you mentioned, we have 17 % multi-language learners of our 1,700 students. So that's definitely a need, and that's definitely something that we want to focus on to support our students to be prepared for the world beyond liberty.
Antonayah Ellis (30:32)
Something I wanted to circle back on I'm in my master's program and I just finished up a class that just centered around trying to get teachers out of the habit of feeling so exposed whenever walkthroughs happen or feedback is given and things of that nature and it really made me reflect on How I hated walkthroughs as a teacher. I would talk to my colleagues and we all hated walkthrough day. I mean and
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (30:48)
Hello.
Antonayah Ellis (31:01)
When I was doing my homework this past week, I'm like, man, what did we hate so much about it? Why did we feel so exposed? ⁓ And it really just had me thinking, I'm like, okay, maybe because I'm just so used to shutting the door and saying, this is my classroom. This is my room. And that is so not the mindset to have as.
As a teacher, it's supposed to be a community space. It's a space for the kids. It's a space for your colleagues. Colleagues should be able to come into your room and learn from you. And teachers should be given that space and opportunity to collaborate and all the things to just get out of feelings. So expose whenever people come into the rooms. And so I'm just interested in how, or how can I phrase this? How do you get your educators out of...
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (31:47)
All right.
Antonayah Ellis (31:50)
that bad habit, feeling exposed, how are you incorporating PLCs whenever they're necessary? What are just some of the processes to get teachers out of those bad habits, those negative feelings?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (32:04)
No, they don't like them, I don't think. It's uncomfortable and I empathize and I get that too, because there's always, especially when you have your superintendent coming in and your assistant superintendent, it's scary no matter what. And when we walk in and we see so many great things and no matter times we tell that, there's also a, ⁓ I guess, I don't know, a subconscious social norm, right? So if a principal or assistant principal says something to a teacher,
And I could say the same thing. There's a different intake of that. There's a different perception. And I empathize and understand that. I didn't like it either as a teacher. And I understand that it may create some discomfort. And it takes time. And people were concerned. And they were worried. And sometimes, I always say, many of our teachers go through. A A professor of mine told me is you learn more from poor leadership than you do effective leadership.
So sometimes, and when you have people, and we have great teachers who've been here and invested in this community for years, sometimes our faculty, our teachers, still have had to persevere through traumatic events from previous leaders. And I understand that. And when some show that they're uncomfortable, and we reinforce, like, we're not trying to got yet. We're not trying to do any of that. I don't know if I could ever change that.
I just have to stay true to always making sure to note the positive. Reinforce, as we know with regulations, even if it's change where, you know, this is not a part of your APPR system, none of this will ever get into an observation or anything of that nature. Because you don't want it. The purpose, even of the walkthrough tools that they have with Marshall or Danielson, the intent of them were never going to be evaluation tools, more of a conversation starting tool. So I don't have an answer or a solution.
Because again, people work hard to plan, to prepare, to support their students, and they're doing their absolutely best each and every day to face, not face, but to support students who come from different backgrounds, who may have some situations that could impact them outside of school, within the school, and you have to be understanding of that. So I don't have any solution.
I'm pretty sure I've never really asked or had in-depth conversations more so than just a couple throughout the years. And I don't think everyone sitting there saying, thank goodness the superintendent's here for a walkthrough and I'm going to get my immediate feedback. No one's saying that. And I understand that. But I can't stress enough, Our intent is to help and gather a different perspective that's aligned with our initiatives.
Matt Giovanniello (34:38)
You
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (34:49)
and the resources that we've provided and the training we've provided. Because sometimes it's like, know, some people are like, that does make sense. Yeah, that's a good thought. And we're pretty consistent of grounding ourselves in specific resources. Let it be Hollinsworth Explicit Direct Instruction. Let it be when we'll teach like a champion, making sure that, you know, the pacing and the curriculum maps that we've, you know, processes we've been working on with a platform called EduPlanet.
that's being leveraged and used so people have an understanding of what they're teaching. because especially for a new teacher, your head is spinning. You have such overload and we do have a mentoring program which is helpful but again, it takes at least five to seven years to feel comfortable in the classroom. It just does. There's a lot of dynamics that you have to navigate through on a good deck.
On a day where everything's running smoothly and then someone, a student may be having a bad day and they won't want to express why and may just not be participating and after you've took all this time. So I'm pretty certain there's still some discomfort when we walk into the room And again, I empathize and understand that, but we have to stay true with our intents to
what we perceive as supporting those around us to ensure that, you know, make sure we're using our HMH curriculum. You know, we're leveraging some of these instructional strategies that support engagement of peer-to-peer interactions, et cetera, turn and talk. So, you know, we can help those around us improve their practices, but also it has to be a two-way conversation.
tell, and I try not to forget, but I always tell new teachers, you're coming into this district with a new perspective. You know, I've been a Liberty for 10 years. Sometimes we get stuck in our ways. So if you see something or something that we're doing that you think can give some input to enhance it or make it better, share it. We embrace that. don't, you know, I know, know, tenure is always a hot topic. Pretty much. It doesn't matter that you're tenured or not. We still want to hear your thoughts because
you might have seen something in another district that really helped that district implement and enhance their practices with the practice that you've witnessed elsewhere.
Matt Giovanniello (37:22)
Right, and I think, Patrick, a few things. The first, the fact that you're admitting you don't have all the answers is refreshing and honest, and I think that walkthroughs, whether they're hated, like in Antonayah, your perspective when you were a teacher,
or still not loved but understood a little bit better, Patrick, is a step in the right direction. And it adds a humanizing element of I am here as your superintendent to give feedback, not to drop the hammer on you, but there's constructive criticism to be given every which way. And that's not a bad thing. I think that's a really good perspective to have. And speaking of good perspectives and new perspectives, this is a topic change, but it's making me think back to something we were talking about before you started, Patrick, in relation to new ideas coming in from new teachers.
and even from tenure teachers, I know you sit on a committee for AI and bringing it into school districts all across New York State, and among the school superintendents, you are leading the charge there. So tell us a little bit more about how you leverage opportunities in communities like those to bring new ideas and also in the wave of AI, new technologies into your district. I know we have a couple mutual friends from my Long Island roots who are on this committee also. Tell us more about what that looks like.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (38:30)
Well, I mean, it is a great experience for myself to learn from colleagues throughout the state of what they're using and what they're leveraging. because we all go on certain paths of gathering information, right? For myself, ⁓ I don't know, once you read one educational book, you feel like you read them all as you start seeing Piaget, Dewey, Vygotsky, et cetera, you know, and it's great. And you want to embrace it and understand it.
But I try to find myself to look outward into other fields to stay relevant, so to speak. But with that, I'm always reading The Economist, Harvard Business Review, other fields research to understand how they're leveraging AI. We have it in our schools, but the goal is to prepare students to use it in any endeavors that they may have. So in conversations I have with colleagues, tools, tips,
implementation processes, guides to enhance our practices is always at the forefront in our conversation. Some of the colleagues that you mentioned before that I love hearing the items they're exploring and actually Jared, he shared a resource that enhanced our ability to analyze data. ⁓
It was, and since we're a Google school, the Ellen notebook, and he shared it at a session I attended at our fall conference. And so I was like, huh, how can I use AI to check the coherence of the work? So I'm to plug in our strategic plan, our yearly district plan, and this building plan. And then I'm going to take our walkthrough data and ask it to crosswalk it and see where we are. if everything we're doing is in line and is our
Because we read it, we create our walkthrough look for us. And it was, and it gave us the progress. Now, if I didn't gather that new learning from Jared, I wouldn't have had that resource. And so in our district instructional leadership team meeting with our building administrators and our district level administrators, Assistant Superintendent Dr. Derek Adams and I shared this process with them.
and had them doing it specifically with their buildings. So it creates that efficiency. So how do we leverage that more? So when AI was just coming out, I I was reading about it before a chat GPT hit the world. We shared background and information and capabilities of what it could be. And I actually conducted the PD session for our teaching teams on a conference day.
Most importantly, we wanted to follow regulations as you know, to find something that's EdLaw 2D compliant. So we have identified it our resources, we've built capacity for our faculty and staff to leverage it, to show the efficiencies. Now if we show that this can help you, right, but you don't just cut and paste, you have to evaluate it, right? And that's a whole new skill set that we need for ourselves and those around us to internalize. And our next steps where we're not
just yet we're in the process is how do we create ⁓ a process to help our students leverage it, keeping in mind of the skills they need before leveraging it, because they have to be able to evaluate not only the content, but the output of what's in writing. They have to understand this grammar, the sentence structure, and the reliability of it.
So that's something that we're having to look at. We're not there yet. But I've reached out to colleagues throughout the region that maybe are there and looking at a process where they spoke to families, they spoke to students, teachers, to gather that 360 degree perspective all around us. ⁓ So that's really just an important item because we want our students to have a strong understanding of what it is.
To do that, they need to understand coding and the language behind the ⁓ AI tool that they use. And they'd also have to understand that each AI tool may have a bias depending on who programmed it, right? So they have to think deeper than it's just an easy tool that makes life better. They have to understand the intent behind it or the reason behind its creation, right? Going into the research component. So we started ⁓ a coding class
with Siena College in our high school to start giving that. And we've implemented a Wazette. But in time, we hope to have a course strictly on AI and giving the credential on digital security and the importance of digital privacy in your identity online. So that's such an important life skill that students need. So where I'm going with this is trying to gather a perspective. I'm fortunate enough to have a student liaison group that I meet with every month. And I still have it up in my office.
So I wanted to see what their personal practices are with artificial intelligence. So I asked them, and I can see the questions from here. I have to read it. Think about your future. What is the skill you'd want us, the school, to help you with? And then what can we do to help you with using AI in school? What is one way we can help you become a better communicator? And if we could add a new club or course to help you with your future and the items we referenced, what would it be?
students and we may create a student liaison group. try to create a diverse group to get all voice from our student population. And they've answered it. We compiled it and we'll circle back at the next meeting. So right now we really want to know how can we better support our students to prepare and how can they leverage AI with a critical lens to help them be better students, right? And better learners, so to speak, because that's what we're creating. We're not creating students, we're creating learners.
And at a conference I went to ⁓ with a regional group that I was part of, it showed a video of a college student preparing to go somewhere and they were studying and asking for mnemonics and other acronyms to help them remember in preparation for a test with AI. Matt Galvin that you mentioned, he was talking about at our AI committee how if you think of Jarvis and Iron Man, right?
That's what AI is going to be. Each student, his vision, and I think he's really, he's onto something, is that each student's going to have their own AI personal system to help them navigate through school and ask those questions. And I think, I think he really is, is on target with what the future entails with the use of AI in schools.
Matt Giovanniello (45:26)
I love that example. I do think he's onto something. And I think you are too, Patrick. The fact that you are actively soliciting input from your students to know, if we were to create a class, what would it look like and how does it accomplish the goals that as a high schooler you find yourself facing right now in the very fast changing world and wave of AI is a really interesting and refreshing take. It's like, again, you don't have the answers and neither do your admins or your teachers. Let's look to the next generation to figure out how we can best support them.
because this world is changing way faster than any of us can keep track of. Those examples are so cool. And when you have your next meeting, we need to circle back so I can hear some of those answers. I'd be very curious to know what your students are responding with. My guess is there will be some similarities, but I can see students taking that a bazillion different directions because similar to us when we were in their shoes, they don't know what college is like yet, and they're trying to be prepared skills wise. And I think that once they reach that and they look back, maybe their answers would be a little bit different. But naivety is good thing. Let's see what they have to say. I'm very, very curious.
Patrick, yeah, please do. ⁓ Patrick, we are reaching the end of our time. This was an enlightening conversation and one that went way, way, way too fast. But I do have one more question for you that we'd love to close out each of our episodes by asking our guests. If you'd like to take a moment to reflect on it, please go ahead and do so. Patrick, our final question, our final question for you is what does being an exceptional educator or being an exceptional leader mean to you?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (46:27)
Exactly, yes.
It means to embrace systematic innovation to support exceptional students and educators.
Matt Giovanniello (47:07)
That was so well put, so succinct and is exactly what you've been preaching throughout this entire episode. So I think that makes you exceptional, but even more importantly, I think it makes the leaders throughout Liberty Central and also your educators and your students in the community at large exceptional as well. think that it's really awesome for me to see and Antonayah, I bet you agree as well. Like, I feel like I went on this journey with you today, Patrick, of what things looked like when you first stepped into your position, but also what like looked like before it. Not a lot of administrators have been with a tenure like yours, Patrick.
to know what life looked like before they stepped into a current role, to speak to like where we came from, where we are, where we're going to be with such detail. And it was just, it was a really fun journey to be along. And I'm just, rooting for what the end of this school year will look like for you all and what these school years to come look like, because there's just so much potential and so much promise and I can't wait for your kids to experience it.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (47:59)
Me too, thank you. It's exciting. It's always an exciting day. and exciting opportunity.
Matt Giovanniello (48:04)
for Absolutely! Antonayah, any closing remarks as we wrap up?
Antonayah Ellis (48:09)
Just one, I also want to know what your high schoolers, what type of feedback they give you, because I want to know how many of them want help with AI and becoming content creators. So many of the kids out here are like, I want to stream, I want to TikTok, I want to YouTube. So I'm so, so intrigued to see how many students are going to want you guys to help them with that career path. So please.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (48:28)
I know I asked my son like what do want to be MLB player? Okay in reality a youtuber
Antonayah Ellis (48:37)
He's a dreamer either way.
Matt Giovanniello (48:37)
You're going to be breeding You'll be breeding a generation of TikTokers and you might be scared by the results. That is hilarious. Patrick, thank you again for joining us today on this episode of the Exceptional Educators podcast. It was truly such an honor, such a pleasure to have you here. For all of us listening to today's episode of the Exceptional Educators podcast, thank you for joining us and we look forward to seeing you at the next one. All right, cut.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (48:44)
Very true.
Thank you so much.
Matt Giovanniello (49:03)
Patrick, thank you. All right, I'm leaving this running for one more minute. I feel like we've run a little bit over, but this was just really, this was such a great conversation. Let's get to that piece of, hi, I'm Dr. Patrick Sullivan, your introduction. If you want me to run through all of those instructions for you again, I'm happy to, but whenever you're ready, just run with it and then we'll take this part out and we'll put it alongside those other introduction pieces. So your name.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (49:10)
good.
Do I have to do my piece? I did the embrace piece that you wanted me to do at the end. Do I do it again or?
Matt Giovanniello (49:29)
Yeah, hit that for me once more because then we'll stitch it together like with your name, your title, and your district. Sweet, whenever you're ready.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (49:35)
Okay. Hello, name is Dr. Patrick Sullivan. I'm the superintendent for Liberty Central School District in Sullivan County, New York, and I embrace systematic innovation to support exceptional students and educators.
Matt Giovanniello (49:51)
There we go. I love it. Perfect. Perfect. You are going to be the model.
Welcome to the Exceptional Educators podcast by FrenalyticsEDU, where innovation meets inclusion in education. I'm your co-host, Antonayah Ellis.
Matt Giovanniello (00:10)
and I'm Matt Giovanniello, the CEO and Co-Founder of Frenalytics. At Frenalytics, we put special education and English language learners front and center. Our award-winning FrenalyticsEDU platform helps streamline progress monitoring, improve communication and compliance, and offers truly personalized learning to your students of all abilities.
Antonayah Ellis (00:29)
Each episode of our podcast features candid conversations with district and school leaders, classroom changemakers, ed tech founders, and industry executives, all dedicated to transforming learning for each student, especially our learners with unique abilities. With a focus on extraordinary educators and the exceptional students they serve, we explore the latest in special education, accessible technology, and inclusive leadership. In this episode, exceptional educators is exceptionally thrilled to welcome Dr. Patrick Sullivan.
Superintendent of Liberty Central School District in Sullivan County, New York. Since 2021, he's been leading the district through a major transformation from implementing a compressive or comprehensive, oh my gosh, comprehensive multi-tiered system of supports to building inclusive programs for multilingual and special education students. With a background from teaching, student services and district leadership, Dr. Sullivan brings both heart and strategy to improving outcomes for every learner.
Welcome to the podcast, Patrick. We're so happy to have you.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (01:32)
Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.
Antonayah Ellis (01:35)
So we like to start off our podcast pretty much the same, probably a question you've heard a thousand times. What is your why? What has brought you to education and what keeps you in this space?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (01:46)
Well, prior to education, was actually in the business world. I worked for Citibank for some time and then coming from a family of educators. And I always say that it was my point of rebelling against my parents. My mother was a school administrator. My father was a teacher. And after a couple of years of realizing that working in the leasing industry didn't fulfill my why as a person. So ultimately,
⁓ Supporting those around you is the basis of my why, but again, most importantly, and through the lens of leadership is, and I love Simon Sinek's work with this, we've all, know, leaders eat last and such. ⁓ But ultimately, as a leader, ⁓ the why is to create innovative systems to support each and every person that's part of that system in one way or another.
And having that why to do that is to create opportunity. Opportunity that those around us don't realize yet maybe that they have this opportunity. So opening those doors is the most fulfilling experience for anyone in the field of education.
Matt Giovanniello (03:10)
I love your why, Patrick. And I think it speaks to the heart of educators and administrators everywhere that there's so much fulfillment in this work. Not everybody is in it just for the money. I think rarely people are, but there's so much more to it than just that financial component that lets you walk away and feel good about the work that you're doing and affecting such change for our next generation of learners. I think you point out a really important piece, and it's something that adds Antonayah introduced you to speaks to the heart of your work at Liberty Central, which is
building those supports for students who so desperately need it that maybe traditionally have slipped through the cracks a little bit over the years, over the past couple of decades. What I'm alluding to is your transformational change around MTSS. So walk us through the past couple of years of what your implementation strategy for your multi-tiered systems of support have looked at across the district, what considerations you've had and where you stand right now and what work is still left to do.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (04:04)
So Liberty began their journey of multi-tiered systems of support model back in 2017. Prior to that was RTI. When I first joined Liberty as the Assistant Director of Student Services, I noticed a systematic need. We weren't implementing a formidable systems of support.
So created an RTI task force with multiple stakeholders to identify our needs. But luckily at the time, New York State was providing an opportunity for, I don't want say it was a monetary grant, but it was a grant of services, knowledge, and professional learning with the New York State Response to Intervention Technical Assistance Center when it was with SUNY Buffalo. So we had a wonderful consultant that worked with us who worked for a local college with Mount St. Mary College, Dr. Joan Miller.
So she expanded our understanding of what an MTSS system looks like from exemplars from throughout the state and from other states. We get caught up with what's in New York. I believe it was Georgia had four tiers. Imagine like four tiers. What is four tiers? It's supposed to be three, but just looking at things from a different perspective. So with that, we build a leadership team. And I was mostly working with our middle school at the time because that's where the need was.
Because of the regulatory requirements for an RTI model, the elementary school was in a pretty solid place. And a high school, no matter where you are, ⁓ a high school model was always a challenge in secondary schools because of the regions-based requirements, the testing requirements, and those standardized assessments that students need to graduate. So we went through a process to build capacity
with the middle school and get an understanding and create a succinct implementation plans and goals for each year. We evaluated our current screener. How are we using that? And we noticed that the screener didn't have a progress monitoring tool. So we conducted pilots. We evaluated multiple screeners. And we...
identified one that we no longer use and that's a whole other story and that's where sometimes certain changes of resources impact your behaviors depending on what partners you have in working in school systems. But during that time we administered perception surveys, we reviewed our current screener data that we were, ⁓ the data from our current screener at that time that we had.
And we work to build capacity for the faculty of the middle school. What is MTSS? And what is the purpose behind it? And what does it look like? And let it be of implementing and introducing a post benchmark data analysis protocol and walking the faculty through that process and the building leadership at the time.
Identifying and explaining what progress monitoring is and synergizing all that together of what's our purpose. But looking at the need of the district and of that building, we had to identify manageable data cut points to work from because, you know, for years our proficiency rates were in the mid 25%. So looking at the pyramid in general, there was more of a need of what the system can currently handle. So
What we did is we evaluated the whole system, we looked at our structures, and I'll get into that next, and then which strategies will we leverage. So, and I can go on a lot with this because it's been, as you can see, almost 10 years of work that we've been doing this. So we looked at what our schedule provides and created specific, now people call them WIN periods. We had an MTSS period. We wanted to adjust the schedule to get more students access to the interventions.
Then at that time as well, if a student was receiving what was noted as AIS services, that student would be in that service all year, in that class all year. So that student will meet its market proficiency while you have other students still just getting tier one support and not being moved into ⁓ classrooms or intervention based classrooms.
for additional supports that help them grow. So we created a more fluid system. So each student is getting what they need. The notion then was that if you were a student with disability in IEP or if you're a multi-language learner, you didn't get those services because you had services through the student services offices and with the multi-language learners or the L's at the time as terms have shifted. So we changed that.
these students need support with reading as well. So we made sure that those students received intervention services as well. So as I moved up throughout the district and as assistant superintendent and as we started getting traction to middle school, we started evaluating the other schools, the elementary school and the high school. Now I was not the assistant superintendent when we started this. I was either the assistant principal, the middle school or the assistant director, but
Kind of what I call the reverse ripple effect, right? So was kind of pushing those above me that we need to do this to support our students to keep this initiative moving forward. we all know that it takes time for a culture shift. It takes, they say, three to five years. But sometimes it takes more, especially when there's transition and leadership roles and having new faculty members come in, people retiring, things of et cetera.
Filing that we created our MTSS plan is the framework and wanted to balance a district-wide structure and framework, but giving the building some autonomy within that. So each building has created their own plan, which goes to some work that we're doing that aligns with the district process.
In our evaluations, and this is when I was assistant superintendent, we would start our vertical articulation meetings and would meet with our teacher leaders from K through six and then seven through 12 to identify what do we need. And this was around the 2020-2021 school year. And after identifying the common needs, after we analyzed state data, screener data, what standards are we struggling the most?
regarding mathematics and with reading. But there is also a social emotional executive functioning components as well. So where we are today, and I'll bring it all to where we are, is we identified that we needed to systematize our interventions and our tier one, tier two, and tier three interventions. Because
We wanted to ensure that if a student was in third grade and was having a struggle with some type of, with a specific skill that they weren't reaching a standard, they had the same similar programming from one grade to the next. Cause if they, when we say graduate or move out of getting tier one and tier two services and just receiving tier one, let's say in third or fourth grade and they move to the next grade and they're having a challenge because rigor increases on the demands of the new standards that need to be addressed. ⁓
We wanted the students not to learn a different program. We wanted them just to focus on what they needed to learn to be better at their reading and to close those skill gaps. And so that was one indicator to systematically align our interventions for tier one. so what we did is we implemented HMH curriculum into reading into math system, excuse me, read 180, and then read 180 code, which is system 44. And then we have into math.
And that was done in a collaborative way of working with our teacher leaders and our teacher teams to identify which curriculum. And ultimately, the implementation process is always a challenge. So to help us systematize implementation, we created an effective implementation protocol to give a structure of making sure that we're having check-ins, we're building capacity, we're evaluating. And then as a result, and to make sure that it's happening, district administration and all administrators conduct walk-throughs.
to ensure what we've invested our time and energy and built capacity on is being implemented in ways that we can support better implementation and other supports to reflect. So as we've been implementing this in this curriculum for some time and the interventions, we had to shift back to the old screener. We had to shift to another progress monitoring type tool. And that's still been a challenge for us is the progress monitoring piece, because it is very extract to people.
that points in time to have that every couple weeks to check in to assess where the student is and then the transition and important to have a transition process from a student that's receiving these tier two interventions just to receive tier one and not tier one and tier two and tier three. So we took part in that but the MTSS system isn't just academics and it kind of ties into some other items that we can touch upon.
is we found a graphic in Ed Week years ago of a multi-triangle diagram that looks to not only support academic needs, but also the social-emotional needs. So we implemented an SEL screener. We have different levels based as the screener and our post-benchmark protocols for social-emotional needs. And there's other data points that we reference of a student needs counseling all the way up to tier three, which would be a behavior intervention plan of some sort. On top of that,
We identified, and this is really where we're hyper-focused right now, is further systematic support for our multi-language learners. We ensure to fulfill our Commission Regulations Part 154, but we need to look at some ways to support students as they enter the district, especially at the older grades. So we've implemented a newcomer program for our high school. We have provided support, we've provided curricular supports to help that,
Right now we've actually been reviewing ⁓ with our buildings and how do we enhance our process for multi-language learners and what's working and what's not. Lastly, a couple of years back, we can't forget about our high achievers. So many forget about the ones students are just struggling, but to keep a student engaged, you want to provide those enrichment opportunities. So.
students that score in the upper parts of our screeners. Remember the screeners is your initial data point that you discuss. It's not the everything because we have to use at least two to three data points to triangulate the progress or the lack of progress of a student's learning. So we actually have implemented during our MTSS or WIN periods, what I need now periods as tier two enrichment where students are working on other project-based activities and ⁓
Are there opportunities to expand their learning and writing so we can keep each child engaged and invested in their learning experience?
Antonayah Ellis (15:30)
I am like overwhelmed with information on MTSS. I mean, like I have gone through the process of MTSS as a teacher. I have been, I guess like a listening ear for families in my neighborhood. We are a military family. so family in my neighborhood who know that I used to be a teacher, they'll come to me and share some concerns or, my gosh, it's too much testing. It's too much of this, it's too much that.
It's just nice to know that somebody who holds so much power, like a superintendent, you are so in tune with the systems that are going on in your schools to where it seems like everybody is on one accord. So I just kind of want to give you kudos to that. I am just super enlightened right now, truly. But I am interested in your teacher leaders. How do you go about selecting them? ⁓ Do you have any schools who?
maybe have not gotten to the point in their MTS system to where they are recruiting teacher leaders, how do you get people on board, all of the things.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (16:37)
Well, that's a balance that you have to understand with the teacher leaders. ⁓ We post it, the positions, right? They're teachers and it's an additional stipend within the teacher's contract. We post the positions and people are interested that ⁓ apply. In some cases, if there is an opening, we'll ask people if they're interested. Again, it's their decision to apply. But we also want a balance to make sure that we're, where we are, ⁓
gathering the exact voice of the department. I always caution against leaders because at times when you hear stories of leaders of kind of volunteering people to do these things and that impacts the social capital for those individuals. We want to make sure that we're gathering the insight of what I call the perceived reality, how people are feeling. And that's one of the most important pieces of getting understanding of the
culture of the school and or the department and the grade level. ⁓ And most importantly in our strategic planning and our yearly tactical planning that we call as well is that we have those teacher leaders ⁓ share their voice and a part of the creation of the plan creation, the yearly plan creation process, but also the communication and capacity building for their peers and their colleagues.
So again, you always just fallen with always saying that I have the book over here, the governance core is leading from the middle. It's essential to do that. But with change or anything like that, there's always individuals that will question the change and we have to embrace that and understand that there's reasons behind that. In most cases, leaders come in to a district and they have this next great idea without taking.
to the moment to understand that this idea was implemented 20 years ago but called different. So you want to empathize with those that have been in the school system for some time because they can give you the insight of, here's why it didn't work or why it fell through or was working great, but then the administrator that was really pushing it left. So that's why the innovative systems is so essential. And you mentioned MTSS. MTSS, guess you can say, has been my passion project forever.
because it's our operating system to ensure equitable services for our students and experiences.
Matt Giovanniello (19:06)
I'm taking notes. Sorry, I like your phrase of offering system. ⁓ Patrick, I am equally as taken aback. I'm almost speechless by how well you traverse your districts explanation of MTSS across the tiers and how students move within and without ⁓ tiered supports. You know as their needs change for quick background, we run an MTSS series of professional development sessions for districts that need some help figuring out where their gaps are in MTSS or like what the heck is MTSS.
And not only my PD lead, also our contracted educational service center will be so proud and your consultant at University of Buffalo must be so proud of how well your district took their feedback to heart in implementing MTSS through and through. This is a year long change, as you mentioned, and I just want to underscore a couple of the other district demographics that you have in play at Liberty as well, just for people listening to get a better idea. We're looking at about 1700 students across the district. You have a slightly higher than average, at least for New York State.
multilingual learner population, about 17 % in ⁓ recent reporting, about 15 % special education, which is on state and federal average. But that goes to show you that your needs are diverse. are targeted. You're a targeted district designation. You have high poverty levels. You have a lot of different pieces at play here. And implementing MTSS, just whether it's a passion project or not, is easier said than done. So one, I want to call that out. And two, as we think about these systems change pieces, Antonayah called
out teacher leaders as an effective component of rolling out MTSS with Fidelity, but tell us about some of the other secrets or strategies that you use to get this buy-in to figure out which components of MTSS you're going to start with, what grade levels you're going to begin with, and some of the success stories there as you actually went through the motions. What comes to mind that went particularly well that districts who maybe aren't as far along could benefit from hearing from you?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (20:59)
patience, persistence. Honestly, because one of biggest challenges, we had changes in our building leadership. So taking the time to build them, you have to wait just like what our students for the people to internalize the process and see it through and inquiring about it. Now I've all used all many different strategies, such as even being inspired by ⁓ New York State when they've conducted desk audits on our ESSA funding or title funding.
created desk audits for our buildings to share that doesn't feel intrusive, but it gives us documentation to ask questions and inquire. I think for a district leader, such as myself and our district, know, there's 1,700 students between 1,700 and 1,800 students and, you know, 70 % economically disadvantaged, according to the most recent data that's out there. I think one of our most powerful tool
is our walkthrough and you want to show that these walkthroughs aren't punitive. It's just information gathering for us to ask questions and understand the reality of what's going on with the day to day. And that was inspired and I meet with a group of superintendents throughout the region and I'm always just intrigued by the implementation process and this is not the best example.
But I ⁓ love watching Food That Built America on the History Channel because it's so interesting to know that you can have a enterprise or a branch of an enterprise doing the same thing, maybe a little bit differently on one side of the United States of America and on the other side doing the same thing. So that's the thought process of systematizing innovation, even though each child has their own different needs.
So how do we ensure that the initiatives that we are promoting and reinforcing and have provided coaching and have provided professional learning opportunities are being utilized? And if they're not, why? Don't come to an immediate inference that no one likes it or agrees with it or whatever. Maybe they just don't understand why. So it provides that opportunity to inquire, it's like, hey, I didn't see this happen. Like, do you need something? What's going on?
or always making sure, great job implementing Read 1A. And how's it going? How's it working? So throughout, what we started was with grades five through eight with our middle school with the MTS process, evaluated the elementary school, and they had a strong process and we enhanced it. Our high school principal at the time, who's now our assistant superintendent, revamped and enhanced the
MTSS slash a as pro AIS process at the high school we still need to look at those needs because of the just constraints that a high school generally Would have because I mentioned because of the the regents requirements like to be specific is Focusing on literacy and reading from K through 8 and then kids gets the ninth grade. It's like, ⁓ you know, we're not doing that anymore and I just got to focus on the regions well student
Matt Giovanniello (24:19)
You
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (24:20)
most likely won't be successful in the region exams because they still have learning gaps with regarding to reading. So how do we enhance that? So that's our focus right now. And it's tough because at the high school level, administering a screener from NWA or Renaissance Star is a challenge because it may not seem applicable to the faculty there because of the demands that they have to face in preparation for the English and language arts regions. So that's just something.
As for the systematized tiered interventions, we started with a few grades, grades three, four, and five, because that transition of looking at that analysis from the elementary school to middle school, there was a big drop. But prior to that, fifth grade was using this curriculum. It was all with the common core learning, adapt, adopt, adapt, and everyone adapted and made their own thing. So there was no cohesiveness between the grade levels, no coherence in the learning.
expectations and people were doing their best with the information that they had and we knew that because everyone genuinely cares for the success of our students at Liberty. So it makes me think about when I one time when I went down to ⁓ the Microsoft garage with a group that I met that were ⁓ futurists and looked at innovation and it met Michael Powell who created the PDF who facilitates that.
And he said, sometimes when you're implementing, you have your plan, but you just have to jump in. So we decided to go full steam with the HMH and knew that there was going to be a lot of trials and tribulations. And after a couple of years, ⁓ we've seen some growth. Now, the data is embargoed still with New York State, but we expect to see some growth we haven't seen in our reading scores ⁓ for some time here. And most importantly is staying true to the initiatives.
And when you have a strong percentage that are using the materials and working through that, you will see growth because of just natural coherence and similar practices. ⁓ I'm trying to think. So that's how we implemented those pieces. But most importantly, understanding that we have to continuously evaluate our
our current ⁓ structures and strategies. So that's where we are right now and having conversations with the key teacher leaders and other interventionists to see what is working and how do we have to adapt. In the cone of futuristic planning, an article, and I don't remember the author up top my head from Harvard Business Reviews, when you have strategic planning, you need to reevaluate it every two to three years, even if you have a five-year plan.
because especially with AI and technology things shift so much.
Matt Giovanniello (27:20)
It's moving far too quickly to be able to stick with a plan for five years and expect at this moment in time, you realistically will know what five years from now will look like. That's a really good point. Patrick, I'm continuing to gravitate back towards your phrase earlier of MTSS as "an operating system." I really liked that phrase. I think it speaks to how you personally, and also you leading Liberty think about MTSS as the core component to delivering academics, delivering behavioral interventions, delivering supports under special education, delivering support
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (27:29)
Bye.
Matt Giovanniello (27:50)
under students who are considered multilingual learners, those who are high poverty, those who have socioeconomic problems, and everything in between that I didn't list there, attendance and otherwise. As it relates to that special education component, Patrick, where do you see MTSS either fitting within that or vice versa, special education fitting within what MTSS is to offer of those students who do have disabilities and are receiving services under an IEP or 504? Some district leaders see it as one and the same. Some see it as two very different offerings. Where do you stand on that?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (28:18)
It's all one in the same ⁓ because the tier one strategies that you have to leverage for your students with disabilities is tied into a tier one strategy in every classroom. So for example, if a student that is placed in an integrated co-taught classroom, they should be receiving, not only because the state tells us to, especially designed instruction, right? That's a tier one intervention, but it's also aligned with additional supports.
that are referenced in the individualized education plan. But as I stated before, if a child has skill gaps with their reading skills, they should receive in addition to, now depending on the programming that they're in, right, if they're receiving those, if they're receiving, excuse me, if have those skill gaps, they still should be receiving tier two, tier three based instruction. So for example, if they're having comprehension challenges, they still should have access to the Read 180 platform.
⁓ Students that are, let's say, ⁓ have more severe disabilities or multiple disabilities, they still receive the support, but their teacher that they're in the self-contained room will provide those within the classroom schedule, right? They'll have times for the phonics based because each student needs to read, needs to learn how to read, know how to read, have the phonemic awareness, ⁓ et cetera.
It's definitely ingrained in the multi-language learners as well. That's why, how do we expand that? Because they may be getting the literacy skills, but how could we better get a better systematized grasp of interventions beyond what they're getting in their classrooms and their integrated classrooms and their standalone classrooms for language acquisition skills? And we have to better enhance our system here to do that.
because as you mentioned, we have 17 % multi-language learners of our 1,700 students. So that's definitely a need, and that's definitely something that we want to focus on to support our students to be prepared for the world beyond liberty.
Antonayah Ellis (30:32)
Something I wanted to circle back on I'm in my master's program and I just finished up a class that just centered around trying to get teachers out of the habit of feeling so exposed whenever walkthroughs happen or feedback is given and things of that nature and it really made me reflect on How I hated walkthroughs as a teacher. I would talk to my colleagues and we all hated walkthrough day. I mean and
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (30:48)
Hello.
Antonayah Ellis (31:01)
When I was doing my homework this past week, I'm like, man, what did we hate so much about it? Why did we feel so exposed? ⁓ And it really just had me thinking, I'm like, okay, maybe because I'm just so used to shutting the door and saying, this is my classroom. This is my room. And that is so not the mindset to have as.
As a teacher, it's supposed to be a community space. It's a space for the kids. It's a space for your colleagues. Colleagues should be able to come into your room and learn from you. And teachers should be given that space and opportunity to collaborate and all the things to just get out of feelings. So expose whenever people come into the rooms. And so I'm just interested in how, or how can I phrase this? How do you get your educators out of...
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (31:47)
All right.
Antonayah Ellis (31:50)
that bad habit, feeling exposed, how are you incorporating PLCs whenever they're necessary? What are just some of the processes to get teachers out of those bad habits, those negative feelings?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (32:04)
No, they don't like them, I don't think. It's uncomfortable and I empathize and I get that too, because there's always, especially when you have your superintendent coming in and your assistant superintendent, it's scary no matter what. And when we walk in and we see so many great things and no matter times we tell that, there's also a, ⁓ I guess, I don't know, a subconscious social norm, right? So if a principal or assistant principal says something to a teacher,
And I could say the same thing. There's a different intake of that. There's a different perception. And I empathize and understand that. I didn't like it either as a teacher. And I understand that it may create some discomfort. And it takes time. And people were concerned. And they were worried. And sometimes, I always say, many of our teachers go through. A A professor of mine told me is you learn more from poor leadership than you do effective leadership.
So sometimes, and when you have people, and we have great teachers who've been here and invested in this community for years, sometimes our faculty, our teachers, still have had to persevere through traumatic events from previous leaders. And I understand that. And when some show that they're uncomfortable, and we reinforce, like, we're not trying to got yet. We're not trying to do any of that. I don't know if I could ever change that.
I just have to stay true to always making sure to note the positive. Reinforce, as we know with regulations, even if it's change where, you know, this is not a part of your APPR system, none of this will ever get into an observation or anything of that nature. Because you don't want it. The purpose, even of the walkthrough tools that they have with Marshall or Danielson, the intent of them were never going to be evaluation tools, more of a conversation starting tool. So I don't have an answer or a solution.
Because again, people work hard to plan, to prepare, to support their students, and they're doing their absolutely best each and every day to face, not face, but to support students who come from different backgrounds, who may have some situations that could impact them outside of school, within the school, and you have to be understanding of that. So I don't have any solution.
I'm pretty sure I've never really asked or had in-depth conversations more so than just a couple throughout the years. And I don't think everyone sitting there saying, thank goodness the superintendent's here for a walkthrough and I'm going to get my immediate feedback. No one's saying that. And I understand that. But I can't stress enough, Our intent is to help and gather a different perspective that's aligned with our initiatives.
Matt Giovanniello (34:38)
You
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (34:49)
and the resources that we've provided and the training we've provided. Because sometimes it's like, know, some people are like, that does make sense. Yeah, that's a good thought. And we're pretty consistent of grounding ourselves in specific resources. Let it be Hollinsworth Explicit Direct Instruction. Let it be when we'll teach like a champion, making sure that, you know, the pacing and the curriculum maps that we've, you know, processes we've been working on with a platform called EduPlanet.
that's being leveraged and used so people have an understanding of what they're teaching. because especially for a new teacher, your head is spinning. You have such overload and we do have a mentoring program which is helpful but again, it takes at least five to seven years to feel comfortable in the classroom. It just does. There's a lot of dynamics that you have to navigate through on a good deck.
On a day where everything's running smoothly and then someone, a student may be having a bad day and they won't want to express why and may just not be participating and after you've took all this time. So I'm pretty certain there's still some discomfort when we walk into the room And again, I empathize and understand that, but we have to stay true with our intents to
what we perceive as supporting those around us to ensure that, you know, make sure we're using our HMH curriculum. You know, we're leveraging some of these instructional strategies that support engagement of peer-to-peer interactions, et cetera, turn and talk. So, you know, we can help those around us improve their practices, but also it has to be a two-way conversation.
tell, and I try not to forget, but I always tell new teachers, you're coming into this district with a new perspective. You know, I've been a Liberty for 10 years. Sometimes we get stuck in our ways. So if you see something or something that we're doing that you think can give some input to enhance it or make it better, share it. We embrace that. don't, you know, I know, know, tenure is always a hot topic. Pretty much. It doesn't matter that you're tenured or not. We still want to hear your thoughts because
you might have seen something in another district that really helped that district implement and enhance their practices with the practice that you've witnessed elsewhere.
Matt Giovanniello (37:22)
Right, and I think, Patrick, a few things. The first, the fact that you're admitting you don't have all the answers is refreshing and honest, and I think that walkthroughs, whether they're hated, like in Antonayah, your perspective when you were a teacher,
or still not loved but understood a little bit better, Patrick, is a step in the right direction. And it adds a humanizing element of I am here as your superintendent to give feedback, not to drop the hammer on you, but there's constructive criticism to be given every which way. And that's not a bad thing. I think that's a really good perspective to have. And speaking of good perspectives and new perspectives, this is a topic change, but it's making me think back to something we were talking about before you started, Patrick, in relation to new ideas coming in from new teachers.
and even from tenure teachers, I know you sit on a committee for AI and bringing it into school districts all across New York State, and among the school superintendents, you are leading the charge there. So tell us a little bit more about how you leverage opportunities in communities like those to bring new ideas and also in the wave of AI, new technologies into your district. I know we have a couple mutual friends from my Long Island roots who are on this committee also. Tell us more about what that looks like.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (38:30)
Well, I mean, it is a great experience for myself to learn from colleagues throughout the state of what they're using and what they're leveraging. because we all go on certain paths of gathering information, right? For myself, ⁓ I don't know, once you read one educational book, you feel like you read them all as you start seeing Piaget, Dewey, Vygotsky, et cetera, you know, and it's great. And you want to embrace it and understand it.
But I try to find myself to look outward into other fields to stay relevant, so to speak. But with that, I'm always reading The Economist, Harvard Business Review, other fields research to understand how they're leveraging AI. We have it in our schools, but the goal is to prepare students to use it in any endeavors that they may have. So in conversations I have with colleagues, tools, tips,
implementation processes, guides to enhance our practices is always at the forefront in our conversation. Some of the colleagues that you mentioned before that I love hearing the items they're exploring and actually Jared, he shared a resource that enhanced our ability to analyze data. ⁓
It was, and since we're a Google school, the Ellen notebook, and he shared it at a session I attended at our fall conference. And so I was like, huh, how can I use AI to check the coherence of the work? So I'm to plug in our strategic plan, our yearly district plan, and this building plan. And then I'm going to take our walkthrough data and ask it to crosswalk it and see where we are. if everything we're doing is in line and is our
Because we read it, we create our walkthrough look for us. And it was, and it gave us the progress. Now, if I didn't gather that new learning from Jared, I wouldn't have had that resource. And so in our district instructional leadership team meeting with our building administrators and our district level administrators, Assistant Superintendent Dr. Derek Adams and I shared this process with them.
and had them doing it specifically with their buildings. So it creates that efficiency. So how do we leverage that more? So when AI was just coming out, I I was reading about it before a chat GPT hit the world. We shared background and information and capabilities of what it could be. And I actually conducted the PD session for our teaching teams on a conference day.
Most importantly, we wanted to follow regulations as you know, to find something that's EdLaw 2D compliant. So we have identified it our resources, we've built capacity for our faculty and staff to leverage it, to show the efficiencies. Now if we show that this can help you, right, but you don't just cut and paste, you have to evaluate it, right? And that's a whole new skill set that we need for ourselves and those around us to internalize. And our next steps where we're not
just yet we're in the process is how do we create ⁓ a process to help our students leverage it, keeping in mind of the skills they need before leveraging it, because they have to be able to evaluate not only the content, but the output of what's in writing. They have to understand this grammar, the sentence structure, and the reliability of it.
So that's something that we're having to look at. We're not there yet. But I've reached out to colleagues throughout the region that maybe are there and looking at a process where they spoke to families, they spoke to students, teachers, to gather that 360 degree perspective all around us. ⁓ So that's really just an important item because we want our students to have a strong understanding of what it is.
To do that, they need to understand coding and the language behind the ⁓ AI tool that they use. And they'd also have to understand that each AI tool may have a bias depending on who programmed it, right? So they have to think deeper than it's just an easy tool that makes life better. They have to understand the intent behind it or the reason behind its creation, right? Going into the research component. So we started ⁓ a coding class
with Siena College in our high school to start giving that. And we've implemented a Wazette. But in time, we hope to have a course strictly on AI and giving the credential on digital security and the importance of digital privacy in your identity online. So that's such an important life skill that students need. So where I'm going with this is trying to gather a perspective. I'm fortunate enough to have a student liaison group that I meet with every month. And I still have it up in my office.
So I wanted to see what their personal practices are with artificial intelligence. So I asked them, and I can see the questions from here. I have to read it. Think about your future. What is the skill you'd want us, the school, to help you with? And then what can we do to help you with using AI in school? What is one way we can help you become a better communicator? And if we could add a new club or course to help you with your future and the items we referenced, what would it be?
students and we may create a student liaison group. try to create a diverse group to get all voice from our student population. And they've answered it. We compiled it and we'll circle back at the next meeting. So right now we really want to know how can we better support our students to prepare and how can they leverage AI with a critical lens to help them be better students, right? And better learners, so to speak, because that's what we're creating. We're not creating students, we're creating learners.
And at a conference I went to ⁓ with a regional group that I was part of, it showed a video of a college student preparing to go somewhere and they were studying and asking for mnemonics and other acronyms to help them remember in preparation for a test with AI. Matt Galvin that you mentioned, he was talking about at our AI committee how if you think of Jarvis and Iron Man, right?
That's what AI is going to be. Each student, his vision, and I think he's really, he's onto something, is that each student's going to have their own AI personal system to help them navigate through school and ask those questions. And I think, I think he really is, is on target with what the future entails with the use of AI in schools.
Matt Giovanniello (45:26)
I love that example. I do think he's onto something. And I think you are too, Patrick. The fact that you are actively soliciting input from your students to know, if we were to create a class, what would it look like and how does it accomplish the goals that as a high schooler you find yourself facing right now in the very fast changing world and wave of AI is a really interesting and refreshing take. It's like, again, you don't have the answers and neither do your admins or your teachers. Let's look to the next generation to figure out how we can best support them.
because this world is changing way faster than any of us can keep track of. Those examples are so cool. And when you have your next meeting, we need to circle back so I can hear some of those answers. I'd be very curious to know what your students are responding with. My guess is there will be some similarities, but I can see students taking that a bazillion different directions because similar to us when we were in their shoes, they don't know what college is like yet, and they're trying to be prepared skills wise. And I think that once they reach that and they look back, maybe their answers would be a little bit different. But naivety is good thing. Let's see what they have to say. I'm very, very curious.
Patrick, yeah, please do. ⁓ Patrick, we are reaching the end of our time. This was an enlightening conversation and one that went way, way, way too fast. But I do have one more question for you that we'd love to close out each of our episodes by asking our guests. If you'd like to take a moment to reflect on it, please go ahead and do so. Patrick, our final question, our final question for you is what does being an exceptional educator or being an exceptional leader mean to you?
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (46:27)
Exactly, yes.
It means to embrace systematic innovation to support exceptional students and educators.
Matt Giovanniello (47:07)
That was so well put, so succinct and is exactly what you've been preaching throughout this entire episode. So I think that makes you exceptional, but even more importantly, I think it makes the leaders throughout Liberty Central and also your educators and your students in the community at large exceptional as well. think that it's really awesome for me to see and Antonayah, I bet you agree as well. Like, I feel like I went on this journey with you today, Patrick, of what things looked like when you first stepped into your position, but also what like looked like before it. Not a lot of administrators have been with a tenure like yours, Patrick.
to know what life looked like before they stepped into a current role, to speak to like where we came from, where we are, where we're going to be with such detail. And it was just, it was a really fun journey to be along. And I'm just, rooting for what the end of this school year will look like for you all and what these school years to come look like, because there's just so much potential and so much promise and I can't wait for your kids to experience it.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (47:59)
Me too, thank you. It's exciting. It's always an exciting day. and exciting opportunity.
Matt Giovanniello (48:04)
for Absolutely! Antonayah, any closing remarks as we wrap up?
Antonayah Ellis (48:09)
Just one, I also want to know what your high schoolers, what type of feedback they give you, because I want to know how many of them want help with AI and becoming content creators. So many of the kids out here are like, I want to stream, I want to TikTok, I want to YouTube. So I'm so, so intrigued to see how many students are going to want you guys to help them with that career path. So please.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (48:28)
I know I asked my son like what do want to be MLB player? Okay in reality a youtuber
Antonayah Ellis (48:37)
He's a dreamer either way.
Matt Giovanniello (48:37)
You're going to be breeding You'll be breeding a generation of TikTokers and you might be scared by the results. That is hilarious. Patrick, thank you again for joining us today on this episode of the Exceptional Educators podcast. It was truly such an honor, such a pleasure to have you here. For all of us listening to today's episode of the Exceptional Educators podcast, thank you for joining us and we look forward to seeing you at the next one. All right, cut.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (48:44)
Very true.
Thank you so much.
Matt Giovanniello (49:03)
Patrick, thank you. All right, I'm leaving this running for one more minute. I feel like we've run a little bit over, but this was just really, this was such a great conversation. Let's get to that piece of, hi, I'm Dr. Patrick Sullivan, your introduction. If you want me to run through all of those instructions for you again, I'm happy to, but whenever you're ready, just run with it and then we'll take this part out and we'll put it alongside those other introduction pieces. So your name.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (49:10)
good.
Do I have to do my piece? I did the embrace piece that you wanted me to do at the end. Do I do it again or?
Matt Giovanniello (49:29)
Yeah, hit that for me once more because then we'll stitch it together like with your name, your title, and your district. Sweet, whenever you're ready.
Dr. Patrick Sullivan (49:35)
Okay. Hello, name is Dr. Patrick Sullivan. I'm the superintendent for Liberty Central School District in Sullivan County, New York, and I embrace systematic innovation to support exceptional students and educators.
Matt Giovanniello (49:51)
There we go. I love it. Perfect. Perfect. You are going to be the model.
