Leading with Learner Variability in San Diego Schools

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Hi, this is Aurora from the Educating All Learners Alliance,
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and today we're speaking to Andrea Pino-Antl and Jenny Chen for a deep dive
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into school leadership.
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Andrea is the principal of Creative Performing and Media Arts,
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a magnet middle school in San Diego, California, that allows students to seize
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their creativity in the classroom.
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And Jenny Chen is the principal of Casita Center, an IB school with a STEM focus,
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also located in San Diego. So it's so great to have both of you on the podcast, Jenny and Andrea.
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We've both been part of the EALA ecosystem for a while. So to get us started,
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tell us a little bit about your school communities.
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What makes your school unique? What's a bright spot or something that you're
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particularly proud of right now?
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Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Pino-Antl, and I'm the proud principal of the Creative
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Performing Media Arts Middle School in San Diego Unified School District.
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We're a six through eight arts magnet school, and all our students engage in
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arts curriculum every day.
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And we embed arts integration into our core academic classes as well.
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One of the major focuses that we've been working on and really focused on is
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in improving our academics as well and really focused on what effective teaching practices look like.
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We are excited because we've seen growth and we grew in every demographic area
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last year on our dashboard.
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And one area that I'm insanely proud of is our school culture.
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So when I got here, we had like a 15% suspension rate. It was rough.
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And we're down to like 1%. So we are making a huge, huge change in the culture.
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Students feel safe. And now I want to capitalize on that and increase the learning in the classroom.
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I'm Jenny Chen. I'm the principal of Casita Center.
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We are an IB World School with a STEM focus, and we are a magnet school as well.
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So we service our kindergarten through fifth graders. We have about 740-ish
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students, and we draw from all over our district as well as neighboring districts,
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and it creates a really beautiful community.
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Something I'm most proud of at our school is similar to Andrea is our culture.
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I feel like we have a learning culture where our teachers are constantly learning
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and growing and figuring out how to evolve our programming that will be tailored
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to our students and making sure that we are removing barriers and keeping learning
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exciting and relevant for them.
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And I think that, you know, if we didn't have our staff wanting to do that,
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we would not be continuously evolving. So I'm very proud of them.
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And it's great to be amongst colleagues that want to do this work with our learners.
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I love that. And Hila had a chance to visit both of your schools,
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I think, during our inaugural school study tours. And I remember seeing.
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Such interesting things at both of your schools, truly, like your schools really do stand out.
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And it's great to have you part back in the EALAverse, back in the EALA ecosystem
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as part of this cohort of school leaders as part of our All Learners Action Lab.
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You both have some interesting insights around math in particular, math instruction.
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It's always a subject that students or even teachers can, you know,
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folks struggle with that fixed mindset. So tell us a little bit about,
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and I'll start with you, Jenny.
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Can you tell us more about what approaches you're taking when it comes to math
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at your school and what's truly working for your students?
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Yeah, no, thank you. It's always, you know, it's exciting to kind of see innovation happening.
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But you also want to make sure we're offering quality math instruction.
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And so we constantly analyze our math teaching and learning approaches and our
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data that would work alongside with it.
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And our data really kind of spoke that, you know, we are a higher performing
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school. We're doing well.
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Obviously, there are areas that we can work on in math instruction.
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But one of the areas that we had to kind of dig deeper with was this idea of
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our learners and how they see themselves as math people, as a math person.
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And even though our kids were higher performing, they didn't see themselves
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as math people. They had math anxiety and, you know, it felt they felt a certain way about it.
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And so we had to kind of tease out that piece and figure out as a staff,
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are we cultivating experiences in math where it is engaging and they can see
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themselves as math people?
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And is it helping them build their self-confidence? So about three years ago,
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using that as the impetus, we really tried to dig into different strategies
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that would make math more engaging, but still fostering thinking skills and that rigor and depth.
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So we started our journey by looking at low floor, high ceiling approaches and
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bringing back number talks and evolving it to dot talks and splat and all these other experiences.
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We started digging into the React Math.
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So that was that whole year just doing staff meetings as professional development, engaging in math.
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Then the following year, which was last year, we started realizing that we needed more modeling.
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And so we had one of our teachers that was at our school, she got promoted to
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being a math chosen in our district. So we booked her for three days out of the month, every month.
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And she basically modeled lessons for our teachers, our ed specialists,
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to show how that would be facilitated so the teachers could see that modeling
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and do some shoulder-to-shoulder coaching as well.
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So that really kind of helped move things along. And then this year,
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we're working with an organization called Math Transformations that are helping
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us kind of plan out using our district-adopted curriculum, but all the other
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resources and helping us plan more of a scope and sequence. So we're still on that journey.
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We're also seeing that, you know, other teachers might need more support.
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And so we're scaffolding some of the supports and kind of tuning in to what
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they need and tailoring it to the teacher's needs so that they're able to facilitate
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and feel comfortable with shifting their pedagogy. So it's definitely been a journey.
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But like I said, I'm super grateful that sometimes you're flying the plane as you're building it.
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So it kind of feels like that at times. And it could feel very frustrating.
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And I want to honor that feeling with our teachers.
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But I'm grateful that they're, you know, working on trying to build that plane
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while they're flying it.
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And we're, you know, going through the trenches and figuring out what works best for our students.
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I get inspired listening to all the things that Jenny and her school are doing
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and, you know, so many ideas.
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So one of the things that I notice heavily when we return, you know,
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from COVID, a lot of, you know, we're a one-to-one school district.
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A lot of our classrooms were looking like computer labs, walk in to computer lab.
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The teacher is really facilitating, but not in the facilitating the way that
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we really want to see them facilitating student agency.
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So for the last two years, one of our instructional focus is student agency in the classroom.
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And so that's one of the things that Jenny and I really connected on is like,
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how are we going to see student learning happening in the classroom?
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And specifically in math, because they need to be engaged. And when a student
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just sees it on a screen and they don't get feedback, they're not truly engaged in it.
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In that activity. So we have, we use the Amplify Desmos curriculum,
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the district adopted it, and we were part of the early adopters at our school.
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So we had some support from our school district in terms of mentors and lesson
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studies and getting our team to work together to really take this online curriculum,
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but how do we make it visible and how do we make it engaging for the kids?
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So I've been working with our teachers on those teacher moves.
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Like, yes, it's an online platform, but that doesn't mean that that's what the
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student should be doing at all times. Like it can be removed from the computer.
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Let's get them learning and really focused on the depth of knowledge.
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So I know that Jenny mentioned that earlier when we were introducing our schools
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is really knowing that we want our students to take that content and apply it
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to other things. And the way that we do that is through arts integration.
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So we have actually a math lab classroom that we set up that doesn't have any chairs.
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And the students go in and they can do kinesthetic movement and learning to
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go with their math curriculum.
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And our math teachers also go into the art lab and they do their arts instruction.
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So that's another way to get the students using what they're learning in a tangible and a visible way.
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It hasn't been easy. I mean, we also, as my teachers, are receiving sixth graders.
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So we're sixth through eight.
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This year specifically, 90 of our 153 sixth graders were testing on iReady diagnostic
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multiple grade levels below standard, right?
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So we also have to recognize like we are teaching the standards,
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but we also have how are we systematically supporting our students to improve
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and fill in the gaps of learning.
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And so we, you know, part of the technology pieces is I want them off the computer.
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With the curriculum and doing collaborative and engaging lessons where they're
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active and they're learning with each other.
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But then I'm asking them to do, we're using iReady MyPath to fill in for that tier two instruction.
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So the teachers are right now balancing that technology aspect of,
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we don't want them so much in front of the computer because we want them to
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be agents of their learning and collaborating with each other.
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And using language and helping each other understand.
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But then we also want them to access this tool because with the number of students
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that have learning gaps, we want to use that to our advantage.
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So we're growing and we are hoping to see some fruits of our labor.
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I used to think that when teachers verbalized barriers, that it was a bad thing,
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right? Like, I'm not doing something right as a leader.
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They couldn't do it. And like, I just kind of, I didn't want any of that.
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I didn't want to, like, I didn't want to hear it. I didn't, you know,
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but I think in the last few years, especially this year, I'm really seeing that
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that's really an opportunity, right?
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So if teachers didn't want to do something, they probably wouldn't say anything
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and just like close their doors.
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But the fact that they're sharing some of their barriers out loud,
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whether in a small group, individual, or as a whole staff, I think is really
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valuable information. And I really have been leaning into it and leveraging
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that in how to inform next steps.
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So one of the strategies that I really have appreciated and we've really embraced
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is the numberless word problems in math.
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And so we modeled it.
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We had students or we had teachers open up their classrooms so that other teachers
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can go in. We cover classes.
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But, you know, even then, we still had some teachers that, you know, were hesitant to try it.
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And one of the teachers who was a seasoned teacher on campus,
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she said, I tried it, but I just did a whole group, which kind of defeated the
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purpose a little bit, you know, and at first I was like, okay,
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why did she not do it that way, you know, but then I said, you know what, it's okay,
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that's part of her journey of where she needed to go in order to get to,
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you know, to eventually get to where she needed to go. So I really took time
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to listen to that feedback.
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And we opened it up in her grade level to kind of unpack why she felt that way.
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And her fear was that she would lose control of the class, you know,
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if we did this numberless, small groups, random groups, type of approach.
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And so her colleague was the one who said, you know, why don't you instead of
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doing random groups initially, why don't you start with, you know,
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doing intentional groups.
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And then you train up the kids with the protocol and the expectation,
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call out, you know, all the great thinking that's happening.
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And then eventually you can maybe move into random grouping.
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And so I like that moment of just a teacher being vulnerable enough to share
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her barrier and having kind of a think tank amongst her team and then being
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able to kind of work through that. It was just really beautiful to see.
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I think that as a leader, it's scary at times to hear why someone can't do something.
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But I also think like they're saying something and it's they're voicing their
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concerns and we have to kind of walk through it with them so that they can eventually
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get to where they need to.
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But it's it's not it's not this linear line of like, OK, you're going to go from point A to point B.
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It's more like this like mumble jumble in the beginning or in the middle where
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you're trying to figure it out.
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And then eventually you'll get, you know, to where you need to.
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But you kind of have to walk through it.
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And part of that journey and that process is what makes it a beautiful way to help shift pedagogy.
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How are you ensuring at your school that students with learning differences are.
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Are at the heart and not an afterthought in terms of your school's structure and culture.
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That has been a huge focus for my school.
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We have a lot of different programs. We have different self-contained versus
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inclusion programs at our school, and it's just a non-negotiable for me.
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We're still trying to fine tune of what it looks like, but because every kid
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is different, every kid needs something different.
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We really have done some maybe not traditional things.
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For instance, like we have a student who is in eighth grade that maybe is a
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third grade level for math, also has an IEP.
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Instead of struggling through, we provide a totally different math experience for that student.
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That student's with an ed specialist for math instruction that has a math credential.
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And that student is, that's, we want the learning experience to be positive
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and not a painful experience where they're going to fail.
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And so we are trying these alternative settings for students that is as inclusive
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as possible, but meets their needs.
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Because we want learning to be enjoyable and be a lifelong experience and not
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feel like they're going to fail.
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I have a similar philosophy. I, you know, I definitely, we were trying to strengthen,
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our tier one so that it can be more inclusive of all learners and entry points for them.
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And so like the numberless word problems, for example, that I referred to before,
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we wanted to make sure that all students had access to that.
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So how do we, and it really breaks down the language of a word problem for our
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students to really unpack that and develop conceptual understanding before they
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get into the calculation piece, the computation.
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And so we really had to, before we just jump into tier three or tier two,
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we really wanted to make sure that it was accessible with our tier one.
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And then within our classrooms, we do do a lot of small groups or conferencing
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with our students so that they're able to get their needs met,
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whether through different manipulatives, different types of approaches.
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And we also try to memorialize on our walls that we value different approaches
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so that it's also a mindset shift for our community and our classrooms that,
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you know, there isn't just one way and the right way to do it,
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but there's different ways.
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You get your answer, but there's always different ways and we value all of them.
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And then, of course, our ed specialists working on tier threes are working closely
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with our teachers to make sure that we help remove the barriers.
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We've had a lot of conversations about accommodations versus modifications and
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making sure, like you said, Andrea, that the supports are appropriate for the kids.
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It's not just a bank of, here are all the math things that we can put into a
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plan, but we want to make sure they are appropriate to that child.
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So it is, I think as educators, you're just trying to be more intentional when
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you service our students and helping them meet their needs and remove those barriers.
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And I'd like to add, too, like, I think more than ever, as educators,
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we understand that every student is unique.
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I do, you know, there used to be, like, this is how we learn.
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And if they don't get it, I don't know what to do with them, right?
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So I think more than ever, our teachers understand that every student approaches
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things differently. And I do see that being valued in the classroom.
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And that's a huge shift for me, even though it might not be a standard that
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I can check or something on my dashboard, right? Like I do, but I do think that
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the parents and the students feel that and they, that makes them want to come
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to school and, and that's important.
00:16:48.183 --> 00:16:53.463
And they, and we embrace fully like our continuum of services.
00:16:53.823 --> 00:16:57.943
So if, you know, we have, we have the whole continuum of services.
00:16:58.103 --> 00:17:01.343
I think the only program we do not have on our campus is deaf and hard of hearing.
00:17:02.323 --> 00:17:06.903
We have every other one. So we can, any student comes to our school,
00:17:07.083 --> 00:17:08.143
we feel confident that we can
00:17:08.143 --> 00:17:14.263
support them. and we will work together as a team to find where they fit.
00:17:14.423 --> 00:17:19.023
So that means we might have some students that are extensive support needed
00:17:19.023 --> 00:17:23.383
students that are in more gen ed classes. And it's.
00:17:24.905 --> 00:17:29.625
It is like tailored to their needs or a student who is mild mod but might be
00:17:29.625 --> 00:17:35.585
in a math class in the census support needs program because that's what they need or a student who is,
00:17:36.645 --> 00:17:41.665
severely autistic and then and takes one class in our autistic program and the
00:17:41.665 --> 00:17:46.005
rest in our gen ed right like we are doing that as much as we can to be responsive
00:17:46.005 --> 00:17:52.325
um to where they so that they can feels successful so that behaviors or disability is not,
00:17:52.585 --> 00:17:56.425
is being removed as a barrier as much as possible to their learning.
00:17:56.645 --> 00:18:00.385
And like, that's, that's been our goal. And I think like, that is something
00:18:00.385 --> 00:18:05.365
I'm super proud of at our school, that we do support all students as best as
00:18:05.365 --> 00:18:09.785
we can. And I think, I think we're doing okay. I haven't got many complaints lately.
00:18:10.005 --> 00:18:13.005
So that's, that's where I go from, right? Like parents are happy.
00:18:13.225 --> 00:18:17.685
And, and we honestly had a, have a waiting list for our extensive support needs
00:18:17.685 --> 00:18:21.525
program at our school. So that's exciting. Yeah, that's wonderful.
00:18:22.405 --> 00:18:25.385
Well, we're at our last question for today.
00:18:26.605 --> 00:18:30.545
Leadership can feel overwhelming. I don't need to tell you that, right?
00:18:30.825 --> 00:18:34.345
We know school leadership can feel overwhelming. What's one piece of advice
00:18:34.345 --> 00:18:38.525
you might want to give a principal who maybe they're listening and they want
00:18:38.525 --> 00:18:40.945
to make a difference and they don't know where to start?
00:18:41.245 --> 00:18:43.845
What's one piece of advice you would give?
00:18:44.935 --> 00:18:49.275
Okay. So I, you know, it's funny, I was just talking to somebody about this
00:18:49.275 --> 00:18:54.235
yesterday and I, I wish, I mean, I do,
00:18:54.595 --> 00:18:58.755
I I'm super grateful for the program that I went through to get my admin credential
00:18:58.755 --> 00:19:02.075
and love the mindset that they provided.
00:19:02.555 --> 00:19:12.475
I do wish that this idea of how to influence your campus was a part of that
00:19:12.475 --> 00:19:14.915
conversation because you,
00:19:15.175 --> 00:19:19.075
I kind of had to figure that part out is you could have the best ideas.
00:19:19.495 --> 00:19:23.915
You could be so research-based. You could be well-read. Like you could be all the great things.
00:19:24.135 --> 00:19:27.955
You could like, you know, work on operations and you're an instructional lead.
00:19:28.055 --> 00:19:32.235
But if you don't know how to influence, you don't have impact.
00:19:32.475 --> 00:19:39.235
And so I think for me, advice for other leaders kind of stepping into this world
00:19:39.235 --> 00:19:43.395
is making sure that you know your players.
00:19:43.455 --> 00:19:47.195
So on your staff, who are your early implementers?
00:19:47.315 --> 00:19:51.035
Always willing to try things out. You can use them as lighthouse teachers.
00:19:51.375 --> 00:19:57.495
Who are your influencers who, if they try something, they will spread things very quickly?
00:19:57.915 --> 00:20:03.295
Who are your are teachers who are tried and true, but they really lean into
00:20:03.295 --> 00:20:04.595
more traditional methods.
00:20:04.975 --> 00:20:09.715
And, you know, how do you, like, how do they learn and what motivates them?
00:20:09.855 --> 00:20:13.455
So you have to know your players, you have to know your team,
00:20:13.695 --> 00:20:18.015
and you have to know your community, and then be able to leverage those relationships
00:20:18.015 --> 00:20:23.375
and what you know and those strengths to move and make impact in your community.
00:20:23.475 --> 00:20:27.155
I think that is the one thing that I think I was never taught and I had to really
00:20:27.155 --> 00:20:33.895
pick up that has helped me shift and transform school.
00:20:35.051 --> 00:20:42.031
Yeah. And exactly. I think Jenny hit that on the head as well is the idea that
00:20:42.031 --> 00:20:46.771
you have to come in and, and yes, it's, it's going slow to go fast.
00:20:46.951 --> 00:20:51.751
And I think the, the unifying factor for me is I, I rely heavily on vision.
00:20:51.991 --> 00:20:55.451
Like I'm a vision person. If I don't have a vision or a framework or a pathway,
00:20:55.691 --> 00:21:00.351
like I even get, you know, a little bit stuck. So it's the horse and the rider,
00:21:00.671 --> 00:21:03.491
it's the rider and the elephant from a switch.
00:21:04.211 --> 00:21:08.751
It's the idea of if I want my teachers to go somewhere, like I want to provide
00:21:08.751 --> 00:21:10.631
that path for them to get there on their own,
00:21:10.871 --> 00:21:15.651
they are going to do better and they're going to be more engaged and more bought
00:21:15.651 --> 00:21:22.031
in if they are riding the elephant, if they are taking that idea forward themselves
00:21:22.031 --> 00:21:25.491
because they were shown a vision of the path that they're going to go.
00:21:25.651 --> 00:21:28.411
So, you know, we did a lot of work. like Jenny, when you mentioned like that
00:21:28.411 --> 00:21:30.911
first year of like just PDs, like that's what we did.
00:21:30.991 --> 00:21:35.211
And we learned, we defined everything from what is collaboration? What is creativity?
00:21:35.451 --> 00:21:37.811
Like, these are the things that we want to see in our classrooms.
00:21:37.931 --> 00:21:39.511
So how are we going to get there?
00:21:39.731 --> 00:21:46.071
And so it was that collaborative, that team spirit of we can do this and we're
00:21:46.071 --> 00:21:47.531
going to have the best school in the universe.
00:21:47.991 --> 00:21:51.511
They didn't, a lot of them didn't believe me. And now they come to me and they're
00:21:51.511 --> 00:21:53.791
like, thank you for saving our school.
00:21:54.131 --> 00:21:58.491
Like they have seen it and they're bought in and now it's like hey we are gonna
00:21:58.491 --> 00:22:01.891
have at our school we are an arts integration school.
00:22:02.631 --> 00:22:05.951
A math class is gonna look different here than anywhere else in our district
00:22:05.951 --> 00:22:10.811
and they're embracing that and and so it's it's leading them to believe um that
00:22:10.811 --> 00:22:12.951
they can giving them the tools to get there.
00:22:13.878 --> 00:22:17.798
And for a lot of our teachers, what are the arts? I'm a math person.
00:22:18.038 --> 00:22:22.238
How do I, right? So we do, and we've also adopted a series of,
00:22:22.338 --> 00:22:24.198
we're all learners. We're all going to be artists.
00:22:24.418 --> 00:22:26.518
So we do a monthly arts workshop.
00:22:26.818 --> 00:22:28.778
We paint for Thanksgiving.
00:22:29.458 --> 00:22:33.718
We learn how to paint pumpkins and do contour drawings. The amount of teachers
00:22:33.718 --> 00:22:38.658
that are still talking about that PD and how they felt successful,
00:22:38.658 --> 00:22:42.098
that translates into what they can offer their kids in the classroom.
00:22:42.098 --> 00:22:46.678
So it is like knowing who your students are, which are students, teachers,
00:22:46.958 --> 00:22:52.398
I'm still a teacher, and really getting them behind the vision and really having
00:22:52.398 --> 00:22:56.538
that vision, setting that vision together as a community, and then feeling that
00:22:56.538 --> 00:22:58.758
team effort to move forward. So, yeah.
00:22:59.598 --> 00:23:03.478
Thank you both so much for your insights, for your time, your energy, your expertise.
00:23:03.478 --> 00:23:07.818
It's no easy feat to get two principals together in the middle of the school
00:23:07.818 --> 00:23:12.098
day, right before testing, right during testing. So, Jenny and Andrea,
00:23:12.418 --> 00:23:16.978
thank you so much on behalf of our listeners. It's been great chatting with you today.
00:23:17.838 --> 00:23:21.418
Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you so much for having us.
00:23:22.498 --> 00:23:25.758
That's it for us today, folks. Thank you to Andrea and Jenny.
00:23:25.998 --> 00:23:37.138
And to learn more about their schools, visit cpma.sandiegounified.org and cas.vistausd.org.
00:23:37.138 --> 00:23:41.138
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast
00:23:41.138 --> 00:23:43.318
platform and follow us on social media.
00:23:43.778 --> 00:23:46.918
I'm Aurora from EALA, and this was a deep dive into school leadership.